The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1994/giwer_controv_9405


 R_9405 
+++ r_940527 +++ --- *FIDO AUTO* ---
From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (8)
To:      All                                    15 May 94 02:14:10
Subject: 00:  ultimatum                         

     The problem with Linda Thompson's plan is that it is 
tactically infeasable.  Any number of people to have an effect 
that might make the DC local news can not get any place near the 
White House or Congress before troops from three bases and two 
police departments converge on them.  The nearest place is about 
two miles if you are a crow and 2.5 if you have to walk.  They 
will have to walk.  

     It is called for a Monday morning in the middle of rush 
hour.  It is the unrealized dream of dozens of protest marches to 
create a traffic jam during rush hour.  It is not a feasible 
activity.  

     Their only hope is for some variation upon a Mouse That 
Roared scenario.

     The call for carrying arms makes they liable to police 
arrest in both Virginia and DC.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (12)
To:      Paul West                              15 May 94 02:00:10
Subject: 01: Ultimatum                          

PW>  JB>  Agreed, but I think that Ms.  Thompson's actions are going 
PW>  JB>  to be very harmful  for those of us still using the 
PW>  JB>  peaceful ballot-box method.

PW>  Ms Thompson claims that elections are fixed.  I have 
PW>  thought the opinion polls were fixed but the vote?  It is 
PW>  my opinion that if Ms Thompson goes through with her 
PW>  threat, the very next day Congress will be repealing the 
PW>  2nd Amendment.  :(

     Which would only speed the present agenda and the time table 
for the revolution.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (13)
To:      Linda Terrell                          15 May 94 02:04:10
Subject: 01: Ultimatum                          

LT> PW>    It is my opinion that if Ms Thompson goes through with 
LT> PW>  her threat, the very next day Congress will be repealing 
LT> PW>  the 2nd Amendment.  :(

LT>     fortunately, you cannot "repeal" an amendment, and 
LT>  certainly Congress alone cannot.  You have to *Amend* an 
LT>  amendment and 2/3 of the states have to ratify it.

     Even harder, 3/4.  The problem is the explicit effort to 
get around it.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (15)
To:      All                                    10 May 94 17:29:10
Subject: 10th Amendment Resolution              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: BEN DELISLE
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 05/07/94 - 0003096
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0754 - Privacy-U
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Newsgroups: seattle.general,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.clinton,alt.politics.libertarian,pnw.general,talk.politics.drugs,misc.ta
From: delisle@eskimo.com (Ben Delisle)
Subject: 10th Amendment Resolution Reiteration. A Bill in WA State.
Date: Sat, 7 May 1994 06:49:12 GMT

    This bill will be proposed in the Washington State Senate
at the beginning of the next session. A similar bill will go in to the 
State House. I received this copy of this bill from State Senator
Linda Smith of the 18th Legislative District. This is an Important
bill, consider something similar in your State, If all the States
passed this bill it would send a message to the federal government. 
    Begin>
                           --- *** ---
This measure would declare the state's sovereignty under the 10th
Amendment to the United States Constitution and demand that the 
federal government cease and desist mandates that are beyond the 
scope of constitutionally delegated powers.

    WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United
States reads as follow: 
    "The powers not delegated to the United States by the
Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to
the States respectively, or to the people", and

    WHEREAS, The 10th Amendment defines the total scope of federal
power as being that specifically granted by the Unites States 
Constitution and no more; and

    WHEREAS, The scope and power defined by the 10th Amendment 
means that the federal government was created by the States 
specifically to be an agent of the States; and
    
    WHEREAS, Today, in 1994, the States are demonstrably treated
as agents of the federal government; and

    WHEREAS, Numerous resolutions have been forwarded to the federal
federal government by the Washington Legislature without any
response or result from Congress or the federal government; and

    WHEREAS, Many federal mandates are directly in violation of
the 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States; and

     WHEREAS, The United States Supreme Court has ruled in New York
vs. United States, 112 S. Ct. 2408 (1992), that Congress may not 
simply commandeer the legislative and regulatory process of the 
States; and

    WHEREAS, A number of proposals from previous administrations 
and some now pending from the present administration and from
Congress may further violate the United States Constitution; now,
therefore, be it

    ____Resolved_by_the_Senate_and_House_of_Representatives_of_
Washington,_jointly,___ that the State of Washington hereby claims
sovereignty under that 10th Amendment to the Constitution of the 
United States over all powers not otherwise enumerated and granted
to the federal government by the United States Constitution and 
that this measure shall serve as notice and demand to the federal
government,  as  our  agent,  to  cease  and  desist,  effective
immediately,  mandates  that  are  beyond  the  scope  of  its 
constitutionally delegated powers; and be it further

    ___Resolved,___ That the Secretary of the Senate transmit copies
of this resolution to the President and Vice President of the United
States, the Speaker of the House of Representatives, the President
pro Tempore of the  United  States  Senate, each  Senator and 
Representative from Washington in the Congress of the Unites States
and to the Speaker of the House and President of the Senate of each
legislature in the United States of America.

                         ---   ***   ---

--
delisle@eskimo.com


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (16)
To:      Jim Higgins                            15 May 94 02:47:10
Subject: 10th Ammendment Bills                  

JH> PJ>  Nothing in any other medium up here either.  I am surprised 
JH> PJ>  that the "Ultimatum" hasn't picked up any interest either.

JH>  Didn't your sensei tell you?...  don't convey your intent 
JH>  until you are ready to act upon it, then let it be a 
JH>  surprise.

     Instead convey the intention of a different action.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (20)
To:      William Childress                      20 May 94 02:24:10
Subject: 77 Scholars           1/3              

WC>          Good, then you'll agree that the people who 
WC>  witnessed these miracles are in an excellent position to 
WC>  document them.  And, correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the 
WC>  N.T.  penned by more than one individual? In fact, all the 
WC>  documents weren't even penned in the same geographical 
WC>  location or during the very same period of time.  
WC>  Considering this fact, I submit that the harmony between 
WC>  them is nothing short of miraculous.

     Considering not one word was written by an eye-witness the 
repetition of stories by word of mouth is not exciting.

WC>          As for you, are you bothered by the miracles more 
WC>  than the rigid moral standard?  In essence, why one causes 
WC>  you the most concern?

     I would point out the recounting of Timothy mentions no 
miracles whatsoever.  Of course that account is the oldest and 
just missed mentioning them.  

WC>          Of course, I could make the very same claim 
WC>  regarding to the scientific calculations which establish 
WC>  the distances to the stars.  I wonder if you accepted those 
WC>  without questioning their validity?  If you did, then you 
WC>  might ask yourself why?

     The method used is fully disclosed and verifiable and 
repeatable.  Not so for miracles.

WC>          There are many people today who believe that Jesus 
WC>  Christ is God incarnate.  I certainly believe it!  In 
WC>  addition, I've never come across anything that compares to 
WC>  the wisdom revealed in the pages of the Bible.

     He never made the claim.  He said repeatedly he was the son 
of man.  Are you calling him a liar?

WC>          Did anyone ever provide testimony that Elvis raised 
WC>  someone from the dead?   Who watched Elvis heal a blind 
WC>  man? Did Elvis ever claim to be the Messiah?  Did Elvis 
WC>  ever offer words of such profound wisdom that millions of 
WC>  people will frame their life around them in two thousand 
WC>  year's time?

     If we throw away all of the miracles did Yeshua ever claim 
to be the Messiah?  Specific citation of an explicit claim if 
you would be so kind.

     As to words of wisdom, Don't be cruel to a heart that's 
true.  Nothing Yeshua said is on a higher level than that. 


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (21)
To:      Mike Timpe                             12 May 94 22:47:10
Subject: A Trash Warrant                        

MT>      I grew up surrounded by liberals in a small town called 
MT>  Cahokia, Il.  As I've grown older and been away longer from 
MT>  my homestate, I've grown wiser.  The system needs to change 
MT>  and that's for the conservatives to get control of both 
MT>  state and federal congress.

     I grew up in a moderate sized city called Cincinnati, Ohio.  
The people there were so frustrated 40 years ago they were making 
a joke the eventually the city would tax water.  Little did they 
realize every place would tax sewage which is the same thing 
unless you have a swimming pool AND there is relief for pool 
owners.  

     As to conservatives, sorry, they just want control of 
different things.  

     Consider Libertarians.  They want control of nothing and to 
dismantle the present controls.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (27)
To:      Virginia Cramer                        20 May 94 02:32:10
Subject: AIDS Stats                             

VC>  Why is it that people continually equate homosexuals with 
VC>  child molesters?

     Why does NAMBLA (North American Man Boy Love Association) 
march in all the gay parades?  What other type of organization 
would form around a criminal activity?  Who but gays would permit 
people advocating criminal child molestation to join in their 
parade?

VC>  Unless a person is both, they are not comparable.  Most 
VC>  homosexuals have relationships with consenting adults.  
VC>  Child molesters, on the other hand, force themselves on 
VC>  innocent children, whether by aggressive or passive means.  
VC>  I accept homosexuality but I will never accept child 
VC>  molestation.

     And the organizers of Gay Rights parades give them an 
opportunity to promote criminal child molestation.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (29)
To:      Mark Whalen                            20 May 94 02:38:10
Subject: ALL YOU NON-SMOKERS,                  

MW>  Hey, ditto!  An intelligent message!  Smokers are drug 
MW>  addicts.  I was hooked for sixteen years.  I have done some 
MW>  things in my life I am proud of, but nothing greater that 
MW>  escaping tobacco.

     A 12 step program, right?




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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (31)
To:      All                                    16 May 94 20:44:10
Subject: Another SC decision                    

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 1438 - WorldTalk-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                       Snuck One Passed You
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/16>

     Little noticed by the mainstream news there was a landmark
Supreme Court decision on 16 May 1994.  The decision held that a
person who has committed a federal felony can not possess a gun
even though the state of their residency has restored their civil
rights.  Sounds reasonable does it not?  Certainly it was done in
a good cause.
     What does that mean really?  For over two centuries the only
thrust of the Federal Government has been to open the civil
rights granted by the states to more and more people.  Thus there
was the vote for Black men and later for all women.  There have
been laws prohibiting discrimination (laws are required now for
would have required an amendment earlier you note.)
     Now the Supreme Court has decided the Federal Government can
deny the rights granted within the states.  Of course the
connection with a federal crime, therefore a felony, and guns
will make it highly unlikely any Congressman will involve himself
in objecting is vanishingly small.  And the precedent will be set
that the Federal Government is the supreme arbiter of citizens
rights within the states.
     Of course it won't go downhill overnight.  At the present
rate it will take two or three more years before something more
serious occurs.  There is no question that states no longer have
a say in civil rights.
     At this point I will note the Federal Constitution does not
grant or guarantee to power to vote.  I will point out it only
says, IF there is a right to vote then it can not be restricted
on certain grounds, race, sex, that sort of thing.  The Federal
government now has the right to restrict any state granted right
such as voting on any pretext it wishes.
     It happened.  They got away with another one.  What next?



---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (32)
To:      Seth Esrig                             14 May 94 17:26:10
Subject: ASSAULT WEAPON IDIOCY                  

SE>   The right wingers state they want  big-magazine semi-auto  .223,
SE>  .308s, military style weapons for the defense of  their freedoms.
SE>  But I agree with Kurt Saxon who states  that every  American need
SE>  only be armed with a 12guage pump, .38  police special  revolver,
SE>  and a .30-06 bolt action rifle.  I would add a .22LR bolt  action
SE>  target rifle to the  list, perhaps  a .22WMR  hunting rifle,  and
SE>  replace the '06 with a 30-30 lever for those who  don't like  the
SE>  recoil.  The  brands  amd  models that  are the  most rugged  and
SE>  reliable  also  happen  to  be among  the cheapest,  such as  the
SE>  Mossberg 500 shotguns or  the Winchester  Sportsman rifles.   The
SE>  arguments  against  the  military  style  weapons  are that  they
SE>  require  much  more  practice  time  and  ammo  to  learn to  use
SE>  properly,  cost  much  more   to  buy,   require  more   involved
SE>  maintanance due to their semi-auto action, and are more likely to
SE>  put  the  owner on  the wrong  side of  the law  merely by  their
SE>  ownership.  They give a false sense of security to the idiots who
SE>  believe in the "spray and pray" method of home/community defense.
SE>  How  many  of America's  semi-auto owners  have ever  bothered to
SE>  sight in a rifle, take it down and clean it, or managed to hit  a
SE>  paper target at 50 yards. Based on the  subhuman intelligence  of
SE>  the urban gang-bangers who own most  of them,  I'd say  not many.

     Whom do you think you are lecturing?



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (35)
To:      Ann Ross                               18 May 94 02:30:10
Subject: Best in 12 years on BBS'               

AR>  -=> Quoting Michael Shirley to Ann Ross <=-

AR>          First, let me say in 12 years (off and on) I have 
AR>          less than half a dozen times saved or printed a 
AR>          message found in any echo.  All three of your's are 
AR>          printed and will be referred to oftimes.  I 
AR>          sincerely wish to converse with you as your mind is 
AR>          extremely interesting.

     That is like praying to god for justice.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (36)
To:      Mike Ringgold                          12 May 94 22:51:10
Subject: BIOLOGY 101                            

MR>  MG> SV> Typical breeder reply.
MR>  MG>
MR>  MG>      I do not understand the "breeder" response as without 
MR>  MG>  breeder neither you nor the human race would exist.

MR>  That was meant to offend me.  To me it is a compliment.  
MR>  Without breeders he would not be here.  (nice thought)

     Now you are trying to spread the blame.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (38)
To:      Scot Vertullo                          16 May 94 19:04:10
Subject: BIOLOGY 101                            

SV>  > SV> Yup.
SV>  >
SV>  > SV> Typical breeder reply.
SV>  >
SV>  >      I do not understand the "breeder" response as without
SV>  > breeder neither you nor the human race would exist.

SV>  Damn right.  I do have one question though...  How come you 
SV>  "breeders" keep producing us homosexshuuls? :)

     Don't really know.  The latest research suggests it is a 
birth defect of some sort that results in incomplete development 
of a parts of the brain.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (39)
To:      All                                    15 May 94 04:26:10
Subject: Caning                                 

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0099 - Law & Disor-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     SNL, 5/14, Its News To Me

     [paraphrased]

     Experts have said that pictures of Michael Fay's buttocks 
could be worth up to $500,000.  They say he is sitting on a gold 
mine.


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (43)
To:      Virag Andras                           13 May 94 15:31:10
Subject: CLINTON'S SERB SCRIPT                  

VA>  PS> MG>       Bill Clinton's statements to the Serbs are based upon
VA>  PS> MG>  Monty Python and the Holy Grail.
VA>  PS> MG>       "None shall pass!"

VA>  Then why do they pass. All of 'em know the answers????????????

     You need to see the money.  They pass in the movie too but 
the knight loses both arms and legs while claiming he hasn't been 
hurt and threatening to bite of a kneecap at the end.

VA>  PS>  The only thing that really hacks me off about this
VA>  PS>   country's treatment of the Serbian situation is our
VA>  PS>   saber-rattling.  We've made a few airstrikes, but we
VA>  PS>   haven't done anything conclusive.  Clinton needs to learn
VA>  PS>   that just standing behind a podium and making threats is
VA>  PS>   not going to stop ANYONE, and that if he's really serious
VA>  PS>   about flattening the bad guys, he'd better quit talking
VA>  PS>   about it and just do it.

VA>  MG>  It is fun to kill people.  Just ask Billie Jeff.  As we 
VA>  MG>  have no purpose or objective there (the UN may or may not) 
VA>  MG>  we have no business being there.

VA>   Look.  I'm a Hungarian, I live here, right next to the 
VA>   serbs.  Actually I've been a soldier, when the war started 
VA>   out.  I've been in the 'firsts to go if they come' troops.  
VA>   And I didn't question that the americans or UN has 
VA>   anything to do here, I just wanted them to stop what those 
VA>   stupid exYugos were (and are) doing.  And I also thought 
VA>   that they shouldn't just speak about the peace, not only 
VA>   plea for it, but do something for it.  Why? Because I was 
VA>   afraid.  You sure don't know how weak is the Hungarian 
VA>   'army' is.  About 50% of the military things we have, has 
VA>   seen the WWII.  The rest is also made of crap.  The time 
VA>   when I was a soldier we were 3, 4 times weaker than the 
VA>   exYugoslavian army.  I know that that's 'none of America's 
VA>   business' but just think about this: those people are just 
VA>   the same as the old Scottish people.  'I hate You, I will 
VA>   kill You, rape Your women, kill Your children, but look 
VA>   there comes the British, let's go kick them in the 
VA>   butt...'.  And they go, kill the British, and keep on 
VA>   killing each other.  Does it makes sense? Now don't forget, 
VA>   that these people are Slavonic.  And the Slavonic people 
VA>   are really mad.  There's something bad with their head.  
VA>   They just don't think and do anything, following the 
VA>   logical way.  And actually I am not the only one to be 
VA>   afraid, and counting on Your help.  I don't know how many 
VA>   civilian had been killed by the US army, but I think they 
VA>   made much more less, then the serbs themselves.  And I 
VA>   think, that destroying military targets is not bad.  They 
VA>   should do it more faster.  Faster and more faster.  You know 
VA>   how high the Hungarian (and europian), crime level became 
VA>   since the breaking out of the war? Almost every second 
VA>   crime is related to a former Yugoslavian citizen...

     I am not sure where you are going with all of this but I 
will point out we have not even been asked by the people under 
attack to help.  I do not know if they have asked anyone but 
certainly they have not asked us.  If they asked the UN they 
should have known better.  

     If you are concerned about being attacked the US can supply 
you with whatever you need and arrange long term financing for 
you.  All you have to do is ask.

     However if you are saying you folks are not willing to make 
the effort to defend yourselves I would suggest you learn to 
speak Yugoslavian.

VA>  PS>   However, I am not in support of the United States alone 
VA>  PS>    getting involved.  The UN was founded to put a stop to 
VA>  PS>    the kind of mess that's going on in what used to be 
VA>  PS>    Yugoslavia, and they need to go in there and do it, 
VA>  PS>    instead of the US playing the cowboy in the white hat.

VA>   But they don't do anything, just walking around, and when 
VA>   one of them gets killed, saying 'tsk, tsk, bad boy, don't 
VA>   you do it again please, or I'll put you in the corner, 
VA>   OK?', and keep talking...

     That is what the UN is all about, nothing.

VA>  MG>  I am not aware the UN has an issue in Bosnia either.  I 
VA>  MG>  know of no place in its charter where it says there shall 
VA>  MG>  be no war.  The UN and the US for that matter screwed up 
VA>  MG>  royally recognizing all the new little countries before the 
VA>  MG>  dust had settled.  Now they have not the wisdom to 
VA>  MG>  recognize a diplomatic error.

VA>   But someone must stop those crazy people, don't you 
VA>   think???

     Are you saying you want to buy modern weapons to do it?

     They have not been stopped for the last 400 years.  They 
appear to schedule a slaughter like this every seventy years or 
so.  I have looked into this.  I was exchanging messages with 
someone in Split on the subject.  The issues involved are simply 
"too hard" to choose a side.  Unfortunately the US and the UN 
chose a side against the current losers with the arms embargo.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (44)
To:      All                                    18 May 94 01:14:10
Subject: Conflict of interest                   

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0019 - Law-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                    United States Constitution

Article I
 
Sect. 6. The senators and representatives shall receive a 
compensation for their services, to be ascertained by law, and 
paid out of the treasury of the United States.  They shall in all 
cases, except treason, felony and breach of the peace, be 
privileged from arrest during their attendance at the session of 
their respective houses, and in going to and returning from the 
same; and for any speech or debate in either house, they shall 
not be questioned in any other place.

No senator or representative shall, during the time for which he 
                             !!!!!
     
was elected, be appointed to any civil office under the authority 
             !!

of the United States, which shall have been created, or the 
emoluments whereof shall have been increased during such time; 
and no person holding any office under the United States, shall 
be a member of either house during his continuance in office.
 
=====

     It is a fine line between "shall be" and "already be" an 
officer of the court which is under the authority of the United 
States.  All attorneys are officers of the court and under their 
own jurisdiction.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (45)
To:      All                                    20 May 94 15:25:10
Subject: Conflict of interest?                  

     Has everyone noticed the same attorney who represents 
Clinton also represents Rostinkowski?  Robert Bennett is 
negotiating with Bill Clinton's staff to reduce the charges 
against Rostinkowski.  Am I the only person who sees a problem 
with this?


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (46)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        15 May 94 02:59:10
Subject: Constitutional admenment               

JB>  I think the AG should be elected the same as the Prez/Vice 
JB>  Prez, but independently and by popular vote only (no 
JB>  electoral college).  That way, you get a real independent 
JB>  AG who may be from a different party than the Prez/Vice 
JB>  Prez.

     But who is responsible to the president unless you are 
suggesting there be the creation of a fourth branch of 
government.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (47)
To:      All                                    13 May 94 03:51:10
Subject: correcting an ommission                

I have been remiss over the last year or so. 

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (55)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        12 May 94 22:51:10
Subject: Different strokes                      

JB> MG> JB>  But, I'll just add that I'm a short little squirt myself.
JB> MG> JB>  And men's ankles (and knees) don't get _me_ all hot and
JB> MG> JB>  bothered...  :)
JB> MG>
JB> MG>      What does?

JB> Now, Matt, I told you a long time ago... lots of money! :)

     Libertarian!

JB> Hubby does... although he isn't my "type".

     Married beneath yourself obviously.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (56)
To:      Bert Byfield                           15 May 94 03:03:10
Subject: Doj & Cults Revisited                  

BB>  Clinton ADMITTED he was responsible for the murders?  When 
BB>  does he go to trial?  Isn't this America where we are all 
BB>  equal under the law?  Charlie Manson killed less than ten 
BB>  people.  Clinton killed 90.  Clinton should have his day in 
BB>  court.  Or is murder legal for the government now?

     Yes,


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (57)
To:      Gary Steinweg                          15 May 94 03:04:10
Subject: Doj & Cults Revisited                  

GS>  To be really fair, he didn't actually kill those 80 people, 
GS>  he just raced with Reno to take responsibility, then 
GS>  decided that ladies first was a polite policy.  He did feel 
GS>  their pain, though.

     Actually after Reno taking responsibility and him waffling 
Limbaugh berated him for an entire day to stand up and take 
responsibility.  He did the next day.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (58)
To:      Martin Eble                            15 May 94 03:05:10
Subject: environment                            

ME> AH> Are regulations designed to protect the environment too
ME> AH> strict, too lenient, or just right?  *adh*

ME> Depends on whether you're

ME> a snail darter

ME> a sucking insect

ME> or a taxpayer.

     So now you hold there is a difference between a snail 
darter, a politician and a taxpayer.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (69)
To:      All                                    18 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: Florida Harrassment start              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0216 - Debate-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                  Florida HRS Harassment Starts

     In the case of Naomi D. Giwer a person with no involvement 
in the case appeared at the door claiming to be involved.  The 
only person involved legally is female, one Patricia Johnson.  
This was a he.  His name was not obtained; he offered no 
identification.

     The person represented that he had found in the file of Ms. 
Giwer's aunt a notification that a car had to be removed from the 
property for not having a current tag.  This is not illegal 
within the City of Dunedin.  Both her and her aunt live at the 
house.  No notification was ever delivered to the house.  
     
     The representation was that the aunt, as the home owner, was 
responsible.  The party was unaware Ms. Giwer's mother is also an 
owner of the property.  When informed of this he suggested if he 
looked into the mother's file he would find a similar 
notification.  He was unable to account for the coincidence he 
was involved in.

     His attempt was to obtain agreement to be permitted to tow 
the vehicle.  He was given no such agreement.  He was informed 
that what ever was done would be solely because of his own 
decision and would be his responsibility.  

     Prior to leaving he consulted privately with the declared 
incompetant aunt.  I can only assume it was a fruitful 
consultation and that he needed the expert counsel.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (70)
To:      All                                    10 May 94 17:49:10
Subject: Foreign Mercenaries                    

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0754 - Privacy-U
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


     As many of us are against the idea of hiring Hong Kong 
police for use in the US there are many ways to make our disgust 
at the idea of mercenaries known.  Of course we can write our 
elected representatives -- we can also piss up a rope and 
consider that a necessary contribution to the continuation of our 
postal system.  

     The other thing to do is to get the word to Hong Kong 
directly and suggest they advise their police of the attitude of 
America in their regard.

     A proper venue is of course the British Embassy in 
Washington DC.  If you are one of those who believes we learned 
how to run an efficient postal system from the British a more 
direct approach is desirable.

     First, letters can be sent directly to Hong Kong.  I have 
not looked into the postage nor its form of government -- so that 
it gets to the right person (I don't think Chief of Police will 
cut it.)

     Second is the following.  This is the highest ranking Hong 
Kong government organization I can find in this country.

Mr. Ba-sang Yeung
Second Secretary
Hong Kong Economic and Trade Office
1150 18th Street NW
Suite 475
Washington DC 20036

1-202-331-8947

     I told the person I spoke what my interest was and she 
suggested this person as the one who is responsible for getting 
such letters to the right person -- implying she did not know the 
right person either -- but I trust her suggestion.  

     I am composing a letter that will request their police be 
advised individually that Americans take a very dim view of 
mercenaries and that the last time mercenaries were brought to 
our shores they were the most hated and shown the least mercy in 
combat.  (Lay on the gory descriptions here.  If anyone has any 
good ones please post them.)

     I will also include a reference that I am opposing the 
passage of the law in the first place by writing similar letters 
to Congress.

     As reference for any letter you might be interested in 
writing here is the citation of interest.

                 IN CONGRESS, July 4, 1776.

                        A DECLARATION

                By the REPRESENTATIVES of the

                  UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

                In GENERAL CONGRESS assembled

             He is at this time, transporting large Armies of 
foreign Mercenaries to complete the works of Death, Desolation, 
and Tyranny, already begun with circumstances of Cruelty and 
Perfidy, scarcely paralleled in the barbarous Ages, and totally 
unworthy of the Head of a civilized Nation.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (74)
To:      George Rudzinski                       19 May 94 02:17:10
Subject: gun-control                            

GR> The assault rifles being banned are cheap and concealable.

     You are very stupid.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (79)
To:      All                                    13 May 94 04:44:10
Subject: Hey now!                               

 *********** Original       To: STEVEN GLADIN
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0106 - Civil Liber-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SG>  Actually, George Noonan has demonstrated such irrational 
SG>  fears of people that he does not know, that George should 
SG>  be involuntarily evaluated psychiatrically to determine if 
SG>  his continued liberty poses a danger to society at large.  
SG>  In Florida, we could Baker Act him.

     Speaking of Florida's infamous Baker Act it is ten days from 
the following letter.

     To preface I am the first husband of Naomi and the widower 
of another woman.  We have on child together, that being our only 
serious connection.  There is NO exaggeration in anything that 
follows.  This letter was mailed on the date indicated.  There 
has been no response as of the date and time of this message.

                            4 May 1994

Lawton Chiles
Governor
Governor's Mansion
Tallahassee Florida

Dear Sir,

     The State of Florida has declared it will harm the income
potential of Dunedin, Florida resident Naomi D. Giwer.  In doing
so the state has refused to release the "damning" document to her
without conditions it refuses to reveal.  Knowing she is of
limited financial means the State has given her hiring an
attorney as her only recourse thus making a fair hearing
impossible.
     As this is an administrative hearing and as such has no
right to be confronted by her accusers or to know the evidence
against her or to challenge the evidence.  She also does not have
the right to a fair and impartial hearing.
     There may be some justification for conducting a Star
Chamber hearing against her where she is investigated, accused,
tried and found guilty all by the same people.  The State
appears to believe it is to its best interests to keep the
charges secret.
     I had thought this sort of thing was only happening at the
Federal level.  I was unaware it had been adopted by Florida
also.
     My opinion of this proceeding is that it would make Stalin
proud.  I hardly consider it to be reforming HRS unless you also
change the initials to KGB.
     I find secret charges and promised harm to be unacceptable.
     I have forwarded copies of previous correspondence on this
matter to you and I have received no response.  This letter is
specifically a petition for redress of grievance.  Your attention
to this matter is requested.

                        Respectfully





                        Matthias M. Giwer

     For Naomi D. Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (81)
To:      All                                    17 May 94 19:26:10
Subject: Homeless exaggeration aga              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

           $1.7 billion to address the homeless problem

     In 1987 Mitch Snyder declares there are 3 million homeless 
in the US.

     In 1990 the Census Bureau finds there are 100,000 homeless 
in the US.

     On 17 May 1994 HUD Secretary Cisneros declares there are 
600,000 homeless in the US.   

     It is a powerfully attractive political issue to have the 
largest number of homeless possible.  


 3000000  |                X                                         
          |                X                                         
 2700000  |                X                                         
          |                X                                         
 2400000  |----------------X-----------------------------------------
          |                X                                         
 2100000  |                X                                         
          |                X                                         
 1800000  |                X                                         
          |                X                                         
 1500000  |----------------X-----------------------------------------
          |                X                                         
 1200000  |                X                                         
          |                X                                         
  900000  |                X                                         
          |                X                                         
  600000  |----------------X---------------------------------------X-
          |                X                                       X 
  300000  |                X                                       X 
          |                X                                       X 
       0  |                X                   X                   X 
          |----------------------------------------------------------
                                                                       
                           S                   C                   C   
                           n                   e                   i   
                           i                   n                   s   
                           d                   s                   n   
                           e                   u                   e   
                           r                   s                   r   
                                                                   o   
                           1                   B                   s   
                           9                   u                       
                           8                   r                   1   
                           7                   e                   9           
                   
                                               a                   9
                                               u                   4


     The swings are enormous.  The only difference between 
Cisneros and Snider is the numbers were pulled out of different 
asses.   Of course the Cisneros' ass hasn't been burned yet.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (89)
To:      Bill Bauer                             15 May 94 03:16:10
Subject: Important numbers                      

BB> ... *** BILL BAUER                                              ***
BB> ... *** MODERATOR                                               ***
BB> ... *** RIGHTS_RONGS ECHO                                       ***

     Speaking of which my sysop is also a REC or some such and 
tells me you have not petitioned for backbone status.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (94)
To:      All                                    16 May 94 01:45:10
Subject: KGB, Florida                           

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0019 - Law-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     For what it is worth, not one word I have posted here is 
false or misleading.  I have cut it down to the relevant 
essentials.  Naomi Giwer is my first wife.  As of this date I 
have received no response to this second letter.  

     This is not provided as a request for advice or assistance 
but rather as an opportunity to make public the Gestapo-like 
proceedings in the State of Florida.  It is noted the same agency 
doing this, HRS, was also responsible for child they put in a 
foster home being found severely malnourished and covered with 
infected sores only two months ago.  

     I also have a letter from HRS implying they would make the 
finding public if there were any waves caused.  To paraphrase, it 
is in her best interests this be kept private.  That implies 
either she would making something harmful to her damaging or they 
would.  It was a lovely threat.  

                            4 May 1994

Lawton Chiles
Governor
Governor's Mansion
Tallahassee Florida

Dear Sir,

     The State of Florida has declared it will harm the income
potential of Dunedin, Florida resident Naomi D. Giwer.  In doing
so the state has refused to release the "damning" document to her
without conditions it refuses to reveal.  Knowing she is of
limited financial means the State has given her hiring an
attorney as her only recourse thus making a fair hearing
impossible.

     As this is an administrative hearing and as such has no
right to be confronted by her accusers or to know the evidence
against her or to challenge the evidence.  She also does not have
the right to a fair and impartial hearing.

     There may be some justification for conducting a Star
Chamber hearing against her where she is investigated, accused,
tried and found guilty all by the same people.  The State
appears to believe it is to its best interests to keep the
charges secret.

     I had thought this sort of thing was only happening at the
Federal level.  I was unaware it had been adopted by Florida
also.

     My opinion of this proceeding is that it would make Stalin
proud.  I hardly consider it to be reforming HRS unless you also
change the initials to KGB.

     I find secret charges and promised harm to be unacceptable.

     I have forwarded copies of previous correspondence on this
matter to you and I have received no response.  This letter is
specifically a petition for redress of grievance.  Your attention
to this matter is requested.

                        Respectfully





                        Matthias M. Giwer

     For Naomi D. Giwer

1425 San Mateo Drive
Dunedin Florida 34698
(813) 733-5479



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (100)
To:      All                                    12 May 94 05:33:10
Subject: Libertarian alert                      

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 ***********              Conf: 1438 - WorldTalk-F
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     If anyone is interested I have discovered majority of 
participants in Fido-Worldtalk are defending socialism.  If 
anyone is interested in dealing with this plague worldwide please 
join me there.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (106)
To:      George Rudzinski                       19 May 94 02:23:10
Subject: Memorial Day                           

GR>  And they certainly aren't against soldiers.  The 
GR>  Congressional Medal of Honor has been awarded to 
GR>  homosexuals.

     How many?  By name.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (107)
To:      William Morgan                         19 May 94 02:25:10
Subject: Michael Fay Caning                     

WM>  And every day, more and more people are learning why 
WM>  Charles Bronson's "Death Wish" movies were so popular! 
WM>  Remember, an armed society is a polite society.

     And it is the responsibility of good citizens to create good 
criminals.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (108)
To:      All                                    10 May 94 15:03:10
Subject: News you may have missed               

 *********** Original       To: ALL
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Washington Times, 5 May 1994

State trooper's demotion captures attention of FBI

     The demotion of an Arkansas state trooper who recently 
accused president Clinton of sexual improprieties is being 
scrutinized by the FBI for possible obstruction of justice 
charges in connection with an ongoing probe of the 
Whitewater-Madison affair, informed sources said.

     The Arkansas State Police confirmed yesterday it has 
reassigned Trooper L.D. Brown, a 14 year veteran, from his post 
as an investigor to a uniformed patrol job.
     
     In an article in the April-May edition of the American 
Spectator magazine, Trooper Brown said he had solicited "over a 
hundred" sex partners for Mr. Clinton when he was governor of 
Arkansas.  His remarks corroborated the accounts of other 
troopers who have depicted Mr. Clinton as a womanizer.

     Trooper Brown's transfer was to have taken effect yesterday, 
but he has opted to take a two week vacation.

     "He is upset, no question about that," said his attorney, 
Justin Thornton of Washington.

     Asked if Trooper Brown believes he was reassigned because of 
the Spectator article, Mr. Thornton said:  "I don't think that is 
an unreasonable reaction from his point of view."

     Trooper Brown, who had been subpeonaed as a witness by 
Whitewater-Madison special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. before his 
demotion, now is considering a lawsuit against the state.   He 
said yesterday he is "distressed, to be quite candid and 
conservative.  I am not happy at all."

     The trooper declined to talk about any conversations he has 
had with the FBI.  As to when he would file a lawsuit, Trooper 
Brown said he was coming to Washington today for a series of 
meetings with lawyers of the next few days.

...

     Once described by his commander as the "best investigator I 
have," Trooper Brown has worked as a plainclothes investigator.  
"I haven't been in uniform in nearly 15 years," he said.   "This 
is incredible."

=====

Inside Politics

Hillary's Cattle

     In this week's New Republic, James Glassman examined first 
lady Hillary Rodham Clinton's trading record with Refco and 
observed that she was spared several potentially devastating, 
breaking margin calls.

     "She was certainly luckier that Stanley Greenwood, a 
well-off businessman who ... was in almost precisely the same 
situation as Rodham Clinton," Mr. Glassman reported.

     During the time of Mrs. Clinton's celebrated trading, Refco 
"sold out his positions, a loss to Greenwood of more than 
$100,000 -- 'even though I still has $25,000 in my account, and I 
was earning a six-figure income.'

     "[Mrs. Clinton] has minus $20,000 in her account and was 
earning a lot less.  Greenwood had a rhetorical question for me:  
'How com she got to stay in, and I had to get out?'"



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (109)
To:      All                                    20 May 94 14:48:10
Subject: News you may have missed               

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
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Washington Times, 16 May 1994

Research debunks idea of racial bias in death sentences

     A wide body of research indicates that racial bias does not 
account for disparities between the percentages of whites and 
blacks being arrested, imprisoned or sentenced to death.

     Moreover, a study by Stephen Klein of the Rand Corporation. 
in California found that when controlled for variables such as 
severity and number of crimes committed, there is no disparity 
between those sentenced to death for killing whites and those on 
death row for killing blacks.

...

     Mr. Klein said the research indicating that the death 
penalty is disproportionately applied to killers of whites failed 
to control for factors that dramatically change the outcome.

...

     When he considered the number of victims, whether the 
victims were vulnerable, whether killing took place to avoid 
arrest, whether a sex crime was involved and whether torture was 
involved, Mr. Klein said the statistical disparity evaporated.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (110)
To:      All                                    20 May 94 16:21:10
Subject: News you may have missed               

     Washington Times, 12 May 1994

Leach files own suit to get RTC records

     Rep. Jim Leach of Iowa yesterday sued tow federal agencies 
for documents in the Whitewater-Madison affair, saying efforts by 
his office to get the records had been rebuffed for five months 
because of their potentially "embarassing" content.

     Mr. Leach filed the lawsuit in U.S. District Court in 
Washington in his name only, but he noted his position as ranking 
Republican on the House Banking Committee.

     He asked the court to compel the Resolution Trust Corp. 
(RTC) and the Office of Thrift Supervision (OTS) to release all 
records involving Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan Association 
and the Whitewater Development Corp.

     The suit, which is not unprecedented but highly unusual, 
also asks the RTC and OTS officials admit they "violate their 
legal obligation to run over the documents" under the Freedom of 
Information Act (FOIA).

Longtime friend probed as source of Clinton funds

     Special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. has expanded his 
Whitewater-Madison investigation into New Mexico, where FBI 
agents are looking into a bankrupt $20 million ski resort once 
owned by Dan R. Lasater, a convicted cocaine dealer and longtime 
friend and supporter of President Clinton.

     
EPA takes heat on Hill for passive-smoke report

     An Environmental Protection Agency report that secondhand 
smoke increases the risk of cancer for nonsmokers is not 
supported by statistical evidence, congressional researchers said 
yesterday.

     "Our evaluation was that the statistical evidence does not 
appear to support a conclusion that there was substantial health 
effects from passive smoking," Jane G. Gravelle, senior 
specialist in economic policy for the Congressional Research 
Service (CRS), told a Senate panel.

     Testifying before a Senate Environment and Public Works 
subcommittee, Ms. Gravelle said her research group had found 
"some uncertainties" in the EPA's estimate of the numbers of 
deaths attributable each year to passive smoking.

...

     "I don't want to talk about all of this legal and regulatory 
stuff, but his is a small, weak effect ... an uncertain effect 
... and it's hard to detect small things," Ms. Gravelle said in 
an interview after the Senate hearing.

     Released in January 1993, the EPA report found the 
environmental tobacco smoke (ETS) is a human carcinogen that 
causes 3,000 deaths among nonsmokers each year.

     Leaders in the tobacco industry, who have consistantly 
charged that the EPA's findings were based on flawed science and 
political correctness, felt vindicated and were ebullient after 
Ms. Gravelle's testimony.

...

     But Ms. Gravelle said her research group's conclusion that 
the statistical evidence does not show there are significant 
health risks from passive smoking "flows from an analysis of the 
methodology employed in assessing such health effects and 
purports to no technical research or conclusion on the physiology 
of disease-causing agents."

     Had the EPA used other methods to assess risk, she said, the 
estimated number of deaths among nonsmokers from passive smoking 
could have been as low as three per year.

...

     Furthermore, two major studies that were not included in the 
EPA report found no overall risk of cancer from passive smoking, 
the congressional researcher noted.

     Ms. Gravelle said an alternative way of measuring the 
effects of environmental smoke -- using the amounts of a tobacco 
metabolite (or chemical) found in the urine -- showed the effect 
to be equivalent to smoking one-tenth of a cigarette a day.  Such 
and intake would suggest an estimate of only 600 nonsmoker 
deaths, she said.

     This method "assumed a linear relationship between the 
incidence of disease and [ETS] exposure," she said.  But there is 
"some evidence that disease that disease rises with the square of 
the [length of] exposure or even with higher powers in the case 
of lung cancer," she said.
     
     In that case, the "estimate would be only three people 
rather than 600 people," she said.

U.S. eavesdropping increases by a third

     Wiretaps and electronic monitoring by federal agents, 
primarily against suspected drug traffickers, grew by one-third 
during the first year of the Clinton administration, the largest 
increase in a decade.

Democrats say no to including Hill in civil rights law

     {Enough said-- mg}



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (111)
To:      All                                    20 May 94 17:54:10
Subject: news you may have missed               

     The Washington Times, 11 May 1994

Arafat's first Cabinet pick is an anti-Israel state rabbi

     GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip -- Yassar Arafat has yet to name all 
the members of the new Palestine National Authority that will 
rule Gaza and Jericho, but on announcement he has made is the 
appointment of Moshe Hirsch as minister for Jewish affairs in the 
Gaza and Jericho government.  

     The 60-year-old rabbi is a prominent member of the Naturei 
Karta sect -- the name means Guardians of the City -- a group 
of ultra-Orthodox Jews living in Jerusalem who oppose Zionism 
and the state of Israel.

...

     Although many ultra-Orthodox Jews share with him a desire to 
live under non-Jewish rule, most residents of Jerusalem's 
ultra-Orthodox community believe Rabbi Hirsch has gone too far 
this time.  Some said they plan to greet him on his return to the 
city by pouring hot tar on his long, white beard.

     "He's going to hurt bad," said Yehuda Meshe Zahav, a 
prominent member of the ultra-Orthodox community.

     {An accompanying picture showing Rabbi Hirsch.  His beard is 
approximately 3 inches long.  He is going to hurt. -- mg}



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (112)
To:      All                                    20 May 94 17:56:10
Subject: news you may have missed               

Washington Times 13 May 1994

House panel's smoking ban excludes few public places

     A congressional subcommittee yesterday approved a bill to 
ban virtually all smoking in public buildings after the measure 
was amended to exclude restaurants, bars, private clubs, tobacco 
shops and prisons.

...

     The bill, sponsored by Rep. Henry Waxman, California 
Democrat and subcommittee chairman, originally called for a 
prohibition in all public buildings, except in designated areas 
with special exhaust systems that would send smoke outside.

...

     He called the Smoke-Free Environment Act the "most important 
legislation in disease prevention in years" and cited the 
Environmental Protection Agency that its enactment would save 
38,000 to 108,000 lives each year.

     Ironically, the subcommittee's passage of the bill came one 
day after analysts with the Congressional Research Service told a 
Senate panel that the EPA report about the health risks of second 
hand smoke is not supported by the evidence.

     {Note also the deliberate exaggeration of the number.  -- 
mg}





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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (113)
To:      All                                    21 May 94 15:41:10
Subject: News you may have missed               

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
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 ***********              Conf: 0216 - Debate-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     Washington Times 17 May 1994

Whitewater-papers suit to get earlier court dates

     Rep. Jim Leach, who has unsuccessfully sought 
Whitewater-Madison documents for five months, and lawyers for two 
federal agencies he sued for the records yesterday agreed to 
accelerated court dates for legal arguments in the case.

...

     Mr. Leading, the leading proponent in Congress for hearings 
in the Whitewater-Madison affair, said in a lawsuit filed last 
Wednesday in U.S. District Court in Washington that efforts by 
his office to get the records had been rebuffed since December 
because of their potentially embarrassing" content.

Fiske OKs review of Treasury papers

     Special counsel Robert B. Fiske Jr. said yesterday he has 
given the White House permission to review Treasury Department 
documents detailing contacts with regulators over the 
Whitewater-Madison affair.

     Mr. Fiske described the action as a "limited step" to allow 
the White House to prepare for congressional hearings ... 

     {I presume this is why Clinton liked Fiske. -- mg}

Supreme Court rules on guns and garbage

     The Supreme Court played referee yesterday in 
jurisdictional disputes over garbage, guns and Ellis Island

...

     For people convicted of serious federal crimes, only the 
federal government can restore their constitutional right to 
possess guns, the high court said.


{{{{{Can ANYONE find this?  It would be a finding in favor of the 
2nd amendment even though it does take away states powers in 
civil rights. -- mg}}}}}

               INSIDE Politics

Perk coincidence

     An airport official told Roll Call it is "just 
coincidental," but the wording of the signs designating reserved 
airport parking for Congress has been changed to remove 
references to members.  
     
     Until three weeks ago the signs read "Reserved Parking/ 
Supreme Court Justices/ Members of Congress/ Diplomatic Corps."  
Now they say only "Restricted Parking/ Authorized Users Only," 
says Roll Call.

     The change went into effect April 25, five days after the 
Senate defeated a warmly contested measure calling for the 
removal of the reserved lots.

     Sen. John McCain, Arizona Republican and leader of the 
effort to remove the lots, called the sign change a "stupid" 
effort to "deceive the public."



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (115)
To:      All                                    24 May 94 06:22:10
Subject: Op-ed piece (another)                  

 *********** Original       To: ALL
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                      What Democracy Is
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>
     People today act and speak as though democracy is some boon
granted by the gods that lets them vote.  As though the only
point of democracy is that everyone vote.  I would suggest that
is garbage.
     Everyone may be a fine ideal and it certainly plays to the
masses but it has nothing whatsoever to do with government.
     The point of a democracy is that without it those that do
have a say in the direction of government will direct the
government toward their interests and their ends.  A democracy is
determined by a large enough voting group that is not determined
by any political position that is involved.  Thus the landed as
voters are right out but those over some reasonable age are in.
     If only farmers get the vote then by damn the country will
stay agrarian forever.  If only the nobility get the vote then
the nobility will last forever.  If only those over the age of XX
vote there is no way to suggest there everyone is not represented
in some manner.  Extension to sex was the first obvious one and
that make no real difference save for statisticians when they can
gain media attention with a gender gap.
     Our issue is not whether we have a democracy or a republic,
it barely matters in the delegation of authority save after the
third term legislators tend to get it backwards.  What really
matters is that we are Constitutional regardless of the above.
     Our Constitution requires not a majority vote nor a majority
poll result.  Our constitution requires a 2/3 majority to even
propose a change to our Constitution and a 3/4 approval of any
change before it is in force.
     But by any variation upon any of the above we have a
sufficient sampling of our population who are voting to make
democracy work.  What we have is a willful and deliberate
intention to ignore the limitations of government in its creation
and instead to accept powers specifically not permitted by that
constitution.
     Democracy is not what we have now because it exists now.
Democracy is completely viable without women voting.  It is not
viable when an accident of birth, other than something neutral
like age, determines the vote.  Certainly there are valid claims
of harm and unfairness by women but the system did work without
them.
     I find myself arguing in the negative at this point.  My
points are
     
     1)  Democracy works because of a neutral sampling of the
population

     2)  The more stringent requirements of a Constitution
govern.

     As such I find much fault with government by opinion polls
and government by consensus.  I find particular fault with a
Congress and a Supreme Court and at the moment a President who
are also officers of the court and hold dual office as officers
of the court in contravention to the Constitution as written.  I
also have a problem with every self-serving BAR association in
this country that holds a lawyer being an officer of the court
and a legislator is not a conflict of interest.
     A long discussion and more than a little digression.  The
fact of democracy is not that you vote but that the system does
not favor a specific voting group of people.  It does not matter
at 100,000 homeless are solicited in their boxes to vote as
2/3rds of them could be disqualified from voting were there the
resources.  It barely matters that the age is 18 vice 21 (three
years) given the two years between voting that is the minimum in
this country -- you miss one you catch the next and only once in
your life.
     Democracy is intended solely to terminate elite control of
the government and nothing more.  When there is a wide enough
voting base for that the problem is solved.
     It is NOT intended to create a world where the majority of
51% rules the losers of 49%.  The existence of a constitution is
what separates the sheep from the lambs.
     Unfortunately we are all sheep these days.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (116)
To:      All                                    19 May 94 01:25:10
Subject: Origin of morality                     

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                     Origins of Morality
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/19>

     It is presumptuous of me to attack the subject but then
since it was last addressed seriously there has been a century of
anthropologic research.  What once took a life time of work to
demonstrate morality came from god now takes but a short article
to discuss.
     Humans have many characteristics which make us unique and we
concentrate on them to the exclusion of most everything else.
Speech is one of them.  Morality is another.
     We know we evolved from social animals.  Social animals only
exist when they have evolved the characteristics which permit
them to live in social groups.  It existence is identical with
the definition of the species.
     We have many different moral codes as we have many different
languages.  We learn both our moral code and our language from
birth.  A human that can not grasp speech is as rare as a human
who can not grasp a moral code.
     A moral code is simply what permits social life.  The
general rules are common to all, the specifics can vary widely.
It is the same as with a language.  All languages are for
communicating and although they may vary in complexity and the
ability to express things, it is the exceptional language we use
as strange examples.
     It is not uncommon in primitive social systems to consider
their language god given and other languages to only be spoken by
non-humans.  We have no substantive difference in our view of
morality save we will sometimes admit those who do not follow our
system are still human.  We do work to save them from it.
     The British pushed the English language upon the world.
They also pushed the European moral system on the world.
Consider the US uproar over the Singapore moral system.  They do
not agree with ours so they must be wrong.
     It was the same type of person who would have insisted the
way to make a person understand English is to speak louder.  It
was not everyone, it was the sanctimonious class.  The class that
holds their view of human behavior is the only proper view.
     Humans also have problems with changing their moral system.
It is as difficult as learning a new language.  Total immersion
is the usual way to learn and there are truly few who do not
grasp the concept of "when in Rome do as the Romans do."  It is
as easy to learn as is learning to speak the language of the
Romans.
     If we give linguistics some credence then language like
morality is simplifying over the millenia.
     Presuming you will give the above some credence, what is my
point?  I hold it is possible to construct an artificial language
and an artificial morality.  I do not mean a false morality and
we can all tell those as easily as we can tell a gibberish from a
real language.  I mean a morality that creates premises of
behavior.  In this case we can use terms like good and evil and
admit that humans are sinful.
     There is a constructed moral system that did not grow up on
spectators like Topsey.  The one that has been proposed is based
upon the following.  The use of force is inherently evil.
     Humans can be evil but must never lose sight of the inherent
evil of force.  It is incumbent upon us to judge the evil of the
force against the evil of that which we wish to use force
against.
     Government has become out codification of our moral
standards.  It permits our morality that is good only for
relatively small family groups to work for social groups in the
millions of unrelated people.  What is needed is a moral system
that assumes force is evil to be imposed upon our governments.
     And use of force by the government must always be from the
moral perspective that force is evil and must only be used to
prevent a greater evil.  It can NEVER be used to support a
greater good.
     There is the key concept I have been building toward.  Evil
can not morally be used to promote good but only to stop a
greater evil.  (This is not an invitation to doublethink and say
that not providing a greater good is evil.  Honest thought does
not work that way.)  We need the admission that all laws are the
use of force whether or not there is voluntary compliance.  Thus
we would not tolerate a law for the "good" any more than we would
tolerate one person forcing another to do something for "his own
good."
     Notice that this is nothing new.  But also notice what we
would never tolerate from and individual we advocate for our
governments.  We make no pretensions that law makers become
god-like in wisdom by virtue of becoming law-makers yet we
readily accept force by those same law-makers.
     We have not learned to accept that we are evil when we use
force but that our evil can be justified.  We must never lose
sight that the evil of force must be scrupulously justified in
every case.  Rather we have come to accept a public morality we
would never accept from an individual.
     We permit our governments to use the evil of force to
promote good.  The moral system I propose finds this offensive.
It is hardly different from the Hippocratic oath, do no harm.




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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (117)
To:      Charles Hill                           13 May 94 04:02:10
Subject: PGP in progress                        

CH> The pertinent Rule of the Conference saith thusly:

CH>  "PGP (Pretty Good Privacy) (tm) and other encryption 
CH>  systems:  Entire messages ought not to be encoded; however, 
CH>  until such time as FidoNet may choose to establish 
CH>  contravening policy in this matter, exchange of public keys 
CH>  as part of a legitimate message shall be permitted."
CH> 
CH>  This particular Rule specifically permits public keys, and 
CH>  does not really bar encrypted messages.  The original 
CH>  intent of the author (don't you wish these Constitutional 
CH>  scholars had it so easy?) was to keep people from 
CH>  encrypting everything they posted in the conference, since 
CH>  it adds a lot of unreadable stuff to everybody's mail 
CH>  packets.  Clearly this is not your intention, so I see no 
CH>  reason to object to it.
CH> 
CH>  So mote it be....cgh

     If I may add...

     Giwerworld on Lucifernet reaches every place in the country 
for a short LD cost at worst.  This conference has no rules, 
period, and encrypted messages are not within the notice of the 
deity in charge of the conference, namely me.  Jimmy Pearson will 
confirm upon request.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (118)
To:      William Childress                      13 May 94 15:46:10
Subject: RED SHIFT VS CREATION                  

WC> MG> Are you saying Judas hung himself by this feet so that he 
WC> MG> could fall "headlong"?  Was he an early bungee jumper?

WC>          I take it that you are indicating that the events 
WC>  listed are impossible!  

     I was pointing out there are contradictory, infallible 
statements in the recountings.

However, I can't count how many 
WC>  times people have offered similar arguments regarding 
WC>  biblical documentation.  Regardless, a bright individual 
WC>  ought to be able to come up with at least a single 
WC>  plausible solution to the dilemma.  In other words, toss 
WC>  your prejudice aside for a minute, and let's say that both 
WC>  passages are correct.  After all, this admission on your 
WC>  part would not substantiate the whole Bible.  Therefore, 
WC>  what can you come up with to satisfy both descriptions? 

     Bungee jumping.  Maybe Yeshua gave him the bungee cords.  He 
was god wasn't he?

WC>  Consider this though, if you fail to offer any solution, 
WC>  then anyone posting a plausible solution will cause others 
WC>  to seriously question your intellect.  And, why should 
WC>  people even consider future arguments posted by an 
WC>  intellectually impaired individual?

     You are the one who has to support infallible 
contradictions, not me.  I could care less.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (125)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           18 May 94 17:09:10
Subject: Satanism                               

KP>  KP>        Yes, as we have seen, we have the technological
KP>  KP> ability to destroy the planet and all life on it. Do we have
KP>  KP> the developed wisdom to survive it?

KP>  LT> We cannot destroy this planet.  It can destroy us, however.

KP>          As theory goes, if all the remaining nuclear 
KP>   weapons in the arsenals were to be detonated at roughly 
KP>   the same time, the Earth would become a second sun.  I 
KP>   would think that having an ambient temperature of about 
KP>   140,000 degrees Celsius would make the planet roughly 
KP>   uninhabitable.

     Other than that being absolute nonsense it has no other 
fault.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (127)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           19 May 94 02:31:10
Subject: Satanism                               

KP> LT>KP> As theory goes, if all the remaining nuclear weapons in the
KP> LT>KP>  arsenals were to be detonated at roughly the same time, the
KP> LT>KP> Earth would  become a second sun. I would think that having an
KP> LT>KP> ambient temperature of   about 140,000 degrees Celsius would
KP> LT>KP> make the planet roughly uninhabitable.

KP> LT>   The secret woid is "theory"

KP>          Pretty solid theiry Linda.  Want to put it to the 
KP>  test? Seems like our President does.....
     
     Pretty solid crap although not in line for solid waste 
disposal.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (130)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           19 May 94 15:22:10
Subject: Satanism                               

KP> MG>KP>          As theory goes, if all the remaining nuclear
KP> MG>KP>   weapons in the arsenals were to be detonated at roughly
KP> MG>KP>   the same time, the Earth would become a second sun.  I
KP> MG>KP>   would think that having an ambient temperature of about
KP> MG>KP>   140,000 degrees Celsius would make the planet roughly
KP> MG>KP>   uninhabitable.

KP> MG>     Other than that being absolute nonsense it has no other
KP> MG>fault.

KP>          Again Matt, are you willing to put it to the test? 
KP>  As I recall, at one point the Soviets had something like 
KP>  37,000 nukes of 50 MT or more, not counting MIRV capacity.  
KP>  And the U.S.  had some greater number.  I'm not sure what 
KP>  70,000+ 50mt bombs would do if detonated simultaneously.  I 
KP>  imagine they might make a little bit of a mess.  You of 
KP>  course would be out with your Raybans and surfer suit!

     You claimed there was such a theory.  You merely have to 
recount the theory.  In that recounting of the theory the 
mechanism for as well as the amount of the temperature increase 
be apparent.  

     We can discuss the test later after we have gone over the 
math leading to the prediction.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (133)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           20 May 94 01:58:10
Subject: Satanism                               

KP> MG>      You claimed there was such a theory.  You merely have 
KP> MG> to recount the theory.  In that recounting of the theory the 
KP> MG> mechanism for as well as the amount of the temperature 
KP> MG> increase be apparent.

KP>          Try reading Carl Sagan's writings on nuclear winter 
KP>  and the nuclear armageddon.  He and some of the others make 
KP>  a compelling case for nuclear anihilation.

     Are you referring to Carl "never been right" Sagan?  One of 
his global climate changes was tested by the Iraqies in Kuwait.  
He was dead wrong there.  Why would you pay attention to other 
crap?

     He couldn't get Kuwait right but of course he can get 
nuclear winter right.  You have a touching faith in a TV 
personality.

KP> MG>     We can discuss the test later after we have gone over the
KP> MG>math leading to the prediction.

KP>         As anal retentive as ever, I see.

     As you can not even imagine the concept of a scientific 
theory I expected nothing better from you.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (135)
To:      Ken Pangborn                           20 May 94 13:34:10
Subject: Satanism                               

KP> MG>     Are you referring to Carl "never been right" Sagan?  One of
KP> MG>his global climate changes was tested by the Iraqies in Kuwait.
KP> MG>He was dead wrong there.  Why would you pay attention to other
KP> MG>crap?

KP>         Matt you have a way about you.

     So does Sagan, wrong.

KP> MG>KP> MG>     We can discuss the test later after we have gone over the
KP> MG>KP> MG>math leading to the prediction.

KP> MG>KP>         As anal retentive as ever, I see.

KP> MG>     As you can not even imagine the concept of a scientific
KP> MG>theory I expected nothing better from you.

KP>         As usual, Giwer deals with the issues.

     Please prove me wrong and present the theory so we can go 
over the math.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (136)
To:      Michael Funk                           10 May 94 21:01:10
Subject: SCHINDLER'S LIST                       

MF>  MG>  So if you have three hours and the cash to drop on what is 
MF>  MG>  undoubtedly the worst movie every to be given an academy 
MF>  MG>  award don't miss it.

MF>  Nope, you weren't the last to see the movei...I will 
MF>  be!..And now I Think I won't even do that if this movie is 
MF>  that bad.  I have the book, so I'll read it instead.

     I have not read the book.  Remember I am commenting upon it 
as a movie.  If you know everything around it you may enjoy it.  
But this is like an event that happened in the course of the 
Chinese civil war of 1859 (?) without every giving you one word 
about that war or any context within it.  
     

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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (137)
To:      All                                    19 May 94 21:39:10
Subject: Scoailist paradise                     

AA> "Choosing to Die"
AA> Newsweek (05/16/94) Vol. 123, No. 20, P. 42;  Katel, Peter
AA>       Luis Enrique Delgado was tired of the rules and 
AA>  regulations of Cuban society, so he had a friend at an AIDS 
AA>  sanitarium extract some blood with a syringe, then had 
AA>  another patient inject the contaminated blood into his own 
AA>  veins.  Delgado is one of a group of young people known as 
AA>  frikis--"freaks" or "rockers"--who claim that they 
AA>  intentionally became infected with HIV by injecting 
AA>  themselves with tainted blood.  Various sources have named 
AA>  more than 30 young people from Pinar del Rio who say they 
AA>  injected HIV, and 55 more who have already died.  According 
AA>  to the accounts, the self-injections occurred in 1989-91.  
AA>  A former Cuban AIDS health worker says that while it is 
AA>  possible that some of the frikis could have contracted HIV 
AA>  from drug injections, the rapid onset of full-blown AIDS 
AA>  among the group indicates that their explanation is a 
AA>  truthful one.  "There is no other explanation for someone 
AA>  dying in two years but a direct blood-to-blood injection," 
AA>  he says.  Cuba's policy at the time was to quarantine 
AA>  anyone testing HIV-positive.  For the frikis, life in an 
AA>  AIDS sanitarium meant three square meals daily, air 
AA>  conditioning, an absence of police--luxuries the average 
AA>  Cuban did not enjoy.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (153)
To:      All                                    23 May 94 21:09:10
Subject: Size as liability                      

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                      Reverse Vigilance
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/23>

     Some months ago I pointed out one of the serious problems
with a large government is the requirement of vigilance.  The
larger the government the less possible the vigilance.  Losses of
liberty can be snuck through on a thousand fronts and it is
impossible to watch them all.
     On the other hand should there be a concerted effort to
discredit the government its size becomes its liability.  Any
action by the government can be portrayed in a negative light and
there can not be enough press conferences in a day to deal with
any but the most serious charges.  In the mean time dozens of
small charges become gospel.
     The only thing preventing this from happening right now is a
degree of responsibility in the press.  Criticism is generally
limited to political lines.  It is much less common to find
strong criticism of the government in the popular media that has
no partisan interest.
     It is a mark of our times that our government is viewed as
the property of the political party in power.  It is the prize of
the political process.  And reason to win is to effort to win is
to promote a political agenda.
     Were there a organized effort to weaken public confidence in
the government it would require no more than spreading deliberate
lies.  "Everyone knows" the government is in control of every
thing.  It is a simple belief to play upon.
     The government plans to institute water rationing all of the
country in the summer and they use the IRS to collect the penalty
and put you in jail.  There are at least three things wrong with
that statement and the out "it wasn't this summer but it is
coming" sitting right there.
     Would anyone truly question the FDA might have plans to ban
meat consumption?  Throw in a ban on milk production and you will
have mothers in combat fatigues marching on Washington within the
hour.  Claim its head is a vegetarian, find a publicity shot of
him eating a salad at a speaking dinner and it is conclusive.
     Is there any other explanation for all those Post Office
employees other than they are reading our mail?  Haven't you
always wondered why the most important mail is late?  Why do you
think they are trying to automate the Post Office other than they
have a computer tracking who you are writing to.
     Of course you must ignore that relatively little personal
communication is conducted by the mail but is someone brings it
up point out the very silent background on the phones means they
are being tapped by the FCC, and "everyone knows" how many
employees they have.
     Consider the government has been able to minimize with great
difficulty the allegation of an intention to ban all guns with an
intensive effort to point out it is just some guns.  Imagine the
impossibility doing that on a hundred fronts.
     If each bill before congress were attacked with some
sinister aspect to it the legislative process could be brought to
a standstill.  This would require very little work as the farther
from the reality of bill the better.  All that would be needed
would be the working title.
     The citizenry of this country has a short memory when it
comes to particulars.  The people already have little confidence
in the government.  There are enough single examples, such as the
Treasury Department being given the power to ban guns that
another department banning meat is easy to believe.
     A large government such as ours is inherently vulnerable to
this kind of attack.  The lack of success so far has been that
lack of serious effort.  After all there is as yet no organized
effort to over throw the government.
     Our government remains vulnerable to this kind of attack and
there is nothing illegal about such an attack.  And passing a law
making it a crime to spreads lies about the government would not
need any exaggeration.
     And besides, what is so wrong about hamstringing the
legislative process?

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (156)
To:      All                                    15 May 94 04:55:10
Subject: So much for privacy!   01              

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0025 - Politics-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: SIMON JESTER
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 05/09/94 - 0002477
 **********             On: MERCOPUS - 0099 - Law & Disor-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


Picked this up while cruising the "highway", and figured it might be worth
passing on:

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-Copyright 1993,4 Wired USA Ltd.  All Rights Reserved=-=-=-=-=-=
-=-=For complete copyright information, please see the end of this file=-=-
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

WIRED 2.04

Electrosphere

The End Of Privacy

Did you know there's a working group of security agents and telecommunications
companies designing backdoors into the information infrastructure? Now you do. 

By Brock N. Meeks 

[Note: The following article will appear in the April 1994 issue of WIRED. We,
the editors of WIRED, are net-casting it now in its pre-published form as a
public service. Because of the vital and urgent nature of its message, we
believe readers on the Net should hear and take action now. You are free to
pass
this article on electronically; in fact we urge you to replicate it throughout
the net with our blessings. If you do, please keep the copyright statements and
this note intact. For a complete listing of Clipper-related resources available
through WIRED Online, send email to with the following message: "send
clipper.index". - The Editors of WIRED] 

If privacy isn't already the first roadkill along the information superhighway,
then it's about to be. The panel members didn't try to finesse the subject.
They
went right for the privacy jugular, saying law enforcement agencies wanted to
"front load" the NII with trapdoor technologies that would allow them easy
access to digital conversations, including capturing electronic communications
midstream. 

But these are tools the "good guys" said would be used only to catch the "bad
guys." Honest. We hard-working, law-abiding citizens have nothing to fear from
these cops selling out our privacy rights to make their jobs easier. Nope, we
can rest easy, knowing that child pornographers, drug traffickers, and
organized
crime families will be sufficiently thwarted by law enforcement's proposed
built-in gadgetry, which they want to hang off every telephone and data
network,
not to mention fax machine and PBX. 

There's just one small crack in this logic: No law enforcement agency has yet
proven it needs all these proposed digital trapdoors. In fact, "Right now most
law enforcement personnel don't have any idea what the NII is," this according
to Assistant US Attorney Kent Walker, who appeared on the panel. 

Gore Gives Go Ahead

In January, Vice President Gore had promised that the White House would work to
ensure that the NII would "help law enforcement agencies thwart criminals and
terrorists who might use advanced telecommunications to commit crimes." Panel
members representing the Justice Department, FBI, and US Attorney's office said
they had taken his promise as a tacit approval of their proposals to push for
digital wiretap access and government-mandated encryption policies. 

Gore buried those remarks deep in a speech he made in Los Angeles in which he
fleshed out how the administration planned to rewrite the rules for
communications in a new, perhaps more enlightened age. His pledge went
unnoticed
by the mainstream press. 

Notwithstanding that it fell on reporters' deaf ears, Gore dropped a bombshell.
Forget Ross Perot's NAFTA-inspired "giant sucking sound." This was the dull
"thump" of Law Enforcement running over the privacy rights of the American
public on its way **at the on-ramp??**to the information superhighway. The real
crime is that the collision barely dented the damn fender. 

Walker blithely referred to this cunning, calculated move to install
interception technologies all along the information superhighway as "proactive"
law enforcement policy. Designing these technologies into future networks,
which
include all telephone systems, would ensure that law enforcement organizations
"have the same capabilities [they] enjoy right now," Walker said. 

For today's wiretap operations, the Feds must get a court to approve their
request, after supplying enough evidence to warrant one. But Walker seemed to
be
lobbying for the opposite. Giving the Feds the ability to listen in first and
give justification later amounts to "no big difference," he said. Besides, "it
would save time and money." 

And Walker promised that law enforcement would only use this power against
evil,
never abusing it. "Frankly, I don't see the empirical evidence that law
enforcement agencies have abused [wiretap authority]," he said. With a straight
face. 

It's Us vs. Them

For Walker, privacy issues weighed against law-enforcement needs is a
black-and-white, or rather good-guys-versus-bad-guys, issue. For example, he
said, the rapid rise of private (read: not government-controlled) encryption
technologies didn't mean law enforcement would have to work harder. On the
contrary, "it only means we'll catch fewer criminals," he said. 

But if law enforcement is merely concerned with the task of "just putting the
bad guys in jail," as James Settle, head of the FBI's National Computer Crime
Squad insists, then why are we seeing a sudden move by government intelligence
agencies into areas they have historically shied from? Because law enforcement
agencies know their window of opportunity for asserting their influence is open
right now, right at the time the government is about to make a fundamental
shift
in how it deals with privacy issues within the networks that make up the NII,
says David Sobel, general counsel for Computer Professionals for Social
Responsibility, who also addressed the Working Group on Privacy. 

"Because of law enforcement's concerns (regarding digital technologies), we're
seeing an unprecedented involvement by federal security agencies in the
domestic
law enforcement activities," Sobel said, adding that, for the first time in
history, the National Security Agency "is now deeply involved in the design of
the public telecommunications network." 

Go ahead. Read it again. 

Sobel backs up his claims with hundreds of pages of previously classified memos
and reports obtained under the Freedom of Information Act. The involvement of
the National Security Agency in the design of our telephone networks is, Sobel
believes, a violation of federal statutes. 

Sobel is also concerned that the public might soon be looking down the throat
of
a classified telecommunications standard. Another move he calls "unprecedented"
is that - if the National Security Agency, FBI, and other law enforcement
organizations have their way - the design of the national telecommunications
**
Continued in the next message...
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (157)
To:      Ken Wiebe                              18 May 94 03:25:10
Subject: Socialists                             

KW> JH>  Gimme a break!  It is the same stupid "love it or leave 
KW> JH>  it"/"like it or lump it" philosophy any way you look at 
KW> JH>  it.

KW>  As an anti-smoke legislation supporter, I don't really 
KW>  expect you to understand the difference.  Suffice it to say 
KW>  that restaurants are a dime a dozen, and very common, free 
KW>  countries are rare as hen's teeth.

     Unfortunately the US is a Fascist country that assumes the 
right to control free enterprise soley on the grounds that it is 
free.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (158)
To:      Scot Vertullo                          20 May 94 18:32:10
Subject: Stockpiling guns...              

SV>  >          If you were confining the subject to weapons, then 
SV>  >    you should have said stockpiling weapons, and not simply 
SV>  >    stockpiling.

SV> I did.

     Which makes no difference.  They were in their home.  They 
had a right to own guns and a right to be in the gun business.  
Do you have an objection to that?

SV>  >         Are you in the belief that churches should not be
SV>  >   in the business of buying, and selling weapons, because
SV>  >   that is how it sounds.

SV>  Bingo! :) Why should they? Unless the definition has 
SV>  changed, I believe that churches exist to save souls; not 
SV>  deal with weapons of death.
     
     Is this part of the definition that you would impose upon all 
religions or would you permit people to hold alternate religious 
convictions?  What would be your means of enforcement? 


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (159)
To:      Dave Hankins                           10 May 94 21:47:10
Subject: Subsidies                              

DH>   If you would, throw  up  your  public key on GiwerWorld 
DH>  for me.  I have some info you may  be  very  interested  
DH>  in.   I believe you already have mine...   Thanks.

     Should be there soon.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (160)
To:      All                                    24 May 94 06:25:10
Subject: The Federal Reserve                    

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
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                     The Federal Reserve
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>

     There is a bit of misunderstanding as to what is the Federal
Reserve Board (FRB) and just what are the Federal Reserve Notes
(FRNs) we carry around and call money.  I wish to preface this by
saying it is extremely simple to understand.  At the same time I
want to say that the concepts are so alien when expressed simply
that it is hard to understand.  Thus I will proceed from what
they are to examples that you have most likely done.
     The Federal Reserve is a bookkeeping exercise to enforce
discipline.  What happens is that the federal government issues
debt instruments in order to buy FRNs and agrees to pay off in
FRNs.  The debt instruments are Treasury Bills (T-Bills) and the
government pays interest that is paid back to the FRB.  I am
certain I have lost everyone at this point.
     So now we back up to making a loan or offering to lend
money.  We all have done one or the other over the years.  That
is all that is happening.  What is of interest is how it is
happening.
     When your state or local government offers a bond issue
issue it is offering to borrow money at a market determined rate.
Moody's rates all bond offering organizations by their safety and
and the safer the organization the lower the rate.  This is the
same as a good credit risk getting a lower rate than a bad credit
risk.  It is nothing you don't know about.
     The federal government offers T-Bills which are effectively
bonds and are dealt with on the bond market.  A bond is like you
offering to pay 10 dollars next year for a 9 dollar loan today.
You have never done this?
     Of course you have.  If you have ever taken out a loan you
have offered to pay back more than the value of the loan by the
amount of the interest rate.  The only difference is the way it
is presented.  One can not fault mortgage brokers for not telling
you that you will have to $300,000 in 30 years for $100,000 now.
But if they did it would be a 66.6% discounted bond you have
offered.
     In a mortgage or a car loan you have pledge property.  If
you do not make the payments the banks takes the home or car.
Nothing new there but this is not how the government deals with
the FRB.
     The government dealing with the FRB is more like dealing
with a credit card company.  You pledge no assets; you pledge
your income.  Do not kid yourself it is anything else.  You may
have paid every bill on time for the last 30 years.  If you are
laid off try applying for another card while listing unemployment
as income.
     In dealing with the FRB the government do not pledge assets.
The government pledges income.  Income for the government equals
revenues.  Revenues equals taxes.
     In reality the government pledges its ability to tax you and
me in order to assure the continued printing of FRNs.  
     So what?
     OK here is a "furrinstance."  Does the government wish to
increase its loan based upon income?  It simply increases taxes.
On the good side it can not kill the golden goose so it must
balance taxable income against the tax rate.  That is the only
real argument between the Republicans and the Democrats; where
is the best mix?
     Under this system, be it good or bad in anyone's opinion, we
all want the best deal against other currencies in the world for
our personal mix of taxes and earnings.  I can not imagine the
man who would argue against a 10% increase in taxes for a 20%
increase in earnings.
     The problem is the costs / benefits are illusory to a
fantasy in the mind of the central planner.  And thus the crux of
the issue.
     Why should any person be subject to the whim and decision of
a government employee as to the earnings he should have, the
taxes should pay and the foreign exchange rate changes of a
person who has never earned an honest dollar in his life?
     A long question, too long.  The foreign exchange rate for
our money is controlled by buy up or selling FRNs.  It is
adjusted by some sort of international agreement of what the
exchange rate should be.  That means if Detroit finds a way to
crack the Japan market tomorrow and these white shirts decide it
would adversely affect the yen to dollar exchange ratio they will
move to prevent Detroit from making a profit.
     Whether they would or not is a secondary issue; they have
the power.  I do not recall that being a power ever granted
anyone by the citizens of this country.  Perhaps I missed
something.  I am open to correction.
     The world has gotten more complicated?  Fine.  Lets discuss
the limits of the power we as the people are willing to grant to
the FRB.  Then we may or may not give the federal government the
power to make deals with the FRB.  And if we do not then the FRB
can take their pensions and go home.
     Certainly it would be a rocky transition.  The FRNs would
simply be declared to be a fraction of the federal assets and not
its taxing power.  They will not change in the least in the US
save that they can not be printed beyond inflation.  If
foreigners do not want them then they do not want our goods in
the first place so to hell with them.  We have their currency for
our sales they want what we have, there is an obvious exchange
rate for the two currencies.
     That is exactly what is happening now save that we would not
have the FRB involved in "managing" our economy to do it.
     It is good to remember that the FRB was established with the
express intention of prevention major economic downturns and it
was established before the 1929 Great Depression.  That we have
not had a repetition is not the fault of the FRB.

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (169)
To:      All                                    23 May 94 21:08:10
Subject: Twilight of Liberty                    

 *********** Original       To: ALL
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                     Twilight of Liberty
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/22>

     I know of no person who holds there is any trend towards
increased liberty in the world.  Certainly there is an increase
in freedom, freedom to listen to the latest music style, freedom
to be a vegetarian, freedom to protest global warming. The
liberty to protest anything appears to be vanishing.  There is a
narrowing range of approval of protest in accordance with
government policy.
     Six months ago it was not the policy of the government to
trash the 4th amendment to the constitution.  Six months ago it
was not the policy of the government to make gun owners
criminals.  Six months ago it was not the policy of the
government to pre-empt the power of the states to restore civil
rights.
     I have already written to demonstrate the recent loss of the
4th amendment is nothing new but that it started decades ago and
that each erosion has been in a good cause.  Our rate of loss is
accelerating.
     There is nothing particularly sacred about a way of life
that includes liberty, the freedom of the individual from
government.  Billions live without it, most of those blissfully.
Our interest is in its preservation for ourselves.
     Should we lose it can it arise again?  The rest of the world
is ahead of us in eliminating what liberties they might have had.
While the US turns its back upon liberty so to is the rest of the
world we can have no expectation of the rest of the world turning
around.  Liberty, the right of individual action free from the
government will be lost for a long time.
     Perhaps our ideal of liberty is not the proper model for
human behavior.  That is always a possibility.  All our cant to
self-reliance and personal discipline and rugged individualism
obviously are not shared by the majority in our country.
     Those who are having a hard time in life insist upon the
government making those times easy.  Those who are being harmed
by the government demand better breaks from the government.  Did
we miss something a few centuries ago?
     I consider these valid questions.  I hold they can only be
answered by testing.  This country certainly responded to social
change with a retreat from liberty.
     Were I only challenging concept of liberty and limited
government I would perhaps cave to the idea it has failed.  The
problem with caving is that we have a reversion to a
pre-industrial form of government.  This belies the excuse that
we are not suited for individual liberty.
     We have changed from monarchies to democracies but we have
retreated from the liberty that democracy permits.  We have
substituted a different source for the power to take away
liberty.  We now elect our "monarchs" for a trial period of a
term or two and then send the back for life.  That bypasses the
problem of an accident of birth determining the rulers but it
does not address the entrenchment in power.
     If liberty should disappear from America when can it return?
There are no nations out there to continue the promise, to
continue to demonstrate its benefits.  The true point of
democracy is not that everyone votes.  Rather it is to get a
large enough sample of the population to assure that the nation
is not pushed in one direction at the whim of a small group.
That has always led to the country benefiting only that group.
     What we have lost is absolute limits upon the government
regardless of whether there is a majority vote for it.  A
monarchy can be quite as limited.  The concept embodied in our
lost 4th amendment is contained in the Magna Carta.  Violations
of the Magna Carta lead to revolutions in England.
     If we lose liberty then the world will have to await the
rise of a body of thought regarding the proper form of government
and where it can derive its powers.  It took centuries for the
ideas to arise the first time and another century before there
was an opportunity to test the idea.  And the opportunity took a
revolution.
     A revolution to preserve what will take a revolution to
re-institute is hardly a moral question.  It is only a matter of
timing.  It would appear at this time a revolution could be
peaceful or with a minimum loss of life.  As we can not know the
future it does not appear possible a future revolution could be
less painful.
     The penalty for not acting now is an untold number of
generations enjoying the tyranny of pure majority rule and then a
necessary revolution that can not be bloodless.
     We are coming to the time of making that choice.

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (170)
To:      Jim Higgins                            15 May 94 03:41:10
Subject: Ultimatum                              

JH>  If she can turn out 2 million in uniform and armed she will 
JH>  come thru OK.  At least her cause probably will; she likely 
JH>  will be killed under strange circumstances.  If she turns 
JH>  out only 20,000 then we are all in dead serious effing deep 
JH>  trouble.

     2 million.  The entire metro area counting every one has 
about that many.  So she has a temporary doubling of the local 
population.  I suggest they bring shovels and toilet paper as 
there are not enough toilet facilities for that many.  

     20,000 people, 5000 cars.  Where do they park?  

     Any reasonable number of people to try to do this is can be 
handled by the DC police.

JH>  Sensei say, flee if you can the confrontation you are not 
JH>  sure you can win.  If we declare "war" against the 
JH>  bastards, we better be ready to back it up with everything 
JH>  we have.  The people are not mad enough yet to do that IMO.  
JH>  Despite all those "we're right behind you, Linda" voices, 
JH>  she would be well advised to keep track of how far behind 
JH>  her they really are.  Bring binoculars.

     More realistically a guerrilla war is the only one 
possible.  Shut down all federal offices except social security 
and the post office -- there is no need to make enemies, besides 
the cash flow is needed.  Every state or local agency that 
cooperates with the Feds is shut down.  

     The last thing to do is put an armed force in the field.  
That is saved until we have the strength to win.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (171)
To:      Phillip Jones                          15 May 94 03:56:10
Subject: ultimatum                              

PJ> BB>  Hmmm, it appears to me that you haven't been reading the 
PJ> BB>  mail the last couple of days in some of the other echos.  It 
PJ> BB>  would appear that the interest in this subject has indeed 
PJ> BB>  picked up quite a bit of interest.

PJ>  This is the only "general interest" echo I read regularly.  
PJ>  But I do read 2-3 different newspapers a day, and listen to 
PJ>  several news broadcasts, and haven't heardb a peep out of 
PJ>  those media.

     Have you mailed them hard copies?


---
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (172)
To:      Jackie Bradbury                        12 May 94 22:52:10
Subject: Unreasonable Searches                  

JB> MG>       I got a little bit more on it.  It is apparently 
JB> MG>  contained in some bill in Congress.  I have not found which 
JB> MG>  bill or where it stands.  All info shared.

JB>  Keep us informed - after finals (next week), I'm gonna be 
JB>  so campaign oriented I won't be thinking of much else.

     It is now next week.  Are you still alive or simply in 
terminal exhaustion.  It is unfortunate we have adopted a boot 
camp form of education instead of an apprenticeship form.

JB> MG>       Lose me now or lose me later.  We are passed the point 
JB> MG>  where there is any hope of turning this around.  The only 
JB> MG>  hope left is that enough people will express their 
JB> MG>  determination regarding such matters and scare the gov 
JB> MG>  off.

JB>  Y'know, hubby & I are convinced, due to evidence here, on 
JB>  talk radio, and from just regular folks we meet, we are now 
JB>  intering a period of "low level panic".  Folks are getting 
JB>  scared, Matt - and mad.  Slowly, surely.  One by one.

     That is my observation exactly.

JB> MG>      Unfortunately that is only putting off the inevitable.

JB>  Well, I meant be careful in a smart, Matt Giwer way, not a 
JB>  stupid Linda Thompson way.  I.E., if you're gonna do it, 
JB>  stay around long enough to do it right - one HK cop does 
JB>  not equal one MG, know what I mean?

     Don't worry about that.  In a direct confrontation I am 
known to be smart in spite of the most devout intentions.  I am 
working on what to shut down and what to leave operating in the 
course of a revolution.  For example all (federal) government 
buildings are shut down.  The IRS is shut down.  Social Security 
is left open as is the Post Office to deliver the checks.

     "A bomb threat a day keeps the workers away."  And relaxes 
security to the point where a real bomb goes off.  The revolution 
will take years, not weeks.  365 bomb threats will make any 
security force yawn.  

JB> MG>       They are up against a disarm populace courtesy of the 
JB> MG>  British.  They have a shock in store for them.

JB>  No kidding.  BTW: heard today that Bobbies are going to 
JB>  carry guns in London.  Rising crime rate, y'know - is that 
JB>  _possible_ without guns? (sarcasm intended)

     Of course it is foreign, American style violence so it not 
really their fault.  Obviously they pacified Ireland 400 years 
ago.

JB> MG>       I will not excuse people failing to think.  And from 
JB> MG>  2.5 years of driving a cab and plenty of black passenger 
JB> MG>  who requested me it is only the black "leaders" who are 
JB> MG>  saying these things.  I met a few taking advantage of the 
JB> MG>  system.  Most you could not tell from Walter Williams.  And 
JB> MG>  none of the above had anything good to say about the 
JB> MG>  "leaders."

JB>  Agreed.  We have a black man in the lead for the Republican 
JB>  nomination in our Congressional District.  I'm interested 
JB>  to see how this turns out.

     In 1988 in Virginia I voted for two blacks and that includes 
the ex-governor.  Wilder talked a good case until he got in 
office.  (Partisan politics in Virginia [had] little to do with 
national party affiliation at the time.)

JB> MG>      Between elections get a hack license and meet them.

JB>  Y'know, I've thought about doing that, but to be honest, 
JB>  I'd be scared to.

     A little street smarts and the company will help you out.  
It is the 8th most dangerous profession but that really isn't all 
that high.

JB> MG> JB>  I'm not so sure that's a total loss yet.  Give me a couple
JB> MG> JB>  more election cycles to decide for sure.  But I will agree
JB> MG> JB>  that it looks bad.
JB> MG>
JB> MG>       I have already given it a couple more election cycles.  
JB> MG>  You are not required to be an old fart cynic like me.  You 
JB> MG>  are simply invited to name one election that has changed 
JB> MG>  anything.

JB>  Um, Thomas Jefferson's?  Between TJ and Burr?  Lincoln's, 
JB>  maybe?

     Kennedy/Goldwater was my first.  

JB>  Other than that, no, not one single one - it's a cumulative 
JB>  thing that makes for positive change.  That's another 
JB>  reason why I'm a manager and not a candidate.   It's better 
JB>  to get 8 good folks or more elected than just myself.

     If everyone waits as long as I have they will be like me, 
too old to go into the field and the those that are young enough 
will still be waiting.     

JB> MG>       So far as I am aware there are only two Libertarian 
JB> MG>  candidates in the Tampa Bay area.  I don't see a difference 
JB> MG>  between real and candidate.  Viable?  I expect to find out 
JB> MG>  soon.

JB>  Research will tell.  I mean a "real" candidate as in "I 
JB>  want to win".

     Three weeks between an offer to make colorful handouts and 
zero response.  You can't argue free but he did not accept the 
offer.

JB> MG>       There always are.  I have a set of political GIFs that 
JB> MG>  I am looking for distribution cites for.  Even in my humble 
JB> MG>  opinion

JB>  Get in touch with Ron Krickenberger of the National LP; 
JB>  he's in Atlanta - he's the LP campaign director.  He may be 
JB>  able to use it or connect you with folks who can.

     Will look for him.  Do you have a BBS number?  I am 
surprised I have not heard of him as I am as well connected 
BBS-wise in Atlanta as I am in this area.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (173)
To:      George Rudzinski                       13 May 94 04:12:10
Subject: Waco                                   

GR>  DB> Changing the name?  They are flashbangs, that's all.

GR>  JW> They were originally called "stun grenades".

GR>  Doesn't much matter what you call them, they are still 
GR>  flashbangs.
GR> 
GR>  If the BATF went into that compound wanting to kill people, 
GR>  flashbangs wouldn't be the grenade of choice.

     Nor does it matter what you wish to call them.  The 
certainly rupture ear drums.  They certainly can induce fatal 
grand mal seizures.  They certainly are intended to disorient 
people, maybe enough to think the person throwing them means them 
harm.  

     When you are on the receiving or when you are willing to 
respond as though they had achieved their intended purpose you 
will have something legitimate to post.  



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (174)
To:      All                                    11 May 94 03:38:10
Subject: WACO SPEECH                            

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: RICHARD SANFORD
 * STOLEN *             To: ALL
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 05/07/94 - 0001234
 **********             On: GUNTALK - 0012 - GENPOL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

DRAFT OF SPEECH GIVEN BY RICHARD SANFORD AT WACO MASSACRE
       PROTEST IN LAFAYETTE PARK, 19 APRIL 1994

A little over a year ago, on February 28, 1993, I was
reading some messages on an electronic bulletin board.  The
last message said, "I just turned on the TV and saw ATF
agents break down a door and shoot a little kid."  I turned
on my TV and, sure enough, a gun battle near Waco was
dominating the news.   A hundred police were shooting at a
church home said to contain a hundred evil armed cultists --
men, women, and children.  I wondered, "What could they
possibly have done to deserve that?"

Since then I have been very interested in what happened
there at Waco.  I don't like what I have learned.

First of all, the ATF, our Federal Gun Control Police, were
unwilling to serve their search and arrest warrants
peacefully; they had decided on a violent raid, no matter
what.  The plan was to chase away or kill the dogs, break in
doors and windows, throw in hand grenades, charge into the
house, hold the Davidians at gunpoint, search the premises,
and arrest David Koresh.  And all this destruction and
injury and death-threats were if they met no resistance
whatsoever.  Even if their search had found no evidence of
wrongdoing, they would have taught those God-damned cultists
a lesson!  Innocent people were placed at risk, including
children whose only crime was to be born into a non-approved
religion.  Sounds like a government hate crime to me.

Imagine this in your home.  Maybe they suspect that your
father smuggled a captured AK-47 assault rifle home during
the Viet Nam War.  Police shoot the family dog, throw
grenades through the windows, break in the door, hold the
survivors at gunpoint, and search for something someone in
the family may have that he shouldn't have.  The search
process is more punishing than the penalty if convicted, and
the injuries are spread equally among the suspect and the
innocent who associate with him.  Is this justice?

Before the raiders reached the front door, Koresh came out,
unarmed, to talk with them.  He was shot at.  He ducked back
inside.  A hail of bullets ripped through the door and walls
after him, wounding him twice, and wounding others who were
near him.  This suggests that the raid was intended as an
assassination attempt, if not a massacre.  How can you
justify shooting at an unarmed suspect who comes out to
talk?  I am convinced that the wrong people were on trial.

And now we come to that last day, the day of the fire, one
year ago today.  There is ample evidence that the plan was
to gas the Davidians, knowing that there were no gas masks
to fit the infants and small children.  The plan was that
the government would gas the children, and the adult
suspects would have to bring the innocent children out to put an end to
the torture, and be captured in the process. In other words, people who
were known to be innocent were to be tortured as hostages, so that the
suspects would give themselves up to save them.  Is this justice?  Can
this possibly be legal, here in the United States of America?

This was not some spur-of-the-moment decision in the heat of
battle.  It was deliberate.  It was recommended by high
officials of the FBI.  It was approved by the Attorney
General of the United States.  It was approved by President
Clinton himself.

What is this country coming to?


 * SLMR 2.1a * Don't gas Chelsea, even if Bill is a murderer!
--- MMGR v3.52
 * GUN-TALK GENeral POLitics Conference
                                                                               
               
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (177)
To:      Ann Ross                               19 May 94 02:38:10
Subject: What makes a SIN a S              

AR>  Da> -----[ First Scot Vertullo Said: ]-----
AR>  > As long as I'm not harming others then I have a right to do it. I
AR>  > repeat: "If you don't *like* my homosexuality, tough...adjust to it."
AR>  Da> -----[ My Reply: ]-----

AR>  Da> You don't have a right to spout off about how you are a
AR>  Da> homosexual, just as I don't have the right to spout off
AR>  Da> about how I'm straight.

AR>         The Constitution gives you both freedom of speech.  Learn to
AR>         live with it because you canNOT change it.

     As you have been corrected before, the Constitution GIVES us 
nothing.  It prevents the government from infringing pre-existing 
rights.  That is why it is phrased as it is.  But you know that.  
You simply enjoy playing the asshole.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (178)
To:      All                                    10 May 94 16:32:10
Subject: When they came for                     

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0648 - USA Politic-U
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     [I came across the tail end of something like this and never 
could find the complete post, so here is a recreation.  I later 
found the original but it had to do with the holocaust and there 
is no evidence the person it is attributed to ever said it.]

     When they came for the eighth amendment I did not speak for I 
was was not arrested.

     When they came for the seventh amendment I did not speak for 
I was not for I was not on trial.  [seizure of the property of 
the innocent]

     When they came for the sixth amendment I did not speak for I 
was not accused.  [imprisonment for being a material witness]

     When they came for the fifth amendment I did not speak for I
was not being tried twice for the same charge.  [Civil rights 
persecutions, environmental restrictions]

     When they came for the fourth amendment I did not speak for I
had nothing to hide.  [Chicago]

     When they came for the third amendment I did not speak for
there were no soldiers in my home.  

     When they came for the second amendment I did not speak for
I had no gun.  [Brady and Feinstein bills]

     When they came for the first amendment I could not speak.  
[government approved religions]

=====

     Many other examples could be presented.

     The time is nigh.  


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (208)
To:      All                                    24 May 94 23:56:10
Subject: A new conference                       

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: T-RECALL
 ***********              Conf: 0250 - FN-FSPEECH
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                              12-BBS

     A new echo is seeking backbone status.  This echo is 
dedicated to using a 12 step program to help people kick their 
BBSing habit.  Please request your Sysop to carry it today.


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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (215)
To:      All                                    25 May 94 00:32:10
Subject: Fight Back!                            

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: T-RECALL
 ***********              Conf: 0255 - FN-RUSHL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

 **********  Original From: HARRY WANG
 * STOLEN *             To: THOMAS JEFFERSON
 *  STUFF *    Date/Number: 05/13/94 - 0003631
 **********             On: T-RECALL - 0255 - FN-RUSHL
-----------------------------------------------------------------------


PRO-GUNNERS MAKE THIS CALL!!

1-800-949-4867

Help fight Sarah Brady and Handgun Control Inc. and it costs you
nothing!  Call HCI's toll-free Info Hot-Line from as many different
phone numbers as possible.  Since it's an 800 number, THEY pay for the
call--about 20 cents per minute--80 cents per full length call.  Also,
you might want to play along with their recorded message and leave your
name and number. This will cost them additional funds to send out your
info kit. (Resist the temptation to cuss them out, or they won't send
you the mailing.) Since so many pro-gunners have been calling HCI has
set their equipment to only accept one phone call from each telephone
number, so call from pay phones or whatever.

This tactic works! The gay community allegedly ran up a $2 million 800#
phone bill and bankrupted Jerry Falwell's Moral Majority.

Another expense-generating thing you can do is write for information
from Handgun Control Inc., 1225 Eye St., NW Ste.  1000, Washington, DC
20005.  Your cost is .19 or .29 cents for stamp, and in return HCI
reportedly spends from $3 to $4 in printing and postage to respond,
plus they send you a postage prepaid response envelope that costs them
another 48 cents...you get the idea.  Someone suggested sending them
back the reply envelope with heavy 1/2 inch washers (costs more to mail
y'know...)

Freedom Fighters MAKE THAT CALL!

Info given here is rewritten posts from various sources. Repost freely.

- Pedit Ver 1.9a

--- ProBoard v2.01 [Reg]
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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (225)
To:      All                                    24 May 94 23:34:10
Subject: NAZI DRUG PROFILES                     

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: SOFTWARE
 ***********              Conf: 0018 - S-DEATH&TAXES
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                   The Secret Drug Profile
                               by
                           Matt Giwer (c) 1994 <5/24>

     Some decades ago in Germany there was an organization that
made an issue of determining who was Aryan and who was subhuman.
They had a long list of physical factors to make this
determination.  They were able to determine that an undesirable
person was in fact a non-Aryan.  
     They were infallible in their use of this technique.  It had
been developed to a fine art over the decades.  It justified the
determination regardless of any external factors save party
connections.
     To day we do not think much of the Nazi system of measuring
the size and shape of the skull, length of the jaw and slope of
the forehead.  We have this sneaking suspicion that they had so
many characteristics they could pick and choose any they want to
make their case.  We are certainly it was all up to the judgement
of the "expert" making the determination as to which
characteristics were important.
     At least they made their "profile" public.
     Today we have the police and our federal government using a
secret profile that has defied all court attempts to have it
released.  The use of the profile is left in the hands of
experts.  Looking at the wide variation of the people to whom it
has been applied it appears the secret profile must contain
characteristics such as breathing and not being brain dead.
     This profile is for drug traffickers.  It has been used
against seedy looking Columbians speaking no English with one way
tickets.  It has been used against multi-millionaires.  It has
been used against teenagers and businessmen.  It has been used
against people with no luggage and too much luggage.  It is
difficult to imagine a group that has not been found non-Aryan.
     Of course our police are expert in this system and are not
prey to the errors of personal judgement.  In fact they even use
of numeric rating system for each characteristic.  If there are
enough points in the secret system then there is no blame to the
"drug security forces" if it results in the death of a
multi-millionaire whose source of wealth is well known.  After
all his wife was spending a lot of $100 bills.
     We are not as "honest" as the Nazis.  We keep our profile a
secret.  It does not really matter because we would never succumb
to the self serving misuse of the Nazis.
     Of course we must ask if we are any better.

                            * * * * *

      Further distribution is encouraged by the author.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (226)
To:      All                                    24 May 94 17:46:10
Subject: News you may have missed               

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: MERCOPUS
 ***********              Conf: 0012 - Baychat-F
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

                   Washington Times 18 May 1994

Clinton was in no scheme to defraud SBA, Hale says

     David L. Hale, now a government witness in the 
Whitewater-Madison investigation, has told federal authorities of 
an elaborate scheme involving a questionable $300,000 government 
-guaranteed loan he says was sought by President Clinton.

     Hale, who has been under periodic FBI protection since his 
guilty plea in an unrelated fraud case, has outlines the plot 
during interviews with investigators and in repeated sessions 
before a federal grand jury in Little Rock, according to law 
enforcement sources.

...

     Hale has told authorities the scheme included the diversion 
of $525,000 from Mr. McDougal's now-defunct Madison Guaranty 
Savings and Loan Association to an SBA-licensed lending agency 
Hale owned as leverage for a government backed $300,000 loan in 
1986 to Mr. McDougal's wife, Susan, the sources said.

...

     Hale has accused Mr. Clinton and Mr. McDougal of pressuring 
him for the loan, saying the three men met in February and March 
1986 to work out details on how it could be approved.  He said 
they decided to use Mrs. McDougal as the loan applicant because 
her being a woman would make approval easier.

...

     At the time, Hale added, he was unaware of Mr. Clinton's and 
Mr. McDougal's ownership of the Whitewater venture.

... 

     Hale's attorney, Randy Coleman, has said everyone involved 
in the loan -- Mr. Clinton, Mr. McDougal and his client -- knew 
Madison did not qualify for an SBA-guaranteed loan.  He said it 
was made out to Mrs. McDougal in her capacity as president of 
Master Marketing Inc., an advertising firm, in order to show a 
woman as the nominee borrower.    

...

     The scheme is similar to one in which Hale pleaded guilty 
last month to two counts of defrauding the government.  ...  He 
was charged with conspiracy and making false statements to 
influence the SBA for funding to allow Capital-Management to make 
additional loans.

Leach:  RTC may fire prober

     Rep. Jim Leach, Republican point man on the 
Whitewater-Madison affair, says he fears the government's chief 
investigator is about to lose her job.

     Mr. Leach, ranking GOP member on the House Banking 
Committee, said yesterday he is concerned that the contract of 
Jean Lewis may not be renewed when it comes up in June.

...

     Mrs. Lewis' belief that Whitewater took $1.5 million out of 
Madison in a check-kiting scheme has helped to convince Mr. Leach 
crimes may have been committed.



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From:    Matt Giwer                             Area: Controv - (244)
To:      All                                    24 May 94 21:59:10
Subject: WE HAVE A VP                           

 *********** Original       To: ALL
 * SILICON *      was       By: MATT GIWER
 *  DUPE   *   posted:      On: AUTODOC
 ***********              Conf: 0109 - Debate
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

     I have been hearing the reason Clinton should be immune from 
a civil suit is that it will occupy too much of his time.

     Pardon me.  Don't we have a vice president?  Clinton can 
simply turn over his duties to Gore for the duration of the law 
suit or whenever he is incapable of putting the country ahead of 
his personal life.


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