The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sun Sep 15 10:28:25 PDT 1996
Article: 101055 of alt.censorship
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From: bud 
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Subject: you're both missing point
Date: Sun, 15 Sep 1996 12:38:52 -0700
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octinomos wrote:
> 
> In article , joconnel@gil.com.au (Dan
> Gihoni) wrote:
> 
> | What proof is there that these people lived 900 years or more??
> 
> i never said there was evidence, i'm merely pointing out the details
> of the fictional account--and furthermore, there's plenty of events
> repeating at various points of the story and not in any chronological
> order, so the emphasis again is on the essence of the story and not
> its accuracy and coherence--we know now it is very flawed on both those counts.
> 
> but that does not mean we can't derive knowledge from it.

The burden of proof is on you to prove the writer is a liar.  This also 
holds true about it being a fictional work, when the writer claims it to 
be historical (as did Jesus Himself according to the New Testament).  You 
are questioning the veracity of the writer -- It's up TO YOU TO PROVE it 
is not true.  You can draw whatever conclusions you wish from modern-day 
knowlege, but this is a historical matter and must be investigated in 
that manner (if possible), not by what you "believe".  I doubt that you 
will be able to prove or disprove the veracity of the rendition, since 
nearly all evidences are no longer available.  Remember now, we are 
talking about "historical facts".
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sun Sep 29 14:20:06 PDT 1996
Article: 103173 of alt.censorship
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.censorship,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.culture.internet,alt.culture.usenet,alt.fashion,alt.magick,alt.mindcontrol,alt.nuke.the.USA,alt.pagan,alt.psychoative,alt.religion.scientology,alt.sa
Subject: at last, someone with a brain!
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 16:08:43 -0700
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Stephen Hicks wrote:
> 
> The answer to your argument is to simply say I don't owe you $10,000.
> It simply your word against mine. BUT, if one of us has some proof, then
> the story is different.
> 
> All the talk in this n.g. is about superfical things. I have had proof
> that God exists. Evidence displayed, carried out, things that have
> happened (and I don't mean wishy-washy things) that confirm that God
> does exist.
> 
> All your ranting are as nothing. I have proof. You, my friend, I'm sorry
> to say, seem only to have words.
> 
> Wayne Delia wrote:
> >
> > In <323C5B4C.160@mail.gte.net>, bud  writes:
> > >The burden of proof is on you to prove the writer is a liar.  This also
> > >holds true about it being a fictional work, when the writer claims it to
> > >be historical (as did Jesus Himself according to the New Testament).  You
> > >are questioning the veracity of the writer -- It's up TO YOU TO PROVE it
> > >is not true.
> >
> > You owe me $10,000. The burden of proof is on you to prove you don't owe me
> > $10,000. If you can't prove you don't owe me $10,000, please make your
> > check payable to the Joseph and Lisa Delia College Fund.
> >
> > Wayne Delia, redsox3@ibm.net
> > "I think a good way to know there's a curse on you is if you open a box
> > of toothpicks, and they all fly up and stick in your face." - Jack Handey
> 
> --
> Cheers,
> Stephen Hicks                           (shicks@mailhost.world.net)
> "As for my family and I, we will follow God"

That's all, the subject line says it.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sun Sep 29 16:39:46 PDT 1996
Article: 103179 of alt.censorship
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From: bud 
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Subject: apologetic pt 6
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 1996 16:34:49 -0700
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HazChem wrote:
> 
> In article <3247B944.7D8A@mailhost.world.net>, Stephen Hicks
>  wrote:
> 
> > The answer to your argument is to simply say I don't owe you $10,000.
> > It simply your word against mine. BUT, if one of us has some proof, then
> > the story is different.
> >
> > All the talk in this n.g. is about superfical things. I have had proof
> > that God exists. Evidence displayed, carried out, things that have
> > happened (and I don't mean wishy-washy things) that confirm that God
> > does exist.
> >
> > All your ranting are as nothing. I have proof. You, my friend, I'm sorry
> > to say, seem only to have words.
> 
> You have proof?  Post it, or shut up.
> 
> --
> HAZARDOUS CHEMICAL http://www.clarityconnect.com/webpages/hazchem/hazchem.html
> "Cynic, n.  A blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be."  (Ambrose Bierce, _The Devil's Dictionary_)
> *******************************************************************
> If you agree with these posts, they are my opinions.  If you disagree with them, they are the opinions of Microsoft Corporation.

Continuing with the overview of the THEORY of Evolution we will take a 
brief look at Geological Evolution.  Geology is the scientific study of 
the earth's crust and its strata.  In the most recent years most 
geologists have successfully promoted the idea that the earth is millions 
of years old.  The basis used to draw this conclusion is PREDICATED on 
the BELIEF that the origin and development of all things can be explained 
in terms of natural laws and processes OPERATING TODAY (the key to the 
past is the present).  This belief or principle is known as 
UNIFORITARIANISM.  This belief DOES NOT ALLOW for the cataclysmic and 
catastrophic effects that could bring about "sudden changes" in the 
earth's strata.  Naturally, this would exclude belief in the worldwide 
(Noahic) flood.

2 Peter 3:3  Know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will 
come with their mocking, following after their own lusts, 4  and saying, 
"Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell 
asleep, all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation." 5  
For when they maintain this, it escapes their notice that by the word of 
God the heavens existed long ago and the earth was formed out of water 
and by water, 6  through which the world at that time was destroyed, 
being flooded with water.

In the above verses is found a very apt prediction of this belief now 
known as Uniformitarianism.  It would seem as though Peter knew this 
system was coming almost 2000 years ago.  

Based on the ASSUMPTIONS of uniformitarianism and organic Evolution as 
being scientific fact, geologists during the 19th century began to 
compile the geological column.  They arbitrarily arranged the earth's 
strata according to the various fossils they contained.  Under this 
system strata with simpler fossils (PRESUMED to have evolved first) were 
put on the bottom of the column while strata containing the more complex 
forms of life (PRESUMED to have evolved later) were placed toward the top 
of the column.  Very convenient ASSUMPTIONS to go along with their 
already predisposed idea.

The most important aspect of geology in relation to Biblical studies is 
the historical aspect.  "Historical" geologists claim to be able to 
decipher the supposed long evolutionary period of the earth and its 
inhabitants from their study of the earth's sedimentary crust and the 
fossils contained in them.  However, whether admitted to or not, this is 
strictly SPECULATIVE HISTORY.  To the Bible-believing Christian this is 
very important because it contradicts the very first chapters of the 
Bible.  Anything the elucidates origins is necessarily of a PHILOSOPHICAL 
and THEOLOGICAL interest.  Also, there are strong implications regarding 
meanings, purposes and destinies of life. 

The real problem today is that even though the basic framework of 
"historical" geology has not changed to the present time, there has now 
arisen a group of self-styled "specialists" in historical geology who 
attempt to regard with contempt any who would "dare" to write or speak in 
this field without first giving allegiance to THEIR accepted SYSTEM OF 
UNIFORMITARINISM.  The fact that by its nature historical geology IS NOT 
AND NEVER CAN BE A GENUINE SCIENCE is unacceptable to them.  Therefore, 
the dogmatic insistence that all must follow the so-called accepted 
system of interpretation is nothing less than scientism.  The proof of 
this is evident: read some of the replies to these postings and you will 
see a consistence barrage of attacks on Creationism and Creationists as 
being unscientific, biased, (and even worse remarks), but hardly ever is 
the real issue or evidence mentioned or considered.  Generally just the 
usual adhomenim attacks, and even in some cases rejecting those 
Evolutionists who disagree with them or admit to the shortcomings of 
their proposal.  The old logical fallacy of "real authorities agree with 
me" is a nearly constant response from this particular group.  

Like it or not, admitted to or not, when a geologist (or anyone, 
Creationists included) seeks to become a "historical" geologist and 
interpret origins they are LEAVING THE REALM OF SCIENCE AND ENTERING INTO 
PHILOSOPHY OR RELIGION.  The presently accepted system of historical 
geology is basically nothing else than a philosophy or religion of 
Evolutionary uniformitarinism.  The majority of the dictionaries define 
"science" as a branch of study that is concerned either with a connected 
body of DEMONSTRATED TRUTHS or with OBSERVED FACTS systematically 
classified and more or less colligated by being brought under general 
laws.  This is a rather formal definition, but it generally agrees with 
the dictionaries.  With way you might want to define it, science is not 
(or should not be) inference, speculation, or extrapolation.  By 
necessity, true science is limited to the measurement and study of 
PRESENT PHENOMENA AND PROCESSES.  Data that has been observed in the 
present, or that have been recorded by human OBSERVERS in the historic 
past, are properly called scientific data.  Likewise, laws that have been 
deduced from these data, that satisfactorily correlates the pertinent 
data, and that have predictive value for the correlation of similar data 
obtained from experiments IN THE FUTURE, are properly regarded as 
scientific laws.

The problem with uniformitarianism is that there is NO WAY OF KNOWING 
that these processes and laws that describe them have ALWAYS BEEN THE 
SAME or that they WILL ALWAYS BE THE SAME IN THE FUTURE.  One can make a 
choice to ASSUME this is so, and this BELIEF and ASSUMPTION is the 
doctrine of unformitarianism.  Perhaps it is reasonable and even safe to 
extrapolate on this basis for a certain period of time into the future 
and the past.  However, to insist that uniformitarianism is the ONLY 
SCIENTIFIC APPROACH to the understanding of all past and future time is 
NOTHING BUT A DOGMATIC TENET (BELIEF) OF A PARTICULAR FORM OF DOCTRINE.  
The principle of uniformitarianism is a philosophy (or faith--like that 
word or not!) by which it is HOPED that these processes of the present 
can be extrapolated into the distant past and the distant future to 
explain all that has happened and to predict what will happen in the 
future. 

The Bible-believing Christian then, proposes that the only way we can 
ever know about creation and origins is that it would have to come, if at 
all, by special revelation from the Creator (God).  Why?  Because He was 
there.  Now admitted before was that here too a "faith" is being 
exercised.  

The real question then would seem to be "who has a better basis for their 
faith?"  

Think this over and notice the fallacy.  The assumption of Evolution 
being true is used to age the fossils and then the fossils are used to 
age the earth, etc.  This is circular reasoning.  The entire geological 
column is based on the ASSUMPTION that organic evolution is true.  The 
basis for putting rock formations in chronological order is their fossil 
content.  The fossils in turn are ASSIGNED a specific time period based 
on the ASSUMED evolutionary progress of life.  Yet here are the facts to 
consider about this ASSUMPTION:  (1)  The ONLY basis for biological 
evolution is the fossil record thus constructed.  (2)  the ASSUMPTION of 
evolution is used to arrange the sequence of the fossils,  (3) then this 
sequence is advanced as proof of evolution!  This is a pure case of 
absolute circular reasoning--where the ASSUMPTION of the truth of a 
proposition is used as proof of the validity of that very assumption.  

DISCREPANCIES IN THE GEOLOGICAL COLUMN:  (1) Nowhere in the world does 
the geological column exist.  Even the Grand Canyon has only about half 
of these geological systems.  This would mean that in the Grand Canyon 
there are over 100 million years of this IMAGINED column missing.  (2)  
Man-made artifacts have been found in these columns, some of them in 
layers supposed to be formed hundreds of millions of years before man 
"evolved."  (3)  Rock formations in Utah, Kentucky, Missouri, have 
revealed human-like footprints that are supposedly 150-600 million years 
old, making the evolutionary chronology drastically wrong.  (4)  There 
are findings of human footprints alongside dinosaur prints found in 
Mexico, New Mexico, Arizona, Missouri, Kentucky, Illinois.  (5)  In 
Arizona and Rhodesia pictures of dinosaurs have been found drawn on the 
walls of caves.  (6) In 1968 William Meister found (in Utah) fossils of 
several trilobites in the fossilized, sandaled footprint of a man.  
According to the geological column's evolutionary timetable, trilobites 
became extinct about 230 million years before man.  (7)  According to the 
column's evolutionary timetable the Archaeopteryx became extinct about 
130 million years ago.  Yet in ancient Mayan sculptures there have been 
found replicas of this type of bird.  (8)  Archaeologists have found 
etchings of the five-toed llamas.  A species supposed to have become 
extinct 30 million years ago.
There are a lot more discrepancies, but the above mentioned should make 
the point.
End part six.  In part seven we will take a brief look at radioactive 
dating methods and some evidences for the earth being much younger than 
claimed by some Evolutionists.

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)



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