The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/f/fleisher.bud/1996/fleisher.0896


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  1 06:10:20 PDT 1996
Article: 54758 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: webster definitifon of Semite
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:36:50 -0700
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Michael Swihart wrote:
> =

> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> >
> > >In <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> >
> > >Classic straw man -- an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > >can easily be struck down.  Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > >--  not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you.  Anti-Semite has a specific
> > >meaning.  it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800's by
> > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings.  Webster: a
> > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> >
> >         "Anti-Semite" Anyone hostile to Jews,  might be a dictionary
> > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
> =

> By similar reasoning, one could also say that the "Big Ten" has ten
> universities and the "Midwest" is in the western part of the USA.
> =

> (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
> =

> As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> invented the misnomer.
> =

> M.Swihart
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.

Here's the Webster definition of Semite.  Anyone want to dispute with =

them send them a letter!

Sem-ite (sem'iet; esp. Brit. see'miet)  n. =

                  1.  a member of a people speaking a Semitic =

                       language.
                  2.  a member of any of the peoples descended =

                       from Shem, the eldest son of Noah.
             [1870-75; < NL semita < LL Sem (< Gk S=E9m < Heb =

             Shem SHEM) + -ita - ITE 1]
-- =

"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  1 06:10:21 PDT 1996
Article: 54759 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: definition of Semitic
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:38:25 -0700
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Michael Swihart wrote:
> 
> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> >
> > >In <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> >
> > >Classic straw man -- an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > >can easily be struck down.  Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > >--  not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you.  Anti-Semite has a specific
> > >meaning.  it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800's by
> > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings.  Webster: a
> > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> >
> >         "Anti-Semite" Anyone hostile to Jews,  might be a dictionary
> > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
> 
> By similar reasoning, one could also say that the "Big Ten" has ten
> universities and the "Midwest" is in the western part of the USA.
> 
> (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
> 
> As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> invented the misnomer.
> 
> M.Swihart
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.

Webster's definition.  Want to dispute this, send them a letter!
Se-mit-ic (suh mit'ik)  n. 
                  1.  a family of languages, a branch of the 
                       Afroasiatic family, comprising a number 
                       of ancient and modern languages of SW 
                       Asia and Africa, as Akkadian, Aramaic, 
                       Hebrew, Arabic, and Amharic.
              adj. 
                  2.  of or pertaining to the Semitic languages 
                       or their speakers.
             [< NL semiticus = semit (a) SEMITE + -icus - IC]
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  1 06:10:22 PDT 1996
Article: 54794 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: finally...!
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:45:32 -0700
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Michael Swihart wrote:
> 
> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> >
> > >In <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> >
> > >Classic straw man -- an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > >can easily be struck down.  Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > >--  not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you.  Anti-Semite has a specific
> > >meaning.  it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800's by
> > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings.  Webster: a
> > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> >
> >         "Anti-Semite" Anyone hostile to Jews,  might be a dictionary
> > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
> 
> By similar reasoning, one could also say that the "Big Ten" has ten
> universities and the "Midwest" is in the western part of the USA.
> 
> (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
> 
> As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> invented the misnomer.

If you don't know who "invented" this "misnomer" how do you know 
he/she/it/they were/are "Jew-hater's?"  Get real and drop the persecution 
complex everytime somebody tells some truth in relation to you or your 
selction religion.  Christians have to deal with it all the time.


> M.Swihart
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.	
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  1 06:10:23 PDT 1996
Article: 54802 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: definition of anti-semite
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:41:22 -0700
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Michael Swihart wrote:
> 
> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> >
> > >In <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> >
> > >Classic straw man -- an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > >can easily be struck down.  Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > >--  not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you.  Anti-Semite has a specific
> > >meaning.  it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800's by
> > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings.  Webster: a
> > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> >
> >         "Anti-Semite" Anyone hostile to Jews,  might be a dictionary
> > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
> 
> By similar reasoning, one could also say that the "Big Ten" has ten
> universities and the "Midwest" is in the western part of the USA.
> 
> (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
> 
> As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> invented the misnomer.
> 
> M.Swihart
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.

Here's Webster's definition of the term.  Problems with it, send them a 
letter!
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  1 16:43:22 PDT 1996
Article: 54874 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: was Jesus a Bigot?
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 15:12:07 -0700
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Jay McCullough wrote:
> 
> >I think we can solve all your problems
> with the (mis???) usage of the word anti-semite Bud.
> How about we just settle for bigot?
> 
> Webster
> 
> Bigot
> 1. one who is unreasonably and blindly attached
> to a particular creed, church church party or opinion.
> 
> 2. one who is bitterly intolerant of the opinions of others

13  "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut 
off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, 
nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14  <"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour 
widows' houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers; 
therefore you shall receive greater condemnation.>
15  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel 
about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you 
make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16  "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, 
that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is 
obligated.'
17  "You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the 
temple that sanctified the gold?
18  "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever 
swears by the offering upon it, he is obligated.'
19  "You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar 
that sanctifies the offering?
20  "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and 
by everything on it.
21  "And he who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by 
Him who dwells within it.
22  "And he who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by 
Him who sits upon it.
23  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint 
and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the 
law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you 
should have done without neglecting the others.
24  "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the 
outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery 
and self-indulgence.
26  "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the 
dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like 
whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they 
are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
28  "Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you 
are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the 
tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30  and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would 
not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31  "Consequently you bear witness against yourselves, that you are sons 
of those who murdered the prophets.
32  "Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33  "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence 
of hell?
34  "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and 
scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you 
will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35  that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on 
earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the 
son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36  "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this 
generation.

sound familiar?  Sound "bigotted?  Not very tolerant, is it?

> 
> 3 (pay special attention here Bud) one who is odiously hostile
> to people of a different race religion etc.

You pay attention, Jay.

13  "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut 
off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, 
nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14  <"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour 
widows' houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers; 
therefore you shall receive greater condemnation.>
15  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel 
about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you 
make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16  "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, 
that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is 
obligated.'
17  "You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the 
temple that sanctified the gold?
18  "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever 
swears by the offering upon it, he is obligated.'
19  "You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar 
that sanctifies the offering?
20  "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and 
by everything on it.
21  "And he who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by 
Him who dwells within it.
22  "And he who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by 
Him who sits upon it.
23  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint 
and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the 
law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you 
should have done without neglecting the others.
24  "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the 
outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery 
and self-indulgence.
26  "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the 
dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like 
whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they 
are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
28  "Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you 
are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the 
tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30  and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would 
not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31  "Consequently you bear witness against yourselves, that you are sons 
of those who murdered the prophets.
32  "Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33  "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence 
of hell?
34  "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and 
scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you 
will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35  that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on 
earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the 
son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36  "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this 
generation.

Sound familiar again?  Sounds to me like the Lord wasn't very "tolerant"
 
> usage- Bud is a bigot.
> 
> Bigot Bud carries water for the bigoted Rev.
> 
> See how easy that was?
> 
> In Christ
> Jay

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sat Aug  3 07:03:13 PDT 1996
Article: 54943 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: herre it is again...?
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 20:51:14 -0700
Organization: home
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bud wrote:
> 
> Michael Swihart wrote:
> >
> > tom moran wrote:
> > >
> > > anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> > >
> > > >In <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> > >
> > > >Classic straw man -- an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > > >can easily be struck down.  Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > > >--  not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you.  Anti-Semite has a specific
> > > >meaning.  it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800's by
> > > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings.  Webster: a
> > > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> > >
> > >         "Anti-Semite" Anyone hostile to Jews,  might be a dictionary
> > > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
> >
> > By similar reasoning, one could also say that the "Big Ten" has ten
> > universities and the "Midwest" is in the western part of the USA.
> >
> > (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> > and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
> >
> > As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> > use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> > invented the misnomer.
> >
> > M.Swihart
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.
> 
> Here's Webster's definition of the term.  Problems with it, send them a
> letter!
> --
> "The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)

an-ti-Sem-ite (an tee sem'iet, an tie-; esp. Brit. -see'miet)  
     n. 
                  1.  a person who discriminates against or is 
                       prejudiced or hostile toward Jews.
             [1880-85]
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sat Aug  3 07:03:14 PDT 1996
Article: 55023 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: not in Christ, and Jay's the bigot
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 14:59:44 -0700
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Jay McCullough wrote:
> 
> >I think we can solve all your problems
> with the (mis???) usage of the word anti-semite Bud.
> How about we just settle for bigot?
> 
> Webster definition of bigot
> 
> Bigot
> 1. one who is unreasonably and blindly attached
> to a particular creed, church church party or opinion.
> 
> 2. one who is bitterly intolerant of the opinions of others
> 
> 3 (pay special attention here Bud) one who is odiously hostile
> to people of a different race religion etc.
> 
> usage- Bud is a bigot.

definition of bigot from Webster's:  (which one are you using, Jay?)
big-ot (big'uht)  n. 
                  1.  a person who is extremely intolerant of 
                       another's creed, belief, or opinion.
             [1590-1600; < MF (OF: derogatory name applied by 
             the French to the Normans), perh. < OE bi God by 
             God]

Jay... that sound familar?  Anyone reading your posting knows who's the 
bigot now, don't we? 
> 
> Bigot Bud carries water for the bigoted Rev.
> 
> See how easy that was?

Yes, I imagine you find it much harder to address the issues 
and the information.
> 
> In Christ
> Jay

not in Christ, Jay. just incensed with nonsense.  Try to relax and 
address the issues and avoid the adhomenims.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sat Aug  3 07:03:15 PDT 1996
Article: 55029 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: some quotes that need consideration...
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 11:08:29 -0700
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tom moran wrote:
> 
> anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> 
> >In <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> >>
> >>The following is an article that appeared in "The Christian
> >>News".
> 
> >Classic straw man -- an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> >can easily be struck down.  Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> >--  not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you.  Anti-Semite has a specific
> >meaning.  it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800's by
> >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings.  Webster: a
> >person who is hostile to Jews.
> 
>         "Anti-Semite" Anyone hostile to Jews,  might be a dictionary
> definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
>         Annie if you can't accept this, maybe you can give us the term
> for hostility to Arabs. "Semite" is a genetic/racial designation, like
> Oriental, Caucasian, Amerind - etc. One dictionary definition states
> for "Semite" - a person descended from Shem.
> >
> >>         TALMUDIC JEWS KHAZARS NOT SEMITES
> >>The term anti-Semite when applied to opposition to Jews is also
> >>a misnomer because the vast majority of Talmudic Jews today are
> >>not Semites.  There are many Khazar (Chazar or Khozer) Jews,
> >>Black Jews, Chinese Jews, East Indian Jews, Mexican, Japanese
> >>Jews, etc.  According to some authorities the Khazar Jews alone
> >>make up over 90% of the Jewish population of the world.  Only
> >>the Sephardic Jews are considered to be the descendants of Shem.
> >>According to Benjamin Freedman, a converted Jew, the Khazar Jews
> >>are not Semites.  Mr. Freedman in his book, FACTS ARE FACTS on
> >>p. 42 quotes the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA in part as follows:
> >
> >See above.  Pointless argument.  Judaism is a religion, not a
> >race.
> 
>         In addition to the above evidence that Semite is a racial
> designation, we have to consider why Jews while charging anti-Semitism
> will also use the word "racist".
>         There are also terms like 'He looks Jewish, or 'He is half
> Jewish. There are also certain genetic diseases that Jews can have.
>         There is also things like the Jew is a Jew if the mother was a
> Jew.
>         This is just a small portion of the evidence that could be put
> forth to show that Judaism is a racial movement.
> 
> >
> >Also, Ben Freedman may have been born of parents who came from
> >parents who believed in Judaism, he himself and his parents were
> >secular Jews to say the least.  Who was Ben Freedman?
> 
>         "Secular" Jews is a term that has been used with great frequency
> in recent years. Look up "Jew" - "Jewish" in the dictionary, Annie.
> How can you be Jewish and "secular" at the same time?
> 
> >
> >Benjamin Harrison Freedman was the originator of the
> >"Khazar Canard"--a theory that today's Jews are not the
> >descendants of the Jews mentioned in the Bible, but rather
> >descendants of the Khazars, an Asiatic people who occupied
> >Southern Russia during the seventh century, who had
> >converted to Judaism. Ironically, he was born a Jew in New
> >York in 1890, but openly revealed himself to be a fascist
> >and an "honorary Aryan".  When WWII broke out he declared
> >himself a supporter of Hitler and predicted Hitler would
> >win the war.
> >
> >Over the years, Freedman has been a prolific producer
> >of anti-Semitic tracts, statements and pamphlets.  Many of
> >them have been used by most of the most well-known
> >anti-Semite.  I'm sure you've seen them in one form or
> >another.  He considered himself a martyr and bragged "Since
> >the death of Hitler, I am the most hated man in the world."
> >
> >   The May 1, 1959 issue of "Common Sense" ("The Nation's
> >  Anti-Communist Newspaper") has four tabloid-size pages
> >  filled with Freedman's story of the "discovery" of the
> >  canard. (Headline: Christians duped by unholiest hoax in
> >  al      The Khazar story was the grand passion of his life for
> >  many years.  Morris Kominsky (Hoaxers, Branden Press) says
> >  he could go on for hours on the subject without time out
> >  for a  breath of fresh air.  "Freedman expatiated on his
> >  Khazar delusion to a group of seven or eight Congressmen
> >  for five hours without surcease."
> >  l history "Big Lie" technique pushing USA to the brink of
> >  World War III").  This so-called "Anti-Communist" paper
> >  consisted for years mainly of anti-Jewish and anti-black
> >  diatribes as well as anti-welfare tirades.
> >     From Mr Freedman's article:
> >     "The U.S.A. Christians continue being brainwashed by
> >  the U.S.A. media of mass-communication that so-called "Jews"
> >  of throughout the world today are the actual historic
> >  descendants of the so-called "Jews" of the Holy Land in Old
> >  Testament history.  The U.S.A. Christians have been
> >  brainwashed by so-called Jews of historic Khazar ancestry,
> >  and by their servile Christian stooges, as they have been
> >  brainwashed by them for many years with the unholiest hoax
> >  in all recorded history of mankind, betraying the
> >  confidence of Christians.
> >     "Incontestable facts supply the unchallengable proof of
> >  the historic accuracy that so-called "Jews" throughout the
> >  world today of eastern European origin are unquestionably
> >  the historic descendants of the Khazars, a pagan Turco-Finn
> >  ancient Mongoloid nation deep in the heart of Asia, who
> >  battled their way into bloody wars about the 1st B.C.
> >  century into eastern Europe where they set up their Khazar
> >  kingdom...
> >     "The "big lie" technique of the unholiest hoax in all
> >  the recorded history of mankind brainwashed U.S.A.
> >  Christians into believing that Jesus Christ was actually a
> >  Jew in the sense that so-called Jews call themselves Jews
> >  now to bamboozle Christians."
> >       A very good debunking of the canard that 92% of
> >  today's  Jews are made up of descendants of a Mongolian
> >  tribe comes  from the pen of Dr. V. Orval Watts, a
> >  Holocaust denier with  John Birch Society connections.  In
> >  the ultra-right wing   "Santa Ana Register" November 6,
> >  1963, Watts says:  "There is no more reason for assuming
> >  that a Russian  Jew is a Khazar than to assume that an
> >  American Episcopalian is a Celtic descendant of King
> >  Arthur's Knights."
> >     >
> >--
> >Annie Alpert
> >
> >"All would be well,
> > All would be heavenly--
> > If the damned would only stay damned."--Charles Fort, 1919

"And are not they [today's "Jews"] the inventors of the Chosen People 
myth?" -- [Dr. Oscar Levy, preface, "The World Significance of the 
Russian Revolution," George Pitt Rivers (Oxford, England: Basil 
Blackwell, 1920) vi

Professor of Medieval Jewish History, Abraham N. Poliak of Tel Aviv 
University, has stated "The large majority of world Jewry is descended 
>from  the Jews of Khazaria." ("The Thirteenth Tribe" by Arthur Koestler 
(New York: Random House, 1976) p.226)

The American People's Encyclopedia for 1964 at 15-292 records the 
following reference to Khazars:
"In the year 740 the Khazars were officially converted to Judaism.  A 
century later they were cursed by the in-coming Slavic-speaking people 
and were scattered over central Europe where they were known as Jews.  It 
is from this grouping that most German and Polish Jews are descended, and 
they likewise make up a considerable part of that population now found in 
America.  The term Aschenazim is now applied to this....division."
Alfred Lilienthal writes, in What Price Israel (Henry Regenery Co., 1953) 
 "Perhaps the most significant mass conversion to the Judaic Faith 
occurred in Europe, in the 8th century A.D., and that story of the 
Khazars (Turko-Finnish people) is quite pertinent to the establishment of 
the modern state of Israel."  Again, "That the Khazars are the lineal 
ancestors of Eastern European Jewry is a historical fact.  Jewish 
historians and religious textbooks acknowledge the fact, though the 
propagandists of Jewish nationalism belittle it as pro-Arab propaganda."

The Jews fully understand their Khazarian heritage as the third edition 
of the Jewish Encyclopedia for 1925 records:
"Chazars: a people of Turkish origin whose life and history are 
interwoven with the very beginnings of the history of the Jews of 
Russia." The Jewish Encyclopedia, Third Edition, 1925

The World Book Encyclopedia states:  "The Jews were once a sub-type of 
the Mediterranean race, but they have mixed with other peoples until the 
name Jew has lost all racial meaning."

Albert Einstein said:  "Anti-Semitism is nothing but the antagonistic 
attitude produced in the non-Jew by the Jewish group.  The Jewish group 
has thrived on oppression and on the antagonism it has forever met in the 
world."  (Collier's Magazine, Nov. 26, 1938) Einstein was describing 
their common use of "chutzpah" for their own gain and profit while crying 
"persecution."



-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sun Aug  4 21:50:53 PDT 1996
Article: 55372 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: are you a bigot?
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 14:59:34 -0700
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:30:26 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:
> 
> >On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:45:32 -0700, bud  wrote:
> 
> >>If you don't know who "invented" this "misnomer" how do you know
> >>he/she/it/they were/are "Jew-hater's?"  Get real and drop the persecution
> >>complex everytime somebody tells some truth in relation to you or your
> >>selction religion.  Christians have to deal with it all the time.
> >The Term "AntiSemite was coined by Wilhelm Marr, and if you had read
> >anything about him you would have known that, but you didn't
> >dudrite, what a maroon.
> 
> 
>_______________________________________________________________________
> >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> >interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
> >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
> >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
> >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
> >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
> >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
> >respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
> 
>_______________________________________________________________________
> >URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
> 
> >P. GROFF
> ========
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
> From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT
> 
> " The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
> entrances to the four-story
> house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
> the same people were
> forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
> had to be transferred to one
> place in the courtyard. "
> IMT VII - p.491.

Hey...! Are you disagreeing with me?!  Are you a bigot?  Are you one of 
those "Christian-hating" anti-Christianists?
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:29 PDT 1996
Article: 1881 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Mr. Keren also ignores this aspect
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 14:06:38 -0700
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Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> [Followup, yet again, set to alt.revisionism]
> 
> goth@big10.metrobbs.com (paul goddard) writes:
> 
> # That's true. I found Danny's lies about Fred Leuchter to
> # be the most deplorable part of his message.  Fred Leuchter
> # was the top expert in charge of executions in the U.S.
> # including gas chamber exections.
> 
> Name one gas chamber he built. No "revisionist" has been
> able to provide one. Maybe you can?
> 
> He lied about being an engineer. He has a BA in the arts,
> and he ended up in court for this.
> 
> It's a fact. Easy to verify. I have the excerpt from the
> so-called "Zundel trial" in which Leuchter himself admits
> to these facts. See the end of my article.
> 
> # One of the important findings  he made in the
> # alleged gas chambers of the Germans was that there was
> # no cyanide residue.
> 
> This is an outright lie on your part. Leuchter himself
> states very clearly that there are cyanide residues in the
> gas chambers; you obviously have not read his report.
> 
> He claims that there are not "enough" residues to prove
> that mass homicidal gassing took place in them, but this
> is totally false. I can elaborate, if there's interest.
> 
> You're writing about something which you obviously know
> nothing about. Your motivation is hate, not finding the
> truth.
> 
> # Danny's remarks are complete and utter falsehoods.
> 
> Everything I wrote about Leuchter is true. It's a matter
> of record.
> 
> This is a verbatim quote from the cross-examination of Fred
> Leuchter, "revisionist scholar, engineer and scientist":
> 
> [Pages 9196-9198 of the transcript in Zundel's trial.
> Cross-examination conducted by Mr. Pearson]:
> 
> Q: Now, Mr. Leuchter, Mr. Christie, when he was reviewing your
>    qualifications, said that, if my note is correct, you graduated
>    from university in a field that entitles you to function as as
>    engineer and you responded in the affirmative to that question?
> 
> A: Yes. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree.
> 
> Q: You graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree?
> 
> A: Right.
> 
> Q: When?
> 
> A: You mean what year?
> 
> Q: What year?
> 
> A: 1964.
> 
> Q: 1964. And that's the only University degree you have?
> 
> A: That's correct.
> 
> Q: You don't have a Bachelor of Science degree?
> 
> A: No.
> 
> Q: You don't have a Master of Science degree; you don't have a
>    Ph.D in science?
> 
> A: Correct.
> 
> Q: You don't have a degree in engineering?
> 
> A: That's correct.
> 
> Q: Do you belong to any supervising disciplinary professional body?
> 
> A: I don't understand the question, counselor.
> 
> Q: Well, do you belong to a governing body of engineers?
> 
> A: I -- governing body? I do not understand. Are you saying do I
>    belong to any scientific societies?
> 
> Q: No, is there any body of engineers that supervises you and
>    disciplines you in your engineering function?
> 
> A: No.
> 
> 
> 
> -Danny Keren.
> 
> --
> Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
> 
> -Lu Xun.

After the trial, and in response to Fred A. Leuchter's report, in 1990 
the Auschwitz State Museum commissioned the Krakow Forensic Institute to 
carry out an investigation of the alleged gassing sites at the camp.  The 
results of the testing of brick and mortar samples fully corroborated 
Leuchter's findings:  they found either no or very small traces of 
cyanide in its samples.  However, the institute stated that it could not 
be assumed whether or not cyanide traces can be detected after 45 years 
of being subjected to the weather and the elements.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:30 PDT 1996
Article: 1884 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Luther and the Jews Part 1
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:55:53 -0700
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Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> [Followup, yet again, set to alt.revisionism]
> 
> goth@big10.metrobbs.com (paul goddard) writes:
> 
> # That's true. I found Danny's lies about Fred Leuchter to
> # be the most deplorable part of his message.  Fred Leuchter
> # was the top expert in charge of executions in the U.S.
> # including gas chamber exections.
> 
> Name one gas chamber he built. No "revisionist" has been
> able to provide one. Maybe you can?
> 
> He lied about being an engineer. He has a BA in the arts,
> and he ended up in court for this.
> 
> It's a fact. Easy to verify. I have the excerpt from the
> so-called "Zundel trial" in which Leuchter himself admits
> to these facts. See the end of my article.
> 
> # One of the important findings  he made in the
> # alleged gas chambers of the Germans was that there was
> # no cyanide residue.
> 
> This is an outright lie on your part. Leuchter himself
> states very clearly that there are cyanide residues in the
> gas chambers; you obviously have not read his report.
> 
> He claims that there are not "enough" residues to prove
> that mass homicidal gassing took place in them, but this
> is totally false. I can elaborate, if there's interest.
> 
> You're writing about something which you obviously know
> nothing about. Your motivation is hate, not finding the
> truth.
> 
> # Danny's remarks are complete and utter falsehoods.
> 
> Everything I wrote about Leuchter is true. It's a matter
> of record.
> 
> This is a verbatim quote from the cross-examination of Fred
> Leuchter, "revisionist scholar, engineer and scientist":
> 
> [Pages 9196-9198 of the transcript in Zundel's trial.
> Cross-examination conducted by Mr. Pearson]:
> 
> Q: Now, Mr. Leuchter, Mr. Christie, when he was reviewing your
>    qualifications, said that, if my note is correct, you graduated
>    from university in a field that entitles you to function as as
>    engineer and you responded in the affirmative to that question?
> 
> A: Yes. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree.
> 
> Q: You graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree?
> 
> A: Right.
> 
> Q: When?
> 
> A: You mean what year?
> 
> Q: What year?
> 
> A: 1964.
> 
> Q: 1964. And that's the only University degree you have?
> 
> A: That's correct.
> 
> Q: You don't have a Bachelor of Science degree?
> 
> A: No.
> 
> Q: You don't have a Master of Science degree; you don't have a
>    Ph.D in science?
> 
> A: Correct.
> 
> Q: You don't have a degree in engineering?
> 
> A: That's correct.
> 
> Q: Do you belong to any supervising disciplinary professional body?
> 
> A: I don't understand the question, counselor.
> 
> Q: Well, do you belong to a governing body of engineers?
> 
> A: I -- governing body? I do not understand. Are you saying do I
>    belong to any scientific societies?
> 
> Q: No, is there any body of engineers that supervises you and
>    disciplines you in your engineering function?
> 
> A: No.
> 
> 
> 
> -Danny Keren.
> 
> --
> Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
> 
> -Lu Xun.

Understand that I wanted to avoid beginning this, but since Mr. Keren and 
others are now obviously beginning to attempt to bring this issue into 
the Christian Newsgroup I sincerely believe it is time to have a balance 
in this regard, especially since I have alse been noticing some postings 
about Hitler being a Christian, etc.  I believe it is time and I hope all 
or most of the sincere Christians will understand why this should be 
done... And, I also hope that this can cease somewhere along the line...

The following is an article that appeared in "The Christian News".  It 
was entitled "Luther and the Jews" and written by Pastor R. H. Goetjen.  
There are some striking samples of information that would seem 
particularly relevant to the alt.revisionism newsgroup.  Because of the 
length of the article, It is presented here in Three parts.  This is part 
number one.  It begins... You can contact "The Christian News" at: 3277 
Boeuf Lutheran Road, New Haven, MO 63069; or, you can email them at: 
otten@aol.com.

	Luther has been accused of anti-Semitism.  Was Luther really an 
anti-Semite?  That depends on you definition of anti-Semitism.
	When some people hear the term anti-Semitism, they immediately 
think of racism.  By racism they mean that a person is opposed to and 
prejudiced against a certain person or persons for no other reason that 
they belong to a certain race.  In other words, such a racist anti-Semite 
is opposed to any descendant of Shem because he is prejudiced against all 
Semites.
	If the above is the definition of anti-Semitism, then Luther 
certainly was not and could not have been an anti-Semite, for then he of 
necessity would also have been opposed to an prejudiced against Jesus of 
Nazareth and all the apostles and the entire Holy Bible since it was 
written almost, if not entirely, by the descendants of Shem.  Luther so 
loved his Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy  Bible that he was prepared to 
die for Jesus Christ and His Holy Word.  This he could not have done if 
he were opposed to an prejudiced against the Semitic race as such.
		TALMUDIC JEWS KHAZARS NOT SEMITES
	The term anti-Semite when applied to opposition to Jews is also a 
misnomer because the vast majority of Talmudic Jews today are not 
Semites.  There are many Khazar (Chazar or Khozer) Jews, Black Jews, 
Chinese Jews, East Indian Jews, Mexican, Japanese Jews, etc.  According 
to some authorities the Khazar Jews alone make up over 90% of the Jewish 
population of the world.  Only the Sephardic Jews are considered to be 
the descendants of Shem.  According to Benjamin Freedman, a converted 
Jew, the Khazar Jews are not Semites.  Mr. Freedman in his book, FACTS 
ARE FACTS on p. 42 quotes the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA in part as follows:  
"At the end of the eighth century... the chagan (king) of the Chazars and 
his grandees together were a large number of his heathen people embraced 
the Jewish religion ... about the ninth century, it appears as if all the 
Chazars were Jews and they had converted to Judaism only a short time 
before ... after a hard fight the Russians conquered the Chazars."
	Freedman further states: "Yiddish is the modern name for the 
ancient mother tongue of the Khazars with added German, Slavonic and 
Baltic adopted and adapted words (p.44).
	"The large number of Jews in Russian and eastern Europe after the 
destruction of the Khazar kingdom were therefore no longer known as 
Khazars but at the 'Yiddish' populations of these countries.  they so 
refer to themselves today (p.45).
	"The so-called or self-styled 'Jews' throughout the world today 
of eastern European origin make up at least 90% of the world's population 
of so-called or self-styled 'Jews' ... 'Talmudism', or 'Judaism', as 
Talmudism is known today, was given its greatest stimulus in all its 
history with the conversion of the large pagan Khazar population.  
Without the conversion of the Khazar population it is doubtful if 
Talmudism, or Judaism, could have survived.  'Talmudism,' the civil and 
religious code of the Pharisees, most likely would have passed out of 
existence." (p. 46).
	"THE KHAZARS WERE NOT 'SEMITES'.  THEY WERE AN ASIATIC MONGOLOID 
NATION.  THEY ARE CLASSIFIED BY MODERN ANTHROPOLOGIST AS TURCO-FINNS 
RACIALLY" (p 45-emphasis added).
	Douglas reed puts it this way:  The destructive achievement; in 
both the Zionist and Communist aspect, came from the Jews in Russia and 
the Romanoff; that is the key to the understanding of the present and the 
future.  THE JEWS WHO MADE THOSE TWO MOVEMENTS WERE NOT SEMITES; on that 
all qualified authorities agree; ... They are descendants of a Russian, 
Mongol Tartar race converted to Judaism in the 7th century whose remote 
forbears never trod the Palestinian soil" (FAR AND WIDE, p. 276- Emphasis 
added).
	"IN PART II, CH, V-VII, I HAVE COMPILED THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE 
WHICH INDICATES THAT THE BULK OF EASTERN JEWRY - AND HENCE THE WORLD 
JEWRY -- IS OF KHAZAR-TURKISH, RATHER THAN SEMITIC, ORIGIN.  IN THIS LAST 
CHAPTER I HAVE TRIED TO SHOW THAT THE EVIDENCE FROM ANTHROPOLOGY CONCURS 
WITH HISTORY IN REFUTING THE POPULAR BELIEF IN A JEWISH RACE DESCENDED 
FROM A BIBLICAL TRIBE" (THE THIRTEENTH TRIBE, by Arthur Koestler, a Jew. 
p. 199 - Emphasis added).
	Thus if over 90% of modern day followers of Judaism, which is 
Talmudism or Pharisaism, are not Semites, what is the sense of calling 
those anti-Semitic who oppose those who follow the religion of the 
Talmud, i.e., the religion of the Pharisees?  When Luther was opposing 
the Jews in his day, he was not opposing Semites.  He was opposing 
Pharisees because they were Pharisees, not Semites.
	To define "anti-Semitism" as meaning being opposed to someone 
just because he belongs to a certain race is faulty also since it is 
based on the root meaning of the word and not on the USUS LOQUENDI, i.e., 
the use of the word in common speech.  Quite often the real meaning is 
different from that which the root meaning suggests.  Dictionaries 
attempt to give us the proper meaning of words.  FUNK & WAGNALLS STANDARD 
DICTIONARY, INTERNATIONAL EDITION gives this definition of anti-Semitism: 
"Opposition to, prejudice or discrimination against, or intolerance of 
Jews, Jewish culture, etc."  We will all have to agree that Luther was 
opposed to Jews and Jewish culture.  According to the dictionary 
definition of anti-Semitism we would all have to agree that Luther was 
indeed anti-Semitic.  However, not only Luther but Jesus Christ Himself 
was anti-Pharisee Jew.  This is likewise true of every follower of Jesus 
Christ.  So the question is, "Were Jesus, Luther and their followers 
justified in being anti-Pharisee Jew?"
			THE TALMUD
	What is Jewish culture?  According to a Rabbi, to know Jewish 
culture one must be acquainted with the Talmud.  The Rev. Dr. Isaac Wise 
who edited and corrected the first edition of Michael Rodkinson's English 
translation of the Talmud states on page XI: 'The modern Jew is the 
product of the Talmud" (Freedman p. 35).  He also stated:  "It  (the 
Talmud) still dominates a whole people who venerate its contents as 
divine truth ... The colleges for the study of the Talmud are increasing 
in almost every place where Israel dwells, especially in this country 
where millions are gathered for the funds of the two colleges, The Hebrew 
Union College of Cincinnati and the Jewish Theological Seminary of 
American in New York, IN WHICH THE CHIEF STUDY IS THE TALMUD" (emphasis 
added - ibidem p.25).
	LADIES HOME JOURNAL BOOK BONUS may 1967 gives part of a novel 
entitle THE CHOSEN by Chaim Potok.  The author, speaking of the Yeshiva, 
the Jewish parochial school, states in part, "The test of intellectual 
excellence, however, had been reduced by tradition to a single area of 
study: Talmud, Virtuosity in Talmud guaranteed a reputation for 
brilliance."
	The Talmud is therefore the chief book which is taught in Jewish 
parochial schools, colleges and seminaries.  What sort of book(s) of 
instruction is the Talmud?  Permit us to quote Jewish sources for the 
answer:
	"The Talmud, then, is the written form of that which, in the time 
of Jesus, was called the Tradition of the Elders, and to which he makes 
frequent allusions" (THE HISTORY OF THE TALMUD, by M. L. Rodkinson, p. 
70).
	The Tradition of the Elders contained the doctrines, beliefs, and 
practices of the sect of the Pharisees.  "Pharisaism became Talmudism, 
Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism and Medieval Rabbinism became modern 
Rabbinism.  But throughout these changes in name, inevitable adoption of 
custom, and adjustment of law, the spirit of the ancient Pharisee 
survives unaltered.  Then the Jew ... studies the Talmud, he is actually 
repeating the arguments used in the Palestinian academies (THE PHARISEES 
by Louis Finkelstein, Provost and Solomon Schechter Professor of Theology 
at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America -- THE PLOT AGAINST 
CHRISTIANITY by E. Dilling, Exhibit 1 a photostatically reproduced page 
>from  the above book).  In other words, the modern day followers of the 
Talmud are Pharisees.
	"THE UNIVERSAL JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA p. 474 also states: "the 
Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, 
through all the centuries from the Pharisees.  their leading ideas and 
methods found in literature of enormous extent ... The Talmud is the 
largest and most important single member of that literature, ... and the 
studying of it is essential for any real understanding of Pharisaism."
			CHRIST OPPOSED PHARISEE JEWS
	Dr. Martin Luther was a sincere follower of Jesus Christ.  Jesus 
Christ in His day also opposed the Pharisee Jews with great vehemence.  
In Matthew 23 Jesus Christ castigates the Pharisee Jews in no uncertain 
terms.  No less than eight times he places His "Woe" upon them.  Six 
times He calls them "hypocrites".  Twice He calls them "blind guides" and 
"fools and blind."  He calls them "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers". 
 He also states, "Ye are like whited sepulchres, which indeed appear 
beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and all 
uncleanness."  Finally He pronounces His judgment upon them, "Wherefore, 
I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of they ye 
shall kill and crucify, and some of them ye shall scourge in your 
synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:  That upon you may come 
all the righteous blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son 
of Barachias whom ye show between the temple and the altar... Behold your 
house is left unto you desolate" (v 34, 35, 38).
	Jesus also revealed His vehement opposition to the Pharisee Jews 
in John 8:44: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your 
father ye will do.  He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not 
in the truth, because there is no truth in him.  when he speaketh as lie, 
he speaketh of his own for he is a liar and the father of it."  Here 
Jesus  not only calls the Pharisee Jews the sons of the devil, but also 
implies that they are liars and murderers.
	Jesus, speaking of the Pharisee Jew Traditions of the Elders, 
charges, "Thus ye make the commandment of God of none effect by your 
tradition" (Mt. 15:6).  "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that 
ye may keep your tradition ... making the Word of God of none effect 
through your tradition" (Mk 7:13).
	Do the Pharisee Jew followers of the Babylonian Talmud really 
"reject" and "make of none effect" the commandments of God by their 
Tradition of the Elders?  Permit us to quote from the Talmud so that you 
can judge for yourselves:
		QUOTATIONS FROM THE TALMUD
	"Every goy (non-Jew) who studies the Talmud and every Jew who 
helps him in it, ought to die" (Sanhedren, 59a; ABODA ZORA, 8-6, SZAGIGA, 
13).  The Jews want to censor what Christian Publishing Houses publish 
before they publish it to see if there is anything against the Jews in 
what is being published.  Will they permit Christians to censor what they 
publish or have published to see if there is anything anti-Christian in 
their publications?
	"If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the Rabbinical 
books, he ought to give a false explanation.  Whoever will violate this 
order shall be put to death (LIBBRE DAVID 37).
	"The Jew should and must make a false oath when the goyim 
(non-Jew) ask if our books contain anything against them" (SZAALOTH 
UTSZABOTG, the BOOK OF JORE DIA 17).
	"To communicate anything to a goy (non-Jew) about our religious 
relations would be equal to killing all Jews, for it the goyim knew what 
we teach about they would kill us openly' (LIBBRE DAVID 37).
	"A Jew may do to a non-Jewess what he can do.  He may treat her 
as he treats a piece of meat" (NADARINE, 20, B; SCHUDCHAN ARUCH, CHOSZEN 
HAMISZPAT 348).  We see a modern interpretation of this text in the 
following quote:  "Jews believe that when it comes to sex, Gentile girls 
are more willing, more able, and ABOVE ALL MORE AVAILABLE... and because, 
after all, they are Gentiles, sex, pure physical sex  WITHOUT 
ENCUMBRANCES, IS A LICENSE ONE CAN TAKE WITH THEM" (THE JEWISH MYSTIQUE 
by Ernest Van Den Haag, p. 214. Emphasis added).
	"A Jew is permitted to rape, cheat, and perjure himself; but he 
must take care that he is not found out, so that Israel does not suffer" 
((SCHULCHAN ARUCH. CHOSZEN HAMISZPAT 348)
	"All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, 
which, consequently is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples.  
An orthodox Jew is not bound to observe principles of morality toward 
people of other tribes.  he may act contrary to morality, if profitable 
to himself or to Jews in general" (SCHULCHAN ARUCH, CHOSZEN HAMISZPAT 
348).
	"In Volume III of the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA on p. 539 will be found 
the official translation into English of the prayer known as the 'Kol 
Nidre' (all vows) prayer.  It is the prologue of the Day of Atonement 
services in the synagogues... The official translation into English of 
the 'Kol Nidre' (all vows) prayer follows:  "All voes, obligations oaths, 
anathema's, whether called 'konan', 'konas', or by any other name, which 
we may vow, or sear, or pledge, or whereby we may be bound, from this day 
of Atonement unto the next (whose happy coming we await), we do repent.  
May they be deemed absolved, forgiven, annuled, and void and made of no 
effect; they shall not bind us nor have power over us.  The vows shall 
not be reckoned vows; the obligations shall not be obligatory; nor the 
oaths, (Quoted by Benjamin Freedman in FACTS ARE FACTS p. 35).
	Although the Kol Nidre (All Vows) is later than the Talmud gets 
its implications, inferences and innuendoes are found in the Talmud in 
the BOOK OF NEDARIM 23a-23b as follows:  "And he who desires that none of 
his vows made during the year shall be valid, let him stand at the 
beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I shall make in the 
future shall be null.' (His vows are then invalid) providing that he 
remembers this at the time of the vow." (OP,.CIT. p. 36.  See also 
Dilling Exh. 171.).
	Professor Theodor Reik's analysis of the Kol Nidre was as 
follows:  "The text was to the effect that all oaths which believers take 
between one Day of Atonement and the next Day of Atonement are declared 
invalid" (Freedman p. 36).
	Who reading these facts taken from Jewish "Culture" isn't 
reminded of the statement of the Kremlin boss who said: "Treaties are 
like pie crusts, made to be broken"?
	According to the Talmud sodomy with a child under the age of nine 
is no sin:  "Rab said: Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is 
not deemed as pederasty with a child above that... (Footnote -- Rab makes 
nine years the minimum, but if one committed sodomy with a child of 
lesser age, no guilt is incurred" (Sanhedrin 54b 55a -- Dilling Exh. 54).
	"Raba said, It means this: When a grown up man has intercourse 
with a little girl is it nothing, for when a girl is less than this 
(footnote: less than three years old)it is as if one puts the finger into 
(footnote: tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come 
back to the little girl under three years); but when a small boy has 
intercourse with a grown woman he makes her as 'a girl that is injured by 
a piece of wood.'" (KETHUBOTH 11b -- Dilling Exh. 54).
	""For murder, whether of a Cuthean by a Cuthean, or of an 
Israelite by a Cuthean, punishment is incurred; but of a Cuthean by an 
Israelite, there is no death penalty' (SANHEDRIN p. 57a Dilling Exh 147). 
 
	THE TALMUD TEACHES THAT THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE THE MESSIAH:
	"These are the throes of mother Zion which is in labor to bring 
forth the Messiah -- without metaphor, the Jewish people" (KETHOBOTH p. 
11a - Dilling Exh 147).  The "without metaphor" means that the Jewish 
people are LITERALLY the "Messiah".
	In fact according to the Talmud an Israelite is a divine being: 
"R. Hanna said: If a heathen smites an Israelite on the jaw, it as if he 
had assaulted the Divine Presence; for it is written, ONE THAT SMITETH A 
MAN (i.e. Israelite) ATTACKETH THE HOLY ONE" ( SANHEDRIN 58B - Dilling 
Exh. 59).
	In 1924 the noted Jewish writer and editor Maurice Samuel 
published a book entitled, YOU GENTILES, in which is stated " In the 
heart of any pious Jew, God is a Jew. (VERITAS VINCIT WAR! WAR! WAR! by 
Cincinnatus, p. 142).
	Jews are people, God's people, but non-Jews are beasts, animals: 
"Abide ye here with the ass (which may be rendered) people that are like 
an ass" (KETHUBOTH 111a -- Dilling Exh. 148; TALMUD UNMASKED p. 51).
	"A Jewish mid-wife ... is forbidden to help a non Jewish woman 
even if be possible to help her without desecrating the Sabbath, because 
she is to be considered only as an animal" (SCHULCHAN ARUCH, ORACH CHAIM 
330 -- quoted in JUDAISM IN ACTION p. 200).
	"The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not 
human being just beasts: (BABA MECA 11,6 -- code of the Jews).
	"Everything a Jew needs for his church ritual no goy is permitted 
to manufacture, but only a Jew because this must be manufactured by human 
beings and the Jew is not permitted to consider the goyim as human beings 
" (SCHUDCHAN ARUCH, ORACH CHAIM 14, 20, 33, 39. TALMUD JEBOMOTH 61 -- 
IBIDEM).
	"On the house of the goy one looks as upon the fold of cattle" 
(TOSEFTA, ERUBIN VII,2 -- IBIDEM).
	"The souls of the non-Jewish people come from the devil such as 
the cattle and animals have.  The seed of the stranger is also cattle 
seed" (SCHELA TAL.  4.2, MEMCHEM  P. 53 f. 221-JUDAISM IN ACTION p. 197). 
 This means that killing a Christian is no different than killing a cow 
as far as the Pharisee Jew is concerned.
	"Marriages taking place among Gentiles have no binding strength: 
their cohabitation us just as the coupling of horses, therefore their 
children do not stand as humanly related to their parents" (SCHULCHAN 
ARUCH -- IBIDEM).  This means Christian children may be killed and used 
for whatever purposes they may choose as in ritual murder and medical 
experiments.
	"Although the people of the world outwardly resemble Jews, they 
are actually only as apes din comparison with men" (Schene Lucohoth 
Ha'berith -- ibidem).
	"When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2,800 slaves: (SIMEON 
HADDARSEN fol. 56-d -- The Code of the Jews).
	"God created them in the form of men for the glory of Israel.  
But Akum (Christians) were created for the sole end of ministering unto 
them (the Jews) day and night.  Nor can they ever be relieved of this 
service.  It is becoming to the son of a king (an Israelite) that animals 
in their natural form, and animals in the form of human beings (i.e., 
non-Jews, Christians, R.G.) should minister unto him" (MIDRASCH, TALPIOTH 
FOL 225d -- THE TALMUD UNMASKED p.50)
	"The Jews were created to be served by the non-Jews.  The latter 
must plow, sow, seed, dig, mow, bind, sieve and grind.  The Jews were 
created to find all this in readiness (BERCHOTH -- JUDAISM IN ACTION 201)

		END OF PART ONE.  PART TWO WILL INCLUDE TOPICS SUCH AS 
'THE TALMUD AND KILLING CHRISTIANS", " RENOUNCING THE NEW TESTAMENT?" AND 
"MODERN DAY JEWS AND JESUS".

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:31 PDT 1996
Article: 1917 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
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Subject: Luther and the Jews Pt 3
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 19:18:26 -0700
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bud wrote:
> 
> >
> > Understand that I wanted to avoid beginning this, but since Mr. Keren and
> > others are now obviously beginning to attempt to bring this issue into
> > the Christian Newsgroup I sincerely believe it is time to have a balance
> > in this regard, especially since I have alse been noticing some postings
> > about Hitler being a Christian, etc.  I believe it is time and I hope all
> > or most of the sincere Christians will understand why this should be
> > done... And, I also hope that this can cease somewhere along the line...

Part 3 begins:
The following is an article that appeared in "The Christian News".  It 
was entitled "Luther and the Jews" and written by Pastor R. H. Goetjen.  
There are some striking samples of information that would seem 
particularly relevant to the alt.revisionism newsgroup.  Because of the 
length of the article, It is presented here in Three parts.  This is part 
number three. You can contact "The Christian News" at: 3277 Boeuf 
Lutheran Road, New Haven, MO 63069; or, you can email them at: 
otten@aol.com.

		HOLOCAUST PROPAGANDA
	The men who are spreading the Holocaust propaganda are Pharisee 
Jews.  they have already prayed for forgiveness in advance for breaking 
their vows and oaths.  It their oaths are not to be trusted, can we trust 
anything they say, especially when the can reap millions, yea, billions 
of dollars from making people believe their propaganda?  Or, shall we 
believe historical researchers who are known for their integrity and have 
nothing materially to gain for standing up for the truth but have to face 
persecution at the hand of the Jews and government officials who are 
under Jewish influence?
	Douglas Reed in his book FAR AND WIDE gives us the following 
information: "Thus the WORLD ALMANAC for 1947 (two years after the war's 
end) printed such Jewish supplied 'estimates', which gave the world's 
population of Jews in 1939, when the war began, at 15,688,259...
	"In 1948 the New Your Times (a Jewish owned newspaper) published 
what was offered as authoritative, statistical article, which stated that 
the figure of Jewish world population for the year 1948 was between 
15,700,000 and 18,600,000" (p. 310 & 312).
	We naturally ask, How could that be, if the Germans killed 
6,000,000 Jews?  It would appear that the Pharisee Jews forgot that 
Christians can also figure.  Thus by 1950 and 1951 the estimates were 
changed to allow for Hitler's alleged "Holocaust."  The 1939 estimated 
figure was beefed up about a million and the figure for 1951 was cut down 
to 11,303,350.  Apparently Hitler and the Germans killed the 6,000.000 
Jews somewhere between 1948 and 1950 or 1951, some three to five years 
after Hitler was dead and the Allies were occupying Germany.
	"Doubtless, several thousand Jewish persons did die in the course 
of the Second 'World War, but this must be seen in the context of a war 
that cost many millions of innocent victims on all sides.  To put the 
matter into perspective, for example, we may point out that 700,000 
Russian civilians died during the siege of Leningrad, and a total of 
2,050,000 German civilians were killed by Allied air raids and forced 
repatriation after the war.  In 1955, another neutral Swiss source, DIE 
TAT of Zurich (January 19, 1955), in a survey of all Second World War 
casualties based on figures on the International Red Cross put the 'Loss 
of victims of persecution because of politics, race or religions who died 
in prisons and concentration camps between 1939 and 1945' at 300,000, not 
all of whom were Jews and this figure seems the most accurate assessment" 
(DID SIX MILLION REALLY DIE by Richard Harwood, p. 28).  Note the report 
said "died" not "were killed".  Many thousands of inmates died toward the 
end of the war because of typhus which was caused in part by lack of 
food.
	The World Center of Contemporary Jewish documentation puts the 
number of Jews under German control when German occupied territory was at 
its widest at 5,294,000.  This figure, however, includes the 2,000,000 
Jews which were in western Russia and the Baltic States, the majority of 
which were evacuated east of the Ural mountains.  This it is unlikely 
that more than 4,000,000 Jews ever were under Hitler's control.  How many 
of these 4,000,000 Jews survived after 1945?  By 1965 there were 
3,375,000 persons who claimed compensation from the West German 
government for having suffered under the Nazis between 1939 and 1945.  
Most of these claimants were Jews.
	There is in existence an order by Himmler dated Dec. 28, 1942: 
"The death rate in the concentration camps must be reduced at all costs." 
 Too many were dying of disease and thus cutting down the labor force.  
On Sept. 30, 1943 Himmler was informed that the death rate had been 
reduced from 8.5% to 2.8% (see Holocaust News 1982)
			$50,000 REWARD
	The Institute For Historical Review offered $50,000 to anyone who 
could prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Nazis exterminated 
millions of Jews during World War II in gas chambers, primarily at 
Auschwitz.  Only three people filled out the claim form in an attempt to 
prove the case and win the money.  It turned out that none of the three 
had any real evidence to present.  See special Report published by the 
Institute For Historical Review entitled NAZI GASSING A MYTH? A NEW LOOK 
AT THE HOLOCAUST.
	But let us digress a minute.  Why all this concern about the 
"alleged" six million Jews supposedly killed and little and/or no concern 
about the sixty million and more non-Jews that were slain by the Soviets 
behind the iron curtain?  Are six million Jews somehow worth much more 
than sixty million non-Jews?  Or do we perhaps subscribe to the principle 
that Jews alone are human beings and the goyim are beasts, and therefore 
killing sixty million non-Jews is no more than killing so many cattle?
	The Pharisee Jews who engineered and financed the Russian 
Revolution followed the Talmudic principle: "Even the best of the goyim 
should be killed."  All the non-Jewish intelligentsia were put to death 
for no other reason than that they were "the best of the goyim" and might 
become leaders against them.  Thus essentially only the non-leader class 
of the goyim were permitted to live.
	Donald Day in his book ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS when speaking of 
the Cheka (no K.G.B) states: "it was this organization which 
systematically massacred all members: men, women, children, of the upper 
and middle classes in Russia.  The Jews applied terror to all classes of 
the population.  It was used to enable them to obtain complete control 
over the people living in Russia" (p. 94).
	Donald Day calls the liberal clique in this country which 
defended the Bolshevist atrocities and held protest meetings, collected 
funds, employed lawyers to defend communists and revolutionaries the 
"unintelligentsia." He said that they have become senile and raving 
lunatics.  They defend the communists but brand the person who condemns 
the Jew, the Communist, the Communist International, or the Soviet 
government as a traitor to society.   Mr. Day, who was a foreign 
correspondent in Europe before and during the World War II for the 
Chicago Tribune, points out:
	"The unintelligentsia was one of the first classes to be 
thoroughly and systematically liquidated by the Jewish terror.  All 
Russian liberal leaders, and this included the Social Democratic Party, 
were exterminated.  The portent of this action was never grasped by the 
unintelligentsia abroad.  That is, if with the assistance of their 
efforts a communist regime should be established in their own country 
THEY WOULD BE ONE OF THE FIRST CLASSES TO BE PURGED FROM THE RANKS OF 
SOCIETY.  THIS SEEMINGLY HAS NEVER ENTERED THEIR THOUGHTS"  (p. 96) 
(emphasis added).
	When it comes to atrocities, reports by men of honesty and 
integrity reveal the horrible and incredible cruelties which were 
inflicted on the Russians who were unwilling to bow to the Pharisee Jew 
communist tyranny.  Mr. Zinovieff (Jew name -- Apfelbaum) in a speech 
reported in the NORTHERN COMMUNE, published in Petrograd on September 19, 
1918, No. 109, made this statement:  "To overcome our enemies we must 
have our own socialist militarism.  We must win over to our side 
90,000,000 of the 100,000,000 of the population of Russia under the 
soviets.  S FOR THE REST, WE HAVE NOTING TO SAY TO THEM, THEY MUST BE 
ANNIHILATED" (quoted in JUDAISM IN ACTION p. 90 -- third book).  In other 
words, from the beginning it was planned to kill 10,000,000 Russians who 
would not go along with Bolshevism.
	THE LONDON TIMES, Nov. 14, 1919, printed a letter written by a 
British officer from Russia to his wife.  Here are a few quotes: "The 
Bolshevists are devils.  I hope to send you copies of 64 official photos 
taken by British officers at Odessa when the town was retaken from the 
Bolshevists ... As no paper will publish them I suggest that you should 
have copies made ... They show men who've been crucified with the torture 
of the human glove.  the victim gets crucified, nails through his elbows. 
 The hands are treated with a solution which shrivels the skin.  the skin 
is cut our with a razor, round the wrist, and peeled off, till it hangs 
by the fingernails -- the 'human skin glove' ... Most of the photos are 
of women.  Women with their breasts cut off to the bone ... We have here 
at headquarters passes issued to Bolshevists by commissaries on occupying 
Ekaterinodar.  These passes authorize the holders to arrest for use of 
the soldiery.  Sixty-two girls were arrested like this and thrown to the 
Bolshevist troops.  Those who struggled were killed quite early on.  The 
rest, when used and finished, were mutilated and thrown dead or dying, in 
the two small rivers flowing through Ekaterinodar. (This reminds one of 
the quotation previously cited from the TALMUD: "A Jew may do to a 
non-Jewess what he can do.  He may treat her as a piece of meat." R.H.G.) 
 In all towns occupied by Bolshevists and reoccupied by us 'slaughter 
houses' are found choked with corpses.  Hundred of 'suspects" men, women 
and children were herded in these -- doors and windows manned and the 
struggling mass fired until most of them were dead or dying.  The doors 
were then locked and left.  The stench in these places, I am told, is 
hair-raising.  These 'slaughter houses' are veritable plague spots and 
have caused widespread epidemics...
	"Unless beaten by us, the Bolshies will beat us... They have 
declared war on Christianity.  The Bible to them is a 
counter-revolutionary book, and to be stamped out.  They are aiming at 
raising all non-Christian countries against the Christian countries.  The 
Bolshevists form about 5% of the population of Russia. -- Jews (80 to 90 
per cent of the commissaries are Jews), Chinese, Letts, Germans, and 
certain of the skilled labor artisans ... Ref. Jews -- In town captured 
by the Bolshevists the only unviolated buildings are the synagogues, 
while churches are used for anything from movie shows to 'slaughter 
houses'.  The Poles, Galacians, and Petlura have committed 'pograms 
(slaughter of Jews).  Not the Russian Volunteer Armies under Denikin.  
Denikin has, in fact, been so strict in protecting the Jews that he has 
been accused by his sympathizers of favoring them.  If, however, a 
commissary, steeped in murder, with torture and rape, with mutilation, 
happens to be a Jew, as most of them are, should he receive exceptional 
treatment??" (Quoted from JUDAISM IN ACTION p. 91 & 92 -- third book).
			KILLING THE GERMANS
	"The Germans are not human beings.  From now on the word German 
means to us the most terrible death.  -- if you have not killed at least 
one German a day, you have wasted the day -- if you kill one German, kill 
another.  There is nothing so amusing to us than a heap of German 
corpses..."
	Kill, nothing in Germany is guiltless, neither the living nor the 
yet unborn.  Follow the words of Comrad Stalin and crush forever the 
fascist beast in its den.  BREAK THE PRIDE OF THE GERMAN WOMAN.  Take her 
as you legitimate booty.  Kill, you brace soldiers of the victorious 
Soviet Army."
	The above quotations are the words of Ilja Ehrenburg, a follower 
of the Talmudic faith and propaganda minister of the Soviet Union during 
World War II.  These words were taken quite literally by the Red hordes  
of the Soviet army as they invaded Germany toward the close of the war as 
the following quotations of an eye witness reveals:
	"We were about 500 girls (Maidens of the Reichsarbeitsdienst -- 
German Labour Service)...
	"Suddenly I heard loud screams and promptly five girls were 
brought in by two Red Armists.  the Commissar ordered them to undress..
	"Now two Poles, clad in trousers only, entered the room.  At 
their sight the girls cried out.  Briskly they seized the first of the 
girls and bent her over with her back over the edge of the table until 
her joints cracked.  I almost fainted when one of the men pulled his 
knife and cut off her right breast in the presence of the other girls.  I 
have never heard a woman scream as desperately as this young woman.  
After this 'operation' both men stabbed her several times in the abdomen, 
accompanied again by the howling of the Russians...
	"One girl had not undressed completely, she may also have been 
somewhat older than the rest of the girls who were about 17 years old.  
One of the torturers soaked her bra with oil and ignited it and, while 
she cried out, another drove a thin rod into her vagina until it emerged 
at her navel...
	"As I learned later on, approximately 2,000 girls were murdered 
during the first three days of the first round of Russian occupation."  
The author of this eye witness report was and is a citizen of Brazil.  
The Germans briefly retook the town where these horrors took place and 
thus her life was spared.  The above quotation is taken from a pamphlet, 
COLD BLOODED MURDER A.D. 1945, and eye witness report by Leonora Giere -- 
available from LIBERTY BELL PUBLICATIONS, box 21, Reedy, W. VA. 25270
		PHARISEE JEWS FINANCE COMMUNIST REVOLUTIONS
	That the Bolshevists and/or Communist revolutions of Eastern 
Europe were revolutions instigated, engineered and financed by 
anti-Christ Pharisee Jews is not commonly known.  This, of course, 
reveals the control that the Pharisee Jews and their sympathizers and 
dupes have over the mass media and our educational and Christian 
institutions.  Many books have been written about this subject but these 
are ignored by the mass media, and most of these books are not allowed in 
public libraries, nor in the libraries of our educational Church 
institutions.  One of the biggest problems is that many of those who know 
these things lack the courage to do anything about it, so the Christians 
are in danger of losing by default to the anti-Christian forces.
	In his little book, USSR UNDER JEWISH RULE, Petrov, one who 
escaped from behind the iron Curtain, maintained that the Pharisee Jew 
rulers of Russia tried to hide the fact that they were Jews (e.g., by 
taking on Russian names) not only form the outside world but even from 
the Russian people.  We asked a Christian who had escaped from Russia if 
the people in the Soviet Union knew who their rulers were.  he answered, 
"In Russia the people say, 'The Jews are the rulers.'"
	Books which reveal that the Pharisee Jews are in control in the 
Soviet Union are really available.  BEHIND COMMUNISM by Frank Britton, 96 
pages, is easy to read and gives background history for the Russian 
Revolution.  THE RULERS OF RUSSIA by Denis Fahey, C.S.Sp, D.D., 
D.Ph.,B.A., 100 pages, gives the names of the Jewish rulers of the Soviet 
Union in its early years.  In 1935 "The Central Committed of the 
Communist party in Moscow, the very center of international communism, 
consisted of 59 members, of whom 56 were Jews, and the other three were 
married to Jewesses." (p. 35).
	Then there is the book THE PLOT AGAINST THE CHURCH by Maurice 
Pinay, 710 pages.  Part 1 (60 pages) has been reprinted separately -- THE 
SECRET DRIVING FORCE BEHIND COMMUNISM -- and contains the information 
about who is ruling the Soviet Union.  The authors list all the officials 
of Lenin's government giving each man's pedigree.  here are a few summary 
quotes:
	"At present according to confirmed data 80% to d90% of the key 
positions in all ministries in Moscow and in the remaining Soviet 
Republics are occupied by Jews...
	"As  in Russia the countries in Europe where Bolshevism has 
gained control, are also ruled by Jewish minority; the latter always 
appears in the direction of the Communist government with iron criminal 
and merciless hand, so as to attain the utter enslaving of the native 
citizens through an insignificant group of Jews' (pg. 70 &  71).
	As the Pharisee Jew Bolshevists planned and executed the most 
horrible holocaust in Russian and in other countries taken over by them, 
so they have something similar planned for America...
			ANNE FRANK'S DIARY -- A FAKE
	ANNE FRANK'S DIARY has proven to be a fake.  "Court appointed 
technical examiners found that parts of the Diary manuscript -- accepted 
as being in the same handwriting as the rest by a court in 1960 -- were 
written in a ball point pen ink not available until 1951.  So clearly 
since the 1951 additions are in the same handwriting as the rest of the 
DIARY, it is evident that the DIARY wasn't written by Anne Frank but by 
someone else after the war.  It is a FAKE."  (See Holocaust News 1982).
	"There is no documentary evidence of the 'Holocaust', as Dr. 
Aryeh Leon Kubovy, Director of the World Center of Contemporary Jewish 
Documentation Tel Aviv admitted in La Terre Retrouvee (16 Dec. 1960):
	"There exists no document signed by Hitler, Himmler or Heydrich 
speaking of exterminating the Jews.'"
	"In the hundreds of tons of German documents that fell into 
Allied hands including the most secret records there is not one mention 
of any 'extermination plan' for the Jews or any other ethnic group.
	"There are no eye witness accounts which would stand up in any 
British or American Court of Law.  Most 'eye-witness' accounts are mere 
hearsay" (ibidem).
			QUESTIONING HOLOCAUST
	Permit us to list a few who question the Holocaust story:
	"Jewish publisher Bezalel Chaim of New York, Editor of 
REVISIONIST PRESS, which circulates literature questioning the Holocaust 
story.
	"Jewish writer Josef Ginsburg who under the pseudonym 'J.G. Burg' 
wrote of his experiences as a deportee in Nazi custody from Rumania to 
Russia.  Because, as an eyewitness and a concentration inmate, he denied 
that the Holocaust had happened, he was savagely beaten by Zionist thugs 
whilst visiting his wife grave in a Jewish cemetery in Munich.
	"Jewish writer Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal, a former U.S. State  
Department official and now editor of the anti-Zionist magazine MIDDLE 
EAST PERSPECTIVE.  Dr. Lilienthal is the author of the classic best 
seller THE ZIONIST CONNECTION (1978) which exposed Zionist power in 
America.  he has exposed the DIARY OF ANNE FRANK as a forgery.
	"French resistance hero, Professor Paul Rassinier, a Socialist 
and a former inmate of Buchenwald.  he was awarded the French Resistance 
Medal and was post-war Socialist Deputy in the French parliament.  
Professor Rassinier was one of the first academics to publicly challenge 
the 'holocaust' story in a series of scholarly works.  He died in 1967" 
(ibidem).
	Many other distinguished men could be listed.
			THE SALVATION OF THE JEWS
	Can the Pharisee Jews be saved without believing in Jesus Christ? 
 Are they saved because they hold to the Old Testament Covenant?  Are 
they God's chosen people?  One glance at the quotations from the Talmud 
quoted earlier should convince the most skeptical that the followers of 
the Talmud do not hold to the Old Testament Covenant.  Jesus Himself 
pointed out that the Traditions of the Elders nullified the Commandments 
of God.  See Mt. 15: 1-9 and Mark 7: 1-13.  Jesus also denied that the 
Pharisees, the followers of the Traditions of the Elders (now known as 
the Talmud), were Abraham's children and called them "of your father, the 
devil". See John 8:39-44.
	Can those be saved who live by the moral standard set forth in 
the Talmud?  Jesus said, 'But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the 
abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and 
idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth 
with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8)
	Like all the rest of us, unless the Pharisees repent and believe 
the Gospel there is no room in heaven for them.  this is why we 
Christians should also work and pray for the conversion and salvation of 
the Pharisee Jews.  Let us remember that the Lord converted the Pharisee 
Saul and made of him the Apostle Paul, who no doubt was the greatest 
Christian missionary of all time.  With God all things are possible.

(Note: There was  more continuance of the Christian evangelical message 
and a warning to this nation before the article posted came to a 
conclusion.  While I think there was much validity to the evanglical 
message, etc., and something to pray for, I think that for this newsgroup 
the entire preceding parts 1,2, and 3 are EXTREMELY relevant to this 
group and present some genuine challenges to those "out there".  Let he 
who has an ear hear...)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:32 PDT 1996
Article: 1927 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
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Subject: Luther and the Jews pt 2
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 19:14:05 -0700
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> 
> Understand that I wanted to avoid beginning this, but since Mr. Keren and
> others are now obviously beginning to attempt to bring this issue into
> the Christian Newsgroup I sincerely believe it is time to have a balance
> in this regard, especially since I have alse been noticing some postings
> about Hitler being a Christian, etc.  I believe it is time and I hope all
> or most of the sincere Christians will understand why this should be
> done... And, I also hope that this can cease somewhere along the line...

Part two begins:
The following is an article that appeared in "The Christian News".  It 
was entitled "Luther and the Jews" and written by Pastor R. H. Goetjen.  
There are some striking samples of information that would seem 
particularly relevant to the alt.revisionism newsgroup.  Because of the 
length of the article, It is presented here in Three parts.  This is part 
number two. You can contact "The Christian News" at: 3277 Boeuf Lutheran 
Road, New Haven, MO 63069; or, you can email them at: otten@aol.com.

	Do the Jews today still hope to enslave the Gentile population?  
Rabbi Emmanuel Rabinovich in a speech before the Emergency Council of 
European Rabbis in Budapest, Hungary, Jan. 12, 1952 made the following 
statement:  "I can safely promise you that before ten years have passed, 
our race will take its rightful place in the world, with every Jew a 
king, and every Christian a slave" (MULLIN'S HISTORY OF THE JEWS BY 
Eustace Mullins p. 128).  A copy of this speech in Yiddish fell into the 
hands of a Jewish Lawyer by the name of Henry Klein, who being horrified 
at what he read translated the speech and made copies and spread them 
abroad.  This reportedly caused them to postpone their plans.
	"As soon as the King Messiah will declare himself, he will 
destroy Rome and make it a wilderness... Then he will start a merciless 
war on non-Jews and will overpower them.  He will slay them in masses, 
kill their kings and lay waste the whole Roman land.  He will say to the 
Jews: 'I am the Kind Messiah for whom you have been waiting.  Take the 
silver and the gold from the goyim'" (JOSIAH 60,6.  Rabbi Abtrabanel to 
Daniel, 7,13--The code of the Jews).
	"even the best of the Goim (non-Jews) should be killed" (ABHODAH 
ZARAH 26B TOSEPHOTH -- THE TALMUD UNMASKED p. 82).  This means that 
Christians and other non-Jews who have leadership ability should be 
killed when the Jew Pharisees take over the country by way of a communist 
revolution.
	"Take the life of the Kliphoth and kill them, and you will please 
God the same as if he offers incense to Him" (SEPHER or ISRAEL (117b) -- 
ibidem).
	"Extermination of Christians is a necessary sacrifice" (ZOHAR II, 
43a -- JUDAISM IN ACTION p. 198f.).
	":The Christian birthrate must be materially diminished" (ZOHAR 
II 64b -- ibidem).
	"Every foreigner (non-Jew) who glorifies Sunday must be killed 
without asking him" (SANHEDRIN -- ibidem).
	"It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere.  It is 
permitted to kill him even before he was denounced" (SCHULCHAN ARUCH, 
CHOSCHEN HAMISCHPATH 338 -- ibidem).
	"He who sheds the blood of the goyim is offering a sacrifice to 
God" (TALMUD, Jaiqut Simeoni -- ibidem).
			TALMUD AND KILLING CHRISTIANS
	The Talmud recommends that Christians should be killed and 
exterminated.  Neither Luther nor this write have ever recommended that 
any Jews should be killed because he is a Jew.  We rather desire their 
repentance and salvation.
	Elizabeth Dilling in her commentary on the photostatic 
reproductions from the Talmud as it deals with Christ and Christians 
states in the following on p. 50:  "The ultimate infamy in Talmudic 
Judaism is Christ, and the target of all Talmudic hatred is not just 'the 
people who are line and ass -- slaves who are considered the property of 
the master' (KETH. IIIa).  The docile 'asses' willing to be saddled and 
used will be used as burden bearers for the masters.  But of all the 
recalcitrant 'asses' the Christians are the most insanely hated and 
loathed because their doctrines are the reverse of every Talmud doctrine. 
 They rank not just animals like the rest of the non-Talmudic humanity, 
but as vermin to be eradicated.  Language is exhausted to find foul and 
hated names for Christians in the Talmud.
	"Under the name of 'Balaam' the most lewd passages concerning 
Jesus appear.  PROOF THAT JESUS IS CALLED 'BALAAM' is found in the JEWISH 
ENCYCLOPEDIA (Balaam) which, after enumerating loathsome qualities, 
states; 'Hence . . . the pseudonym 'Balaam' given to Jesus in Sanhedrin 
106b and Gitten 57a'" (p. 50).  Mrs Dilling provides the Photostat of the 
pages from the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA where the above quotation is found.
	According to the book SANHEDRIN Jesus' (Balaam's) mother is "she 
who. . . played the harlot with carpenters. . .They subjected him to four 
deaths, stoning, burning, decapitation and strangulation. . .he was 
thirty-three or thirty-four years old'. . . The footnote explains: 
'Balaam is frequently used in the Talmud as a type of Jesus'" (OP.CIT., 
p. 51)
	"JESUS IN HELL where his punishment is "boiling hot semen'" 
(GITTEN 57a, Exh. 202-Dilling p. 51).
	"CHRISTIANS IN HELL in above passages punish by 'boiling 'hot 
excrement' which is the punishment of all who mock 'at the words of the 
sages'" (ibidem).
	"Jesus in INDEX OS SANHEDRIN, 'chief depository of the criminal 
law of the Talmud (see Dilling Exh. 43), showing page numbers where He is 
denounced.  Check with reproductions Exhib. 118'" (ibidem).  A check with 
Exh. 118 reveals that Jesus is referred to eight times in this one book 
of the Talmud.
	the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA (p. 170) also treats of Jesus, calls 
Jesus illegitimate and a bastard.  "Rabbinical sources regard Jesus as 
the 'son of Pandera' ...although it is also noteworthy that he is also 
called Ben Strada" (Dilling - Exh. 277 and 278).  Jesus is repeatedly 
accused of practicing magic or witchcraft.
			MODERN DAY JEWS AND JESUS
	Do modern day Jews still hold to such views of Jesus Christ?  
Here is what one of them has written:  "One of the finest things ever 
done by the mob was the crucifixion of Christ.  Intellectually it was a 
splendid gesture.  But trust the mob to bungle.  If I'd had charge of the 
executing Christ I'd have handled him differently.  You see, what I'd 
have done was had him shipped to Rome and fed him to the lions.  They 
never could have made a Savior out of excrement" (A JEW IN LOVE by Ben 
Hecht, quoted in JUDAISM IN ACTION p. 114)
	The JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA p. 281 furnishes evidence that Jews in 
their synagogues do indeed curse the Christians in their "petition 
against enemies", also called "imprecatory appeal", a curse which is 
directed among others against the "mimim" which the encyclopedia 
identifies as the "Judeo-Christian" (i.e., Jews who converted to 
Christianity -- ibidem, EXH. 284)
	Elizabeth Dilling summarizes these cursings thus: "The 
'religious' Jew recites the 'Eighteen Benedictions' or 'Shemonoeth 
Esreh', three times weekdays, four times on holidays and Sabbaths, the 
7th and the 12th of which curse Christians and non-Jews to hell and 
perdition.  This the 'good orthodox Jew' gives us Christiand 6 cursings 
on ordinary days, 8 on specials" (ibidem, p. 60).  Here we see why Luther 
deplored the Jewish cursing of Christians and Christ.
			RENOUNCE THE NEW TESTAMENT?
	Now we ask our readers, is there anyone of you who is not opposed 
to such "Jewish Culture'? Is it wrong to be "anti-" i.e. against the 
Pharisee Jews who hold to such devilish religious principles?  Remember, 
if you want to condemn Luther for his anti-Pharisee Jew remarks and 
treatises, then you must also condemn Jesus Christ for His anti-Pharisee 
Jew stance too.  If you believe we mist apologize for Luther's 
anti-Pharisaim, we will also have to apologize and renounce Christ's 
condemnation of the Pharisees.  They you must also renounce the New 
Testament.  A certain Jewish Rabbi by the name of Coffee declared that 
the NEW TESTAMENT is the most anti-Semitic book ever written (THE 
INTERNATIONAL JEW, VOL II, JEWISH ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES by 
Henry Ford, p. 181).
	Other rabbis have also with impunity made similar statements.  
The London Free Press stated Feb. 17, 1964, "'The Christian Gospels do 
much to encourage anti-Semitism,' Rabbi Feinberg said here yesterday."  
And the Oregonian of April 1, 1956 reported" "Rabbi Juliou J. Nodel in 
the role of defense attorney for the Jews of the world Friday night 
branded the New Testament a work of malicious libel."
	Actually, to try to insult a Christian by calling him 
anti-Semitic would be like a person during World War II trying to insult 
a patriotic American by calling him anti-Fascist or anti-Nazi.  And 
anyone who would have tried such a stunt would have been judged as being 
out of his right mind, and rightly so.  Likewise those who try to smear 
and insult true Christians who wish to maintain that they are not 
anti-Semitic.  The Pharisee Jews are not so foolish as to maintain that 
they are not anti-Christian.
	Maj.-Gen, Count Cherep-Spiridovich expresses his opinion this: 
"Whoever forgets or omits the Jewish question, be it through ignorance, 
or fear, is unfit to be a preacher, teacher or official" (THE SECRET 
WORLD GOVERNMENT or THE HIDDEN HAND), Dr. Martin Luther passed this test.
	Did Jesus say too much when he denounced the Pharisees as 
hypocrites, whited sepulchers, as of their father the devil, etc.?  Jesus 
is our example that we should walk in his steps (1 Pet. 2:21).   Can we 
be followers of Jesus Christ without opposing the enemies of God even as 
Jesus did?  We note that King David also hated God's enemies with a 
perfect hatred (Ps. 139: 21,22).  The seer Jehu announced that God's 
wrath was up King Jehoshaphat because the king helped the ungodly and 
loved them that hate the LORD (2 Chron. 19:2).
	Jesus said, "He that is not with Me, is against Me."  If we are 
not with Christ in condemning the Pharisee Jews, then we are against 
Christ, i.e., anti-Christ.  The choice is between being anti-Pharisee or 
being anti-Christ.  We cannot be both for God and for the devil.  So we 
also cannot be both for the Son of God and for the sons of the devil.
		LUTHER DENOUNCING PHARISEE JEWS
	Luther made his choice.  Like King David he chose to be against 
God's enemies.  He, like Jesus Christ, denounced the Pharisee Jews in no 
uncertain terms.  he followed in the footsteps of his Saviour.  As Christ 
denounced the Pharisees in the hearing of His disciples to protect them 
>from  "the leaven of the Pharisees" (MT. 16:6-12), so Luther also preached 
and wrote against the Pharisee Jews of his day to protect his followers 
>from  such liars, deceivers, blasphemers and cursers of Christ and 
Christians.
	To my knowledge, no one has ever attempted to prove that Luther 
was guilty of making false charges against the Jews.  On the contrary, 
the only charge that his accusers try to make about Luther is that of 
opposing or "hating" the Jews, even though Luther always indicated his 
desire to see the Jews converted and saved.  The problem today seems to 
be that all too many Christians have lost the virtue of righteous 
indignation as this is taught in Holy Scripture and which Jesus Christ 
"Who did no sin" practised in His ministry.  In fact, many "Christians" 
consider righteous indignation a sin.  This makes Jesus Christ a sinner.
	All that Christian need to protect their good name is laws 
against slander and libel.  Slander is oral false witness or lies.  Libel 
is written false witness or lies.  A criminal's good name cannot be 
protected by laws against slander and libel.  His opponents by telling 
the truth about him either orally or in writing can take away his good 
name.  Criminals need laws against "hate" and/or "racism", or 
"anti-Semitism", then the law abiding citizen goes to jail and the 
criminal or criminal group can go free.  In the Soviet Union the law 
abiding citizen does not just go to jail but is put to death, if he is 
found guilty of "anti-Semitism" before a secret court.
	Donald Day in his book, ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS states: "From 
all over the world Jewish revolutionaries poured into Russia to take 
vengeance upon the Russian people and to help the erection of a new 
imperialist Jewish power, one of whose first decrees was TO MAKE 
ANTI-SEMITISM A CRIME PUNISHABLE BY DEATH" (p. 95. Emphasis added).
	A prominent Pharisee Jew wrote: "With the rise of the Soviet 
regime, the Jews have been granted rights not accorded even the most 
advanced countries.  The state which grievously did not employ the Jews, 
now employs in White Russia 61% Jewish officials.  A Jew is the president 
of the state bank; Jews occupy almost all important ambassadorial 
positions; universities, professions, judiciary and administration now 
have a greater percentage of Jews than any other nationality.  
Anti-Semitism has been declared a state offense, and is punished as 
counter-revolution" (Rabbi Stephen Wise, in JEWISH OPINION, December 
1933).
			"HATE" LAWS
"Hate" laws have been passed in some western countries.  Canada passed a 
"Hate" law about 14 years ago.  Recently a high school teacher was 
arrested because he taught his pupils to look at both sides of the 
question of the "Holocaust".  Because he questioned the alleged fact that 
six million Jews were killed by the Germans in World War II, he may spend 
two years behind iron bars.
	Strangely enough there have been many Christians and so many 
so-called Christians who have been deluded into believing that it is a 
sin for Christians to hate the Pharisee Jews but is no sin for the 
Pharisee Jews to hate Christians, Luther and the Germans.  why is it so 
much more vile to be anti-Pharisee Jew than to be anti-Christ, 
anti-Christian, anti-Luther and/or anti-German?
	Luther never advocated the killing of a single Jew, just as he 
never advocate the killing of a single heretic.  It is true that Luther 
did advise the expulsion of the Jews from the country.  This was not 
something new.  England, for example, had exiled them for 400 years and 
at the time of Luther the Jews were not allowed in England.  Spain had 
exiled the Jews in 1492.  Nearly every country in Europe had expelled the 
Jews at one time or another.  They were not citizens but resident aliens, 
guests.  Because of their wicked Pharisee "culture", the made themselves 
unwelcome guests wherever they went.  We should remember that the U.S.A. 
also reserves the right to expel aliens if they do not live by the laws 
of the land.  Since the Jews did not live by the laws of the land, the 
German prince had every right to expel them, these ungrateful guests, 
>from  his lands.
	"We believe we have shown the immense chasm which separates the 
Jew and the Christian.  Judaism is directly opposed to Christianity.  We 
repeat, then, that in a Christian country the Jew is a danger which must 
be fought, since his religion makes it imperative for him to do things 
prejudicial to the Christian spirit which should dominate our country.
	"Not to want to fight the Jew on religious grounds seems to us a 
serious mistake.  Because, if we do not oppose him on such a ground, we 
acknowledge his right to laws prescribed by his religion ... Consequently 
if we acknowledge his right to be a robber according to his religion, we 
give him the right to rob us.  You may see where such a theory leads us' 
(quoted in WHY WE CHRISTIANS SHOULD OPPOSE JEWS by Dr. P.E. Lalane, M.D., 
Montreal, Canada, p. 10).  We may add that this theory may lead also to 
having them rape our children and women and slaughtering us like cattle.
		RELIGION AND RACE
	This we see that Luther was not alone in seeing the damage that 
is done to a country by the Pharisee Jew and his Babylonian Talmud.  It 
must be remembered that Jews who are sincerely converted to Christianity 
are not responsible for this evil. then there are also Jews who have 
drifted away from Pharisee Jew Talmudic religion and have absorbed the 
Christian values and morals of their Christian neighbors.  They also must 
not be classified with the Pharisee Talmudic Jew.  IT IS NOT THEIR RACIAL 
STOCK BUT THEIR RELIGION WHICH MAKES THE PHARISEE TALMUDIC JEW WHAT HE 
IS.  Some of the bravest opponents to the evils of Zionism and Talmudism 
have come from non-Talmudic Jews.

		End of part two.  Part three, the final part, goes into 
the "Holocaust"


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:34 PDT 1996
Article: 2304 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: 'Holocaust Revisionism' Nonsense (Re: Noah & other bible myths)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 21:13:24 -0700
Organization: home
Lines: 94
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Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
> 
> >     I realize when the world's leading expert, after examining the gas
> > chambers concludes " The was no cyanide used in the gas chambers", that
> > this presents a problem for the Jews and their minions.

Yes, and it's called "conclusive evidence"  look, this isn't a matter of 
sympathy or that stuff, this is a matter of proper perspective and 
justice.  If you are going to accuse someone of terrible crimes is is not 
out of order to require proper evidence of the accuser!  "believe" what 
you want to chose, but others have the right to ask "where's your 
evidence" and if it seems inconclusive, then... 



> Since the Nazis destroyed the gas chambers at Auschwitz Birkenau, to hide
> the evidence of their terrible crime, how could anyone examine them?

Since the guy who stole my million dollars changed his name and got rid 
of the evidence I have no case.  You believe I had a million dollars?  
Well maybe so, but maybe not so. This just doesn't hold up, and here you 
are accusing people of some terrible things.

> >
> >     But people tend to believe an expert over some who are attempting
> > to perpetuate hatred toward those of the White race...And Fred Leuchter
> > is the expert in this field....We believe his conclusions over yours
> > and the Jews.

Leucheter was not an "expert" but it does not make him incapable of doing 
a decent job either.  The point is that his report was confirmed by 
people "on the other side" but because of the time span involved the 
report (to my understanding) is inconclusive.  It's a report.  If 
Leuchter want to voice his own opinion that this is conclusive, that's 
his privlege, but...

 
> Why do you conclude that I hate the white race or any race for that matter?
> This is not subject on which I have a mere opinion. I have examined the
> documents and seen the evidence. The leaders of Nazi Germany did attempt to
> exterminate the Jews and were responsible for the murder of between 4 and 6
> million Jews. That is not opinion. That is historical fact. I am as sure of
> it as I am sure that Abraham Lincoln was President of the United States
> during the Civil War.

This is NOT historical fact, because there is not a single document, in 
writing from Hitler or his cronies giving an order to exterminate all the 
Jews of Europe, and this "supposed conspiracy" is just that, a theory 
drawn by some historians on the basis of conclusions drawn from other 
happenings and such.  But there is no document, so...?

> 
> >
> >     Now we know that you will try to discredit anyone who proclaims the
> > truth, and we know that you and the Jews will try to discredit Fred
> > Leuchter.
> 
> I do not have to discredit Fred Leuchter. He discredits himself by showing
> that he is either dishonest, knows nothing about the subject, or is an
> outright liar. No real historian denies the terrible reality of the
> holocaust.

A logical fallacy.  By saying that "no real historian" disagrees with you 
 you are attempting to define your opposition out of existence.  It 
simply is not true.  Many good historians disagree, and that is whey the 
conflict is ensuing...

> 
> >     BTW, still looking for that commincation involving Rudolph Hess and
> > other German officiers speaking of exterminating Jews....Hope you'll be
> > able to post it for us.
> >
> By the above, you show that you really know nothing about the subject. By
> confusing Rudolph Hoess with Rudolph Hess, you show that you do not know
> who Rudolph Hoess was. Rudolph Hoess was the commandant of Auschwitz
> Birkenau. Rudolph Hess was the aid to Hitler who parachuted down to
> Scotland on May 10, 1941. 

Oh, come on now--!

If you do not know that, you obviously know
> little or nothing about the holocaust.

What is known is that obviously there is much about it that isn't really 
settled.  There are a lot of unanswerd questions, and if you are going to 
accuse a people of such horror, you'b\ve got to get the facts or drop it!

> I suggest that you read a good  book on the history of Third Reich before
> you continue to make a fool of yourself.

Oh, come on--! Yah da da da da dah!  My father can beat up your father...


> Fr. John +


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:35 PDT 1996
Article: 2314 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Mr. Keren also ignores this aspect
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:52:28 -0700
Organization: home
Lines: 36
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References: <4t8q77$reb@metroux.metrobbs.com>  <31FA84DE.6949@mail.gte.net> <31fb7536.578470@news.pacificnet.net> <4thoqc$lus@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <31fccc4d.2038431@news.pacificnet.net>
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tom moran wrote:
> 
> abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:
> 
> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> >>I personally don't know what Leuchter's qualifications are, but it is
> >>evident he did some test at Auschwitz. Keren says here "Leuchter
> >>himself states very clearly ..." that there were cyanide traces found
> >>at Auschwitz, seeming to use Leuchter himself as a reliable source.
> >
> >Grah! I can't believe it. This great paladine of revisionism hasn't even
> >_read_ the Leuchter report!
> 
>         Were does it say I never read the report? Personally I have
> stated before that I think it is inconclusive. I posted that under
> "Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today" along with my critique of the
> Crackow Report, of which I said the same thing.
>         You read words, then report on what you read right under the
> material that your reading on, where your interpretation is not
> supported by the text. That's what happens when little boys get snide.
> They blurt out. Mindless like.

Actually, what's the big deal?  All the posting said was that the Krakow 
people confirmed Leuchter's report, but also indicated (as you said) that 
the report was inconclusive because there was no way of knowing for sure 
how long certain amounts of traces would be remaining after so long a 
time.  Once again, this incredible overreaction and accusatory remarks by 
anyone who "dares" to question the one-sided opinion of those events in 
WW2?  It is this attitude that gives me cause to wonder about the 
validity of many of the other stories.  Like I've said since I got 
involved in this, I think the truth is somewhere betweenst, because both 
sides of the issue appear to have an ax to grind.  

"There are three sides to every divorce: His, Hers, and the truth!"
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:36 PDT 1996
Article: 2315 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: 'Holocaust Revisionism' Nonsense (Re: Noah & other bible myths)
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:59:02 -0700
Organization: home
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	 <4t3s89$1dv@metroux.metrobbs.com> 
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	 <01bb7a91$492f3de0$0cce77cc@michaelp> 
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Puck wrote:
> 
> >> :     Not one shread of paper has every been found, speaking of the
> >> : extermination of Jews in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's....If they
> >> : could find even one, can you imagine the monument the Jews and Judeo's
> >> : would build around it?
> >> :     This is incredible being as Germany was a country of over 50
> >> : million people, with many officers in their army....Yet the Jews have
> >> : come up with nothing....How could any thinking person believe in such a
> >> : Jewish fable?
> >>
> >> :     Brethren, the Word says: " Not giving heed to Jewish
> >> :    fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.", Titus
> >> : 1:14.....Are these not true Words for us, even in this very
> >> : day?....Jewish fables do turn us from the Truth.
> >>
> >> :     Hail Jesus' Victory!
> 
>     I dont know what you mean by 'shred of paper', You obviously are'nt
> talking about the pictures that my Uncle took at Belsen. My Uncle was a
> L.Cpl. and of no importance as far as recorded history goes, he was an
> atheist to boot and so had no religious axe to grind, so he was able to
> keep the 9 frames he had taken, hidden from the authorities (Alies)
> who's first response to what they found, was to hush it up
>    The holocost happened, and whether they were jews ,chinks .wops
> .coons .spics .greasers .daigoes or wogs, no jumped up half baked little
> wanker who thinks the austrian decorator was a pussy cat, has the right
> to deny it.
> 
>   My appologies to any group who feel themselvs to be represented by the
> derogatory phrasiology I used, the fact is ,this wanker strikes me as a
> pious christian racest,and so I use the words it understands, although
> it may have trouble with the words of more than four letters.

A "Pious CHRISTIAN RACIST"  This is getting interesting and pointed, I 
think...
> --
> Puck

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:37 PDT 1996
Article: 2378 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: biblical revisionism
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:48:58 -0700
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Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
> 
> The Very Rev. John W. Morris writes:
> 
> Tell me, "Rev." who gave you the right to call yourself, "Rev." Were you
> ordained by someone with the authority to ordain, or did you simply
> proclaim yourself a minister? Do you have a real parish in a real
> denomination, or are you simply the leader of a small group of racists?
> 
> Fr. John +

John, I don't support all of what the "rev" has to say, and he and I even 
had what could be called a "run in" on the sidelines.  But none of the 12 
apostles (appointed by God Himesle) or the Lord Himself went to a 
university.  Right now there are a bunch of "scholars" out there (the 
Jesus Seminar) that are doing a work or "REVISIONISM" unparalled in 
Christian history and they're tearing the Scriptures to pieces!  So your 
contention has no basis or bearing on the truth.  A lot of what the "rev" 
has to say either does or does not line up with truth in perspective of 
Biblical revelation.  Finally, if you a Roman Catholic Priest and adhere 
to ALL the teachings of the Roman Church, then there's a lot I would 
personally have to question about your position on Biblical revelation, 
authority, etc.  But for now, I just wanted to say that "rev's" academic 
credentials have nothing to do with the issue.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:38 PDT 1996
Article: 2412 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Royce would not write that
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 19:02:19 -0700
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Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
> 
> Royce Buehler  wrote in article
> <4taq1m$nn6@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>...
> > Jews control the courts. Jews instantly brainwash everyone who steps
> > into a jury box with their little secret brainwashing rays. Jews
> > control all the seminaries and bible colleges in the country, which
> > is why any Christian who disagrees with Mr. Goddard is demoted to
> > a "Judeo-Christian". Jews control all the people in the pews of
> > Christian churches. Jews control all the media. Jews control the
> > Internet.
> >
> Fr. John W. Morris responds:
> 
> If you really believe the above, you are seriously in need of professional
> help. I assure you that Jews do not control the people in the pews of my
> Church, most of whom are Syrian Americans.
> 
> Fr. John +

Although I can be positive, I think you've got the wrong guy here.  From 
what I know of Royce Buehler he would not have written what you say he 
did.  Check it out again.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:39 PDT 1996
Article: 2430 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.apocalypse,alt.atheism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.blasphemy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.drugs.culture,alt.drugs.pot.cultivation,alt.evil,alt.individualism,alt.pagan,alt.psychoactives,alt.punk,alt.rave,alt.religion.asatru,alt.religion.wicca,alt.satanism,alt.zen,fidonet.bible,fidonet.church.state,rec.drugs.cannabis,talk.atheism
Subject: The faith of an evolutionist
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:30:46 -0700
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Aaron Bergman wrote:
> =

> Sam T=E2n (Stuart.Billington@btinternet.com) wrote:
> =

> : Look, lets sort this out.
> : Man does not "evolve", for evolution implies an intelligent progression=
=2E
> =

> Nope. Evolution does not contain any progress paradigm. There is
> no intelligent progression implied.
> =

> : I would argue that man mutates.
> =

> Mutations are a cause for evolution.
> =

> : The DNA structure is copied billions of times, is it not plausable that=
 lots of "errors" will
> : creep into the structure as it is copied?
> =

> Plausible nothing. It is a _fact_ that errors occur.
> =

> : Some of these errors actually improve upon the result, ie. more upright=
 posture, some of them
> : completely fuck up the result, ie. (umm, insert tragic mutation here).
> =

> Cystic Fibrosis.
> =

> Aaron
> --
> Aaron Bergman -- abergman@minerva.cis.yale.edu
> 
> The quote left intentionally blank.

To believe that all things evolve by accident takes a greater faith than =

ever required of a Bible-believing Christian.  To believe that all things =

happen by a series of zillions of chance happenings bringing about order =

requires a faith far beyond the capacity of a rational thinker.  This =

argument is a matter of "belief."  If you believe when  you walk into a =

room and see a chair there, perfectly suited for you to sit in and use, =

yet believe it just "evolved" there rather than somebody constructing =

it... Well, to believe so flies in the face of all other observable =

facts.  Still, one "believes" what one wants to, but science has nothing =

to do with it.  Evolution is a relgion, a "belief" system, and one that I =

reject on the basis of all observable facts and experience.  =

-- =

"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:40 PDT 1996
Article: 2431 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Not true and there's a book to prove it!
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 19:15:12 -0700
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Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
> =

> Rev  wrote in article
> <4ta2bo$mi2@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>...
> >     You mean the way the Stalin and the Jews killed 25 million
> > Christians in Russia?...Is that how you propose to keep your story
> > going?
> =

> Fr. John W. Morris responds:
> =

> The Communists did murder millions of Orthodox Christians. However, they
> also murdered many Jews. Stalin was not a Jew and was very anti-Semitic. =
To
> blame the Bolshevik Revolution on the Jews is to ignore the facts of
> history, but you are very good at that.
> > >> : >
> > >> : >
> > >> :     Not one shread of paper has every been found, speaking of the
> > >> : extermination of Jews in Germany in the 1930's and 1940's....If
> > they
> > >>
> That is simply not true. There is a multitude of documentation of the
> holocaust.
> =

> Please do not blaspheme the name of Christ by associating it with your
> insane lies.
> =

> Fr. John +

Wrong again.  Read the information below and send away for the book they =

have been trying to ban in America.  It documents lots of evidence to =

show the persecution of Christians and other Russians under Marx, Lenin =

and Trotsky -- Jews.  This does NOT mean all Jews are like them -- just =

like all Christians are NOT like... whatever!  But to attempt to restrict =

the facts and deny the evidence -- again, this is both suspicious and =

unacceptable...

>From  the site: http://www.adam.com.au/~fredadin/adins.html
Adelaide Institute - The final intellectual adventure
THE FINAL INTELLECTUAL ADVENTURE OF THE 20TH CENTURY
We are a group of individuals who are looking at the Jewish-Nazi =

Holocaust, in particular we are investigating the allegation that Germans =

systematically killed six million Jews, four million alone at the =

Auschwitz concentration camp. In our investigations we refuse to be =

intimidated by anyone because we believe that the first step in any =

murder investigation is to forensically test the alleged murder weapon. =

In the Auschwitz murder case, certain individuals wish to prevent us from =

focusing upon such an investigation.
The latest version of how the Germans gassed millions of Jews at =

Auschwitz is propagated by Professor Deborah Lipstadt of Emory University =

in the U.S.A. who claims that mortuaries were converted into homicidal =

gas chambers. Proof of this is apparently found in so-called "conversion =

plans". We have requested of Professor Lipstadt and of the Holocaust =

Museum, Washington, to provide us with copies of such conversion plans.  =

We are still waiting for them to provide us with these plans.
In the meantime we have noted the original four million Auschwitz death =

figure has been reduced by Jean Claude Pressac to a maximum of 800,000. =

This in itself is good news because it means that around 3.2 million =

people never died at Auschwitz - a cause for celebration.
We are worried about the fact that to date it has been impossible to =

reconstruct a homicidal gas chamber. Even the Holocaust Museum in =

Washington informed us that it could not bring one across from Europe =

because there are none available. This is like a space museum without a =

rocket or the Vatican without a Crucifix. We are justifiably sceptical =

about the homicidal gas chamber claims.
We reject outright that a questioning of the alleged homicidal gas =

chamber story constitutes "hate talk", is "anti-Semitic", "racist"  or =

even "neo-Nazi" activity.

The director of the Adelaide Institute, Dr Fredrick Töben, puts it =

thus:
"If I offend anybody because I show poor taste in my sometime blunt and =

honest questioning, then I apologise. However, if I offend because I am =

politically incorrect by asking uncomfortable questions, then I claim it =

as my right, under the free speech principle, to say these things."
We at the Adelaide Institute also focus on the Jewish-Bolshevik
Holocaust, a matter which Australian author Helen Demidenko-Darville has =

raised in her book The Hand That Signed The Paper. The controversy =

generated by this novel still continues.
Adelaide Institute associate, Mr David Brockschmidt, sums up the essence =

of Demidenko-Darville's 'crime' in writing this book:

"The merit of Helen Demidenko-Darville's novel - and hidden agenda of the =

anti-Demidenko affair - is that she has revealed a basic historical fact, =

viz, that Lenin's henchman, Trotzky (Bronstein) and Stalin's henchman, =

Kaganovich, were  Jewish mass murderers. This historical fact clearly =

shows that Jews are not always victims in history, but also murderers. =

Australia's  mass media has failed to publicise this important fact. =

Why?"

David Brockschmidt displays his parents' medal received from the West =

German government for saving Jews during World War II. The Brockschmidt =

family was also honoured by the Israeli Government and a tree in their =

memory has been planted in the Avenue of the Righteous Gentiles, =

Jerusalem, Israel.
David's father was also instrumental in providing Oskar Schindler with =

the trucks which transported the Schindler Jews from Poland to =

Czechoslovakia. Steven Spielberg, who knew the vital role Brockschmidt =

played in this operation failed to give credit to David's father. Why?
These two historical issues - the Jewish-Bolshevik Holocaust and the =

Nazi-Jewish Holocaust - are worthy subjects for an intellectual enquiry. =

We are aware of the fact that to venture forth in to such an enquiry can =

be dangerous.
Professor Robert Faurisson (France), Mr David Irving (England), Dr =

Wilhelm Stäglich, Professor Udo Walendy, Messrs Günter Deckert, =

Germar Rudolf, Mr Thies Christopherson, Pastor Manfred Junger (Germany), =

Mr Ditlieb Felderer (Sweden), Mr Hans Schmidt (U.S.A.), and Mr Ernst =

Zündel (Canada) are people who have suffered physically, mentally and =

materially as a result of their search for truth in history. The enemies =

of freedom of speech will use physical and legal violence - persecution =

through prosecution - to stifle debate on these contentious historical =

issues. There is a tremendous pressure placed on people who dare touch =

these taboo subjects. All too often the first thing that snaps is the =

family unit, followed by professional and social ostracism.
So, be warned - this final intellectual journey is not for the =

faint-hearted. If you dare to seek the truth, in particular about the =

alleged homicidal gassings, then you will be smeared, libelled and =

defamed by those who are intellectual midgets but materialistic giants.
If you are mentally strong enough to seek the truth of the matter, then =

force an open debate. Don't get side tracked by details and always =

refocus on the basics. Too many individuals drown in a sea of =

particulars.
People who claim that during World War II, the Germans gassed millions of =

Jews are levelling three allegations at the Germans:
   1.    The Germans planned the construction of huge chemical slaughter =

houses;
   2.    The Germans constructed these huge chemical slaughterhouses =

during the middle of World War II; and
   3.    The German used these huge slaughterhouses to exterminate =

millions of Jews.

Any normal person familiar with bureaucratic red tape will now ask:
What proof is there to back up these claims? Firstly, where are the plans =

of this enterprise? Secondly, where is the budget needed to finance the =

massive enterprise? Finally, it is inconceivable that such a massive =

undertaking would get past first base without an executive order. To =

date, we have been led to believe that "a wink and a nudge" began the =

alleged extermination project.
We at Adelaide Institute believe that those who level the homicidal =

gassing allegations at the Germans owe it to the world to come up with =

irrefutable evidence that this happened.
Instead, these defamers and libellers of the Germans use legal means to =

stifle debate on the topic. They claim that anyone who asks questions is =

engaging in "hate-talk", is "anti-Semeitic" is a "racist", even a =

"neo-Nazi".
If that doesn't work,then physical violence is used to silence those who =

want to know the truth.
So, come on board if you have the courage to look for truth. We naturally =

maintain that should - after fifty years- proof of the homicidal gassings =

be forthcoming, we shall gladly publicise this as well. To date, there =

has been no proof offered to the world. Robert Faurisson sums it up well: =

"No holes, no Holocaust!"
We are not "holocaust deniers". We proudly proclaim that to date there is =

no evidence that millions of people were killed in homicidal gas =

chambers. That is good news all round. Why would anyone find this =

offensive? We are celebrating the living who were thought dead. How can =

this be an offence - unless it offends those who have their snout in the =

trough which Jewish academic, Dr Frank Knopfelmacher called, "the =

Holocaust racket".
If there is to be a mission statement from Adelaide Institute, then it is =

best summed up in a letter which appeared in The Australian on 22 =

February, 1996. Written by John Buchner of Camden of NSW, nine days =

before the 2nd March federal election:
OPEN SEASON ON GERMANS
Phillip Adams referred in a recent column of Review, 13 - 14 January =

1996, to a number of foreign situations, which are dealt with in a =

jocular fashion, but he refers to the German people in a contemporary =

sense as "Nazi	swine". Many people from a German background have settled =

in Australia and made a significant contribution to it, including serving =

in its armed forces against the Nazi regime. Their memory is vilified by =

Mr Adams' reference.
During my school years here, I endured continual vilification because of =

my German origins and countless "Hitler Salutes".
However, my complaint to you is not motivated by a chip on the shoulder =

because of these events. Like most Australians, I can take it and abhor =

the treatment other national groups have received.
My concern is that there seems to be a perpetual open season on all =

Germans, as though all Germans must forever bear the guilt and shame of =

the Nazi regime.
I can bear references to "Nazi Swine", albeit without amusement. But what =

of my children? Are my children to be forever classed "Nazi Swine" in =

this country?
		  John Buchner
		  Camden, NSW

Interestingly, a climate of political correctness pervaded the run-up =

period to the 2nd of March federal elections, with Liberal and National =

candidates coming in for some sharp rebukes from their Labor colleagues =

over publicly-made alleged racist statements. For example, there  was Bob =

Katter who lashed out at "enviro-Nazis", "femi-Nazis" and "slant-eyed =

ideologues". Only the latter statement created an uproar. The "Nazi" word =

has been used by a number of politicians from all parties because it =

still has a sting to it. After all, everything done by the Germans prior =

to and after World War II is eclipsed by what is alleged to have happened =

at Auschwitz concentration camp. The argument is always "from Mozart, =

Beethoven and Wagner to the homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz". That's =

the card pulled out by anyone who is faced with competition from a =

German-born Australian or Australian of German descent.
It is from this basis that we take it as our right to challenge the taboo =

topic's veracity - did the Germans operate homicidal gas chambers at =

Auschwitz? It is too cheap for us to decry our work as that of =

"hate-mongers", "anti-Semites","racists" or "neo-Nazis". Let us repeat: =

we are not deniers of the Jewish-Nazi Holocaust. We affirm that to date =

there is no proof that millions of people were gassed by Germans in =

homicidal gas chambers. Dare you join us in this final intellectual =

adventure of the 20th Century?

Adelaide Institute Newsletters
No. 37 - April 1996      Available soon
No. 36 - March 1996      Available soon
No. 35 - February 1996   Available soon
No. 34 - January 1996    Available soon
No. 33 - December 1995   Available soon

What is available
=95	Fredrick Töben : Political Correctness In Our Schools - Paper =

presented at the National Conference Of The Australian College of =

Education: "Tomorrow's Teachers", Adelaide, 2-6 October 1995.
ISBN 0646 26799X.
=95	Fredrick Töben (Compiler): Political Correctness Is No Joke - =

The Leuchter Case, 1995. ISBN 0 646 24194 X.
=95	David Brockschmidt: Schindler's List, Bridging the Gap between =

Political Correctness and Historical Correctness, 1995, Video.
=95	Fredrick Töben: Adelaide War Crimes Trials, 1995, Video.
=95	David Irving - Fighting Back - Confronting Deborah Lipstadt, 11 =

November 1994. Video.

Interesting Revisionist Sites
Zündelsite (Canada - English/French/German)
Greg Raven - Institute for Historical Review
(USA - English)

Bradley Smith - Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust (CODOH)
(USA - English/French)
Ahmed Rami - Radio Islam
(Sweden - English, French, German, Norwegian, Swedish)
Interesting Exterminationist Sites
Ken McVay - The Nizkor Project (Canada - English)
Simon Wiesenthal Centre (USA - Multilingual)
UPDATES
The Faurisson Forum
The Irving Interlude
The Zündel Site
A Book Boycott
Historical Flashback - Zyklon B
A discussion on Radio National
A question addressed to some philosophers

Please feel free to contact us at;
 Adelaide Institute
 PO Box 3300
 Norwood
 SA 5067

 Ph.  61 8 331 0808
 Fax. 61 8 332 2908

Or email Fredrick Töben for more information or comments.

-- =

"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:41 PDT 1996
Article: 2472 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: webster definitifon of Semite
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:36:50 -0700
Organization: home
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Michael Swihart wrote:
> =

> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> >
> > >In <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> >
> > >Classic straw man -- an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > >can easily be struck down.  Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > >--  not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you.  Anti-Semite has a specific
> > >meaning.  it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800's by
> > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings.  Webster: a
> > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> >
> >         "Anti-Semite" Anyone hostile to Jews,  might be a dictionary
> > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
> =

> By similar reasoning, one could also say that the "Big Ten" has ten
> universities and the "Midwest" is in the western part of the USA.
> =

> (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
> =

> As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> invented the misnomer.
> =

> M.Swihart
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.

Here's the Webster definition of Semite.  Anyone want to dispute with =

them send them a letter!

Sem-ite (sem'iet; esp. Brit. see'miet)  n. =

                  1.  a member of a people speaking a Semitic =

                       language.
                  2.  a member of any of the peoples descended =

                       from Shem, the eldest son of Noah.
             [1870-75; < NL semita < LL Sem (< Gk S=E9m < Heb =

             Shem SHEM) + -ita - ITE 1]
-- =

"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:42 PDT 1996
Article: 2473 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: definition of Semitic
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:38:25 -0700
Organization: home
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Michael Swihart wrote:
> 
> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> >
> > >In <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> >
> > >Classic straw man -- an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > >can easily be struck down.  Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > >--  not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you.  Anti-Semite has a specific
> > >meaning.  it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800's by
> > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings.  Webster: a
> > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> >
> >         "Anti-Semite" Anyone hostile to Jews,  might be a dictionary
> > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
> 
> By similar reasoning, one could also say that the "Big Ten" has ten
> universities and the "Midwest" is in the western part of the USA.
> 
> (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
> 
> As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> invented the misnomer.
> 
> M.Swihart
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.

Webster's definition.  Want to dispute this, send them a letter!
Se-mit-ic (suh mit'ik)  n. 
                  1.  a family of languages, a branch of the 
                       Afroasiatic family, comprising a number 
                       of ancient and modern languages of SW 
                       Asia and Africa, as Akkadian, Aramaic, 
                       Hebrew, Arabic, and Amharic.
              adj. 
                  2.  of or pertaining to the Semitic languages 
                       or their speakers.
             [< NL semiticus = semit (a) SEMITE + -icus - IC]
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:43 PDT 1996
Article: 2480 of alt.bible.prophecy
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!eru.mt.luth.se!newsfeed.luth.se!news.luth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!news.gte.net!usenet
From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: Re: 'Holocaust Revisionism' Nonsense (Re: Noah & other bible myths)
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:57:14 -0700
Organization: home
Lines: 99
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Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
> 
> bud  wrote in article
> <31FEDD64.4C10@mail.gte.net>...
> 
> > Yes, and it's called "conclusive evidence"  look, this isn't a matter of
> > sympathy or that stuff, this is a matter of proper perspective and
> > justice.  If you are going to accuse someone of terrible crimes is is not
> 
> > out of order to require proper evidence of the accuser!  "believe" what
> > you want to chose, but others have the right to ask "where's your
> > evidence" and if it seems inconclusive, then...
> >
> Fr. John W. Morris responds:
> 
> There are volumes of evidence. The allies did not just take the leaders of
> Nazi Germany out and shoot them. They gave them a fair trial at Nuremberg
> and supported their accusations with documents and testimony. The
> defendants had attorneys to represent them and the right to reject any
> document used during the trial. Rudolf Hoess, the commandant of Auschwitz
> Birkenau, gave a detailed account of how he built gas chambers and was
> personally responsible for the murder of millions of Jews at one camp
> alone.
> >
> >
> > This is NOT historical fact, because there is not a single document, in
> > writing from Hitler or his cronies giving an order to exterminate all the
> 
> > Jews of Europe, and this "supposed conspiracy" is just that, a theory
> > drawn by some historians on the basis of conclusions drawn from other
> > happenings and such.  But there is no document, so...?
> 
> In a sense you are correct. There does not exist a document with Hitler's
> signature authorizing the extermination of the Jews. However, that is
> really a straw man because there is abundant proof that the Holocaust took
> place and enough circumstantial evidence to prove in a court of law that
> Hitler knew about it. There are eyewitness accounts of his discussions
> during dinner, "Hitler's Table Talk," that indicate that he knew about and
> approved of the death camps. Hitler made a speech at the beginning of the
> war during which he threatened to rid Europe of the Jews.
> >
> Many good historians disagree, and that is whey the
> > conflict is ensuing...
> >
> The so called "revisionist" historians, are not real historians. I have yet
> to see a work by a recognized historian of the Third Reich which disproves
> the traditional accounts of the Holocaust. There are works by pseudo
> historians whose work is highly suspect because of their thinly veiled
> anti-Semitism, that attempt to discredit the works of real historians.
> However, if one really looks at the issue, these pseudo historians have not
> proven their argument. I studied the Third Reich as a student at Johann von
> Goethe University in Frankfurt am Main as a Fulbright scholar. I still
> remember when the professor, himself a nephew of a prominent Second World
> War German General, cried as he described the crimes against the Jews by
> the Nazis. You may not consider me an expert or an historian, but Purdue
> and Indiana Universities considered me enough of an expert to pay me to
> teach German history at their campus in Fort Wayne, Indiana. I can tell you
> without the slightest hesitation that the Holocaust is not a myth.
> 
> > > I suggest that you read a good  book on the history of Third Reich
> before
> > > you continue to make a fool of yourself.
> >
> > Oh, come on--! Yah da da da da dah!  My father can beat up your father...
> >
> Although you belittle it, it is a legitimate question. Have you read any of
> the classic studies of Hitler, the Extermination of the Jews or the Third
> Reich? If not, how can you presume to speak to this issue?

Read lots from both sides.  Nuremburg was a travesty, and there were 
several justices who said it at the time.  As for "war Crimes" I haven't 
found many who deny that numerous crimes occurred.  What is being 
questioned is the "gas chamber" stories, the seemingly exaggerated 6 
million figure, etc.  The stories have grown more and more bizarre over 
the years.  Good historians (despite you attempting to denegrate their 
documentation and efforts) have successfully brought some of the 
discrepancies into focus, raising questions.  I reject this idea that a 
person is anti-semitic just because he questions some of the claims.  
It's an attempt to "silence" opposition and is very suspect!  What kind 
of "historical fact" needs legal sanctions against its opponents?  Could 
you imagine if we Christians were to demand people be incarcerated 
because they do not believe the historicity of the Bible and the 
resurrection of Christ?!  Millions of Christians have died for these 
beliefs, do we then try to have those who oppose our view to be thrown 
into jail or label them as "hate groups" or "anti" whatever?!  There is a 
loss of perspective here.  Finally, even IF somebody were a so-called 
"anti-semite" it DOES NOT mean they are lying!  I think Satan himself 
would tell you the truth if it suited him.  And why do you address this 
part of the issue and not comment on the myriad "anti-Christian" 
statements of the Talmud and other Jewish religious writings and beliefs? 
Are not our feelings important?  Maybe we should have them put into jail 
for denying the Lordship of Jesus and His bodily resurrection?  There 
needs to be a balance here and a realistic perspective on the issue, not 
the current trends.
> 
> Fr. John +

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:44 PDT 1996
Article: 2492 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: finally...!
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:45:32 -0700
Organization: home
Lines: 40
Message-ID: <32000C3C.6F36@mail.gte.net>
References: <4s9otl$1pt@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>  <4t6903$hgp@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4t8q77$reb@metroux.metrobbs.com>  <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> <4teeh7$a40@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4tg6d6$449@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <31fcc571.282314@news.pacificnet.net> <31FD19E3.409B@sc9.intel.com>
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Michael Swihart wrote:
> 
> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> >
> > >In <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> >
> > >Classic straw man -- an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > >can easily be struck down.  Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > >--  not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you.  Anti-Semite has a specific
> > >meaning.  it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800's by
> > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings.  Webster: a
> > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> >
> >         "Anti-Semite" Anyone hostile to Jews,  might be a dictionary
> > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
> 
> By similar reasoning, one could also say that the "Big Ten" has ten
> universities and the "Midwest" is in the western part of the USA.
> 
> (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
> 
> As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> invented the misnomer.

If you don't know who "invented" this "misnomer" how do you know 
he/she/it/they were/are "Jew-hater's?"  Get real and drop the persecution 
complex everytime somebody tells some truth in relation to you or your 
selction religion.  Christians have to deal with it all the time.


> M.Swihart
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.	
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:45 PDT 1996
Article: 2497 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: definition of anti-semite
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:41:22 -0700
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Michael Swihart wrote:
> 
> tom moran wrote:
> >
> > anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> >
> > >In <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> >
> > >Classic straw man -- an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > >can easily be struck down.  Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > >--  not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you.  Anti-Semite has a specific
> > >meaning.  it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800's by
> > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings.  Webster: a
> > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> >
> >         "Anti-Semite" Anyone hostile to Jews,  might be a dictionary
> > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
> 
> By similar reasoning, one could also say that the "Big Ten" has ten
> universities and the "Midwest" is in the western part of the USA.
> 
> (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
> 
> As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> invented the misnomer.
> 
> M.Swihart
> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.

Here's Webster's definition of the term.  Problems with it, send them a 
letter!
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:46 PDT 1996
Article: 2505 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.christnet.bible,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.theology,alt.christnet.evangelical,talk.religion.misc
Subject: not the evolutionists!
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 09:05:09 -0700
Organization: home
Lines: 21
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White Tiger wrote:
> 
> Eliyehowah wrote:
> >
> 
> 
> Interesting theory.
> --
> "Peoples minds are not changed through arguments, but by observation."

Not the Evolutionists!  They "believe" that everything came about from 
random chances and zillions of series of "accidental happenings" without 
a stitch of observable evidence.  That's why I marvel at the "faith" of 
an Evolutionist.  And they "argue" for it all the time.  Anything to get 
rid of God, I imagine.
> 
> White Tiger (K. Cornelius)
> tiger-kc@physics.umr.edu

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:47 PDT 1996
Article: 2528 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.apocalypse,alt.atheism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.blasphemy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.drugs.culture,alt.drugs.pot.cultivation,alt.evil,alt.individualism,alt.pagan,alt.psychoactives,alt.punk,alt.rave,alt.religion.asatru,alt.religion.wicca,alt.satanism,alt.zen,fidonet.bible,fidonet.church.state,rec.drugs.cannabis,talk.atheism
Subject: Re: The faith of an evolutionist
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:51:16 -0700
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References: <31b0b0b3.35177642@news.iol.it> <31B49813.67DB@yuba1.yubacoe.k12.ca.us> <31BE710E.3319@ix.netcom.com> <4pmufb$q3b@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4pnj3h$ro6@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4pshcf$1uq@homesick.cs.unlv.edu> <4q5ti1$at6@lilith.uab.es>  <31CA3874.5C75@earthlink.net> <4tlhr4$ieh@news.ycc.yale.edu> <320008C6.166C@mail.gte.net> <4tpbom$k4s@decius.ultra.net>
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Ed LaBonte wrote:
> 
> In article <320008C6.166C@mail.gte.net>, budwrite@mail.gte.net says...
> 
> >
> >To believe that all things evolve by accident takes a greater faith than =
> >ever required of a Bible-believing Christian.  To believe that all things =
> >happen by a series of zillions of chance happenings bringing about order
> >requires a faith far beyond the capacity of a rational thinker.
> 
> I would tend to agree. The problem is that evolution doesn't say that
> animals evolve 'accidently'. The theory is called natural *selection*.
> Selection is the opposite of accident.
> 
> This =
> >argument is a matter of "belief."  If you believe when  you walk into a =
> >room and see a chair there, perfectly suited for you to sit in and use, =
> >yet believe it just "evolved" there rather than somebody constructing =
> >it... Well, to believe so flies in the face of all other observable =
> >facts.  Still, one "believes" what one wants to, but science has nothing =
> >to do with it.  Evolution is a relgion, a "belief" system, and one that I =
> >reject on the basis of all observable facts and experience.  =
> 
> Well, if you could describe a plausible set of principles that would make
> something evolve into a chair then I would be willing to listen. We don't

You would listen, but eventually you would still have to either reject or 
"believe" in that proposal.  "Faith" would have to be exercised because 
there is no observable evidence and you sure aren't going to sit around 
waiting to see it occur!  But in my lifetime I have "seen" and observed" 
the making and placing of furniture and such by an intelligent being and 
"made and placed there" accordingly, not by mere chance!  The 
observations of life would make my "belief" more rational in view of the 
observable evidence.  That is why it takes a much greater faith to 
believe in something coming "accidently" from random chance.
> have any such thing, but we do have a very plausible theory which
> explains how animals can change and evolve over time. 'Faith' in evolution

The evolutionary theory about animals evolving has been almost totally 
destroyed by one of your own evolutionary advocates in a book by a 
biologist who still "believes" in evolution.  It's called "Evolution, a 
theory In Crisis."  by Micheal Denton, published by Adler and Adler ISBN 
# 0-917561-05-8
Try it out, I think you'll find it interesting.

> is more similar to faith in the fact that the earth goes around the sun than it is to religious faith. Religious faith doesn't require plausible 
explanations.

Not true.  While there might be some (0r many) who have what is commonly 
called "blind faith" there is an entire body of evidences (often called 
the area of apologetics) that presents very convincing rational evidences 
for the Christian faith and the existence of God.  This is especially 
true of the Bible.  The Bible is a historical document, one that can be 
examined in the light of known facts and history and using the same type 
of approaches as is commonly used to verify other historical documents.  
The primary problem seem to often be that many people just cannot (or 
will not) approach the Scripture without bringing along a lot of 
"baggage" with them.  This, as you can imagine, makes a reasonable 
approach to this study difficult, if not impossible.  Sure, if you take 
theories or unproven matters you can and will find conflicts... but this 
does not preclude the ability to embark on a rational study of the Bible 
and attempt to determine if its claims to divine inspiration are 
warranted.  

> 
> >"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)
> 
> An unoriginal thought by an unoriginal thinker.
> 
> --
> Ed LaBonte   elabonte@ma.ultranet.com
> http://www.ultranet.com/~elabonte/

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:48 PDT 1996
Article: 2531 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.theology,alt.christnet.evangelical,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: wacked out answer!
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 09:00:43 -0700
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Richard Swordsman wrote:
> 
> God will hold you personally responsible for taking false quotes out of
> context.
> Repent.
> Prov 30:5  Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put
> their trust in him.
> Prov 30:6  Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be
> found a liar.
> 
> I dind't say it, but it is gospel
> 
> JHunter234 (jhunter234@aol.com) 's tidbit:
> : Is there anything that could conceivably happen in the future, be it
> : science advances, or unexpected happenings that could bring about the
> : demise of Christianity or at least bible-inerrant fundamentalism? Or are
> : most Christians that wacked-out delusional that not even God himself could
> : change their minds--- a sincere question----

A sincere person you are not.  "Wacked-out delusional" Christians 
wouldn.t be capable of what you're asking for.  And, since you are 
obviously prejudiced towards Christianity, your mind is made up and no 
answer would suffice.  Why waste your time here?
> 
> : Jeff "it is to laugh" Hunter
> --
>  ****************************************************************
>   ***  www.remnants.com   -   www.dreamsandvisions.com         ****
>    ***  and    www.sundaylaw.com  are three NEW  bible based web sites ***

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:50 PDT 1996
Article: 2538 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.religion.christian
Subject: apologetics pt 1
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 10:19:09 -0700
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What is Faith?  Is Christianity Worthy or our faith?
What is faith?  Many people today would claim it is believing something 
you know isn't true! Many non-christians define faith this way.  This is 
not surprising, still for a Christian this is a tragic view.  Is "blind 
faith" enough?  Or, better yet, is that what God expects of the 
Christian? Today, in our country and many others, the average person with 
a higher education would also probably define faith in the manner above. 
 This idea of "self deception" and skepticism is there with nearly 
everyone.  NOW THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT --- CHRISTIANS HAVE NOT NECESSARILY 
KISSED THEIR BRAINS GOODBYE; AND, THE GOSPEL OF CHRIST CAN BE 
SUCCESSFULLY DEFENDED IN AN INTELLIGENT, FACTUAL MANNER. We live in an 
increasingly so-called sophisticated world.  Like it or not, it is simply 
no longer adequate that someone merely "believe" something.  It is 
essential to know "why" you believe. And here are some more very 
important truths:	(1) Believing in something, no matter how strong 
the belief, does not make it true.	(2) Not believing does not make 
it untrue.	(3) A thing is true or untrue on its own merit, upon what 
the evidence shows, regardless of popular opinion or personal belief. (4) 
 This is also true of Christianity. A clearly reasoned faith; a clearly 
reasoned explanation of the Gospel of Christ is very important AND 
EXHORTED BY SCRIPTURE ITSELF. This is not saying that there is a rational 
substitute for true faith. Nor is it a method by which the objective 
truth of God's Word (the Bible) can be made clear so that a man will heed 
it as the vehicle of the Spirit of God.  It is, however, a method by 
which this objective truth can be conveyed with powerful, factual proofs. 
 As Christians, we know that God alone then convicts the world through 
His message.Do Christians need this, however?  Definitely yes!  
Christians are faced everywhere with a challenge regarding their faith. 
Modern communications have made this world a small place: Therefore, 
Christians are faced everywhere with the challenges of other religious 
systems such as Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and literally hundreds of 
other "systems" of religions. And, we must remember that these other 
religions too claim their religions are valid, truthful, etc. Certainly, 
if Christianity is the "true faith" then it is not unreasonable to expect 
some other proofs other than religious zeal or "experiences.the 
analytical philosopher, Antony Flew, states how meaningless are religious 
assertions to the non-christian when they cannot be tested objectively.  
Flew uses the following story as told by John Wisdom:Once upon a time two 
explorers came upon a clearing in the jungle. In the clearing were 
growing many flowers and many weeds.  One explorers says, 'some gardener 
must tend to this plot.' The other explorer disagrees, saying, 'There is 
no gardener.' So they pitch their tents and begin to watch...no gardener 
is ever seen.
But maybe he is an invisible gardener.' So, they set up barbed wire Fence 
and they electrify it.  They even patrol with bloodhounds to help detect 
any scent they could miss.  But no shrieks ever suggest that some 
intruder has received an electric shock, no movements of the wire ever 
betray an invisible climber and the bloodhounds never bark out.  Yet, 
still the believer is not convinced. 'But still,' he insists, 'there is a 
gardener; invisible and insensible to electric shocks and whom the dogs 
cannot smell; a gardener who comes secretly to look after the garden 
which he loves.' Finally, the skeptic despairs. 'But what remains of your 
original assertion?' the skeptic says. 'Just how does what you call an 
invisible, intangible, eternally elusive gardener differ from an 
imaginary gardener or even from no gardener at all?

The point is well demonstrated!  No matter what your religious belief is, 
this parable is a damning judgement on ALL RELIGIOUS TRUTH-CLAIMS EXCEPT 
that of Christianity.

At first glance, this statement seems very unfair. After all, why should 
Christianity be considered separate from this "damning judgement" 
mentioned above? The answer is, because Christians do not merely have 
some allegation that the garden (the world) is tended by a loving 
gardener (God); but have an 
actual, empirical evidential basis of the entrance of that gardener (God) 
into the human scene in the person of Jesus Christ and this entrance is 
verifiable by way of his resurrection. 

At this point it is important to stop and note that the Bible--in spite 
of its veracity, clearly says that salvation is the sovereign work of 
God, that in spite of all the evidence you cannot "argue" someone into 
God's kingdom. It is very important for every Christian to remember this 
when presenting his "defense" of the Gospel to another.

There is an intellectual factor in the Gospel, but there also is a moral 
consideration.

(1 Corinthians 2:14. NIV) "The man without the Spirit does not accept the 
things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, 
and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned."

>From  the above verse we know that apart from the work of the Holy Spirit, 
no one will believe. However--as one of the instruments of the Holy 
Spirit--a reasonable, intelligent explanation of the 
gospel will be used by the Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to the 
listener.

YOU SHOULD KNOW SOME ANSWERS
There are clear biblical commands to Christians to be intelligent in 
their faith. (1 Peter 3:15. NIV). "But in your hearts set apart Christ as 
Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to 
give a reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and 
respect."

If we are unable to give reasons for our faith, and if you allow some 
questions to defeat you in a conversation time after time, you are being 
disobedient.  By your own ignorance, you are confirming unbelievers 
unbelief.

There are sound, practical reasons why this command was given to 
Christians. It is necessary for the strengthening of our faith as 
Christians. If you know Jesus lives only because (as the hymn says) "he 
lives within my heart," you are going to be in trouble the first time you 
don't feel like he is there! In addition, what do you do when someone 
else--a person who is not a Christian--claims to have "his god" in "his 
heart"?  
You cannot expect to drive yourself indefinitely by sheer willpower to 
believe something of which you are not intellectually convinced.  In 
fact, when someone tells us that the only reason they believe is because 
their parents and religious backgrounds makes them believe, we must be 
able to show them (and ourselves) that we believe what we believe because 
it is objectively true, regardless of who told us!

THERE IS A VAST RATIONAL BODY OF TRUTH
Many non-christians have failed to consider the Gospel seriously because 
no one has ever presented the facts to them correctly.  They associate 
faith with superstition based primarily on emotional considerations; so 
they reject it.

(Matthew 22:37. NIV) "Jesus replied: 'Love the Lord your God with all 
your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.")

Here is a clear biblical indication of a rational basis of the Gospel. 
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself commands that the whole person is involved 
in the conversion--the mind, the emotions and the will.

THE GOSPEL IS ALWAYS EQUATED WITH TRUTH
Read Romans 2:8. Non-Christians are defined by Paul as those who have 
"rejected the truth." Read Romans 1:20. Here Paul makes it clear that 
people have enough knowledge from creation itself to know there is a God. 
Read Romans 1:21. Here Paul goes on to show that the basic reason people 
do not know God is not because He cannot be known or understood, but 
because mankind has rebelled against their Creator.

THE REAL ISSUE IS MORALS
The moral issue always overshadows the intellectual issue in 
Christianity.
It is not that people cannot believe... It is that they will not believe.

(John 7:17. NIV) "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out 
whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own."

Here, Jesus is making it clear that moral commitment leads to a solution 
of the so-called intellectual problem. So-called intellectual problems 
are almost always a smoke screen to cover up moral rebellion. 

IF CHRISTIANITY IS RATIONAL AND TRUE, WHY IS IT MOST EDUCATED PEOPLE 
REJECT IT?
First of all, it is important to understand that there are many 
intelligent, educated people (scholars, etc.) who are Bible-believers. 
However, the answer to the above question is simple: They don't believe 
for the same reason that most uneducated people don't believe--they don't 
want to believe.  It is not a matter of brain power, as already stated, 
there are outstanding Christians in every field of the arts and sciences. 
As with mostly everyone, again it is a matter of the will, not the 
intellect.

TO HAVE DOUBTS OR QUESTIONS?
Even Christians sometimes question their faith, wonder if it's true... 
For some of them "doubt" might seem a scary word and this can lead to an 
unhealthy suppression of seeking the truthful answer.  This is often 
especially true for those who were raised as Christians.  From their 
earliest days they may have accepted 
the facts of Christianity solely on the basis of trust in their
parents, friends, etc.  Unfortunately, as they grow up a reexamination of 
their position takes place and they sometimes become disillusioned merely 
because they fail to seek answers  to their questions and doubts. This is 
entirely wrong! Remember, Christianity is about the One who IS Truth (see 
John 14:6). Careful scrutiny will not harm your faith--it will only 
reinforce it!

SUPPOSE YOU DON'T HAVE AN ANSWER TO A QUESTION OR AN OBJECTION?
Don't panic,-get the answer. Remember, it is highly unlikely that anyone 
has thought up the question that will bring Christianity crashing down. 
Brilliant minds have for centuries thought through the most profound 
questions and have wonderfully answered them. We do not have the answers 
to every question because the Lord hasn't fully revealed His mind to us 
on everything (see Deut. 
29:29). However, we do have more than enough for a solid foundation for 
our faith.

CONCLUSION
(1)  Christianity is based on the evidence.
(2)  Christianity is a reasonable faith, based on the kind of evidences 
one can examine and test for veracity.

The Christian need have no fear of the honest seeker of truth, for the 
evidences supporting the Christian claim are powerful and convincing.  
The real question facing any one examining that evidence is whether or 
not they are an "honest" seeker of truth, willing to let the evidence 
speak for itself; or are they--like many--rejecting the evidence based on 
a preset disposition against God and His revelation, the Bible...   END


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:51 PDT 1996
Article: 2546 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: was Jesus a Bigot?
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 15:12:07 -0700
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Jay McCullough wrote:
> 
> >I think we can solve all your problems
> with the (mis???) usage of the word anti-semite Bud.
> How about we just settle for bigot?
> 
> Webster
> 
> Bigot
> 1. one who is unreasonably and blindly attached
> to a particular creed, church church party or opinion.
> 
> 2. one who is bitterly intolerant of the opinions of others

13  "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut 
off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, 
nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14  <"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour 
widows' houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers; 
therefore you shall receive greater condemnation.>
15  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel 
about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you 
make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16  "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, 
that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is 
obligated.'
17  "You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the 
temple that sanctified the gold?
18  "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever 
swears by the offering upon it, he is obligated.'
19  "You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar 
that sanctifies the offering?
20  "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and 
by everything on it.
21  "And he who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by 
Him who dwells within it.
22  "And he who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by 
Him who sits upon it.
23  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint 
and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the 
law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you 
should have done without neglecting the others.
24  "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the 
outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery 
and self-indulgence.
26  "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the 
dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like 
whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they 
are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
28  "Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you 
are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the 
tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30  and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would 
not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31  "Consequently you bear witness against yourselves, that you are sons 
of those who murdered the prophets.
32  "Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33  "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence 
of hell?
34  "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and 
scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you 
will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35  that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on 
earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the 
son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36  "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this 
generation.

sound familiar?  Sound "bigotted?  Not very tolerant, is it?

> 
> 3 (pay special attention here Bud) one who is odiously hostile
> to people of a different race religion etc.

You pay attention, Jay.

13  "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut 
off the kingdom of heaven from men; for you do not enter in yourselves, 
nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.
14  <"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you devour 
widows' houses, even while for a pretense you make long prayers; 
therefore you shall receive greater condemnation.>
15  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you travel 
about on sea and land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you 
make him twice as much a son of hell as yourselves.
16  "Woe to you, blind guides, who say, 'Whoever swears by the temple, 
that is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is 
obligated.'
17  "You fools and blind men; which is more important, the gold, or the 
temple that sanctified the gold?
18  "And, 'Whoever swears by the altar, that is nothing, but whoever 
swears by the offering upon it, he is obligated.'
19  "You blind men, which is more important, the offering or the altar 
that sanctifies the offering?
20  "Therefore he who swears by the altar, swears both by the altar and 
by everything on it.
21  "And he who swears by the temple, swears both by the temple and by 
Him who dwells within it.
22  "And he who swears by heaven, swears both by the throne of God and by 
Him who sits upon it.
23  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint 
and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the 
law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you 
should have done without neglecting the others.
24  "You blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
25  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the 
outside of the cup and of the dish, but inside they are full of robbery 
and self-indulgence.
26  "You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the 
dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.
27  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like 
whitewashed tombs which on the outside appear beautiful, but inside they 
are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness.
28  "Even so you too outwardly appear righteous to men, but inwardly you 
are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.
29  "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you build the 
tombs of the prophets and adorn the monuments of the righteous,
30  and say, 'If we had been living in the days of our fathers, we would 
not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'
31  "Consequently you bear witness against yourselves, that you are sons 
of those who murdered the prophets.
32  "Fill up then the measure of the guilt of your fathers.
33  "You serpents, you brood of vipers, how shall you escape the sentence 
of hell?
34  "Therefore, behold, I am sending you prophets and wise men and 
scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you 
will scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city,
35  that upon you may fall the guilt of all the righteous blood shed on 
earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the 
son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
36  "Truly I say to you, all these things shall come upon this 
generation.

Sound familiar again?  Sounds to me like the Lord wasn't very "tolerant"
 
> usage- Bud is a bigot.
> 
> Bigot Bud carries water for the bigoted Rev.
> 
> See how easy that was?
> 
> In Christ
> Jay

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:52 PDT 1996
Article: 2575 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
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Subject: A theory in crisis
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THE PROBLEM WITH EVOLUTION
"The only competing explanation for the order we all see in the 
biological world is the notion of Special Creation." (Niles Eldredge, 
Ph.D., paleontologist and Evolutionist, American Museum of Natural 
History).

"We must ask first whether the theory of evolution by natural selection 
is scientific or pseudoscientific (metaphysical)... Taking the first part 
of the theory, that evolution has occurred, it says that the history of 
life is a single process of species-splitting and progression.  This 
process must be unique and unrepeatable, like the history of England.  
This part of the theory is therefore a historical theory, about unique 
events, and unique events are, by definition, NOT PART OF SCIENCE, for 
they are unrepeatable and so not subject to test.  (Evolutionist Dr. 
Colin Patterson, "Evolution" [London; British Museum of Natural History, 
1978, pp. 145-146) Emphasis added.

"So even the fossil evidence on which theories depend is open to 
subjective interpretation." (Robert Martin, paleontologist and 
Evolutionist, "Man is Not An Onion", New Scientist, Vol. 75, no. 1063 pp. 
283-285)

"As a result of all this, the main efforts of investigators have been in 
papering over holes in the big bang theory, to build up an idea that has 
become ever more complex and cumbersome...I HAVE LITTLE HESITATION IN 
SAYING THAT A SICKLY PALL NOW HANGS OVER THE BIG BANG THEORY.  When a 
pattern of facts become set against a theory, experience shows that the 
theory rarely recovers."  (Evolutionist Sir Fred Hoyle, famous British 
astronomer and cosmologist.  "The Bib Ban Theory Under Attack" Science 
Digest, Vol. 92 (May 1984), p. 84 (emphasis added)).

"The time asymmetry of the universe is expressed by the second law of 
thermodynamics, that entropy increases with time as order is transformed 
into disorder.  The mystery is not that an ordered state should become 
disordered but that the early universe was in a highly ordered state 
(p.39,d.Page)
"There is no mechanism know as yet that would allow the universe to begin 
in an arbitrary state and then evolve to its present highly-oriented 
state" (p. 40 D. Page, Physicist at Pennsylvania State University, 
Evolutionist.  "Inflation Does not Explain Time Asymmetry," Nature, Vol. 
304 (July 7, 1983).

"I think however that we must go further than this and admit that the 
only accepted explanation is CREATION.  I know that this is an anathema 
to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory 
that we do not like IF THE EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTS IT."  
(Evolutionist and professor H.J. Lipson F.R.S "A Physicist looks at 
Evolution," Physics Bulletin vol. 31 (1980), p. 138 emphasis added.

"The wonder is... that there should be a universe at all, with the laws 
and plan and apparent purpose." (Evolutionist Wilder Penfield, O.M. 
Litt.B., M.D., F.R.S. "The Mystery of the Mind, Princeton, New Jersey, 
Princeton University Press, 1975, p. 73)

"Living organism, however, differ from inanimate matter by the degree of 
complexity of their systems and by the POSSESSION OF A GENETIC PROGRAM... 
The genetic instructions packaged in an embryo direct the formation of an 
adult, whether it be a tree, a fish, or a human.  THE PROCESS IS 
GOAL-DIRECTED, BUT FROM THE INSTRUCTION IN THE GENETIC PROGRAM, NOT FROM 
THE OUTSIDE.  NOTHING LIKE IT EXISTS IN THE INANIMATE WORLD."  (Ernst 
Mayr, Ph.D., Evolutionist, Ernst Mayr in Roger Lewin, "Biology Is Not 
Postage Stamp Collecting," Science, Vol. 216, # 4547(May 14, 1982), pp. 
718-720, emphasis added.

'The Carbon-14 contents of the shells of snails of melanoides 
tuberculatus LIVING TODAY in the artesian springs in southern Nevada 
indicate an apparent age of 27,000 years. (Alan C. Riggs, Science, Vol. 
224, April 6, 1984, pp. 58-61.  Emphasis added.

Dried seal carcasses less than 30 years old "dated" as old as 6,400 
years, and a freshly killed seal "dated" at 1300 years old. (W. Dort, 
Jr., "mummified seals of southern Victoria Land" Antarctic Journal of the 
United States, Vol. 6 (1971), p. 210 + (also, "when the blood of a seal 
freshly killed a McMurdo Sound in the Antarctic was tested by Carbon-14, 
it showed the seal had died 1,300 years ago").

"It should be noted that dates (absolute dates) obtained by different 
methods (radioactive dating methods) COMMONLY SHOW SOME DISCREPANCIES... 
As the Committed on the Measurement of Geological Time said in 1950, 
"These figures (i.e. dates) are AS RAILWAY TIMETABLES SAY, SUBJECT TO 
CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE.  (D.G.A. Whitten and J.R.V. Brooks, "The Penguin 
Dictionary of Geology, Middlesex, England, Penguin Books, 1972, emphasis 
added.

Volcanic eruption of 1800 on Hualalai Island, Hawaii, produced rocks 
which falsely "dated" 160 million to 3 billion years.  (John G. 
Funkhauser and John J Naughton, "Radiogenic Helium and Argon in 
Ultramatic Inclusions From Hawaii" Journal of Geophysical Research, vol. 
73, # 14, July 16, 1968, pp. 4601-4607.

"...How life originated, I am afraid that SINCE PASTEUR, THIS QUESTION IS 
NOT WITHIN THE SCIENTIFIC DOMAIN.  (Peter Mora, "Urge and Molecular 
Biology," Nature, Vol. 199, #4890 July 20, 1963, P 212 emphasis added.

"No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of 
Evolution" (Pierre-Paul Grosse, Evolutionist)

"Considering the way the PREBIOTIC SOUP is referred to in so many 
discussions of the origin of life as an already established reality, it 
comes as something of a shock to realize that THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO 
POSITIVE EVIDENCE FOR ITS EXISTENCE."  (Michael Denton, "Evolution: A 
Theory In Crisis", Bethesda, Maryland: Adler and Adler Publishers, 1985) 
p. 261, emphasis added.

"The probability...of the convergent evolution of TWO proteins with 
approximately the SAME structure and function is TOO LOW TO BE PLAUSIBLE, 
EVEN WITH ALL POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE PRESENT WHICH SEEM TO HEIGHTEN 
THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCH CONVERGENCE.  If this is so, then the plausibility 
of a random evolution to two or more different but functionally related 
proteins seems hardly greater."  (Evolutionist Paul Erbich, "On the 
Probability of the Emergence of a Protein with a Particular Function" 
Acta Biotheoretic, Vol. 34 (1985), pp. 53-80 quote is from the abstract 
with emphasis added.

"The set of genetic instructions for humans is roughly THREE BILLION 
LETTERS LONG."  (Genetics experts Radman and Wagner, "The High Fidelity 
of DNA Duplication" Scientific American, Vol. 259, #2 (august 1988) pp. 
40-46 emphasis added.

"Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random 
is so utterly minuscule as to make it absurd, it becomes sensible to 
think that the favorable properties of physics, on which life depends, 
are in every respect deliberate...It is, therefore, almost inevitable 
that our own measure of intelligence must reflect higher intelligence -- 
even to the limit of God."  (Evolutionist Fred Hoyle and N. Chandra 
Wickramasinghe, "Evolution from Space" London: J.M. Dent and Company, 
1981, pp. 141,144)

"The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter of one to 
the number of 40,000 noughts after it... IT IS BIG ENOUGH TO BURY DARWIN 
AND THE WHOLE THEORY OF EVOLUTION.  There was no primeval soup, neither 
on this planet nor on any other, and if the beginnings of life were not 
random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful 
intelligence."  ("Hoyle On Evolution", Nature Vol. 294, #5837 November 
12, 1981, p. 148 emphasis added.

'...there are very few empirical facts of direct relevance and perhaps no 
facts relating to the actual transition from organic material to material 
that can even remotely be described as living... The time scale (the 
supposed 5-billion year old age of Earth) IS GROSSLY INADEQUATE AND THE 
INFORMATION CONTENT THAT IS NEEDED TO PRODUCE LIFE IS SO VAST THAT IT IS 
IMPOSSIBLE TO ACTUALLY ARRIVE AT THAT FINAL STEP ON EARTH..."  
(Evolutionist N. Chandra Wickramasinghe in Vol. 325 of Philosophical 
Transcripts of the Royal Society of London (1988) pp./ 611-618 (quote 
>from  page 611) emphasis added.

"No one has ever produced a species by mechanisms of natural selection.  
No one has ever gotten near it.  (Dr. Colin Patterson, Evolutionist)

"Micromutations do occur, but the theory that these alone can account for 
evolutionary change is EITHER FALSIFIED, or else it is an unfalsifiable, 
hence METAPHYSICAL theory.  If suppose that nobody will deny that it is a 
great misfortune if an entire branch of science becomes ADDICTED TO A 
FALSE THEORY.  But this what has happened in biology... I believe that 
ONE DAY THE DARWINIAN  MYTH WILL BE RANKED THE GREATEST DECEIT IN THE 
HISTORY OF SCIENCE.  When this happens many people will pose the 
question: "How did this ever happen?"  )S. Lovtrup, Evolutionist, 
"Darwinism; The refutation of a Myth" London: Droom Helm. 1987, p 422 
emphasis added.

"Radiometric dating is an exceedingly crude instrument with which to 
measure our strata and I can think of no occasion where it has been put 
to an immediate practical use.  Apart from very 'modern examples', which 
are really archaeology..."  (Derek Ager, Geologist and Evolutionist)

There is much much more but why go on...?

18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness 
and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19  because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God 
made it evident to them.
20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His 
eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood 
through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:53 PDT 1996
Article: 2581 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.apocalypse,alt.atheism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.blasphemy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.drugs.culture,alt.drugs.pot.cultivation,alt.evil,alt.individualism,alt.pagan,alt.psychoactives,alt.punk,alt.rave,alt.religion.asatru,alt.religion.wicca,alt.satanism,alt.zen,fidonet.bible,fidonet.church.state,rec.drugs.cannabis,talk.atheism
Subject: Re: The faith of an evolutionist
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 14:49:05 -0700
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Aaron Bergman wrote:
> 
> bud (budwrite@mail.gte.net) wrote:
> 
> Don't double space your posts. It's incredibly annoying.
> 
> : To believe that all things evolve by accident takes a greater faith than =
> : ever required of a Bible-believing Christian.  To believe that all things =
> 
> Funny. I've seen evidence of it happening.
> 
> : happen by a series of zillions of chance happenings bringing about order =
> : requires a faith far beyond the capacity of a rational thinker.  This =
> 
> Here's a fun experiment. Watch ice freeze. Note that ice is a
> crystal (of sorts). Note that water is very disordered. Ask
> yourself how the (relative) order of ice comes out of the
> disorder of water.
> 
> : argument is a matter of "belief."  If you believe when  you walk into a =
> : room and see a chair there, perfectly suited for you to sit in and use, =
> : yet believe it just "evolved" there rather than somebody constructing =
> : it...
> 
> Look at diamonds. They formed naturally and are incredibly
> ordered. Look at rivers. They are perfectly suited for
> transportation, yet they formed naturally.
> 
> : Well, to believe so flies in the face of all other observable =
> : facts.
> 
> Like what.
> 
> :  Still, one "believes" what one wants to, but science has nothing =
> : to do with it.  Evolution is a relgion, a "belief" system, and one that I =
> : reject on the basis of all observable facts and experience.  =
> 
> Bullshit. First, microevolution is a _fact_. If you don't believe
> me, go get a form of drug resistant TB. Second of all,
> transitional forms exist. Thirdly, the genetic evidence for
> evolution is overwhelming. Fourthly, you can trace the development
> of many body parts throughout history. Fifthly, the human body is
> not perfectly designed. Do you want me to go on?
> 
> Care to tell me your evidence for creationism? And order doesn't
> come out of disorder is not evidence as it is false.
> 
> Aaron
> --
> Aaron Bergman -- abergman@minerva.cis.yale.edu
> 
> The quote left intentionally blank.

fact is that everything you express here is an exercise of your "faith" 
in the explanation of these things.  Suggest you read "Evolution, A 
Theory in Crisis" by Robert Denton (published by Adler & Adler ISBN 
0-917561-05-8), Here's a sample of his conclusions:  "The intuitive 
feeling that pure chance could never have achieved the degree of 
complexity and ingenuity so ubiquitous in nature hasw been a contining 
source of scepticism ever since the publication of the 'Origin of the 
Species;' and throught the past century there has always existed a 
significant minority of first-rate biologists who have never been able to 
bring themselves to accept the validity of Darwinian claims... Perhaps in 
no other areas of modern bilooby is the challenge posed by the extreme 
complexity and ingenuity of bilogical adaptations more apparent than in 
the fascinating new molecuar world of the cell... To grasp the reality of 
life as it has been revealed by molecular biology, we must magnifiy a 
cell a thousand million times until it is twenty kilometers in diameter 
and resembles a giant ariship large enough to covfer a great city like 
London or New York.  What we would then see would be an object of 
unparalleled complexity and adaptive design.  On the surface of the cell 
we would see millions of openings. like the port holes of a vast space 
ship, opening and closing to allow a continual steam of materials to flow 
in and out.  If we were to enter one of these openingswe sould find 
ourselves in a world of supreme technology and bewildering complexity... 
Is it really credible that random processes could have constructed a 
relaity, the smallest element of which--a functional protein or gene--is 
complex beyondour own creative capacities, a reality which is the very 
antithesis of chance, which excels in every sense anything produced by 
the intelligence of man?"

You simply have to have "faith" to be an Evolutionist.

Denton is a biologist and a still a "believer" in Evolution who has 
nonetheless.  He's looking for another platform... but he has destroyed 
the theory of the Evolution of life forms.  Microevolution has been 
observed, but not Macroevolution, which is the "belief" in the "theory" 
that must be exercised by Evolutionist.  There are no transitional life 
forms, etc. etc.  Evolution, like it or not, is a theory that attempts to 
get away from a Creator and such.  But this is your privilege -- to 
"believe" in it.  And one other thing... Try to avoid using profanity 
when discussing the issue.  Your frustration with the weakness of your 
belief system should not make you respond this way.

You want me to go on?
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:54 PDT 1996
Article: 2586 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: herre it is again...?
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 20:51:14 -0700
Organization: home
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bud wrote:
> 
> Michael Swihart wrote:
> >
> > tom moran wrote:
> > >
> > > anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> > >
> > > >In <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> > >
> > > >Classic straw man -- an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> > > >can easily be struck down.  Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> > > >--  not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you.  Anti-Semite has a specific
> > > >meaning.  it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800's by
> > > >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings.  Webster: a
> > > >person who is hostile to Jews.
> > >
> > >         "Anti-Semite" Anyone hostile to Jews,  might be a dictionary
> > > definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> > > is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
> >
> > By similar reasoning, one could also say that the "Big Ten" has ten
> > universities and the "Midwest" is in the western part of the USA.
> >
> > (For those who are unaware, the Big Ten has 11 universities,
> > and the Midwest is in the eastern half the USA.)
> >
> > As it turns out, the dictionary is merely recording how people actually
> > use the word. If the word is a poor fit, blame the Jew-hater that
> > invented the misnomer.
> >
> > M.Swihart
> > ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> > Note: I do not speak for my company, nor they for me.
> 
> Here's Webster's definition of the term.  Problems with it, send them a
> letter!
> --
> "The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)

an-ti-Sem-ite (an tee sem'iet, an tie-; esp. Brit. -see'miet)  
     n. 
                  1.  a person who discriminates against or is 
                       prejudiced or hostile toward Jews.
             [1880-85]
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:55 PDT 1996
Article: 2596 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.apocalypse,alt.atheism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.blasphemy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.pagan,alt.religion.asatru,alt.religion.wicca,alt.satanism,alt.zen,fidonet.bible,fidonet.church.state,talk.atheism
Subject: and this isn't faith?!
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 18:42:22 -0700
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William Edward Woody wrote:
> 
> oneal@astro.psu.edu (Doug O'Neal) wrote:
> > In article <320008C6.166C@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> > >  ... If you believe when  you walk into a
> > >  room and see a chair there, perfectly suited for you to sit in and use,
> > >  yet believe it just "evolved" there rather than somebody constructing
> > >  it...
> >
> >  This is a tremendously flawed analogy.  Chairs neither reproduce themselves
> >  nor struggle with other chairs for the resources necessary to survive.  Nor
> >  have they been under pressure to adapt to their environments for hundreds
> >  of millions of years.

and this isn't "faith" you're expressing?  If not, I'd like to see the 
polaroid snapshots you have of these events.  Maybe the eyewitnesses?  
Somebody you know who is still alive after those "millions of years"  
you're expressing "faith" but you just don't want to call  it that.

> 
> Obviously someone who never saw my apartment when I was living alone.
> 
> *grin*

Okay -- cute, but...

Hope you read my posting "theory in crisis" and see how many other 
Evolutionists don't have a much "faith" as others...
Regards -- Bud

> 
>                                                 - Bill
> 
> --
> William Edward Woody  |  e-mail: woody@alumni.cco.caltech.edu
> In Phase Consulting   |  WWW:    http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~woody
> 1545 Ard Eevin Ave    |  Fax:    (818) 502-1467
> Glendale, CA 91202    |  ICBM:   N:34.15' W:118.25'

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:56 PDT 1996
Article: 2630 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: not in Christ, and Jay's the bigot
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 14:59:44 -0700
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Jay McCullough wrote:
> 
> >I think we can solve all your problems
> with the (mis???) usage of the word anti-semite Bud.
> How about we just settle for bigot?
> 
> Webster definition of bigot
> 
> Bigot
> 1. one who is unreasonably and blindly attached
> to a particular creed, church church party or opinion.
> 
> 2. one who is bitterly intolerant of the opinions of others
> 
> 3 (pay special attention here Bud) one who is odiously hostile
> to people of a different race religion etc.
> 
> usage- Bud is a bigot.

definition of bigot from Webster's:  (which one are you using, Jay?)
big-ot (big'uht)  n. 
                  1.  a person who is extremely intolerant of 
                       another's creed, belief, or opinion.
             [1590-1600; < MF (OF: derogatory name applied by 
             the French to the Normans), perh. < OE bi God by 
             God]

Jay... that sound familar?  Anyone reading your posting knows who's the 
bigot now, don't we? 
> 
> Bigot Bud carries water for the bigoted Rev.
> 
> See how easy that was?

Yes, I imagine you find it much harder to address the issues 
and the information.
> 
> In Christ
> Jay

not in Christ, Jay. just incensed with nonsense.  Try to relax and 
address the issues and avoid the adhomenims.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:57 PDT 1996
Article: 2646 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: thank you, Royce
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 09:39:41 -0700
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Royce Buehler wrote:
> 
> In article <3200102B.C91@mail.gte.net>, bud  writes:
> > Fr. John W. Morris wrote:
> > >
> > > Royce Buehler  wrote in article
> > > <4taq1m$nn6@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>...
> > > > Jews control the courts. Jews instantly brainwash everyone who steps
> > > > into a jury box with their little secret brainwashing rays.
>         
> > > >
> > > Fr. John W. Morris responds:
> > >
> > > If you really believe the above, you are seriously in need of professional
> > > help.
> >
> > Although I can be positive, I think you've got the wrong guy here.  From
> > what I know of Royce Buehler he would not have written what you say he
> > did.  Check it out again.
> 
> Father Morris got the attribution right, but he didn't read the post
> very carefully. It was me who wrote it, but it was a satirical description
> of the views expressed by Paul Goddard, and the context made that
> extremely clear. In no way did it represent my own views.
> 
> After all, if the Jews ever *did* decide to take over the world, first
> they'd have to come to agreement on the action plan. When they've shaved
> the number of parties in the Knesset down to five or six, those inclined
> to worry over such nonsense will have my permission to worry. :-)
> 
> I do thank you, Bud, for looking out for other poster's reputations.
> Although this was a different problem, mistaken attributions can
> cause unnecessary friction.
> --
> Royce Buehler   buehler@space.mit.edu   (617)-253-9766
>   "Comme un fou se croit Dieu, nous nous croyons mortels"
>         -- Pierre Delalande

Ah hah!  I sort of thought so.  Thanks for replying.  Everyone knows 
that only one in every 4 Jews can hypnotize the people in the pews... 
:) !!... As for the friction and such, don't I know it!  I know I post 
controversial views, but they are either questions I think deserve 
consideration, or matters I have convictions about (which you know 
about).  If it offends, well... In no case, however, do I condone some of 
the things I'm accused of condoning (violence, etc.).  I just look for 
some balance in some matters which apparently don't have one, and if that 
offends some, well...  You see, Royce, I think SOME of the revisionists 
have raised SOME good questions.  I don't like when people resort to 
adhomenims or even to trying to have the opposition thrown in jail.  
These things are not to be settled in that manner. They are (or should) 
be settled in the same way Christian apologists must do -- discussion of 
the evidence and proper debate and opportunity for both to have their say 
without fear of oppression.  

"There are three sides to every divorce... His, Hers, and the Truth!"  
(sounds like Henny Youngman, but who knows...?)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:58 PDT 1996
Article: 2648 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible
Subject: Evolution in trouble
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 09:50:14 -0700
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THE PROBLEM WITH EVOLUTION
"The only competing explanation for the order we all see in the 
biological world is the notion of Special Creation." (Niles Eldredge, 
Ph.D., paleontologist and Evolutionist, American Museum of Natural 
History).

"We must ask first whether the theory of evolution by natural selection 
is scientific or pseudoscientific (metaphysical)... Taking the first part 
of the theory, that evolution has occurred, it says that the history of 
life is a single process of species-splitting and progression.  This 
process must be unique and unrepeatable, like the history of England.  
This part of the theory is therefore a historical theory, about unique 
events, and unique events are, by definition, NOT PART OF SCIENCE, for 
they are unrepeatable and so not subject to test.  (Evolutionist Dr. 
Colin Patterson, "Evolution" [London; British Museum of Natural History, 
1978, pp. 145-146) Emphasis added.

"So even the fossil evidence on which theories depend is open to 
subjective interpretation." (Robert Martin, paleontologist and 
Evolutionist, "Man is Not An Onion", New Scientist, Vol. 75, no. 1063 pp. 
283-285)

"As a result of all this, the main efforts of investigators have been in 
papering over holes in the big bang theory, to build up an idea that has 
become ever more complex and cumbersome...I HAVE LITTLE HESITATION IN 
SAYING THAT A SICKLY PALL NOW HANGS OVER THE BIG BANG THEORY.  When a 
pattern of facts become set against a theory, experience shows that the 
theory rarely recovers."  (Evolutionist Sir Fred Hoyle, famous British 
astronomer and cosmologist.  "The Bib Ban Theory Under Attack" Science 
Digest, Vol. 92 (May 1984), p. 84 (emphasis added)).

"The time asymmetry of the universe is expressed by the second law of 
thermodynamics, that entropy increases with time as order is transformed 
into disorder.  The mystery is not that an ordered state should become 
disordered but that the early universe was in a highly ordered state 
(p.39,d.Page)
"There is no mechanism know as yet that would allow the universe to begin 
in an arbitrary state and then evolve to its present highly-oriented 
state" (p. 40 D. Page, Physicist at Pennsylvania State University, 
Evolutionist.  "Inflation Does not Explain Time Asymmetry," Nature, Vol. 
304 (July 7, 1983).

"I think however that we must go further than this and admit that the 
only accepted explanation is CREATION.  I know that this is an anathema 
to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory 
that we do not like IF THE EXPERIMENTAL EVIDENCE SUPPORTS IT."  
(Evolutionist and professor H.J. Lipson F.R.S "A Physicist looks at 
Evolution," Physics Bulletin vol. 31 (1980), p. 138 emphasis added.

"The wonder is... that there should be a universe at all, with the laws 
and plan and apparent purpose." (Evolutionist Wilder Penfield, O.M. 
Litt.B., M.D., F.R.S. "The Mystery of the Mind, Princeton, New Jersey, 
Princeton University Press, 1975, p. 73)

"Living organism, however, differ from inanimate matter by the degree of 
complexity of their systems and by the POSSESSION OF A GENETIC PROGRAM... 
The genetic instructions packaged in an embryo direct the formation of an 
adult, whether it be a tree, a fish, or a human.  THE PROCESS IS 
GOAL-DIRECTED, BUT FROM THE INSTRUCTION IN THE GENETIC PROGRAM, NOT FROM 
THE OUTSIDE.  NOTHING LIKE IT EXISTS IN THE INANIMATE WORLD."  (Ernst 
Mayr, Ph.D., Evolutionist, Ernst Mayr in Roger Lewin, "Biology Is Not 
Postage Stamp Collecting," Science, Vol. 216, # 4547(May 14, 1982), pp. 
718-720, emphasis added.

'The Carbon-14 contents of the shells of snails of melanoides 
tuberculatus LIVING TODAY in the artesian springs in southern Nevada 
indicate an apparent age of 27,000 years. (Alan C. Riggs, Science, Vol. 
224, April 6, 1984, pp. 58-61.  Emphasis added.

Dried seal carcasses less than 30 years old "dated" as old as 6,400 
years, and a freshly killed seal "dated" at 1300 years old. (W. Dort, 
Jr., "mummified seals of southern Victoria Land" Antarctic Journal of the 
United States, Vol. 6 (1971), p. 210 + (also, "when the blood of a seal 
freshly killed a McMurdo Sound in the Antarctic was tested by Carbon-14, 
it showed the seal had died 1,300 years ago").

"It should be noted that dates (absolute dates) obtained by different 
methods (radioactive dating methods) COMMONLY SHOW SOME DISCREPANCIES... 
As the Committed on the Measurement of Geological Time said in 1950, 
"These figures (i.e. dates) are AS RAILWAY TIMETABLES SAY, SUBJECT TO 
CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE.  (D.G.A. Whitten and J.R.V. Brooks, "The Penguin 
Dictionary of Geology, Middlesex, England, Penguin Books, 1972, emphasis 
added.

Volcanic eruption of 1800 on Hualalai Island, Hawaii, produced rocks 
which falsely "dated" 160 million to 3 billion years.  (John G. 
Funkhauser and John J Naughton, "Radiogenic Helium and Argon in 
Ultramatic Inclusions From Hawaii" Journal of Geophysical Research, vol. 
73, # 14, July 16, 1968, pp. 4601-4607.

"...How life originated, I am afraid that SINCE PASTEUR, THIS QUESTION IS 
NOT WITHIN THE SCIENTIFIC DOMAIN.  (Peter Mora, "Urge and Molecular 
Biology," Nature, Vol. 199, #4890 July 20, 1963, P 212 emphasis added.

"No matter how numerous they may be, mutations do not produce any kind of 
Evolution" (Pierre-Paul Grosse, Evolutionist)

"Considering the way the PREBIOTIC SOUP is referred to in so many 
discussions of the origin of life as an already established reality, it 
comes as something of a shock to realize that THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO 
POSITIVE EVIDENCE FOR ITS EXISTENCE."  (Michael Denton, "Evolution: A 
Theory In Crisis", Bethesda, Maryland: Adler and Adler Publishers, 1985) 
p. 261, emphasis added.

"The probability...of the convergent evolution of TWO proteins with 
approximately the SAME structure and function is TOO LOW TO BE PLAUSIBLE, 
EVEN WITH ALL POSSIBLE CIRCUMSTANCES ARE PRESENT WHICH SEEM TO HEIGHTEN 
THE LIKELIHOOD OF SUCH CONVERGENCE.  If this is so, then the plausibility 
of a random evolution to two or more different but functionally related 
proteins seems hardly greater."  (Evolutionist Paul Erbich, "On the 
Probability of the Emergence of a Protein with a Particular Function" 
Acta Biotheoretic, Vol. 34 (1985), pp. 53-80 quote is from the abstract 
with emphasis added.

"The set of genetic instructions for humans is roughly THREE BILLION 
LETTERS LONG."  (Genetics experts Radman and Wagner, "The High Fidelity 
of DNA Duplication" Scientific American, Vol. 259, #2 (august 1988) pp. 
40-46 emphasis added.

"Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random 
is so utterly minuscule as to make it absurd, it becomes sensible to 
think that the favorable properties of physics, on which life depends, 
are in every respect deliberate...It is, therefore, almost inevitable 
that our own measure of intelligence must reflect higher intelligence -- 
even to the limit of God."  (Evolutionist Fred Hoyle and N. Chandra 
Wickramasinghe, "Evolution from Space" London: J.M. Dent and Company, 
1981, pp. 141,144)

"The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter of one to 
the number of 40,000 noughts after it... IT IS BIG ENOUGH TO BURY DARWIN 
AND THE WHOLE THEORY OF EVOLUTION.  There was no primeval soup, neither 
on this planet nor on any other, and if the beginnings of life were not 
random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful 
intelligence."  ("Hoyle On Evolution", Nature Vol. 294, #5837 November 
12, 1981, p. 148 emphasis added.

'...there are very few empirical facts of direct relevance and perhaps no 
facts relating to the actual transition from organic material to material 
that can even remotely be described as living... The time scale (the 
supposed 5-billion year old age of Earth) IS GROSSLY INADEQUATE AND THE 
INFORMATION CONTENT THAT IS NEEDED TO PRODUCE LIFE IS SO VAST THAT IT IS 
IMPOSSIBLE TO ACTUALLY ARRIVE AT THAT FINAL STEP ON EARTH..."  
(Evolutionist N. Chandra Wickramasinghe in Vol. 325 of Philosophical 
Transcripts of the Royal Society of London (1988) pp./ 611-618 (quote 
>from  page 611) emphasis added.

"No one has ever produced a species by mechanisms of natural selection.  
No one has ever gotten near it.  (Dr. Colin Patterson, Evolutionist)

"Micromutations do occur, but the theory that these alone can account for 
evolutionary change is EITHER FALSIFIED, or else it is an unfalsifiable, 
hence METAPHYSICAL theory.  If suppose that nobody will deny that it is a 
great misfortune if an entire branch of science becomes ADDICTED TO A 
FALSE THEORY.  But this what has happened in biology... I believe that 
ONE DAY THE DARWINIAN  MYTH WILL BE RANKED THE GREATEST DECEIT IN THE 
HISTORY OF SCIENCE.  When this happens many people will pose the 
question: "How did this ever happen?"  )S. Lovtrup, Evolutionist, 
"Darwinism; The refutation of a Myth" London: Droom Helm. 1987, p 422 
emphasis added.

"Radiometric dating is an exceedingly crude instrument with which to 
measure our strata and I can think of no occasion where it has been put 
to an immediate practical use.  Apart from very 'modern examples', which 
are really archaeology..."  (Derek Ager, Geologist and Evolutionist)

There is much much more but why go on...?

18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness 
and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,
19  because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God 
made it evident to them.
20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His 
eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood 
through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:22:59 PDT 1996
Article: 2657 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: some quotes that need consideration...
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 11:08:29 -0700
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tom moran wrote:
> 
> anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
> 
> >In <31FA8259.1F50@mail.gte.net> bud  writes:
> >>
> >>The following is an article that appeared in "The Christian
> >>News".
> 
> >Classic straw man -- an attempt to set up a flawed argument that
> >can easily be struck down.  Look up anti-Semite in the dictionary
> >--  not ANTI + SEMITE, mind you.  Anti-Semite has a specific
> >meaning.  it was, in fact coined in England in the late 1800's by
> >a self-professed Jew-hater to describe his feelings.  Webster: a
> >person who is hostile to Jews.
> 
>         "Anti-Semite" Anyone hostile to Jews,  might be a dictionary
> definition, but going by other definitions of Semite, we could say it
> is also one who is hostile to Arabs.
>         Annie if you can't accept this, maybe you can give us the term
> for hostility to Arabs. "Semite" is a genetic/racial designation, like
> Oriental, Caucasian, Amerind - etc. One dictionary definition states
> for "Semite" - a person descended from Shem.
> >
> >>         TALMUDIC JEWS KHAZARS NOT SEMITES
> >>The term anti-Semite when applied to opposition to Jews is also
> >>a misnomer because the vast majority of Talmudic Jews today are
> >>not Semites.  There are many Khazar (Chazar or Khozer) Jews,
> >>Black Jews, Chinese Jews, East Indian Jews, Mexican, Japanese
> >>Jews, etc.  According to some authorities the Khazar Jews alone
> >>make up over 90% of the Jewish population of the world.  Only
> >>the Sephardic Jews are considered to be the descendants of Shem.
> >>According to Benjamin Freedman, a converted Jew, the Khazar Jews
> >>are not Semites.  Mr. Freedman in his book, FACTS ARE FACTS on
> >>p. 42 quotes the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA in part as follows:
> >
> >See above.  Pointless argument.  Judaism is a religion, not a
> >race.
> 
>         In addition to the above evidence that Semite is a racial
> designation, we have to consider why Jews while charging anti-Semitism
> will also use the word "racist".
>         There are also terms like 'He looks Jewish, or 'He is half
> Jewish. There are also certain genetic diseases that Jews can have.
>         There is also things like the Jew is a Jew if the mother was a
> Jew.
>         This is just a small portion of the evidence that could be put
> forth to show that Judaism is a racial movement.
> 
> >
> >Also, Ben Freedman may have been born of parents who came from
> >parents who believed in Judaism, he himself and his parents were
> >secular Jews to say the least.  Who was Ben Freedman?
> 
>         "Secular" Jews is a term that has been used with great frequency
> in recent years. Look up "Jew" - "Jewish" in the dictionary, Annie.
> How can you be Jewish and "secular" at the same time?
> 
> >
> >Benjamin Harrison Freedman was the originator of the
> >"Khazar Canard"--a theory that today's Jews are not the
> >descendants of the Jews mentioned in the Bible, but rather
> >descendants of the Khazars, an Asiatic people who occupied
> >Southern Russia during the seventh century, who had
> >converted to Judaism. Ironically, he was born a Jew in New
> >York in 1890, but openly revealed himself to be a fascist
> >and an "honorary Aryan".  When WWII broke out he declared
> >himself a supporter of Hitler and predicted Hitler would
> >win the war.
> >
> >Over the years, Freedman has been a prolific producer
> >of anti-Semitic tracts, statements and pamphlets.  Many of
> >them have been used by most of the most well-known
> >anti-Semite.  I'm sure you've seen them in one form or
> >another.  He considered himself a martyr and bragged "Since
> >the death of Hitler, I am the most hated man in the world."
> >
> >   The May 1, 1959 issue of "Common Sense" ("The Nation's
> >  Anti-Communist Newspaper") has four tabloid-size pages
> >  filled with Freedman's story of the "discovery" of the
> >  canard. (Headline: Christians duped by unholiest hoax in
> >  al      The Khazar story was the grand passion of his life for
> >  many years.  Morris Kominsky (Hoaxers, Branden Press) says
> >  he could go on for hours on the subject without time out
> >  for a  breath of fresh air.  "Freedman expatiated on his
> >  Khazar delusion to a group of seven or eight Congressmen
> >  for five hours without surcease."
> >  l history "Big Lie" technique pushing USA to the brink of
> >  World War III").  This so-called "Anti-Communist" paper
> >  consisted for years mainly of anti-Jewish and anti-black
> >  diatribes as well as anti-welfare tirades.
> >     From Mr Freedman's article:
> >     "The U.S.A. Christians continue being brainwashed by
> >  the U.S.A. media of mass-communication that so-called "Jews"
> >  of throughout the world today are the actual historic
> >  descendants of the so-called "Jews" of the Holy Land in Old
> >  Testament history.  The U.S.A. Christians have been
> >  brainwashed by so-called Jews of historic Khazar ancestry,
> >  and by their servile Christian stooges, as they have been
> >  brainwashed by them for many years with the unholiest hoax
> >  in all recorded history of mankind, betraying the
> >  confidence of Christians.
> >     "Incontestable facts supply the unchallengable proof of
> >  the historic accuracy that so-called "Jews" throughout the
> >  world today of eastern European origin are unquestionably
> >  the historic descendants of the Khazars, a pagan Turco-Finn
> >  ancient Mongoloid nation deep in the heart of Asia, who
> >  battled their way into bloody wars about the 1st B.C.
> >  century into eastern Europe where they set up their Khazar
> >  kingdom...
> >     "The "big lie" technique of the unholiest hoax in all
> >  the recorded history of mankind brainwashed U.S.A.
> >  Christians into believing that Jesus Christ was actually a
> >  Jew in the sense that so-called Jews call themselves Jews
> >  now to bamboozle Christians."
> >       A very good debunking of the canard that 92% of
> >  today's  Jews are made up of descendants of a Mongolian
> >  tribe comes  from the pen of Dr. V. Orval Watts, a
> >  Holocaust denier with  John Birch Society connections.  In
> >  the ultra-right wing   "Santa Ana Register" November 6,
> >  1963, Watts says:  "There is no more reason for assuming
> >  that a Russian  Jew is a Khazar than to assume that an
> >  American Episcopalian is a Celtic descendant of King
> >  Arthur's Knights."
> >     >
> >--
> >Annie Alpert
> >
> >"All would be well,
> > All would be heavenly--
> > If the damned would only stay damned."--Charles Fort, 1919

"And are not they [today's "Jews"] the inventors of the Chosen People 
myth?" -- [Dr. Oscar Levy, preface, "The World Significance of the 
Russian Revolution," George Pitt Rivers (Oxford, England: Basil 
Blackwell, 1920) vi

Professor of Medieval Jewish History, Abraham N. Poliak of Tel Aviv 
University, has stated "The large majority of world Jewry is descended 
>from  the Jews of Khazaria." ("The Thirteenth Tribe" by Arthur Koestler 
(New York: Random House, 1976) p.226)

The American People's Encyclopedia for 1964 at 15-292 records the 
following reference to Khazars:
"In the year 740 the Khazars were officially converted to Judaism.  A 
century later they were cursed by the in-coming Slavic-speaking people 
and were scattered over central Europe where they were known as Jews.  It 
is from this grouping that most German and Polish Jews are descended, and 
they likewise make up a considerable part of that population now found in 
America.  The term Aschenazim is now applied to this....division."
Alfred Lilienthal writes, in What Price Israel (Henry Regenery Co., 1953) 
 "Perhaps the most significant mass conversion to the Judaic Faith 
occurred in Europe, in the 8th century A.D., and that story of the 
Khazars (Turko-Finnish people) is quite pertinent to the establishment of 
the modern state of Israel."  Again, "That the Khazars are the lineal 
ancestors of Eastern European Jewry is a historical fact.  Jewish 
historians and religious textbooks acknowledge the fact, though the 
propagandists of Jewish nationalism belittle it as pro-Arab propaganda."

The Jews fully understand their Khazarian heritage as the third edition 
of the Jewish Encyclopedia for 1925 records:
"Chazars: a people of Turkish origin whose life and history are 
interwoven with the very beginnings of the history of the Jews of 
Russia." The Jewish Encyclopedia, Third Edition, 1925

The World Book Encyclopedia states:  "The Jews were once a sub-type of 
the Mediterranean race, but they have mixed with other peoples until the 
name Jew has lost all racial meaning."

Albert Einstein said:  "Anti-Semitism is nothing but the antagonistic 
attitude produced in the non-Jew by the Jewish group.  The Jewish group 
has thrived on oppression and on the antagonism it has forever met in the 
world."  (Collier's Magazine, Nov. 26, 1938) Einstein was describing 
their common use of "chutzpah" for their own gain and profit while crying 
"persecution."



-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:00 PDT 1996
Article: 2885 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.religion.christian
Subject: sure, but who set up the laws?
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 19:30:02 -0700
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Sam wrote:
> 
> knechamk@panix.com (Kirk Nechamkin) wrote:
> 
> >Sam (sam@beavis.u-net.com) wrote:
> 
> >Uh, we are not "made of" DNA. Rather, DNA is our instruction code.
> 
> This is how it is... There is such a thing as chemistry. Certain
> chemicals like to form compounds. If I had a planet full of primordial
> soup, with the same kind of weather as primitive earth, life _would_
> evolve. Not by chance. By physical law.
> 
> DNA is nothing but a chemical. It is possible to create it from
> scratch, no life necessary. If you make some DNA, then put it in a vat
> of the right chemicals, it will reproduce. Purely by chemical means.
> It is not "alive", else the chemist would be "GoD". Now virii are
> basically just that. Proteins that reproduce.
> 
> While DNA is your "instruction code", the cells you are made of are
> basically bags of water and protein. It is the DNA that makes these
> cells what they are, and makes them multiply. It's all a series of
> straight forward chemical reactions, and they all happen every day
> within you, and that is what keeps you alive. Chemistry.
> 
> There is no "GoD" in this theory, because it doesn't need one. It
> works perfectly anyway.
> 
> >What you're saying is something like: If I took some data, put it
> >on a floppy disk, I'd have a program. This is what Windows '95
> >is -- a program.
> 
> No. You seem to be full of these dodgy metaphors. Chemistry is nothing
> like computers.
> 
> >First of all, you're forgetting that you NEED A COMPUTER to USE a
> >program.
> 
> Well in this barely-relevant analogy, your computer is a big pool full
> of chemicals.
> 
> >Can you COMPARE random data to a program like Windows '95?
> 
> Well they had to fill those megabytes with _something_.
> 
> >DNA has never been found in the world, other than in the world's
> >LIVING ORGANISMS. Never.
> 
> Yes it has. People have made it from component parts. It is a million
> (probably billion) dollar industry.
> 
> >Things don't JUST HAPPEN.
> 
> Things JUST HAPPEN for a REASON. If you let go of 10 marbles, they'd
> all end up on the floor, wouldn't they? Not on the ceiling or walls,
> and they wouldn't just stay there. That's the law of gravity, right?
> Similar laws govern everything.

that's it for now.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:01 PDT 1996
Article: 2892 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.apocalypse,alt.atheism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.blasphemy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.drugs.culture,alt.drugs.pot.cultivation,alt.evil,alt.individualism,alt.pagan,alt.punk,alt.rave,alt.religion.asatru,alt.religion.wicca,alt.satanism,fidonet.bible,fidonet.church.state,rec.drugs.cannabis,talk.atheism
Subject: sure, but who set up the laws?
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 19:28:23 -0700
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Sam wrote:
> 
> knechamk@panix.com (Kirk Nechamkin) wrote:
> 
> >Sam (sam@beavis.u-net.com) wrote:
> 
> >Uh, we are not "made of" DNA. Rather, DNA is our instruction code.
> 
> This is how it is... There is such a thing as chemistry. Certain
> chemicals like to form compounds. If I had a planet full of primordial
> soup, with the same kind of weather as primitive earth, life _would_
> evolve. Not by chance. By physical law.
> 
> DNA is nothing but a chemical. It is possible to create it from
> scratch, no life necessary. If you make some DNA, then put it in a vat
> of the right chemicals, it will reproduce. Purely by chemical means.
> It is not "alive", else the chemist would be "GoD". Now virii are
> basically just that. Proteins that reproduce.
> 
> While DNA is your "instruction code", the cells you are made of are
> basically bags of water and protein. It is the DNA that makes these
> cells what they are, and makes them multiply. It's all a series of
> straight forward chemical reactions, and they all happen every day
> within you, and that is what keeps you alive. Chemistry.
> 
> There is no "GoD" in this theory, because it doesn't need one. It
> works perfectly anyway.
> 
> >What you're saying is something like: If I took some data, put it
> >on a floppy disk, I'd have a program. This is what Windows '95
> >is -- a program.
> 
> No. You seem to be full of these dodgy metaphors. Chemistry is nothing
> like computers.
> 
> >First of all, you're forgetting that you NEED A COMPUTER to USE a
> >program.
> 
> Well in this barely-relevant analogy, your computer is a big pool full
> of chemicals.
> 
> >Can you COMPARE random data to a program like Windows '95?
> 
> Well they had to fill those megabytes with _something_.
> 
> >DNA has never been found in the world, other than in the world's
> >LIVING ORGANISMS. Never.
> 
> Yes it has. People have made it from component parts. It is a million
> (probably billion) dollar industry.
> 
> >Things don't JUST HAPPEN.
> 
> Things JUST HAPPEN for a REASON. If you let go of 10 marbles, they'd
> all end up on the floor, wouldn't they? Not on the ceiling or walls,
> and they wouldn't just stay there. That's the law of gravity, right?
> Similar laws govern everything.

that's it for now.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:02 PDT 1996
Article: 2893 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.christnet.bible,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.theology,alt.christnet.evangelical,talk.religion.misc
Subject: wouldn't it be nice...
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 19:43:55 -0700
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...if more people on these newsgroups would just address the issues and 
evidences presented and refrain from the personal attacks and 
name-calling?
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:03 PDT 1996
Article: 2898 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible
Subject: try addressing the issue
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 19:37:23 -0700
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David Byrden wrote:
> 
> bud wrote:
> 
> > THE PROBLEM WITH EVOLUTION
> 
>   
> 
> > "As a result of all this, the main efforts of investigators have been in
> > papering over holes in the big bang theory....
> 
>         Bud, if (after all your reading) you think that the Big Bang is
> part of the theory of evolution, then you are probably a transitional life
> form between human and ape.
> 
>                                         David

well if you don't know that it is one of the "theories" upheld by 
Evolutionists who attempt to uuhold the theory of beginnings, then I'm 
the missing link that's more informed than you.  Now, if you would go 
ahead and factually refute the information posted, rather than engage in 
silly adhomenims, that would be surprising for people like yourself, 
wouldn't it?  Try it -- even if it would be a novelty.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:03 PDT 1996
Article: 2981 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.apocalypse,alt.atheism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.blasphemy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.drugs.culture,alt.drugs.pot.cultivation,alt.evil,alt.individualism,alt.pagan,alt.psychoactives,alt.punk,alt.rave,alt.religion.asatru,alt.religion.wicca,alt.satanism,alt.zen,fidonet.bible,fidonet.church.state,rec.drugs.cannabis,talk.atheism
Subject: must be a bigot here!
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 14:41:00 -0700
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Karen McFarlin wrote:
> 
> Funny, Bud, we only hear "Creation Science" from christian fundamentalists
> and not from real scientists. But maybe that fact has eluded you.
> 
> Cairns

after all, this person doesn't agree with me and singles out "Christian 
Fundamentalists."  !! Definitely anti-Christianism!
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:05 PDT 1996
Article: 2987 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet.theology
Subject: it's not a matter of racism or so-called anti-Semitism.  It's a matter of truth and who we are...
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 14:17:27 -0700
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Why is this important and relevant to Christianity today?
Many reasons, but the two primary ones would seem to be that by and large =

most of the Christian world today is being misled and misinformed about =

the injustices occurring in modern-day Israel (and this with American =

sanction and support); and also, what is the true position of those who =

are really Christians: that "they" are the chosen people of God as =

clearly revealed in the New Testament.  =

Also, READ THE INFORMATION.  =

You will not find Hitler, Mussolini, white supremacy, advocation of =

violence towards any particular group (although I realize it does have =

some "strong indictment possibilities" against the claims of false =

teachers making false claims).  There is some good biblical and =

historical material.  =

HOWEVER, IF YOU INSIST ON READING SOMETHING YOU WANT "INTO THE TEXT... =

This is your privilege... no matter what, may of you are so biased you =

will immediately "fill in white spaces with your own imaginings..."  (too =

frequent on these newsgroups).  =

Okay, here it is...
FIRST A FEW QUOTES
"And are not they [today's "Jews"] the inventors of the Chosen People =

myth?" -- [Dr. Oscar Levy, preface, "The World Significance of the =

Russian Revolution," George Pitt Rivers (Oxford, England: Basil =

Blackwell, 1920) =


Professor of Medieval Jewish History, Abraham N. Poliak of Tel Aviv =

University, has stated "The large majority of world Jewry is descended =

>from  the Jews of Khazaria." ("The Thirteenth Tribe" by Arthur Koestler =

(New York: Random House, 1976) p.226)

The American People's Encyclopedia for 1964 at 15-292 records the =

following reference to Khazars:
"In the year 740 the Khazars were officially converted to Judaism.  A =

century later they were cursed by the in-coming Slavic-speaking people =

and were scattered over central Europe where they were known as Jews.  It =

is from this grouping that most German and Polish Jews are descended, and =

they likewise make up a considerable part of that population now found in =

America.  The term Aschenazim is now applied to this....division."
Alfred Lilienthal writes, in What Price Israel (Henry Regency Co., 1953) =

 "Perhaps the most significant mass conversion to the Judaic Faith =

occurred in Europe, in the 8th century A.D., and that story of the =

Khazars (Turko-Finnish people) is quite pertinent to the establishment of =

the modern state of Israel."  Again, "That the Khazars are the lineal =

ancestors of Eastern European Jewry is a historical fact.  Jewish =

historians and religious textbooks acknowledge the fact, though the =

propagandists of Jewish nationalism belittle it as pro-Arab propaganda."

The Jews fully understand their Khazarian heritage as the third edition =

of the Jewish Encyclopedia for 1925 records:
"Chazars: a people of Turkish origin whose life and history are =

interwoven with the very beginnings of the history of the Jews of =

Russia." The Jewish Encyclopedia, Third Edition, 1925

The World Book Encyclopedia states:  "The Jews were once a sub-type of =

the Mediterranean race, but they have mixed with other peoples until the =

name Jew has lost all racial meaning."

Albert Einstein said:  "Anti-Semitism is nothing but the antagonistic =

attitude produced in the non-Jew by the Jewish group.  The Jewish group =

has thrived on oppression and on the antagonism it has forever met in the =

world."  (Collier's Magazine, Nov. 26, 1938) Einstein was describing =

their common use of "chutzpah" for their own gain and profit while crying =

"persecution."

The term anti-Semite when applied to opposition to Jews is also a =

misnomer because the vast majority of Talmudic Jews today are not =

Semites.  There are many Khazar (Chazar or Khozer) Jews, Black Jews, =

Chinese Jews, East Indian Jews, Mexican, Japanese Jews, etc.  According =

to some authorities the Khazar Jews alone make up over 90% of the Jewish =

population of the world.  Only the Sephardic Jews are considered to be =

the descendants of Shem.  According to Benjamin Freedman, a converted =

Jew, the Khazar Jews are not Semites.  Mr. Freedman in his book, FACTS =

ARE FACTS on p. 42 quotes the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA in part as follows:  =

"At the end of the eighth century... the Chagan (king) of the Chazars and =

his grandees together were a large number of his heathen people embraced =

the Jewish religion ... about the ninth century, it appears as if all the =

Chazars were Jews and they had converted to Judaism only a short time =

before ... after a hard fight the Russians conquered the Chazars."

Douglas reed puts it this way:  The destructive achievement; in both the =

Zionist and Communist aspect, came from the Jews in Russia and the =

Romanoff; that is the key to the understanding of the present and the =

future.  THE JEWS WHO MADE THOSE TWO MOVEMENTS WERE NOT SEMITES; on that =

all qualified authorities agree; ... They are descendants of a Russian, =

Mongol Tartar race converted to Judaism in the 7th century whose remote =

forbears never trod the Palestinian soil" (FAR AND WIDE, p. 276- Emphasis =

added).

"IN PART II, CH, V-VII, I HAVE COMPILED THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE WHICH =

INDICATES THAT THE BULK OF EASTERN JEWRY - AND HENCE THE WORLD JEWRY -- =

IS OF KHAZAR-TURKISH, RATHER THAN SEMITIC, ORIGIN.  IN THIS LAST CHAPTER =

I HAVE TRIED TO SHOW THAT THE EVIDENCE FROM ANTHROPOLOGY CONCURS WITH =

HISTORY IN REFUTING THE POPULAR BELIEF IN A JEWISH RACE DESCENDED FROM A =

BIBLICAL TRIBE" (THE THIRTEENTH TRIBE, by Arthur Koestler, a Jew. p. 199 =

- Emphasis added).

AND NOW FOR SOME IN-DEPTH DISCUSSION FOR YOUR CONSIDERATION:  NEARLY 90% =

OF THE JEWS TODAY ARE NOT DESCENDANTS OF ABRAHAM AND ARE NOT SEMITES
	When the Israelite tribes conquered the land of Canaan under =

Joshua, and settled in the land, they intermarried with the indigenous =

Canaanites and Philistines and therefore, as the Bible records, they were =

absorbed by the different Semitic tribes which lived in the land of =

Canaan, namely, the Canaanites, Jebusites, Admits, Philistines and =

others.  The population of the land of Canaan under King David and King =

Solomon and their successors became a cohesion of races, to which the =

Bible testifies.  As a proof, the Mother of King David was "a daughter of =

Idra, an Ishmaelite." (i)   The mother of King Solomon, Bath-sheba, was a =

Canaanite, with her roots in the kingdom of Giloh. (ii)   King Solmon =

married seven hundred wives and also had three hundred concubines. (iii) =

  The majority of his wives were from notable Canaanite and Philistine =

families, as well as from prominent families of each of the twelve =

Israelite tribes and princesses from neighboring kingdoms such as Egypt, =

Ammon, Moab, Edom, Tyre, Aram and Yemen. (iv)   Therefore, all of these =

progeny could not be considered Jews according to the "Halacha."  Many of =

the Israelites worshipped Baal and Ashtoreth among other deities.  king =

Solomon built many temples for these deities and his wives worshipped in =

these temples. (v)   The succeeding kings of the royal house of David =

almost invariably married non-Israelite wives either from neighboring =

lands such as Ammon, Moab and Phoenicia, or from important Canaanite =

families, especially Jebusites, who continued to worship their old gods. =

 the inhabitants of the land of Canaan, i.e., Canaanites, Israelites, =

Philistines and Edomites became a mixed population through intermarriage =

and could not be called Jews by today's Halachic vi  standard claimed by =

Judaism.  One of the condemnations made by the prophets against the =

Israelites was that they continually married non-Israelite wives and =

worshipped the Canaanite gods.  During the Babylonian captivity the Jews =

also intermarried with the various races in the Babylonian and Persian =

Empires.  Ezra the Scribe, reports in his Chapter 10 that even the sons =

of Israelite priests had taken strange wives.  In verses 18-41 he =

mentions the names of the sons of all the priests who had married foreign =

wives.  Ezra, having been given "full powers from the Persian King =

Artaxeres to impose the law of the Torah on the Jerusalemites, decreed =

that mixed marriages with non-Jewish wives were annulled. (vii)   The =

great Jewish historian, H. Graetz, writes that 'The grief of the wives =

deserted by their husbands, and the sight of children disowned by their =

fathers could not fail to awaken and to increase the animosity of those =

who were closely related to them. (viii )  As a result of "the attitude =

of Ezra and Nehemiah, who opposed the assimilation of other ethnic =

elements, did not prevail."(ix )
After the occupation of the land of Canaan by the Greeks, intermarriage =

increased between the different ethnic groups of the populations, mainly =

Canaanites, Israelites, Philistines, Edomites and Greek colonists.  The =

Greek language became the dominant language of the land, together with =

the Aramiac.  Hellenic culture dominated.  During the Roman period the =

cohesion between the different sections of the population became =

stronger.  The land of Canaan took the name Palestine and after the =

crucifixion of Jesus Christ and the spread of Christianity in Palestine =

many Jews became Christians, such as Peter and Paul and many other =

leaders of the first Christian church.  Strife took place between the =

Christians, the pagans, the Samaritans and the Jews..  When the majority =

of the population of Palestine became Christian many of the Jews who had =

not become Christians left Palestine to neighboring countries such as =

Egypt, Phoenicia, Syria, Mesopotamia, Arabia, Yemen and Anatolia.  Many =

of these Jews intermarried with the local inhabitants.  Thus there was =

never a "Jewish race." in the land of Canaan, and those Jews who lived in =

Palestinian communities abroad of the time of Paul, and then later in the =

Mediterranean countries, intermarried with the local inhabitants and =

became 'Sephardim of the most mixed racial origins." (x) some Oriental =

Jews have no family roots in Palestine at all, as they were Berbers who =

became Jews through conversion such as the Jews from Morocco, Algeria and =

Tunisia, with the exception of the Jews from the Djerba island, who had =

Palestinian descendants.
	The most important fact about the Jews of today is that 90% of =

them are not Semitic but are descendants of Khazars who adopted Judaism =

in the 9th century A.D..  The present Jews of Russia and Central and =

Eastern Europe, and the United States are of Khazar origin, and the =

leadership of the Jewish community in Palestine, before and after 1948 =

until today, is of Khazar origin.  They are not Semites, have no roots in =

Palestine, and are not descendants of Abraham.

WHO ARE THE KHAZARS AND HOW DID THEY BECOME JEWS?
	From the Jewish Encyclopedia we have the following definition:  =

"A people of Turkish origin whose life and history are interwoven with =

the very beginnings of the history of the Jews of Russia.  The kingdom of =

the Khazars was firmly established in most of South Russia long before =

the foundation of the Russian monarch by the Varagians (855)...Driven =

onward by the nomadic tribes of the steppes and by their own desire for =

plunder and revenge, they made frequent invasions into Armenia...
In the Second half of the sixth century the Khazars moved westward.  They =

established themselves in the territory bounded by the Sea of Azov, the =

Don and the lower Volga, the Caspian Sea, and the Northern Caucus... In =

679 the Khazar subjugated the Bulgars and extended their sway further =

west between the Don and Dnjieper, as far as the headwaters of =

Donetz...It was probably about that time that the Khagan (Bulan) of the =

Khazars and his grandees, together with a large number of his heathen =

people, embraced the Jewish religion...
	It was on the successors of Bulan, named Obadiah, who regenerated =

the kingdom and strengthened the Jewish religion.  He invited Jewish =

scholars to settle in his dominions, and founded synagogues and schools. =

 The people were instructed in the Bible, Mishnah, and Talmud...
	From the work 'Kitab al-Buldan' written about the ninth century, =

it appears as if all the khazars were Jews and that they had converted to =

Judaism only a short time before that book was written... It may be =

assumed that in the ninth century many Khazar heathens became Jews, owing =

to the religious zeal of King Obadiah.  'Such a conversion in great =

masses says Chwolson (Izvyestiya o Khazarakh, p. 58), 'may have been the =

reason for the embassy of Christians from the land of Khazar to the =

Byzantine emperor Michael...
The Jewish population in the entire domain of the KHAZARS in the period =

between the seventh and tenth centuries, must have been considerable...
	The Russians invaded the trans-Caucasian country in 944... This =

seems to have been the beginning of the downfall of the Khazar kingdom... =

The Russian prince Sviatoslav made war upon the Khazars...(c.974) the =

Russians conquered all the Khazarian territory east of the Sea of Azoz.  =

Only the Crimean territory of the Khazars remained in their possession =

until 1016, when they were dispossessed by the joint expedition of =

Russians and Byzantines... Many were sent as prisoners of war to Kiev, =

where a Khazar community had long existed... Some went to Hungary, but =

the great mass of the people remained in their native country.  Many =

members of the Khazarian royal family emigrated to Spain...x 	Professor =

Graetz describes the Khazar kingdom as follows:  "The heathen king of a =

barbarian people. living in the north, together with all his court, =

adopted the Jewish religion... Their kings, who bare the title of Khakhan =

or Khagan, had led these warlike people of the steppe from victory to =

victory...
	It is possible that the circumstances under which the Khazars =

embraced Judaism have been embellished by legend, but the fat itself is =

too definitely proved on all sides to allow any doubt as to its reality. =

 Besides Bulan, the nobles of his kingdom, numbering nearly four =

thousand, adopted the Jewish religion.  Little by little it made its way =

among the people, so that most of the inhabitants of the towns of the =

Khazar kingdom were Jews...At first the Judaism of the Khazars must have =

been rather superficial, and could have had but a little influence on =

their mind and manners...
	A successor of Bulan, who bore the Hebrew name of Obadiah, was =

the first to make the serious efforts to further the Jewish religion.  He =

invited Jewish sages to settle in his dominion, rewarded them royally, =

founded synagogues and schools, caused instruction to be given to himself =

and his people in the Bible and the Talmud, and introduced a divine =

service modeled on that of the ancient communities... After Obadiah came =

a long serious of Jewish Khaghans, for according to fundamental low of =

the state only Jewish rulers were permitted to ascend to the throne." =

(xi) 	During the 10th, 11th, 12th, and 13th centuries, the rapidly =

expanding Russian nations gradually swallowed up the Khazar kingdom and =

its neighbors directly to the south.  Therefore the Khazars spread =

throughout Russia, Eastern and Central Europe.  It can be stated that all =

the Jews in Russian, Eastern and Central Europe are of Khazar origin.  =

They are not Semitic.  They are not descendants of Abraham, but Khazars =

of Turko-Finn origin.
	Professor Abraham N. Poliak, Head of the Department of Middle =

Eastern and African Studies in Tel Aviv University, discovered previously =

unknown sources on the Khazar kingdom.  He published an authoritative =

book "Khazaria," in Hebrew in 1944, in which he stated that the =

descendants of the Khazars -- "those who stayed where they were, those =

who emigrated to the United States and to other countries, and those who =

went to Israel -- constitute the large majority of world Jewry. (xii) 	=

Dr. John Wilmot states:  "Nevertheless, if it be a question of again =

being given, under covenant long-standing, the land in possession, with =

tribal inheritances, statehood, temple, priesthood, sacrifices, the once =

chosen nation restored to favor and priority in rule over all nations for =

a thousand years, then the evidence of true descent from 'the fathers' to =

whom promise was made becomes indispensible to support the claim.  There =

a multitudes of Jews content with the lands of their birth or adoption, =

who have no wish or purpose to return 'home.'  But what of those returned =

and returning?  The scripture describes the true Jew and it refers to =

some "which say they are Jews and are not,' which, if taken in its racial =

literalness may find explication in the following quotation from 'The =

Christian' recommending discrimination between 'the real Jews and the =

Zionists.':  Zionists throughout the world are overwhelmingly of Eastern =

European origin.  these Yiddish-speaking 'Jews' have no racial connection =

with Palestine or the ancient Hebrews and ore of Khazar origin... Jewish =

historians such as Graetz, Dubnow, Freidland, Raisin and others support =

this too.  Zionist have long misrepresented that these races of Jewish =

faith have a right to go to Palestine was their only hope.  It is because =

of political Zionism that anti-Semitism spreads, and not because of =

Hebrew traditions and religion.  To that remnant of Orthodox Jewry which =

believe in the authority of the Old Testament and holds fast to the laws =

of the Pentateuch, we can offer respect and sympathy.  To the Zionist who =

has only the restoration of the land for his personal goal, we can only =

say that he is endeavoring to frustrate God's unalterable will, an =

impossible proceeding. (xiii) 	The point of the above facts is that =

neither the Jews of Palestine at the time of Jesus Christ nor the Jews of =

today can be called a race.  They are referred to as Jews because they =

profess the Jewish religion, in the same way that Muslims and Christians =

are of different races and nationalities.  The "Encyclopedia Britannica =

authoritatively states:  "The findings of physical anthropology show =

that, contrary to the popular view, there is no Jewish race.  =

Anthropometric measurements of the Jewish groups in many parts of the =

world indicate that they differ greatly from one another with respect to =

all important physical characteristics. (xiv)	These facts destroy the =

foundation of the Jewish historical claim to Palestine and destroys the =

religious arguments advanced by the Zionists, some Christian Zionists, =

and the electronic evangelists who falsely claim that the Jews of today =

are "the seed of Abraham," that they are "the chosen people," and that =

the establishment of the Jewish state, incorrectly called Israel, is a =

fulfillment of Biblical prophecy.FOOTNOTESI Encyclopedia Judaica, volume =

10, p. 6.
ii Joshua 15:51.
iii 1 Kings 11:3.
iv Mina C. Klein and H. Arthur Klein, 'Israel, Land of the Jews' =

(Indianapolis; Bobbs-Merrill Co., 1972), p. 53.
v 1 Kings 11:7
vi   Webster's defines "ha-la-khah (h=E4 l=F4'KHuh, h=E4 l=E4 KH=E4')"  n. =
pl. =

<-la-khahs, -la-khoth, -la-khot>(-l=E4 KH=F4t') 1.  the body of Jewish law,=
 =

comprising the oral law as transcribed in the Talmud and subsequent legal =

codes and Rabbinical decisions. 2.  a law or tradition established by the =

halakhah.
vii The encyclopedia of the Jewish Religion, P. 140.
viii  H. Graetz, 'The History of the Jews' (Philadelphia: the Jewish =

Publication Society of America, 1891), volume 1, p. 369ix  Enclclopedia =

Judaica volume 3 p. 771.
x  The Jewish Encyclopedia, volume 4 p. 1-6.xi  H. Graetz, 'History of =

the Jews' volume3, pp. 138-141.xii  Arthur Koestler, 'The Thirteenth =

Tribe' (New York: Popular Library, 1976), pp. 17-18.xiii  Wilmot, =

'Inspired Principle of Prophetic Interpretation,' pp 158-159.xiv  =

Encyclopedia Britannica (Chicago: Encyclopedia Britannica, 1973) volume =

12, p. 1054.

Galatians 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave =

nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are ALL ONE in =

Christ Jesus. 29  And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's =

offspring, heirs according to promise.
(capitalization and emphasis by me)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:06 PDT 1996
Article: 2989 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.apocalypse,alt.atheism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.blasphemy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.drugs.culture,alt.drugs.pot.cultivation,alt.evil,alt.individualism,alt.pagan,alt.psychoactives,alt.punk,alt.rave,alt.religion.asatru,alt.religion.wicca,alt.satanism,alt.zen,fidonet.bible,fidonet.church.state,rec.drugs.cannabis,talk.atheism
Subject: gee, I wish I had though of that powerful retort to facts...
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 14:29:39 -0700
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FUCK THE POLICE wrote:
> 
> Ben Brucato  took a fat hit off a pipe and
> wrote:
> 
> >Mohr, alas a piece of wisdom ...... You're right, these
> >people clearly brainwashed by a social disease (Christianity)
> >need to spread their superstitious mumbo-jumbo elsewhere.
> 
> SUPPORT THE WAR AGAINST CHRISTIANITY
> 
>         
> 
> UNHOLY BLASPHEMY AGAINST ALL GODS

that's it for now.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:07 PDT 1996
Article: 2996 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet.theology
Subject: To all you bigots...
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 14:48:37 -0700
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If you don't want to be a bigot and an "anti-Christianist" you better not 
disagree with the posting "it's not a matter of..."


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:08 PDT 1996
Article: 3004 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: are you a bigot?
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 14:59:34 -0700
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:30:26 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:
> 
> >On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:45:32 -0700, bud  wrote:
> 
> >>If you don't know who "invented" this "misnomer" how do you know
> >>he/she/it/they were/are "Jew-hater's?"  Get real and drop the persecution
> >>complex everytime somebody tells some truth in relation to you or your
> >>selction religion.  Christians have to deal with it all the time.
> >The Term "AntiSemite was coined by Wilhelm Marr, and if you had read
> >anything about him you would have known that, but you didn't
> >dudrite, what a maroon.
> 
> 
>_______________________________________________________________________
> >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
> >interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
> >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
> >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
> >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
> >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
> >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
> >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
> >respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
> 
>_______________________________________________________________________
> >URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
> 
> >P. GROFF
> ========
> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
> Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
> From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT
> 
> " The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
> entrances to the four-story
> house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
> the same people were
> forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
> had to be transferred to one
> place in the courtyard. "
> IMT VII - p.491.

Hey...! Are you disagreeing with me?!  Are you a bigot?  Are you one of 
those "Christian-hating" anti-Christianists?
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:09 PDT 1996
Article: 3021 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.theology,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet.philosophy,a.bsu.religion,alt.atheism,talk.atheism,talk.origins
Subject: Hoyle on the "Big Bang"  and....
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 17:27:30 -0700
Organization: home
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References:  <4r7crl$e5h@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4r7seb$fs7@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4r8tk5$gpk@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <31E30166.2D7F@mho.net>    <31F800DD.9D0@eagle.wbm.ca> 
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Alan B. Mac Farlane wrote:
> 
> 31E30166.2D7F@mho.net>, Jim Freedom  wrote:
> > > >>>Big Bang is just the scientist's way of saying "In the beginning ..."
> > > >
> > > >>Nope.  It was Hoyle's way of saying.   The rest just used it.
> > > >>It's the scientist's way of saying T=0 to the present.
> > > >
> > > >Hmmm . . . let's break that down . . .
> > >
> > > My GOD!!!  Is this a creationist that wants to get to specifics?!?
> > > :)
> > >
> > > >The Scientist's way of saying t=0 (the beginning)
> > >
> > > I'm sorry.  I goofed.  T=0 is NOT a begining.  There is no time,
> > > no space, no begingin.
> > >
> > > I couldn't think of a way to say, "t=that infinate amount of a fraction
> > > just after T=0".
> > >
> 
> ////
> 
> Hi Jim:
> 
> Some wag once remarked that maybe God was bored one of His days, and
> started to mastrubate, out shot all the star stuff, galaxies, light beings
> and the like.  So the Big Bang was just a big orgasism, and seems to fit
> in the orgasmic pattern, for that pattern is a universal as far as I can
> see.  It is even in the valye of pi = 3.1415926535.  You rock your world
> at the 9; actually that pattern is a double orgasism.  I even think
> chemical bonding is chemicle sex, and that orgasmic pattern is a predictor
> to making new chemicle or even breaking down older and more toxic ones.
> 
> L8R
> 
> Alan
> 
> --
> Alan Brainaic Mac Farlane
> 
> Disclaimer, don't need no stinkin disclaimer.  I am on a Macintosh !

"As a result of all this, the main efforts of investigators have been in 
papering over holes in the big bang theory, to build up an idea that has 
become ever more complex and cumbersome...I HAVE LITTLE HESITATION IN 
SAYING THAT A SICKLY PALL NOW HANGS OVER THE BIG BANG THEORY.  When a 
pattern of facts become set against a theory, experience shows that the 
theory rarely recovers."  (Evolutionist Sir Fred Hoyle, famous British 
astronomer and cosmologist.  "The Big Bang Theory Under Attack" Science 
Digest, Vol. 92 (May 1984), p. 84 (emphasis added)).

"Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random 
is so utterly minuscule as to make it absurd, it becomes sensible to 
think that the favorable properties of physics, on which life depends, 
are in every respect deliberate...It is, therefore, almost inevitable 
that our own measure of intelligence must reflect higher intelligence -- 
even to the limit of God."  (Evolutionist Fred Hoyle and N. Chandra 
Wickramasinghe, "Evolution from Space" London: J.M. Dent and Company, 
1981, pp. 141,144)

"The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter of one to 
the number of 40,000 noughts after it... IT IS BIG ENOUGH TO BURY DARWIN 
AND THE WHOLE THEORY OF EVOLUTION.  There was no primeval soup, neither 
on this planet nor on any other, and if the beginnings of life were not 
random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful 
intelligence."  ("Hoyle On Evolution", Nature Vol. 294, #5837 November 
12, 1981, p. 148 emphasis added.

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:10 PDT 1996
Article: 3029 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: burning bodies not proof.  Don't disagree and be a bigot!
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 17:50:58 -0700
Organization: home
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Kevin W. Davidson wrote:
> 
> Rev previously wrote an article appearing in talk.religion.misc:
> 
> >    No, it seems to be you that is not listening....You insist on
> >living in your la-la land of the Holocaust, regardless of what the
> >experts say.
> 
> >    Now, no one denies that the Jews were placed in detention
> >centers...And no one denies that many died there, as happens in any
> >prison.
> 
> Yeah, Rev, and the prison guards were so stupid that they put the
> clothes in the fumigation chambers and forgot to take them off the
> prisoners first.
> 
> Your so-called scientific expert has nothing but a little under-grad
> chemistry.
> 
> Who's in La La?
> 
> --
> Kevin (kwdavids@mercury.interpath.com) | http://www.interpath.com/~kwdavids/
> 
> * In this world of toil and sin
>   You scalp grows bald, but not your chin. - Burma Sig

Check out your history books about the black plague and other outbreaks 
of Cholera, typhus and such that often decimated thousands and thousands 
of victims.  Actually millions and millions died in the world during 
these ravaging plagues. Along with this history records that bodies had 
to be burned to avoid further infestation.  This explanation has been 
offered by some of the revisionists and was given by some of the accused 
"war criminals".  According to some, starvation, disease and typhus was 
killing thousand every day in the labor camps towards the end of the war. 
It has also been pointe out that the allied bombings and raids on 
railroads, cities, etc., were also to blame for the lack of ability to 
get any food to these camps.  Sure it had to be done, but this also can 
explain much of the burning, etc.  Additionally, several thousand  
(or 20,000!) bodies burned does not add up to 6 million.  
If you disagree with me, you're a bigot and an anti-Christianist...


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:11 PDT 1996
Article: 3035 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: what I'm defending
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 18:12:50 -0700
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jerry@gnatnet.net wrote:
> 
> buehler@space.mit.edu (Royce Buehler) wrote:
> 
> >I am sorry to yell at you, Bud, but it is deeply frustrating when
> >you defend a shameless blasphemer, and at the same time hurl the accusation
> >that I have made a "substitution of the Lord's name" when all I have
> >done is to take the real blasphemer to task. I *loathe* the association of
> >my Lord's name with Hitler's. That is why I object to it so strongly every
> >time that "Rev" does it.
> 
> >--
> >Royce Buehler  buehler@space.mit.edu   (617)-253-9766
> >  "Comme un fou se croit Dieu, nous nous croyons mortels"
> >       -- Pierre Delalande
> 
> In the book Stedfast by Roger Elwood, there is a fictional account of
> the almost conversion of Heinrich Himmler, but "the thought of
> reaching out to a Man who was incarnated two thousand years before as
> an itinerant Jew, a hated Jew, was impossible to accept, and he threw
> away salvation because of this."  Roger Elwood ends the narrative with
> "Coming close is not enough..."  The Rev also will have to meet that
> Man, a hated Jew.
> With fear and trembling,
> Jeremiah...

Actually, Royce, I am not defending his methodology.  I do defend his 
right to voice his opinion, and I note with some appreciation that he 
does not resort to cursing and other name-calling (at least not that I 
have seen).  I do agree with SOME of his views however (about the idea of 
this "chosen people" not being the modern-day Jews and some other 
matters)  I believe this is a lie and a false teaching and is not 
supported by New Testament revelation.  But I have, I think, already 
gotten this straightened out with you and I hope we agree to disagree 
agreeably... I most certainly do not like the constant personal 
accusations and attacks by the "near-fanatics" who like to call everybody 
who disagrees with them either a "Nazi" or an "anti-Semite" or some other 
convenient term that seems to attempt to avoid addressing the content 
and the issue.  I have MUCH LESS respect for these people than I do for 
this "Rev." even if he is some of what you say he is.  Royce, I worked in 
Christian radio for years, produced a show in Los Angeles.  We had many 
debates in that time and I learned by watching and listening and it is my 
opinion that most people with a weak argument attack the person, not the 
issue.  I have seen this over and over again.  I believe that this is 
true of the methodology being employed by those attempting to answer SOME 
 or the Revisionist research, and I believe this also applies to this 
issue of who are "The Chosen people" etc.  There is no doubt but that 
there is an influential faction "out there" trying to silence their 
critics by legislation and accussation of "hate talk" and it is all very 
very suspicious to me.  On the radio programs we would never advocate or 
tolerate such methods-- and, as I said, they were almost always a "sure 
sign" that the opposition had "something to hide."

Galatians 3:
28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, 
there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29  And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs 
according to promise.


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:12 PDT 1996
Article: 3038 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,talk.religion.misc
Subject: actually they're right about most of the tv evangelists
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 18:28:58 -0700
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todd@oasis.novia.net wrote:
> 
> Rapture Index World Wide WEB Site:
>  http:/www.novia.net/~todd
> 
> July 31
>      CBS completed the circle by also forcing out Joe Klein,
>     the Author of "Primary Colors." CBS as well as
>     Newsweek say were upset by the fact that Klein was
>     lying all this time. When did lying suddenly become a
>     problem in Journalism? I would say most reporters are
>     habitual liars. The real reason they're upset is because
>     Klein wrote things about the Clinton's that were not to
>     be written, even if it was in novel form.
> 
>     In an article that was reprinted in my local paper, The
>     New York Times came to the defense of the New Age
>     movement. The article bemoaned the fact that the New
>     Age movement was getting a reputation as being "flaky."
>     The Times cited Mrs. Clinton's reported chitchat with
>     Eleanor Roosevelt as one example of the publics growing
>     bias against the New Age. The Paper also noted that
>     society is ridiculing and mocking the New Age in the
>     very same way Evangelical Christians are being
>     Caricatured as fanatics. My goodness, when did the New
>     York Time realize that Evangelicals were being
>     Caricatured as fanatics. I guess that light only goes on
>     when they're trying to defend a movement that's of
>     demonic origins.
> 
>     July 25
>     I knew it! I knew it! When Joe Klein came forth and
>     admitted he wrote the book "Primary Colors," a novel
>     based on President Clinton's 1992 election campaign, I
>     assumed Klein would be punished for writing an
>     unflattering book about the Clintons. Well, Newsweek
>     has decided they can not live with themselves so they
>     have decided to suspended the political columnist. If the
>     subject of Joe Klien's book had only been Ronald Reagan
>     or George Bush, instead of suspending him, Newsweek
>     would have probably rewarded him with a more senior
>     position.
> 
>     Pat Bucannan raised the ire of the liberal media when he
>     spoke at the 1992 Republican convention. Those who are
>     running the show this time have excluded Pat from
>     speaking at the August convention. Oh, but they don't
>     know the press likes to have it both ways. I predict Pat
>     will now get all the media attention he can handle, that is
>     just as long as he plays the part of spoiler. Bucannan in
>     1992 said something that really upset the liberal media.
>     He said there was a "religious war going on in our
>     country for the soul of America." Pat would have been
>     more actuate if he had used, spiritual war, but he still
>     spoken prophetically. There is a war going on for the soul
>     of America.
> 
>     July 23
>     HEY EVERYBODY!!!! Bob Dole's 73 three years old.
>     The liberal press wants every one to know that. The
>     liberal Media was even nice enough to commission a
>     birthday poll that questioned people, Is Bob Dole too old
>     to be President - only a third said yes. It does, however,
>     appear that Dole is in better shape than tubby Bill Clinton
>     - according to health record. Rush Limbaugh said
>     something interesting today. Rush asked if the press
>     would say that Nelson Mandella was too old to be the
>     leader of a country. Nelson, who was 75 when he took
>     office, was never question once about this age. I guess
>     liberal leaders age better than conservative leaders.
> 
>     The Liberal Media is always there to remind us all "TV
>     preachers" are money greed swindlers. When a small
>     time Televangelist named Walter Grant Jr. was convicted
>     of tax evasion the reporters in the court room were
>     thicker than flies at a cattle yard.

They're in it for the money and generally know nothing about the 
Scripture.  But many millions of people get their theology from the likes 
of these tv evangelists and it's a big problem.  But they are right about 
the tv evangelists.  As for themselves?  Well, overall they apparently a 
bunch of self-aggrandizing, egotistical people with very high=paying jobs 
and say exactly what they are told to say... Most of them, though, I 
think are also what is commonly called "limosine Liberals" and care only 
about their own "stick."  Remember what the Lord said about the Father's 
Word being "Truth."

17  "Sanctify them in the truth; Thy word is truth.


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug  5 15:23:12 PDT 1996
Article: 3040 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.theology,alt.christnet.bible
Subject: definition of faith.
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 17:18:08 -0700
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>From  Webster's here it is...
faith (fayth)  n. 
                  1.  confidence or trust in a person or thing.
                  2.  belief that is not based on proof.
                  3.  belief in God or in the doctrines or 
                       teachings of religion.
                  4.  belief in anything, as a code of ethics 
                       or standards of merit.
                  5.  a system of religious belief: the Jewish 
                       faith.
                  6.  the obligation of loyalty or fidelity to 
                       a person, promise, engagement, etc.
                  7.  the observance of this obligation; 
                       fidelity to one's promise, oath, 

I'm of the opinion that 1 & 2 above definitely apply to those who 
"believe" in the "theory" of Evolution.


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  8 08:46:58 PDT 1996
Article: 93592 of alt.censorship
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.angst,alt.anonymous,alt.anonymous.messages,alt.anybody,alt.apocalypse,alt.atheism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.blasphemy,alt.captain.sarcastic,alt.censorship,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.conspiracy.area51,alt.culture.internet,alt.culture.usenet,alt.current-events.net-abuse,alt.current-events.net-abuse.spam,alt.current-events.usa,alt.drugs.culture,alt.drugs.pot.cultivation,alt.evil,alt.fashion,alt.hi.are.you.cute,alt.individualism,alt.internet.talk.bizarre,alt.life.sucks,alt.magick,alt.mindcontrol,alt.misc,alt.nuke.the.USA,alt.pagan,alt.parents-teens,alt.psy,alt.psychoactives,alt.punk,alt.rave,alt.religion.asatru,alt.religion.wicca,alt.satanism,alt.spam,alt.stupidity,alt.ufo.reports,alt.zen,fidonet.bible,fidonet.church.state,rec.drugs.cannabis,soc.culture.african.american,talk.atheism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: definition of "fundamentalist"
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 08:31:01 -0700
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Webster's definition of "Fundamentalist", in case there is any dispute at 
to it's meaning.  If you can find a dictionary that includes belief in 
this so-called "holocaust" within that definition, I'd like a copy or a 
place where I can check it out for myself.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  8 08:47:00 PDT 1996
Article: 93600 of alt.censorship
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.alien.visitors,alt.angst,alt.anonymous,alt.anonymous.messages,alt.anybody,alt.apocalypse,alt.atheism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.blasphemy,alt.captain.sarcastic,alt.censorship,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.second-coming.real-soon-now,alt.conspiracy.area51,alt.culture.internet,alt.culture.usenet,alt.current-events.net-abuse,alt.current-events.net-abuse.spam,alt.current-events.usa,alt.drugs.culture,alt.drugs.pot.cultivation,alt.evil,alt.fashion,alt.hi.are.you.cute,alt.individualism,alt.internet.talk.bizarre,alt.life.sucks,alt.magick,alt.mindcontrol,alt.misc,alt.nuke.the.USA,alt.pagan,alt.parents-teens,alt.psy,alt.psychoactives,alt.punk,alt.rave,alt.religion.asatru,alt.religion.wicca,alt.satanism,alt.spam,alt.stupidity,alt.ufo.reports,alt.zen,fidonet.bible,fidonet.church.state,rec.drugs.cannabis,soc.culture.african.american,talk.atheism,talk.religion.misc
Subject: a "fundamentalists" reply
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 08:27:42 -0700
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John Mitchell wrote:
> 
> Scott Maxwell wrote:
> >
> > > 1. "Jews are evil"(sic) every Christian Denomination has at its core a
> > >    denunciation of Jews as having caused Jesus' death.
> >
> >         Uh huh, and just which chapter of the bible says this?  (This is
> > especially untue for Fundimentalists who are very Pro-Isreal/Judeism.

I do not support present-day Isreal nor Judaism.  I believe most 
Christians today are being deceived into believing the lies of uninformed 
teachers, tv preachers and a very biased secular media.

> >
> 
> Fundamentalists support Israel, as otherwise they may difficulty going to
> Jerusalem.
> 
> > > 2. Order is a virtue (need no explanation there)
> >
> >         Right, that is one of the original Ten Virtues.  Order, Cleanliness,
> > and Flossing were truncated in the Middle Ages...
> >
> > > 3. Charity is highly desirable (the Nazis had more social programs than
> > >    any other government until the 1960s). Hitler promoted Charity as a
> > >    means of social coherence, just as all christians do.

Your point, please?  Does this mean Christians and Hitler or the same, 
etc.  I'm rather fed up with that analogy.  Marx was a Jew.  Are all Jews 
Communists?  Also, many Jews in Russian revolution are guilty of 
murdering millions of Christians and Russian civilians.  Does 
this then make all Jews murderers and persecutors?
 >
> >         OK, This is the same logic that says that Hitler is the true founding
> > father of Isreal...
> 
> But, if not for Hitler, there would have been no need for the existence
> of Israel!

Huh?  They started migrating there after WW 1, not after WW 2.  Check out 
the Balfour declaration.

> 
> >
> > > 4. Killing for your beliefs is justifiable (just lookto history for the proof).
> >
> >         I don't think that this is an exclusive to Catholicism or Chrstianity
> > in general (just look to history for proof).
> >
> > > So, even if the Pope didn't pull the trigger, he sure held the gun...

The Church of Rome is a chameleon.  it changes in accordance with its 
locale.  Today the Pope decries the so-called Holocaust (much of which is 
an exaggeration, but some of which is tragically true) and this Pope 
upholds just about whatever the popular opinion will support about the 
war, despite any real evidence to the contrary.

> >
> >         Yep, a complicated issue of the Second World War as described by a
> > complete idiot.

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)

Nixon is absolutely right!


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  8 10:29:13 PDT 1996
Article: 3413 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.theology,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet.philosophy,a.bsu.religion,alt.atheism,talk.atheism,talk.origins
Subject: quote your sources please.
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 17:35:34 -0700
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
> 
> In article <4u3fhu$orm@news.enter.net> wf3h@enter.net (bob puharic) writes:
> >
> >snipped out the crap....
> >
> >what creationists fail to point out is that hoyle is not a
> >creationist. he is a scientist. the 2 are mutually exclusive.
> 
> And his associate Chandra Wickramasinghe was actually called as a witness by
> the creationists in one of the equal time lawsuits (Arkansas?). They were
> too stupid to realise that although H&W's views in certain areas were
> rather unorthodox that they were still mainstream scientists.
> 
> I suppose this was due to creationist binary thinking.
> 
> So they were taken by surprise when their supposed star witness denounced
> creationism as claptrap!

and baloney--Hoyle is also an Evolutionist.  As for defining 
Evolutionists as Scientists and excluding Creationists from the 
definition you are attempting to define your opposition out of existence, 
a logical fallacy that does not hold up.  You Want the names of dozens of 
fine scientists who are also creationist contact ICR in Santee, 
California and they can supply you with dozens or men engage in all areas 
of the sciences who are creationists.  
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  8 10:29:15 PDT 1996
Article: 3418 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
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Subject: quote your sources please.
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 17:36:01 -0700
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Christopher A. Lee wrote:
> 
> In article <4u3fhu$orm@news.enter.net> wf3h@enter.net (bob puharic) writes:
> >
> >snipped out the crap....
> >
> >what creationists fail to point out is that hoyle is not a
> >creationist. he is a scientist. the 2 are mutually exclusive.
> 
> And his associate Chandra Wickramasinghe was actually called as a witness by
> the creationists in one of the equal time lawsuits (Arkansas?). They were
> too stupid to realise that although H&W's views in certain areas were
> rather unorthodox that they were still mainstream scientists.
> 
> I suppose this was due to creationist binary thinking.
> 
> So they were taken by surprise when their supposed star witness denounced
> creationism as claptrap!

and baloney--Hoyle is also an Evolutionist.  As for defining 
Evolutionists as Scientists and excluding Creationists from the 
definition you are attempting to define your opposition out of existence, 
a logical fallacy that does not hold up.  You Want the names of dozens of 
fine scientists who are also creationist contact ICR in Santee, 
California and they can supply you with dozens or men engage in all areas 
of the sciences who are creationists.  
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  8 10:29:16 PDT 1996
Article: 3419 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.christnet,alt.christnet.bible,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,talk.religion.misc
Subject: for your consideration
Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 17:52:03 -0700
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Wen-King Su wrote:
> =

> In a previous article bud  writes:
> =

> >Check out your history books about the black plague and other outbreaks
>  >of victims.  Actually millions and millions died in the world during
>  >to be burned to avoid further infestation.  This explanation has been
>  >"war criminals".  According to some, starvation, disease and typhus was
>  >It has also been pointe out that the allied bombings and raids on
>  >get any food to these camps.  Sure it had to be done, but this also can
>  >(or 20,000!) bodies burned does not add up to 6 million.
> =

>  =

> Why is that?  It is bigotry to round up the Jews and have them killed by
> the thousands daily whether it was by the use of gas chamber or by causin=
g
> starvation and disease.  How does a stand against it makes one a bigot?
> Why is it anti-Christian?  Where in God's teaching that it is OK to treat=

> any group of people this way?  There weren't thousands of Germans dying
> from starvation and disease any day during the war.  What is the
> justification for arranging to have a much smaller population die at such=

> a high rate?  That the Nazi planners were too stupid to know this might
> hapen?

Actually, Wen, it's not.  I was just being sarcastic and trying to point =

out that too many people in these newsgroups call anybody who disagrees =

with them about minorities or majorities is called a "bigot' or a Naze or =

whatever.  So, I'm going to do the same to them... As for your analysis, =

there are some stories that are true, and others that are exaggerations =

that become more embellished as the years go by and some groups find =

millions of dollars of profit in the business of this situation.  =

Remember, Wen, that it is the victors who write the majority of the =

history books.  However, the indisputable fact is that many other find =

historians have presented a lot of good reasons to question lots of the =

"stories" coming out of the war.  I suggest you read the material From =

this site as a starter:  And Please, don't just resort to calling these =

people "bigots" like so many of their opponents attempt to do.  This is =

an attempt to skirt over the issue, rather than addressing it...  here it =

is for your consideration:

Adelaide Institute - The final intellectual adventure
THE FINAL INTELLECTUAL ADVENTURE OF THE 20TH CENTURY
We are a group of individuals who are looking at the Jewish-Nazi =

Holocaust, in particular we are investigating the allegation that Germans =

systematically killed six million Jews, four million alone at the =

Auschwitz concentration camp. In our investigations we refuse to be =

intimidated by anyone because we believe that the first step in any =

murder investigation is to forensically test the alleged murder weapon. =

In the Auschwitz murder case, certain individuals wish to prevent us from =

focusing upon such an investigation.
The latest version of how the Germans gassed millions of Jews at =

Auschwitz is propagated by Professor Deborah Lipstadt of Emory University =

in the U.S.A. who claims that mortuaries were converted into homicidal =

gas chambers. Proof of this is apparently found in so-called "conversion =

plans". We have requested of Professor Lipstadt and of the Holocaust =

Museum, Washington, to provide us with copies of such conversion plans.  =

We are still waiting for them to provide us with these plans.
In the meantime we have noted the original four million Auschwitz death =

figure has been reduced by Jean Claude Pressac to a maximum of 800,000. =

This in itself is good news because it means that around 3.2 million =

people never died at Auschwitz - a cause for celebration.
We are worried about the fact that to date it has been impossible to =

reconstruct a homicidal gas chamber. Even the Holocaust Museum in =

Washington informed us that it could not bring one across from Europe =

because there are none available. This is like a space museum without a =

rocket or the Vatican without a Crucifix. We are justifiably sceptical =

about the homicidal gas chamber claims.
We reject outright that a questioning of the alleged homicidal gas =

chamber story constitutes "hate talk", is "anti-Semitic", "racist"  or =

even "neo-Nazi" activity.

The director of the Adelaide Institute, Dr Fredrick Töben, puts it =

thus:
"If I offend anybody because I show poor taste in my sometime blunt and =

honest questioning, then I apologise. However, if I offend because I am =

politically incorrect by asking uncomfortable questions, then I claim it =

as my right, under the free speech principle, to say these things."
We at the Adelaide Institute also focus on the Jewish-Bolshevik
Holocaust, a matter which Australian author Helen Demidenko-Darville has =

raised in her book The Hand That Signed The Paper. The controversy =

generated by this novel still continues.
Adelaide Institute associate, Mr David Brockschmidt, sums up the essence =

of Demidenko-Darville's 'crime' in writing this book:

"The merit of Helen Demidenko-Darville's novel - and hidden agenda of the =

anti-Demidenko affair - is that she has revealed a basic historical fact, =

viz, that Lenin's henchman, Trotzky (Bronstein) and Stalin's henchman, =

Kaganovich, were  Jewish mass murderers. This historical fact clearly =

shows that Jews are not always victims in history, but also murderers. =

Australia's  mass media has failed to publicise this important fact. =

Why?"

David Brockschmidt displays his parents' medal received from the West =

German government for saving Jews during World War II. The Brockschmidt =

family was also honoured by the Israeli Government and a tree in their =

memory has been planted in the Avenue of the Righteous Gentiles, =

Jerusalem, Israel.
David's father was also instrumental in providing Oskar Schindler with =

the trucks which transported the Schindler Jews from Poland to =

Czechoslovakia. Steven Spielberg, who knew the vital role Brockschmidt =

played in this operation failed to give credit to David's father. Why?
These two historical issues - the Jewish-Bolshevik Holocaust and the =

Nazi-Jewish Holocaust - are worthy subjects for an intellectual enquiry. =

We are aware of the fact that to venture forth in to such an enquiry can =

be dangerous.
Professor Robert Faurisson (France), Mr David Irving (England), Dr =

Wilhelm Stäglich, Professor Udo Walendy, Messrs Günter Deckert, =

Germar Rudolf, Mr Thies Christopherson, Pastor Manfred Junger (Germany), =

Mr Ditlieb Felderer (Sweden), Mr Hans Schmidt (U.S.A.), and Mr Ernst =

Zündel (Canada) are people who have suffered physically, mentally and =

materially as a result of their search for truth in history. The enemies =

of freedom of speech will use physical and legal violence - persecution =

through prosecution - to stifle debate on these contentious historical =

issues. There is a tremendous pressure placed on people who dare touch =

these taboo subjects. All too often the first thing that snaps is the =

family unit, followed by professional and social ostracism.
So, be warned - this final intellectual journey is not for the =

faint-hearted. If you dare to seek the truth, in particular about the =

alleged homicidal gassings, then you will be smeared, libelled and =

defamed by those who are intellectual midgets but materialistic giants.
If you are mentally strong enough to seek the truth of the matter, then =

force an open debate. Don't get side tracked by details and always =

refocus on the basics. Too many individuals drown in a sea of =

particulars.
People who claim that during World War II, the Germans gassed millions of =

Jews are levelling three allegations at the Germans:
   1.    The Germans planned the construction of huge chemical slaughter =

houses;
   2.    The Germans constructed these huge chemical slaughterhouses =

during the middle of World War II; and
   3.    The German used these huge slaughterhouses to exterminate =

millions of Jews.

Any normal person familiar with bureaucratic red tape will now ask:
What proof is there to back up these claims? Firstly, where are the plans =

of this enterprise? Secondly, where is the budget needed to finance the =

massive enterprise? Finally, it is inconceivable that such a massive =

undertaking would get past first base without an executive order. To =

date, we have been led to believe that "a wink and a nudge" began the =

alleged extermination project.
We at Adelaide Institute believe that those who level the homicidal =

gassing allegations at the Germans owe it to the world to come up with =

irrefutable evidence that this happened.
Instead, these defamers and libellers of the Germans use legal means to =

stifle debate on the topic. They claim that anyone who asks questions is =

engaging in "hate-talk", is "anti-Semeitic" is a "racist", even a =

"neo-Nazi".
If that doesn't work,then physical violence is used to silence those who =

want to know the truth.
So, come on board if you have the courage to look for truth. We naturally =

maintain that should - after fifty years- proof of the homicidal gassings =

be forthcoming, we shall gladly publicise this as well. To date, there =

has been no proof offered to the world. Robert Faurisson sums it up well: =

"No holes, no Holocaust!"
We are not "holocaust deniers". We proudly proclaim that to date there is =

no evidence that millions of people were killed in homicidal gas =

chambers. That is good news all round. Why would anyone find this =

offensive? We are celebrating the living who were thought dead. How can =

this be an offence - unless it offends those who have their snout in the =

trough which Jewish academic, Dr Frank Knopfelmacher called, "the =

Holocaust racket".
If there is to be a mission statement from Adelaide Institute, then it is =

best summed up in a letter which appeared in The Australian on 22 =

February, 1996. Written by John Buchner of Camden of NSW, nine days =

before the 2nd March federal election:
OPEN SEASON ON GERMANS
Phillip Adams referred in a recent column of Review, 13 - 14 January =

1996, to a number of foreign situations, which are dealt with in a =

jocular fashion, but he refers to the German people in a contemporary =

sense as "Nazi	swine". Many people from a German background have settled =

in Australia and made a significant contribution to it, including serving =

in its armed forces against the Nazi regime. Their memory is vilified by =

Mr Adams' reference.
During my school years here, I endured continual vilification because of =

my German origins and countless "Hitler Salutes".
However, my complaint to you is not motivated by a chip on the shoulder =

because of these events. Like most Australians, I can take it and abhor =

the treatment other national groups have received.
My concern is that there seems to be a perpetual open season on all =

Germans, as though all Germans must forever bear the guilt and shame of =

the Nazi regime.
I can bear references to "Nazi Swine", albeit without amusement. But what =

of my children? Are my children to be forever classed "Nazi Swine" in =

this country?
		  John Buchner
		  Camden, NSW

Interestingly, a climate of political correctness pervaded the run-up =

period to the 2nd of March federal elections, with Liberal and National =

candidates coming in for some sharp rebukes from their Labor colleagues =

over publicly-made alleged racist statements. For example, there  was Bob =

Katter who lashed out at "enviro-Nazis", "femi-Nazis" and "slant-eyed =

ideologues". Only the latter statement created an uproar. The "Nazi" word =

has been used by a number of politicians from all parties because it =

still has a sting to it. After all, everything done by the Germans prior =

to and after World War II is eclipsed by what is alleged to have happened =

at Auschwitz concentration camp. The argument is always "from Mozart, =

Beethoven and Wagner to the homicidal gas chambers at Auschwitz". That's =

the card pulled out by anyone who is faced with competition from a =

German-born Australian or Australian of German descent.
It is from this basis that we take it as our right to challenge the taboo =

topic's veracity - did the Germans operate homicidal gas chambers at =

Auschwitz? It is too cheap for us to decry our work as that of =

"hate-mongers", "anti-Semites","racists" or "neo-Nazis". Let us repeat: =

we are not deniers of the Jewish-Nazi Holocaust. We affirm that to date =

there is no proof that millions of people were gassed by Germans in =

homicidal gas chambers. Dare you join us in this final intellectual =

adventure of the 20th Century?

Adelaide Institute Newsletters
No. 37 - April 1996      Available soon
No. 36 - March 1996      Available soon
No. 35 - February 1996   Available soon
No. 34 - January 1996    Available soon
No. 33 - December 1995   Available soon

What is available
=95	Fredrick Töben : Political Correctness In Our Schools - Paper =

presented at the National Conference Of The Australian College of =

Education: "Tomorrow's Teachers", Adelaide, 2-6 October 1995.
ISBN 0646 26799X.
=95	Fredrick Töben (Compiler): Political Correctness Is No Joke - =

The Leuchter Case, 1995. ISBN 0 646 24194 X.
=95	David Brockschmidt: Schindler's List, Bridging the Gap between =

Political Correctness and Historical Correctness, 1995, Video.
=95	Fredrick Töben: Adelaide War Crimes Trials, 1995, Video.
=95	David Irving - Fighting Back - Confronting Deborah Lipstadt, 11 =

November 1994. Video.

Interesting Revisionist Sites
Zündelsite (Canada - English/French/German)
Greg Raven - Institute for Historical Review
(USA - English)

Bradley Smith - Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust (CODOH)
(USA - English/French)
Ahmed Rami - Radio Islam
(Sweden - English, French, German, Norwegian, Swedish)
Interesting Exterminationist Sites
Ken McVay - The Nizkor Project (Canada - English)
Simon Wiesenthal Centre (USA - Multilingual)
UPDATES
The Faurisson Forum
The Irving Interlude
The Zündel Site
A Book Boycott
Historical Flashback - Zyklon B
A discussion on Radio National
A question addressed to some philosophers

Please feel free to contact us at;
 Adelaide Institute
 PO Box 3300
 Norwood
 SA 5067

 Ph.  61 8 331 0808
 Fax. 61 8 332 2908

Or email Fredrick Töben for more information or comments.



 "The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  8 10:29:17 PDT 1996
Article: 3473 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet,theology
Subject: Fund of faith pt 3
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 08:05:03 -0700
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FUNDAMENTALS OF THE FAITH LESSON #3 "WHAT IS THE BIBLE?" (continued)

In this study it is important to have a better understanding of what we 
mean when we say that God has "revealed" Himself to us. "Revelation" is 
truth unveiled. Theologians generally agree that God has revealed Himself 
in two ways: (1) "General Revelation" and (2) "Specific Revelation." The 
Bible mentions both of these.

GENERAL REVELATION (God "indirectly" revealing Himself to man)

Psalm 19:1-6 1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim 
the work of his hands.  2 Day after day they pour forth speech; night 
after night they display knowledge.  3 There is no speech or language 
where their voice is not heard.  4 Their voice goes out into all the 
earth, their words to the ends of the world. In the heavens he has 
pitched a tent for the sun, 5 which is like a bridegroom coming forth 
>from  his pavilion, like a champion rejoicing to run his course.  6 It 
rises at one end of the heavens and makes its circuit to the other; 
nothing is hidden from its heat.  (NIV)

Romans 1:19-23 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, 
because God has made it plain to them.  20 For since the creation of the 
world God's invisible qualities-- his eternal power and divine nature-- 
have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that 
men are without excuse.  21 For although they knew God, they neither 
glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became 
futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.  22 Although they claimed 
to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal 
God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and 
reptiles.  (NIV)

After carefully reading the above verses answer this question: "God has 
revealed Himself to man in what way?  
_____________________________________

(ANSWER: Through His creation).

Romans 2:14-16 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by 
nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even 
though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements 
of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing 
witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 
This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through 
Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.  (NIV)

The above verses also suggest that God has revealed Himself in another 
way. What way is that?  _______________________________________________

(ANSWER; through our conscience)

Acts 14:15-17 15 "Men, why are you doing this? We too are only men, human 
like you. We are bringing you good news, telling you to turn from these 
worthless things to the living God, who made heaven and earth and sea and 
everything in them.  16 In the past, he let all nations go their own way. 
 17 Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness 
by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides 
you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy." (NIV)

The above verses say that God left a "witness" of Himself. What is it? 
_________________________________________________________________ 
_________________________________________________________________

(ANSWER: God's "common grace" such as food, rain, etc. Also in this area 
would be God's providence and His control over historical events)

Acts 17:26-28 26 From one man he made every nation of men, that they 
should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them 
and the exact places where they should live.  27 God did this so that men 
would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is 
not far from each one of us.  28 `For in him we live and move and have 
our being.' As some of your own poets have said, `We are his offspring.' 
(NIV)

According to the above verses how far away is God? 
___________________________________________________________

answer: Not far from anyone who seeks Him)

Acts 10:1-5 1 At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in 
what was known as the Italian Regiment.  2 He and all his family were 
devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to 
God regularly. 3 One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. 
He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, "Cornelius!" 
4 Cornelius stared at him in fear. "What is it, Lord?" he asked.  The 
angel answered, "Your prayers and gifts to the poor have come up as a 
memorial offering before God.  5 Now send men to Joppa to bring back a 
man named Simon who is called Peter. (NIV)

Acts 10:23-34 23 Then Peter invited the men into the house to be his 
guests. The next day Peter started out with them, and some of the 
brothers from Joppa went along.  24 The following day he arrived in 
Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them and had called together his 
relatives and close friends.  25 As Peter entered the house, Cornelius 
met him and fell at his feet in reverence. 26 But Peter made him get up. 
"Stand up," he said, "I am only a man myself." 27 Talking with him, Peter 
went inside and found a large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: 
"You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate 
with a Gentile or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call 
any man impure or unclean.  29 So when I was sent for, I came without 
raising any objection.  May I ask why you sent for me?" 30 Cornelius 
answered: "Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three 
in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me 31 
and said, `Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts 
to the poor. 32 Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a 
guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.' 33 So I 
sent for you immediately, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all 
here in the presence of God to listen to everything the Lord has 
commanded you to tell us." 34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize 
how true it is that God does not show favoritism (NIV)

Read the above verses and answer this question: "What will God do for 
anyone who "truly" seeks him? (don't get too complicated, just give it 
some sincere thought).

(ANSWER: God will hear him and "maybe" even answer his prayer).


SPECIFIC REVELATION (God "directly" revealing Himself to mankind)

Exodus 32:16 The tablets were the work of God; the writing was the 
writing of God, engraved on the tablets. (NIV)

>From  the above verse: How is God revealing Himself? _________________

(ANSWER: In writing)

Exodus 33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks 
with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide 
Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent.  (NIV)

(From the above verse: How is God revealing Himself? __________________

(ANSWER; By speaking)

Ezek 1:1 In the thirtieth year, in the fourth month on the fifth day, 
while I was among the exiles by the Kebar River, the heavens were opened 
and I saw visions of God.  (NIV)

In the above verse How is God revealing Himself? ____________________

(ANSWER: Through men)

Daniel 2:19 During the night the mystery was revealed to Daniel in a 
vision. Then Daniel praised the God of heaven (NIV)

In the above verse God reveals Himself by ___________________________

(ANSWER: visions and dreams)

Heb 1:1-2 1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets 
at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken 
to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom 
he made the universe.  (NIV)

>From  the above verses answer this question: "How has God revealed Himself 
to mankind in the past?
1._______________________   2.____________________________

(ANSWER: 1. Through the Prophets. 2. Through the Lord Jesus Christ.)

2 Peter 1:20-21 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of 
Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.  21 For 
prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God 
as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (NIV)

>From  the above verse How did God reveal Himself to us? 
________________________________________________________

(ANSWER: Through His Holy Spirit)

2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for 
teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that 
the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (NIV)

>From  the above verses what other reasons are there for God giving us His 
word? 1.______________________ 2.__________________ 
3._______________________________ 4. ____________________________

(ANSWER: 1. teach us  2. Reprove (correct us)  3. train us in 
righteousness 4. equip us for good works.

The Bible also says that the Scriptures are God's revealed Word and is 
"inspired" by Him. It is beneficial to have a better understanding of 
what we mean when we say the Bible is "inspired" by God.

INSPIRATION

2 Peter 1:20-21 20 Above all, you must understand that no prophecy of 
Scripture came about by the prophet's own interpretation.  21 For 
prophecy never had its origin in the will of man, but men spoke from God 
as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit. (NIV)

The above verses describe "how" the Bible was written. According to this 
verse, who were the authors of the Bible? 1.__________________ and 
2.__________________________________.

(ANSWER: 1. Men and  2. the Holy Spirit of God.)

The Greek word for "moved by" means "being carried along." Therefore, the 
phrase "Men moved by the Holy Spirit could best be understood as follows: 
"Human men was used as a vehicle through which God spoke His Word. The 
Holy Spirit so supervised human authors, that through their individual 
personalities and culture they composed and recorded God's Word without 
error in the original manuscripts.

OBJECTION! OBJECTION! Aha! There you go! You don't have the "original 
manuscripts", so how then can you rely on the Bible?

This is another objection Christians are often confronted with.  Included 
in these lessons there is a section entitled "IS THE BIBLE RELIABLE" 
regarding this complex matter. It is not within the feasible time and 
purpose of this study to examine in detail this extensive matter often 
referred to as "textual criticism." In that area this question has been 
more than adequately answered by qualified scholars. You can, if you 
wish, pursue this avenue of study independently.

Briefly, let us say this: While it is true we do not have the original 
manuscripts; and, no copy or translations should be considered "inspired" 
as described before... Still, for all intents and purposes with today's 
vast number of manuscripts available, the science of textual criticism 
can render us an extremely accurate (99%+) representation. Therefore, be 
assured, when you are reading the Bible you are reading the inspired Word 
of God.

THE AUTHORITY OF THE SCRIPTURES -- THE OLD TESTAMENT

It is possible to cite many reasons for the Old Testament being God's 
Word, but the strongest argument comes from the Lord Jesus Christ 
Himself. As God incarnate, Jesus spoke with final authority. His 
testimony about the Old Testament is loud and clear.

(a) John 10:35 If he called them `gods,' to whom the word of God came-- 
and the Scripture cannot be broken-- (NIV)

Here, Jesus is saying that the Scripture _____________________________

(ANSWER: cannot be broken and it is the Word of God)

(b) Matt 15:3 Jesus replied, "And why do you break the command of God for 
the sake of your tradition? (NIV)

Here Jesus refers to the Scriptures as___________________________

(ANSWER: the commands of God)

(c) Matt 15:6 he is not to `honor his father' with it. Thus you nullify 
the word of God for the sake of your tradition.  (NIV)

Here Jesus refers to the Scripture as ______________________

(ANSWER: the Word of God)

(d) Matt 5:18 I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not 
the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means 
disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.  (NIV)

In this verse jesus say what about the Scriptures? 
________________________________________________________________________
(ANSWER: not even a jot or tittle shall pass away from the Scriptures)

(e) Luke 17:29 But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down 
>from  heaven and destroyed them all. (NIV)

In this verse we see the Lord confirming the historicity of what event? 
________________________________________________________________________
(ANSWER: the account of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and also of 
the death of Lot's wife.)

(f) Luke 11:51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was 
killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this 
generation will be held responsible for it all.  (NIV)

In this verse Jesus confirms? _______________________________________

(ANSWER: the account of Cain and Abel)

(g) Mark 12:26 Now about the dead rising-- have you not read in the book 
of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, `I am the God 
of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob'?  (NIV)

Here Jesus confirms _________________________________

(ANSWER: the calling of Moses)

(h) Matt 11:22 But I tell you, it will be more bearable for Tyre and 
Sidon on the day of judgment than for you.  (NIV)

Jesus confirms ____________________________________________

(ANSWER: the judgement of Tyre and Sidon)

(i) Matt 19:8-9 8 Jesus replied, "Moses permitted you to divorce your 
wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the 
beginning.  9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for 
marital unfaithfulness, and marries another woman commits adultery." 
(NIV)

Jesus confirms 
___________________________________________________________

(ANSWER: that Moses wrote the first five books of the Bible)

(j) Matt 19:1-6 1 When Jesus had finished saying these things, he left 
Galilee and went into the region of Judea to the other side of the 
Jordan.  2 Large crowds followed him, and he healed them there.  3 Some 
Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, "Is it lawful for a man to 
divorce his wife for any and every reason?" 4 "Haven't you read," he 
replied, "that at the beginning the Creator `made them male and female,' 
5 and said, `For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and 
be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'?  6 So they are 
no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man 
not separate." (NIV)

Jesus confirms______________________________________________

(ANSWER: the account of Adam and Eve)

(k) Matt 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming 
of the Son of Man. (NIV)

Jesus confirms__________________________________________

(ANSWER: Noah and the flood)

OVER AND OVER AGAIN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST CONFIRMED THE HISTORICITY OF 
THE OLD TESTAMENT AS WELL AS IT'S BEING THE WORD OF GOD!

THE NEW TESTAMENT

JOHN 16:13 But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you 
into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he 
hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.  (NIV)

In this verse Jesus is telling His disciples that the Holy Spirit will do 
what? 1._______________________________________
2______________________________________________

(ANSWER: 1. guide them into all truth  2. tell them what is to come in 
the future.)

Matthew 10:2-4 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon 
(who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and 
his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax 
collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and 
Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him.  (NIV)

Romans 1:1 Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle and 
set apart for the gospel of God-- (NIV)

1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers 
in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and 
Bithynia, (NIV)

>From  the above verses, what group of men wrote the majority of the New 
Testament? ___________________________________

(ANSWER: The Apostles)

The others who wrote Scripture spent time with the Apostles, such as 
Luke, Mark, James, Jude.

Before closing out this lesson it is important to point out that there 
have been many objections brought against the claims of the Bible. If 
there are any that concern you, they you are encouraged to investigate 
the fascinating area commonly called "Christian Apologetics." However, 
this is a vast subject and scholars and theologians have addressed these 
matters with powerful, convincing evidences.

God's Word will stand up majestically under an "honest" investigation of 
the evidences.

HOW SHOULD WE INTERPRET THE BIBLE?

While some people may chose to view the Bible as an allegory, 
fundamentalists feel that a literal interpretation is the only 
interpretation that does justice to the facts. There are several reasons 
for this:
	(a) The Bible claims to be the Word of God. Over and over it has 
phrases like 'The Word of the Lord cam unto Moses" or, Thus saith the 
Lord" etc. 
	(b) When people spoke, it was in real life situations, not some 
"never-never" land. The Bible views itself as a non-fiction book.
	(c) When the writers cite other persons or events in Scripture, 
they cite them as real, not imaginary or allegorical. (Examples can be 
found in Matthew 12:39, where Jesus referred to His resurrection. The 
writer of Hebrews cites many Old Testament men and women of faith as 
examples of believers. Nowhere is the story of Abraham or Samson looked 
at in any other way other than factual. Thus, the Bible itself gives 
testimony that it should be taken at face value. Scripture interprets 
Scripture -- literally!
	(d) The nature of God, as revealed in the Bible, makes it clear 
that He has the ability to communicate with people. Since God created 
mankind for the purpose of establishing a relationship, it naturally 
follows that God would use understandable methods.
	(e) There is no "double-talk or weasel-wording in Scripture. The 
message is clear and God expects mankind to act responsibly on what He 
has revealed. The excuse that so many people use (which is nearly always 
a "smoke screen" to cover up their other problems) that the Bible can be 
understood in so many ways and that everyone has his own interpretation 
JUST IS NOT TRUE... The Bible itself makes this issue very clear: For 
instance, John 3:37: "He who believes in the son has eternal life; but he 
who does not obey the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides 
on him."

DOES THIS MEAN WE SHOULD INTERPRET EVERYTHING IN THE BIBLE LITERALLY?

No.  Saying that we should take the Bible literally does not mean that 
figurative language cannot be found in the Bible. However, to interpret 
figuratively you must find a good reason in the passage to justify doing 
this. For example: "Martin Luther was like a bull in a china shop." 
Martin Luther was a theologian--a man--not 'literally' a "bull." This is 
a clear example of a figure of speech used to describe Martin Luther.

THEN HOW DO WE JUDGE WHEN AND WHEN NOT TO INTERPRET SCRIPTURE IN SUCH A 
MANNER?

A good rule of interpretation is "If the literal sense makes sense, seek 
no other sense lest you come up with nonsense!" The words of a given text 
should be interpreted literally if possible. If not possible, one should 
move to figurative language.

THAT'S TOUGH! IT REALLY LEAVES THE DOOR OPEN TO LOTS OF ERRORS!
Admittedly, it's not easy, but there are usually many clues in the 
context of the Scripture itself. For example, when the book of Revelation 
speaks of the dragon (Rev 12:9), the dragon is defined (Satan). Knowing 
the culture will help, and the more you know about the language and times 
and thoughts of the historical period, the better chance you have of 
determining how to interpret a given passage.

YOU'VE GOT TO BE WILLING TO STUDY AND APPLY YOURSELF...!

HERE ARE A FEW THINGS TO HELP YOU GET STARTED (examples of figurative 
language)

METAPHOR: "A comparison by direct statement"
SIMILE:   "A comparison by use of the words "like" or "as"
HYPERBOLE: "An exaggeration for emphasis"
ANTHROPOMORPHISM: "A method of attributing to God human characteristics 
or experiences."

John 15:1 is a clear example of_________________________

	(answer: a metaphor)

Exo: 24:17 is a clear example of_____________________________

	(answer: a simile)

John 21:25 is a clear example of__________________________

	(answer: a hyperbole)

Genesis 6:6 is a clear example of_________________________

	(answer: an Anthropomorphism)

Remember this again... Figurative language does have a place in 
Scripture, but only when certain factors indicate that the passage in 
question is not to be interpreted literally.

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  8 10:29:18 PDT 1996
Article: 3479 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
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Subject: definition of "fundamentalist"
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 08:31:01 -0700
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Webster's definition of "Fundamentalist", in case there is any dispute at 
to it's meaning.  If you can find a dictionary that includes belief in 
this so-called "holocaust" within that definition, I'd like a copy or a 
place where I can check it out for myself.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  8 10:29:19 PDT 1996
Article: 3482 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
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Subject: avoid the accusations, stick to facts
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 08:13:19 -0700
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Dave Humrick wrote:
> 
> In article <32093671.1191@mail.gte.net> bud, budwrite@mail.gte.net
> writes:
> >
> >and baloney--Hoyle is also an Evolutionist.  As for defining
> >Evolutionists as Scientists and excluding Creationists from the
> >definition you are attempting to define your opposition out of
> > existence, a logical fallacy that does not hold up.
> 
> Balls. Scientists "Do" science. Creationists, or more accurately
> "scientific creationists" - the proper name for young earth,
> religious fundamentalists - are ideologically constrained from
> "doing" science in any area that conflicts with their dogma.
> 
>   You Want the names of dozens of
> >fine scientists who are also creationist contact ICR in Santee,
> >California and they can supply you with dozens or men engage in all 
>areas of the sciences who are creationists.
> 
> Typical. Proof by "go look it up if you don't believe me." Well,
> unfortunately for you, I have. Using The Institute of Creation
> Research as a source for names of creation scientists is a little
> like using NAMBLA as a source for the names of baby sitters.
> 
> All ICR staff and trustees must annually sign a document promising
> to believe the proscribed religiously correct doctrine. What real
> scientist would do this? Here: the actual document the "scientists"
> of the ICR must obey, a few excerpts from TENETS OF SCIENTIFIC
> CREATIONISM and  TENETS OF BIBLICAL CREATIONISM:
> 
>  1) The physical universe .. was supernaturally created by a
> transcendent
>  personal Creator who alone existed from eternity.
> 
> 2) The phenomenon of biological life did not develop by natural
>  processes from inanimate systems but was specially and
>  supernaturally created by the Creator.
> 
>  3) Each of the major kinds of plants and animals was created
>  functionally complete for the beginning and did not evolve from
>  some other kind of organism.
> 
>  4) The first human beings did not evolve from an animal ancestry,
>  but were specially created in fully human form from the start.
> ---
>  3) All things in the universe were created and made by God in the
>  six literal days of creation week described in Genesis 1:1-2:3, and
>  confirmed in Exodus 20:8-11. The creation record is factual,
>  historical, and perspicuous; thus all theories of origins or
>  development which involve evolution in any form are false.
> 
>  4) The first human beings, Adam and Eve, were specially created by
>  God, and all other men and women are their descendants.
> 
> 5) The Biblical record of primeval earth history in Genesis 1-11
>  is fully historical and perspicuous, including the creation and
>  fall of man, the curse on the creation and its subjection to the
>  bondage of decay, the promised Redeemer, the worldwide cataclysmic
>  deluge in the days of Noah, the post-diluvian renewal of man's
>  commission to subdue the earth (now augmented by the institution of
>  human government) and the origin of nations and languages at the
>  tower of Babel.
> ----
> 
> So tell me how anyone could pretend to be a scientist after
> promising not to believe ANYTHING that conflicts with this blatant
> religious dogma?
> 
> Anyone who wants the entire ICR oath send e-mail.

There are many teachers and scientists who have been made to promise they 
will NOT teach Creationism and SWEAR TO TEACH ONLY EVOLUTION in 
universities all over the nation.  Does this make them less of a 
scientist?  This has nothing to do with the evidence presented -- 
Evolutionists themselves admitting to the problems with their 
"theories."  You have resorted to attacking the men involved, not the 
issue or the evidence.  If You REALLY want proof that is also available 
>from  the very educated and highly qualified people you so easily defame 
without cause other than your obvious dislike of the though of their 
being a God, etc.  Since you attack the people, I will take a liberty 
here: Like many such people, I would suspect, but admittedly cannot know 
for certain, your problem with Creation is NOT the evidence, but a moral 
problem.  
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  8 10:29:20 PDT 1996
Article: 3483 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
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Subject: a "fundamentalists" reply
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 08:27:42 -0700
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John Mitchell wrote:
> 
> Scott Maxwell wrote:
> >
> > > 1. "Jews are evil"(sic) every Christian Denomination has at its core a
> > >    denunciation of Jews as having caused Jesus' death.
> >
> >         Uh huh, and just which chapter of the bible says this?  (This is
> > especially untue for Fundimentalists who are very Pro-Isreal/Judeism.

I do not support present-day Isreal nor Judaism.  I believe most 
Christians today are being deceived into believing the lies of uninformed 
teachers, tv preachers and a very biased secular media.

> >
> 
> Fundamentalists support Israel, as otherwise they may difficulty going to
> Jerusalem.
> 
> > > 2. Order is a virtue (need no explanation there)
> >
> >         Right, that is one of the original Ten Virtues.  Order, Cleanliness,
> > and Flossing were truncated in the Middle Ages...
> >
> > > 3. Charity is highly desirable (the Nazis had more social programs than
> > >    any other government until the 1960s). Hitler promoted Charity as a
> > >    means of social coherence, just as all christians do.

Your point, please?  Does this mean Christians and Hitler or the same, 
etc.  I'm rather fed up with that analogy.  Marx was a Jew.  Are all Jews 
Communists?  Also, many Jews in Russian revolution are guilty of 
murdering millions of Christians and Russian civilians.  Does 
this then make all Jews murderers and persecutors?
 >
> >         OK, This is the same logic that says that Hitler is the true founding
> > father of Isreal...
> 
> But, if not for Hitler, there would have been no need for the existence
> of Israel!

Huh?  They started migrating there after WW 1, not after WW 2.  Check out 
the Balfour declaration.

> 
> >
> > > 4. Killing for your beliefs is justifiable (just lookto history for the proof).
> >
> >         I don't think that this is an exclusive to Catholicism or Chrstianity
> > in general (just look to history for proof).
> >
> > > So, even if the Pope didn't pull the trigger, he sure held the gun...

The Church of Rome is a chameleon.  it changes in accordance with its 
locale.  Today the Pope decries the so-called Holocaust (much of which is 
an exaggeration, but some of which is tragically true) and this Pope 
upholds just about whatever the popular opinion will support about the 
war, despite any real evidence to the contrary.

> >
> >         Yep, a complicated issue of the Second World War as described by a
> > complete idiot.

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)

Nixon is absolutely right!


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  8 10:29:21 PDT 1996
Article: 3504 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet.theology
Subject: Apologetic Pt 3
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 08:17:28 -0700
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Number three: IS CHRISTIANITY WORTHY OF OUR FAITH?

It is very important to remember that the Christian Faith is based on a 
narrative. Over and over again the writers of the New Testament emphasize 
the historicity of the Gospel. Therefore, the Christian faith IS NOT 
merely based on some philosophy, but on a narrative. Here's an example 
>from  Luke. (Acts 1:3) "After his suffering, he showed himself to these 
men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to 
them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God" 
(NIV).

At this point it is also important for us to remember that Christian 
Apologetics involves a systematic, scientific defense of the Christian 
faith against the intellectual attacks of its enemies. These are 
evidences that give us positive objective reasons for believing the Bible 
is a unique, inspired, inerrant revelation from God and that Jesus Christ 
is the cosmic God, coming into our world on a wonderful redemptive 
mission--God in human form. That's what John tells us: (John 1:1-3) 1 "In 
the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was 
God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were 
made; without him nothing was made that has been made."(NIV). (John 
1:14)"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen 
his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full 
of grace and truth"(NIV). (John 14:9) Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, 
Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has 
seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, `Show us the 
Father?'"(NIV).

Knowing we exist, it is natural to ask, "How did I come to be?" "Where 
Did I come from?" "Where Am I going?" Are you merely a machine, 
chemically and psychologically determined? Can the universe and man be 
explained as a simple product of an equation which adds an impersonal 
factor plus time plus chance (such as evolution); or--to put it another 
way--nobody X nothing = everything?

These are big questions... Yet, if there is a God who cares, obviously He 
could settle the great questions concerning life, death, and man's 
destiny. With His knowledge and control of the future God could tell us 
about this...if He chose to do so.

THE BIBLE CLAIMS TO GIVE US SUCH INFORMATION

The Bible claims to be from God, giving us this information which most 
people yearn for, and in the form of a written revelation to
mankind. The Bible means "the book" and within that book a further 
revelation of God Himself is declared in the person of Jesus Christ. 
Jesus is the basic theme of the Bible from the opening verses of Genesis 
to the closing Amen of John's Book of Revelation.

IS THIS THEREFORE A GOOD REASON TO BELIEVE?

No, not just because of some claim! We cannot believe unless belief is 
more rational than unbelief. We cannot truly believe at will arbitrarily 
or against reason, or against all the evidence that can be marshaled.

REMEMBER THIS! NO FAITH IS WORTHY OF ACCEPTANCE UNLESS IT IS JUSTIFIED BY 
THE SEVEREST USE OF REASON, BY THE TEST OF THE EVIDENCE.

DOES THIS THEN RULE OUT ALL FAITH'S, INCLUDING CHRISTIANITY?

No. Christians have powerful objective reasons for their faith. Sure, 
ultimate truth is often claimed by other religious systems, but under 
reasonable scrutiny they cannot be supported because these systems are 
based on subjective or metaphysical evidence. In other words, there is no 
objective history or facts to substantiate their doctrines because they 
are based on non-verifiable, subjective philosophy. The problem with this 
is that this makes one persons opinion as good as any other.

The important thing IS NOT our particular subjective experience or 
opinion (every religion or cult has its personal testimonies)... the real 
crucial question is TRUTH, and TRUTH requires a THOROUGH KNOWLEDGE OF ALL 
THE EVIDENCE!

ARE WE CLAIMING WE CAN "PROVE" GOD?

No. We covered this aspect in the previous lesson.

However, we can say that there is MORE EVIDENCE to substantiate God's 
existence than to deny it. After all, as we previously showed, proof 
takes place in the mind where evidence can be accepted or rejected by a 
persons will.

WHY DOES THIS QUESTION ABOUT GOD CAUSE SO MUCH CONTROVERSY?

There are many reasons. One of the main ones is that when a person begins 
to consider God it is hard not to become baffled, to grope in the dark. 
This is not surprising, since God is infinite and we are finite. God is 
altogether beyond human comprehension. The human mind, though effective 
when dealing with the empirical sciences, cannot quickly help us with 
God. There simply is not some ladder up the infinite mind of God, only a 
vast gulf. while you could show by a process of reasoning and science 
that the earth is a sphere, that three angles of a triangle are equal, 
etc., you can not apply this process to God (and some other matters 
pointed out in Lesson #2).

Even the Bible itself points this out. (Job 11:7) "Can you fathom the 
mysteries of God? Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?"(NIV). (1 Cor 
1:21)"For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not 
know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to 
save those who believe"(NIV). According to the Bible, God has wisely 
arranged the world, adjusted the process of human reasoning in such a way 
that if a man seeks to know God, he must do it in some other way than by 
pure reason. This also means that the man who insists on reasoned proof 
and refuses to believe until he has such proof will never come to the 
knowledge of God.

Actually, the amount of knowledge we gain by the provinces of the senses 
is very limited. For example, has everyone "seen" an atom, or a molecule, 
or electricity? Have you ever "seen" a thought, or a pain?

Actually, all abstract truth is founded on faith. Like it or not, 
literally all persons move and have their being by faith. You exercise 
faith every time you eat, drink water, drive a car, ride an airplane... 
Without hesitation you will not question but take the medicine the doctor 
gives you, submit to the surgery he recommends... We live continually by 
a strong reliance on things not within the province of the senses.

WHETHER YOU BELIEVE OR NOT, IT'S STILL A FAITH

Belief or unbelief in God are both founded on faith, differing mainly in 
leading to opposite conclusions. Still, from the Christian perspective, 
unbelief is--as far as we're concerned--tantamount to almost incredible 
faith since the evidence for the existence of God is so overwhelming that 
even the Psalmist says:(Ps 14:1 "The fool says in his heart,'There is no 
God'". (Ps 53:1) The fool says in his heart, "There is no God. They are 
corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good."(NIV). 
It is significant to note here that the Psalmist is not talking about an 
atheist, but about a man who know full well there is a God, but lives as 
though there were no God and no accountability to God for his actions.

WHY DO CHRISTIANS BELIEVE IN GOD?

There are probably several answers to this, but one of them is (or most 
certainly should be!) because they believe the Bible is divinely 
inspired, an inerrant revelation of God to man, and that the theme of 
that divine revelation is the majestic person of our Lord, Jesus Christ.

Yet this is not all. We have powerful, cogent, sensible, verifiable 
reasons for such a positive faith.

THEN THIS EVIDENCE WILL CONVINCE ANYONE?

Again, no. Even though the evidence is overwhelming, it will NEVER 
convince someone who does not want to believe. Unbelievers can always 
bring up another objection. There is an old adage that is certainly true: 
"A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." In 
lesson #2 we discussed some of the convincing evidences for the existence 
of God. There are many others. Such as:

THE FIRST AND SECOND LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS

The First and Second Law of Thermodynamics are "proven" scientific laws, 
not theory (such as evolution). The complete ceasing of creative activity 
in the universe has been recognized by modern science. This is commonly 
called the LAW OF THERMODYNAMICS. It is also commonly referred to as the 
LAW OF ENERGY CONSERVATION. This law is the most universal and certain of 
all scientific principles and it says conclusively that so far as 
empirical observation has shown, there is nothing now being created 
anywhere in the known universe. It is significant that the Bible agrees 
completely with this proven law. 

(Gen 2:2)"By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; 
so on the seventh day he rested from all his work." 

 (Eccl 1:9-10) 9 "What has been will be again, what has been done will be 
done again; there is nothing new under the sun." 10 "Is there anything of 
which one can say, 'Look! This is something new'? It was here already, 
long ago; it was here before our time."(NIV).

THE FIRST LAW

The first law also says that not only is nothing being created, but also 
that nothing is being destroyed (the principle of conservation). It is 
again startling that the Bible states: 
(Neh 9:6) "You alone are the LORD. You made the heavens, even the highest 
heavens, and all their starry host, the earth and all that is on it, the 
seas and all that is in them. You give life to everything, and the 
multitudes of heaven worship you."(NIV). 

(Isa 40:26) "Lift your eyes and look to the heavens: Who created all 
these? He who brings out the starry host one by one, and calls them each 
by name. Because of his great power and mighty strength, not one of them 
is missing."(NIV). 

(2 Pet 3:7) "By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved 
for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly 
men."(NIV). 

 (Col 1:17)"He is before all things, and in him all things hold 
together"(NIV). (Heb 1:3) "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the 
exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful 
word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the 
right hand of the Majesty in heaven."(NIV).

The Bible is confirming this fact of conservation.

THE SECOND LAW

This often is referred to as the LAW OF ENERGY DECAY (ENTROPY). This law 
governs all processes. THERE IS NO KNOW EXCEPTION.  It says that although 
mass-energy is not now being annihilated (destroyed) thus confirming the 
first law, it is nonetheless "running down" (dying) and becoming "less 
available" for the work of maintaining the processes of nature.

This means that the entire universe is in the process of dying entropy). 
The total mass-energy might still be there, but it will be in forms 
incapable of performing more work. All processes will cease and the 
universe will be "dead." This second law is sometimes referred to as 
"time's arrow" and this "arrow" always is pointing downwards to an 
eventual end.

SO WHAT?!

(A) The Second law, the fact that the universe is dying means THE 
UNIVERSE MUST HAVE HAD A BEGINNING. This is extremely significant because 
if the universe always was it would already be dead, and this is not the 
case.
(B) The First law indicates the universe could not have created itself, 
because the current structure of matter/energy can neither be created nor 
destroyed. This just naturally leads to the conclusion of creation and 
THEN the gradual process of dying that is now going on. This is exactly 
what the Bible teaches. As we proceed further in this study it will 
become wonderfully evident that the Bible is always in tune with SOUND 
proven scientific principles and discoveries, while understandably, it 
might not be so with unproven theories........   end

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  8 10:58:50 PDT 1996
Article: 123529 of soc.culture.african.american
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From: bud 
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Subject: definition of "fundamentalist"
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 08:31:01 -0700
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Webster's definition of "Fundamentalist", in case there is any dispute at 
to it's meaning.  If you can find a dictionary that includes belief in 
this so-called "holocaust" within that definition, I'd like a copy or a 
place where I can check it out for myself.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Aug  8 10:58:51 PDT 1996
Article: 123533 of soc.culture.african.american
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From: bud 
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Subject: a "fundamentalists" reply
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 08:27:42 -0700
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John Mitchell wrote:
> 
> Scott Maxwell wrote:
> >
> > > 1. "Jews are evil"(sic) every Christian Denomination has at its core a
> > >    denunciation of Jews as having caused Jesus' death.
> >
> >         Uh huh, and just which chapter of the bible says this?  (This is
> > especially untue for Fundimentalists who are very Pro-Isreal/Judeism.

I do not support present-day Isreal nor Judaism.  I believe most 
Christians today are being deceived into believing the lies of uninformed 
teachers, tv preachers and a very biased secular media.

> >
> 
> Fundamentalists support Israel, as otherwise they may difficulty going to
> Jerusalem.
> 
> > > 2. Order is a virtue (need no explanation there)
> >
> >         Right, that is one of the original Ten Virtues.  Order, Cleanliness,
> > and Flossing were truncated in the Middle Ages...
> >
> > > 3. Charity is highly desirable (the Nazis had more social programs than
> > >    any other government until the 1960s). Hitler promoted Charity as a
> > >    means of social coherence, just as all christians do.

Your point, please?  Does this mean Christians and Hitler or the same, 
etc.  I'm rather fed up with that analogy.  Marx was a Jew.  Are all Jews 
Communists?  Also, many Jews in Russian revolution are guilty of 
murdering millions of Christians and Russian civilians.  Does 
this then make all Jews murderers and persecutors?
 >
> >         OK, This is the same logic that says that Hitler is the true founding
> > father of Isreal...
> 
> But, if not for Hitler, there would have been no need for the existence
> of Israel!

Huh?  They started migrating there after WW 1, not after WW 2.  Check out 
the Balfour declaration.

> 
> >
> > > 4. Killing for your beliefs is justifiable (just lookto history for the proof).
> >
> >         I don't think that this is an exclusive to Catholicism or Chrstianity
> > in general (just look to history for proof).
> >
> > > So, even if the Pope didn't pull the trigger, he sure held the gun...

The Church of Rome is a chameleon.  it changes in accordance with its 
locale.  Today the Pope decries the so-called Holocaust (much of which is 
an exaggeration, but some of which is tragically true) and this Pope 
upholds just about whatever the popular opinion will support about the 
war, despite any real evidence to the contrary.

> >
> >         Yep, a complicated issue of the Second World War as described by a
> > complete idiot.

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)

Nixon is absolutely right!


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sun Aug 11 02:11:05 PDT 1996
Article: 3697 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.theology,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet.philosophy
Subject: what is your reality?
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 00:31:45 -0700
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Eolai wrote:
> 
> bud  wrote:
> 
> >Dave Humrick wrote:
> >>
> >> In article <32093671.1191@mail.gte.net> bud, budwrite@mail.gte.net
> >> writes:
> >> >
> >> >and baloney--Hoyle is also an Evolutionist.  As for defining
> >> >Evolutionists as Scientists and excluding Creationists from the
> >> >definition you are attempting to define your opposition out of
> >> > existence, a logical fallacy that does not hold up.
> >>
> >> Balls. Scientists "Do" science. Creationists, or more accurately
> >> "scientific creationists" - the proper name for young earth,
> >> religious fundamentalists - are ideologically constrained from
> >> "doing" science in any area that conflicts with their dogma.
> >>
> >>   You Want the names of dozens of
> >> >fine scientists who are also creationist contact ICR in Santee,
> >> >California and they can supply you with dozens or men engage in all
> >>areas of the sciences who are creationists.
> >>
> >> Typical. Proof by "go look it up if you don't believe me." Well,
> >> unfortunately for you, I have. Using The Institute of Creation
> >> Research as a source for names of creation scientists is a little
> >> like using NAMBLA as a source for the names of baby sitters.
> >>
> >> All ICR staff and trustees must annually sign a document promising
> >> to believe the proscribed religiously correct doctrine. What real
> >> scientist would do this? Here: the actual document the "scientists"
> >> of the ICR must obey, a few excerpts from TENETS OF SCIENTIFIC
> >> CREATIONISM and  TENETS OF BIBLICAL CREATIONISM:
> >>
> >>  1) The physical universe .. was supernaturally created by a
> >> transcendent
> >>  personal Creator who alone existed from eternity.
> >>
> >> 2) The phenomenon of biological life did not develop by natural
> >>  processes from inanimate systems but was specially and
> >>  supernaturally created by the Creator.
> >>
> >>  3) Each of the major kinds of plants and animals was created
> >>  functionally complete for the beginning and did not evolve from
> >>  some other kind of organism.
> >>
> >>  4) The first human beings did not evolve from an animal ancestry,
> >>  but were specially created in fully human form from the start.
> >> ---
> >>  3) All things in the universe were created and made by God in the
> >>  six literal days of creation week described in Genesis 1:1-2:3, and
> >>  confirmed in Exodus 20:8-11. The creation record is factual,
> >>  historical, and perspicuous; thus all theories of origins or
> >>  development which involve evolution in any form are false.
> >>
> >>  4) The first human beings, Adam and Eve, were specially created by
> >>  God, and all other men and women are their descendants.
> >>
> >> 5) The Biblical record of primeval earth history in Genesis 1-11
> >>  is fully historical and perspicuous, including the creation and
> >>  fall of man, the curse on the creation and its subjection to the
> >>  bondage of decay, the promised Redeemer, the worldwide cataclysmic
> >>  deluge in the days of Noah, the post-diluvian renewal of man's
> >>  commission to subdue the earth (now augmented by the institution of
> >>  human government) and the origin of nations and languages at the
> >>  tower of Babel.
> >> ----
> >>
> >> So tell me how anyone could pretend to be a scientist after
> >> promising not to believe ANYTHING that conflicts with this blatant
> >> religious dogma?
> >>
> >> Anyone who wants the entire ICR oath send e-mail.
> >
> >There are many teachers and scientists who have been made to promise they
> >will NOT teach Creationism and SWEAR TO TEACH ONLY EVOLUTION in
> >universities all over the nation.  Does this make them less of a
> >scientist?  This has nothing to do with the evidence presented --
> >Evolutionists themselves admitting to the problems with their
> >"theories."  You have resorted to attacking the men involved, not the
> >issue or the evidence.  If You REALLY want proof that is also available
> >from the very educated and highly qualified people you so easily defame
> >without cause other than your obvious dislike of the though of their
> >being a God, etc.  Since you attack the people, I will take a liberty
> >here: Like many such people, I would suspect, but admittedly cannot know
> >for certain, your problem with Creation is NOT the evidence, but a moral
> >problem.
> >--
> >"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)
> I think you misjudge agnostic and atheist evolutionists in
> their lack of belief in God.  I for one wishes that there
> were a God and that we all lived forever.  I wish you were
> right, believe it or not.  But I also wish I looked like Mel
> Gibson and could run like Johnson, but alas I don't think I
> can do that, look like that, or believe in a being that has
> no substance nor manifestations and I know of no evidence of
> life after death.  It is just reality and the real world.
> God is part of a fantasy world as is immortality however
> much I wish it were otherwise.  I feel I must stay in the
> world of reality, because it is the only plane of existence
> that I know of.
> 
> Eolai

reality, to me, is not believing in a theory that requires "belief" in a 
system that requires "faith" that a series of accidents can bring about 
the complexity of life, etc.  Reality says that when I see a chair in the 
middle of a well-organized room I do not BELIEVE that this all came about 
by accident, but reality tells me intelligence MADE IT AND PUT IT THERE. 
 This is reality, and certainly more in keeping with all observable 
facts.  Your problem IS your choice of believing.  There is lots of 
evidence for creation, etc., but the CHOICE is to dismiss it.  Also, not 
all Evolutionists are atheists.  Some are agnostic, others believe in a 
creator who is impersonal, etc. etc.  There are all sorts of "BELIEFS."  
As for some of your postulations, whether accepted or not, the Bible 
offers many answers to these questions and objections, but again the 
point would be if one will ACCEPT THE ANSWERS.  Sometimes the answers are 
not very pleasant nor very humanistic and this lots of people have 
trouble with.  The Bible speaks often about this and other subjects.  But 
there is in existence a body of powerful evidences to indicate that the 
Bible is a revelation from God, and that only God could have accomplished 
the completion of it.  This is an area of Christian Apologetics and 
again, the thing would be can OR WILL a person put aside their 
presuppositions and allow the evidence to speak for itself.  My 
experience has been that most, nearly all, simply are either incapable or 
unwilling to do that.  Finally, you should know that the Bible clearly 
teaches that no man can or will know of spiritual things unless he is 
called to this by God Himself.  Jesus Himself said that "No man can come 
to me unless the Father calls him."  There are many other such passages 
in Scripture about the fact that God is entirely in charge of all things, 
including salvation. 
God Bless, even if you don't believe in Him.
--Bud--


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sun Aug 11 02:11:09 PDT 1996
Article: 3718 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The faith of an evolutionist
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 00:42:50 -0700
Organization: home
Lines: 45
Message-ID: <320C3D7A.4B38@mail.gte.net>
References: <31b0b0b3.35177642@news.iol.it> <31B49813.67DB@yuba1.yubacoe.k12.ca.us> <31BE710E.3319@ix.netcom.com> <4pmufb$q3b@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4pnj3h$ro6@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4pshcf$1uq@homesick.cs.unlv.edu> <4q5ti1$at6@lilith.uab.es>  <31CA3874.5C75@earthlink.net> <4tlhr4$ieh@news.ycc.yale.edu> <320008C6.166C@mail.gte.net> <4trh30$8mi@nuntius.u-net.net> <4tst5c$evm@panix.com> <4tu0fm$fgb@peru.earthlink.net> <4u0o14$c1o@panix.com> 
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Marty G. Price wrote:
> 
> On 3 Aug 1996, Kirk Nechamkin wrote:
> 
> > What I meant in saying that "things just don't happen," is
> > JUST that -- they don't just happen. Evolution something
> > quite unique to life and living processes, along with
> > things that have been designed by people -- programs, for
> > example -- to evolve. Things don't self-organize, as the
> > laws of nature disallow such.
> >
> 
> [Snipped a fair portion of this silliness]
> 
> Son, the planet has evolved, the solar system has evolved, the galaxy has
> evolved, the universe has evolved.  Even rocks evolve --- ever hear of
> metamorphic rock?  I'm not going to get into whether this means the
> universe is alive --- I don't want to give aid and comfort to the ignorant
> by debating that proposition (or metaphor) with the better informed
> persons who disagree with my interpretation.
> 
> The laws of nature do *not* disallow self-organization.  Folks who thought
> that (a century or more ago) were in error.  Even the mathematically
> deficient such as myself are capable of understanding some of the obvious
> implications of chaos/complexity theory --- such as self-organization.
> Bill Woody posted an excellent example from meteorology, the formation of
> a raindrop.
> 
> The next time you see a snowflake, pick it up, say "Wow,
> self-organization", and take the time to genuinely wonder at this awesome
> universe instead of fleeing to the refuge of a creator so sloppy that you
> see his patch-work everywhere.
> 
> Blessed Be,
> Galeto believe as this man does takes real "faith."  Many of you Christians should be as faithful as he is to his adherence of intelligent 
accidents, chance happenings of millions adding up to intelligence and 
order, etc. etc.  You Christians have a historical, testable record (the 
Bible) on which to base your faith.  Get to know it (the Bible) well!  
Then you can quote something concrete other than just your feelings and 
faith as this person has done.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sun Aug 11 02:11:11 PDT 1996
Article: 3721 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: The faith of an evolutionist
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 00:42:39 -0700
Organization: home
Lines: 38
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References: <31b0b0b3.35177642@news.iol.it> <31B49813.67DB@yuba1.yubacoe.k12.ca.us> <31BE710E.3319@ix.netcom.com> <4pmufb$q3b@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4pnj3h$ro6@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4pshcf$1uq@homesick.cs.unlv.edu> <4q5ti1$at6@lilith.uab.es>  <31CA3874.5C75@earthlink.net> <4tlhr4$ieh@news.ycc.yale.edu> <320008C6.166C@mail.gte.net> <4trh30$8mi@nuntius.u-net.net> <4tst5c$evm@panix.com> <4tu0fm$fgb@peru.earthlink.net> <4u0o14$c1o@panix.com> 
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Marty G. Price wrote:
> 
> On 3 Aug 1996, Kirk Nechamkin wrote:
> 
> > What I meant in saying that "things just don't happen," is
> > JUST that -- they don't just happen. Evolution something
> > quite unique to life and living processes, along with
> > things that have been designed by people -- programs, for
> > example -- to evolve. Things don't self-organize, as the
> > laws of nature disallow such.
> >
> 
> [Snipped a fair portion of this silliness]
> 
> Son, the planet has evolved, the solar system has evolved, the galaxy has
> evolved, the universe has evolved.  Even rocks evolve --- ever hear of
> metamorphic rock?  I'm not going to get into whether this means the
> universe is alive --- I don't want to give aid and comfort to the ignorant
> by debating that proposition (or metaphor) with the better informed
> persons who disagree with my interpretation.
> 
> The laws of nature do *not* disallow self-organization.  Folks who thought
> that (a century or more ago) were in error.  Even the mathematically
> deficient such as myself are capable of understanding some of the obvious
> implications of chaos/complexity theory --- such as self-organization.
> Bill Woody posted an excellent example from meteorology, the formation of
> a raindrop.
> 
> The next time you see a snowflake, pick it up, say "Wow,
> self-organization", and take the time to genuinely wonder at this awesome
> universe instead of fleeing to the refuge of a creator so sloppy that you
> see his patch-work everywhere.
> 
> Blessed Be,
> Gale

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug 12 13:01:29 PDT 1996
Article: 3881 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.theology,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet.philosophy,a.bsu.religion,alt.atheism,talk.atheism,talk.origins
Subject: weak arguments result in name-calling, and wrong to boot!
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:00:23 -0700
Organization: home
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References:  <4r7crl$e5h@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4r7seb$fs7@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4r8tk5$gpk@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <31E30166.2D7F@mho.net>    <31F800DD.9D0@eagle.wbm.ca>  <32053FF2.5E@mail.gte.net> <4uaolf$j31@natasha.rmii.com>
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Wissenschaftler wrote:
> 
> >papering over holes in the big bang theory, to build up an idea that has
> >become ever more complex and cumbersome...I HAVE LITTLE HESITATION IN
> >SAYING THAT A SICKLY PALL NOW HANGS OVER THE BIG BANG THEORY.
> 
> Big Bang isn t a theory; its a model.
> 
>  When a
> >pattern of facts become set against a theory, experience shows that the
> >theory rarely recovers."  (Evolutionist Sir Fred Hoyle, famous British
> 
> Hoyle has always, and is still regarded by the establishment as an asshole.
> No working productive scientist today takes him seriously.
> 
> >astronomer and cosmologist.  "The Big Bang Theory Under Attack" Science
> >Digest, Vol. 92 (May 1984), p. 84 (emphasis added)).
> >
> >"Once we see, however, that the probability of life originating at random
> 
> Life did NOT originate at random; it EVOLVED as a self-organizing nonlinear
> process balanced at the knife edge between chaos and equilibrium; these highly
> complex non-linear self organizing processes are now coming under greater
> scrutiny as near-chaotic processes quantifiable via the new mathematics of
> chaos.
> 
> >is so utterly minuscule as to make it absurd, it becomes sensible to
> 
> Absurd to you, because of your ignorance of mathematics. The REAL probability
> today is more like a certainty that if does arise as an inevitability.
> 
> >think that the favorable properties of physics, on which life depends,
> >are in every respect deliberate...It is, therefore, almost inevitable
> >that our own measure of intelligence must reflect higher intelligence --
> >even to the limit of God."  (Evolutionist Fred Hoyle and N. Chandra
> 
> You and Hoyle are of the exact same ilk; both asshole morons.
> 
> >Wickramasinghe, "Evolution from Space" London: J.M. Dent and Company,
> >1981, pp. 141,144)
> >
> >"The likelihood of the formation of life from inanimate matter of one to
> >the number of 40,000 noughts after it... IT IS BIG ENOUGH TO BURY DARWIN
> 
> You are a colossal moron. Go soak your stupid head in a toilet.
> 
> >AND THE WHOLE THEORY OF EVOLUTION.  There was no primeval soup, neither
> >on this planet nor on any other, and if the beginnings of life were not
> >random, they must therefore have been the product of purposeful
> >intelligence."
> 
> Yes, if the definition of intelligence includes those near-chaotic systems
> which are complex enought to self-organize.
> You, of course are not sufficiently complex to be included in that class.
> 
>  ("Hoyle On Evolution", Nature Vol. 294, #5837 November
> >12, 1981, p. 148 emphasis added.
> >
> >"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)
> 
> As to the BIG BANG - -
> 
> Latest research shows that the mathematical singularity that you morons refer
> to as the BIG BANG is REMOVED from physics if you replace (real) time by
> imaginary time, i.e.  t -> it;  where i = sqrt(-1). Notion of time is NOT
> invariant with time scale; it changes as you approach an external singularity.
> 
> Under this model, singularities dissapear, and there is NO ORIGIN; ie. universe
> has always existed, but NOT in Hoyle sense of steady-state. If you try to
> approach initial singularity or final (big crunch) it RECEDES from you
> indefinitely; ie you never arrive at the singularity. Thus NO CREATOR is
> needed, no initial conditions need be ordained by an external entity. These are
> the latest and most compelling models we have today. There WAS NO BIG BANG; at
> least NOT IN IMAGINARTY, or equivalently, entropic time (entropic time is
> -log(real time) - it is time experienced by sentient beings measured by
> quantum transition rate - or, subjective time).
> 
> Now go drown your useless superstitions head in a shitty toilet bowl.
> 
> Wissenschaftler.

bad language and bad taste do not an argument make.  The Big Bang is a 
"theory" Evolution is also a theory.
					
Websters--ev-o-lu-tion (ev uh lue'shuhn; esp. Brit. ee vuh-)  n. 
                  1.  any process of formation or growth; 
                       development: the evolution of the drama.
                  2.  a product of development; something 
                       evolved.
                  3.  Biol.
                       a.  change in the gene pool of a 
                            population from generation to 
                            generation by such processes as 
                            mutation, natural selection, and 
                            genetic drift.
                       b.  the development of a species or 
                            other group of organisms; phylogeny.
             NOTE------c.  the theory that all existing 
                            organisms developed from earlier 
                            forms by natural selection; 
                            Darwinism.

also from Websters...
big' bang' the ory  n. 
NOTE--------------- 1.  a theory that the universe began with an 
                       explosion of a dense mass of matter and 
                       is still expanding from the force of 
                       that explosion.
             [1950-55]


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug 12 13:01:32 PDT 1996
Article: 3899 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.theology,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet.philosophy,a.bsu.religion,
Subject: Re: avoid the accusations, stick to facts
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 19:43:43 -0700
Organization: home
Lines: 42
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R. Tang wrote:
> 
> In article <320A040F.54E2@mail.gte.net>, bud   wrote:
> >Dave Humrick wrote:
> >> In article <32093671.1191@mail.gte.net> bud, budwrite@mail.gte.net
> >>   You Want the names of dozens of
> >> >fine scientists who are also creationist contact ICR in Santee,
> >> >California and they can supply you with dozens or men engage in all
> >>areas of the sciences who are creationists.
> >
> >There are many teachers and scientists who have been made to promise they
> >will NOT teach Creationism and SWEAR TO TEACH ONLY EVOLUTION in
> >universities all over the nation.  Does this make them less of a
> >scientist?  This has nothing to do with the evidence presented --
> 
>         Yes, because the evidence solidly supports evolution.
> 
> >Evolutionists themselves admitting to the problems with their
> >"theories."
> 
>         That's how science is done.
> 
> >  You have resorted to attacking the men involved, not the
> >issue or the evidence.
> 
>         You can do all three. Check the talk origins FAQ.
> 
>         BTW....I would hardly credit people with diploma mill degrees or
> degrees in engineering as being very credible on geologic or biologic
> matters.
> 
> --
> Roger Tang, gwangung@u.washington.edu, Artistic Director  PC Theatre
>         Editor, Asian American Theatre Revue:
>         http://weber.u.washington.edu/~gwangung/TC.html
> Declared 4-F in the War Between the Sexes

Get serious.  Every man quoted is an authority within their field and are 
accurately quoted.  What are your credentials in that field that you 
attempt to denegrate them?
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug 12 13:01:34 PDT 1996
Article: 3910 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.theology,alt.christnet
Subject: very glad to see!!!
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 20:24:31 -0700
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Very glad to see that "evolution" and "Theory in Crisis" has brought so 
much posting and reaction.  The more I read of them the more the evidence 
piles up that Evolutionists are exercising a FAITH in a theory. Many of 
them just hate that word, FAITH, almost as much as some of them (I said 
SOME) evidently have a deep resentment towards "God" (whom they profess 
not to believe in) but at the very mention of His name SOME of them also 
resort to name-calling, adhomenim attacks or attempting to denegrate the 
work of some of the very men whose theories they are now exercising such 
FAITH in! 

Romans 1:18  For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all 
ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in 
unrighteousness,
19  because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God 
made it evident to them.
20  For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His 
eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood 
through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug 12 13:01:35 PDT 1996
Article: 3946 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.christnet.theology,alt.religion.christian,alt.christnet.bible,alt.christnet.philosophy,a.bsu.religion,alt.atheism,talk.atheism,talk.origins
Subject: ridiculous claim--it is faith
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:26:12 -0700
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bob puharic wrote:
> 
> bud  wrote:
> 
> >There are many teachers and scientists who have been made to promise they
> >will NOT teach Creationism and SWEAR TO TEACH ONLY EVOLUTION in
> >universities all over the nation.  Does this make them less of a
> >scientist?  This has nothing to do with the evidence presented --
> >Evolutionists themselves admitting to the problems with their
> >"theories."
> 
> 1. the first statement is true. since creationism is religion, having
> a teacher teach it would be establishment of religion. this is
> forbidden by the 1st ammendment.
> 
> 2. creationists by definition can not be scientists since they are
> biased and believe in transcendental explanation of material events.
> this is religion, not science.
> 
> 3. evolutionists admit problems with their theories? so what? this is
> science. the only guys who have no problems are the creationists since
> they can dream up whatever suites them.

You obviously have not read much creationist work.  many of them admit to 
various problems, especially in regards to scientific evidence, etc.  As 
a matter of fact, many of them admit (as Evolutionists generally fail to 
do) that the Origins are extremely difficult to prove and grant their 
proposal is also subjected to faith.  You, again, like most 
Evolutionists, attempt to classify your opposition out of existence by 
giving your own convenient definition of science.  It's a ridiculous 
claim, and simply flies in the face of the evidence.  You need to read 
more of the Creationists literature and view their credentials and avoid 
the propaganda being spread about Creationists by the Evolutionary 
community.  Evolution is a FAITH just in the same sense that Creationism 
involves a certain exercise of FAITH.  You don't like that word -- Your 
problem, but doesn't alter the truth of it.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug 12 13:01:37 PDT 1996
Article: 3959 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
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Subject: EVOLUTIONIST HAVE FAITH
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 07:34:46 -0700
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You don't think so just continue to read most of their postings and it's 
becoming more obvious -- only thing is they call it "science" and we call 
it "faith." but there is no difference, except they give "chance" the 
credit for their answer to origins and we give "God" the credit.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Mon Aug 12 13:01:40 PDT 1996
Article: 3960 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
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Subject: The God of "Chance Happenings"
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If you don't think that Evolutionists have faith just continue to read 
most of their postings and it's becoming more obvious -- only thing is 
they call it "science" and we call it "faith." but there is no 
difference, except they give "chance" the credit for their answers to 
origins and we give "God" the credit.


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sat Aug 24 13:19:46 PDT 1996
Article: 5044 of alt.bible.prophecy
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From: bud 
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Subject: apologetic # 5
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Previously it was stated that whether admitted to or not everybody 
exercises faith in one way or another.  Webster's defines it as a 
complete trust or confidence; loyalty.  Hebrews 1:11 says "Now faith is 
the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things unseen."  The 
real question is in "what" we place our faith.  
Essentially, there are three options where one can place their faith, and 
again it's very important to point out that BELIEVING IN SOMETHING DOES 
NOT MAKE IT TRUE OR UNTRUE.  WHAT COUNTS IS THE EVIDENCE.  One of these 
options is science.
Someone once sarcastically stated that the definition of science is 
"learning more and more about less and less, till you know everything 
about nothing."  Joking aside, science has certainly increased man's 
knowledge of himself and the universe.  Science has documented a vast 
array of facts about the universe.  Yet at the same time it has revealed 
how much man DOES NOT KNOW.  The more the frontiers of knowledge are 
pushed back by science, the more vast becomes the area of the unknown.  
Every question science answers in almost all cases seems to raise a 
hundred more questions.  Everywhere there is the SAME EVIDENCE of law and 
order, or a thinking mind behind it all.  To the Christian this is the 
mind of God.  It seems highly unlikely that science has or ever will have 
all the answers, especially regarding the origin, nature and purpose of 
the universe.  
The origin of the universe, for example, is outside the realm of 
scientific investigation.  The scientist who speaks of "origins" speaks 
as a philosopher rather than a scientist.  He SAYS WHAT HE THINKS NOT 
WHAT HE KNOWS.  He is dealing in THEORY, NOT FACTS.  Like it or not, this 
is true for both the Creationist and the Evolutionist, despite the 
attempts by some to label one as "science" and the other as "religion."
There are many today who put their FAITH in the THEORY of Evolution (that 
man evolved from a lower life form).  The question to be posed is a 
"theory" worth putting ones faith in?  Whatever your answer, it's 
important to take a long look at Evolution.
The media has been the most influential in promoting the supposed "fact" 
of evolution with much of its programming and magazine sections loyally 
devoted to the evolutionary theory.  Ever since the Scopes Trial (the 
famous "monkey trial") evolution has been almost universally accepted as 
fact, while at the same time Biblical Creationism has been somewhat 
arbitrarily discarded as an antiquated belief of a former age.  
Unfortunately, even some factions of organized Christianity has spent the 
past century or more retreating and trying to compromise with some form 
or theistic evolution.  Consequently, the faith of many Bible-believing 
Christians has been seriously affected and countless numbers of sincere 
people have been deceived.
Students all over the world have been taught the historical and 
scientific greatness of disproving spontaneous generation (life coming 
>from  nonliving manner).  Scientists like Redi, Pasteur, and Spallanzani 
proved that life can only come from pre-existing life.  IT IS INCREDIBLE 
THAT THE EDUCATORS WHO TEACH THIS TO STUDENTS STILL, NONETHELESS, TEACH 
THAT SPONTANEOUS GENERATION WAS THE MEANS BY WHICH LIFE AROSE.  It is 
even further ironic that the very concept of organic evolution is 
completely absurd and impossible.  Yet, as astonishing as it might seem, 
this idea (which is devoid of any legitimate scientific proof) has 
attained a lofty position in the name of science...
The most widespread and influential argument against the Bible's veracity 
is the all too common belief that modern science has proved Evolution, 
thereby discrediting the Biblical account or creation.
The fatal flaw in this argument, however, is THE FACT THAT IT IS 
IMPOSSIBLE TO  PROVE SCIENTIFICALLY ANY THEORY OF ORIGINS.  This is 
because the very essence of scientific method is based on OBSERVATION AND 
EXPERIMENTATION, and it is impossible to make observations or conduct 
experiments on the origin of the universe.  This point is conceded by 
British biologist L. Harrison Matthews in his forward to the 1971 edition 
of Darwin's "Origin of Species."
	"The fact of evolution is the backbone of biology, and biology is 
in this peculiar position of being a science founded on an unproved 
theory--is it then a science or a faith?  Belief in the theory of 
evolution is thus exactly parallel to belief in special creation--both 
are concepts which believers know to be true, but neither, up to the 
present, have been capable of proof."
Sure, scientists may speculate about the past or future, but they can 
only actually observe the present.  Obviously then, the widespread 
assumption that evolution is an established fact of science is false.  
Thus, Evolution can only correctly be labeled a "belief," a subjective 
philosophy of origins.
Another important point... scientists ARE HUMAN.  They have PERSONAL 
PREFERENCE, PREJUDICES, VIEWPOINTS and even a predisposition to certain 
views.  This can be applied to both Creationists and Evolutionists.  
Simply put, they ARE NOT ALWAYS UNBIASED OR OBJECTIVE.  Here is a 
statement from Dr. George Wald, winner of the 1967 Nobel Peace Price in 
science:  "When it comes to the origin of life on earth, there are only 
two possibilities" Creation or spontaneous generation (evolution).  There 
is no third way.  Spontaneous generation was disproved 100 years ago, but 
that leads us only to one other conclusion: that of supernatural 
creation.  We cannot accept that on philosophical grounds (personal 
reasons); therefore, we choose to believe the impossible: that life arose 
spontaneously by chance."
When you read his statement note the words and phrases like "cannot 
accept" or "philosophical grounds" and "choose to believe."  These are 
personal reasons, choice, NOT SCIENCE.
Like it or not, Evolutionists BELIEVE in one form or another that some 
imagined process living things formed themselves with no intelligence 
controlling, then somehow improved themselves... all bacteria, plants, 
animals, and humans arose by mere chance from a single ancestor that 
somehow came into existence... All of this occurring accidentally.  If 
you reach back far enough into this theory, the theory of Evolution is 
proposing that given enough time Hydrogen gas has turned into people!
This ends number 5.  In the next posting evolution and the so-called 
Geological columns, etc., will be discussed.  

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)



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