From budwrite@mail.gte.net Tue Jul 16 12:25:59 PDT 1996
Article: 50741 of alt.revisionism
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From: Bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: BRADLEY SMITH'S WEBSITE SHUT DOWN
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:26:26 -0700
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tom moran wrote:
> 
> dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:
> 
> >
> >CODOH@msn.com (Bradley Smith) writes:
> >
> ># Even little Danny Keren
> >
> >Hmm. "Little"? In terms of body weight? Compared to you? Sure.
> >
> >Hope I'm still "fit for work", nontheless? Can still do 'bout
> >50 push-ups and 15 pull-ups, on a good day.
> >
> ># is against this sort of Stalinist move to harass and if possible
> ># control an open debate on the Holocaust Controversy.
> >
> >As I said, I prefer to wait and see *exactly* why the site was
> >closed. Ok, big guy? As I said, if it's *only* because of the
> >so-called "revisionist" views, I strongly protest this action.
> >
> >
> >-Danny Keren.
> >
>         It would be a tactical error for the likes of the former
> professor, or the former impersonating professor, whichever the case
> may be, to come out and downright endorse the censorship. Any
> statement he says in support of free speech I see as just a tacit
> approval to give the illusion he is for free speech.
>         My personal opinion based on my long time experience of
> witnessing the factions constant barrage against open debate about the
> Holocaust or Zionism.
> 

I would tend to generally agree with your assessment, Tom.  Although I 
have not spent a great of time on this newsgroup, it has been my 
observation almost from the outset that many (not all, but too many to 
my observation) of the exterminationists on this group are in favor of 
censorship, and demonstrate a proclivity towards doing and supporting 
censorship of opinion -- most of all the constant accusations, 
name-calling, and othert undesirable tactics. 
-- 
"History is bunk!"  (Henry Ford)
"History is a lie commonly agreed upon"  (Neitzche)
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Tue Jul 16 12:49:42 PDT 1996
Article: 50751 of alt.revisionism
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From: Bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:50:30 -0700
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Brlhagen wrote:
> 
> dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) on 6 Jul 1996 13:20
> MST
> in commenting on my article "Revisionism Defined"
>  said:
> 
> > As you are offering us a "precis" of Holocaust revisonism, might you
> >     tell us a little about yourself so that we know whether you speak
> > for
> >     the bulk of the revisionists out there?  Is Bruce Hagen your real
> > name?
> >     Have you done any Holocaust revisionist work yourself?  Are you
> > aligned
> >     - or a member - of any specific group practicing or promoting
> > Holocaust
> >     revisionism?
> >
> >     By what reasoning or authority do you speak for "revisionists"?
> 
> No doubt you'd also like my address, my date of birth, my employment
> records, my most recent resume, names of wife and children, etc.  Sorry
> but I know too well the consequences of being "public" with incorrect
> attitudes and thinking such as mine.  I could be a defender of Stalin,
> Farrakhan, Tojo or Ghengis Khan and would have no problem on (especially
> on) or off campus.  But saying something objective about revisionism,
> something that comes up short of denouncing it as the world's most heinous
> posture, is designed, I am quite aware, to cause me and mine nothing but
> serious trouble.  So pardon me if I maintain anonymity.
> 
> What I said, incidentally, is my reading of what serious and rational
> revisionists are saying (and, obviously, what I am saying).  I speak only
> for myself and am not a member of any group putting forth an "official"
> revisionist position.  I don't defend revisionist positions that differ
> from mine.  Nor do I denounce them.  Sorry, I thought this was all
> obvious.
> 
> > No, "Jewish Holocaust" is not an improved term.  Such a term diminishes
> >     the suffering and deaths of non-Jews (5 to 6 million or so of them.)
> >  I
> >     prefer the term "Nazi Holocaust" naming the perpetrators rather than
> >     the victims.  I note that some Jewish organizations might disagree
> > with
> >     me on this point, but using the term "Jewish Holocaust" denotes a
> >     special significance to the Jewish deaths which, I believe, is
> >     something many revisionists are opposed to.  I find it interesting
> > that
> >     you support the idea that there is something special about the
> > Jewish
> >     victims over the other victims.  This seems to set you apart from
> > other
> >     revisionists.
> My reference is to the popular culture which, thanks to the media, the
> education establishment - the establishment in general, in fact - regards
> "the" holocaust as almost exclusively a Jewish monopoly.  You and I may
> know of other suffering besides that of Jews but the ordinary man on the
> street, who has only Hollywood and pulp novels to go by, does not.  The
> ordinary man on the street would have no problem with the term "Jewish"
> Holocaust.  It is the opinion moulders who prefer "the" Holocaust because
> that of course makes it far more equal than all others.  Which is the
> whole point.
> 
> > The molar conventional view of the Holocaust is adhered to every
> >     Holocaust researcher in the world who holds a Ph.D. in History or
> >     related social science field and who has had specific academic
> > training
> >     in Jewish history or 20th century European history.  Given that, the
> >     molar conventional view of the Holocaust is so well established that
> >     this null hypothesis is commonly referred to as "fact".  Most all
> >     conventional historiography takes place among questions within this
> >     conventional molar view.
> 
> What is this "molar?"  Some new academic jargon-speak?  Why not use
> English?  Incidentally, the molar view of the world, in the judgment of
> virtually all learned peoples at one time, not too many centuries ago,
> accorded with Christian cosmology.  It no longer does.  Views change.
> Even conventional historiography changes.  And it will continue changing.
> Including the subject we're dealing with right here and now.  And I fear
> it will not change to your liking.
> 
> (this is part 1 of 2 - continued in next post)

You handled that very well.  This is exactly what I too object to -- this 
attempted use of intimidation to silence anyone who finds some credence 
in the traditional revisionist view.  This has been, to me, very 
suspicious, and eventually cause for my generally even giving more 
credence to the revisionists view about history needing some proper 
perspective and balance.  "If" some of them are prejudice... Well, then 
they at their also extremely biased adversaries will have to keep dealing 
with that by continuing to call each other names, I guess...
-- 
"History is bunk!"  (Henry Ford)
"History is a lie commonly agreed upon"  (Neitzche)
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Tue Jul 16 15:54:22 PDT 1996
Article: 50765 of alt.revisionism
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From: Bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:56:17 -0700
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Mike Curtis wrote:
> 
> brlhagen@aol.com (Brlhagen) wrote:
> 
> >> But academics are like cats - you can't herd them
> >
> >You can't possibly be serious.  What planet do you live on?
> >
> 
> We live on Earth. Where do you live?
> 
> Academics get in fights and battles all the time. A most recent
> example is with Goldhagen. And earlier reprehensible example is with
> H. Turner and some assistant professor who was trying to make a case
> that Hitler was supported by big business. The assistant prof was
> denied tenure.
> 
> >> Many academics are not pro-semites.  And many academics are
> >>     intellectually honest and will go whereever the evidence takes them.
> >
> >I agree partly here.  Certainly the first part is true.  And the second
> >part is not all that inaccurate.  But I would add a third part:  many
> >academics are cowards who shrink from being seen as politically incorrect
> >or out of step with academic establishment conventions.
> 
> Not as I see it for I see this happening all the time. Got any
> examples to prove your point? I have an endless supply of examples
> that will show you are incorrect in your last statement.
> 
> >  They are, in
> >their own way, sheep.  I see them every day.  In any event my focus here
> >is really on popular culture.  In a democratic world popular culture is
> >ultimately what matters.
> >
> 
> You must be a student. The only folks I ever hear this from is
> students.
> 
> >> > Why has the Jewish Holocaust become "the" event of the 1930'S and
> >> > 1940's >around which all others revolve including even World War II
> >> > itself?
> >
> >>     By what basis do you demonstrate that this is so?
> >
> >Again, what planet do you live on?
> 
> We live on Earth. Where do you live?
> 
> >  As WWII recedes, as the veterans on
> >both sides grow old and die, as the old war hatreds (at least some of
> >them) diminish and disappear, the Jewish holocaust simply grows and grows
> >in stature and importance.  The memorials and museums (actually they are
> >one and the same) proliferate in western country after western country,
> >most funded by taxpayers.   Holocaust studies, even departments and
> >separate endowed chairs, now exist at all major universities.
> 
> This makes sense in that it has been over 50 years. It makes more
> sense since documents that were hidden behind the Iron Curtain are
> coming to light. So historians can see a lot of work ahead.
> 
> >  Holocaust
> >curricula are required in many high schools.
> 
> I haven't seen this. What schools are these and what are the classes?
> 
> >  In terms of films, TV
> >productions and documentaries, books, fiction and non-fiction, the numbers
> >grow exponentially each decade.
> 
> This will happen as more and more documentation comes to light. This
> will happen as people begin to die and publish the memoirs about
> things they didn't really want to talk about. It was, after all, the
> human tragedy of our century.
> 
> >  I have no doubt there are millions
> >(almost exclusively young persons under 30 probably) who can say little
> >about WWII but who can recount all the dramatic and tragic details of
> >"the" holocaust.  If you don't think that, in the popular culture at
> >least, the holocaust is virtually the whole ball of wax today then you and
> >I inhabit different worlds.  But then we know that already.
> >
> 
> We aren't sure what planet you are from yet. Some of us have a
> different perception of our world and its focus than you seem to have.
> 
> We would be more civil if you didn't stoop to the "what planet do you
> live on" nonsense.

Who is "we"?  Are you representing some group?  If so, who are they?  
Where can they be contacted?  What are their names and where, if, can 
they be contacted?
-- 
"History is bunk!"  (Henry Ford)
"History is a lie commonly agreed upon"  (Neitzche)
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Tue Jul 16 15:54:23 PDT 1996
Article: 50769 of alt.revisionism
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From: Bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Why don't historians deny the Holocaust? (Was Re: Revisionism Defined)
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:01:08 -0700
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tom moran wrote:
> 
> Marty Kelley  wrote:
> 
> >On Wed, 10 Jul 1996, Matt Giwer wrote:
> >
> >> On 8 Jul 1996 21:07:09 -0400, sf924@aol.com (SF924) wrote [re. Mr.
> >Hagen's "Revisionism defined]:
> >>
> >> >But you have to come to grips with a very serious fact: no historian or
> >> >academic, who is not also pushing a neo-Nazi or similar agenda, seems to
> >> >support your position.  The only people who seem to support your position
> >> >are those persons with a strong political or personal bias either to
> >> >rehabilitate Nazism, Hitler or facism or denounce its victims, i.e. Jews
> >> >and other lesser races.  Much of the recvisionist thinking plays on
> >> >earlier Nazi-style propoganda: i.e.  the Jews control the world.
> >>
> >> >Until serious mainstream academics come to support your position, your
> >> >position will be viewed as part of the lunatic fringe, and justifiably so.
> >>
> >>      Excuse me sir.  Mainstreme Acedemisians put their pants on one leg at a
> >> time just like the rest of us and have to achieve the same standards as
> >> anyone else in what they say.
> >
> >Actually, mainstream academicians generally hold themselves, and each
> >other, to higher standards in their writing than they would expect to see
> >in general public discourse.  That's why academic journals are subject to
> >"blind" peer reviews, where submitted articles are screened by
> >several readers who get a copy of the article with the author's name
> >removed. It's not a perfect system, but it's pretty rigorous.
> >
> >>      Anyone in the least familiar with academic politics (as in any other
> >> power structure) knows that any position/title/chair is a bureaucratic
> >> piece if shit.
> >
> >While academic politics are indeed a serious problem in the business, that
> >hardly makes _all_ scholarship invalid.  Within academe, for all its
> >faults and bickering (sometimes over trivialities), there are wide
> >variations in what is generally accepted in terms of theory and practice.
> >Ideological debate is common and wide-ranging--I have had profs who ranged
> >from Marxist to rock-bottom Tory in their politics.  Just asbout the only
> >thing that these very diverse folks would agree upon is that pseudoscience
> >(UFOs, "creationism," faith healing, etc) and pseudohistory (Holocaust
> >denial, the Trilateral Commission Conspiracy, etc.) are demonstably bunk.
> >
>         This is Mr.Kelley barking up the academic credentials topic
> again. Nothing proves academic degree guarantees anything.
> 
> >
> >----------------------
> >Marty Kelley  (mkelley@U.Arizona.EDU)
> >
> >"All that I care to know is that a man is a human being--
> >that is enough for me; he can't be any worse."
> >                                       --Mark Twain
> >

Youy are trying to "broad-brush" all those who are interested and give 
some credence to revisionists attempts and research as being neo-nazi or 
some other nefarious name.  This is flawed reasoning, and not accurate or 
based on all the evidence.  While it might be convenient for you to put 
tham all into one category, that just dowsn't hold up and is either a 
lack of knowledge on your part, or a deliberate attempt to "label" those 
who disagree with you.
-- 
"History is bunk!"  (Henry Ford)
"History is a lie commonly agreed upon"  (Neitzche)
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Tue Jul 16 18:21:00 PDT 1996
Article: 50812 of alt.revisionism
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From: Bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 15:05:16 -0700
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Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> brlhagen@aol.com (Brlhagen) writes:
> 
> [A whole lot of empty rhetoric deleted]
> 
> # 5 - What is the basis for Revisionists asserting there was
> # no attempted genocide of the Jews?  The linch-pin in this
> # argument is simply that there were no gas chambers, none,
> # zero, nada.  There is no evidence of gas chambers that an
> # objective person can find credible.
> 
> Yawn. Try to *prove* what you state. There's plenty of such
> evidence, which a great many courts, for instance, including
> a great many German courts, found very credible.
> 
> Try to *prove* what you claim. Don't just make void statements.
> 
> # There are no documents, no orders, no planning, no blueprints
> 
> There you go. This is an outright lie; there are orders, there
> are blueprints, there are documents. Some are routinely
> posted here.
> 
> You're simply lying. Many times. Any reason I should go on reading
> your article?
> 
> Ok, I did go on reading...
> 
> [Regarding testimonies of SS-men about gassings]
> 
> # Most are "coerced" confessions, as in "sign this or we'll pull
> # some more of your fingernails out.  Or we'll turn your wife and
> # children over to the Russians."
> 
> Another outright lie. There is no proof that *one* such testimony
> was obtained by such means. Moreover, a great many such testimonies
> were given to German courts, and I haven't yet seen one "revisionist"
> who claimed the Germans tortured these German SS-men into confessing.
> 
> It seems you're a pathological liar; if not, why are you lying
> so much? Please explain.
> 
> -Danny Keren.

well, there it is!  Name-calling, accusations, ad nauseum!  
-- 
"History is bunk!"  (Henry Ford)
"History is a lie commonly agreed upon"  (Neitzche)
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Wed Jul 17 07:35:53 PDT 1996
Article: 50908 of alt.revisionism
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From: Bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:43:15 -0700
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Brlhagen wrote:
> 
> Revisionism Accurately Defined
> -submitted for the edification of all
> by Bruce Hagen
> 
> A PRECIS OF HOLOCAUST REVISIONISM
> 
> Observers of the debate about the Holocaust may come away with some
> grotesque misimpressions about Holocaust Revisionism from the postings
> that appear on the internet, pro and con.  Here is what Holocaust
> Revisionism is and is not:
> 
> 1 - Revisionists object to the terminology "THE Holocaust," which by
> implication suggests it was unique, monumental, over-arching, perhaps even
> the central historical event of our century if not epoch.  In fact there
> have been many holocausts over the centuries, a good portion of them in
> our own Twentieth century.  The Jewish Holocaust is merely one of them.
> From the point of view of the world as a whole it is far from the greatest
> or most terrible, Hollywood to the contrary notwithstanding.  A marked
> improvement in both accuracy and objectivity can be achieved if the term
> "Jewish Holocaust" is substituted for the term "THE Holocaust."
> 
> 2 - Having stated the previous it is therefore obvious that Revisionists
> do not "deny" the Jewish Holocaust as their critics claim.  (Though of
> course it is understandable why those critics assert this;  if, in a
> debate about the shape of the earth, you can successfully pin on someone
> the label  "flat-earther," you've scored big points even if what they say
> is very far from the absurdity of such a posture.)  Revisionists are, in
> fact, Holocaust  DIMINISHERS, not deniers.  They are questioners about
> what they believe are significant exaggerations in the Holocaust tale, and
> they are critics of the view that somehow this historical event is beyond
> discussion on pain of being placed in the category of child-molester or
> worse, shunned by society, even fined and imprisoned by some so-called
> free countries in the western world.
> 
> 3 - Revisionists do not deny that there was much Jewish suffering during
> WW II, that there were many Jews who had property confiscated wrongfully,
> that many Jews died of disease or starvation in terrible conditions or
> were killed, that there were terrible brutalities and atrocities committed
> against Jews by Germans and others.  None of this do Revisionists deny.
> Revisionists do diminish the impact of these facts by pointing out that
> WWII was the bloodiest, deadliest, most atrocity ridden conflict in the
> history of man and that there was criminal behavior on all sides.  One
> need merely mention Dresden, Hiroshima, Nagasaki,  the deadly carpet
> bombing of German and Japanese working class living areas, the Soviet rape
> of Germany in their 1945 advance, the treatment of German civilians and
> German POW's after the war.  One could go on almost ad infinitum in this
> recitation of atrocities.  Fifty million - some say sixty million - died
> as a result of the war.  Was there more criminal behavior on one side than
> the other?  Perhaps, perhaps not.  Many revisionists would probably tend
> to say no, because:
> 
> 4 - Contrary to Holocaust Mythology there was no attempt by Nazis, or
> anyone else, to exterminate the Jews.  There was an attempt, largely
> successful in the areas controlled by the Axis, to expel the Jews from
> Europe.  It was done brutally, hatefully, without compensation, without
> any  legal nicety.  In the context of the 1990's it was a terrible
> undertaking.  In a different context, the context of European history over
> the last two millennia, the expulsion of the Jews from this region or that
> region was not uncommon.  Historically there seems to be something about
> the Jews that brings forth a plenitude of animosity on the part of people
> amongst whom they live.
> 
> 5 - What is the basis for Revisionists asserting there was no attempted
> genocide of the Jews?  The linch-pin in this argument is simply that there
> were no gas chambers, none, zero, nada.  There is no evidence of gas
> chambers that an objective person can find credible.  There is growing
> credible evidence that what purport to be the remains of gas chambers at
> Auschwitz and elsewhere are frauds, less believable than Potemkin
> villages.  There are no documents, no orders, no planning, no blueprints,
> no photographs, no autopsies,  nothing that is definitively or even
> reasonably credible to support gas chambers.   It is not believable that
> an enterprise as massive as the extermination through gassing of six
> million people in two or three years in a chaotic environment would not
> leave behind some physical evidence, some documentary remains.  And yet
> there isn't any.  As Professor Arno Mayer, the Princeton historian (who is
> Jewish),  has said, "Sources for the study of the gas chambers are at once
> rare and unreliable."  He wouldn't make such an admission if any credible
> evidence existed.  And he was writing in the late 1980's.
> 
> 6 - What does exist - as Revisionists are as aware as anyone - are, by the
> tens or even hundreds of thousands, testimonies and confessions.  Many, if
> not most, of the testimonies are preposterous, preternatural, not in
> keeping with the laws of the physical world.  The confessions are
> typically made by persons seeking desperately to curry favor with their
> captors or their jailers, to save their lives and the lives of their
> families in the prostrate world of utterly defeated Nazi Germany.  Most
> are "coerced" confessions, as in "sign this or we'll pull some more of
> your fingernails out.  Or we'll turn your wife and children over to the
> Russians."
> 
> 7.  Also existing are testimonies of survivors of the concentration camps,
> of camp personnel, of nearby civilians who had some connection or other
> with the camps, testimonies which completely contradict the notion that
> massive extermination programs were ongoing.  All of these testimonies are
> of course discounted and denigrated because they do not further
> Holocaustery. And then there are the aerial photographs made during the
> war by allied fly-overs of Auschwitz and other camps which lend no support
> whatever to the Holocaust story.
> 
> 8 - Why would so many people lie? is the question invariably put to
> Revisionists.  Some lie or abet the lie because it is quite profitable.
> There is no business like Shoah Business, said one Jewish observer some
> years ago in a candid moment.  (How many hundreds of millions of dollars
> have been made from Holocaust films and TV programs?)  Others lie because
> it is helpful to Israel, or for any of thousands of other perfectly
> understandable reasons.  Lying, or mythologizing, is a common human trait
> according to Joseph Campbell.  Many others among the testifiers are not
> lying.  They believe sincerely in what they proclaim about the gas
> chambers, about having seen them, about having seen the victims, about
> having seen the smoke rise from the stacks, etc. etc.  They are "honest
> and true believers" (as Elizabeth Loftus would put it) in the myth because
> it is important to them and to the Jewish people that the myth survive.
> The Holocaust has become the unifying myth of modern Jewry, as we all
> know.  Even Jews who believe in the Holocaust will admit this if they are
> honest.  Some people believe in Jesus, some in Mohammed, some in the
> efficacy of crystals, some in the Jewish Holocaust Myth.  Revisionists for
> the most part are non-believers in mythology.
> 
> 9 - There were no gas chambers but there were many Jews who died or were
> killed.  They were executed by the thousands for opposing German advances
> toward the east, for partisan activities connected with that opposition,
> for numerous other reasons perhaps none of which we today, or even most
> Germans of the 1940's, would accept as honorable.  Jews by the tens of
> thousands died in the concentration camps of deadly epidemics of disease,
> they died in the latter stages of the war of starvation when Germany was
> collapsing.  (Professor Mayer, a rare historian, has admitted many more
> Jews died this way than were executed.)   How many died during the war?  A
> lot.  Most Revisionists would probably say  half a million, perhaps as
> many as a million.  But not six million.  Too many survived the war for
> that number to be anything but part of the Jewish Holocaust Myth.  If a
> million did die it was but two per cent of the total slaughter of World
> War II.  That's the reality of the Jewish Holocaust.  Two per cent.  98%
> of the blood bath of World War II involved other than Jews.  Why,
> Revisionists ask, is almost the sole concentration today on Jewish deaths?
>  Why has the Jewish Holocaust become "the" event of the 1930'S and 1940's
> around which all others revolve including even World War II itself?
> 
> 10 - The truth about what Revisionists claim, in summary, is this:   1)
> The Jewish Holocaust is but one of many Holocausts even in the twentieth
> century;  2) There were no gas chambers and no attempt by the Germans to
> exterminate Jewry, expulsion being very different from extermination;  3)
> The common figure of six million is too large by 500% at least;  4) World
> War II was a slaughterhouse of unprecedented proportions for everyone
> involved not just Jews, who made up perhaps 2% of the total fatalities.
> 
> 11 - In 50 or 100 years, when the Holocaust Myth has met its proper
> demise, what Revisionists believe today will be standard historical canon
> from which only cranks and religious zealots will dissent.
> 
> Bruce L. Hagen

Good posting, thank you.  From what I have been able to discern so far, 
the position you posted is fairly accurate.  Often I cannot understand 
what the big "hollaballoo" is about?!  But it's evident that there are 
some that use (sometimes it seems to me they also distort) the position 
of revisionism and take it as a threat or label it anti-semitic, etc. 
etc.  To be sure there are some who do indeed use it as a tool for their 
dislike of some Jews... Yet, I think your posting is needed.  
Unemotional, and reasonably accurate (to my mind) and I wish more people 
would give it some genuine considertion rather than just "react!"
-- 
"History is bunk!"  (Henry Ford)
"History is a lie commonly agreed upon"  (Neitzche)
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Wed Jul 17 07:35:56 PDT 1996
Article: 50932 of alt.revisionism
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From: Bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 1996 14:03:47 -0700
Organization: GTE
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tom moran wrote:
> 
> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote:
> 
> >       There have been any objections to genocide on this newsgroup.
> >
> >       It is amusing to note that so few have read their bibles to realize that
> >the Israelites have the first written record of genocide in human
> >history.
> 
>         It might not be the "first written record", this I don't know,
> but it is the only one around that boast of killing little kids as a
> righteous tenet of their religion.
> 
>         But then, god told them to do it.

Hi Tom:  You are probably right in that the Bible does seem to be the 
first to actually record the record of genocide (not that that might have 
actually been in reality the first instance).  However, I must try to 
explain to you that to those who believe that the Bible is God's Word, we 
cannot put God on trial by what he does.  One of the main reasons for 
this misinterpretation comes from an untrue and unrealistic idea of who 
the God os Scripture is.  This "love" syndrome tries to make Him seem 
like some syrupy spirit and this just won't hold up under careful study 
of Scripture.  Another thing, is this assumption that God is ordering and 
condoning the death of nations of "innocents"  Overall the Scriptures 
make it clear that God is quite patient with nations, in His own way 
offers sometimes centuries for these nations to repent of their ways, 
etc.  Also, the God of Scripture appears to be much more concerned with 
the "eternal" destiny of his creations, mankind included, and essentially 
is NOT in the business of giving us what we want, but instead of working 
out eternity in accordance with WHAT HE WANTS.  While it is up to each 
individual to accept or reject this -- this is really overall a better 
portrait of Scripture (even though many don't like it preferring what 
they would consider more "correct" behavior according to their idea).  
Finally, GOD IS SOVEREIGN, Tom, at least according to Scripture, and He 
is going to attain all His desires because whether or not we understand 
eternity, He is better able to know what is ultimately best for His plans 
for eternity.  Further proof of this is the Book of Revelations, where 
God sends plagues, etc., and wipes out more than half the world 
population in His Wrath.  The Bible presents mankind and this planet as 
essentially being at war with God, Tom, and He is going to win!  Jesus 
Himself warned many times that to not be for Him was tantamount to being 
against Him!  No in-betweens, Tom.  Most people on this planet, whether 
declared or undeclared ARE at war with God -- by HIS definition!
-- 
"History is bunk!"  (Henry Ford)
"History is a lie commonly agreed upon"  (Neitzche)
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Jul 18 07:20:54 PDT 1996
Article: 51164 of alt.revisionism
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From: Bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:10:22 -0700
Organization: GTE
Lines: 41
Message-ID: <31EDC73E.347@mail.gte.net>
References: <4rq9n8$9f3@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4rrf70$il2@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <31EC0EA6.6718@mail.gte.net> <4sh97h$io9@atlas.uniserve.com>
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Hilary Ostrov wrote:
> 
> In <31EC0EA6.6718@mail.gte.net>, Bud  wrote:
> 
> [re Brlhagen's "response"]
> 
> >You handled that very well.  This is exactly what I too object to -- this
> >attempted use of intimidation to silence anyone who finds some credence
> >in the traditional revisionist view.
> 
> Ah, yes!  The "ultimate" weapon of those who have _neither_ rational
> argument on the topic _nor_ shred of evidence to support their
> characterization of their opponents' observations and reasoned
> arguments:  pin the "intimidation" tag on the opponent.  The
> laughter-label to end all laughter-labels.
> 
> Ever thought of changing your userID to "budlite" - seems to me it
> would be more in character than "budwrite"
> 
> [balance deleted]
> 
> hro
> 
> =======================
> Hilary Ostrov
> e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
> http://haven.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
> Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.eye.net/

You know nothing of my character or my points.  This attempt at being 
sarcastic is exactly what I have found objectionable about many of your 
exterminationts from the outset.  You just do not have the capability of 
addressing the issue without resorting to these childish tactics.  I do 
find this indicative of people with weak arguments, and makes me feel 
confident that much of what you have to offer is indeed not worth 
considering.  Keep it up -- you and other like you are giving the victory 
to your opponents.
-- 
"History is bunk!"  (Henry Ford)
"History is a lie commonly agreed upon"  (Neitzche)
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Jul 18 07:20:55 PDT 1996
Article: 51172 of alt.revisionism
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From: Bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 22:12:48 -0700
Organization: GTE
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <31EDC7D0.646C@mail.gte.net>
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Mike Curtis wrote:
> 
> Bud  wrote:
> 
> >Mike Curtis wrote:
> >>
> >> brlhagen@aol.com (Brlhagen) wrote:
> >>
> >> >> But academics are like cats - you can't herd them
> >> >
> >> >You can't possibly be serious.  What planet do you live on?
> >> >
> >>
> >> We live on Earth. Where do you live?
> 
> [snip]
> 
> >>
> >> >  I have no doubt there are millions
> >> >(almost exclusively young persons under 30 probably) who can say little
> >> >about WWII but who can recount all the dramatic and tragic details of
> >> >"the" holocaust.  If you don't think that, in the popular culture at
> >> >least, the holocaust is virtually the whole ball of wax today then you and
> >> >I inhabit different worlds.  But then we know that already.
> >> >
> >>
> >> We aren't sure what planet you are from yet. Some of us have a
> >> different perception of our world and its focus than you seem to have.
> >>
> >> We would be more civil if you didn't stoop to the "what planet do you
> >> live on" nonsense.
> >
> 
> I see you failed to address the questions asked of Mr. Hagen.
> 
> >Who is "we"?  Are you representing some group?  If so, who are they?
> >Where can they be contacted?  What are their names and where, if, can
> >they be contacted?
> 
> "We" are the people of the Earth. We are easy to find. I assume you
> are native to this planet so I'm sure you know how to contact one of
> us. What else could I have meant?

so now you speak for all the people of the earth...?  Not worth further 
comment.
-- 
"History is bunk!"  (Henry Ford)
"History is a lie commonly agreed upon"  (Neitzche)
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Thu Jul 18 13:56:33 PDT 1996
Article: 51250 of alt.revisionism
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From: Bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: (The real authority
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 1996 19:42:18 -0700
Organization: GTE
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--this is bud's son in law, anyone who dares to disagree with this great 
authority on the subject of the holocaust just doesn't have the full 
information or, doen't know the truth. 
Paul.
"History is bunk!"  (Henry Ford)
"History is a lie commonly agreed upon"  (Neitzche)
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sat Jul 27 12:36:05 PDT 1996
Article: 53766 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Mr. Keren also ignores this aspect
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 14:06:38 -0700
Organization: home
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Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> [Followup, yet again, set to alt.revisionism]
> 
> goth@big10.metrobbs.com (paul goddard) writes:
> 
> # That's true. I found Danny's lies about Fred Leuchter to
> # be the most deplorable part of his message.  Fred Leuchter
> # was the top expert in charge of executions in the U.S.
> # including gas chamber exections.
> 
> Name one gas chamber he built. No "revisionist" has been
> able to provide one. Maybe you can?
> 
> He lied about being an engineer. He has a BA in the arts,
> and he ended up in court for this.
> 
> It's a fact. Easy to verify. I have the excerpt from the
> so-called "Zundel trial" in which Leuchter himself admits
> to these facts. See the end of my article.
> 
> # One of the important findings  he made in the
> # alleged gas chambers of the Germans was that there was
> # no cyanide residue.
> 
> This is an outright lie on your part. Leuchter himself
> states very clearly that there are cyanide residues in the
> gas chambers; you obviously have not read his report.
> 
> He claims that there are not "enough" residues to prove
> that mass homicidal gassing took place in them, but this
> is totally false. I can elaborate, if there's interest.
> 
> You're writing about something which you obviously know
> nothing about. Your motivation is hate, not finding the
> truth.
> 
> # Danny's remarks are complete and utter falsehoods.
> 
> Everything I wrote about Leuchter is true. It's a matter
> of record.
> 
> This is a verbatim quote from the cross-examination of Fred
> Leuchter, "revisionist scholar, engineer and scientist":
> 
> [Pages 9196-9198 of the transcript in Zundel's trial.
> Cross-examination conducted by Mr. Pearson]:
> 
> Q: Now, Mr. Leuchter, Mr. Christie, when he was reviewing your
>    qualifications, said that, if my note is correct, you graduated
>    from university in a field that entitles you to function as as
>    engineer and you responded in the affirmative to that question?
> 
> A: Yes. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree.
> 
> Q: You graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree?
> 
> A: Right.
> 
> Q: When?
> 
> A: You mean what year?
> 
> Q: What year?
> 
> A: 1964.
> 
> Q: 1964. And that's the only University degree you have?
> 
> A: That's correct.
> 
> Q: You don't have a Bachelor of Science degree?
> 
> A: No.
> 
> Q: You don't have a Master of Science degree; you don't have a
>    Ph.D in science?
> 
> A: Correct.
> 
> Q: You don't have a degree in engineering?
> 
> A: That's correct.
> 
> Q: Do you belong to any supervising disciplinary professional body?
> 
> A: I don't understand the question, counselor.
> 
> Q: Well, do you belong to a governing body of engineers?
> 
> A: I -- governing body? I do not understand. Are you saying do I
>    belong to any scientific societies?
> 
> Q: No, is there any body of engineers that supervises you and
>    disciplines you in your engineering function?
> 
> A: No.
> 
> 
> 
> -Danny Keren.
> 
> --
> Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
> 
> -Lu Xun.

After the trial, and in response to Fred A. Leuchter's report, in 1990 
the Auschwitz State Museum commissioned the Krakow Forensic Institute to 
carry out an investigation of the alleged gassing sites at the camp.  The 
results of the testing of brick and mortar samples fully corroborated 
Leuchter's findings:  they found either no or very small traces of 
cyanide in its samples.  However, the institute stated that it could not 
be assumed whether or not cyanide traces can be detected after 45 years 
of being subjected to the weather and the elements.
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sun Jul 28 07:10:19 PDT 1996
Article: 53772 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Luther and the Jews Part 1
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:55:53 -0700
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Daniel Keren wrote:
> 
> [Followup, yet again, set to alt.revisionism]
> 
> goth@big10.metrobbs.com (paul goddard) writes:
> 
> # That's true. I found Danny's lies about Fred Leuchter to
> # be the most deplorable part of his message.  Fred Leuchter
> # was the top expert in charge of executions in the U.S.
> # including gas chamber exections.
> 
> Name one gas chamber he built. No "revisionist" has been
> able to provide one. Maybe you can?
> 
> He lied about being an engineer. He has a BA in the arts,
> and he ended up in court for this.
> 
> It's a fact. Easy to verify. I have the excerpt from the
> so-called "Zundel trial" in which Leuchter himself admits
> to these facts. See the end of my article.
> 
> # One of the important findings  he made in the
> # alleged gas chambers of the Germans was that there was
> # no cyanide residue.
> 
> This is an outright lie on your part. Leuchter himself
> states very clearly that there are cyanide residues in the
> gas chambers; you obviously have not read his report.
> 
> He claims that there are not "enough" residues to prove
> that mass homicidal gassing took place in them, but this
> is totally false. I can elaborate, if there's interest.
> 
> You're writing about something which you obviously know
> nothing about. Your motivation is hate, not finding the
> truth.
> 
> # Danny's remarks are complete and utter falsehoods.
> 
> Everything I wrote about Leuchter is true. It's a matter
> of record.
> 
> This is a verbatim quote from the cross-examination of Fred
> Leuchter, "revisionist scholar, engineer and scientist":
> 
> [Pages 9196-9198 of the transcript in Zundel's trial.
> Cross-examination conducted by Mr. Pearson]:
> 
> Q: Now, Mr. Leuchter, Mr. Christie, when he was reviewing your
>    qualifications, said that, if my note is correct, you graduated
>    from university in a field that entitles you to function as as
>    engineer and you responded in the affirmative to that question?
> 
> A: Yes. I have a Bachelor of Arts degree.
> 
> Q: You graduated with a Bachelor of Arts degree?
> 
> A: Right.
> 
> Q: When?
> 
> A: You mean what year?
> 
> Q: What year?
> 
> A: 1964.
> 
> Q: 1964. And that's the only University degree you have?
> 
> A: That's correct.
> 
> Q: You don't have a Bachelor of Science degree?
> 
> A: No.
> 
> Q: You don't have a Master of Science degree; you don't have a
>    Ph.D in science?
> 
> A: Correct.
> 
> Q: You don't have a degree in engineering?
> 
> A: That's correct.
> 
> Q: Do you belong to any supervising disciplinary professional body?
> 
> A: I don't understand the question, counselor.
> 
> Q: Well, do you belong to a governing body of engineers?
> 
> A: I -- governing body? I do not understand. Are you saying do I
>    belong to any scientific societies?
> 
> Q: No, is there any body of engineers that supervises you and
>    disciplines you in your engineering function?
> 
> A: No.
> 
> 
> 
> -Danny Keren.
> 
> --
> Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood.
> 
> -Lu Xun.

Understand that I wanted to avoid beginning this, but since Mr. Keren and 
others are now obviously beginning to attempt to bring this issue into 
the Christian Newsgroup I sincerely believe it is time to have a balance 
in this regard, especially since I have alse been noticing some postings 
about Hitler being a Christian, etc.  I believe it is time and I hope all 
or most of the sincere Christians will understand why this should be 
done... And, I also hope that this can cease somewhere along the line...

The following is an article that appeared in "The Christian News".  It 
was entitled "Luther and the Jews" and written by Pastor R. H. Goetjen.  
There are some striking samples of information that would seem 
particularly relevant to the alt.revisionism newsgroup.  Because of the 
length of the article, It is presented here in Three parts.  This is part 
number one.  It begins... You can contact "The Christian News" at: 3277 
Boeuf Lutheran Road, New Haven, MO 63069; or, you can email them at: 
otten@aol.com.

	Luther has been accused of anti-Semitism.  Was Luther really an 
anti-Semite?  That depends on you definition of anti-Semitism.
	When some people hear the term anti-Semitism, they immediately 
think of racism.  By racism they mean that a person is opposed to and 
prejudiced against a certain person or persons for no other reason that 
they belong to a certain race.  In other words, such a racist anti-Semite 
is opposed to any descendant of Shem because he is prejudiced against all 
Semites.
	If the above is the definition of anti-Semitism, then Luther 
certainly was not and could not have been an anti-Semite, for then he of 
necessity would also have been opposed to an prejudiced against Jesus of 
Nazareth and all the apostles and the entire Holy Bible since it was 
written almost, if not entirely, by the descendants of Shem.  Luther so 
loved his Lord Jesus Christ and His Holy  Bible that he was prepared to 
die for Jesus Christ and His Holy Word.  This he could not have done if 
he were opposed to an prejudiced against the Semitic race as such.
		TALMUDIC JEWS KHAZARS NOT SEMITES
	The term anti-Semite when applied to opposition to Jews is also a 
misnomer because the vast majority of Talmudic Jews today are not 
Semites.  There are many Khazar (Chazar or Khozer) Jews, Black Jews, 
Chinese Jews, East Indian Jews, Mexican, Japanese Jews, etc.  According 
to some authorities the Khazar Jews alone make up over 90% of the Jewish 
population of the world.  Only the Sephardic Jews are considered to be 
the descendants of Shem.  According to Benjamin Freedman, a converted 
Jew, the Khazar Jews are not Semites.  Mr. Freedman in his book, FACTS 
ARE FACTS on p. 42 quotes the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA in part as follows:  
"At the end of the eighth century... the chagan (king) of the Chazars and 
his grandees together were a large number of his heathen people embraced 
the Jewish religion ... about the ninth century, it appears as if all the 
Chazars were Jews and they had converted to Judaism only a short time 
before ... after a hard fight the Russians conquered the Chazars."
	Freedman further states: "Yiddish is the modern name for the 
ancient mother tongue of the Khazars with added German, Slavonic and 
Baltic adopted and adapted words (p.44).
	"The large number of Jews in Russian and eastern Europe after the 
destruction of the Khazar kingdom were therefore no longer known as 
Khazars but at the 'Yiddish' populations of these countries.  they so 
refer to themselves today (p.45).
	"The so-called or self-styled 'Jews' throughout the world today 
of eastern European origin make up at least 90% of the world's population 
of so-called or self-styled 'Jews' ... 'Talmudism', or 'Judaism', as 
Talmudism is known today, was given its greatest stimulus in all its 
history with the conversion of the large pagan Khazar population.  
Without the conversion of the Khazar population it is doubtful if 
Talmudism, or Judaism, could have survived.  'Talmudism,' the civil and 
religious code of the Pharisees, most likely would have passed out of 
existence." (p. 46).
	"THE KHAZARS WERE NOT 'SEMITES'.  THEY WERE AN ASIATIC MONGOLOID 
NATION.  THEY ARE CLASSIFIED BY MODERN ANTHROPOLOGIST AS TURCO-FINNS 
RACIALLY" (p 45-emphasis added).
	Douglas reed puts it this way:  The destructive achievement; in 
both the Zionist and Communist aspect, came from the Jews in Russia and 
the Romanoff; that is the key to the understanding of the present and the 
future.  THE JEWS WHO MADE THOSE TWO MOVEMENTS WERE NOT SEMITES; on that 
all qualified authorities agree; ... They are descendants of a Russian, 
Mongol Tartar race converted to Judaism in the 7th century whose remote 
forbears never trod the Palestinian soil" (FAR AND WIDE, p. 276- Emphasis 
added).
	"IN PART II, CH, V-VII, I HAVE COMPILED THE HISTORICAL EVIDENCE 
WHICH INDICATES THAT THE BULK OF EASTERN JEWRY - AND HENCE THE WORLD 
JEWRY -- IS OF KHAZAR-TURKISH, RATHER THAN SEMITIC, ORIGIN.  IN THIS LAST 
CHAPTER I HAVE TRIED TO SHOW THAT THE EVIDENCE FROM ANTHROPOLOGY CONCURS 
WITH HISTORY IN REFUTING THE POPULAR BELIEF IN A JEWISH RACE DESCENDED 
FROM A BIBLICAL TRIBE" (THE THIRTEENTH TRIBE, by Arthur Koestler, a Jew. 
p. 199 - Emphasis added).
	Thus if over 90% of modern day followers of Judaism, which is 
Talmudism or Pharisaism, are not Semites, what is the sense of calling 
those anti-Semitic who oppose those who follow the religion of the 
Talmud, i.e., the religion of the Pharisees?  When Luther was opposing 
the Jews in his day, he was not opposing Semites.  He was opposing 
Pharisees because they were Pharisees, not Semites.
	To define "anti-Semitism" as meaning being opposed to someone 
just because he belongs to a certain race is faulty also since it is 
based on the root meaning of the word and not on the USUS LOQUENDI, i.e., 
the use of the word in common speech.  Quite often the real meaning is 
different from that which the root meaning suggests.  Dictionaries 
attempt to give us the proper meaning of words.  FUNK & WAGNALLS STANDARD 
DICTIONARY, INTERNATIONAL EDITION gives this definition of anti-Semitism: 
"Opposition to, prejudice or discrimination against, or intolerance of 
Jews, Jewish culture, etc."  We will all have to agree that Luther was 
opposed to Jews and Jewish culture.  According to the dictionary 
definition of anti-Semitism we would all have to agree that Luther was 
indeed anti-Semitic.  However, not only Luther but Jesus Christ Himself 
was anti-Pharisee Jew.  This is likewise true of every follower of Jesus 
Christ.  So the question is, "Were Jesus, Luther and their followers 
justified in being anti-Pharisee Jew?"
			THE TALMUD
	What is Jewish culture?  According to a Rabbi, to know Jewish 
culture one must be acquainted with the Talmud.  The Rev. Dr. Isaac Wise 
who edited and corrected the first edition of Michael Rodkinson's English 
translation of the Talmud states on page XI: 'The modern Jew is the 
product of the Talmud" (Freedman p. 35).  He also stated:  "It  (the 
Talmud) still dominates a whole people who venerate its contents as 
divine truth ... The colleges for the study of the Talmud are increasing 
in almost every place where Israel dwells, especially in this country 
where millions are gathered for the funds of the two colleges, The Hebrew 
Union College of Cincinnati and the Jewish Theological Seminary of 
American in New York, IN WHICH THE CHIEF STUDY IS THE TALMUD" (emphasis 
added - ibidem p.25).
	LADIES HOME JOURNAL BOOK BONUS may 1967 gives part of a novel 
entitle THE CHOSEN by Chaim Potok.  The author, speaking of the Yeshiva, 
the Jewish parochial school, states in part, "The test of intellectual 
excellence, however, had been reduced by tradition to a single area of 
study: Talmud, Virtuosity in Talmud guaranteed a reputation for 
brilliance."
	The Talmud is therefore the chief book which is taught in Jewish 
parochial schools, colleges and seminaries.  What sort of book(s) of 
instruction is the Talmud?  Permit us to quote Jewish sources for the 
answer:
	"The Talmud, then, is the written form of that which, in the time 
of Jesus, was called the Tradition of the Elders, and to which he makes 
frequent allusions" (THE HISTORY OF THE TALMUD, by M. L. Rodkinson, p. 
70).
	The Tradition of the Elders contained the doctrines, beliefs, and 
practices of the sect of the Pharisees.  "Pharisaism became Talmudism, 
Talmudism became Medieval Rabbinism and Medieval Rabbinism became modern 
Rabbinism.  But throughout these changes in name, inevitable adoption of 
custom, and adjustment of law, the spirit of the ancient Pharisee 
survives unaltered.  Then the Jew ... studies the Talmud, he is actually 
repeating the arguments used in the Palestinian academies (THE PHARISEES 
by Louis Finkelstein, Provost and Solomon Schechter Professor of Theology 
at the Jewish Theological Seminary of America -- THE PLOT AGAINST 
CHRISTIANITY by E. Dilling, Exhibit 1 a photostatically reproduced page 
>from  the above book).  In other words, the modern day followers of the 
Talmud are Pharisees.
	"THE UNIVERSAL JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA p. 474 also states: "the 
Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, 
through all the centuries from the Pharisees.  their leading ideas and 
methods found in literature of enormous extent ... The Talmud is the 
largest and most important single member of that literature, ... and the 
studying of it is essential for any real understanding of Pharisaism."
			CHRIST OPPOSED PHARISEE JEWS
	Dr. Martin Luther was a sincere follower of Jesus Christ.  Jesus 
Christ in His day also opposed the Pharisee Jews with great vehemence.  
In Matthew 23 Jesus Christ castigates the Pharisee Jews in no uncertain 
terms.  No less than eight times he places His "Woe" upon them.  Six 
times He calls them "hypocrites".  Twice He calls them "blind guides" and 
"fools and blind."  He calls them "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers". 
 He also states, "Ye are like whited sepulchres, which indeed appear 
beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and all 
uncleanness."  Finally He pronounces His judgment upon them, "Wherefore, 
I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of they ye 
shall kill and crucify, and some of them ye shall scourge in your 
synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:  That upon you may come 
all the righteous blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son 
of Barachias whom ye show between the temple and the altar... Behold your 
house is left unto you desolate" (v 34, 35, 38).
	Jesus also revealed His vehement opposition to the Pharisee Jews 
in John 8:44: "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lust of your 
father ye will do.  He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not 
in the truth, because there is no truth in him.  when he speaketh as lie, 
he speaketh of his own for he is a liar and the father of it."  Here 
Jesus  not only calls the Pharisee Jews the sons of the devil, but also 
implies that they are liars and murderers.
	Jesus, speaking of the Pharisee Jew Traditions of the Elders, 
charges, "Thus ye make the commandment of God of none effect by your 
tradition" (Mt. 15:6).  "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that 
ye may keep your tradition ... making the Word of God of none effect 
through your tradition" (Mk 7:13).
	Do the Pharisee Jew followers of the Babylonian Talmud really 
"reject" and "make of none effect" the commandments of God by their 
Tradition of the Elders?  Permit us to quote from the Talmud so that you 
can judge for yourselves:
		QUOTATIONS FROM THE TALMUD
	"Every goy (non-Jew) who studies the Talmud and every Jew who 
helps him in it, ought to die" (Sanhedren, 59a; ABODA ZORA, 8-6, SZAGIGA, 
13).  The Jews want to censor what Christian Publishing Houses publish 
before they publish it to see if there is anything against the Jews in 
what is being published.  Will they permit Christians to censor what they 
publish or have published to see if there is anything anti-Christian in 
their publications?
	"If a Jew be called upon to explain any part of the Rabbinical 
books, he ought to give a false explanation.  Whoever will violate this 
order shall be put to death (LIBBRE DAVID 37).
	"The Jew should and must make a false oath when the goyim 
(non-Jew) ask if our books contain anything against them" (SZAALOTH 
UTSZABOTG, the BOOK OF JORE DIA 17).
	"To communicate anything to a goy (non-Jew) about our religious 
relations would be equal to killing all Jews, for it the goyim knew what 
we teach about they would kill us openly' (LIBBRE DAVID 37).
	"A Jew may do to a non-Jewess what he can do.  He may treat her 
as he treats a piece of meat" (NADARINE, 20, B; SCHUDCHAN ARUCH, CHOSZEN 
HAMISZPAT 348).  We see a modern interpretation of this text in the 
following quote:  "Jews believe that when it comes to sex, Gentile girls 
are more willing, more able, and ABOVE ALL MORE AVAILABLE... and because, 
after all, they are Gentiles, sex, pure physical sex  WITHOUT 
ENCUMBRANCES, IS A LICENSE ONE CAN TAKE WITH THEM" (THE JEWISH MYSTIQUE 
by Ernest Van Den Haag, p. 214. Emphasis added).
	"A Jew is permitted to rape, cheat, and perjure himself; but he 
must take care that he is not found out, so that Israel does not suffer" 
((SCHULCHAN ARUCH. CHOSZEN HAMISZPAT 348)
	"All property of other nations belongs to the Jewish nation, 
which, consequently is entitled to seize upon it without any scruples.  
An orthodox Jew is not bound to observe principles of morality toward 
people of other tribes.  he may act contrary to morality, if profitable 
to himself or to Jews in general" (SCHULCHAN ARUCH, CHOSZEN HAMISZPAT 
348).
	"In Volume III of the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA on p. 539 will be found 
the official translation into English of the prayer known as the 'Kol 
Nidre' (all vows) prayer.  It is the prologue of the Day of Atonement 
services in the synagogues... The official translation into English of 
the 'Kol Nidre' (all vows) prayer follows:  "All voes, obligations oaths, 
anathema's, whether called 'konan', 'konas', or by any other name, which 
we may vow, or sear, or pledge, or whereby we may be bound, from this day 
of Atonement unto the next (whose happy coming we await), we do repent.  
May they be deemed absolved, forgiven, annuled, and void and made of no 
effect; they shall not bind us nor have power over us.  The vows shall 
not be reckoned vows; the obligations shall not be obligatory; nor the 
oaths, (Quoted by Benjamin Freedman in FACTS ARE FACTS p. 35).
	Although the Kol Nidre (All Vows) is later than the Talmud gets 
its implications, inferences and innuendoes are found in the Talmud in 
the BOOK OF NEDARIM 23a-23b as follows:  "And he who desires that none of 
his vows made during the year shall be valid, let him stand at the 
beginning of the year and declare, 'Every vow which I shall make in the 
future shall be null.' (His vows are then invalid) providing that he 
remembers this at the time of the vow." (OP,.CIT. p. 36.  See also 
Dilling Exh. 171.).
	Professor Theodor Reik's analysis of the Kol Nidre was as 
follows:  "The text was to the effect that all oaths which believers take 
between one Day of Atonement and the next Day of Atonement are declared 
invalid" (Freedman p. 36).
	Who reading these facts taken from Jewish "Culture" isn't 
reminded of the statement of the Kremlin boss who said: "Treaties are 
like pie crusts, made to be broken"?
	According to the Talmud sodomy with a child under the age of nine 
is no sin:  "Rab said: Pederasty with a child below nine years of age is 
not deemed as pederasty with a child above that... (Footnote -- Rab makes 
nine years the minimum, but if one committed sodomy with a child of 
lesser age, no guilt is incurred" (Sanhedrin 54b 55a -- Dilling Exh. 54).
	"Raba said, It means this: When a grown up man has intercourse 
with a little girl is it nothing, for when a girl is less than this 
(footnote: less than three years old)it is as if one puts the finger into 
(footnote: tears come to the eye again and again, so does virginity come 
back to the little girl under three years); but when a small boy has 
intercourse with a grown woman he makes her as 'a girl that is injured by 
a piece of wood.'" (KETHUBOTH 11b -- Dilling Exh. 54).
	""For murder, whether of a Cuthean by a Cuthean, or of an 
Israelite by a Cuthean, punishment is incurred; but of a Cuthean by an 
Israelite, there is no death penalty' (SANHEDRIN p. 57a Dilling Exh 147). 
 
	THE TALMUD TEACHES THAT THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE THE MESSIAH:
	"These are the throes of mother Zion which is in labor to bring 
forth the Messiah -- without metaphor, the Jewish people" (KETHOBOTH p. 
11a - Dilling Exh 147).  The "without metaphor" means that the Jewish 
people are LITERALLY the "Messiah".
	In fact according to the Talmud an Israelite is a divine being: 
"R. Hanna said: If a heathen smites an Israelite on the jaw, it as if he 
had assaulted the Divine Presence; for it is written, ONE THAT SMITETH A 
MAN (i.e. Israelite) ATTACKETH THE HOLY ONE" ( SANHEDRIN 58B - Dilling 
Exh. 59).
	In 1924 the noted Jewish writer and editor Maurice Samuel 
published a book entitled, YOU GENTILES, in which is stated " In the 
heart of any pious Jew, God is a Jew. (VERITAS VINCIT WAR! WAR! WAR! by 
Cincinnatus, p. 142).
	Jews are people, God's people, but non-Jews are beasts, animals: 
"Abide ye here with the ass (which may be rendered) people that are like 
an ass" (KETHUBOTH 111a -- Dilling Exh. 148; TALMUD UNMASKED p. 51).
	"A Jewish mid-wife ... is forbidden to help a non Jewish woman 
even if be possible to help her without desecrating the Sabbath, because 
she is to be considered only as an animal" (SCHULCHAN ARUCH, ORACH CHAIM 
330 -- quoted in JUDAISM IN ACTION p. 200).
	"The Jews are human beings, but the nations of the world are not 
human being just beasts: (BABA MECA 11,6 -- code of the Jews).
	"Everything a Jew needs for his church ritual no goy is permitted 
to manufacture, but only a Jew because this must be manufactured by human 
beings and the Jew is not permitted to consider the goyim as human beings 
" (SCHUDCHAN ARUCH, ORACH CHAIM 14, 20, 33, 39. TALMUD JEBOMOTH 61 -- 
IBIDEM).
	"On the house of the goy one looks as upon the fold of cattle" 
(TOSEFTA, ERUBIN VII,2 -- IBIDEM).
	"The souls of the non-Jewish people come from the devil such as 
the cattle and animals have.  The seed of the stranger is also cattle 
seed" (SCHELA TAL.  4.2, MEMCHEM  P. 53 f. 221-JUDAISM IN ACTION p. 197). 
 This means that killing a Christian is no different than killing a cow 
as far as the Pharisee Jew is concerned.
	"Marriages taking place among Gentiles have no binding strength: 
their cohabitation us just as the coupling of horses, therefore their 
children do not stand as humanly related to their parents" (SCHULCHAN 
ARUCH -- IBIDEM).  This means Christian children may be killed and used 
for whatever purposes they may choose as in ritual murder and medical 
experiments.
	"Although the people of the world outwardly resemble Jews, they 
are actually only as apes din comparison with men" (Schene Lucohoth 
Ha'berith -- ibidem).
	"When the Messiah comes every Jew will have 2,800 slaves: (SIMEON 
HADDARSEN fol. 56-d -- The Code of the Jews).
	"God created them in the form of men for the glory of Israel.  
But Akum (Christians) were created for the sole end of ministering unto 
them (the Jews) day and night.  Nor can they ever be relieved of this 
service.  It is becoming to the son of a king (an Israelite) that animals 
in their natural form, and animals in the form of human beings (i.e., 
non-Jews, Christians, R.G.) should minister unto him" (MIDRASCH, TALPIOTH 
FOL 225d -- THE TALMUD UNMASKED p.50)
	"The Jews were created to be served by the non-Jews.  The latter 
must plow, sow, seed, dig, mow, bind, sieve and grind.  The Jews were 
created to find all this in readiness (BERCHOTH -- JUDAISM IN ACTION 201)

		END OF PART ONE.  PART TWO WILL INCLUDE TOPICS SUCH AS 
'THE TALMUD AND KILLING CHRISTIANS", " RENOUNCING THE NEW TESTAMENT?" AND 
"MODERN DAY JEWS AND JESUS".

-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sun Jul 28 07:10:20 PDT 1996
Article: 53832 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Luther and the Jews Pt 3
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 19:18:26 -0700
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bud wrote:
> 
> >
> > Understand that I wanted to avoid beginning this, but since Mr. Keren and
> > others are now obviously beginning to attempt to bring this issue into
> > the Christian Newsgroup I sincerely believe it is time to have a balance
> > in this regard, especially since I have alse been noticing some postings
> > about Hitler being a Christian, etc.  I believe it is time and I hope all
> > or most of the sincere Christians will understand why this should be
> > done... And, I also hope that this can cease somewhere along the line...

Part 3 begins:
The following is an article that appeared in "The Christian News".  It 
was entitled "Luther and the Jews" and written by Pastor R. H. Goetjen.  
There are some striking samples of information that would seem 
particularly relevant to the alt.revisionism newsgroup.  Because of the 
length of the article, It is presented here in Three parts.  This is part 
number three. You can contact "The Christian News" at: 3277 Boeuf 
Lutheran Road, New Haven, MO 63069; or, you can email them at: 
otten@aol.com.

		HOLOCAUST PROPAGANDA
	The men who are spreading the Holocaust propaganda are Pharisee 
Jews.  they have already prayed for forgiveness in advance for breaking 
their vows and oaths.  It their oaths are not to be trusted, can we trust 
anything they say, especially when the can reap millions, yea, billions 
of dollars from making people believe their propaganda?  Or, shall we 
believe historical researchers who are known for their integrity and have 
nothing materially to gain for standing up for the truth but have to face 
persecution at the hand of the Jews and government officials who are 
under Jewish influence?
	Douglas Reed in his book FAR AND WIDE gives us the following 
information: "Thus the WORLD ALMANAC for 1947 (two years after the war's 
end) printed such Jewish supplied 'estimates', which gave the world's 
population of Jews in 1939, when the war began, at 15,688,259...
	"In 1948 the New Your Times (a Jewish owned newspaper) published 
what was offered as authoritative, statistical article, which stated that 
the figure of Jewish world population for the year 1948 was between 
15,700,000 and 18,600,000" (p. 310 & 312).
	We naturally ask, How could that be, if the Germans killed 
6,000,000 Jews?  It would appear that the Pharisee Jews forgot that 
Christians can also figure.  Thus by 1950 and 1951 the estimates were 
changed to allow for Hitler's alleged "Holocaust."  The 1939 estimated 
figure was beefed up about a million and the figure for 1951 was cut down 
to 11,303,350.  Apparently Hitler and the Germans killed the 6,000.000 
Jews somewhere between 1948 and 1950 or 1951, some three to five years 
after Hitler was dead and the Allies were occupying Germany.
	"Doubtless, several thousand Jewish persons did die in the course 
of the Second 'World War, but this must be seen in the context of a war 
that cost many millions of innocent victims on all sides.  To put the 
matter into perspective, for example, we may point out that 700,000 
Russian civilians died during the siege of Leningrad, and a total of 
2,050,000 German civilians were killed by Allied air raids and forced 
repatriation after the war.  In 1955, another neutral Swiss source, DIE 
TAT of Zurich (January 19, 1955), in a survey of all Second World War 
casualties based on figures on the International Red Cross put the 'Loss 
of victims of persecution because of politics, race or religions who died 
in prisons and concentration camps between 1939 and 1945' at 300,000, not 
all of whom were Jews and this figure seems the most accurate assessment" 
(DID SIX MILLION REALLY DIE by Richard Harwood, p. 28).  Note the report 
said "died" not "were killed".  Many thousands of inmates died toward the 
end of the war because of typhus which was caused in part by lack of 
food.
	The World Center of Contemporary Jewish documentation puts the 
number of Jews under German control when German occupied territory was at 
its widest at 5,294,000.  This figure, however, includes the 2,000,000 
Jews which were in western Russia and the Baltic States, the majority of 
which were evacuated east of the Ural mountains.  This it is unlikely 
that more than 4,000,000 Jews ever were under Hitler's control.  How many 
of these 4,000,000 Jews survived after 1945?  By 1965 there were 
3,375,000 persons who claimed compensation from the West German 
government for having suffered under the Nazis between 1939 and 1945.  
Most of these claimants were Jews.
	There is in existence an order by Himmler dated Dec. 28, 1942: 
"The death rate in the concentration camps must be reduced at all costs." 
 Too many were dying of disease and thus cutting down the labor force.  
On Sept. 30, 1943 Himmler was informed that the death rate had been 
reduced from 8.5% to 2.8% (see Holocaust News 1982)
			$50,000 REWARD
	The Institute For Historical Review offered $50,000 to anyone who 
could prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that the Nazis exterminated 
millions of Jews during World War II in gas chambers, primarily at 
Auschwitz.  Only three people filled out the claim form in an attempt to 
prove the case and win the money.  It turned out that none of the three 
had any real evidence to present.  See special Report published by the 
Institute For Historical Review entitled NAZI GASSING A MYTH? A NEW LOOK 
AT THE HOLOCAUST.
	But let us digress a minute.  Why all this concern about the 
"alleged" six million Jews supposedly killed and little and/or no concern 
about the sixty million and more non-Jews that were slain by the Soviets 
behind the iron curtain?  Are six million Jews somehow worth much more 
than sixty million non-Jews?  Or do we perhaps subscribe to the principle 
that Jews alone are human beings and the goyim are beasts, and therefore 
killing sixty million non-Jews is no more than killing so many cattle?
	The Pharisee Jews who engineered and financed the Russian 
Revolution followed the Talmudic principle: "Even the best of the goyim 
should be killed."  All the non-Jewish intelligentsia were put to death 
for no other reason than that they were "the best of the goyim" and might 
become leaders against them.  Thus essentially only the non-leader class 
of the goyim were permitted to live.
	Donald Day in his book ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS when speaking of 
the Cheka (no K.G.B) states: "it was this organization which 
systematically massacred all members: men, women, children, of the upper 
and middle classes in Russia.  The Jews applied terror to all classes of 
the population.  It was used to enable them to obtain complete control 
over the people living in Russia" (p. 94).
	Donald Day calls the liberal clique in this country which 
defended the Bolshevist atrocities and held protest meetings, collected 
funds, employed lawyers to defend communists and revolutionaries the 
"unintelligentsia." He said that they have become senile and raving 
lunatics.  They defend the communists but brand the person who condemns 
the Jew, the Communist, the Communist International, or the Soviet 
government as a traitor to society.   Mr. Day, who was a foreign 
correspondent in Europe before and during the World War II for the 
Chicago Tribune, points out:
	"The unintelligentsia was one of the first classes to be 
thoroughly and systematically liquidated by the Jewish terror.  All 
Russian liberal leaders, and this included the Social Democratic Party, 
were exterminated.  The portent of this action was never grasped by the 
unintelligentsia abroad.  That is, if with the assistance of their 
efforts a communist regime should be established in their own country 
THEY WOULD BE ONE OF THE FIRST CLASSES TO BE PURGED FROM THE RANKS OF 
SOCIETY.  THIS SEEMINGLY HAS NEVER ENTERED THEIR THOUGHTS"  (p. 96) 
(emphasis added).
	When it comes to atrocities, reports by men of honesty and 
integrity reveal the horrible and incredible cruelties which were 
inflicted on the Russians who were unwilling to bow to the Pharisee Jew 
communist tyranny.  Mr. Zinovieff (Jew name -- Apfelbaum) in a speech 
reported in the NORTHERN COMMUNE, published in Petrograd on September 19, 
1918, No. 109, made this statement:  "To overcome our enemies we must 
have our own socialist militarism.  We must win over to our side 
90,000,000 of the 100,000,000 of the population of Russia under the 
soviets.  S FOR THE REST, WE HAVE NOTING TO SAY TO THEM, THEY MUST BE 
ANNIHILATED" (quoted in JUDAISM IN ACTION p. 90 -- third book).  In other 
words, from the beginning it was planned to kill 10,000,000 Russians who 
would not go along with Bolshevism.
	THE LONDON TIMES, Nov. 14, 1919, printed a letter written by a 
British officer from Russia to his wife.  Here are a few quotes: "The 
Bolshevists are devils.  I hope to send you copies of 64 official photos 
taken by British officers at Odessa when the town was retaken from the 
Bolshevists ... As no paper will publish them I suggest that you should 
have copies made ... They show men who've been crucified with the torture 
of the human glove.  the victim gets crucified, nails through his elbows. 
 The hands are treated with a solution which shrivels the skin.  the skin 
is cut our with a razor, round the wrist, and peeled off, till it hangs 
by the fingernails -- the 'human skin glove' ... Most of the photos are 
of women.  Women with their breasts cut off to the bone ... We have here 
at headquarters passes issued to Bolshevists by commissaries on occupying 
Ekaterinodar.  These passes authorize the holders to arrest for use of 
the soldiery.  Sixty-two girls were arrested like this and thrown to the 
Bolshevist troops.  Those who struggled were killed quite early on.  The 
rest, when used and finished, were mutilated and thrown dead or dying, in 
the two small rivers flowing through Ekaterinodar. (This reminds one of 
the quotation previously cited from the TALMUD: "A Jew may do to a 
non-Jewess what he can do.  He may treat her as a piece of meat." R.H.G.) 
 In all towns occupied by Bolshevists and reoccupied by us 'slaughter 
houses' are found choked with corpses.  Hundred of 'suspects" men, women 
and children were herded in these -- doors and windows manned and the 
struggling mass fired until most of them were dead or dying.  The doors 
were then locked and left.  The stench in these places, I am told, is 
hair-raising.  These 'slaughter houses' are veritable plague spots and 
have caused widespread epidemics...
	"Unless beaten by us, the Bolshies will beat us... They have 
declared war on Christianity.  The Bible to them is a 
counter-revolutionary book, and to be stamped out.  They are aiming at 
raising all non-Christian countries against the Christian countries.  The 
Bolshevists form about 5% of the population of Russia. -- Jews (80 to 90 
per cent of the commissaries are Jews), Chinese, Letts, Germans, and 
certain of the skilled labor artisans ... Ref. Jews -- In town captured 
by the Bolshevists the only unviolated buildings are the synagogues, 
while churches are used for anything from movie shows to 'slaughter 
houses'.  The Poles, Galacians, and Petlura have committed 'pograms 
(slaughter of Jews).  Not the Russian Volunteer Armies under Denikin.  
Denikin has, in fact, been so strict in protecting the Jews that he has 
been accused by his sympathizers of favoring them.  If, however, a 
commissary, steeped in murder, with torture and rape, with mutilation, 
happens to be a Jew, as most of them are, should he receive exceptional 
treatment??" (Quoted from JUDAISM IN ACTION p. 91 & 92 -- third book).
			KILLING THE GERMANS
	"The Germans are not human beings.  From now on the word German 
means to us the most terrible death.  -- if you have not killed at least 
one German a day, you have wasted the day -- if you kill one German, kill 
another.  There is nothing so amusing to us than a heap of German 
corpses..."
	Kill, nothing in Germany is guiltless, neither the living nor the 
yet unborn.  Follow the words of Comrad Stalin and crush forever the 
fascist beast in its den.  BREAK THE PRIDE OF THE GERMAN WOMAN.  Take her 
as you legitimate booty.  Kill, you brace soldiers of the victorious 
Soviet Army."
	The above quotations are the words of Ilja Ehrenburg, a follower 
of the Talmudic faith and propaganda minister of the Soviet Union during 
World War II.  These words were taken quite literally by the Red hordes  
of the Soviet army as they invaded Germany toward the close of the war as 
the following quotations of an eye witness reveals:
	"We were about 500 girls (Maidens of the Reichsarbeitsdienst -- 
German Labour Service)...
	"Suddenly I heard loud screams and promptly five girls were 
brought in by two Red Armists.  the Commissar ordered them to undress..
	"Now two Poles, clad in trousers only, entered the room.  At 
their sight the girls cried out.  Briskly they seized the first of the 
girls and bent her over with her back over the edge of the table until 
her joints cracked.  I almost fainted when one of the men pulled his 
knife and cut off her right breast in the presence of the other girls.  I 
have never heard a woman scream as desperately as this young woman.  
After this 'operation' both men stabbed her several times in the abdomen, 
accompanied again by the howling of the Russians...
	"One girl had not undressed completely, she may also have been 
somewhat older than the rest of the girls who were about 17 years old.  
One of the torturers soaked her bra with oil and ignited it and, while 
she cried out, another drove a thin rod into her vagina until it emerged 
at her navel...
	"As I learned later on, approximately 2,000 girls were murdered 
during the first three days of the first round of Russian occupation."  
The author of this eye witness report was and is a citizen of Brazil.  
The Germans briefly retook the town where these horrors took place and 
thus her life was spared.  The above quotation is taken from a pamphlet, 
COLD BLOODED MURDER A.D. 1945, and eye witness report by Leonora Giere -- 
available from LIBERTY BELL PUBLICATIONS, box 21, Reedy, W. VA. 25270
		PHARISEE JEWS FINANCE COMMUNIST REVOLUTIONS
	That the Bolshevists and/or Communist revolutions of Eastern 
Europe were revolutions instigated, engineered and financed by 
anti-Christ Pharisee Jews is not commonly known.  This, of course, 
reveals the control that the Pharisee Jews and their sympathizers and 
dupes have over the mass media and our educational and Christian 
institutions.  Many books have been written about this subject but these 
are ignored by the mass media, and most of these books are not allowed in 
public libraries, nor in the libraries of our educational Church 
institutions.  One of the biggest problems is that many of those who know 
these things lack the courage to do anything about it, so the Christians 
are in danger of losing by default to the anti-Christian forces.
	In his little book, USSR UNDER JEWISH RULE, Petrov, one who 
escaped from behind the iron Curtain, maintained that the Pharisee Jew 
rulers of Russia tried to hide the fact that they were Jews (e.g., by 
taking on Russian names) not only form the outside world but even from 
the Russian people.  We asked a Christian who had escaped from Russia if 
the people in the Soviet Union knew who their rulers were.  he answered, 
"In Russia the people say, 'The Jews are the rulers.'"
	Books which reveal that the Pharisee Jews are in control in the 
Soviet Union are really available.  BEHIND COMMUNISM by Frank Britton, 96 
pages, is easy to read and gives background history for the Russian 
Revolution.  THE RULERS OF RUSSIA by Denis Fahey, C.S.Sp, D.D., 
D.Ph.,B.A., 100 pages, gives the names of the Jewish rulers of the Soviet 
Union in its early years.  In 1935 "The Central Committed of the 
Communist party in Moscow, the very center of international communism, 
consisted of 59 members, of whom 56 were Jews, and the other three were 
married to Jewesses." (p. 35).
	Then there is the book THE PLOT AGAINST THE CHURCH by Maurice 
Pinay, 710 pages.  Part 1 (60 pages) has been reprinted separately -- THE 
SECRET DRIVING FORCE BEHIND COMMUNISM -- and contains the information 
about who is ruling the Soviet Union.  The authors list all the officials 
of Lenin's government giving each man's pedigree.  here are a few summary 
quotes:
	"At present according to confirmed data 80% to d90% of the key 
positions in all ministries in Moscow and in the remaining Soviet 
Republics are occupied by Jews...
	"As  in Russia the countries in Europe where Bolshevism has 
gained control, are also ruled by Jewish minority; the latter always 
appears in the direction of the Communist government with iron criminal 
and merciless hand, so as to attain the utter enslaving of the native 
citizens through an insignificant group of Jews' (pg. 70 &  71).
	As the Pharisee Jew Bolshevists planned and executed the most 
horrible holocaust in Russian and in other countries taken over by them, 
so they have something similar planned for America...
			ANNE FRANK'S DIARY -- A FAKE
	ANNE FRANK'S DIARY has proven to be a fake.  "Court appointed 
technical examiners found that parts of the Diary manuscript -- accepted 
as being in the same handwriting as the rest by a court in 1960 -- were 
written in a ball point pen ink not available until 1951.  So clearly 
since the 1951 additions are in the same handwriting as the rest of the 
DIARY, it is evident that the DIARY wasn't written by Anne Frank but by 
someone else after the war.  It is a FAKE."  (See Holocaust News 1982).
	"There is no documentary evidence of the 'Holocaust', as Dr. 
Aryeh Leon Kubovy, Director of the World Center of Contemporary Jewish 
Documentation Tel Aviv admitted in La Terre Retrouvee (16 Dec. 1960):
	"There exists no document signed by Hitler, Himmler or Heydrich 
speaking of exterminating the Jews.'"
	"In the hundreds of tons of German documents that fell into 
Allied hands including the most secret records there is not one mention 
of any 'extermination plan' for the Jews or any other ethnic group.
	"There are no eye witness accounts which would stand up in any 
British or American Court of Law.  Most 'eye-witness' accounts are mere 
hearsay" (ibidem).
			QUESTIONING HOLOCAUST
	Permit us to list a few who question the Holocaust story:
	"Jewish publisher Bezalel Chaim of New York, Editor of 
REVISIONIST PRESS, which circulates literature questioning the Holocaust 
story.
	"Jewish writer Josef Ginsburg who under the pseudonym 'J.G. Burg' 
wrote of his experiences as a deportee in Nazi custody from Rumania to 
Russia.  Because, as an eyewitness and a concentration inmate, he denied 
that the Holocaust had happened, he was savagely beaten by Zionist thugs 
whilst visiting his wife grave in a Jewish cemetery in Munich.
	"Jewish writer Dr. Alfred M. Lilienthal, a former U.S. State  
Department official and now editor of the anti-Zionist magazine MIDDLE 
EAST PERSPECTIVE.  Dr. Lilienthal is the author of the classic best 
seller THE ZIONIST CONNECTION (1978) which exposed Zionist power in 
America.  he has exposed the DIARY OF ANNE FRANK as a forgery.
	"French resistance hero, Professor Paul Rassinier, a Socialist 
and a former inmate of Buchenwald.  he was awarded the French Resistance 
Medal and was post-war Socialist Deputy in the French parliament.  
Professor Rassinier was one of the first academics to publicly challenge 
the 'holocaust' story in a series of scholarly works.  He died in 1967" 
(ibidem).
	Many other distinguished men could be listed.
			THE SALVATION OF THE JEWS
	Can the Pharisee Jews be saved without believing in Jesus Christ? 
 Are they saved because they hold to the Old Testament Covenant?  Are 
they God's chosen people?  One glance at the quotations from the Talmud 
quoted earlier should convince the most skeptical that the followers of 
the Talmud do not hold to the Old Testament Covenant.  Jesus Himself 
pointed out that the Traditions of the Elders nullified the Commandments 
of God.  See Mt. 15: 1-9 and Mark 7: 1-13.  Jesus also denied that the 
Pharisees, the followers of the Traditions of the Elders (now known as 
the Talmud), were Abraham's children and called them "of your father, the 
devil". See John 8:39-44.
	Can those be saved who live by the moral standard set forth in 
the Talmud?  Jesus said, 'But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the 
abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and 
idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth 
with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Rev. 21:8)
	Like all the rest of us, unless the Pharisees repent and believe 
the Gospel there is no room in heaven for them.  this is why we 
Christians should also work and pray for the conversion and salvation of 
the Pharisee Jews.  Let us remember that the Lord converted the Pharisee 
Saul and made of him the Apostle Paul, who no doubt was the greatest 
Christian missionary of all time.  With God all things are possible.

(Note: There was  more continuance of the Christian evangelical message 
and a warning to this nation before the article posted came to a 
conclusion.  While I think there was much validity to the evanglical 
message, etc., and something to pray for, I think that for this newsgroup 
the entire preceding parts 1,2, and 3 are EXTREMELY relevant to this 
group and present some genuine challenges to those "out there".  Let he 
who has an ear hear...)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sun Jul 28 07:10:21 PDT 1996
Article: 53841 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Luther and the Jews pt 2
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 1996 19:14:05 -0700
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> 
> Understand that I wanted to avoid beginning this, but since Mr. Keren and
> others are now obviously beginning to attempt to bring this issue into
> the Christian Newsgroup I sincerely believe it is time to have a balance
> in this regard, especially since I have alse been noticing some postings
> about Hitler being a Christian, etc.  I believe it is time and I hope all
> or most of the sincere Christians will understand why this should be
> done... And, I also hope that this can cease somewhere along the line...

Part two begins:
The following is an article that appeared in "The Christian News".  It 
was entitled "Luther and the Jews" and written by Pastor R. H. Goetjen.  
There are some striking samples of information that would seem 
particularly relevant to the alt.revisionism newsgroup.  Because of the 
length of the article, It is presented here in Three parts.  This is part 
number two. You can contact "The Christian News" at: 3277 Boeuf Lutheran 
Road, New Haven, MO 63069; or, you can email them at: otten@aol.com.

	Do the Jews today still hope to enslave the Gentile population?  
Rabbi Emmanuel Rabinovich in a speech before the Emergency Council of 
European Rabbis in Budapest, Hungary, Jan. 12, 1952 made the following 
statement:  "I can safely promise you that before ten years have passed, 
our race will take its rightful place in the world, with every Jew a 
king, and every Christian a slave" (MULLIN'S HISTORY OF THE JEWS BY 
Eustace Mullins p. 128).  A copy of this speech in Yiddish fell into the 
hands of a Jewish Lawyer by the name of Henry Klein, who being horrified 
at what he read translated the speech and made copies and spread them 
abroad.  This reportedly caused them to postpone their plans.
	"As soon as the King Messiah will declare himself, he will 
destroy Rome and make it a wilderness... Then he will start a merciless 
war on non-Jews and will overpower them.  He will slay them in masses, 
kill their kings and lay waste the whole Roman land.  He will say to the 
Jews: 'I am the Kind Messiah for whom you have been waiting.  Take the 
silver and the gold from the goyim'" (JOSIAH 60,6.  Rabbi Abtrabanel to 
Daniel, 7,13--The code of the Jews).
	"even the best of the Goim (non-Jews) should be killed" (ABHODAH 
ZARAH 26B TOSEPHOTH -- THE TALMUD UNMASKED p. 82).  This means that 
Christians and other non-Jews who have leadership ability should be 
killed when the Jew Pharisees take over the country by way of a communist 
revolution.
	"Take the life of the Kliphoth and kill them, and you will please 
God the same as if he offers incense to Him" (SEPHER or ISRAEL (117b) -- 
ibidem).
	"Extermination of Christians is a necessary sacrifice" (ZOHAR II, 
43a -- JUDAISM IN ACTION p. 198f.).
	":The Christian birthrate must be materially diminished" (ZOHAR 
II 64b -- ibidem).
	"Every foreigner (non-Jew) who glorifies Sunday must be killed 
without asking him" (SANHEDRIN -- ibidem).
	"It is permitted to kill a Jewish denunciator everywhere.  It is 
permitted to kill him even before he was denounced" (SCHULCHAN ARUCH, 
CHOSCHEN HAMISCHPATH 338 -- ibidem).
	"He who sheds the blood of the goyim is offering a sacrifice to 
God" (TALMUD, Jaiqut Simeoni -- ibidem).
			TALMUD AND KILLING CHRISTIANS
	The Talmud recommends that Christians should be killed and 
exterminated.  Neither Luther nor this write have ever recommended that 
any Jews should be killed because he is a Jew.  We rather desire their 
repentance and salvation.
	Elizabeth Dilling in her commentary on the photostatic 
reproductions from the Talmud as it deals with Christ and Christians 
states in the following on p. 50:  "The ultimate infamy in Talmudic 
Judaism is Christ, and the target of all Talmudic hatred is not just 'the 
people who are line and ass -- slaves who are considered the property of 
the master' (KETH. IIIa).  The docile 'asses' willing to be saddled and 
used will be used as burden bearers for the masters.  But of all the 
recalcitrant 'asses' the Christians are the most insanely hated and 
loathed because their doctrines are the reverse of every Talmud doctrine. 
 They rank not just animals like the rest of the non-Talmudic humanity, 
but as vermin to be eradicated.  Language is exhausted to find foul and 
hated names for Christians in the Talmud.
	"Under the name of 'Balaam' the most lewd passages concerning 
Jesus appear.  PROOF THAT JESUS IS CALLED 'BALAAM' is found in the JEWISH 
ENCYCLOPEDIA (Balaam) which, after enumerating loathsome qualities, 
states; 'Hence . . . the pseudonym 'Balaam' given to Jesus in Sanhedrin 
106b and Gitten 57a'" (p. 50).  Mrs Dilling provides the Photostat of the 
pages from the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA where the above quotation is found.
	According to the book SANHEDRIN Jesus' (Balaam's) mother is "she 
who. . . played the harlot with carpenters. . .They subjected him to four 
deaths, stoning, burning, decapitation and strangulation. . .he was 
thirty-three or thirty-four years old'. . . The footnote explains: 
'Balaam is frequently used in the Talmud as a type of Jesus'" (OP.CIT., 
p. 51)
	"JESUS IN HELL where his punishment is "boiling hot semen'" 
(GITTEN 57a, Exh. 202-Dilling p. 51).
	"CHRISTIANS IN HELL in above passages punish by 'boiling 'hot 
excrement' which is the punishment of all who mock 'at the words of the 
sages'" (ibidem).
	"Jesus in INDEX OS SANHEDRIN, 'chief depository of the criminal 
law of the Talmud (see Dilling Exh. 43), showing page numbers where He is 
denounced.  Check with reproductions Exhib. 118'" (ibidem).  A check with 
Exh. 118 reveals that Jesus is referred to eight times in this one book 
of the Talmud.
	the JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA (p. 170) also treats of Jesus, calls 
Jesus illegitimate and a bastard.  "Rabbinical sources regard Jesus as 
the 'son of Pandera' ...although it is also noteworthy that he is also 
called Ben Strada" (Dilling - Exh. 277 and 278).  Jesus is repeatedly 
accused of practicing magic or witchcraft.
			MODERN DAY JEWS AND JESUS
	Do modern day Jews still hold to such views of Jesus Christ?  
Here is what one of them has written:  "One of the finest things ever 
done by the mob was the crucifixion of Christ.  Intellectually it was a 
splendid gesture.  But trust the mob to bungle.  If I'd had charge of the 
executing Christ I'd have handled him differently.  You see, what I'd 
have done was had him shipped to Rome and fed him to the lions.  They 
never could have made a Savior out of excrement" (A JEW IN LOVE by Ben 
Hecht, quoted in JUDAISM IN ACTION p. 114)
	The JEWISH ENCYCLOPEDIA p. 281 furnishes evidence that Jews in 
their synagogues do indeed curse the Christians in their "petition 
against enemies", also called "imprecatory appeal", a curse which is 
directed among others against the "mimim" which the encyclopedia 
identifies as the "Judeo-Christian" (i.e., Jews who converted to 
Christianity -- ibidem, EXH. 284)
	Elizabeth Dilling summarizes these cursings thus: "The 
'religious' Jew recites the 'Eighteen Benedictions' or 'Shemonoeth 
Esreh', three times weekdays, four times on holidays and Sabbaths, the 
7th and the 12th of which curse Christians and non-Jews to hell and 
perdition.  This the 'good orthodox Jew' gives us Christiand 6 cursings 
on ordinary days, 8 on specials" (ibidem, p. 60).  Here we see why Luther 
deplored the Jewish cursing of Christians and Christ.
			RENOUNCE THE NEW TESTAMENT?
	Now we ask our readers, is there anyone of you who is not opposed 
to such "Jewish Culture'? Is it wrong to be "anti-" i.e. against the 
Pharisee Jews who hold to such devilish religious principles?  Remember, 
if you want to condemn Luther for his anti-Pharisee Jew remarks and 
treatises, then you must also condemn Jesus Christ for His anti-Pharisee 
Jew stance too.  If you believe we mist apologize for Luther's 
anti-Pharisaim, we will also have to apologize and renounce Christ's 
condemnation of the Pharisees.  They you must also renounce the New 
Testament.  A certain Jewish Rabbi by the name of Coffee declared that 
the NEW TESTAMENT is the most anti-Semitic book ever written (THE 
INTERNATIONAL JEW, VOL II, JEWISH ACTIVITIES IN THE UNITED STATES by 
Henry Ford, p. 181).
	Other rabbis have also with impunity made similar statements.  
The London Free Press stated Feb. 17, 1964, "'The Christian Gospels do 
much to encourage anti-Semitism,' Rabbi Feinberg said here yesterday."  
And the Oregonian of April 1, 1956 reported" "Rabbi Juliou J. Nodel in 
the role of defense attorney for the Jews of the world Friday night 
branded the New Testament a work of malicious libel."
	Actually, to try to insult a Christian by calling him 
anti-Semitic would be like a person during World War II trying to insult 
a patriotic American by calling him anti-Fascist or anti-Nazi.  And 
anyone who would have tried such a stunt would have been judged as being 
out of his right mind, and rightly so.  Likewise those who try to smear 
and insult true Christians who wish to maintain that they are not 
anti-Semitic.  The Pharisee Jews are not so foolish as to maintain that 
they are not anti-Christian.
	Maj.-Gen, Count Cherep-Spiridovich expresses his opinion this: 
"Whoever forgets or omits the Jewish question, be it through ignorance, 
or fear, is unfit to be a preacher, teacher or official" (THE SECRET 
WORLD GOVERNMENT or THE HIDDEN HAND), Dr. Martin Luther passed this test.
	Did Jesus say too much when he denounced the Pharisees as 
hypocrites, whited sepulchers, as of their father the devil, etc.?  Jesus 
is our example that we should walk in his steps (1 Pet. 2:21).   Can we 
be followers of Jesus Christ without opposing the enemies of God even as 
Jesus did?  We note that King David also hated God's enemies with a 
perfect hatred (Ps. 139: 21,22).  The seer Jehu announced that God's 
wrath was up King Jehoshaphat because the king helped the ungodly and 
loved them that hate the LORD (2 Chron. 19:2).
	Jesus said, "He that is not with Me, is against Me."  If we are 
not with Christ in condemning the Pharisee Jews, then we are against 
Christ, i.e., anti-Christ.  The choice is between being anti-Pharisee or 
being anti-Christ.  We cannot be both for God and for the devil.  So we 
also cannot be both for the Son of God and for the sons of the devil.
		LUTHER DENOUNCING PHARISEE JEWS
	Luther made his choice.  Like King David he chose to be against 
God's enemies.  He, like Jesus Christ, denounced the Pharisee Jews in no 
uncertain terms.  he followed in the footsteps of his Saviour.  As Christ 
denounced the Pharisees in the hearing of His disciples to protect them 
>from  "the leaven of the Pharisees" (MT. 16:6-12), so Luther also preached 
and wrote against the Pharisee Jews of his day to protect his followers 
>from  such liars, deceivers, blasphemers and cursers of Christ and 
Christians.
	To my knowledge, no one has ever attempted to prove that Luther 
was guilty of making false charges against the Jews.  On the contrary, 
the only charge that his accusers try to make about Luther is that of 
opposing or "hating" the Jews, even though Luther always indicated his 
desire to see the Jews converted and saved.  The problem today seems to 
be that all too many Christians have lost the virtue of righteous 
indignation as this is taught in Holy Scripture and which Jesus Christ 
"Who did no sin" practised in His ministry.  In fact, many "Christians" 
consider righteous indignation a sin.  This makes Jesus Christ a sinner.
	All that Christian need to protect their good name is laws 
against slander and libel.  Slander is oral false witness or lies.  Libel 
is written false witness or lies.  A criminal's good name cannot be 
protected by laws against slander and libel.  His opponents by telling 
the truth about him either orally or in writing can take away his good 
name.  Criminals need laws against "hate" and/or "racism", or 
"anti-Semitism", then the law abiding citizen goes to jail and the 
criminal or criminal group can go free.  In the Soviet Union the law 
abiding citizen does not just go to jail but is put to death, if he is 
found guilty of "anti-Semitism" before a secret court.
	Donald Day in his book, ONWARD CHRISTIAN SOLDIERS states: "From 
all over the world Jewish revolutionaries poured into Russia to take 
vengeance upon the Russian people and to help the erection of a new 
imperialist Jewish power, one of whose first decrees was TO MAKE 
ANTI-SEMITISM A CRIME PUNISHABLE BY DEATH" (p. 95. Emphasis added).
	A prominent Pharisee Jew wrote: "With the rise of the Soviet 
regime, the Jews have been granted rights not accorded even the most 
advanced countries.  The state which grievously did not employ the Jews, 
now employs in White Russia 61% Jewish officials.  A Jew is the president 
of the state bank; Jews occupy almost all important ambassadorial 
positions; universities, professions, judiciary and administration now 
have a greater percentage of Jews than any other nationality.  
Anti-Semitism has been declared a state offense, and is punished as 
counter-revolution" (Rabbi Stephen Wise, in JEWISH OPINION, December 
1933).
			"HATE" LAWS
"Hate" laws have been passed in some western countries.  Canada passed a 
"Hate" law about 14 years ago.  Recently a high school teacher was 
arrested because he taught his pupils to look at both sides of the 
question of the "Holocaust".  Because he questioned the alleged fact that 
six million Jews were killed by the Germans in World War II, he may spend 
two years behind iron bars.
	Strangely enough there have been many Christians and so many 
so-called Christians who have been deluded into believing that it is a 
sin for Christians to hate the Pharisee Jews but is no sin for the 
Pharisee Jews to hate Christians, Luther and the Germans.  why is it so 
much more vile to be anti-Pharisee Jew than to be anti-Christ, 
anti-Christian, anti-Luther and/or anti-German?
	Luther never advocated the killing of a single Jew, just as he 
never advocate the killing of a single heretic.  It is true that Luther 
did advise the expulsion of the Jews from the country.  This was not 
something new.  England, for example, had exiled them for 400 years and 
at the time of Luther the Jews were not allowed in England.  Spain had 
exiled the Jews in 1492.  Nearly every country in Europe had expelled the 
Jews at one time or another.  They were not citizens but resident aliens, 
guests.  Because of their wicked Pharisee "culture", the made themselves 
unwelcome guests wherever they went.  We should remember that the U.S.A. 
also reserves the right to expel aliens if they do not live by the laws 
of the land.  Since the Jews did not live by the laws of the land, the 
German prince had every right to expel them, these ungrateful guests, 
>from  his lands.
	"We believe we have shown the immense chasm which separates the 
Jew and the Christian.  Judaism is directly opposed to Christianity.  We 
repeat, then, that in a Christian country the Jew is a danger which must 
be fought, since his religion makes it imperative for him to do things 
prejudicial to the Christian spirit which should dominate our country.
	"Not to want to fight the Jew on religious grounds seems to us a 
serious mistake.  Because, if we do not oppose him on such a ground, we 
acknowledge his right to laws prescribed by his religion ... Consequently 
if we acknowledge his right to be a robber according to his religion, we 
give him the right to rob us.  You may see where such a theory leads us' 
(quoted in WHY WE CHRISTIANS SHOULD OPPOSE JEWS by Dr. P.E. Lalane, M.D., 
Montreal, Canada, p. 10).  We may add that this theory may lead also to 
having them rape our children and women and slaughtering us like cattle.
		RELIGION AND RACE
	This we see that Luther was not alone in seeing the damage that 
is done to a country by the Pharisee Jew and his Babylonian Talmud.  It 
must be remembered that Jews who are sincerely converted to Christianity 
are not responsible for this evil. then there are also Jews who have 
drifted away from Pharisee Jew Talmudic religion and have absorbed the 
Christian values and morals of their Christian neighbors.  They also must 
not be classified with the Pharisee Talmudic Jew.  IT IS NOT THEIR RACIAL 
STOCK BUT THEIR RELIGION WHICH MAKES THE PHARISEE TALMUDIC JEW WHAT HE 
IS.  Some of the bravest opponents to the evils of Zionism and Talmudism 
have come from non-Talmudic Jews.

		End of part two.  Part three, the final part, goes into 
the "Holocaust"


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Sun Jul 28 16:30:33 PDT 1996
Article: 53997 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: I agree with you, Royce
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 13:30:53 -0700
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References: <4ta1v8$7m4@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4tb85c$je6@neptune.myri.com> <4tbhfq$5mi@senator-bedfellow.MIT.EDU>
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Royce Buehler wrote:
> 
> In article <4tb85c$je6@neptune.myri.com>, wen-king@myri.com (Wen-King Su) writes:
> > In a previous article rev1915@ix.netcom.com(Rev) writes:
> >
> > <    I realize when the world's leading expert, after examining the gas
> > >chambers concludes " The was no cyanide used in the gas chambers", that
> >  >
> > So if Fred Leuchter has found cyanide residue in the gas chamber, would
> > you be ready to accept that Jews were being killed in the gas chamber?
> 
> Actually, Leuchter (who has a bachelor's degree in history but no
> known formal chemistry training) said that there *was* cyanide in
> the gas chambers. There was just less on the concrete which had been
> exposed to the elements for forty-five years than he found in the
> chamber where the same gas was used for delousing.
> 
> Since Leuchter knew nothing about chemistry, he assumed that cyanide
> would not be diluted by exposure to decades of rain and acid rain.
> As any chemist could have told him, that's false. He concluded that
> the death chambers originally contained less cyanide than the
> delousing chambers.
> 
> Since Leuchter knew nothing about the use of cyanide, he assumed that
> the lethal dose for humans would be far larger than the lethal dose
> for insects (i.e., lice). As any chemical pathologist could have told
> him - and as anyone may tell by looking up hydrogen cyanide in a
> copy of Merck's Index - that is false. A dose of 300 ppm kills human
> beings in about 20 minutes. A dose of several thousand ppm kills
> roaches in "2 to 72 hours". This is why you are not allowed back
> into your house for a day after the exterminators do their job:
> the stuff will get you a lot faster than it will get the bugs.
> 
> Leuchter was "the world's leading expert" on conning penal institutions
> into believing he had an engineering degree he didn't have. His
> testimony is worthless.
> 
> This has nothing to do with the bible, prophecy, Christianity - in
> short, it doesn't belong on any of these groups. Followups to
> alt.revisionism.
> 
> --
> Royce Buehler   buehler@space.mit.edu   (617)-253-9766
>   "Comme un fou se croit Dieu, nous nous croyons mortels"
>         -- Pierre Delalande

I agree with you, Royce, and I posted a lengthy reply from a Christian 
publication that refutes a lot of "stuff" but in actuality this sort of 
thing does not belong in this Bailiwick -- unless they cross over -- then 
as I said, I'm going to respond.  There's lots of controversy out there 
about this issue.  I think both sides have an "axe to grind" and so it's 
difficult to get at the truth.  Either way, what has it got to do with 
the Gospel?  All Jews are not commies, and all Christians are not nazis, 
and who cares if Hitler CLAIMED to be a Christian?  No more of this, I 
hope...
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)


From budwrite@mail.gte.net Wed Jul 31 13:57:57 PDT 1996
Article: 54490 of alt.revisionism
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From: bud 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bible.prophecy,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian
Subject: Re: Mr. Keren also ignores this aspect
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 20:52:28 -0700
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tom moran wrote:
> 
> abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels) wrote:
> 
> >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
> >>I personally don't know what Leuchter's qualifications are, but it is
> >>evident he did some test at Auschwitz. Keren says here "Leuchter
> >>himself states very clearly ..." that there were cyanide traces found
> >>at Auschwitz, seeming to use Leuchter himself as a reliable source.
> >
> >Grah! I can't believe it. This great paladine of revisionism hasn't even
> >_read_ the Leuchter report!
> 
>         Were does it say I never read the report? Personally I have
> stated before that I think it is inconclusive. I posted that under
> "Cyanide Traces at Auschwitz Today" along with my critique of the
> Crackow Report, of which I said the same thing.
>         You read words, then report on what you read right under the
> material that your reading on, where your interpretation is not
> supported by the text. That's what happens when little boys get snide.
> They blurt out. Mindless like.

Actually, what's the big deal?  All the posting said was that the Krakow 
people confirmed Leuchter's report, but also indicated (as you said) that 
the report was inconclusive because there was no way of knowing for sure 
how long certain amounts of traces would be remaining after so long a 
time.  Once again, this incredible overreaction and accusatory remarks by 
anyone who "dares" to question the one-sided opinion of those events in 
WW2?  It is this attitude that gives me cause to wonder about the 
validity of many of the other stories.  Like I've said since I got 
involved in this, I think the truth is somewhere betweenst, because both 
sides of the issue appear to have an ax to grind.  

"There are three sides to every divorce: His, Hers, and the truth!"
-- 
"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)

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