The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/f/fleisher.bud/1996/fleisher.0696


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Sun Jun  2 16:37:18 PDT 1996
Article: 83703 of alt.censorship
Message-ID: <31B23A5B.15E5@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 18:05:31 -0700
From: Bud 
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Subject: Re: Christianity, Should We Respect It?
References: <-1605960807020001@pool004.max1.san-diego.ca.dynip.alter.net> <4nqgp3$4ub@crash.microserve.net> <4nr473$l77@kaleka.seanet.com> <31A17717.B9F@infinet.com> <4nrp4f$ka5@shellx.best.com> <31A36793.42C1@infinet.com> <4o606k$nt2@news.getnet.com> 
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zoner@autobaun.com wrote:
> 
> In article <4o606k$nt2@news.getnet.com> 74644.2176@compuserve.com (Rich Bennett) writes:
> >From: 74644.2176@compuserve.com (Rich Bennett)
> >Subject: Re: Christianity, Should We Respect It?
> >Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 03:54:44 GMT
> 
> >The Mediator  wrote:
> 
> >>Donald Cantrell wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In article <31A17717.B9F@infinet.com>,
> >>> The Mediator   wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Do not assume one a satanist, just because one does not serve your
> >>> >> jesus christ almighty.  I am neither satanist nor christian because i
> >>> >> don't believe in your god, nor do i believe in the god of satanists.
> >>> >> And no, assumption king, that does not make me an atheist either.
> >>> >
> >>> >My question is if you don't worship "the Christian" God and you don't
> >>> >worship the god of Satanists, which "god" do you believe in and where do
> >>> >you get your information? At least Christians know where their
> >>> >information comes from "The Word of God", the Bible. Or did you just
> >>> >conjure it up in your head as most do. Tell us without doubt that your
> >>> >god exists. What benefit do you get from your god? Can he save you?
> >>> >Where are you going when you die? How do you know?
> >>> >
> >>> >Just curious
> >>>
> >>> You are so left-brained and literal I don't even know where to start.
> >>> You mean if it isn't written anywhere it can't be true?
> >>> The Christian Bible is full of self-contradictions, and different
> >>>     translations of the same passages have different meanings.
> >>> A human wrote the words of the Bible you read, translated from earlier
> >>>     versions in earlier languages.
> >>>
> >>> You ask where we get our 'information'. A more realistic question would
> >>> be, where do we get our 'inspiration'. From the nonverbal realm, a part
> >>> of reality you seem to be unaware of.
> >>>
> >>> Donald Cantrell
> 
> >>How can you trust this non-verbal realm. People have very vivid
> >>imaginations. If you wish to discredit the bible, give me some "facts".
> >>Your argument is based on ignorance. I'll even use non-biblical or
> >>secular documentation. For every so-called error in my belief I can show
> >>you two for yours. Common' give me some substance.
> 
> >>The Mediator
> 
> >Well, since you are so willing, let us discuss the very first book in
> >your bible, Genesis.  I'll even spot you one, and ignore all the
> >blantantly ignorant crap that you believe adequately summarizes the
> >origin of the universe.
> 
> >Let's take your story of the flood, or perhaps more correctly in your
> >ideology, the Flood.
> 
> >1. There is not enough water on this planet for this flood to have
> >occurred.
> 
> >2. There is scant physical evidence such a flood occurred. If such
> >evidence did exist, it would be difficult to determine whether this
> >was proof that your god caused it, or perhaps the humans that wrote
> >your book were simply recording an event caused by a different, true,
> >god. See the Epic of Gilgamesh, for instance.
> 
> >3. There is no way the Ark, as mentioned in your bible, could have
> >held all the animals it is purported to have held.  I'll even ignore
> >for the moment the contradictions contained in your wholly babble -
> >oops, holy bible - regarding the number of beasts to be held (2 by 2?
> >clean beasts by the seven?).  Why does your bible specifically mention
> >that the Ark had but one window?  Do you really believe that one
> >window could have met the needs of all the animals the Ark supposedly
> >held?
> 
> >4.  What about all the animals that need to eat other animals to live?
> >What did Noah feed them for 40 days?
> 
> >5. More contradictions about the landfall of the Ark ignored.
> 
> >6.  The situation after landfall is equally bad.  With only one family
> >on board, incest would have to have occurred for us to exist. Again.
> >(See Adam and Eve legend)
> 
> >7.  How did all the different continents get populated?  Were more
> >boats constructed to get the animals and people to the other
> >continents?
> 
> >8.  Rainbows are a purely scientific phenomonen.  Did your god,
> >knowing his plan for mankind would lead to his having to drown the lot
> >of them, suspend that particular law of physics so that he could make
> >that silly-ass promise about the rainbow being a sign that he would
> >never again do something that there isn't enough raw material to do
> >anyway?
> 
> >Time for your lame apologetics - insert them here. Remember - you said
> >two for one.
> 
> >Rich Bennett
> >"Faith - the ability to believe the ridiculous for the sublime."
> 
> All of these questions can be answered with Scientific evidence in the book
> "The Incredible Discover of Noah's Ark" by Charles E. Sellier and David W.
> Balsiger, ISBN 0-440-21799-7, check it out before making your decision on
> whether The Flood story in Genesis was a myth or not.
> 
> Love in Christ,
> 
> Todd

Mr. Cantrell, I hope you take this advice and begin to read the very 
extensive works, many on a soundly scientific basis, that will answer 
your objections (all of which have been adequately answered for many 
years now over and over again).  You should write to the Institute for 
Creationism in Santee, California.  They have hundreds of tapes, videos 
and books with overwhelming evidence for you to consider.


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Sun Jun  2 21:46:35 PDT 1996
Article: 40740 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <31B1F964.2667@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 13:28:20 -0700
From: Bud 
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Subject: I agree in part
References: <4nrlod$h78@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4nsjgj$jfs@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4nt93t$k8h@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4o29vc$l63@shiva.usa.net> <4o2u3v$btb@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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Matt Giwer wrote:
> 
> hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
> 
> >In article <4nt93t$k8h@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>,
> >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:
> 
> >       Who cares about the rest?
> 
> >Certainly not Mr. Giwer!  He doesn't care about the Jewish victims or
> >any of the other victims of the Nazis, but that does not prevent him
> >from unfairly criticizing those who do care for not caring enough to
> >suit his unreasonable demands.
> 
>         I really do not care if anyone cares or not.  Nothing is going to
> bring any of them back to life.  I am simply pointing out the
> attitude of the holohuggers, that only Jews matter.
> 
>         There is a thing popularly closed closure when it comes to a
> death in the family.  One has to get over it.  If people carried
> on 50 years later about the death of family members the way the
> holohuggers carry on about the holocaust they would be pitied and
> good friends would urge counseling.
> 
> >       They are hardly worth mentioning.
> 
> >And Mr. Giwer only mentions them in order to use them as club to beat
> >Jews with -- the same Jews who are responsible for publicizing the
> >fate of these "others" to the uncaring world, especially the callous
> >Mr. Giwer himself!
> 
>         As you remember, when I first used the tagline about the other
> six million being a footnote, I had to explain who the other six
> million were.
> 
> >       After all, Jews were less than half, so they should be the only
> >       ones remembered.
> 
> >Mr. Giwer said it, but he is trying to blame the rest of us for it!
> 
>         Blame for what?  Who is this "us" you are talking about?  Do you
> have a friend with you while you are typing?
> 
> >       It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
> >       the miracle that so many survived with gassing.
> 
> >For Mr. Giwer, it has never been a matter of how many survived, but
> >how much attention he could get from insulting the memory of the dead.
> 
>         Find a more appropriate conference.
> 
> -----
> 
>      It is not a question of how many died without gassing rather
> the miracle that so many survived with gassing.

While I do not agree with "all" of what Mr. Giwer says, I do agree with 
his objection to this special attention given one group of people.  From 
my last investigations, there were over 60 million casualties from WW2, 
most of the civilians.  I read in several publications where the estimate 
of the German civilian dead (men, women, children too!) was over 15 
million.  If we are going to remember the dead, I don't think it's proper 
to ignore the many other millions who died... And, to be frank, in 
general the media does just this injustice repeatedly -- it's wrong!  
Also, I just fail to see why one could not find "joy" in learning that 
maybe "less" than thought perished.  My God, Gents, think of it--millions 
perhaps who were spared the carnage.  I find this rigid adherence to 
some "magic" figure (such as 6 million) to be almost tantamount to a 
"religious morbidness" with some of the reactions on this news posting.


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Sun Jun  2 21:46:36 PDT 1996
Article: 40742 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <31B1FC1E.38E9@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 13:39:58 -0700
From: Bud 
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Now I don't agree!
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Jason Silverman wrote:
> 
> In article <31a46e3a.3465602@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
> moran) wrote:
> 
> >          4/17/96 in the N.Y. Times the report on the Jews holocaust
> > bombing of Lebanon's vital installations for survival like electrical
> > power plants that operate hospitals and such with American supplied
> > arms, mentioned the Jews eased up for "2 minutes" in respect for
> > Holocaust "Day of  Rememberance.
> >
> >
> >         In the L.A.Times, same day, "Rotunda Rite in Rememberance of
> > Holocaust" it was reported that the main responsible parties for
> > supplying the arms of terrorism to Israel gathered at the Rotunda rite
> > in observance or Day of Rememberance.
> >         "Members of Congress, Jewish leaders and five Supreme Court
> > justices gathered for the 15th Rotunda ceremony ..."
> >
> >         It didn't say how many members of congress attended, but it also
> > reported that "Shortly after, the House passed, 420 - 0, a resolution
> > deploring individuals who deny the historical reality of the
> > Holocaust.
> >         It is probable that attempts were made to have the House ban the
> > right of anyone to deny the "reality" but this is all they dared right
> > now. But it could be a prelude.
> >         In the mean time our congress will be hard at work to see that
> > the Jews get all the things they need to continue their Holocaust in
> > the Mideast.
> 
> tommy,
> 
> Do you really want to announce to all of us in such a forceful manner that
> you are so far from original that you are derivative from the illiterate
> H*ber?  Well, allright, if you insist -- but please be aware that it's one
> thing to be a sheep, but quite another to be a sheep following a month
> behind the rest of the flock.  This useless, meaningless crap was posted
> several weeks ago.  It was a waste of bandwidth then, as it is now.
> 
> Get a fucking clue.
> 
> -JMS


I do not see what the ad homenim attacks agains Tom Moran have to do with 
the issue, Jason.  He expresses his concern over what seems to be a 
biased bent by the news and even the Congress of the U.S.  How much 
legitimacy there is might be in question, but your vulgar, verbal attacks 
on his personality only seem to point out that he is winning his point, 
while you call him names.  I don't agree with your method, Mr. Silverman, 
and as I have said often on this group, it seems that in too many cases 
the attacks are of a personal nature, and fail miserably to answer what 
is being postulated.


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Mon Jun  3 12:07:03 PDT 1996
Article: 102673 of alt.pagan
Message-ID: <31B23A5B.15E5@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 18:05:31 -0700
From: Bud 
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Subject: Re: Christianity, Should We Respect It?
References: <-1605960807020001@pool004.max1.san-diego.ca.dynip.alter.net> <4nqgp3$4ub@crash.microserve.net> <4nr473$l77@kaleka.seanet.com> <31A17717.B9F@infinet.com> <4nrp4f$ka5@shellx.best.com> <31A36793.42C1@infinet.com> <4o606k$nt2@news.getnet.com> 
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zoner@autobaun.com wrote:
> 
> In article <4o606k$nt2@news.getnet.com> 74644.2176@compuserve.com (Rich Bennett) writes:
> >From: 74644.2176@compuserve.com (Rich Bennett)
> >Subject: Re: Christianity, Should We Respect It?
> >Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 03:54:44 GMT
> 
> >The Mediator  wrote:
> 
> >>Donald Cantrell wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In article <31A17717.B9F@infinet.com>,
> >>> The Mediator   wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Do not assume one a satanist, just because one does not serve your
> >>> >> jesus christ almighty.  I am neither satanist nor christian because i
> >>> >> don't believe in your god, nor do i believe in the god of satanists.
> >>> >> And no, assumption king, that does not make me an atheist either.
> >>> >
> >>> >My question is if you don't worship "the Christian" God and you don't
> >>> >worship the god of Satanists, which "god" do you believe in and where do
> >>> >you get your information? At least Christians know where their
> >>> >information comes from "The Word of God", the Bible. Or did you just
> >>> >conjure it up in your head as most do. Tell us without doubt that your
> >>> >god exists. What benefit do you get from your god? Can he save you?
> >>> >Where are you going when you die? How do you know?
> >>> >
> >>> >Just curious
> >>>
> >>> You are so left-brained and literal I don't even know where to start.
> >>> You mean if it isn't written anywhere it can't be true?
> >>> The Christian Bible is full of self-contradictions, and different
> >>>     translations of the same passages have different meanings.
> >>> A human wrote the words of the Bible you read, translated from earlier
> >>>     versions in earlier languages.
> >>>
> >>> You ask where we get our 'information'. A more realistic question would
> >>> be, where do we get our 'inspiration'. From the nonverbal realm, a part
> >>> of reality you seem to be unaware of.
> >>>
> >>> Donald Cantrell
> 
> >>How can you trust this non-verbal realm. People have very vivid
> >>imaginations. If you wish to discredit the bible, give me some "facts".
> >>Your argument is based on ignorance. I'll even use non-biblical or
> >>secular documentation. For every so-called error in my belief I can show
> >>you two for yours. Common' give me some substance.
> 
> >>The Mediator
> 
> >Well, since you are so willing, let us discuss the very first book in
> >your bible, Genesis.  I'll even spot you one, and ignore all the
> >blantantly ignorant crap that you believe adequately summarizes the
> >origin of the universe.
> 
> >Let's take your story of the flood, or perhaps more correctly in your
> >ideology, the Flood.
> 
> >1. There is not enough water on this planet for this flood to have
> >occurred.
> 
> >2. There is scant physical evidence such a flood occurred. If such
> >evidence did exist, it would be difficult to determine whether this
> >was proof that your god caused it, or perhaps the humans that wrote
> >your book were simply recording an event caused by a different, true,
> >god. See the Epic of Gilgamesh, for instance.
> 
> >3. There is no way the Ark, as mentioned in your bible, could have
> >held all the animals it is purported to have held.  I'll even ignore
> >for the moment the contradictions contained in your wholly babble -
> >oops, holy bible - regarding the number of beasts to be held (2 by 2?
> >clean beasts by the seven?).  Why does your bible specifically mention
> >that the Ark had but one window?  Do you really believe that one
> >window could have met the needs of all the animals the Ark supposedly
> >held?
> 
> >4.  What about all the animals that need to eat other animals to live?
> >What did Noah feed them for 40 days?
> 
> >5. More contradictions about the landfall of the Ark ignored.
> 
> >6.  The situation after landfall is equally bad.  With only one family
> >on board, incest would have to have occurred for us to exist. Again.
> >(See Adam and Eve legend)
> 
> >7.  How did all the different continents get populated?  Were more
> >boats constructed to get the animals and people to the other
> >continents?
> 
> >8.  Rainbows are a purely scientific phenomonen.  Did your god,
> >knowing his plan for mankind would lead to his having to drown the lot
> >of them, suspend that particular law of physics so that he could make
> >that silly-ass promise about the rainbow being a sign that he would
> >never again do something that there isn't enough raw material to do
> >anyway?
> 
> >Time for your lame apologetics - insert them here. Remember - you said
> >two for one.
> 
> >Rich Bennett
> >"Faith - the ability to believe the ridiculous for the sublime."
> 
> All of these questions can be answered with Scientific evidence in the book
> "The Incredible Discover of Noah's Ark" by Charles E. Sellier and David W.
> Balsiger, ISBN 0-440-21799-7, check it out before making your decision on
> whether The Flood story in Genesis was a myth or not.
> 
> Love in Christ,
> 
> Todd

Mr. Cantrell, I hope you take this advice and begin to read the very 
extensive works, many on a soundly scientific basis, that will answer 
your objections (all of which have been adequately answered for many 
years now over and over again).  You should write to the Institute for 
Creationism in Santee, California.  They have hundreds of tapes, videos 
and books with overwhelming evidence for you to consider.


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Mon Jun  3 13:53:09 PDT 1996
Article: 103355 of alt.2600
Message-ID: <31B23A5B.15E5@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Sun, 02 Jun 1996 18:05:31 -0700
From: Bud 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
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Subject: Re: Christianity, Should We Respect It?
References: <-1605960807020001@pool004.max1.san-diego.ca.dynip.alter.net> <4nqgp3$4ub@crash.microserve.net> <4nr473$l77@kaleka.seanet.com> <31A17717.B9F@infinet.com> <4nrp4f$ka5@shellx.best.com> <31A36793.42C1@infinet.com> <4o606k$nt2@news.getnet.com> 
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zoner@autobaun.com wrote:
> 
> In article <4o606k$nt2@news.getnet.com> 74644.2176@compuserve.com (Rich Bennett) writes:
> >From: 74644.2176@compuserve.com (Rich Bennett)
> >Subject: Re: Christianity, Should We Respect It?
> >Date: Sat, 25 May 1996 03:54:44 GMT
> 
> >The Mediator  wrote:
> 
> >>Donald Cantrell wrote:
> >>>
> >>> In article <31A17717.B9F@infinet.com>,
> >>> The Mediator   wrote:
> >>> >>
> >>> >> Do not assume one a satanist, just because one does not serve your
> >>> >> jesus christ almighty.  I am neither satanist nor christian because i
> >>> >> don't believe in your god, nor do i believe in the god of satanists.
> >>> >> And no, assumption king, that does not make me an atheist either.
> >>> >
> >>> >My question is if you don't worship "the Christian" God and you don't
> >>> >worship the god of Satanists, which "god" do you believe in and where do
> >>> >you get your information? At least Christians know where their
> >>> >information comes from "The Word of God", the Bible. Or did you just
> >>> >conjure it up in your head as most do. Tell us without doubt that your
> >>> >god exists. What benefit do you get from your god? Can he save you?
> >>> >Where are you going when you die? How do you know?
> >>> >
> >>> >Just curious
> >>>
> >>> You are so left-brained and literal I don't even know where to start.
> >>> You mean if it isn't written anywhere it can't be true?
> >>> The Christian Bible is full of self-contradictions, and different
> >>>     translations of the same passages have different meanings.
> >>> A human wrote the words of the Bible you read, translated from earlier
> >>>     versions in earlier languages.
> >>>
> >>> You ask where we get our 'information'. A more realistic question would
> >>> be, where do we get our 'inspiration'. From the nonverbal realm, a part
> >>> of reality you seem to be unaware of.
> >>>
> >>> Donald Cantrell
> 
> >>How can you trust this non-verbal realm. People have very vivid
> >>imaginations. If you wish to discredit the bible, give me some "facts".
> >>Your argument is based on ignorance. I'll even use non-biblical or
> >>secular documentation. For every so-called error in my belief I can show
> >>you two for yours. Common' give me some substance.
> 
> >>The Mediator
> 
> >Well, since you are so willing, let us discuss the very first book in
> >your bible, Genesis.  I'll even spot you one, and ignore all the
> >blantantly ignorant crap that you believe adequately summarizes the
> >origin of the universe.
> 
> >Let's take your story of the flood, or perhaps more correctly in your
> >ideology, the Flood.
> 
> >1. There is not enough water on this planet for this flood to have
> >occurred.
> 
> >2. There is scant physical evidence such a flood occurred. If such
> >evidence did exist, it would be difficult to determine whether this
> >was proof that your god caused it, or perhaps the humans that wrote
> >your book were simply recording an event caused by a different, true,
> >god. See the Epic of Gilgamesh, for instance.
> 
> >3. There is no way the Ark, as mentioned in your bible, could have
> >held all the animals it is purported to have held.  I'll even ignore
> >for the moment the contradictions contained in your wholly babble -
> >oops, holy bible - regarding the number of beasts to be held (2 by 2?
> >clean beasts by the seven?).  Why does your bible specifically mention
> >that the Ark had but one window?  Do you really believe that one
> >window could have met the needs of all the animals the Ark supposedly
> >held?
> 
> >4.  What about all the animals that need to eat other animals to live?
> >What did Noah feed them for 40 days?
> 
> >5. More contradictions about the landfall of the Ark ignored.
> 
> >6.  The situation after landfall is equally bad.  With only one family
> >on board, incest would have to have occurred for us to exist. Again.
> >(See Adam and Eve legend)
> 
> >7.  How did all the different continents get populated?  Were more
> >boats constructed to get the animals and people to the other
> >continents?
> 
> >8.  Rainbows are a purely scientific phenomonen.  Did your god,
> >knowing his plan for mankind would lead to his having to drown the lot
> >of them, suspend that particular law of physics so that he could make
> >that silly-ass promise about the rainbow being a sign that he would
> >never again do something that there isn't enough raw material to do
> >anyway?
> 
> >Time for your lame apologetics - insert them here. Remember - you said
> >two for one.
> 
> >Rich Bennett
> >"Faith - the ability to believe the ridiculous for the sublime."
> 
> All of these questions can be answered with Scientific evidence in the book
> "The Incredible Discover of Noah's Ark" by Charles E. Sellier and David W.
> Balsiger, ISBN 0-440-21799-7, check it out before making your decision on
> whether The Flood story in Genesis was a myth or not.
> 
> Love in Christ,
> 
> Todd

Mr. Cantrell, I hope you take this advice and begin to read the very 
extensive works, many on a soundly scientific basis, that will answer 
your objections (all of which have been adequately answered for many 
years now over and over again).  You should write to the Institute for 
Creationism in Santee, California.  They have hundreds of tapes, videos 
and books with overwhelming evidence for you to consider.


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Mon Jun  3 19:04:11 PDT 1996
Article: 40916 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <31B3318F.1E4A@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 11:40:15 -0700
From: Bud 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Moran is winning
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Moran is winning.

I know that to so many of those on this newsgroup this will be =

infuriating, after reading some (admittedly not all) of the postings this =

is my conclusion.  My reason for coming to this conclusion is , I =

believe, true and based on good evidence.  Primarily I believe this is =

true because for months now I have read his postings and the accusatory, =

heated personal attacks, the inflammatory, threatening personal attacks, =

the latest posting indicating he is even getting some =93special=94 page =

mounted from his opposition--!
(As for Matt Giwer... Well, I haven=92t read enough of his =93stuff=94 and =
his =

adversaries to draw this conclusion, but if he is going to be handled =

with the same methodology...

But Moran is winning,and it=92s a shame because...

I have been asked on several occasions to read his postings more =

carefully.  I have.  Sure there are some instances where he =

has=93broad-brushed=94 a particular group (by using =93all=94 etc.,), but h=
e does =

not do this =93all=94 of the time; but I do not note any of the violence or=
 =

personal attacks so numerous as those directed at him.  =


Moran is winning and it=92s a shame, because...

Very often (not always) his point is completely ignored and the only =

reply he receives is rhetorical name-calling, or some =93personal quip or =

accusation and such, without a shred of it having to do with his point.  =

Now to any reasonable man, one who is willing to learn about and =

understand the basis of debate, this type of response show a weakness of =

either evidence or control by the opposition...

I have not seen an instance (although there might be one) where Moran has =

engaged in name-calling or even =93abused=94 his right of/to dissent.  I ha=
ve =

seen so much accusation towards him in this regard, that I cannot help =

but feel he is attacked for his =93opinion=94 rather than for the issue at =

discussion.  This is a glaring weakness on the part of most of his =

opposition.

Moran is winning and it=92s a shame because...

while he has a right to his opinion (and there are a few fanatics on this =

group who are foolish enough to believe =93his=94 =93free speech=94 should =
be =

sqelched), because HE MIGHT STILL BE WRONG ON MANY THINGS... BUT...


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Tue Jun  4 16:35:41 PDT 1996
Article: 40942 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <31B367BA.17C0@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 15:31:22 -0700
From: Bud 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: allied crimes are documented
References: <31B02E8B.2610@rio.com>
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Chuck Ferree wrote:
> =

> >Subject:     ZGram May 27, 1996 - "Sabina Again!"
> >Sent:        5/27/96 12:55 PM
> >Received:    6/1/96 11:00 AM
> >From:        E. Zundel, ezundel@cts.com
> >To:          irimland@cts.com
> >
> >Copyright (c) 1996, (Ingrid A. Rimland).  All rights reserved.
> >You may put the ZGram on your web site or distribute it without charge a=
s
> >long as you check
> >with the Zundelsite (http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english) and add:
> >E-Mail:   so reader=
s
> >can respond.  Thank you!
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >May 27, 1996
> >
> >Good Morning from the Zundelsite:
> =

> Greetings Ingrid,
> From Chuck Ferree
> I must comment on your last post regarding Allied War Crimes. As
> horrible as you made it sound, and as unlikely as it is that it
> happened as you tell us, I'm sure that you believe every bit of the
> horror stories. I don't, and I'm convinced that most other people with
> a little common sense will look at your writings as a little on the
> exaggerated side. The worst part of your putting this kind of balony
> in your news letters, is the lack of any kind of balance. You are
> quick to point out terrible things which you allege happened to
> innocent German women. But I never read a word about how horrible the
> Nazi Holocaust really was. So believe me, everything you say is taken
> with a grain of salt, or as just plain fabrications. When you folks
> admit that Germany, the people of Germany, and their leaders behaved
> as war criminals, maybe then, some us will pay more attention to your
> far out claims. But with the lack of credibility existing on your
> part, we can't accept what you say as the truth. I await your next
> acqusations against other Allied troops, with the hope that you will
> tell the truth and not lie about everything. Try it you might like it.
> =

> large clips (about the details of the law suit) Who Cares???!!!
> >
> >4.      Finally-and this is esoteric but cuts to the core of this strugg=
le:
> >what those engaged in Holocaust Hucksterism
> =

> This kind of language and attitude removes any kind of balance or
> empathy that I personally might have toward your Nazi deniers. At
> least those of us fighting for the truth don't mock your side as War
> Crimes "Hucksters," maybe we should, because that's pretty much what
> you do.
> =

>  have never understood is the
> >profoundly mystical magnificence that poises and grounds people like Ern=
st
> >Z=FCndel.
> =

> The guy is a kook, Ingrid. Nothing mystical or magnificent about Ernst
> Zundel. Had this man been in Germany during the war, old enough to be
> a soldier or a guard in a Nazi concentration camp he would more than
> likely be history, hanged and justifiable so for his war crimes.
> >
> >We aren't talking freedom, or loss of freedom, here.  We aren't talking
> >money.  We aren't talking hardship-grief, obstacles, vicissitude, distre=
ss,
> >woe, heartbreak, sorrow, sacrifice-not even death, as a whole war-time
> >generation of Germans has proven.
> =

> Gad, you want us to feel sorry for the entire generation of Germans,
> not to mention the Austrians who brought all of this on themselves. No
> way, Ingrid. The Nazis, got what they had coming, innocent Germans
> shouldn't blame anyone but Hitler and those other Nazi turkeys. The
> other part of this is, most of the Nazi criminals got away with their
> war crimes. They were lucky that they got the hell out of the country
> and live pretty good all over South America. I have many German and
> Austrian friends, and they are good people. They don't bitch and whine
> like you do, they know what happened and they don't blame the Allies
> for their misery and guilt.
> >
> >We're talking honor-the honor of a once-defeated people.  This is about =
the
> >resurrection of an entire nation that will one day be cleansed from fals=
e
> >guilt.
> =

> False guilt, my behind. Come on, Ingrid, get real. This is silly stuff
> here! What about all the confessions? What about the attitude of the
> German government? The real leaders of Germany and Austria...(with the
> possible exception of Kurt Waldheim) acknowledge their guilt. They are
> honest enough to admit the horrible deeds they did to millions of
> innocent fellow countrymen and millions of others.
> >
> >I know this for a fact, for we have talked about it:  For people like Er=
nst
> >Z=FCndel, the outcome does not matter except in superficial terms.  The
> >outcome is already written in the stars.
> =

> Yeah right. Written in the stars. God mit Unce, as the Nazi daggers
> say. I have several of them taken from prisoners. They weren't too
> proud when we nailed them. They tattled on each other as fast as they
> could talk. Bunch of cowards with out their boots and other military
> garbage.
> =

> Clips
> =

> >Ingrid
> >
> >Thought for the day:
> >
> >"There are not enough jails, not enough policemen, not enough courts to
> >endorse a law not supported by the people."
> =

> Yeah that's right! So you guys better be careful. Your mentor, Zundel
> may end up in the slammer for a long, long time.
> Chuck Ferree
> >
> >Hubert H. Humphrey
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >________________
> >________________
> >________________  Dr. Ingrid Rimland is an internationally known keynote=

> >speaker and award-winning author of several books and hundreds of column=
s
> >and articles.  http://www.webcom.com/ina/
> >
> >Her best-known books are "The Furies and the Flame," an autobiography, a=
nd
> >"The Wanderers," the epic account of a pacifist group of Mennonites
> >escaping during WW II from Communist persecution.
> >
> >
> >

Hi Chuck, this is bud.  We've been in touch, so I hope you know where I =

stand 9at least currently) on many of these matters.  You are wrong about =

Allied Crimes.  Besides the ones my Uncle's in the U.S. army told me =

about there are available several books on the subject.  One of them is =

entitled "Other Losses' by James Bacque, published by Prima Publishing.  =

It has an interesting foreward by Dr. Ernest F. Fisher, Jr. Colonel in =

the U.S. Army, now retired and a former senior historian for the U.S. =

Army.  Another is "An Eye For An Eye" by John Sack.  It's touted as "The =

untold Story of Jewish Revenge Against Germsns in 1945."  It's a shocker, =

published by Harper books.  Mr. Sack is Jewish and ultimately tries to =

make his book seem like some sort of "Jewish Redemption" (according to =

the backpage, but it's replete with some of the most barbarious tortures =

and treatments.  As I have said to you, before, Chuck, this time in =

history is being treated in a most biased manner (in my opinion) and =

NEITHER SIDE should be excused for their deeds.  "To the Victors belong =

the spoils," Chuck, and it also follows too, that the majority of the =

renditions of historical accounts also will and do belong to the =

victors... Just look at the imbalance in the media (bias towards =

Christians, etc.,) and this is starkly evident.  Also, Chuck, I recently =

met a woman who came over here from Germany about 8 years ago and she =

related to me some horrofic tales of Allied mistreatment of Germans.  =

Were we the "Good Guys?"  Well, Chuck, maybe "better" but how much so?...


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Wed Jun  5 01:18:41 PDT 1996
Article: 40989 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <31B4E17F.592A@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Tue, 04 Jun 1996 18:23:11 -0700
From: Bud 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: thank you, Alec
References: <31B3318F.1E4A@niven.imsweb.net> <31B34DCC.317@gryn.org>
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Alec Grynspan wrote:
> 
> Bud wrote:
> >
> > Moran is winning.
> 
> More of the same silliness.
> 
> You are as honest as he is - zero always equals zero.
> 
> By the way - it's spelled whining.

Thank you, Alec.  You just proved my point...


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Wed Jun  5 22:18:53 PDT 1996
Article: 41269 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <31B63D36.3B6D@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 19:06:46 -0700
From: Bud 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: American Holocaust 34 million dead!
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Nationwide, over 34 million unborn babies have been killed in the 22 =

years since abortion
was legalized through the January 22, 1973 Supreme Court decision of Roe =

v. Wade. =

Today, in this country, an unborn child can be legally killed anytime =

throughout the entire
nine months of pregnancy...because he or she may be unwanted, =

inconvenient, possibly
imperfect, or even the wrong sex.  Each year, an estimated 1.5 million =

babies are killed by
abortion, one baby every 20 seconds.

There are several methods of abortion:

DILATION AND CURETTAGE (D&C): These abortions are usually done before 12 =

weeks gestation.  In a D & C a tiny hoe-like instrument, called a suction =

cannula, is inserted into the womb.  The abortionist then scrapes the =

wall of the uterus, cutting the baby's body to pieces. Body parts are =

then pulled out piece by piece through the cervix.  The scraping of the =

uterus typically involves some bleeding and other possible side effects =

that women often find quite painful.

SUCTION ASPIRATION: (Also called "vacuum aspiration")  This method of =

abortion is used in 90% of all abortions done prior to 12 weeks.  A tube =

is inserted through the cervix into the uterus and connected to a strong =

suction apparatus.   The vacuum is so powerful that the tiny baby and the =

placenta are torn to pieces and sucked out into a jar.  Although the baby =

is extremely small, body parts are often easily identified.  Sometimes =

this method follows a D & C.  Infections, damage, and pain in the cervix =

and uterus can result.

SALINE INJECTION:  (Salt Poisoning)  After sixteen weeks, with this =

procedure, a long needle is inserted through the mother=92s abdomen and a =

solution of concentrated salt is injected into the amniotic fluid which =

surrounds the child.  The baby breathes in and swallows the solution and =

usually dies in one to two hours, sometimes death takes many hours, from =

salt poisoning, dehydration, convulsions, hemorrhages of the brain and =

failure of other organs.  The baby's skin is burned by the salt.    The =

baby's thrashing, caused by the trauma of the saline, can be physically =

painful to his mother, and is often psychologically devastating to her.  =

The mother goes into labor and a dead baby is delivered, usually within =

24 to 48 hours.

PROSTAGLANDIN ABORTION:  This drug causes a woman to go into labor at any =

stage of pregnancy.  It is generally used in middle to late pregnancy to =

induce abortion.  The potent hormone-like drug, prostaglandin, is =

injected into the amniotic sac.  It produces labor and premature birth.  =

The unborn baby, in some cases, is born alive and placed aside to die.  =

In order to avoid what abortionists describe as =93The Dreaded =

Complication=94 of a live birth from a prostaglandin or salt-poisoning, =

abortionists now customarily kill the child first before =93evacuating=94 t=
he =

baby.  Abortionists use ultrasound to guide an injection of lethal =

potassium chloride into an unborn baby=92s heart.  Other abortionists use =

an injection of digoxin to cause fetal cardiac arrest.  Sometimes salt is =

injected first, to kill the baby before birth and make the procedure less =

distressful for the mother.  This method results in a very painful =

abortion for the mother.  Prostaglandins are accompanied by serious =

problems of their own, including potentially lethal side effects.   =


HYSTEROTOMY:  A hysterotomy or Caesarean section abortion is used in the =

last trimester. The womb is entered by surgery through the wall of the =

abdomen.  It is the same as a live delivery except that the baby is =

killed in the uterus, or is allowed to die from neglect if he is not yet =

dead upon removal.  This surgical method is done if a saline or =

prostaglandin abortion has failed or when a tubal ligation is done.  This =

is a major surgery with inherent difficulties, possible complications, =

and a potentially painful recovery.

DILATION AND EXTRACTION (D&X):  This method of abortion (also known as a =

Partial Birth Abortion) was publically unveiled in 1992 and is used to =

kill babies from 20 weeks through full term.  Because the opening of the =

woman's cervix must be greatly enlarged, the abortion requires three days =

with repeated visits for insertion of laminaria.  These are cylindrical =

shaped or tapered devices which are inserted into the cervix and which =

gradually increase in diameter as they absorb water to dilate the cervix. =

Three days later the abortion is performed.  The abortionist ruptures the =

membranes and drains the amniotic fluid.  Using an ultrasound on the =

mother's abdomen, the baby is identified and orientated within the =

uterus.  Having turned the unborn baby inside the uterus so that he or =

she is orientated feet first and face down toward the floor, the =

abortionist inserts forceps into the vagina, the cervical canal, and into =

the uterus and grasps one of the baby's legs.  The other leg with the =

remainder of the torso up to the baby's neck is then pulled outside of =

the uterus.  The head is "usually" too large to deliver, so a blunt =

scissors is inserted into the base of the living baby's skull and spread =

apart to enlarge the hole.  The scissors are removed and a suction tube =

is inserted into the skull and the brains are suctioned out or =

"evacuated."  This kills the baby, collapses the head, and the child is =

removed.  Then the afterbirth is cut away.  To put the size of the unborn =

baby at 20 weeks of development into perspective, the majority of D&X =

aborted babies weigh about a pound, are approximately 8 inches in length =

(measuring from the top of the head to the bottom of the rump), and are =

fully formed, with feet roughly 1 inch to 1 1/2 inches in length.  Babies =

born at this stage of development  (19 or 20 weeks) have survived. =


RU 486:  The French-developed "abortion pill" is a powerful anti-hormone =

(steroid) called mifepristone that interrupts the natural life process by =

inhibiting production of the progesterone necessary to prepare the =

uterine wall to support the pregnancy.  As a result, the tiny developing =

baby literally starves to death as the nutrient lining of the womb =

sloughs off, and muscular contractions cause the dead baby to be expelled =

>from  the uterus.  It is used to induce abortions between the fifth to =

ninth weeks of pregnancy.  Women first take RU486 alone.  Within 48 =

hours, only three percent have a completed abortion.  The remainder of =

the women, ninety-seven percent, must take a second powerful drug, a =

prostaglandin.  In approximately five to ten percent of the women who use =

the RU486 abortion method, the drugs fail to kill the developing baby and =

the women usually have follow-up surgical abortions.  RU486 can cause =

severe disabilities in babies who survive the abortion, can injure and =

possibly kill women, and could harm a woman's subsequent offspring.  =

Preliminary findings of the first independent studies reveal serious =

under- reporting of the abortion technique's adverse side effects.  At =

present, RU486 is only licensed for use in France, Britain and Sweden.  =

It is being tested in other countries, including the United States, with =

the objective of marketing it extensively over the next several years.  =

With RU486, a mother will more directly participate in ending the life of =

her unborn child, and verify that she has passed the "uterine content" =

that is her dead baby.  Nearly half of the French women polled report =

that they find this verification process disturbing.

UPDATE: METHOTREXATE AND MISOPROSTOL:  Researchers have discovered that =

two prescription pharmaceuticals, Methotrexate (prescribed to combat =

cancer and rheumatoid arthritis) and Misoprostol (prescribed as a =

preventative against ulcers caused by common anti-inflammatory drugs) =

when prescribed in tandem can induce an abortion.  A few doctors have =

recently used the drugs to induce abortion, while the Food and Drug =

Administration has approved the drugs to treat cancer and ulcers.  Both =

drugs act on a woman's reproductive system.  Methotrexate interferes with =

the vitamin folic acid and kills rapidly growing cells.  It has been used =

for the termination of ectopic pregnancies...the life-threatening =

condition in which fertilized eggs grow outside the uterus.  Methotrexate =

is a toxic drug that is normally administered by doctors experienced with =

anti-metabolite therapy.  Toxic effects such as nausea, pain, diarrhea, =

bone marrow depression, anemia, liver damage and lung disease are noted =

as occurring even at low doses.  Misoprostol causes uterine contractions =

and is sometimes used off-label to soften the cervix when inducing labor. =

 The women receive an injection of methotrexate and return 5 to 7 days =

later to receive the misoprostol vaginally.  The women return home, where =

cramping and bleeding begins and the baby is usually aborted within =

twenty-four hours. As with RU486, the mother will more directly =

participate in ending the life of her unborn child, and verify that she =

has passed the "uterine content" that is her dead baby.  No longer will =

an abortionist be present to share the guilt, or even a nurse to conceal =

the baby's tiny body.  More than ever, women will be alone in dealing =

with the physical and psychological aftermath of an abortion.  The drugs =

must be administered by the ninth week of pregnancy, after that, =

excessive bleeding is likely.    Long term effects of the two drugs are =

unknown.


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Thu Jun  6 14:02:53 PDT 1996
Article: 41445 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <31B5A229.FB1@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 08:05:13 -0700
From: Bud 
X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02 (Win16; I)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: a reasonable response
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Hello Mike:  Thanks for your more responsible answer.  I only wish more 
of you on both sides would do the same -- really.
I think I have to make myself clear once again, Mike.  I am not saying 
that the holocaust did not happen.  It appears to me that any reasonable 
man has to admit that something "like it" happened.  If we are going to 
take hundreds of eye-witness testimony and toss it out the window, the 
we'd have to take a huge part of our legal system and to the same!  I do 
not think that "all" eyewitness testimony is viable, but when you have so 
many... well, reasonable men have to give them the benefit of the doubt, 
and then the burden of proving them liars remains on THEIR accusors!  
What I have been trying to say, here is that while I don't know exactly 
how many of a particular group died, I don't like the way some of the 
exterminationists (I don't like that name, but it seems to be accepted in 
some circles) approach this when some of the stories are brought into 
question.  Also, I still don't think that this period in history should 
be so touted as the icon for human history.  It represents an unfair 
imbalance.  So, whether or not it was 3 million, or 6 million (must be at 
least 40 or more million died all over the world!) when any nation 
deliberately sets out to methodically murder any group or groups of 
people they deserve to be punished, world consciousness would demand 
that!  But there is still a very unfair imbalance, and this bothers me.  
So, let me state it again.  I DO NOT deny the holocaust, only question 
SOME of the bizarre stories that keep emerging.  Many of the Jewish 
scholars themselves have had to "revise" some of the stories.  If you 
want to call what happened in Europe during that period a "holocaust" 
then fine, it's brutal, calculated murder in any terms and needs to be 
avoided at any cost in the future. But again, Mike, there are other (to 
me) inhuman holocausts going on right here in American right now.  The 
slaughter, tearing apart limb-by-limb of over 34 million babies aborted 
in our so-called "fair land." !  This, to me, is a holocaust!  However, 
despite my deep anger at those who support this horrible crime against 
humanity, I DO NOT seek to silence those who oppose my view, and it seems 
that many of the exterminationists do, and ON THIS  and other points I 
have tried to make, I will... I believe I am right to do so.  Again, 
sure, the holocaust (as it is termed by some) happened, if by that we 
mean the cruel, planned, premeditated murder of people!  Gas Chambers, 
bullets, whatever was used, this kind of crap ultimately nothing to do 
with the fact they were murdered! Hell, when a child is murdered, I don't 
knitpick about what particular method the abortionist used -- THE CHILD 
WAS MURDERED, PERIOD!  So, if it makes somebody happier to see me write 
that "a" "holocaust" happened -- of course it did.  Are all of the 
stories true?  Of course they're not ALL true!  So what, that doesn't 
obviate the hundreds of other horrendous stories documented!  Nor does it 
make one innocent "holocaust" (murder) victim less valuable any more than 
those 34 million children, Mike!  I just hope to see more restraint in 
dealing with opposing views on the question.  The "violence" and 
"overly-charged emotion" in many cases to me serves to cloud the issue, 
which is, in the final analysis to me, the inherent value of a human life 
and to do whatever must be done to be absolutely certain there are ways 
to end the killing ("holocaust", whatever...)

You can post this up if you want, Mike.  I'm not ashamed of my view, or 
the way I try to approach it.  Alec Greenspan is still wrong in his 
method...


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Fri Jun  7 07:11:21 PDT 1996
Article: 41552 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <31B3A141.4CEB@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 1996 19:36:49 -0700
From: Bud 
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Subject: in response
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This was in response to email which was once again sent to my personal 
email rather than posted to the newsgroup as it should have been.  Since 
I think it is appropriate to some of my objections to some of the 
shennanigans going on, I decided to put it up here for others to read.  I 
have replaced the name of the person to whom I replied to with... but 
this was my response, and I think this is also appropriate.

... Your being in the war does not in any way indicate or prove that
you were "everywhere" to see or witness "everything".  You are
singular-minded, ... , and could not have read those books I mentioned
and responded in such a manner.  I think you are on this line to find a
"fight" rather than the truth, ....  Perhaps you are too old to change
your mind or let in new information.  The truth is that as time goes on
there are always new truths and revelations that historians unearth, and
it is often upsetting to those of us who have been brought up to believe
in certain dogmatic truths.  Can you imagine if they "really" ever did
find and definitely identify the remains of Jesus Christ!?  Historical
reality isn't as narrow as you would have it defined, ..., and the
research of many historians overrides your preferences and mine
collectively.  But you are entitled to your stand, but I think you are
being narrow in your approach.  ..., it wasn't the Australians who
dropped the atom bomb on Japan, killing hundreds of thousands of men,
women and children.  It wasn't the Australian who firebombed Dresden
killing over 100,000 civilians in one day.  We could go on about this,
but you are right in that this has nothing to do with the holocaust
question, but I DID NOT PUT THIS INTO THE discussion, YOU DID.  Finally,
it's best if we stick to putting our postings on the net newsgroup where
all can see them and give their input, such as it is done in these
circles...


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Sat Jun  8 06:42:44 PDT 1996
Article: 41714 of alt.revisionism
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Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 14:31:49 -0700
From: Bud 
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Subject: God's Chosen people
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WHO ARE GOD=92S CHOSEN PEOPLE?

	Premillennialists have long maintained that Israel and the Church =

are two separate and distinct people of God.  Most of them also claim =

that the distinction between natural Israel and Gentiles is continued =

after the  institution of the church -- that Israel is still a genuine =

Israel and that the Gentiles continue to fulfill their part.  This =

continuance of Israel and the Gentiles as such is a strong argument they =

use against either one (the Church or Israel) as having been disposed of =

their own place.  With this reasoning one is able to get away from =

claiming that Israel IS NOT reduced to the bankruptcy of the gentiles:
(Eph 2:12 (NASB)  remember that you were at that time separate from =

Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the =

covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.)

	This reasoning enables them to insist on the distinction between =

two groups on the same lines as before the church was instituted.  These =

same premillenialists will argue that Jews and Gentiles who are converted =

are entirely and additionally in some kind of =93new category, often citing=
 =

Ephesians 2:15 for this thinking:
(Eph 2:15 (NASB)  by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law =

of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make =

the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,)

	There are some major problems with this argument!  Very carefully =

read the verses below:

(Eph 2:13-19 (NASB)  But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far =

off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is =

our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of =

the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the =

Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might =

make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might =

reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having =

put to death the enmity. 17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO =

WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR; 18 for through Him we =

both have our access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no =

longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints, =

and are of God's household,)
(Gal 3:26-29 (NASB)  For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ =

Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed =

yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is =

neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are =

all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you belong to Christ, then you are =

Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.)  (underlining is my own =

for emphasis)

	Now if physical Israel continues today as God=92s people then what =

about the Christian Jews?  They are either a part of the church, or =

physical or of both!(?).  It they are part of both, there is still a =

distinction between a Jewish believer and a Gentile believer and this =

conflicts with what Paul says above?

	The answer to this (and other problems with the contentions of =

most premillenialists is obvious -- it is that

GOD DOES NOT HAVE TWO PEOPLE TODAY (physical Israel and the church.)

	The kingdom was TAKEN FROM ISRAEL and no Israelite is in the =

kingdom of God who has not been born again.  Find it hard to believe?  =

Then read the following verses:

(Mat 21:43 (NASB)  "Therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be =

taken away from you, and be given to a nation producing the fruit of it.)

	If you have any doubt who Jesus was speaking to here go back to =

Verses 23 on and note He was talking to the Chief Priests and Elders (the =

Jews).  Here are some more verses:

(John 3:3-5 (NIV)  In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one =

can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." 4 "How can a man be =

born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second =

time into his mother's womb to be born!" 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you =

the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water =

and the Spirit.

1 Pet 2:5-9 (KJV)  Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual =

house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable =

to God by Jesus Christ. 6 Wherefore also it is contained in the =

scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: =

and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. 7 Unto you =

therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be =

disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made =

the head of the corner, 8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of =

offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: =

whereunto also they were appointed. 9 But ye are a chosen generation, a =

royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should show =

forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his =

marvellous light:)

	Is it becoming clear who are the people of God (believers in =

Christ) and those who are not? (unbelievers).

	Those who do not believe were broken off (Rom 11:20 (NASB)  Quite =

right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your =

faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;).  There is a remnant, certainly, =

but clearly from Romans 11 it is those who believe in Christ!  Those who =

do not are cast away (Rom 11:15 (NASB)  For if their rejection be the =

reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from =

the dead?) and are cast out (Gal 4:30 (NIV)  But what does the Scripture =

say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son =

will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son.")  They =

ARE NOT the children of promise as was Isaac, but are Ishmaelites =



(Gal 4:21-31 (NASB)  Tell me, you who want to be under law, do you not =

listen to the law? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by =

the bondwoman and one by the free woman. 23 But the son by the bondwoman =

was born according to the flesh, and the son by the free woman through =

the promise. 24 This is allegorically speaking: for these women are two =

covenants, one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be =

slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia, and =

corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her =

children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother. 27 For =

it is written, "REJOICE, BARREN WOMAN WHO DOES NOT BEAR; BREAK FORTH AND =

SHOUT, YOU WHO ARE NOT IN LABOR; FOR MORE ARE THE CHILDREN OF THE =

DESOLATE THAN OF THE ONE WHO HAS A HUSBAND." 28 And you brethren, like =

Isaac, are children of promise. 29 But as at that time he who was born =

according to the flesh persecuted him who was born according to the =

Spirit, so it is now also. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "CAST OUT =

THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON, FOR THE SON OF THE BONDWOMAN SHALL NOT BE AN =

HEIR WITH THE SON OF THE FREE WOMAN." 31 So then, brethren, we are not =

children of a bondwoman, but of the free woman.

	Unbelievers (including the Jews) are in bankruptcy in so far as =

being in covenant relationship with God is concerned.

	Again let=92s state categorically that God has ONLY ONE covenant =

people and the church is the true Israel of God today.

THE CHURCH -- =93SPIRITUAL ISRAEL=94

	Even during the Old Testament period NOT EVERY physical Israelite =

was a true child of God (Rom 9:1-8 (NIV)  I speak the truth in Christ--I =

am not lying, my conscience confirms it in the Holy Spirit-- 2 I have =

great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I =

myself were cursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers, =

those of my own race, 4 the people of Israel. Theirs is the adoption as =

sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the law, =

the temple worship and the promises. 5 Theirs are the patriarchs, and =

>from  them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, =

forever praised! Amen. 6 It is not as though God's word had failed. For =

not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are =

his descendants are they all Abraham's children. On the contrary, "It is =

through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." 8 In other words, it =

is not the natural children who are God's children, but it is the =

children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.)

	Can anything be clearer than these verses?!

	All spiritual Israelites in the first century accepted Christ =

(Rom 11:5 (NASB)  In the same way then, there has also come to be at the =

present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.).  They are =

the =93remnant=94, chosen by God to be believers, NOT all of Israel...

	The only spiritual Israel today that is acceptable to God is the =

Church and this claim can readily be justified by the Scriptures.  We are =

going to show this and other claims by making a statement and then give =

the Scriptural references to substantiate that statement.

(1)	Those in the new covenant ARE ISAAC. THEY are children of the =

promise.  The fleshly Jew is an Ishmaelite.

(Gal 4:21-31 (NIV)  Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you =

not aware of what the law says? 22 For it is written that Abraham had two =

sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son =

by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free =

woman was born as the result of a promise. 24 These things may be taken =

figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from =

Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 =

Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present =

city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But =

the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27 For it is =

written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and =

cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of =

the desolate woman than of her who has a husband." 28 Now you, brothers, =

like Isaac, are children of promise. 29 At that time the son born in the =

ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is =

the same now. 30 But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave =

woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the =

inheritance with the free woman's son." 31 Therefore, brothers, we are =

not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.)

(2)	Israel was God=92s old covenant kingdom.  The kingdom WAS TAKEN =

>from  her and given to the church.

(Mat 21:43 (NIV)  "Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be =

taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

1 Pet 2:5-9 (NIV)  you also, like living stones, are being built into a =

spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices =

acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For in Scripture it says: "See, =

I lay a stone in Zion, a chosen and precious cornerstone, and the one who =

trusts in him will never be put to shame." 7 Now to you who believe, this =

stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the =

builders rejected has become the capstone," 8 and, "A stone that causes =

men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall." They stumble because =

they disobey the message--which is also what they were destined for. 9 =

But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people =

belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you =

out of darkness into his wonderful light.)



(3)	Israel=92s physical circumcision is a mere cutting, but Christians =

are God=92s circumcised people TODAY.

(Phil 3:2-3 (NASB)  Beware of the dogs, beware of the evil workers, =

beware of the false circumcision; 3 for we are the true circumcision, who =

worship in the Spirit of God and glory in Christ Jesus and put no =

confidence in the flesh,

Col 2:11-13 (NASB)  and in Him you were also circumcised with a =

circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh =

by the circumcision of Christ; 12 having been buried with Him in baptism, =

in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of =

God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And when you were dead in your =

transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive =

together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,)

(4)	To depend on the physical relationship to Abraham today is =

useless

(Phil 3:4-9 (NASB)  although I myself might have confidence even in the =

flesh. If anyone else has a mind to put confidence in the flesh, I far =

more: 5 circumcised the eighth day, of the nation of Israel, of the tribe =

of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the Law, a Pharisee; 6 as to =

zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to the righteousness which is in the =

Law, found blameless. 7 But whatever things were gain to me, those things =

I have counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 More than that, I count =

all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ =

Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count =

them but rubbish in order that I may gain Christ, 9 and may be found in =

Him, not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that =

which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from God =

on the basis of faith,)

(5)	Abraham=92s seed (in the sense that it counts)  today is the church =

because the church is Christ=92s and they that are His are Abraham=92s seed=
 =

according to the promise.

(Acts 20:28 (NIV)  Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which =

the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of =

God, which he bought with his own blood.

Gal 3:26-29 (NIV)  You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus, =

27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves =

with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor =

female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, =

then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

(6)	The new covenant has been established with Israel

(Jer 31:31-34 (NIV)  "The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I =

will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of =

Judah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers =

when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they =

broke my covenant, though I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 =

"This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that =

time," declares the LORD. "I will put my law in their minds and write it =

on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No =

longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know =

the LORD,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the =

greatest," declares the LORD. "For I will forgive their wickedness and =

will remember their sins no more.")
(Heb 8:5-12 (NIV)  They serve at a sanctuary that is a copy and shadow of =

what is in heaven. This is why Moses was warned when he was about to =

build the tabernacle: "See to it that you make everything according to =

the pattern shown you on the mountain." 6 But the ministry Jesus has =

received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator =

is superior to the old one, and it is founded on better promises. 7 For =

if there had been nothing wrong with that first covenant, no place would =

have been sought for another. 8 But God found fault with the people and =

said: "The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new =

covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9 It will =

not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers when I took them =

by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain =

faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. =

10 This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that =

time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them =

on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11 No =

longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know =

the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the =

greatest. 12 For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their =

sins no more.") =

(7)	It was offered to physical Israel, but on the same basis it was =

also offered to those who were far off (the Gentiles)
(Acts 2:36-39 (NIV)  "Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God =

has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ." 37 When =

the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and =

the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?" 38 Peter replied, =

"Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ =

for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the =

Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who =

are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call=94
(8)	Peter wrote to the church and called them =93THE ELECT WHO ARE =

SOJOURNERS OF THE DISPERSION

(1 Pet 1:1 (NASB)  Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside =

as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and =

Bithynia, who are chosen
(Here is the Greek rendition along with the true Greek Meanings as proof)
1 Pet 1:1 (HG)  petros:G4074 . apostolos:G652 . iesous:G2424 =

christos:G5547 . . parepidemos:G3927 diaspora:G1290 . pontos:G4195 =

galatia:G1053 kappadokia:G2587 asia:G773 . bithunia:G978
4074. Petros, pet'-ros; appar. a prim. word; a (piece of) rock (larger =

than G3037); as a name, Petrus, an apostle:--Peter, rock. Comp. G2786. =

652. apostolos, ap-os'-tol-os; from G649; a delegate; spec. an ambassador =

of the Gospel; officially a commissioner of Christ ["apostle"] (with =

miraculous powers):--apostle, messenger, he that is sent. 2424. Iesous, =

ee-ay-sooce'; of Heb. or. [H3091]; Jesus (i.e. Jehoshua), the name of our =

Lord and two (three) other Isr.:--Jesus. 5547. Christos, khris-tos'; from =

G5548; anointed, i.e. the Messiah, an epithet of Jesus:--Christ. 3927. =

parepidemos, par-ep-id'-ay-mos; from G3844 and the base of G1927; an =

alien alongside, i.e. a resident foreigner:--pilgrim, stranger. 1290. =

diaspora, dee-as-por-ah'; from G1289; dispersion, i.e. (spec. and concr.) =

the (converted) Isr. resident in Gentile countries:--(which are) =

scattered (abroad). 4195. Pontos, pon'-tos; a sea; Pontus, a region of =

Asia Minor:--Pontus. 1053. Galatia, gal-at-ee'-ah; of for. or.; Galatia, =

a region of Asia:--Galatia. 2587. Kappadokia, kap-pad-ok-ee'-ah; of for. =

or.; Cappadocia, a region of Asia Minor:--Cappadocia. 773. Asia, =

as-ee'-ah; of uncert. der.; Asia, i.e. Asia Minor, or (usually) only its =

western shore:--Asia. 978. Bithunia, bee-thoo-nee'-ah; of uncert. der.; =

Bithynia, a region of Asia:--Bithynia.

	It=92s common knowledge that the Jews used =93the dispersion=94 to =

refer to Jews who were scattered (John 7:35 (NASB)  The Jews therefore =

said to one another, "Where does this man intend to go that we shall not =

find Him? He is not intending to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks, =

and teach the Greeks, is He?=94).  Peter used =93the dispersion=94 to refer=
 to =

the Christians who were scattered.  Peter, an apostle of Christ, was NOT =

written to unbelieving Jews, but to God=92s holy nation, the Church.  (1 =

Pet 2:5-10 (NASB)  you also, as living stones, are being built up as a =

spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices =

acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For this is contained in =

Scripture: "BEHOLD I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, =

AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 7 This precious =

value, then, is for you who believe. But for those who disbelieve, "THE =

STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone," 8 =

and, "A STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble =

because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also =

appointed. 9 But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY =

NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, that you may proclaim the =

excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous =

light; 10 for you once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF =

GOD; you had NOT RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.

	Peter clearly had Paul=92s idea that Christianity is the TRUE =

JUDAISM of God=92s writings (1 Pet 2:4-10 (NASB)  And coming to Him as to a=
 =

living stone, rejected by men, but choice and precious in the sight of =

God, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual =

house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable =

to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For this is contained in Scripture: =

"BEHOLD I LAY IN ZION A CHOICE STONE, A PRECIOUS CORNER stone, AND HE WHO =

BELIEVES IN HIM SHALL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED." 7 This precious value, then, =

is for you who believe. But for those who disbelieve, "THE STONE WHICH =

THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE VERY CORNER stone," 8 and, "A =

STONE OF STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE"; for they stumble because they =

are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed. 9 =

But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE =

FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him =

who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 for you =

once were NOT A PEOPLE, but now you are THE PEOPLE OF GOD; you had NOT =

RECEIVED MERCY, but now you have RECEIVED MERCY.
	Is it not clear that this cannot refer to unbelieving Jews, but =

only to those who believe in Christ (Christians)?!
(9)	The apostles now reign with Christ =93JUDGING THE TWELVE TRIBES OF =

ISRAEL
(Mat 19:28 (NASB)  And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you =

who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on =

His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the =

twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:29-30 (NASB)  and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I =

grant you 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and =

you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
(10)	Those of literal Israel who reject the gospel are cut off from =

God=92s people and those who accept become God=92s people AND ABRAHAM=92S S=
EED!
(Acts 3:19-25 (NASB)  "Repent therefore and return, that your sins may be =

wiped away, in order that times of refreshing may come from the presence =

of the Lord; 20 and that He may send Jesus, the Christ appointed for you, =

21 whom heaven must receive until the period of restoration of all things =

about which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from ancient =

time. 22 "Moses said, 'THE LORD GOD SHALL RAISE UP FOR YOU A PROPHET LIKE =

ME FROM YOUR BRETHREN; TO HIM YOU SHALL GIVE HEED in everything He says =

to you. 23 'And it shall be that every soul that does not heed that =

prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.' 24 "And =

likewise, all the prophets who have spoken, from Samuel and his =

successors onward, also announced these days. 25 "It is you who are the =

sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with your =

fathers, saying to Abraham, 'AND IN YOUR SEED ALL THE FAMILIES OF THE =

EARTH SHALL BE BLESSED.' (underlining is mine but read it again and =

again!)
PARALLELS BETWEEN THE OLD ISRAEL AND THE =93NEW=94 ISRAEL (THE CHURCH).
(1)	Israel was God=92s chosen in times past (Deu 7:6 (NASB)  "For you =

are a holy people to the LORD your God; the LORD your God has chosen you =

to be a people for His own possession out of all the peoples who are on =

the face of the earth.)
	but the church is God=92s chosen today even thought the world in =

general doesn=92t realize it (1 Pet 2:4 (NIV)  As you come to him, the =

living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him--1 =

Pet 2:9 (NIV)  But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy =

nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of =

him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. Rev 17:14 =

(NASB)  "These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome =

them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are =

with Him are the called and chosen and faithful.")
(now try looking up the verses yourself and check these out!)
(2)	Just like the ancient patriarchs, Christians are sojourners and =

pilgrims who looked for the heavenly land and city (1 Peter 1:1; 2:11; =

Hebrews 11:9, 13; 10; 13:12-14)
(3)	Old Israel and New Israel were both told to be holy because God =

is holy ( 1 Peter 1:15-16; Leviticus 11:44-45; 19:2; 20:7)
(4)	As was old Israel so is New Israel a people for God=92s own =

possession (Exodus 19:5; Deut. 7:6; 14:2; 1 Peter 2:9)
(5)	God called them both to be a =93holy nation=94 (Exodus 19:6; Deut =

14:2; 1 Peter 2:9)
(6)	Israel had a temple, Christians are living stones who make up the =

temple or spiritual house of God (1 Peter 2:5; Ephesians 2:22)
(7)	Ancient Israel was God=92s house and the church is God=92s house =

today (Hebrews 3:2-5, 6; 1 Timothy 3:15)
(8)	God created and formed the old nation of Israel, and He created =

the new Israel through the cross (Isaiah 43:15, 20-21; Ephesians 2:11-22; =

1 Peter 2:9)
(9)	Since the church is God=92s Israel today those who are without are =

Gentiles (1 Cor 5:1, 12-13; 10; 20; 1 Peter 4:3) and this includes Greeks =

(Gentiles) and Jews (1 Cor 10:32)
(10)	God was the Shepherd of ancient Israel (Psalm 23) and Ezekiel =

predicted David would be the =93one shepherd=94 over the nation of Israel =93=
in =

the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers =

dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their =

children=92s children, for ever: and David my servant shall be their prince=
 =

for ever=94 (Ezekiel 37:15-25).  This is fulfilled in Christ =93the shepher=
d =

and Bishop of your souls=94 over the flock of God (1 Peter 2:25; 1 Peter =

5:2,4)
(11)	All Christians are children of Abraham and Sarah (Galatians 3:29; =

4:21-31).  Christian women are called children of Sarah (1 Peter 3:6).
(12)	Christians are a part of the GOOD OLIVE TREE as surely as was =

physical Israel.  Those who are not of the faith (Christians) ARE NOT a =

part of the GOOD OLIVE TREE (Rom 11:17-24 (NASB)  But if some of the =

branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in =

among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive =

tree, 18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, =

remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports =

you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be =

grafted in." 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but =

you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did =

not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. 22 Behold then =

the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to =

you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also =

will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their =

unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again. 24 =

For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and =

were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much =

more shall these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own =

olive tree? (Only those who believe in Christ will be grafted back on to =

the olive tree!)
	There are dozens of other examples that can be shown in the Old =

and New Testament to attest to the thesis of this report.  Actually it =

should not be a surprise that God=92s Israel today is spiritual Israel.  =

Old Testament Israel contained more than physical Israel and also =

contained less than all physical descendants of Abraham.  Proselytes =

could become a part of Israel and keep the Passover (Exo 12:48-50 (NASB) =

 "But if a stranger sojourns with you, and celebrates the Passover to the =

LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near to =

celebrate it; and he shall be like a native of the land. But no =

uncircumcised person may eat of it. 49 "The same law shall apply to the =

native as to the stranger who sojourns among you." 50 Then all the sons =

of Israel did so; they did just as the LORD had commanded Moses and =

Aaron.)
	On the other hand, there were physical Jews  who were =

uncircumcised in heart and ear and who ceased to be God=92s people.  There =

were as Sodom and Gommorah (Isa 1:9-10 (NASB)  Unless the LORD of hosts =

Had left us a few survivors, We would be like Sodom, We would be like =

Gomorrah. 10 Hear the word of the LORD, You rulers of Sodom; Give ear to =

the instruction of our God, You people of Gomorrah.
Amos 9:7-8 (NASB)  "Are you not as the sons of Ethiopia to Me, O sons of =

Israel?" declares the LORD. "Have I not brought up Israel from the land =

of Egypt, And the Philistines from Caphtor and the Arameans from Kir? 8 =

"Behold, the eyes of the Lord GOD are on the sinful kingdom, And I will =

destroy it from the face of the earth; Nevertheless, I will not totally =

destroy the house of Jacob," Declares the LORD.
Acts 7:51 (NASB)  "You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in =

heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just =

as your fathers did.)
	Premillenialists teach the restoration of the temple, the nation =

of Israel, the rule which David exercised (under the law of Moses), the =

sin-offerings, the Levitical priesthood, etc.  This is contrary to the =

Book of Hebrews which clearly teaches that these things were shadows =

which gave way to the substance.  Also, the temple in Jerusalem is NO =

LONGER THE CENTER OF WORSHIP (John 4:20-24 (NASB)  "Our fathers worshiped =

in this mountain, and you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where =

men ought to worship." 21 Jesus said^ to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour =

is coming when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall you =

worship the Father. 22 "You worship that which you do not know; we =

worship that which we know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 "But an =

hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the =

Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His =

worshipers. 24 "God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in =

spirit and truth.")
	Premillennialists are attempting to rebuild the system of carnal =

ordinances which Hebrews says was only until the Gospel age.
	Amazing that they and so many believe that God will do all these =

things when it was God who TORE DOWN all those things!


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Sat Jun  8 06:42:45 PDT 1996
Article: 41732 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <31B89EC0.4D4F@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Fri, 07 Jun 1996 14:27:28 -0700
From: Bud 
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Newsgroups: wpg.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.anything,can.politics,talk.politics.misc,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,comp.org.eff.talk
Subject: Re: Ernst Zundel, threat to Canada's national security? No,the real threat is Soviate style McVay Justice.
References: <4nus3o$flg@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996May29.190720.6645@wpg.ramp.net> <4okht8$nep@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <1996May31.223855.24833@wpg.ramp.net> <4ood7g$ffp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4p3t13$5em@news.ios.com>
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Chuck wrote:
> 
>  Anyone who fears free speach must have something to hide. Mr.McVay is
> working hard to stiffle free speech in Canada and is in support of a
> Soviate style hearing. This is a real threat to Canada and her citizens.
>  Today it's Zundel for debate on the holocaust,tommorow its others for
> tax protest and practicing Christianity. Don't think so ? There is a
> major drive in the Jewish community to equate the Bible with hate and
> there for out law it in some countries. This movemant is hell bent
> because Jesus in John 8:41-45 calls jews the devils people.
> 
>  Wake up  !
> 
> P.S. So much for the choosen people myth that Billy Grahm and Pat
> Robertson preach. I wonder how the can explain John 8:41-45 ?

Chuck.  Although I do not favor bigotry or racism, I do agree with the 
fact that the Jews of today are (in most cases) NOT the so-called "chosen 
people."  I am a Christian, and like the reformers taught (a teaching now 
seemingly lost within political correctness) the Christians are (and this 
is easily gotten from the New Testament) the "chosen" people and heirs 
according to the promise!  I have posted to Alt.Revisionism several times 
my conviction that most of the modern day Jews are NOT from the tribe of 
Judah or the lineage of Shem, but are in fact from the Khazars of Asia 
and Turkey, and some parts of Europe.  I have read where some of the 
movements from some Jewish quarters are attempting to "revise" the New 
Testament, I do not believe they are attempting to also do the same to 
the Old Testament.  I am attaching a file for you to read, most of the 
material for which came from "The Christiand News" which I believe to be 
one of the best (truthful) Christian publications around today.  However, 
as Christians, please lets also agree to pray that God will sovereignly 
lead whom He will to the truth of the true Messiah, Jesus Christ.  I hope 
you agree.


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Sat Jun  8 15:21:02 PDT 1996
Article: 21971 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Message-ID: <31B60F25.898@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Wed, 05 Jun 1996 15:50:13 -0700
From: Bud 
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Subject: Re: How to Spot a Jew
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nRad wrote:
> 
> Greetings,
> 
> I can talk till I'm blue in my Aryan face about the Jewish threat, but most of
> you won't believe me. So instead, I'll show you how to spot a Jew and you can
> learn for yourself.
> 
> Jews are not hard to recognize. After all, they have to be able to spot one
> another in order for the "nation" to exist.
> 
> The three indices are:
> 
> #1 Jewish Name
> #2 Jewish Face
> #3 Jewish Occupation
> 
> JEWISH NAMES
> 
> Usually characterized by the endings. ie:
> 
> stein
> berg
> ow
> ell
> off
> sky
> oi
> and less specifically, man or er
> 
> Basically, the Jews have adopted German and Russian names, for the most part, but
> often idiosyncratic ones.
> 
> They often name themselves after European cities, as well. ie:
> 
> Berlin
> Paris
> Amsterdam
> 
> First names are harder to characterize in modern Jews, though "David" and "Mark"
> are still common.
> 
> JEWISH FACES
> 
> Many prominent Jews (after centuries of pilfering European genes) have blue eyes
> and light coloring, which seem out of place with their basically tropical
> features.
> 
> Large, sleepy, fish-like eyes
> Fat, square lips
> Pointy ears
> 
> JEWISH OCCUPATIONS
> 
> Doctor
> Lawyer
> "Journalist"
> Bureaucrat
> "Writer"
> "Producer"
> Psychiatrist
> Anything which allows political or cultural control over Aryans.
> 
> See you.
> --
> Rad
> 
> Dole gave his blood, sweat and tears for his country. Clinton only gave semen.

Nonsense!


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Sun Jun 16 13:50:27 PDT 1996
Article: 43849 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <31C4489E.6BE9@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 10:47:10 -0700
From: Bud 
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Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: here's to "the man"
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Is there a "man" like this on this newsgroup?

	HERE'S TO THE MAN WHO KNOWS WHO HE IS AND WHERE HE STANDS, THE 
MAN WITH ENOUGH CONFIDENCE IN HIS OWN BELIEFS THAT HE ISN'T AFRAID TO LET 
OTHERS EXPRESS THEIRS...

	HERE'S TO THE MAN WHO DOESN'T CLAIM TO KNOW THE ANSWERS UNTIL HE 
HAS TRIED TO UNDERSTAND THE QUESTIONS, THE MAN WITH THE STRENGTH TO HOLD 
AN UNPOPULAR OPINION AND THE COURAGE TO CHANGE HIS MIND...

HERE'S TO THE MAN WHO HAS WISDOM AND HUMOR AND DESERVES THE RESPECT OF 
HIS FRIENDS, HIS FAMILY, AND EVEN THOSE WHO DISAGREE WITH HIM...

HERE'S TO THE MAN WHO AT LEAST REALLY WANTS TO MAKE THIS WORLD A BETTER 
PLACE IN WHICH TO LIVE...

If there are none like that "out there" then it's time to start trying!
By the way, this applies to the women too...


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Tue Jun 18 00:08:57 PDT 1996
Article: 44155 of alt.revisionism
Message-ID: <31C61A28.465F@niven.imsweb.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 19:53:29 -0700
From: Bud 
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Subject: Dresden - the massacre
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Holocaust at Dresden
HOLOCAUST AT DRESDEN
By George Fowler
(from the Barnes Review)

A half century has passed since february 13-14, 1945.  Overnight, one of =

europe's great meccas of art and culture, a city that had become a =

hospital center for german, american and british wounded, that housed =

many thousand allied prisoners of war, and that had become a haven to =

refugees fleeing the red army, was bombed into oblivion.  But the =

perpetrators of one of history's great outrages were to receive the =

laurels of glorious victory rather than a place in the war crimes dock.
Part 1 - PRELUDE TO HOLOCAUST
After nearly three years of unremitting Allied air offensives against =

Germany's civilian population, plans for the destruction of the open city =

of Dresden, incinerating at least 135,000 people, took shape on March 30, =

l942.  However the seeds of such inhuman hate had long since found =

fertile soil at 10 Downing Street and within the White House.
On the above date Prof. F.A. Lindemann, later, Lord Cherwell, the Prime =

Minister's Science Advisor and a jewish refugee from Germany, delivered =

to Winston Churchill a fateful report.  In his book BOMBER COMMAND Max =

Hastings stated that "Cherwell's Report provided the final =

rationalization for the program Bomber Command was undertaking, and it =

would henceforth be paper-clipped to the plans of the bomber offensive."
Lindemann estimated that every 40 tons of bombs "dropped on built-up =

areas" would "make 4,000 to 8,000 people homeless."  This report to the =

PM stated: "In l938 over 22 million Germans lived in 58 towns of over =

100,000 inhabitants, which, with modern equipment, should be easy to find =

and hit."  Hastings concluded that Lindemann "Hoped to create a nation of =

refugees, and no doubt also a good many corpses under the rubble, =

although he was too genteel to say so."
There were of course discussions and disagreements regarding strategic =

and tactical approaches to the bombing of Germany.  But Lindermann's =

report is considered the basic text behind the wholesale bombing of =

civilian targets.  Prior to the report's dispatch to Churchill, a =

February 143, l942 Air Ministry directive to Bomber Command from Air Vice =

Marshal Sir Norman Bottomly contained the following Valentine's Day =

message: =

"You are accordingly authorized to employ your forces without restriction =

=2E . . (operations) should now be focused on the moral of the enemy civil =

population and in particular, of the industrial workers."
On February 22, while Churchill was staying at the White House, it was =

decided that Air Marshal Arthur Harris would leave his post as the head =

of the RAF delegation in Washington (an assignment he had held in neutral =

America beginning June 12, l941) to head Bomber Command. This fateful =

reassignment would team Harris with a PM of kindred instincts in one of =

Western history's most costly and ghastly undertakings.
The first chapters of World War II, from Germany's Sept. 3, l939 invasion =

of Poland to the May-June l940 clash in the West when France capitulated =

and Britain was driven from the continent, saw a scarcity of bombing by =

the belligerents.  This was largely the period of "Sitzkreig" and "Bore =

War"during which Germany's bombing of Warsaw prior to Poland's surrender =

marked the only major incident: a relatively moderate attack that proved =

costly to Germany on the propaganda front.
Throughout the l939-40 months of frontal stalemate in the West, Hitler =

didn't order the Luftwaffe to bomb Britain (while working continually for =

a negotiated peace with London that would allow him to concentrate on his =

plan for land acquisition in the East and the destruction of Bolshevism's =

Soviet bastion).  The Royal Air Force confined its activities to the =

dropping of propaganda leaflets. The bombing of the open city of =

Freiburg-imBreigeu on May 10, l940, killed 22 children, 13 women, 11 men =

and 11 soldiers.  Whether the bombers were French, British or even German =

has never been determined but the civilians killed and the property =

destroyed were real and gave Propaganda Minister Josef Goebbels grist to =

promise that the Luftwaffe would answer the destruction "in a like =

manner."
Four days later the Germans bombed Rotterdam.  From northern German =

airfields some 100 Heinkel III bombers were poised to attack remaining =

resistance zones in the city. However, surrender negotiations with the =

Dutch government were in progress.  The raid, planned for 1500 hrs. (3 =

pm), was ordered postponed after takeoff on a flight of about 100 minutes =

to target areas.  The Dutch government had been stalling during =

negotiating session.  German terms were finally agreed to five minutes =

before the time set for the attack.
But the recall could not be signaled to those bombers that had crossed =

the Netherlands border. At that point they had reeled in their trailing =

aerials allowing long range reception.  A swift fighter was dispatched to =

head off the bombers, and from a German panzer position on the ground at =

Rotterdam, where the mission-scrub signal had been received, signal =

flares were fired to ward off an attack that began just as the flares =

went up.  The signal was received in time to disengage 40 of the =

Heinkels.
The city's main water supply system was hit, and considerable fire ensued =

in one area (no incendiaries were dropped) due largely to hits on a =

margarine plant from which streams of burning oil flowed.  In l9l2 the =

Rotterdam government released figures showing that 980 people had been =

killed in the raid.  The considerable devastation in the city gave Allied =

propagandists a field day, and Rotterdam became the greatest war atrocity =

story since Japan's "Rape of Nanking" in the l930s.
In his l963 book THE DESTRUCTION OF DRESDEN David Irving noted that
"Ninety four tons of bombs had been dropped . . . By comparison, close to =

9,000 tons of high explosives and incendiaries were dropped on the inland =

Ruhr port of Duisburg during the triple blow of 14th October l944."
With Germany's bombing of Britain following France's surrender, strategic =

targets were singled out and hit with a high degree of accuracy.  But on =

the night of August 24, l940 (the main London targets being the vital =

East End dock-shipping-industrial areas), the target was the oil storage =

depot at Thames Haven.  A navigational error led to the bombing of parts =

of the East End, the City and St.  Giles.
The bombing of central London drew the immediate retaliatory response of =

the Royal Air Force.  The following night it bombed Berlin, with slight =

effect.  This enraged Hitler, who issued a command that may have cost =

Germany victory.  He ordered that the Luftwaffe switch its attacks to =

London and away from RAF installations and radar sites.  This allowed the =

severely depleted Fighter Command a short but much needed period to =

regroup.
The Luftwaffe's incredibly costly (most particularly in terms of seasoned =

pilots and crew) London "Blitz" is dated from September 7, l940 to May =

16, l94l.  Luftwaffe figures show that throughout this period 24,177 tons =

of bombs were dropped during 71 major attacks on London and other areas =

of industrial concentration, such as Hull, Liverpool and Manchester.  The =

British calculated that, by the end of l940, 13,399 Britons had been =

killed in raids.
The German raid ranking with Rotterdam in terms of propaganda value was =

the bombing of Coventry in November, l940.  In bombing this industrial =

city Coventry's Cathedral was nearly demolished.  Pictures of its ruins =

filled America's newspapers and newsreel screens.  In his l975 book THE =

FIRST CASUALTY (the title evidently taken from U.S.  Sen. Hiram Johnson's =

1917 observation that "The first casualty, when war comes, is truth."). =

Philip Knoghtly noted that the LONDON TIMES editorialized on the =

"butchery at Coventry . . . The wanton slaughter by a people pretending =

to be civilized who, it would seem, kill mostly for the joy of =

destroying."  Of this Knightly wrote: "Coventry was actually a legitimate =

military target, one of the keys to the British war effort" containing =

such plants as the Standard Motor Co., the British Piston Ring Co., and =

Kaimler motor works and Alvis aero-engine factory.
The British had known of Germany's intent to bomb Coventry due to an =

early intercept of Germany's ENIGMA code system by way or its ULTRA =

codebreaking device.  But Churchill vetoed interception of the Luftwaffe =

attack for fear that it would tip the Germans to the fact that their main =

code had been broken.  Thus Coventry entailed a double deception on the =

part of the British.  But this did not deter Churchill from ordering =

"Operation Rachel."  This was the codename for the December 12, l940 =

Bomber Command attack on Mannheim.  On the PM's direct order it was to be =

a reprisal for the considerable damage done to Coventry and the first =

occasion in the relatively brief annals of air warfare that an entire =

city was to be the deliberate target of attack.
Britain had began the war with a somewhat antiquated bomber capacity.  =

But by l942 and with America's full material support, Bomber Command was =

a formidable force.  In the spring of l942 Harris sold Churchill the =

Chief of Air Staff Sir Charles Portal on a 1,000-plane raid.  Stretching =

all human and material resources, l,047 planes, largely with =

inexperienced crews were gathered.  When Churchill and Harris discussed =

potential casualties, the PM said he was prepared for the loss of 100 =

planes.
Hamburg, Germany's second largest city, was to be the target.  But =

weather conditions dictated a switch to the secondary target and =

Germany's third largest city, Cologne.  The raid was carried out May 30 =

and it was a success.  The city along the Rhine burned deep red well into =

the sky, the great Cathedral's twin spires (one of which would =

subsequently be destroyed) clear silhouettes to the airmen above.  The =

raid had wrought instant devastation unequaled since biblical lore.  Over =

12,000 structures had been totally or partially destroyed, with 45,000 =

people left homeless.  Remarkably, only 496 dead were counted.  The =

water, power gas and telephone complexes were in shambles and 36 =

factories were destroyed, 70 more badly damaged.  Bomber command was =

delighted at the loss of only 40 aircraft.
Max Hastings noted in BOMBER COMMAND that "It was a mere token of the =

destruction Bomber Command would achieve in l942 and 1943 . . ."  In the =

latter months of l942 U.S. Army Air Corps B-17s and B-25 Liberators began =

limited daylight operations against targets in France and Germany.  The =

Air Corps' top brass under Gen. H.H. "Hap" Arnold, in conjunction with =

Bomber Command's leaders were using for an all-out campaign of =

U.S.-daylight/RAF-night operations.  The American airmen had an added =

incentive.  They wanted the postwar establishment of a separate armed =

service co-equal with the Army and Navy.  The bomber offensive was their =

prime opportunity so show what they could do, and it would lead to many =

an unnecessary but destructive mission.
The efforts of the Air Corps-Bomber command lobbying were fully rewarded =

at the Roosevelt-Churchill Casablanca conference in January, l943.  A =

Casablanca directive read: =

"Your primary aim will be the progressive destruction and dislocation of =

the German military, industrial and economic system, and the undermining =

of the moral of the German people to the point where their capacity for =

armed resistance is fatally weakened . . . "
Following Casablanca, America's bomber presence escalated markedly, with =

USAAF (U.S. Army Air Force) fields increasingly dotting the fields of =

eastern England.  The stage was fully set for one of history's darkest =

dramas, and one that would place gold stars signifying a family member =

killed in action in the front windows of tens of thousands of American =

homes.
The physical punch to achieve what "Bomber" Harris had envisioned was now =

in place.  Max Hastings wrote: =

"Long before Casablanca, or even before Cologne, Harris had conceived his =

campaign for the systematic laying-waste of Germany's cities, and he =

never had the slightest intention of being deflected from it."
In the summer of l943 Bomber Command was to unleash its most lethal =

strike of the war save for Dresden, and it would provide the first major =

instance of British and American public doubt and criticism.  Although =

Hamburg had "weathered" Harris's initial 1000-plane raid, it would be =

visited in a manner that can only be recalled as a determined atrocity.  =

In BOMBER HARRIS author Dudly Saward states that the obliteration of =

Hamburg, "which went by the ominous code name of 'Gomorrah,' was planned =

to take place over a period of four nights."
Before his crews took off on the first assault the night of July 24-25, =

Harris told them: =

"The Battle of Hamburg cannot be won in a single night.  It is estimated =

that 10,000 tons of bombs will have to be dropped to complete the process =

of elimination.  To achieve the maximum effect of air bombardment this =

city should be subjected to sustained attack.  On the first attack a =

large number of incendiaries are to be carried in order to saturate the =

fire service."
Few could misunderstand these words or the intent behind them.  This was =

not a surgical or even carpet bombing strike against military or =

industrial targets.  Clearly, this was the premeditated murder of a city =

and its people.  In the series of four Hamburg raids, July 24 to August =

3, Bomber Command dropped 8,621 tons of bombs on the city, 4,309 tons =

being incendiaries.  Eighth Air Force B-17s dropped 771 tons of =

explosives during the third raid.
Initial deaths were estimated at 41,800, but many thousands more died =

subsequently or were never counted due to incineration, burial beneath =

rubble or having been blown to bits.  The four-raid total may have =

equaled Great Britain's official total losses for the war of 41,509, THE =

BOMBER COMMAND DIARIES, published in l985 by Penguin Books, London, =

states that the August 2-3 raid largely failed due to thunder-storms.  =

Thus most of the destruction was wrought in three raids.
In THE DESTRUCTION OF DRESDEN Irving wrote that "When rescue teams =

finally cleared their way into hermetically sealed bunkers and shelters, =

after several weeks, the heat generated inside had been so intense that =

nothing remained of their occupants: only a soft undulating layer of gray =

ash was left in one bunker, from which the number of victims could only =

be estimated as 'between 250 and 300'..."
Despite the highly restrictive censorship regulations applied to Allied =

war correspondents (already deemed supportive of the Allied cause as a =

condition of clearance) fairly large bits and pieces of what the bomber =

offense was about leaked to some prominent civilian figures.  In England, =

among the most telling critics were the country's two premier military =

historians, Maj. Gen. J.F.C. Fuller and Captain Basil Liddell Hart.
In August, l943 Fuller drafted an article (evidently not published) the =

LONDON EVENING STANDARD in which he stated:
"The worst devastation of the Goths, Vandals, Huns, Seljuks and Mongols =

pales into insignificance when compared to the material and moral damage =

now wrought . . ."
Following the thousand-plane Cologne raid Hard drafted a private =

"reflection" that observed: =

"It will be ironical if the defenders of civilization depend for victory =

upon the most barbaric, and unskilled, way of winning a war that the =

modern world had seen . . .  We are not counting for victory on success =

in the way of degrading it to a new low level . . ."
As stated in THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR II, plans were drawn up in =

early June, l944 to define the post-D-Day invasion bomber campaign.  The =

recommended priorities to both Bomber Command and the U.S. 8th and 15th =

Air Force (in Italy) were, in order of priority, oil production, jet and =

V-weapons, ball bearing plants and tank factories.  As Supreme Allied =

Commander, Dwight D. Eisenhower left both the American commanders (Gens. =

Spaatz and Doolittle) and Harris free to develop independently their =

strategic bombing campaigns as they saw fit.  It was clearly an =

opportunity to curtail Harris's incredible excesses.  But Eisenhower, =

essentially a high political functionary in uniform, based higher =

decisions on the wishers of the President and the Prime Minister.
On the scorched road to Dresden there were many occurrences similar
to what happened at Hamburg.  THE BOMBER COMMAND DIARIES, for the
city of Darmstadt on the night of September 11-12, l944, tell that
226 Lancasters and 14 Mosquitoes (light bombers, the four-engine =

Lancaster being Bomber Command's equivalent of the B-17), produced an =

outstandingly accurate and concentrated raid on this almost intact city =

of 120,000 people. A fierce fire area was created in the center and in =

the districts immediately south and east of the center.  Property damage =

in this area was almost complete.  Casualties were very heavy.  The =

deaths of 8,433 people were actually reported to police stations.  This =

figure was made up of: German civilians--1,766 men, 2,743 women and 2,129 =

children, 936 service personnel, 492 foreign workers and 368 prisoners of =

war.
The United States Strategic Bombing survey, compiled after the war, =

concluded that deaths in Darmstadt that night may have exceeded the RAF =

figures (taken from initial German figures) by 5,000 because all deaths =

were not reported by the 49,200 made homeless by the raid and evacuated =

>from  the city.  Today, the city of Darmstadt has final figures of 12,300 =

dead and 70,000 homeless.


PART TWO: The Infernal Firestorm
A Glimpse of Hell





Thus a long pattern of operational intent, in which everything on German =

soil that stood, moved or breathed was considered a legitimate recipient =

of the bomb bay payloads, had been established long before it became =

Dresden's turn.  To begin with, the city was not an industrial center of =

even moderate importance.  It had been bombed once, some 20 USAAF planes =

hitting with considerable accuracy the city's small industrial area as a =

secondary target at midday on October 7, l944 during an attack on the =

Ruhland oil refinery.  This raid was at least consistent with both the =

publicly stated purpose and propaganda regarding the bombing campaign, in =

that it was a basically surgical strike against valid targets.
The essence of pre-holocaust Dresden was described in David Irving's =

book: =

"Not endowed with any one great capital industry like those of Essen and =

Hamburg, even though Dresden was of comparable size, the city's economy =

had been sustained in peacetime by its theaters, museums, cultural =

institutions and home industries."  =

Irving noted that =

"for the British prisoners of war . . . life could not easily be =

bettered. The Dresdeners were familiar with the English from pre-war =

days, when the city had been a cultural center, and many made friends =

among the prisoners=97a large section of which were from 1st Airborne =

Division contingent captured at Arnhem."  =


The factor of pre-war
English familiarity with Dresden, generations of students having visited =

it on the Grand Tour, would play a major part in the raid's aftermath.
Dresden's fate had been sealed at the February 4-11, l945 =

FDR-Churchill-Stalin conference at Yalta.  Reports about the Dresden =

decision center on Stalin's desire to see it savaged as a means of =

enhancing the Red Army's offensive by jamming up German troop movements. =

 U.S. Chief of Staff George C. Marshall announced publicly that Dresden =

had been attacked at Stalin's specific request, although after the war =

the Soviets and East Germans repeatedly referred to the raid as a =

"diabolical plan" of Churchill's "to kill as many people as possible."
Roosevelt and Churchill were of course well aware of Dresden's =

particulars, including the fact that it was a hospital, prisoner of war =

and, now, refugee center.
The concession was allegedly made to soothe the increasingly arrogant and =

intransigent Kremlin dictator.  But given the fact that at Yalta Stalin =

achieved control over Eastern Europe, in-effect control of Mongolia, =

Japan's Kurile Islands, and occupation zone in Korea and a guarantee of =

$20 billion in eventual German reparations, one might have thought that =

the bear had been amply fed.
After Yalta and the war, Churchill of course went into his "deeply =

suspicious of Stalin" act just as he had feigned surprise at FDR's =

unconditional surrender announcement at Casablanca.  However, just before =

flying from Russia on February 14, at the very moment of Dresden's =

awesome trauma, he lauded his hosts' "great leader."  And the ever =

theatrical PM, who certainly ranked with fellow dipsomaniac thespians =

John Barrymore and Richard Burton, lauded "The redeemed Crimea, cleansed =

by Russian valor from the foul taint of the Huns."
Dresden had once been a pivotal communications and rail center important =

to the Wehrmacht.  But as Irving notes, by the time it received its fatal =

blow, "The city's strategic significance was scarcely marginal . . . " it =

was home to 630,000 permanent residents, its numbers swelled by German =

and Allied wounded, Allied POWs and hundreds of thousands of refugees =

fleeing areas in the path of the Red Army's advance.  The city's =

authorities were convinced that a non strategic city with a large number =

of military hospitals, POW compounds, etc., would not receive anything =

approaching the annihilative smashing so many other cities and towns had =

undergone.  Therefore most of the air defense and flak batteries that =

would otherwise be in Dresden were transferred to areas where it was =

assumed they'd be needed.
In THE BOMBER COMMAND WAR DIARIES the basic facts of the February 13-14 =

Dresden raids were recounted: =

"796 Lancasters and 9 Mosquitoes were dispatched in two separate raids =

and dropped 1,478 tons of high explosives and 1,182 tons of incendiary =

bombs . . . 311 American B-17s dropped 771 tons of bombs on Dresden the =

next day, with the railway yards as their aiming point.  Part of the =

American Mustang (P-51) fighter escort was ordered to strafe traffic on =

the roads around Dresden to increase the chaos.  The Americans bombed =

Dresden again on the 15th and on March 2 but it was generally accepted =

that it was the RAF night raid which caused the most serious damage."  =

Of the American strafing Irving noted: =

"British prisoners who had been released from their burning camps were =

among those to suffer the discomfort of machine gun attacks . . . =

Wherever columns of tramping people were marching in or out of the city =

they were pounced on by the fighters, and machine-gunned or raked with =

cannon fire."
On February 12 the last pre-attack refugee train had pulled into Dresden. =

 People continued to flow into the city from the East, in foot or packed =

into horse drawn carts. Dresden had not been declared an open city, but =

few who would attempt to justify its devastation could deny its in-effect =

status as such.
One RAF Flight Engineer recalled that the brightness of the fires below =

allowed him to fill in his log sheet by the light that shot skyward. A =

crewman of another plane wrote: =

"I confess to taking a glance downward as the bombs fell, and I witnessed =

the shocking sight of a city on fire from end to end.  Dense smoke could =

be seen drifting away from Dresden, leaving a brilliantly illuminated =

view of the town.  My immediate reaction was a stunned reflection on the =

comparison between the holocaust below and the warnings of the =

evangelists in Gospel meetings before the war."
David Irving noted that =

"In many cases during the night raids,
people, finding that dense suffocating fumes from above were rolling down =

into the unventilated basements, broke down the wall breaches.  Thus the =

smoke had access to the next-door cellars as well."  =

One survivor wrote: =

"The detonations shook the cellar walls.  The sound of the explosives =

mixed with a new, strange sound, which seemed to come closer and closer, =

the sound of a thundering waterfall; it was the sound of the mighty =

tornado howling into the inner city."
Retired Major James "Knobby" Walsh was an Army Air Corps bombardier in =

WWII and is a subscriber THE BARNES REVIEW.  He forwarded the following =

passage from Edward Jablonski's AIR WAR=97WINGS OF FIRE (Doubleday & Co.): =

"The horror and the terror on the ground was incredible, destruction was =

extensive, and the loss of life was frightful.  The beautiful little =

city, its population swollen by an influx of refugees from the east =

fleeing before the Russians bent on revenge, pillage and rape, and its =

predominantly wooden buildings, ideal for incendiaries, all but vanished =

in a howling whirlwind of incineration.  Although it is unlikely that the =

true toll will ever be known, the number of people probably killed at =

Dresden was about 135,000 (as compared with the atomic bombing of =

Hiroshima, which killed 71,379)."
In the l966 book ORDEAL BY FIRE author Roul Tunley described the Dresden =

experience of an American woman from New Jersey, Anne Wahle, who had gone =

to prewar Europe as the wife of an Austrian diplomat.  She had survived =

the Hamburg raids and she and her three children would eventually walk =

and ride hundreds of miles from Dresden to safety.  She recalled: =

"I had never seen anything like it.  Howling gusts of hurricane force =

whipped flames in all directions.  Nothing seemed to be spared.  I =

watched little trains of flame race along garden paths and ignite a tree =

of even a stone ornament."
In THE FIRST CASUALTY Knightly wrote: =

"The flames ate everything organic, everything that would burn. People =

died by the thousands: cooked, incinerated or suffocated. Then American =

planes came the next day to machine-gun survivors as they struggled to =

the banks of the Elbe."  =

Knightly added that =

"Precise casualty figures will never be
known.  The German authorities stopped counting when the known dead =

reached 25,000 and 35,000 were still missing.  Some post-war sources put =

the number of dead at from 100,000 to 130,000, which would greatly exceed =

the number killed in the atom-bombing of Hiroshima . .  . Dresden was =

merely a staging center for a half million refugees from Silesia. The =

(rail) yards were not even attacked.  There were no ammunition workshops =

and factories, only a small works making optical lenses for gun sights."


PART THREE: Aftermath: Coverups and Lies


The horror extended well into the aftermath, with countless thousands =

lacking a bare subsistence food ration in addition to adequate winter =

shelter.  Tens of thousands with various degrees of burns and other =

injuries went unattended.  Dresden had 19 major hospitals, all of them =

damaged to some degree during the raids and three of them totally wiped =

out.  As the Allied air brass knew, Dresden was a center for convalescing =

Wehrmacht personnel from all fronts as well as for Allied wounded, a =

large number of them airmen. =

Fully realizing the extent of the destruction and the circumstances under =

which it was meted out, London moved to cover its position even before =

the follow-up American raid.  At 9 am on February 14 the Air Ministry =

released a full-length bulletin.  Irving wrote: =

"In a statement describing the target city in unusual detail, the Air =

Ministry stressed the vital importance of Dresden to the enemy: As the =

center of a railway network and as a great industrial town it had become =

of the greatest value for controlling the German defenses against Marshal =

Koniev's Armies." =

Knightly pointed out that Ministry of
Defense records show that no war correspondents flew with the bombers, =

and that there were no eyewitness accounts save for "a few air crews =

interviewed on their return, and they were given various concocted =

explanations as to why they were bombing the city=97they were attacking =

German army headquarters, destroying an arms dump, knocking out an =

industrial area, or even 'wiping out a large poison gas plant." =

>From  THE FIRST CASUALTY: =

"The truth first came out in
Sweden.  At 10:15 am on February 15 a Swedish news bulletin transmitted =

in Danish to occupied Denmark said that the death toll in Dresden was =

already between 20,000 and 35,000."  =

Then newspapers in neutral countries began printing stories of the raid. =

 On February 17, the Associated Press reported throughout America: =

"Allied air chiefs have made the long awaited decision to adopt =

deliberate terror bombing of German population centers as a ruthless =

expedient of hastening Hitler's doom." =

Despite the incredible chronological inaccuracy of the "long-awaited =

decision," the Dresden story, basically was out.  But British censors =

placed a solid clamp on the true nature of Dresden. They fed the Fleet =

Street press the official "major strategic target" line.  Thus following =

the raid, readers of the EVENING STANDARD read the lead story, under the =

headline "The Blasting of Dresden" and accompanied by a front page =

picture of bombs dropping on indistinguishable targets, without learning =

anything the government wished withheld. =

In America, however, millions registered feelings of rage, disillusion =

and concern Marshall's statement that the raid was staged at Stalin's =

request set off some anti-administration sentiments in Congress.  But =

overall, Roosevelt's bitter enemies were wary of exposing themselves to =

accusations of criticism during wartime, a factor that had severely =

curtailed the Dewey-Rricker Republican ticket in 1944 when FDR won his =

fourth term.
In volume three of THE ARMY AIR FORCES IN WORLD WAR 88, published by the =

University of Chicago press, it was stated that "General Arnold was =

disconcerted about the publicity" that the AP story had generated and =

that "Eisenhower heard all about the issue, and AAF headquarters, aware =

of the damaging impression the recent publicity had made, took steps to =

prevent another break." =

England's Fleet Street blackout did not prevent members of Parliament =

>from  becoming privy to Dresden's slaughter.  Many MP, especially those =

who had fond memories of the city, reacted with outrage.  Churchill, the =

holocaust's ultimate button-pusher, became the target of considerable =

friendly fire. =

In BOMBER HARRIS Seaward noted that "The whole question of the Allied =

bombing policy suddenly came under question."  In March, Churchill wrote =

the Chiefs of Staff: "Lit seems to me that the moment has come when the =

question of bombing the German cities simply for the sake of increasing =

the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed."  Saward =

found it amazing that "Churchill, of all people" would reach this =

conclusion in the wake of severe criticism.  He noted that the PM "had =

been the greatest proponent of destroying Germany city by city . . ." =

Few today realize that in early l945 the
U.S. carried out from England six robot missions of B-17s, each loaded =

with 10 tons of explosives.  The planes were "war weary" craft that had =

been stripped of armor and armament.  Pilots got the drone bombers =

airborne and pointed toward their German targets, then bailed out.  None =

had been successful in hitting specific targets, and the project was =

scrapped due to British objections.  Air Chief Marshal Sir Charles Portal =

had expressed fears that the Germans, with a great number of planes but =

few surviving pilots, would be tempted to reply in kind.  As to the =

German V-1 and V-2 rocket bombs that fell on England in l944, few dispute =

that they were aimed at strategic targets but that there were a large =

number of civil casualties.
Following the war, involved American and British air commanders would =

fudge and rationalize the years of day-night civilian slaughter.  A B-17 =

navigator, now a lawyer in Northern Virginia, recalls that in raiding =

Munich their PMI (Point of Maximum Impact) target was the large fountain =

in the center of the city's business district at high noon, "in order =

that we could catch the most people out at lunchtime." =

But "Bomber" Harris remained unmoved by the slaughter, devastation of =

cultural landmarks and public criticism.  The Cromwellian commander raged =

against any diversions of Bomber Command's mission.  In a March 29, l945 =

letter to Air Vice Marshal Sir Norman Bottomly, Harris wrote: =

"The (public) feeling, such as there is, over Dresden could easily be =

explained by a psychiatrist.  It is connected with German bands and =

Dresden shepherdesses." =

And in writing Bottomry, a man who knew all the grim details of the =

Dresden reality, Harris prompted the question of who might better benefit =

>from  the ministrations of a psychiatrist: =

"Actually Dresden was a mass of munitions works, and intact government =

center, and a key transportation point to the Least.  It is now none of =

these." =

Writing of Harris after the war, the compilers of the official British =

history of WWII wrote: =

"Sir Arthur Harris made a habit of seeing only one side of a question, =

and then exaggerating it.  He had a tendency to confuse advice with =

interference, criticism with sabotage and evidence with propaganda."
However, Harris was seen quite differently by America's two most =

celebrated figures of that period.  In a July 13, l945 letter that went =

well beyond cordial recognition, Supreme Allied Commander Dwight D. =

Eisenhower wrote Harris: =

"My gratitude to you is a small token for the magnificent service which =

you have rendered, and my simple expression of thanks sounds totally =

inadequate.  Time and opportunity prohibit the chance I should like to =

shake you and your men by the hand, and thank each of you personally for =

all that you have done."
On October 17, 1944 Harris had been awarded America's Legion of Merit =

with the degree of Chief Commander.  The citation concluded: =

"He performed his complex task with inspiring leadership and with =

outstanding cooperation, skill and determination, reflecting great credit =

upon the service he represents and upon the Armed forces of the United =

Nations. (Signed) Franklin D. Roosevelt." =

And of the long and terrible bombing offensive that emanated from =

Cherwell and Churchill, and that cost 50,000 American and 55,000 British =

and Commonwealth lives, Max Hastings observed: =

"It is almost beyond belief that the German army continued to resist so =

effectively even amidst the rubble of a nation.  The Wehrmacht's dogged =

retreat, and the continued output from the factories until the final =

weeks, rendered the concept of moral bombing finally absurd." =

As with
Cromwell in Ireland and Roberts and Kitchener in South Africa, Sir Arthur =

Harris had broken their walls.  But he had not broken their courage.
This was from: The Barnes Review, 130 Third Street, SE, Washington,
DC 20003, 1-714-548-5530
"...To Bring History into Accord With the Facts"
In the tradition of the Father of Historical Revisionism
=95	Dr. Harry Elmer Barnes

SUBSCRIPTION RATES:
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tom moran wrote:
> 
>  "Southern Baptist Convention Votes to Try to Convert Jews"
>                     N.Y. Times, June 14, 1996
> 
>         "The Southern Baptist Convention today adopted a resolution
> calling for efforts to convert Jews.
> 
>         Early reaction to the Southern Baptist's resoultion, ...
> suggested that it was certain to strain relations with Jewish groups.
> 
>         News of the resolution, and of the missionary appointment,
> brought criticism in interviews with two leading Jewish specialists in
> interreligious relations.
> 
>         'My reaction is this is a great setback', said Rabbi A. James
> Rudin, ... American Jewish Committee.
> 
>         Rabbi Leon Klenicki, ...Anti-Defamation League, ...said he was
> 'very sad' about the resolution, 'Especially after the Holocaust,
> Christians have no right to talk about a mission to the Jews'.
>                          ______________
> 
>         On the flip side of the page, was one of those full page
> propaganda layouts by the same ADL, exploiting the wide spread fires
> to black churches.
>                   "The Fire of Hate Consumes Us All"
>         Below a 9" X 9" photo of a burning church the copy includes:
> "They have defaced the values that affect each of us. They have
> violated our American guarantees of freedom regardless of race,
> religion or ethnicity".
> 
>         "At the Anti-Defamation League, we know all too well that people
> of goodwill must never be silent in the face of bigotry. The
> consequences of silence are deadly."
> 
>         "ADL will continue to combat hatred and bigotry on other fronts
> as well--tracking and exposing haters and hate groups, promoting laws
> against hate crimes ..."
> 
>         The full page ad winds up:
> "Edmund Burke said it best, '"All that is necessary for the triumph of
> evil is for good men to do nothing".
> 
>         Of course it is well documented how this ADL and all the other
> Jewish organizations work very hard to silence any negative discussion
> about Israel. And it is no secret that Holocaust revisionism is a hate
> crime in the minds of the likes of the ADL.
> 

I was rather disappointed too, Tom, to note the reactions shown on the 
media.  I think that when the spokesman for the Jews (I forget his name) 
stated this was "the height of arrogance" he was being too harsh, failing 
to understand it is the nature of many Christians to "evangelize" 
unbelievers.  Many Christians believe this was a command of Jesus Christ, 
the Lord God.  Within that context, the Christians (those who evangelize) 
are merely obeying what they believe to be a mandate from Christ.  I 
guess it's not possible to do this at times without "seeming" arrogant, 
but many Christian believe that the ONLY way for a person to be saved 
>from  Hell is through the Lord Jesus Christ, and so they are 
well-inentioned in their motives. I, by the way, am one of those who also 
believe this to be true (you CANNOT be saved without Christ), however, I 
don't conduct myself as though I were "trying to save the world by 
sundown!"  I hope this is okay with Christ too...!


From budwrite@niven.imsweb.net Tue Jun 18 10:16:34 PDT 1996
Article: 44269 of alt.revisionism
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Date: Mon, 17 Jun 1996 14:57:48 -0700
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Subject: Re: Communism is Jewish - Read it and weep.
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maddog@rippers.com wrote:
> 
> joebuck@ix.netcom.com (Charles) wrote:
> 
> >In <4pnk7c$q36@news.usaor.net> mckinney@usaor.net (Ian McKinney)
> >writes:
> >>
> >>I heard not long ago on this group several persons moaning about the
> >>claim that Bolshevism was primarily a Jewish movement. Oh, I know it's
> >>"hate" they say to mention anything derogatory about God's master
> >>race. Totally without truth they will tell you. Well, fortunately
> >>there were more than a few who happened to be in Russia in 1917 and
> >>actually saw what so many today want to deny. I'll provide facts to
> >>back-up my claims.
> >>
> >>I'll bypass the well known fact that Karl Marx was a Jew. That can be
> >>discovered in any library. Let's see the lovers of the Jews deny
> >>diplomatic cables that passed between American representatives and
> >>Washington D.C. during that time, and are available from the U.S.
> >>Archives.
> 
> Below is a list of the primary Bolshevek revolution leaders, and their
> birth names, that can be found in most any good encyclopedia should
> anyone care to confirm it themselves:
> 
> Name           (Real Name)              Nationality
> Lenin          Ulyanov                  Rus/Jewish
> Trotsky        Bronstein                Jewish
> Martoff        Zederbaum                Jewish
> Zinoviev       Apfelbaum                Jewish
> Steckloff      Nakhames                 Jewish
> Kamenov        Rosenfeld(t)             Jewish
> Dan            Gourevitch               Jewish
> Ganetzky       Furstenberg              Jewish
> Parvus         Helpfand                 Jewish
> Uritzky        Padonilsky               Jewish
> Larin          Lurge                    Jewish
> Bohrin         Nathansohn               Jewish
> Martinoff      Zibar                    Jewish
> Bogdanoff      Zilberstein              Jewish
> Garin          Garfeld                  Jewish
> Suchanoff      Gimel                    Jewish
> Kamnelff       Goldman                  Jewish
> Sagersky       Krochmann                Jewish
> Riazanoff      Goldenbach               Jewish
> Solutezeff     Bleichmann               Jewish
> Piatnitzky     Ziwin                    Jewish
> Axelrod        Orthodox                 Jewish
> Glasnuoff      Schultze                 Jewish
> Zuriesain      Weinstein                Jewish
> Lapinsky       Loewensohn               Jewish
> 
> After Reading the above, there can be no question at to the role of
> the Khazarian Jewish Communists in the Bolshevik Revolution which
> overthrew Christian Russia.
> 
> And then there were these tidbits....
> 
>      "Individual revolutionary leaders of Jewish origin - such as
> Trotsky, Zinoviev, Kamemev, and Sverdlov - played a conspicuous part
> in the revolution of November, 1917. which enabled the Bolshevists to
> take possession of the state apparatus" - Universal Jewish
> Encyclopedia, Vol IX, pg. 668
> 
> The Jewish writer, M. Cohen in an article published in _The Communist_
> (a Soviet paper), wrote: "The Great Russian revolution was indeed
> accomplished by the hands of the Jews.  There are no Jews in the ranks
> of the red Army as far as _privates_ are concerned, but in the
> Committees (Soviet), and the Soviet organization as Commissars, the
> Jews are gallantly leading the masses.  The symbol of Jewry has become
> the symbol of the Russian proletariat, which can be seen in the fact
> of the adoption of the five-pointed star, which in former times was
> the symbol of Zionism and Jewry."
> 
> The ramifications of the Bolshevik takeover of Russia were dire.
> Estimates are that anywhere from 30 to 80 million Christians (60
> million according to Soltzchenytsin) were killed at the hands of the
> atheistic Khazarian Communist Bolshevik "Jews".  This included
> millions of Jews themselves who were sacrificed at the Khazarian alter
> of blood.  This Christian Holocaust is one you never hear of and is
> one of the most horrific in history.  The Khazarians will not hesitate
> to sacrifice even their "own" (or especially true Jews).
> 
> During the Bolshevik Revolution, the Khazarian Jewish banker, Jacob
> Schiff (who helped establish the Federal Reserve) helped to send
> Trotsky to Russia with a support of $20 million dollars!
> 
> At the time, the Jewish bankers, the Warburgs (Max, Felix and Paul)
> were co-directors with Jacob Schiff of the New York Banking House
> of Kuhn, Loeb & Co.  The _American Civil Servant Document_ 65th
> Congress, 3rd Session, contains the following:
> 
>      "It was found that the following persons, as well as the banking
> house mentioned, were engaged in these work of destruction (meaning
> the subsidizing of Russian revolutionaries); Jacob Schiff, Guggenheim,
> Max Breitung, Kuhn Loeb & Co., Felix Warburg, Otto Kahn, Mortimer
> Schiff, and S.J. Hanauer."  (all Khazarians).
> 
> The London Jewish Chronicle of Jan. 6, 1933 reported, "Over one-third
> of the Jews in Russia have become officials."
> 
> The "Jewish" nature of the Bolshevik Revolution was not lost on some
> international leaders.  That the Revolution was plotted, organized,
> financed and managed by "Jews" (Khazarians) was further revealed by
> Winston Churchill in the following statement:
> 
>      "There is no need to exaggerate the part played in the creation
> of Bolshevism and in the actual bringing about of the Russian
> Revolution by these international atheistic Jews.  The Majority of the
> leading figures are Jews.  Moreover, the principal inspiration and
> driving power comes from the Jewish leaders.  In the Soviet
> institutions the prominence of Jews is even more astonishing..."
> 
> Churchill again, in the "_Sunday Herald_" of 8-2-20 wrote;
> 
>      "I deal here with the schemes of the International Jew...This
> movement among the Jews is not new.  From the days of Spartacus-
> Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun
> (Hungary), Rosa Luxemberg (Germany), Emma Goldman (U.S.A.), this
> world-wide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilization, and for the
> re-construction of society on the basis of arrested development, of
> envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily
> growing."
> 
> Further confirmation is given by the "_The American Hebrew_" as
> follows:
> 
>      "The Bolshevist Revolution in Russia was the work of Jewish
> brains, of Jewish dissatisfaction, of Jewish planning whose goal is to
> create a _new order_ in the world.  What was performed in so excellent
> a way in Russia, thanks to Jewish brains, and because of Jewish
> dissatisfaction, and by Jewish planning, shall also, through the same
> Jewish mental and physical forces, become a reality all over the
> world."
> 
> This brief history of Russia should awaken people, most especially all
> good Jews, to the danger of the Khazarian Communist Zionist "Jews" in
> our midst.  They are the "One World Order" right from the Crown of
> England, the British Israeli Zionists/Committee of 300, international
> bankers, "Metro/1313", Federal Reserve, U.N., 'state' of Israel, and
> British Intelligence (CIA, ADL, MI-6, etc.)  ALL interconnected and
> _planned_ organizations, the common denominator being the _KHAZARIANS_
> regardless of agency or country.
> 
> References:
> 
> 1: The Iron Curtain Over America, by John Beaty.
> 2: Behind Communism, by Frank Britton.
> 3: Three Who Made a Revolution, by Bertram D. Wolfe.
> 4: Universal Jewish Dictionary
> 5: Universal Jewish Encyclopedias

I must agree with this.  Any attempt to avoid the evidence that many of 
the initial leaders of the Bolshevik revolution were Jewish is avoiding 
the evidence of many historians.  It is ironic that some of the 
exterminationist want their opponents to so readily accept, almost 
without question, their leaders rendition of a "holocaust", etc., and yet 
deny this well-established historical reality.  I suggest obtaining a 
copy of "The Hand That Signed The Paper" which is a recent publication in 
Australia that is purported to deal with this in depth.



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