The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/f/finsten.laura/1997/finsten.0197


From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Wed Jan  1 20:38:53 PST 1997
Article: 41756 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Nova: Indians Exterminated Mammoth, Horse, etc.
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 21:36:05 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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References: <59asja$407@lex.zippo.com> <59c291$1rs@news1.ucsd.edu> <59c60o$2tk@lex.zippo.com>  <59f58e$rh3@lex.zippo.com>  <5a3v8k$4sl@lex.zippo.com>  <5a9s8o$48i@lex.zippo.com> <5abc3q$bg3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5abtsa$rbl@lex.zippo.com> <5adqji$bs3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5aeb25$lmv@lex.zippo.com>
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On 1 Jan 1997 Ourobouros@.MISSING-HOST-NAME. wrote:

> In article <5adqji$bs3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...
[...]

> >>>This single quotation provides some support for your case, Sr. Comecola, but
> >>>it is not an adequate empirical basis for the sort of sweeping generalisation
> >>>you are endeavoring to make.

> >>I understand your points above.  Captain John Smith only really investigated
> >>(dwelt/researched) the NA Indians around his locality (Jamestown).  But, on
> >>saying this, do you have any (early colonial and anthropological literature)
> >>that goes against Captain John Smith's journals?

> >What exactly do you mean by "early...anthropological literature"?  You 
> >realise,  of course, that most of what was written about native people 
> >in the colonial era and 19th century was concerned with depicting them 
> >in such a way to legitimate taking their land and destroying whatever
> >vestiges of social institutions remained after decades or centuries of
> >displacement, disease and, in some cases, out and out slaughter.  (If you
> >think that Europeans have never engaged in genocide, Sr. Comecola, I
> >recommend to you that read what the British did to the Beothuk Indians
> >of Newfoundland.)

> Mr. Braun asserted that early colonial and anthropological literature supported
> his one-eyed belief that the NA Indian was an innate conservationist.  What you
> have written above undermines Mr. Braun's narrow reality even more -- that
> being the early ... literature supporting his beliefs.

My name is not Braun.  I am not reiterating or elaborating on what Mr. Braun
may or may not have written, I am responding to what you have written.  Since
the discipline of anthropology emerged some centuries *after* the 
colonisation of North America, there is and can be no "early anthropological
literature" based on ethnographic observation which bears on this issue.

> Since when did this conversation enter into the battle of what the Europeans
> did?  We are talking about what the NA Indians did concerning their status with
> nature.

What the Europeans did is absolutely relevant to understanding the 
context and, hence, the motives and reliability, of first hand accounts 
such as the one you cited.

> Who or what is Sr. Comecola?

My translation of your name for yourself, Colin, is it?

> >I would recommend that you begin with the multivolume series "The Handbook
> >of North American Indians", published by the Smithsonian Institution.
> >
> And when was that published? -- we are talking about early ... literature you
> know.

Do you remember Franz Boas?  Do you remember when he established the 
department of anthropology at Columbia University?  Do you know enough 
North American history to know that by time anthropologists were doing 
ethnographic research on this continent, that native societies had 
already been radically transformed and marginalised?  Many of the 
articles in the Handbook volumes are based on ethnohistorical research.  
The dates for the volumes' publication varies, but most came out in the 
1980s.


From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Thu Jan  2 08:13:09 PST 1997
Article: 41837 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Nova: Indians Exterminated Mammoth, Horse, etc.
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 09:29:20 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 38
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References: <59f58e$rh3@lex.zippo.com>  <5a3v8k$4sl@lex.zippo.com>  <5a9s8o$48i@lex.zippo.com> <5abc3q$bg3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5abtsa$rbl@lex.zippo.com> <5adqji$bs3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5aeb25$lmv@lex.zippo.com>  <32CB563B.2F68@interport.net>
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On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Alan Miles wrote:

> Laura Finsten wrote:

> > What the Europeans did is absolutely relevant to understanding the
> > context and, hence, the motives and reliability, of first hand accounts
> > such as the one you cited.

> What the Europeans "did" in America is what humans have always done,
> they settled on land and defended it from everyone else.

Do you have a problem with reading comprehension, Alan?  Nowhere did I 
say that the European colonisation of the Americas was a unique 
historical event, or that Europeans did anything here that had not 
previously been done in other parts of the world and has not subsequently 
been done elsewhere.  I was talking about the importance of historical 
context in interpreting the writings of those colonists.

You do seem to blithely ignore the fact that in order to settle land, 
though, Europeans had to take it away from the natives who already 
occupied it.  That is a pretty important detail.  Nothing unique about 
it, but let's not pretend it didn't happen.

> This idea that Europeans committed a terrible and unique crime is
> laughable.  Europeans in America just settled down and defended
> themselves from native Americans and fellow Europeans.  The Europeans in
> America had as good a claim to the land as anyone else.

Are you anti-immigrationist, Alan?  I find it odd that you think that 
someone showing up in a boat has "as good a claim to the land as" people 
who had been living on it for ten or fifteen thousand years.

> This is NOT to say they committed no crimes.  It IS to say they weren't
> wrong to settle on the land and to live there.

I guess that all depends on whether you think prior occupation gives 
someone a better claim.  I guess you believe in eviction and squatters' 
rights.


From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Fri Jan  3 07:50:57 PST 1997
Article: 41959 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Nova: Indians Exterminated Mammoth, Horse, etc.
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:22:46 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 82
Message-ID: 
References:  <59f58e$rh3@lex.zippo.com>  <5a3v8k$4sl@lex.zippo.com>  <5a9s8o$48i@lex.zippo.com> <5abc3q$bg3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5abtsa$rbl@lex.zippo.com> <5adqji$bs3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5aeb25$lmv@lex.zippo.com>  <5ah3ou$5cr@lex.zippo.com>
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On 2 Jan 1997 Ourobouros@.MISSING-HOST-NAME. wrote:

> In article , Laura says...

> >On 1 Jan 1997 Ourobouros@.MISSING-HOST-NAME. wrote:

> >> In article <5adqji$bs3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

[...]

> *Sigh*

> I forget that with you I must dot my i's and cross my t's.  Yes, officially,
> because Captain John Smith and others didn't have a magic piece of paper they
> were not anthropologists, even though what they wrote would qualify as
> cultural anthropology or ethnology, but alas, they failed to have that magic
> piece of paper, so I suppose you can just right them off as no nothing 
> nobodies -- afterall, they don't fit your pet theories.

Not at all, Colin.  Because the observations of early settlers involved 
subjects who are of anthropological interest does not make the observers 
themselves anthropologists.  Anthropologists are people who are trained 
in the methods and theory of anthropology.  The discipline is defined by 
more than the scope of its subject matter.

> >> Since when did this conversation enter into the battle of what the Europeans
> >> did?  We are talking about what the NA Indians did concerning their status with
> >> nature.

> >What the Europeans did is absolutely relevant to understanding the 
> >context and, hence, the motives and reliability, of first hand accounts 
> >such as the one you cited.

> No, it is not.  Whether Europeans who butchering or being butchered by NA
> Indians is not relevant, except to apologists who justify their pet theories
> with the evil white man propaganda.

Excuse me, but are you not one of the people here who is constantly 
harping about how "politically correct" people are blinded by their 
political ideologies, and how this colours their perceptions?  Are you 
about to now try to argue that this only began in the last decade or two 
when the phrase "politically correct" became popular?  Dehumanising 
rhetoric is always a part of conquest and colonisation, Sr. Comecola.

> >> Who or what is Sr. Comecola?
	
> >My translation of your name for yourself, Colin, is it?

> Who?

Colin.

> You still haven't explained Sr. Comecola.

No, I haven't, have I.  Guess you'll have to figure out what language it 
is and look it up in a dictionary.

> >> >I would recommend that you begin with the multivolume series "The Handbook
> >> >of North American Indians", published by the Smithsonian Institution.

> >> And when was that published? -- we are talking about early ... literature you
> >> know.

> >Do you remember Franz Boas?  Do you remember when he established the 
> >department of anthropology at Columbia University?  Do you know enough 
> >North American history to know that by time anthropologists were doing 
> >ethnographic research on this continent, that native societies had 
> >already been radically transformed and marginalised?  Many of the 
> >articles in the Handbook volumes are based on ethnohistorical research.  
> >The dates for the volumes' publication varies, but most came out in the 
> >1980s.

> Captain John Smith wrote in the 1600s, not in the 1980s.

Ethnohistory is the interpretation of documents like Smith's by 
anthropologists, using anthropological and historical methods, and 
anthropological concepts.  Just like history is the interpretation of 
documents like census records by historians using historical methods and 
concepts.  Smith was no more an anthropologist (or ethnohistorian) than 
someone taking a census in 1580 in Mexico was a historian.




From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Fri Jan  3 08:19:40 PST 1997
Article: 54532 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Nova: Indians Exterminated Mammoth, Horse, etc.
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 22:22:46 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 82
Message-ID: 
References:  <59f58e$rh3@lex.zippo.com>  <5a3v8k$4sl@lex.zippo.com>  <5a9s8o$48i@lex.zippo.com> <5abc3q$bg3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5abtsa$rbl@lex.zippo.com> <5adqji$bs3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <5aeb25$lmv@lex.zippo.com>  <5ah3ou$5cr@lex.zippo.com>
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On 2 Jan 1997 Ourobouros@.MISSING-HOST-NAME. wrote:

> In article , Laura says...

> >On 1 Jan 1997 Ourobouros@.MISSING-HOST-NAME. wrote:

> >> In article <5adqji$bs3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

[...]

> *Sigh*

> I forget that with you I must dot my i's and cross my t's.  Yes, officially,
> because Captain John Smith and others didn't have a magic piece of paper they
> were not anthropologists, even though what they wrote would qualify as
> cultural anthropology or ethnology, but alas, they failed to have that magic
> piece of paper, so I suppose you can just right them off as no nothing 
> nobodies -- afterall, they don't fit your pet theories.

Not at all, Colin.  Because the observations of early settlers involved 
subjects who are of anthropological interest does not make the observers 
themselves anthropologists.  Anthropologists are people who are trained 
in the methods and theory of anthropology.  The discipline is defined by 
more than the scope of its subject matter.

> >> Since when did this conversation enter into the battle of what the Europeans
> >> did?  We are talking about what the NA Indians did concerning their status with
> >> nature.

> >What the Europeans did is absolutely relevant to understanding the 
> >context and, hence, the motives and reliability, of first hand accounts 
> >such as the one you cited.

> No, it is not.  Whether Europeans who butchering or being butchered by NA
> Indians is not relevant, except to apologists who justify their pet theories
> with the evil white man propaganda.

Excuse me, but are you not one of the people here who is constantly 
harping about how "politically correct" people are blinded by their 
political ideologies, and how this colours their perceptions?  Are you 
about to now try to argue that this only began in the last decade or two 
when the phrase "politically correct" became popular?  Dehumanising 
rhetoric is always a part of conquest and colonisation, Sr. Comecola.

> >> Who or what is Sr. Comecola?
	
> >My translation of your name for yourself, Colin, is it?

> Who?

Colin.

> You still haven't explained Sr. Comecola.

No, I haven't, have I.  Guess you'll have to figure out what language it 
is and look it up in a dictionary.

> >> >I would recommend that you begin with the multivolume series "The Handbook
> >> >of North American Indians", published by the Smithsonian Institution.

> >> And when was that published? -- we are talking about early ... literature you
> >> know.

> >Do you remember Franz Boas?  Do you remember when he established the 
> >department of anthropology at Columbia University?  Do you know enough 
> >North American history to know that by time anthropologists were doing 
> >ethnographic research on this continent, that native societies had 
> >already been radically transformed and marginalised?  Many of the 
> >articles in the Handbook volumes are based on ethnohistorical research.  
> >The dates for the volumes' publication varies, but most came out in the 
> >1980s.

> Captain John Smith wrote in the 1600s, not in the 1980s.

Ethnohistory is the interpretation of documents like Smith's by 
anthropologists, using anthropological and historical methods, and 
anthropological concepts.  Just like history is the interpretation of 
documents like census records by historians using historical methods and 
concepts.  Smith was no more an anthropologist (or ethnohistorian) than 
someone taking a census in 1580 in Mexico was a historian.




From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Sat Jan  4 01:21:33 PST 1997
Article: 90900 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Save Our Western European Culture
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:29:31 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 10
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References: <5ag4cn$2r@juliana.sprynet.com> <32cd106b.4507532@news.demon.co.uk> <32CD37D9.616D@phoenix.net>
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On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Doc Tavish wrote:

[...]

> How much Western European civilization
> is represented on radio these days. I hear more of a jungle beat than
> anything else. We should be be made to feel ashamed of our heritage.
> Listen to Mozart today! Percy Grainger is good too!

I highly recommend CBC-FM.


From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Sat Jan  4 09:44:02 PST 1997
Article: 90921 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dilling Demonized- Why?
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:12:29 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 19
Message-ID: 
References: <19970103163300.LAA18378@ladder01.news.aol.com> <19970103192600.OAA22702@ladder01.news.aol.com> <32CD8996.C1B@phoenix.net>
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On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Doc Tavish wrote:

> I have always demanded of my self to use only credible sources.

Is this why you have commented on Daniel Goldhagen's "Hitler's Willing 
Executioners", even though you have not actually read the book yourself, Doc?

 If
> Dilling is a scam then I will find out and stop using her. Her material
> looks authentic to me. I have been using primarily material that Jews
> themselves have written such as Lucy Dawidowicz's book. I just thought I
> would use gentiles for a while- BUT they must be 100% credible too or
> else the argument is lost.

And credibility, when citing reviews of Goldhagen's book as just one 
example, depends not on whether they accurately reflect the work itself, 
but on whether they say what you want them to say, Doc?

By the way, I think that Yo Yo Ma is a better cellist than Ofra Harnoy.


From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Sat Jan  4 10:20:17 PST 1997
Article: 54712 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europeans are whites, Americans are almost whites
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 11:05:22 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 40
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References: <01bbf8bf$21015cc0$a1a66ac0@lucaschi> <01bbf99b$d99b47a0$73c6b7c7@default>  <32CD8634.64CF@mail.utexas.edu>
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On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, David N. Hudson wrote:

> Laura Finsten wrote:

> > On 3 Jan 1997, Richard A. Hernandez wrote:

[...]

> > > Yawn. I'm really growing weary of the tripe spewed by these " usefull
> > > idiots. "   What is truly amazing is that people like this " Caesar "
> > > (whoever) exist  and actually think they're right. If people of his ilk
> > > lack the mental capacity to observe that a Nordic and a Hottentot
> > > belong to two distinct subspecies, then what's the use trying to teach
> > > them.

> > Well, in fact the vast majority of human biologists would side against
> > you, so exactly what "ilk" are you talking about?


> If biology lacks the tools needed to distinguish between what, as
> Richard points out, are readily discernable differences, then maybe we
> should not look to biologists for definitions of race. 

You are putting words into my mouth, since I said nothing about human 
biologists being unable to *discern* variation among humans.  It is quite 
another matter, however, to use certain clearly visible characteristics 
to subdivide humans into groups which, according to current biological 
theory, imply distinct evolutionary histories for significant periods of 
time.  This is the significance of "subspecies" designations, and you can 
see exactly the same sorts of debates among ornithologists, who are 
divided about whether there are 22 subspecies of junko, or 2.

 The working
> definition of race is pretty clear to everyone, even high school
> dropouts, and there is little argument on this except possibly from
> those needing fodder for a graduate thesis.

It seems to me that you are confusing a "working definition" with a 
colloquial understanding that fails to understand the biological 
significance of the term.


From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Sat Jan  4 14:09:07 PST 1997
Article: 90984 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europeans are whites, Americans are almost whites
Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 17:32:37 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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On 3 Jan 1997, Richard A. Hernandez wrote:

[...]

> Yawn. I'm really growing weary of the tripe spewed by these " usefull
> idiots. "   What is truly amazing is that people like this " Caesar "  
> (whoever) exist  and actually think they're right. If people of his ilk 
> lack the mental capacity to observe that a Nordic and a Hottentot 
> belong to two distinct subspecies, then what's the use trying to teach
> them.

Well, in fact the vast majority of human biologists would side against 
you, so exactly what "ilk" are you talking about?

[gratuitous insult deleted]


> " La libertad es caro. Y el costo se paga no con las lagrimas
>   de los innocente, pero con la sangre de los valientes."

Cuantas veces ha sido el precio de libertad la sangre de los inocentes?


From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Sat Jan  4 14:24:03 PST 1997
Article: 54728 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Nova: Indians Exterminated Mammoth, Horse, etc.
Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 14:15:46 -0500
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On 3 Jan 1997 Ourobouros@.MISSING-HOST-NAME. wrote:

> In article , Laura says...

[...]

> >> *Sigh*
> >

> >> because Captain John Smith and others didn't have a magic piece of paper they
> >> were not anthropologists, even though what they wrote would qualify as
> >> cultural anthropology or ethnology, but alas, they failed to have that magic
> >> piece of paper, so I suppose you can just right them off as no nothing 
> >> nobodies -- afterall, they don't fit your pet theories.

> >Not at all, Colin.  Because the observations of early settlers involved 
> >subjects who are of anthropological interest does not make the observers 
> >themselves anthropologists.  Anthropologists are people who are trained 
> >in the methods and theory of anthropology.  The discipline is defined by 
> >more than the scope of its subject matter.

> Who is Colin?  And before you get into the habit please stop calling something
> I am not, nor am I Sr. Comecola, twinkletoes or whatever other name your
> fetishes make up.

If you believe so sincerely that one should never call another except by 
the name they themselves prefer, then why do you not extend the same 
courtesy to others, Mr. McKinstry?  "Sr. Comecola" is in fact the name 
you choose to go by to mask your true identity, but merely translated 
into another language.

> Yet you admit that anthropologists use the recordings of people like Capt. John
> Smith for their own work (I somehow doubt they'd use Capt. John Smith because
> is doesn't fulfil PC terminology.)  While that doesn't make him an official
> anthropologist (no magic piece of paper), he did do what (field) anthropologists
> like doing, recording.

But anthropologists do more than merely record blindly that which they 
see.  There is thing called "methodology", you know.  Had Smith been an 
anthropologist he would have thought about the particular circumstances 
in which the activities he was observing took place.  He was no more an 
anthropologist than I would be an astronomer if I decided to go outside 
and gaze and the stars and write about them.

[..]

> >> >What the Europeans did is absolutely relevant to understanding the 
> >> >context and, hence, the motives and reliability, of first hand accounts 
> >> >such as the one you cited.

> >> No, it is not.  Whether Europeans who butchering or being butchered by NA
> >> Indians is not relevant, except to apologists who justify their pet theories
> >> with the evil white man propaganda.

> >Excuse me, but are you not one of the people here who is constantly 
> >harping about how "politically correct" people are blinded by their 
> >political ideologies, and how this colours their perceptions?  Are you 
> >about to now try to argue that this only began in the last decade or two 
> >when the phrase "politically correct" became popular?  Dehumanising 
> >rhetoric is always a part of conquest and colonisation, Sr. Comecola.

> I would argue that the strength of this one with nature BS started with the
> 1960s, the ultimate beginnings of PCness or rather universal stupidity.  On
> saying this, however, the one with nature BS started before the 1960s, as the
> Website _American Renaissance_ mentions Mark Twain and his arguments against 
> the beginnings of the noble savage myth of the NA Indian. 

And I would argue that every era has its "politically correct" ideology, 
even though it only came to be called that very recently.  The prevailing 
ideology in early colonial times is rather like your present one, Colin.  
I guess you're just a good colonialist at heart.

> Would it surprise you to learn that when the European rediscovered America that
> they were already dehumanised, but were later humanised by a papal bull?  That
> your theory is wrong?

Are you saying that Smith was Catholic?  Are you aware that many of the 
earliest settlers in North America were not?  A papal decree would not 
have affected their beliefs.  The need for land, however, did.


[...]

> >Colin.

> While I know that people like yourself have a fetish at connecting certain 
> posters together, I have not really witnessed a "Colin" on apw-p.  What are you
> trying to say?  That you're loopy?

He disappeared not long before you made your appearance, no?  It's odd, 
isn't it, that you claim to have been posting in the white-power 
newsgroups for some time, and yet your userid only appeared in March or 
so of 1996.

> >> You still haven't explained Sr. Comecola.

> >No, I haven't, have I.  Guess you'll have to figure out what language it 
> >is and look it up in a dictionary.

> Which Romance language is it?

The same one that word "comprehende" belongs to???

> >> >> >I would recommend that you begin with the multivolume series "The Handbook
> >> >> >of North American Indians", published by the Smithsonian Institution.

> >> >> And when was that published? -- we are talking about early ... literature you
> >> >> know.


[...]
> >> >already been radically transformed and marginalised?  Many of the 
> >> >articles in the Handbook volumes are based on ethnohistorical research.  
> >> >The dates for the volumes' publication varies, but most came out in the 
> >> >1980s.

> >> Captain John Smith wrote in the 1600s, not in the 1980s.

> >Ethnohistory is the interpretation of documents like Smith's by 
> >anthropologists, using anthropological and historical methods, and 
> >anthropological concepts.  Just like history is the interpretation of 
> >documents like census records by historians using historical methods and 
> >concepts.  Smith was no more an anthropologist (or ethnohistorian) than 
> >someone taking a census in 1580 in Mexico was a historian.

> Which means todays PC anthropologists and/or apologist can ignore him, because
> he doesn't fit their beautifully designed propaganda artworks.

Do you know for a fact that ethnohistorians have ignored his writing?  Or 
are you merely making this up?  I am not familiar with the ethnohistory 
of the eastern US, but I know that ethnohistorians of southern Ontario 
and of Mexico use every available scrap of written documentation.  In 
southern Ontario, the journals of Champlain and Cartier, the Jesuit 
relations, and all very early documents are central to ethnohistorical 
studies of the early contact/conquest period.  So before you dismiss work 
with which you apparently have zero familiarity, Colin, you ought to lift 
a finger to be sure you aren't making yet more a fool of yourself.


From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Sun Jan  5 11:42:45 PST 1997
Article: 91163 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europeans are whites, Americans are almost whites
Date: Sun, 5 Jan 1997 10:42:52 -0500
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On Sat, 4 Jan 1997, David N. Hudson wrote:

[...]

> As for physiological factors, it seems that racial classifications
> primarily rely on them.  Why is it that we cannot select them?  Indeed
> are not ordinary classifications that are used everyday for affirmative
> action merely based on a set of physiological factors?  Are not these
> factors readily apparent to the eye and require no intervention from a
> biologist to affirm that those factors are indeed present?

You appear to be confusing *physiological* characteristics with *physical* 
ones.  These are not the same thing at all.  Physiology is *not* "readily 
apparent to the eye".

> As for genetics, perhaps the understanding of genetics is still a bit
> too primative.  Surely you would not argue that all genetic discoveries
> have already been made and that your assertion represents scientific
> certainty? 

But what *scientific grounds* exist at present for rejecting what we *do* 
know of human genetic variation?

> this datum?  What is the rationale or value for relying on blood group
> as a discriminator, especially if it contradicts commonly accepted
> notions of race?  Indeed, should racial classification even rely on
> something this arcane?



It seems that you wish scientific affirmation of what are nothing more 
than "folk categories", what you call "commonly accepted notions of 
race".  And that you wish scientists to use whatever characteristics are 
necessary to replicate those categories, however meaningless, 
scientifically, the resulting categories.  Do you realise how silly this 
is?

[...]


From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sun Jan  5 23:01:06 PST 1997
Article: 91280 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An honest interview
Date: 6 Jan 1997 02:40:58 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote:

[...]

>That's the problem with those East Coastie Canucks, they give us true
>Canadians (who inhabit the best coast) a bad name :>) 
>
>[And for all the gloating easterners:  I have no pictures of the
>recently alleged BC blizzard.  So it didn't happen]

Normally I wouldn't call a fellow fatbroad on a whopper, but Hilary, 
*really*.  If there was no snowstorm out there, what on earth was
the endless whining on email all about?  I've never heard such a
bunch of whining over normal winter weather in my life!!


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Jan  6 02:23:02 PST 1997
Article: 54868 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!visi.com!newsfeeder.toronto.ican.net!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,talk.environment
Subject: Re: Nova: Indians Exterminated Mammoth, Horse, etc.
Date: 6 Jan 1997 02:34:50 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article , Laura says...
>>
>>On 3 Jan 1997 Ourobouros@.MISSING-HOST-NAME. wrote:


[...]


>>> Who is Colin?  And before you get into the habit please stop calling something
>>> I am not, nor am I Sr. Comecola, twinkletoes or whatever other name your
>>> fetishes make up.
 
>>If you believe so sincerely that one should never call another except by 
>>the name they themselves prefer, then why do you not extend the same 
>>courtesy to others, Mr. McKinstry?  "Sr. Comecola" is in fact the name 
>>you choose to go by to mask your true identity, but merely translated 
>>into another language.
 
>Comecola is Ourobouros?

Or a carbonated beverage, perhaps.
 
>Have you started another name: re Mr. McKinstry?

>If you care to review the times I have called you *Finstein* you will also
>note it was reasonably brief, that I decided calling you that was pointless.

Is this too much for you?

>>> Yet you admit that anthropologists use the recordings of people like Capt. John
>>> Smith for their own work (I somehow doubt they'd use Capt. John Smith because
>>> is doesn't fulfil PC terminology.)  While that doesn't make him an official
>>> anthropologist (no magic piece of paper), he did do what (field) anthropologists
>>> like doing, recording.

>>But anthropologists do more than merely record blindly that which they 
>>see.  There is thing called "methodology", you know.  Had Smith been an 
>>anthropologist he would have thought about the particular circumstances 
>>in which the activities he was observing took place.  He was no more an 
>>anthropologist than I would be an astronomer if I decided to go outside 
>>and gaze and the stars and write about them.

>His records are sources for later anthropologists, hence his works can be
>classified as an anthropological source.  Yes or no?

Classifying his works as an anthropological source is not the same as
classifying him as an anthropologist.

[...]

>>And I would argue that every era has its "politically correct" ideology, 
>>even though it only came to be called that very recently.  The prevailing 
>>ideology in early colonial times is rather like your present one, Colin.  
>>I guess you're just a good colonialist at heart.

>What has this got to do with the price of fish?

It suggests that the price of fish is not independent of surrounding
circumstances.  Just like attitudes towards those being displaced and having
their land taken away from them cannot be independent of those historical
facts and colonial acts, Colin.

[...]

>>> While I know that people like yourself have a fetish at connecting certain 
>>> posters together, I have not really witnessed a "Colin" on apw-p.  What are you
>>> trying to say?  That you're loopy?

>>He disappeared not long before you made your appearance, no?  It's odd, 
>>isn't it, that you claim to have been posting in the white-power 
>>newsgroups for some time, and yet your userid only appeared in March or 
>>so of 1996.

Ah, you're correct, Nizkor only started archiving your current userid in March
of 1996.  I was reading some posts by a fellow named Colin McKinstry, also
a New Zealander, also with a penchant for ancient Egypt and, astonishingly,
an apparent B.Sc. with a grasp of written English as appallingly poor as yours.
He stopped posting right around the time you began.  Too bad, you've missed
out on a kindred spirit, or do you know Colin McKinstry?  He may even be at
your University.  You appear to have an awful lot in common.

>That is incorrect, I have been posting here since late November or early
>December 1995.  When did this "Colin" disappear? If memory serves me 
>correct, there was no common user called "Colin" anywhere during the time
>of late 1995 to March 1996.  According to your theories I should have met
>this person.  I also checked Dejanews for a "Colin" and I discovered two
>results of relative interest, a Colin Cooper who renounced his membership
>to the National Alliance, via Milton Kliem, and a posting to a Colin Jordan
>website.  Which am I supposed to be?  Colin Cooper or Colin Jordan?

>>> >> You still haven't explained Sr. Comecola.

>>> >No, I haven't, have I.  Guess you'll have to figure out what language it 
>>> >is and look it up in a dictionary.

>>> Which Romance language is it?

>>The same one that word "comprehende" belongs to???

>Why the question marks?

Well, I don't know what language "comprehende" belongs to.  It isn't French or
Spanish, I'm pretty sure it isn't Italian.  Is it Portuguese?  You use it,
after all.

Strange, that.  Colin McKinstry used to use "comprehend" in much the same way.

[...]

>>> >Ethnohistory is the interpretation of documents like Smith's by 
>>> >anthropologists, using anthropological and historical methods, and 
>>> >anthropological concepts.  Just like history is the interpretation of 
>>> >documents like census records by historians using historical methods and 
>>> >concepts.  Smith was no more an anthropologist (or ethnohistorian) than 
>>> >someone taking a census in 1580 in Mexico was a historian.

>>> Which means todays PC anthropologists and/or apologist can ignore him, because
>>> he doesn't fit their beautifully designed propaganda artworks.

>>Do you know for a fact that ethnohistorians have ignored his writing?  Or 
>>are you merely making this up?  I am not familiar with the ethnohistory 
>>of the eastern US, but I know that ethnohistorians of southern Ontario 
>>and of Mexico use every available scrap of written documentation.  In 
>>southern Ontario, the journals of Champlain and Cartier, the Jesuit 
>>relations, and all very early documents are central to ethnohistorical 
>>studies of the early contact/conquest period.  So before you dismiss work 
>>with which you apparently have zero familiarity, Colin, you ought to lift 
>>a finger to be sure you aren't making yet more a fool of yourself.

>You will notice that I used a subjunctive in my writings (can).  Please be
>more careful.

That was not clear from the context, Colin.  If they have not, what is the
big deal?

[...]


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Thu Jan  9 09:22:46 PST 1997
Article: 55219 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: A Female Giwer, UGLY? (You decide!)
Date: Wed, 8 Jan 1997 21:00:09 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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On 7 Jan 1997, Ken McVay OBC wrote:

> It was written:
> 
>    "Jenn, your intellect and wit would be remarkable even if you looked 
>     like a female Matt Giwer. "
>     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> See http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad/ - as the sign says, once
> you've seen Fatbroad, there's no turning back.

Et tu, Ken?  Are you now telling me that my stunning intellect and
delightful sense of humour are not enough, because I'm not a "classic
beauty"?  Maybe I should think about a face job...


From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Fri Jan 10 09:14:08 PST 1997
Article: 55291 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: A Female Giwer, UGLY? (You decide!)
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 1997 21:30:43 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 46
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On 9 Jan 1997, Ken McVay OBC wrote:

> One of the Fatbroads wrote:

> >On 7 Jan 1997, Ken McVay OBC wrote:

> >> It was written:

> >>    "Jenn, your intellect and wit would be remarkable even if you looked 
> >>     like a female Matt Giwer. "

> >> See http://www1.us.nizkor.org/~fatbroad/ - as the sign says, once
> >> you've seen Fatbroad, there's no turning back.

> >Et tu, Ken?  Are you now telling me that my stunning intellect and
> >delightful sense of humour are not enough, because I'm not a "classic
> >beauty"?  Maybe I should think about a face job...

> "Once you've seen Fatbroad, there's no turning back." That's what
> I said, Laura my dear. You are indeed a classic beauty, although,
> I must say, your T-shirt leaves something to be desired... who is
> your designer, darling?

Hmmm, I rather liked that t-shirt.  Sure fit well, although it was a 
tad embarrassing asking for a XXXL.  I'm sworn to secrecy on the 
designer.  We're discussing a "Mommy Professor" model for next year's
event.

> I simply wished to challenge the belief that a "female Matt Giwer"
> would by rights be "ugly" by pointing out that Fatbroad, who bears
> a striking resemblence to a certain potty-mouthed twit from Tampa,
> is, as noted, lovely beyond measure.

> See?

Ah, now I get it.  I'm glad to realise that you weren't suggesting
that El Tampeno's qualities were only skin deep.

> ["The Pesto pizza, I think, accompanied by a light red, following the
> calimari salad, and crowned with a chocolate cheesecake. Yes, that
> should do the trick for the first round."]

Was the pesto pizza the one you had last time?  It sure was excellent.
I would substitute something else for the calamari, and finish with
an espresso.  And if the New Year's tiramisu doesn't fade away soon,
I might have to forego the cheesecake...  Couldn't find a XXXXL...


From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Jan 11 08:48:53 PST 1997
Article: 55309 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: White folks too dumb for freedom of religion. Was Re: A tweleveth question for the proponents of a white nation
Date: 10 Jan 1997 18:41:10 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <5b62g6$rg7@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

*My* 
>politics involve making society more mature, ie., each member is 
>responsible for his own actions
[...]

But of course in your politics, membership in society itself is not
based on each individual's actions, but instead on the colour of their
skin.  More mature, indeed.

[..]

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Jan 11 13:26:43 PST 1997
Article: 55452 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!169.207.30.10!newspump.sol.net!howland.erols.net!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: A tweleveth question for the proponents of a white nation
Date: 8 Jan 1997 20:24:40 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <852626912snz@augur.demon.co.uk>, Caesar@augur.demon.co.uk says...

[...]

>>I mean: Would there be an official religion?

>I suppose that would depend on who came to power.  If it were National 
>Socialism as envisaged by Adolf Hitler then one could expect a pan-German-Pagan
>religion which may be adopted by the state.  If Christian Identity then one
>could imagine Christian Identity as being the official religion.  It basically
>comes down to who has the most forceful personality or not to answer your
>question -- whether there would be an official religion or not.  

Either you don't understand the question, or your answer is "yes".  Is this
your idea of great freedom, then, Colin?  A state in which one does not have
religious freedom, but must adhere to the religious doctrine of those in power?

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Sun Jan 12 06:34:20 PST 1997
Article: 92444 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!marlin.ucsf.edu!overload.lbl.gov!agate!newsgate.cuhk.edu.hk!hammer.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA!finsten
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: soc.culture.europe,alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,soc.history
Subject: Re: Europeans are whites, Accredited Sociologists are Redundant
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 19:03:41 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 37
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On 11 Jan 1997, Richard A. Hernandez wrote:

> smaceach@polar.bowdoin.edu wrote in article
> <852905879.6002@dejanews.com>...
> > varange@crl.com wrote:

> > > You have learned, of course, that Accredited Social Scientists
> > > are taught through an ideological straightjacket.

> > The twit didn't know that horses and zebras belong to different species.

> Oh boy, we have another Philip Kasiecki here. Such bravado from behind
> a modem! Perhaps you should stick to digging up trinkets ( a much more
> suitable undertaking to one of your level of manhood.)
                                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hmmm, that sounds rather like an ad hominem attack.  Gee, did Scott
attack your manhood, Richard?

> I used horses and zebras as an example.

And Scott (and I) pointed out to you that your example is completely 
inappropriate.  

 However, I stand behind my
> assertion that there is as much difference between Aryans and Negroes,
> ( not superiority, just difference ) as there is between horses and zebras.

You are absolutely wrong, Richard.  Why not try an example that better
suits the scientific *facts*, like the differences between black poodles
and white poodles?

> If you can't see that with your own eyes you stinking little weasel, then
> your " accreditation " isn't worth a SH*T.

Alas, Richard, you have demonstrated not only that you don't know beans
about taxonomy and genetics, but tambien que no eres caballero.


From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Jan 13 07:34:46 PST 1997
Article: 55637 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.axionet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!199.60.229.3!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: A tweleveth question for the proponents of a white nation
Date: 10 Jan 1997 16:07:41 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <5b36l0$es@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

[...]

>Religion and law making are so intertwined it isn't funny.  Btw, just 
>because there is an official religion doesn't necessarily mean a lack of
>religious freedom.  Both Canada and the U.S.A are officially (protestant)
>Christian nations, whether you like it or lump it, and yet there is

Canada has no official religion, if by this phrase you mean a particular
religion that is associated with the state.  My impression is that you
are defining the phrase in some other way, however.
 
[...]

>It also must be remembered that while Christianity was the official religion
>of Europe, Jewry was permissible, even though (at times) all the classes
>(lower, middle, and upper) despised Jews.

Jewry is not a religion.  In Europe, at various times, many Christian
religious sects were persecuted for their beliefs.  Many Catholics came
to North America to escape religious persecution.

[...]


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Jan 13 20:44:34 PST 1997
Article: 55695 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: A tweleveth question for the proponents of a white nation
Date: 13 Jan 1997 16:00:08 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <5bb5hi$cm4@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

>>Ourobouros wrote:
>>>In article <5b5g6q$q9t@news1.ucsd.edu>, fledgist@weber.ucsd.edu says...

[...]


>>>Curious, how would you describe the primary religion of the U.S. or Canada,
>>>or are you simply stirring shit?

>>>>You really don't understand what 'official' means.

>>>Uh huh.

>>You have just demonstrated the point Fragano and I were making: that you
>>don't understand what an "official (state) religion" is.  Thank you.

>Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the US
>are Western nations.

In the first sentence in this post (your words), you ask "how would you describe
the *primary* religion of the U.S. or Canada..." (emphasis added).  Are you
using the word "primary" to mean "most prevalent"?  If so, would you please
explain how this equates with "official" which, in my book, has a quite
different meaning?  If you are not using the word "primary" to mean "most
prevalent" in this context, would you kindly explain what it is intended
to mean here?  Then you might go on to explain what describing Australia,
Canada, New Zealand and the U.S. as western nations has to do with your
assertion in an earlier post that Canada and the U.S. are officially 
protestant Christian countries.

[...]

>>You really do sound astonishingly like Colin McKinstry.  You should look
>>him up, the two of you can fight over which of you will be supreme
>>dictator of the universe when you get your white dreamland.

>All right.  Why do I sound astonishingly like Colin McKinstry?

I don't know.  Since you have the most patronising tone and tortured
prose of any poster I've read on this newsgroup, I find the coincidences
rather astonishing.

>Have I voiced opinion that I want to be the supreme dictator of the 
>universe, has this Colin McKinstry voiced such an opinion?

No, merely my inference from your tone.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Jan 13 22:34:39 PST 1997
Article: 92755 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!dciteleport.com!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!torn!kone!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ATTN: Mr. K. McVay
Date: 13 Jan 1997 16:09:29 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

>If Canada does indeed have this extradition treaty then perhaps I can
>continue to press the NZ Privacy Act which makes it illegal for McVay to 
>make public anything about me without my permission (including anything I 
>write.)  

Nizkor does not make anything public about you which you have not first
made public yourself, by posting it to usenet, Twinkletoes.


[...]


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Tue Jan 14 02:36:06 PST 1997
Article: 92772 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.skinheads,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Marxist Comradery at Nizkor?
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 17:44:07 -0500
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On 13 Jan 1997, william c anderson wrote:

> Andy Walton (atticus@mindspring.com) wrote:
> : In article <32D7E0AE.7B89@conterra.com>, bwhit@conterra.com wrote:

> :   :You demand
> :   :massive third world immigration into EVERY white majority country, and
> :   :ONLY into white majority countries.

> : Has one person made that argument, or are you again arguing with some
> : Platonic shadow on the wall,  "the PC clone" that exists only in your head?

> Bingo.   Nobody has ever made the argument Bob posits--but he knows we're
> all thinking it.  Mommy Professor spilled the beans over whiskey sours 
> one night.

It was margaritas, Bill, and darned good ones, too, as I recall.

"If I can't dance....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
     Emma Goldman


From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Tue Jan 14 03:02:45 PST 1997
Article: 55726 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.InterGate.BC.CA!n1van.istar!van-bc!out2.nntp.cais.net!in1.nntp.cais.net!tezcat!feed1.news.erols.com!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA!finsten
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.immigration
Subject: Re: More Facts Proving the Non-Existence of a
Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 18:47:53 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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On Sun, 12 Jan 1997, rbdwsn wrote:

> smaceach@polar.bowdoin.edu wrote:

> Dear Smerch,

> Tired of mouthing your inanities on MAM? Want to get slapped down on API 
> too? You may be a second rate archaeologist, but you sure are a first 
> class massochist. Don't worry. We'll oblige.

> Regards,
> Bond

Gee, Rob, coming over to apw-p since you've been banned from mam?  As I 
recall, Scott ran circles around the whole lousy bunch of you National
Appliance losers.  It'll be fun to watch him do it again.



From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Tue Jan 14 10:11:28 PST 1997
Article: 92828 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: I'll ask again: Why is Holocaust denial a "bad thing"? (Was: Clack, clack, clack, clack, clack)
Date: 12 Jan 1997 17:35:12 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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"Sabatini" is Spanish?  May I ask what part of Spain?


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Jan 15 13:20:22 PST 1997
Article: 55870 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: An eleventh question for proponents of a white nation
Date: 14 Jan 1997 14:15:09 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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"Richard A. Hernandez"  wrote:
>Allan Matthews wrote:

[...]

>> Can't pass up an opportunity to say something negative about those rotten
>> Joos, can you?

>Why not, they keep saying negative things about us. What amazes me is that
          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>when one of us Nationalists throws back a mere pebble, after the tons of
>boulders that are thrown at us every day by the chosen few, people like you
>ignore the boulders but are outraged by the pebble. Oh well, who wants your
>sympathy anyway!

If by "us" you mean "white nationalists", I hardly find it surprising that
members of any of the groups who would be unceremoniously booted out of their
homes take umbrage with your politics.  Many of them, or their familiies, have
been there before, after all.  Your "pebble" would include forced deportation,
after all, Richard, for the "crime" of being Jewish.  You poor thing, having
people get all upset at you for suggesting such a thing...  
 
[...]


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Wed Jan 15 13:55:57 PST 1997
Article: 55874 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: A tweleveth question for the proponents of a white nation
Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 07:58:54 -0500
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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On 13 Jan 1997 Ourobouros@.MISSING-HOST-NAME. wrote:

> In article <5bdm68$hbl@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

[...]

> >>Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and the US
> >>are Western nations.

> >In the first sentence in this post (your words), you ask "how would you describe
> >the *primary* religion of the U.S. or Canada..." (emphasis added).  Are you
> >using the word "primary" to mean "most prevalent"?  If so, would you please
> >explain how this equates with "official" which, in my book, has a quite
> >different meaning?  If you are not using the word "primary" to mean "most
> >prevalent" in this context, would you kindly explain what it is intended
> >to mean here?  Then you might go on to explain what describing Australia,
> >Canada, New Zealand and the U.S. as western nations has to do with your
> >assertion in an earlier post that Canada and the U.S. are officially 
> >protestant Christian countries.

> Aren't you going to guess why they're called Western nations first?

Are you going to explain what you actually meant by the assertion, Colin,
or are you going to attempt to evade your error once again, dodging with
far less grace than the Twinkletoes you put in me in mind of?  I'm not
interested in playing guessing games with someone whose chronological, if
not mental, age has two digits.  You do qualify, don't you, Colin?  Your
chronological age *is* greater than or equal to 10, is it not?

[...]

> >>All right.  Why do I sound astonishingly like Colin McKinstry?

> >I don't know.  Since you have the most patronising tone and tortured
> >prose of any poster I've read on this newsgroup, I find the coincidences
> >rather astonishing.

> Let me see; you don't know, but you do know?

There is "knowing" absolutely with certainty, and then there is sensing
that something may be true, based on a convergence of weak circumstantial
evidence.  I am not absolutely certain that you and Colin McKinstry are 
one in the same, but the coincidences strike me as highly suggestive.

> I can tell you are applying logic to the scenerio.

Isn't that nice.

> >>Have I voiced opinion that I want to be the supreme dictator of the 
> >>universe, has this Colin McKinstry voiced such an opinion?

> >No, merely my inference from your tone.

> What does a meglomaniac sound like then?

Read Mein Kampf, for the words of one.

> Has this other person voiced his opinion as wanting to be the supreme 
> dictator of the universe, or is this another assumption based on your
> experiences with meglomaniacs, and can therefore say "I don't know, but I
> do know what a meglomaniac's tone is like"?

Oh dear, I see you're not a fan of the comic strip "Calvin and Hobbes" 
(perhaps you never got it in New Zealand).  The phrase "supreme dictator 
of the universe" comes from that strip, and arose from arguments between 
Calvin (and extremely bratty, spoiled 6 year old) and Hobbes (his toy 
tiger) over which of them would rule the roost, when they were playing in 
their clubhouse.  I'm sorry the joke went over your head.


From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Jan 15 17:33:05 PST 1997
Article: 93051 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!nic.mtl.hookup.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!clicnet!news.clic.net!news.bconnex.net!feed1.news.erols.com!howland.erols.net!torn!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.discrimination,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Europeans are whites, Americans are almost whites
Date: 12 Jan 1997 18:07:52 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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"Richard A. Hernandez"  wrote:

>Laura Finsten  wrote in article
><5b5lir$gro@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>...
>> "Richard A. Hernandez"  wrote:

>> >Laura Finsten  wrote in article
>> ><5b11i8$j15@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>...
>> >> "Richard A. Hernandez"  wrote:
 
>> >> >Laura Finsten  wrote in article
>> >> >...
>> >> >> On 3 Jan 1997, Richard A. Hernandez wrote:
  
>> >> Nope, a thoroughbred horse and a zebra belong to different *species*,
>> >> not subspecies.  The criterion for distinguishing species is pretty
>> >> straightforward.  All modern humans, Hottentots, Scandinavians, 
>> >> Castillians and folks like me, belong to a species.
>> 
>> >Let's just cut to the chase shall we? I am never going to accept your
>> >position because my eyes see, what they see. And you are never going to 
>> >accept my position because you are steadfast in your beliefs. So what's 
>> >the use? However, I am interested in knowing two things re: your
>> >position.
 
>> Do let's do that, Richard.  If the constructs of biology are irrelevant
>> to the issue of a "white homeland", then why do you and other separatists
>> and supremacists continually bring them up?

>Not the constructs of Biology, but the constructs of your beliefs that are
>irrelevant to Racial Nationalists.

My "beliefs" about how species are defined?

>> >First: How do you explain, or what would you call the obvious
>> >differences between human groups? ( you obviously don't like 
>> >the term race.) 

>> What *are* the obvious differences you are referring to?  Skin colour
>> appears to be paramount among "white separatists".  How do I explain 
>> differences in human skin colour?  The same way I would explain the 
>> differences in the colours of poodles or thoroughbred horses.  Whether 
>> a poodle is black or white, it is still a poodle.  Thoroughbred horses 
>> come in many hues, yet they are still thoroughbred horses.  Variation 
>> within species, and within populations, is not
>> only normal but a good thing, from an evolutionary perspective.

>Beyond the melanin content of the skin there's:

>Brain size and weight indexed to height.

Would you please outline the weight and size ranges that are exclusive to each 
of the "racial groups" you identify.

>The Corneas.

More detail, please.

>Skeletal structure.

Please explain the specific characteristics of skeletal structure that are
distinctive among the various "racial groups" you identify, and point me to
some convincing evidence that none of these is environmentally determined.

>Size and density of reprodutive organs.

All, you've been reading Rushton.

>Skull dimentions.

Which dimensions?  What are the ranges that distinguish the different "racial
groups"?

>Fat to muscle ratio.

>Hair.

>Just to name a few off the top of my head. Ask any pathologist,
>he could fill you in on the particulars.

Well, I've asked a whole bunch of human biologists, and what they tell me
is that there is no constellation of *unique* morphological characteristics
that distinguish all members of one so-called "race" from the others.
And since races are supposedly equivalent to subspecies, this is really
problematic.
 
>> >Second: In your opinion, would the extinction of any one of those
>> >distinct human groups be a good thing, or a bad thing?
 
>> Are you talking about extinction in the same way that evolutionary
>> biologists use the term?  If so, it doesn't apply to groups of a species 
>> defined on the basis of skin colour.

>Even if the only difference was skin color like you claim, that very fact,
>that a group of humans exist of a particular skin color is sufficient. 
>Because they exist, then everything should be done in order to gurantee 
>that existance. So in answer to my own question; It would be a terrible thing.
>Extinction, regardless of the species, is never a good thing.

But you are, of course, not talking about "extinction", but rather about
loss of variation.  Precisely the kind of thing that the eugenics programme
you are outlining in another thread is intended to accomplish - the elimination
of certain variations, even if it means throwing apparently "white" folks' 
kids out or forcibly sterilising them.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman





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