The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/f/finsten.laura/1996/finsten.0996


From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep  4 08:51:36 PDT 1996
Article: 41892 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: MY NEW POLITICAL BOOK IS ONLINE!  TALK BACK TO THE AUTHOR!
Date: 3 Sep 1996 21:06:30 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <50i6km$c25@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <322B7C1B.4F5D@conterra.com>
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Bob Whitaker  wrote:

>I have written two political books, both made *The Review of Reviews*
>and on eof them,
>*The New Right Papers* is, for sure, in your local library.
>   But my new one is me, unplugged.  No editor, and you can talk
>straight back to the writer. 
>In short, it's on the Internet.
>   I have been playing with titles.  The one I like, but could never use
>in print, is *Diversity Sucks, And Other Heresies*.
>    I wrote it for fun, and I hope you'll read at least the first
>chapter and tell me what you think.
>   It is at http://hawaii.conterra.com/bwhit/


Gee Mr. Whitaker, what a transformation over the past couple of 
months!!  Not only have you decided to stop censoring all the people
whose posts you were responding to, but you've also decided to
come out of the academic closet, so to speak!!  It can't be more
than three months ago that you called me all sorts of nasty names
and feigned the role of the martyr when I dared to put those
four words (3rd line down, first 4 words on the left) in a post.
I had broken a major confidence, in your opinion, by writing the
title of a book which, by your own admission here, "...is, for sure, 
in your local library".  What a hypocrite.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep  4 16:49:57 PDT 1996
Article: 62373 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SHOW YOUR SUPPORT - sign on here
Date: 4 Sep 1996 15:24:04 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 25
Message-ID: <50k6uk$h4j@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <322c56d3.6968993@news.pacificnet.net> <3SEP199620370455@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> <322d7d1a.2108680@news.pacificnet.net>
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote:

>>    So, ah, Tommy...  does your sister like to go 
>>    fishing?  



>	No, I don't know what you mean. Do you have the nerve to come
>right out and explain what you mean? Don't beat around the bush. Just
>come out and say it, "Like a 'man'".


I can't take it anymore.  I'm going to let the cat out of the bag.
You asked what trolling is, Mr. Moran.  Mr. Mittleman is attempting
to explain trolling to you by doing it.  And clearly his effort,
transparent as it is to every reader but you, it seems, has been
effective as a troll, but ineffective as an illustration to you
of a troll.  Do you understand now?


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep  4 19:02:45 PDT 1996
Article: 41960 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.censorship,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.african-american
Subject: Re: Nazi clones say - "Agree with us or you're a Race Traitor"
Date: 4 Sep 1996 15:37:31 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <50k7nr$h4j@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <504onb$fpb@orion.cybercom.net> <507o4f$oph@molokini.conterra.com> <50d9sh$gag@orion.cybercom.net> <50i142$b90@jerry.loop.net>
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goat@anus.com (CHRIST SODOMIZER) wrote:

[...?  attributions in original unclear]

>I think you "anti-racist" people are the fascists.  I sure don't see
>the White Power Rangers trying to censor anyone's speech, or
>cancelling any posts!  Why is this?  What's so scary about words that
>we must censor?

And I sure don't see the "anti-racists" trying to censor anyone's
speech or cancelling any posts, either!!!!  While I can only speak
for myself, in my opinion freedom of speech is essential to
discrediting the various "white power" ideologies.  You undermine
and destroy yourselves with every racist, anti-semitic, ranting,
repetitive, and irrational post.  I just like to help you dig the
hole deeper and deeper.  

>Why don't we, the collective citizens of the net interested in
>progressive action, stop ratifying these peoples' fears/paranoias by
>censoring their posts and start building an archive of progressive
>information not tainted by the utter bias that the "anti-racist"
>forces here demonstrate, without the personal attacks and otherwise
>sniveling weakness?
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No, you would never stoop to "personal attacks", would you, Mr. Goat.




"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep  4 19:02:46 PDT 1996
Article: 41968 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Ken the Mc-a-voidly lie'n: Bully, Blowhard, Coward
Date: 4 Sep 1996 14:00:17 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <50k21h$9bh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <32248DB5.562@gryn.org> <5042vo$ff2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <507g0u$46i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <01bb96f2.92889fe0$81a11dcb@peasant> <50at7u$sde@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50iha0$s2g@lex.zippo.com>
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <50at7u$sde@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

>>"Ourobouros"  wrote:

>>>We could assume that you know a coward and a hypocrite when
>>>you see one -- since you are the best example of one.  Still, it
>>>does serve to illustrate another example of your hypocrisy; that 
>>>being a hypocrite.  When are you going to answer my questions 
>>>Mc-a-voidly?

>>>Pot, kettle, black.

>>This from someone who posts under an unknown user id.  Are you
>>a hacker or what, "Mr. Stone"?


>Your point is?

My point is that someone who posts anonymously, and who cannot be
reached by e-mail has no right to call anyone else a hypocrite.

>NZ doesn't uphold freedom of speech, even though it was one of the
>banners various members of my family fought (and died) under in 
>W.W.II.  

As did mine, "Mr. Stone".

>It wasn't the Nazis that destroyed freedom of speech 
>Finstein, it was people like you.
 ^^^^^^^^

Back to the tired, anti-semitic insults already, "Mr. Stone"?

Where have I ever advocated censorship, "Mr. Stone"?  I am a
strong proponent of free speech. 



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep  4 19:02:47 PDT 1996
Article: 41978 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: MY NEW POLITICAL BOOK IS ONLINE!  TALK BACK TO THE AUTHOR!
Date: 4 Sep 1996 14:05:23 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <50k2b3$9bh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Bob Whitaker  wrote:

[... massive censorship]

>     By the 1960's, liberalism had long since had a hammerlock on
>adademia, which reamins iunchallenged today.

Are you suggesting that academia was unaffected by McCarthyism,
Mr. Whitaker?  Or are you suggesting that McCarthyism was just
another variety of liberalism?


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep  4 19:02:48 PDT 1996
Article: 41979 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Whites Created Everything
Date: 4 Sep 1996 13:54:55 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <50k1nf$9bh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

>My point, seeing as you're incompetent, is that Ramesses II's hair is
>blond.  Being old would not have changed his hair colour.  

It seems that Mr. Stone has been watching too much television.  Not only
does he believe that blonds have more fun, it seems that he actually
believes that the reason one sees so many middle-aged and older women
with blond hair is because blond hair doesn't change colour with age!
Mr. Stone, this is absolute nonsense, and if you don't know it, you
should.


[...]

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep  4 19:02:49 PDT 1996
Article: 41983 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: "Aryan " mummies (was Re: Whites Created Everything
Date: 4 Sep 1996 13:47:06 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <50k18q$9bh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References:  <50f21k$f5@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50fs3h$g8g@lex.zippo.com> <50gm1e$h5j@gyda.ifi.uio.no> <50hg40INNfn2@topdog.cs.umbc.edu>
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akotov1@cs.umbc.edu (Alexandre Kotov) wrote:

>Ourobouros referred to the shape of the skull. That has nothing to do with
>facial features being distorted. Pharaoh's mummy exhibits a number of features
>typical of Mediterranid subrace, dolichocephaly being one of them.

Shocking, isn't it, to think that a mummy from a Mediterranean area (Egypt)
might have "Mediterranid" features.  Gee, I wonder how all these myriad
and potentially infinite "sub-races" arise...  What other populations
have been described as being characterised by dolichocephaly, Mr. Kotov?



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep  4 19:02:50 PDT 1996
Article: 41984 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: "Aryan " mummies (was Re: Whites Created Everything
Date: 4 Sep 1996 13:48:57 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <50k1c9$9bh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References:  <506b5j$mab@gyda.ifi.uio.no>  <509cmr$q7i@gyda.ifi.uio.no> <01bb9851.bcdb9260$8da11dcb@peasant> <50ekrh$mth@gyda.ifi.uio.no> <50gkgu$ff3@gyda.ifi.uio.no> <50i7ta$ode@lex.zippo.com>
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Ourobouros wrote:


>Please explain the Tocharian language.  BTW, Tocharian is considered very
>important (for linguists of Indo-European) in the reconstruction of IE. 

Perhaps you are the only one who seems surprised at the thought that
there was contact, in a variety of socially expressed forms, among the
various populations of the Old World, long before the era of modern
history.

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep  4 19:02:51 PDT 1996
Article: 41987 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: 4 Sep 1996 15:40:11 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <50k7sr$h4j@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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jeff_brown@pol.com (Jeffrey G. Brown) wrote:
>In article <322B25D7.4AD6@conterra.com>, bwhit@conterra.com wrote:

>>     Why should you exterminate anybody?  You are succeeding in your
>> dream of doing away with white people by third world immigration and
>> integration.

>And still Whitaker leaves unanswered the question:

>Just _how_ does "immigration and integration" "do away" with "White" people?


Yeah, I really really really want to hear the answer to this one.  I'm sure
it arises from more of Mr. Whitaker's "natural" sexual fantasies a la "The
Turner Diaries", but perhaps not.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Thu Sep  5 09:13:17 PDT 1996
Article: 28424 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.censorship,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.african-american
Subject: Re: Nazi clones say - "Agree with us or you're a Race Traitor"
Date: 4 Sep 1996 15:37:31 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <50k7nr$h4j@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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goat@anus.com (CHRIST SODOMIZER) wrote:

[...?  attributions in original unclear]

>I think you "anti-racist" people are the fascists.  I sure don't see
>the White Power Rangers trying to censor anyone's speech, or
>cancelling any posts!  Why is this?  What's so scary about words that
>we must censor?

And I sure don't see the "anti-racists" trying to censor anyone's
speech or cancelling any posts, either!!!!  While I can only speak
for myself, in my opinion freedom of speech is essential to
discrediting the various "white power" ideologies.  You undermine
and destroy yourselves with every racist, anti-semitic, ranting,
repetitive, and irrational post.  I just like to help you dig the
hole deeper and deeper.  

>Why don't we, the collective citizens of the net interested in
>progressive action, stop ratifying these peoples' fears/paranoias by
>censoring their posts and start building an archive of progressive
>information not tainted by the utter bias that the "anti-racist"
>forces here demonstrate, without the personal attacks and otherwise
>sniveling weakness?
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

No, you would never stoop to "personal attacks", would you, Mr. Goat.




"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Thu Sep  5 09:26:34 PDT 1996
Article: 41994 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Ken the Mc-a-voidly lie'n: Bully, Blowhard, Coward
Date: 4 Sep 1996 15:31:15 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 22
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References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <32248DB5.562@gryn.org> <5042vo$ff2@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>  <507g0u$46i@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <01bb96f2.92889fe0$81a11dcb@peasant> <50at7u$sde@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50iha0$s2g@lex.zippo.com>
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Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

>It wasn't the Nazis that destroyed freedom of speech 
>Finstein, it was people like you.

By the way "Mr. Stone", what in your books, exactly, constitutes
censorship?  The Nazis burned books by the tens of thousands,
removed artworks from display for no reason other than that they
disapproved of the religion and/or ethnic origin of the artist,
and established a government office whose role it was to "oversee"
all newsprint and radio publications (and this was established
and operational well before World War II began).  These acts, by
my definition, constitute censorship and so serve to destroy
freedom of speech.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Fri Sep  6 07:48:11 PDT 1996
Article: 42134 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Whites Created Everything
Date: 5 Sep 1996 18:39:43 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <50n6pf$cn1@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

>Please go to a retirement home to see old blondes.  Yes blondes can go 
>white, but they do not grey -- true blondes anyway.

Well, that's going to be news to my brother....


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Sep  7 10:20:23 PDT 1996
Article: 42197 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.skinheads,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Luminance, Chrominance, and Genocide
Date: 6 Sep 1996 20:46:35 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:42197 alt.skinheads:36763 alt.discrimination:53207

Kevin Alfred Strom  wrote:

>I have stated repeatedly that, in my opinion, self-description and a 
>pledge to support the survival and advancement of our race ought to be 
>all that is needed for residence in a future White state.


And for full rights of citizenship, Mr. Strom?  Would the pledge to 
"support the survival and advancement of [the "White"] race" entail
agreement to limit the number of children or submit to sterilisation
if one were not a member of the "White race", Mr. Strom?  I mean
really, what if my "self-description" went something like this:  I think
of myself as "white", but I am a member of a synogogue.  Or does
belonging to a synogogue "not support the advancement of the "White race"?  



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Sep  7 10:20:24 PDT 1996
Article: 42213 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: "Aryan " mummies (was Re: Whites Created Everything
Date: 6 Sep 1996 17:30:58 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <50pn4i$a8h@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <50k1c9$9bh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

>>Ourobouros wrote:

>>>Please explain the Tocharian language.  BTW, Tocharian is considered very
>>>important (for linguists of Indo-European) in the reconstruction of IE. 

>>Perhaps you are the only one who seems surprised at the thought that
>>there was contact, in a variety of socially expressed forms, among the
>>various populations of the Old World, long before the era of modern
>>history.

>It always amazes how you ever became a Professor when you make such 
>conclusions.

Well you do seem to be rather easily amazed.  I am not a linguist, and it
would be great to have Eugene Holman step in here, because I'm sure he
could enlighten us all on the subject of Tocharian.  I've never heard of 
it.  What, exactly does it mean, to say that "Tocharian is important in
the reconstruction of Indo-European", anyway, "Mr. Stone"?  Can you cite
a source for this?  Are you saying that there are apparently many
words shared by Tocharian and Indo-European, which are presumably borrowed?

Why would I conclude that there has been contact among Old World populations
since the dawn, nearly, of hominids?  Fossil evidence, archaeological
evidence, biological evidence and yes, linguistic evidence.  

>Explain how it became dominant among mongoloids, especially if you still
>want to hold dear that non-whites could build civilisations without Whites.

Please cite a source which describes Tocharian as Indo-European, and claims
that it was "dominant among mongoloids", "Mr. Stone".  Until you do so,
I see no reason to believe a word you say on this.  Not unless you understand
linguistics and language history a whole heckuva lot better than you do
human population genetics.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Sep  7 10:20:26 PDT 1996
Article: 42214 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Ken the Mc-a-voidly lie'n: Bully, Blowhard, Coward
Date: 6 Sep 1996 18:15:00 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <50k7c3$h4j@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

>>Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

>>>It wasn't the Nazis that destroyed freedom of speech 
>>>Finstein, it was people like you.

>>By the way "Mr. Stone", what in your books, exactly, constitutes
>>censorship?  The Nazis burned books by the tens of thousands,
>>removed artworks from display for no reason other than that they
>>disapproved of the religion and/or ethnic origin of the artist,
>>and established a government office whose role it was to "oversee"
>>all newsprint and radio publications (and this was established
>>and operational well before World War II began).  These acts, by
>>my definition, constitute censorship and so serve to destroy
>>freedom of speech.

>1. I am neither a Nazi nor a Neo-Nazi, despite what you might think 
>(your opinions hardly rate anyway).

Sure.  You deny the Holocaust (or am I wrong about that, "Mr. Stone"?),
you are extremely antisemitic, you are a white supremacist and a
tad on the totalitarian side.  Call it whatever you like.  Hey, 
wasn't it you who said of me "if it walks like a duck, quacks like
a duck..."?

>2. I was referring to New Zealand, not Germany.

I think that, had the Nazis won World War II and conquered New
Zealand, you would have far less freedom of speech than you have
right now, "Mr. Stone"?  Or do you disagree with that?

>3. The Jews were seen as an enemy and they took (what they thought
>were) necessary precautions.  

This is a rather sanitised description of the Nazi treatment of
Europe's Jewish population during World War II, isn't it, "Mr.
Stone"?  It is also rather misleading on the Nazi's depiction of
Jews, too, since a critical aspect was their belief that Jews
were not only inherently evil but subhuman. 

>Very much like the German settlement
>in Puhoi (Northland, NZ, and it is probably spelt wrong) was 
>"censored", for example.

Since I don't know any of the details of this case, I'm not sure
what sort of analogy you are implying.  Was this a settlement
of New Zealanders of German descent who were interred during
World War II?    

>Or one could see what you Yankees did to 
>Japanese students as another example.  

I am not a "Yankee", but Canada too interred Japanese Canadians
after Pearl Harbour.  It was a disgrace.  There is a difference,
though between the Nazi/Jewish case and this one (and perhaps the
New Zealand one you mention above), although I don't think it
excuses Canadians, Americans, or New Zealanders.  Germany and
the Axis countries were at war with America, Canada, New Zealand
and the other Allies.  Germany chose to make war on its own
citizens, if they were Jewish.  It isn't the same thing.

Nazi propaganda worked very hard to convince Germans that Jews
were their enemies.  All Jews.  Regardless of their records of
military service in the first world war, the citizenship, their
expressed loyalties, anything.
  
>I am not arguing whether it 
>is right or wrong but rather how the situation was viewed.  The 
>last thing a "war-time" country wants is its enemies working within 
>its borders to spread their poison, that is why traitors are executed
>in sane countries -- NZ with Geoffrey Palmer banned the death
>sentence for treason.  Another situation was that NZ mothers were not
>allowed to see photographs of their sons at war.  Why?  Because the
>mothers would not have allowed their sons to go.  "Freedom of Speech"
>is such a relative commodity, no?  

War is hell of free speech.  No doubt about it.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Sep  7 10:20:27 PDT 1996
Article: 42215 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Ken the Mc-a-voidly lie'n: Bully, Blowhard, Coward
Date: 6 Sep 1996 17:56:37 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <50k21h$9bh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

>>Ourobouros wrote:
>>>In article <50at7u$sde@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...


>Did you read the original post O' one who worships McVay's shadow?

Do you mean several months ago?  Our T1 line has been flaky, and
so my newserver is not its usual (pretty) reliable self.  Why
you think your petulant demands for answers to anyone should be
responded to with more than derision is beyond me.

You think I worship Ken McVay's shadow???  What a hoot.

>They must be handing out Professorships like candy where you live.

More ad hominem attack, I see, "Mr. Stone".  Doesn't take you
long to resort to that, does it.

>>>NZ doesn't uphold freedom of speech, even though it was one of the
>>>banners various members of my family fought (and died) under in 
>>>W.W.II.  

>>As did mine, "Mr. Stone".

>Your family fought under the banner for "freedom of speech"?

Both of my parents  were members of the Allied military
forces during World War II.  The Allies fought against tyranny
and for freedom, yes, "Mr. Stone".

>>>It wasn't the Nazis that destroyed freedom of speech 
>>>Finstein, it was people like you.
   ^^^^^^^^
 
>>Back to the tired, anti-semitic insults already, "Mr. Stone"?
 
>If you waddle like a duck, quack like a duck I might as well 
>call you a duck.

A nice demonstration of your antisemitism, "Mr. Stone".

>And, as you should know I refute the definition of anti-Semitic
>anyway, so it isn't even an "anti-semitic insult.'

And if you refute the definition of gravity, does it cease to
exist, "Mr. Stone"?  I think not.

>>Where have I ever advocated censorship, "Mr. Stone"?  I am a
>>strong proponent of free speech. 

>Your aim on apw-p and apnw is?

To correct your errors so impressionistic folks won't be fooled
by your lies and distortions.  I am merely exercising my right
to free speech here, "Mr. Stone".  Your right to free speech
does not entitle to you lie without being called on it.

[...]

>No, because you cannot even define race yourself.  Since you
>retracted your stance on race being purely social you have
>failed to update us on your new improved opinion.

Not again...  I've posted this more times than I can remember...

>To show that by gaining an education we can all be as 
>intelligent and informed as you?

More ad hominem attack.  Doesn't take you long to seek this
last refuge, does it, "Mr. Stone".

>If we have to be like you to get a Professorship in social
                                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>anthropology then forget it.  You are the epitome of pseudo-
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^
>erudition.  Supposedly an arts degree gives you lateral
>thinking, but we know that is a falsehood by your ever so-
>clever posts.  As for informed, what a joke.  You have to
>be one of the most un-informed people I have ever met.

Huh???.  The rest is ad hominem attack (yet again, you're 
really running low on material, "Mr. Stone").  
Want to talk human population genetics, Mr.Stone?  Is that 
"scientific" enough for you?

[...]

>"Scientists everywhere are in full agreement that the division
>of the human species into 'races' is purely arbitrary and
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>should not imply any hierarchy whatsoever.  False racist
>beliefs nevertheless continue to serve as an important cause
>of prejudice and discrimination."*

I've underscored this key phrase for you, since its significance
seems to have escaped you.

[...]

>* Everyone's United Nations; A Handbook on the United Nations
>its structure and activities, 9th Ed., New York, 1979, p.245.



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Sep  7 10:20:28 PDT 1996
Article: 42231 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: MY NEW POLITICAL BOOK IS ONLINE!  TALK BACK TO THE AUTHOR!
Date: 6 Sep 1996 17:39:29 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Just a couple of brief comments right now.  I hope to find time to read
the whole thing later.


Dr. Whitaker, your degree is in economics, is that correct?  
Economics is a social science, true?  
In your book, you say that all PhDs in social sciences are
morons.  Or words to that effect.  I can't recall your 
precise choice of derogatory term, but I think I've captured
your sentiment.  
So are you saying that you, yourself, are a moron, 
Dr. Whitaker?
Or is this just another example of your simplistic stereotyping
and your flagrant hypocrisy?



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Sep  7 10:20:28 PDT 1996
Article: 42232 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Lost "Aryan" cultures; proof of "White Supremacy"? Phah!
Date: 6 Sep 1996 17:42:35 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 25
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Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

>We have never claimed that White race is perfect.  We have liberals as an 
>obvious disproof of perfection.

Well gosh darn it all, I wish you folks would get together on this
and get it straight.  According to the now-absent Leslie Griswold
and Arthur LeBouthillier, I'm not "White" (although I am "white").

>It could be said that liberals have been our downfall every single time. Do
>you honestly believe this is the first age where liberals have been allowed
>to run rampant?    

Gosh no, "Mr. Stone".  There was the French Revolution, and the American
Revolution.
Do you honestly think that you're the first Hitler wannabe to snivel on
usenet?


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Sep  7 10:58:30 PDT 1996
Article: 36763 of alt.skinheads
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.skinheads,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Luminance, Chrominance, and Genocide
Date: 6 Sep 1996 20:46:35 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Kevin Alfred Strom  wrote:

>I have stated repeatedly that, in my opinion, self-description and a 
>pledge to support the survival and advancement of our race ought to be 
>all that is needed for residence in a future White state.


And for full rights of citizenship, Mr. Strom?  Would the pledge to 
"support the survival and advancement of [the "White"] race" entail
agreement to limit the number of children or submit to sterilisation
if one were not a member of the "White race", Mr. Strom?  I mean
really, what if my "self-description" went something like this:  I think
of myself as "white", but I am a member of a synogogue.  Or does
belonging to a synogogue "not support the advancement of the "White race"?  



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Sep  7 12:57:26 PDT 1996
Article: 28682 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Trouble for Nizkor - A Mutiny?
Date: 5 Sep 1996 18:36:41 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 16
Message-ID: <50n6jp$cn1@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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mckinney@usaor.net (Ian McKinney) wrote:

>We heard that Nizkor has its hands full with some of their people starting to 
>believe the Revisionist material they were assigned to debunk. Apparently 
>they can't and are beginning to have some doubts about the party-line 
>promoted by the Holocausters.


Where'd you hear that, Mr. McKinney?  What "revisionist" claims have
the rebellious Nizkorites found impossible to debunk?


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Sep  7 13:06:16 PDT 1996
Article: 42261 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: More Black Savagery
Date: 5 Sep 1996 18:43:08 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Conrad  wrote:
>Laura Finsten wrote:

>> White power rangers assume that
>> everyone who disagrees with them is stupid, blind, ignorant, and
>> has a cookie-cutter ideology.  It's part of the way they view the
>> world:  they have to divide everyone up into neat, well-defined (if
>> entirely inaccurate) categories.  They then deal with the categories
>> of their creation, rather than with the individual.  There are
>> "Whites", "non-Whites", and race traitors.  It is much easier, and
>> far less stressful and challenging, to simplify complex realities
>> this way.  If they didn't do this, they might not be racist, either.

>Fortunately for us rangers, the federal government has already
>field-tested the idea that people can be categorized. They have done
>this, of course, as a part of their quota policy. And it seems to have
>worked remarkably well. You hardly ever hear complaints that the feds
>have put someone in the wrong "group".


Who said people can't be categorised, Connie?  Sure they can.  Anything
can be put into categories.  The point, which you illustrate rather
well, is that any and all categories are human creations, and so are
based on social, political and other ideological preconceptions,
rather than on some "underlying reality".  Categories can be created,
but their "existence" does not prove anything about the people or
objects so classified.

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sun Sep  8 11:50:20 PDT 1996
Article: 53207 of alt.discrimination
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.skinheads,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Luminance, Chrominance, and Genocide
Date: 6 Sep 1996 20:46:35 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Kevin Alfred Strom  wrote:

>I have stated repeatedly that, in my opinion, self-description and a 
>pledge to support the survival and advancement of our race ought to be 
>all that is needed for residence in a future White state.


And for full rights of citizenship, Mr. Strom?  Would the pledge to 
"support the survival and advancement of [the "White"] race" entail
agreement to limit the number of children or submit to sterilisation
if one were not a member of the "White race", Mr. Strom?  I mean
really, what if my "self-description" went something like this:  I think
of myself as "white", but I am a member of a synogogue.  Or does
belonging to a synogogue "not support the advancement of the "White race"?  



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Sep  9 09:26:06 PDT 1996
Article: 42497 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!torn!kone!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Whites Created Everything
Date: 6 Sep 1996 17:22:21 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Ourobouros wrote:


>Mr Lund, I have discovered something on:

>http://www.astc.org/inquirer/mummy.html

>While you have admitted to be too lazy to pick up a book maybe we will hear 
>an excuse about typing now?  (You can always cut & paste if typing is too
>much strain).

"Mr. Stone", your snide remark here implies that you supplied Mr. Lund with
the reference to a book, which of course is untrue, as is obvious to anyone
who has been following this exchange.  A vague reference to Reader's Digest
hardly qualifies as a reference to a book.  Or is that sort of thing
acceptable in New Zealand universities?

>It is strange that I was able to discover something yet you weren't.  BTW,
>that was first go, so there is probably more sites out there (go have a 
>look).

You assume that Mr. Lund went off in search of the specific references
which you have used to substantiate your argument, without having been
given the specific references by you.  As anyone who has followed this
thread is aware, of course, Mr. Lund indicated that he had no intention
of attempting to locate your sources until you ponied them up.  You make
a statement based on empirical evidence, the onus is on you to provide
the empirical evidence when your statement is challenged.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Sep  9 16:13:57 PDT 1996
Article: 63894 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Let us not overlook ...
Date: 9 Sep 1996 14:27:17 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <5119g5$atd@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Ken McVay represents the Zundel site, Mr. Moran?  They
have a link to Nizkor, as well, I'm sure you realise.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your 
revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Sep  9 19:42:08 PDT 1996
Article: 42606 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Ken the Mc-a-voidly lie'n: Bully, Blowhard, Coward
Date: 9 Sep 1996 14:02:04 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <51180s$5hv@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

>Is it true (that professorships are handed like candy)?

>I fail to see someone of your calibre getting near even a Ph.D,
>then again with subjects like "Women studies", "Maori Studies",
>"Socialogy" and the like anything is possible.  Do you know if
>California has varsity subjects in frizbee throwing?  I heard a
>rumour of it a couple of years ago, and it seems an apt time to
>ask.

I won't rise to the flame bait, except to say, since you seem
to be quite unfamiliar with the geography of North America,
that California is not only 5 or 6 thousand kilometres from
where I am, but it is also located in a different country.

[...]

>>A nice demonstration of your antisemitism, "Mr. Stone".

>Where?

Let me explain it for you.  You think it is a form of insult
to me to spell my name in such a way to imply that I am Jewish.
I infer from this that you think that being called a Jew is 
tantamount to being insulted.  From this, I surmise that,
in your opinion, "Jewishness" is a negative thing.  Thus, I
conclude that you are an antisemite.  Or, since you don't
"recognise" the term in its common usage for more than a
century, you are a Jew-hater.  I know you try to run the old
red herring on the etymology of the word "antisemitic" in the
part I've snipped below.  The history of the term has been
explained countless times in the months I've been on this ng,
so I'm not going to take it up again.  If you want to write
your own version of English, fine.  Just don't expect others
to kowtow to your idiosyncratic uses of common terms.  

[...]

>>To correct your errors so impressionistic folks won't be fooled
>>by your lies and distortions.  I am merely exercising my right
>>to free speech here, "Mr. Stone".  Your right to free speech
>>does not entitle to you lie without being called on it.

>Citations where I have lied Finsten.  Please don't confuse this
>with your usual mis-interpretation of what I write.

When I have time, I'll look up the series of exchanges where you
denied that you ever said that Cavalli-Sforza said that "whites"
have something like 88 genes and "blacks" have only about half
of that.  The original error may not have been purposeful
misrepresentation of Cavalli-Sforza's words, but rather likely
were the result of your lack of understanding of genetics.
But your denial that you ever said this, which I documented
using your own posts retrieved from Dejanews, was clearly a
lie.

>No Finsten, your presence here would indicate the opposite of
>your advocacy and that is to hamper my freedom of speech.  Why else
>would you bore readers with your interpretation of anthropology?

I "bore" readers with some real anthropology because you attempt
to mislead readers with outdated, misinterpreted and/or distorted
"anthropology".

[...]

>>More ad hominem attack.  Doesn't take you long to seek this
>>last refuge, does it, "Mr. Stone".

>I prefer to call it goading or reverse pyschology.  Unfortunately
>for you, I happen to like using it.

I think that it is more unfortunate for you than it is for me,
because when you resort to such sleazy and weak tactics, it is
apparent to any intelligent reader that you have run out of
substantive commentary.  Instead of attacking the arguments or
the data, you attack me.  Whoopee.  Makes you look bad.

[...]

>I saw the phrase even before you did.  Do you remember me continuely
>asking about what right anthropologists have in calling the Portuguese
>Caucasian?

>Webster dictionary:
>1. A member of the white-skinned division of the human race: so called
>from a skull found in the Caucasus, which was taken as establishing the
>type.

>Sure the Portuguese once could be classified as Caucasiod, but not 
>anymore.

Gasp, Webster's dictionary is the last word on human biology!!
Who woulda thunk it!  Throw away all those silly books and articles
on skeletal morphology, genetics, physiology and all those
"superfluous" stuff and just buy yourself a copy of Webster's
dictionary!!

Since you think it is such an authority, "Mr. Stone", what does
Webster's say about the definition of "antisemitic" (or its various
spellings)?



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Tue Sep 10 19:11:34 PDT 1996
Article: 42743 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!utcsri!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Ken the Mc-a-voidly lie'n: Bully, Blowhard, Coward
Date: 9 Sep 1996 15:27:41 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <511d1d$h2t@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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reverend@iinet.net.au (AgamemnoN) wrote:
>Laura Finsten  wrote:

>>>Your point is?

>>My point is that someone who posts anonymously, and who cannot be
>>reached by e-mail has no right to call anyone else a hypocrite.

>I've sent email to you Laura as well as a couple of your cronies, but
>either you didn't have the courtesy to reply or your own email address
>is fake! Maybe you're using a fake name as well ..

My e-mail address is not fake, and you would know that because your
message to me did not get bounced back to you as undeliverable.  My
attempt to tell "Mr. Stone" not to send me private e-mail about
apw-p discussions was bounced back with the information that the ISP
had no user with the ID "Mr. Stone" uses.

AgamemnoN today, Peter Wheeler a couple of weeks ago?  Yes, I got your
message.  As a rule, I do not engage in private discussion of newsgroup
topics.  I apologise for not taking the time to inform you of that.
  

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Tue Sep 10 23:09:10 PDT 1996
Article: 64306 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.serv.net!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!utcsri!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 12 million into camps, Mr. "Stone?"
Date: 10 Sep 1996 15:25:40 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <51419k$g37@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <4v9ejf$18j@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <50le5n$d5k@lex.zippo.com> <50ppn4$a8h@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50r18l$c78@lex.zippo.com> <50sm11$neh@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <50svcf$em4@lex.zippo.com> <50uu2s$b0k@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50vu8i$s1d@lex.zippo.com>  <510nkp$9iv@lex.zippo.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:42794 alt.revisionism:64306

Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

>Where was it answered, Daniel Mittleman (sp?) has been the most rational
>of the antagonists to date, who says 6 million died in camps, 6 million
>outside.  Proof would be nice, other than the "gas-wagons" that Rich Graves
>was muttering about.  The Einsatzgruppen which Rich Graves cites from
                       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Nizkor (which I have only skimmed) mention something about 137,000
 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ 
>"victims" which is insignificant compared to 12 million, oh sorry, "around"
>in both cases.


Since you say you only skimmed the relevant documents housed on Nizkor,
then perhaps you can be forgiven for missing the salient part of the
sentence which follows the death toll figure of 137,346:

"This is for *one* Einsatzgruppen, in a five month period, in one area."

There were *four* Einsatzgruppen, which operated over a period of *several
years*, "Mr. Stone".

Quotation from:
http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ftp.cgi?orgs/german/einsatzgruppen/jager.report


[...]


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep 11 07:35:33 PDT 1996
Article: 42808 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!utcsri!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.skinheads,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Luminance, Chrominance, and Genocide
Date: 10 Sep 1996 14:27:55 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <513ttb$bmv@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Kevin Alfred Strom  wrote:
>Laura Finsten wrote:
 
>> Kevin Alfred Strom  wrote:
 
>> >I have stated repeatedly that, in my opinion, self-description and a
>> >pledge to support the survival and advancement of our race ought to be
>> >all that is needed for residence in a future White state.
 
>> And for full rights of citizenship, Mr. Strom?  Would the pledge to
>> "support the survival and advancement of [the "White"] race" entail
>> agreement to limit the number of children or submit to sterilisation
>> if one were not a member of the "White race", Mr. Strom?

>If one were not a member of the White race, one would hardly want to live 
>in a White racial state or be able to truthfully sign a statement 
>describing one's self as White, would one?

I'm really happy to see you clear all that confusion about how you
National Appliance folks distinguish "White" from "non-White" folks.
Since you won't explain what the "truth" of "White-ness" is, it would
be very easy to sign such a statement, wouldn't it?  It is, you seem
to be saying, nothing more than a matter of self-description, after all.
I can, in fact, imagine a lot of scenarios in which those you undoubtedly
would not consider "White" would wish to remain in their homes, their
territories.

>>  I mean
>> really, what if my "self-description" went something like this:  I think
>> of myself as "white", but I am a member of a synogogue.  Or does
>> belonging to a synogogue "not support the advancement of the "White race"?

>If a synogogue is the same as a synagogue, certainly.

Thanks so much for picking up on the really significant details, and clarifying
that Jews are not, in your estimation, "White".

>Happy equinox,

And a Jewish New Year, to you, too.



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep 11 07:37:15 PDT 1996
Article: 37134 of alt.skinheads
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!utcsri!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.skinheads,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Luminance, Chrominance, and Genocide
Date: 10 Sep 1996 14:27:55 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <513ttb$bmv@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Kevin Alfred Strom  wrote:
>Laura Finsten wrote:
 
>> Kevin Alfred Strom  wrote:
 
>> >I have stated repeatedly that, in my opinion, self-description and a
>> >pledge to support the survival and advancement of our race ought to be
>> >all that is needed for residence in a future White state.
 
>> And for full rights of citizenship, Mr. Strom?  Would the pledge to
>> "support the survival and advancement of [the "White"] race" entail
>> agreement to limit the number of children or submit to sterilisation
>> if one were not a member of the "White race", Mr. Strom?

>If one were not a member of the White race, one would hardly want to live 
>in a White racial state or be able to truthfully sign a statement 
>describing one's self as White, would one?

I'm really happy to see you clear all that confusion about how you
National Appliance folks distinguish "White" from "non-White" folks.
Since you won't explain what the "truth" of "White-ness" is, it would
be very easy to sign such a statement, wouldn't it?  It is, you seem
to be saying, nothing more than a matter of self-description, after all.
I can, in fact, imagine a lot of scenarios in which those you undoubtedly
would not consider "White" would wish to remain in their homes, their
territories.

>>  I mean
>> really, what if my "self-description" went something like this:  I think
>> of myself as "white", but I am a member of a synogogue.  Or does
>> belonging to a synogogue "not support the advancement of the "White race"?

>If a synogogue is the same as a synagogue, certainly.

Thanks so much for picking up on the really significant details, and clarifying
that Jews are not, in your estimation, "White".

>Happy equinox,

And a Jewish New Year, to you, too.



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep 11 08:42:26 PDT 1996
Article: 53338 of alt.discrimination
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!utcsri!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.skinheads,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: Luminance, Chrominance, and Genocide
Date: 10 Sep 1996 14:27:55 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <513ttb$bmv@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Kevin Alfred Strom  wrote:
>Laura Finsten wrote:
 
>> Kevin Alfred Strom  wrote:
 
>> >I have stated repeatedly that, in my opinion, self-description and a
>> >pledge to support the survival and advancement of our race ought to be
>> >all that is needed for residence in a future White state.
 
>> And for full rights of citizenship, Mr. Strom?  Would the pledge to
>> "support the survival and advancement of [the "White"] race" entail
>> agreement to limit the number of children or submit to sterilisation
>> if one were not a member of the "White race", Mr. Strom?

>If one were not a member of the White race, one would hardly want to live 
>in a White racial state or be able to truthfully sign a statement 
>describing one's self as White, would one?

I'm really happy to see you clear all that confusion about how you
National Appliance folks distinguish "White" from "non-White" folks.
Since you won't explain what the "truth" of "White-ness" is, it would
be very easy to sign such a statement, wouldn't it?  It is, you seem
to be saying, nothing more than a matter of self-description, after all.
I can, in fact, imagine a lot of scenarios in which those you undoubtedly
would not consider "White" would wish to remain in their homes, their
territories.

>>  I mean
>> really, what if my "self-description" went something like this:  I think
>> of myself as "white", but I am a member of a synogogue.  Or does
>> belonging to a synogogue "not support the advancement of the "White race"?

>If a synogogue is the same as a synagogue, certainly.

Thanks so much for picking up on the really significant details, and clarifying
that Jews are not, in your estimation, "White".

>Happy equinox,

And a Jewish New Year, to you, too.



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Thu Sep 12 09:22:03 PDT 1996
Article: 29266 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazism v. Communism (was Re: Milton Kleim)
Date: 12 Sep 1996 13:17:59 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <5192i7$4lu@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <199609070135.SAA02878@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <50siqs$fui@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  <3236F30F.D8F@conterra.com>
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Bob Whitaker  wrote:


>   But what about the official line that Hitler was only bad because he
>was a racist?  All I ever hear is that racist=Nazi, and that socialism
>does not equal Communism.

This is all you hear because you haven't been taking your medication
again, apparently, Mr. Whitaker and those voices in your head are
making it impossible for you to read with comprehension the words
of those you are "debating" with.

>   Since you do not insist that racism is Nazism, doesn't that make you
>a Nazi Who Wants to Kill Six Million Jews?

Only in your mind.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Thu Sep 12 09:23:18 PDT 1996
Article: 42973 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazism v. Communism (was Re: Milton Kleim)
Date: 12 Sep 1996 13:17:59 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <5192i7$4lu@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Bob Whitaker  wrote:


>   But what about the official line that Hitler was only bad because he
>was a racist?  All I ever hear is that racist=Nazi, and that socialism
>does not equal Communism.

This is all you hear because you haven't been taking your medication
again, apparently, Mr. Whitaker and those voices in your head are
making it impossible for you to read with comprehension the words
of those you are "debating" with.

>   Since you do not insist that racism is Nazism, doesn't that make you
>a Nazi Who Wants to Kill Six Million Jews?

Only in your mind.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Thu Sep 12 12:39:27 PDT 1996
Article: 64654 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazism v. Communism (was Re: Milton Kleim)
Date: 12 Sep 1996 13:17:59 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <5192i7$4lu@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <199609070135.SAA02878@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <50siqs$fui@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  <3236F30F.D8F@conterra.com>
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Bob Whitaker  wrote:


>   But what about the official line that Hitler was only bad because he
>was a racist?  All I ever hear is that racist=Nazi, and that socialism
>does not equal Communism.

This is all you hear because you haven't been taking your medication
again, apparently, Mr. Whitaker and those voices in your head are
making it impossible for you to read with comprehension the words
of those you are "debating" with.

>   Since you do not insist that racism is Nazism, doesn't that make you
>a Nazi Who Wants to Kill Six Million Jews?

Only in your mind.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Thu Sep 12 12:39:28 PDT 1996
Article: 64681 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!usc!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Shoah Visual History Foundation
Date: 12 Sep 1996 01:20:20 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:
>In article ,
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

[...]

>> I've now been called "fatbroad, "dumbtwat," and "shrill."
  
>> And all three by revisionists, who "NEVER" stoop to name-calling.
  
>> Amazing, isn't it?

>If this means that you can lay claim to yet another T-Shirt, while I have
>yet to get the go-ahead from his sister's cat, I will be sorely
>disappointed.

You folks don't seem to understand the way it is with the fatbroad
t-shirt.  There is, and only ever will be, *one* and *only* one
fatbroad t-shirt.  It is one size fits all, literally.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Thu Sep 12 20:04:06 PDT 1996
Article: 29301 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: politics.usa.constitution,talk.politics.mis.,alt,.politics.equality,alt.fan,rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism.,alt.skinheads,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: What Mommy Professor Says Never WORKS!!!
Date: 12 Sep 1996 19:59:39 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <519q3b$8c3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <32370140.774F@conterra.com>
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Bob Whitaker  wrote:

>Well, we have the usual screams of "race isn't really there" that
>I've been hearing for forty years. The problem is, while the screams are
>always the same, the "authority" quoted is always different in every
>five-year period.

"Race isn't really there"?????  You really are a master at obtuseness.
Why don't you explain for me what exactly you mean when you say 
something like this, Mr. Whitaker.  Take pity on a dumb clone and
explain yourself.  I don't think that anyone is saying that differences
in skin colour, hair colour and texture, facial features, blood types
and so are nonexistent.  So what I really and truly don't understand
is what you mean by a statement like this.  Why don't you tell me what
you mean by a phrase like "race IS really there".

Just like I don't understand what you mean by your use of the word
"genetics" in your new book.  You appear to be using it to imply that
studies in human genetics have led inexorably to a conclusion that
somehow is consistent with your vaguely articulated racist political
philosophy.  Now to me, "genetics" is a science, not a particular
set of conclusions.  And I do believe that I know a lot more about
genetics, and human genetics in particular than you do, Mr. Whitaker.
You demonstrated this quite aptly several months ago when you
indicated that you thought the concept of a "stable genotype" was
a good thing for "Whites" (it is an impossibility, unless you start
cloning people).  So you like Hernstein's work.  Was that genetics,
Mr. Whitaker?  What field was Hernstein's training in?  You even
wrote about it your plague on both houses book, no?  Now I'm 
interested enough to try to find the time to read it if I can get
it through interlibrary loan, because I'm really curious about
what sort of commentary you might have on the subject, being a
trained economist and all who thinks stable genotypes are possible
in sexually reproducing species.

Funny that.  You really like genetics a whole lot.  Yet it is one
of the newest sciences, did you know that?  About the same age
as anthropology, in fact.
 
>   In fact, today's quoters don't even know the earlier crap existed,
>because they are so obviously silly.  These theories have a short
>half-life, protected by academia from argument, and the fact aht anyone
>who disagrees with liberal orthodoxy is declared to be A Nazi Who Wants
>To Kill Six Million Jews, and argument is crushed for a while.

What earlier crap would that be, Mr. Whitaker?  19th century "racial
science"?  Boasian physical anthropology?  Funny, you know, I would
think that ideas with "protected by academia from argument" would
have a long "half-life" rather than a short one, Mr. Whitaker.
 
[censorship]

>    I only grew up after being a college professor myself.

I would suggest that this self-evaluation is premature.  

>I worked at
>a prison, and saw how both the cons and the staff laughed at the new
>prison psychologist, who took two years or more to get away from Mommy
>Professor unmitigated crap long enough to realize that criminals lie.

An economist ought to know better than to generalise based on a sample
of one.  By the way, why would a prison hire an economist, Mr. Whitaker?
Or was it nepotism that got you a job when you needed one?
  
[more censorship, man I love the power....]

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Thu Sep 12 20:10:05 PDT 1996
Article: 43025 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!swrinde!howland.erols.net!news3.cac.psu.edu!news.cse.psu.edu!news.cc.swarthmore.edu!netnews.upenn.edu!dsinc!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: politics.usa.constitution,talk.politics.mis.,alt,.politics.equality,alt.fan,rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism.,alt.skinheads,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: What Mommy Professor Says Never WORKS!!!
Date: 12 Sep 1996 19:59:39 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 71
Message-ID: <519q3b$8c3@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Bob Whitaker  wrote:

>Well, we have the usual screams of "race isn't really there" that
>I've been hearing for forty years. The problem is, while the screams are
>always the same, the "authority" quoted is always different in every
>five-year period.

"Race isn't really there"?????  You really are a master at obtuseness.
Why don't you explain for me what exactly you mean when you say 
something like this, Mr. Whitaker.  Take pity on a dumb clone and
explain yourself.  I don't think that anyone is saying that differences
in skin colour, hair colour and texture, facial features, blood types
and so are nonexistent.  So what I really and truly don't understand
is what you mean by a statement like this.  Why don't you tell me what
you mean by a phrase like "race IS really there".

Just like I don't understand what you mean by your use of the word
"genetics" in your new book.  You appear to be using it to imply that
studies in human genetics have led inexorably to a conclusion that
somehow is consistent with your vaguely articulated racist political
philosophy.  Now to me, "genetics" is a science, not a particular
set of conclusions.  And I do believe that I know a lot more about
genetics, and human genetics in particular than you do, Mr. Whitaker.
You demonstrated this quite aptly several months ago when you
indicated that you thought the concept of a "stable genotype" was
a good thing for "Whites" (it is an impossibility, unless you start
cloning people).  So you like Hernstein's work.  Was that genetics,
Mr. Whitaker?  What field was Hernstein's training in?  You even
wrote about it your plague on both houses book, no?  Now I'm 
interested enough to try to find the time to read it if I can get
it through interlibrary loan, because I'm really curious about
what sort of commentary you might have on the subject, being a
trained economist and all who thinks stable genotypes are possible
in sexually reproducing species.

Funny that.  You really like genetics a whole lot.  Yet it is one
of the newest sciences, did you know that?  About the same age
as anthropology, in fact.
 
>   In fact, today's quoters don't even know the earlier crap existed,
>because they are so obviously silly.  These theories have a short
>half-life, protected by academia from argument, and the fact aht anyone
>who disagrees with liberal orthodoxy is declared to be A Nazi Who Wants
>To Kill Six Million Jews, and argument is crushed for a while.

What earlier crap would that be, Mr. Whitaker?  19th century "racial
science"?  Boasian physical anthropology?  Funny, you know, I would
think that ideas with "protected by academia from argument" would
have a long "half-life" rather than a short one, Mr. Whitaker.
 
[censorship]

>    I only grew up after being a college professor myself.

I would suggest that this self-evaluation is premature.  

>I worked at
>a prison, and saw how both the cons and the staff laughed at the new
>prison psychologist, who took two years or more to get away from Mommy
>Professor unmitigated crap long enough to realize that criminals lie.

An economist ought to know better than to generalise based on a sample
of one.  By the way, why would a prison hire an economist, Mr. Whitaker?
Or was it nepotism that got you a job when you needed one?
  
[more censorship, man I love the power....]

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Thu Sep 12 20:21:50 PDT 1996
Article: 37272 of alt.skinheads
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: politics.usa.constitution,talk.politics.mis.,alt,.politics.equality,alt.fan,rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism.,alt.skinheads,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: What Mommy Professor Says Never WORKS!!!
Date: 12 Sep 1996 19:59:39 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 71
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:29301 alt.skinheads:37272 alt.politics.white-power:43025

Bob Whitaker  wrote:

>Well, we have the usual screams of "race isn't really there" that
>I've been hearing for forty years. The problem is, while the screams are
>always the same, the "authority" quoted is always different in every
>five-year period.

"Race isn't really there"?????  You really are a master at obtuseness.
Why don't you explain for me what exactly you mean when you say 
something like this, Mr. Whitaker.  Take pity on a dumb clone and
explain yourself.  I don't think that anyone is saying that differences
in skin colour, hair colour and texture, facial features, blood types
and so are nonexistent.  So what I really and truly don't understand
is what you mean by a statement like this.  Why don't you tell me what
you mean by a phrase like "race IS really there".

Just like I don't understand what you mean by your use of the word
"genetics" in your new book.  You appear to be using it to imply that
studies in human genetics have led inexorably to a conclusion that
somehow is consistent with your vaguely articulated racist political
philosophy.  Now to me, "genetics" is a science, not a particular
set of conclusions.  And I do believe that I know a lot more about
genetics, and human genetics in particular than you do, Mr. Whitaker.
You demonstrated this quite aptly several months ago when you
indicated that you thought the concept of a "stable genotype" was
a good thing for "Whites" (it is an impossibility, unless you start
cloning people).  So you like Hernstein's work.  Was that genetics,
Mr. Whitaker?  What field was Hernstein's training in?  You even
wrote about it your plague on both houses book, no?  Now I'm 
interested enough to try to find the time to read it if I can get
it through interlibrary loan, because I'm really curious about
what sort of commentary you might have on the subject, being a
trained economist and all who thinks stable genotypes are possible
in sexually reproducing species.

Funny that.  You really like genetics a whole lot.  Yet it is one
of the newest sciences, did you know that?  About the same age
as anthropology, in fact.
 
>   In fact, today's quoters don't even know the earlier crap existed,
>because they are so obviously silly.  These theories have a short
>half-life, protected by academia from argument, and the fact aht anyone
>who disagrees with liberal orthodoxy is declared to be A Nazi Who Wants
>To Kill Six Million Jews, and argument is crushed for a while.

What earlier crap would that be, Mr. Whitaker?  19th century "racial
science"?  Boasian physical anthropology?  Funny, you know, I would
think that ideas with "protected by academia from argument" would
have a long "half-life" rather than a short one, Mr. Whitaker.
 
[censorship]

>    I only grew up after being a college professor myself.

I would suggest that this self-evaluation is premature.  

>I worked at
>a prison, and saw how both the cons and the staff laughed at the new
>prison psychologist, who took two years or more to get away from Mommy
>Professor unmitigated crap long enough to realize that criminals lie.

An economist ought to know better than to generalise based on a sample
of one.  By the way, why would a prison hire an economist, Mr. Whitaker?
Or was it nepotism that got you a job when you needed one?
  
[more censorship, man I love the power....]

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Fri Sep 13 16:57:55 PDT 1996
Article: 29388 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.censorship,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.african-american
Subject: Re: Nazi clones say - "Agree with us or you're a Race Traitor"
Date: 13 Sep 1996 17:28:26 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <51c5jq$ojh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <504onb$fpb@orion.cybercom.net> <507o4f$oph@molokini.conterra.com> <50d9sh$gag@orion.cybercom.net> <50i142$b90@jerry.loop.net> <50k7nr$h4j@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50kvj7$m9i@jerry.loop.net> <50latl$rpq@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50ss1u$oqe@jerry.loop.net> <50vup2$3jr@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <3238f23b.4139807@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
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ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) wrote:
>Laura Finsten  wrote:

>>goat@anus.com (CHRIST SODOMIZER) wrote

[...]

>>>That's your categorization of what they speak, then, and thus your
>>>re-categorization of the little you have read of my speech fits nicely
>>>into that as it is a solopsistic definition.

>>No, that is a reasonable inference based on the *content* of what
>>they say, including the repeated use of generic terms like "you 
>>clones", "you liberals", "you race traitors", "you anti-whites"
>>to describe everyone who disagrees with them.

>Isn't it the same with "anti-Semite" and "fascist": i.e. anyone I
>oppose for any reason? (High school jocks, being neither political
>nor very bright, use the term "fag" for the same purpose.)

Perhaps if one has an adolescent mind, those sorts of labels might
seem appropriate.  I reserve the terms antisemite and fascist for
people who have earned them.  Similarly, I reserve the label Nazi
for those who were members of the NSDAP and/or subscribed to its
racist political philosophy, and neo-Nazi for those today who
espouse and/or spout virtually identical views.

>    It's merely practical Orwell: "us" vrs. "them" -- Don't be late
>for the Five-Minute Hate! The "enemy" is totally relavistic: that's
>why history has to be periodically rewritten--and entrenched interests
>do all they can to prevent that from occuring.
>   "Neo-Nazi" or "Nazi-clone" is--_mutatis mutandis_--the same as
>"fag" for the high school jock (or "Denier" for Big Debbie): the
>_goy_, the "infidel." If one remembers that the words host and hostile
>come from the same Latin root-word (_hostes_, meaning both stranger
>and enemy), he gets a much clearer picture as to how the psyche works.

>Maybe one would prefer something else, but that "something else"
>wouldn't be human.

Unlike you, I believe that humans are capable of seeing shades of grey,
and of seeing complexities and depth, and not just superficial and
simplistic categories.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Fri Sep 13 17:57:10 PDT 1996
Article: 43127 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.nationalism.black,alt.censorship,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.african-american
Subject: Re: Nazi clones say - "Agree with us or you're a Race Traitor"
Date: 13 Sep 1996 17:28:26 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <51c5jq$ojh@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <504onb$fpb@orion.cybercom.net> <507o4f$oph@molokini.conterra.com> <50d9sh$gag@orion.cybercom.net> <50i142$b90@jerry.loop.net> <50k7nr$h4j@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50kvj7$m9i@jerry.loop.net> <50latl$rpq@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <50ss1u$oqe@jerry.loop.net> <50vup2$3jr@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <3238f23b.4139807@nntp.ix.netcom.com>
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ursus_m@ix.netcom.com (Ursus Major) wrote:
>Laura Finsten  wrote:

>>goat@anus.com (CHRIST SODOMIZER) wrote

[...]

>>>That's your categorization of what they speak, then, and thus your
>>>re-categorization of the little you have read of my speech fits nicely
>>>into that as it is a solopsistic definition.

>>No, that is a reasonable inference based on the *content* of what
>>they say, including the repeated use of generic terms like "you 
>>clones", "you liberals", "you race traitors", "you anti-whites"
>>to describe everyone who disagrees with them.

>Isn't it the same with "anti-Semite" and "fascist": i.e. anyone I
>oppose for any reason? (High school jocks, being neither political
>nor very bright, use the term "fag" for the same purpose.)

Perhaps if one has an adolescent mind, those sorts of labels might
seem appropriate.  I reserve the terms antisemite and fascist for
people who have earned them.  Similarly, I reserve the label Nazi
for those who were members of the NSDAP and/or subscribed to its
racist political philosophy, and neo-Nazi for those today who
espouse and/or spout virtually identical views.

>    It's merely practical Orwell: "us" vrs. "them" -- Don't be late
>for the Five-Minute Hate! The "enemy" is totally relavistic: that's
>why history has to be periodically rewritten--and entrenched interests
>do all they can to prevent that from occuring.
>   "Neo-Nazi" or "Nazi-clone" is--_mutatis mutandis_--the same as
>"fag" for the high school jock (or "Denier" for Big Debbie): the
>_goy_, the "infidel." If one remembers that the words host and hostile
>come from the same Latin root-word (_hostes_, meaning both stranger
>and enemy), he gets a much clearer picture as to how the psyche works.

>Maybe one would prefer something else, but that "something else"
>wouldn't be human.

Unlike you, I believe that humans are capable of seeing shades of grey,
and of seeing complexities and depth, and not just superficial and
simplistic categories.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Sep 14 09:11:33 PDT 1996
Article: 43165 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.discrimination
Subject: Re: THE PC ATTITUDE AND THE "OFFICIAL JEWISH ATTITUDE"
Date: 13 Sep 1996 19:24:19 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 56
Message-ID: <51ccd3$7gq@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <32347B3E.4E56@conterra.com> <514sr7$b2v@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <32393273.52BB@ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:43165 alt.discrimination:53403

Kevin Alfred Strom  wrote:
>Laura Finsten wrote:
 
>> Well, Mr. Whitaker, are Jews "White" or aren't they?

>Jews are a peculiar hybrid people, and in practical fact can be any one 
>of many different racial mixes. That they have group tendencies and 
>characteristics (like susceptibility to certain diseases) does show some 
>degree of racial kinship between Jews who, to our eyes, appear to be of 
>divergent racial stocks.

So if I were to convert to Judaism, would I undergo some kind of strange
genetic transformation and become a "hybrid", Mr. Strom?

>Is it not natural that, living as aliens in many lands, such a people 
>would try to break down the normal kinship-based societal structures of 
>their hosts? 

No, it is "not natural" at all.  This is rather a better description
of the historical situations in which large, powerful groups with
territorial designs have dealt with local inhabitants.  Examples
include Africa and North America under colonial rule.  

>Is it not natural that they would promote "religious" and 
>pseudo-scientific justifications for a new moral paradigm in which 
>"racism" is the ultimate evil? It may be that such behavior is not 
>entirely at the conscious level.

"Religious justifications"?  Are you suggesting that it is only
the Jewish interpretation of the Old Testament that results in
a moral order in which acceptance of others is considered to be
a good thing?  That this is *not* a part of any Christian doctrine?

"Pseudo-scientific justifications"?  While non-Jews have come up with
"real scientific" justifications for racism?  Or are you suggesting
that Jews have so dominated (pseudo-)science that it hasn't been
possible for any "real science" to get done?

>Some Jews have renounced this hypocritical mode of survival, and exposed 
>it for all to see.
[...]
>The closest analogue to the Jewish people is the Gypsies, who look 
>approximately White in many cases in Europe, but quite different 
>elsewhere, and who maintain a kind of unity despite this. Their predation 
>is of a different kind, and on a much lower and more benign level.

Predation???  You're going to have to explain that one more explicitly,
Mr. Strom.  Specifically what kinds of exclusively Jewish behaviours
constitute this "predation" you are talking about?



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Tue Sep 17 13:08:43 PDT 1996
Article: 43589 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Finsten: Proponent for Freedom of Speech
Date: 16 Sep 1996 14:07:45 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <516dlj$4ai@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

[major editing; that "Mr. Stone" does not believe me is hardly a surprise]

>>>But my point is not argue whether fundamentalists are right or wrong,
>>>but merely, if they have done the work, shouldn't they be credited for
>>>it?  I know the usual reaction is just to scoff.

>>No, "Mr. Stone".  Doing the work, as you put it, isn't enough if the end
>>result of the work fails to demonstrate an understanding of the material
>>that constitutes the scope of the course, essay question, or assignment.

>No, "Miss Finsten".  You are saying that no matter what, unless they 
>accept the dogma, then they have failed to accept the dogma and its
>"truth."

No, "Mr. Stone".  I am saying that if the question or assignment asks them
to demonstrate that they *understand* a certain body of theory, data and
interpretations and their responses fail to demonstrate that they have
acquired that understanding, then they have not done what they were asked
to do.  Please note that the key word is "understanding", not "acceptance"
or "belief".  I can demonstrate that I "understand" the 17th and 18th
century concept of "The Great Chain of Being", and discuss what was used
as "evidence" to support this ordering of life on earth.  This does *not*
mean, however, that I *accept* this as a valid or useful way to explain
the variety of life on earth or the relationships between different life
forms, or that I believe literally in the creation account in the book
of Genesis.  

[...]

>>Gee thanks for reminding me that this is a hypothetical example.  Otherwise
>>how would I know?

>Please review your comrades, this wasn't specifically for you, but your
>uncomprehending comrades that desire to amuse us with their stupidity.

"review my comrades"????  Gee, I'm the drill sargeant here and nobody told
me.  I'm miffed.  I coulda been ordering people around all this time and
instead I've just been sitting here all by lonesome posting away...

>>My answer is a very simple one: "d. other".  The techniques used to determine
>>the ages of fossil evidence all stem from the geophysical sciences, and I
>>am not a geophysical scientist.  There are very few anthropologists who
>>would have the specialised knowledge necessary to evaluate the challenge
>>to geophysics implied in your hypothetical scenario.  I would leave the
>>debate to the geophysicists and other scientists who know what they are
>>talking about.

>In other words, "Go to the apartment down the hall."  Typical inefficient
>bureaucracy.

Bureaucracy???  Ah "Mr. Stone" the wise, so intelligent that he has mastered
not only an entire discipline and all its internal subdivisions, but also
every related science or other area of study that has any relationships to 
that discipline.  So you are saying that people who study fossil hominids
should not only be palaeoanthropologists (and experts in every other field
of anthropology, as well), but should also know as much about geophysics
as a geophysicist, about palaeontology as a palaeontologist, about
palaeogeography as a palaeogeographer, about geology as a geologist,
about primate behaviour and anatomy as a primatologist...  
My aren't you exacting in your standards.

[...]


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep 18 09:13:08 PDT 1996
Article: 66524 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!manticore.mpsnet.com.mx!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!demos!news.stealth.net!newsfeed.uk.ibm.net!arclight.uoregon.edu!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 12 million into camps, Mr. "Stone?"
Date: 17 Sep 1996 15:21:01 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <51mfkt$f5p@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:43643 alt.revisionism:66524

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>On 15 Sep 1996 23:33:45 GMT, Laura Finsten  wrote:

>>Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

>>>I thought their tactic was to bore anyone attempting an alternative view
>>>of the hoaxacost.  You are right however, their tactic is not to have a
          ^^^^^^^^^
>>>meaningful argument.  I have done the ultimate sin by asking them to 
>>>actually provide some answers.


>>Still professing not to be a Holocaust denier, "Mr. Stone"?
>>Your error has not been in asking people to "provide some answers", as
>>you suggest, but in asking questions founded on a false conception of
>>what historians have actually said about the Holocaust.  

>	Neither of them have said anything about the holocaust.  They have only erased
>the absurdities from the Nuremberg trial testimony.  Of course they have never
>justified what they have omitted based upon other than considering those parts
>absurd.  Neither of them have ever explained why they kept the parts they did.  

>>Because your
>>questions came from a false basis, they were unanswerable questions,
>>"Mr. Stone".  I indicated to you the error in your allegation that
>>the Einsatzgruppen were responsible for only about 137,000 deaths,
>>yet you did not acknowledge the correction, or modify your earlier
>>question in light of this.  But it seems you aren't easily "goaded"
>>into doing any real research.

>	Actually that had to have been responsible for 4.2 million deaths.  
>But you know that.  


What I "know" is that you are a relentless and insufferably rude
troll who has jumped into a thread without reading the posts prior
to the present one which you have decided to grace with more of
your idiotic and unsubstantiated "commentary".

Had you followed the thread, you would know that "Mr. Stone" falsely
claimed that both Nizkor and mainstreat Holocaust historians state
that twelve million people were killed in Nazi concentration camps.
Had you followed the thread, you would know that I and several others
corrected "Mr. Stone's" error, which he still refuses to acknowledge
having made.
Had you followed the thread, you would know that I indicated to "Mr.
Stone" that many of the Nazis' victims died at the hands of mobile
death squads, the Einsatzgruppen.  Had you followed the thread, you
would know that "Mr. Stone" then apparently "skimmed" some file in
Nizkor and came up with a total death toll of ca. 137,000 attributable
to the Einsatzgruppen.  Had you followed the thread, you would know
that I then indicated to "Mr. Stone" that the figure of just over
137,000 was the total claimed by the commanding officer of only one
of the four Einsatzgruppen in operation, and for only a five month
period of their operation.  And that this is clearly stated in the
very document at Nizkor which "Mr. Stone" claims to have skimmed.

But you are only interested in trolling.

LF, OFB



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Wed Sep 18 16:02:42 PDT 1996
Article: 30071 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA!finsten
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazism v. Communism (was Re: Milton Kleim)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:34:17 -0400
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 77
Message-ID: 
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On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Bob Whitaker wrote:

> See Rosenburg's reply below, broadly implying, at least, that I'm
> a Nazi.  It was written at about the same time you wrote your note.

Mr. Whitaker, my name is not Joel Rosenberg.  I guess you hadn't noticed
that.  

>        When you are called on it, you clones always deny you say anyone
> who disagrees with you is A Nazi Who Wants To Kill Six Million Jews.

Calling Joel Rosenberg does just that - it calls Joel Rosenberg on it.
I find it strange, hypocritical and a few other things that you might
want to discuss with your doctor that you feel perfectly comfortable
ascribing the motives of one or two people to everyone here who has
stated disagreement with you about anything WHILE AT THE SAME TIME
professing utter horror at being associated with the ideologies of
those with whom you yourself *have* expressed agreement, such as
Les Griswold.  Now try to get your neurons fired up long enough to
grasp that, Mr. Whitaker.  If you have a problem with Joel Rosenberg,
take it up with him. 
   
> Later you go right back to calling anyone you disagree with A Nazi Who
> Wants To Kill Six Million Jews.  But here you are denying it  and
> Rosenburg is doing it at the same time.

Perhaps part of your confusion arises over the meaning of the pronoun
"you" in this context.  Let me try to explain it to you.  Here, I presume
by "you" you mean the singular, and are referring to me, individually.
I am not Joel Rosenberg, Mr. Whitaker.  I have no control over what Joel
Rosenberg says, thinks, writes, or posts.  Do you understand that, Mr.
Whitaker?  *I* have not called you a Nazi.  I am not calling you a Nazi.
I think you are a demented sot, but that is irrelevant, I suppose.

>        You could do the "I never say Nazi...you're a Nazi!" tapdance

Despite my signature, I'm not a very good dancer, and I never did take
tap dance lessons (not that I ever wanted to, either).
Let me paraphrase your quotation to make it more accurate:  Laura never says
Nazi...Joel implies Bob Whitaker is a Nazi.  There are two different actors
in that sentence.  You seem to think all the folks here who disagree with
you are communicating with each other in order to work together against you.
Are you perhaps a touch paranoid, Mr. Whitaker?  I have communicated only a
couple of times with other current regular posters on this newsgroups,
privately, and never about you.  Maybe all the rest of them are in cahoots,
but if that's true, I'm not part of the caboodle.

> when you were in a Politically Correct environment and could control the
> timing.  On the net, you clones are going  to have to coordinate better.

You are assuming that we "are coordinated", if perhaps poorly.  We aren't.
That's part of the problem.  We're just individual folks who share some
perspectives in common, and probably would disagree on a lot of things,
not part of some collective.  Are you part of a collective, Mr. Whitaker?
Do you belong to some organisation like the National Alliance?
 
>   Laura Finsten wrote:

> > Bob Whitaker  wrote:
> > 
> > >   But what about the official line that Hitler was only bad because he
> > >was a racist?  All I ever hear is that racist=Nazi, and that socialism
> > >does not equal Communism.
> > 
> > This is all you hear because you haven't been taking your medication
> > again, apparently, Mr. Whitaker and those voices in your head are
> > making it impossible for you to read with comprehension the words
> > of those you are "debating" with.
> > 
> > >   Since you do not insist that racism is Nazism, doesn't that make you
> > >a Nazi Who Wants to Kill Six Million Jews?
> > 
> > Only in your mind.
> > 
> > "If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
> >           Emma Goldman
> 


From finsten@mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA Wed Sep 18 16:27:12 PDT 1996
Article: 66653 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!mcmail.CIS.McMaster.CA!finsten
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazism v. Communism (was Re: Milton Kleim)
Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 21:34:17 -0400
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 77
Message-ID: 
References: <199609070135.SAA02878@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <50siqs$fui@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  <3236F30F.D8F@conterra.com> <5192i7$4lu@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <323F3D94.27EC@conterra.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:30071 alt.politics.white-power:43715 alt.revisionism:66653

On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, Bob Whitaker wrote:

> See Rosenburg's reply below, broadly implying, at least, that I'm
> a Nazi.  It was written at about the same time you wrote your note.

Mr. Whitaker, my name is not Joel Rosenberg.  I guess you hadn't noticed
that.  

>        When you are called on it, you clones always deny you say anyone
> who disagrees with you is A Nazi Who Wants To Kill Six Million Jews.

Calling Joel Rosenberg does just that - it calls Joel Rosenberg on it.
I find it strange, hypocritical and a few other things that you might
want to discuss with your doctor that you feel perfectly comfortable
ascribing the motives of one or two people to everyone here who has
stated disagreement with you about anything WHILE AT THE SAME TIME
professing utter horror at being associated with the ideologies of
those with whom you yourself *have* expressed agreement, such as
Les Griswold.  Now try to get your neurons fired up long enough to
grasp that, Mr. Whitaker.  If you have a problem with Joel Rosenberg,
take it up with him. 
   
> Later you go right back to calling anyone you disagree with A Nazi Who
> Wants To Kill Six Million Jews.  But here you are denying it  and
> Rosenburg is doing it at the same time.

Perhaps part of your confusion arises over the meaning of the pronoun
"you" in this context.  Let me try to explain it to you.  Here, I presume
by "you" you mean the singular, and are referring to me, individually.
I am not Joel Rosenberg, Mr. Whitaker.  I have no control over what Joel
Rosenberg says, thinks, writes, or posts.  Do you understand that, Mr.
Whitaker?  *I* have not called you a Nazi.  I am not calling you a Nazi.
I think you are a demented sot, but that is irrelevant, I suppose.

>        You could do the "I never say Nazi...you're a Nazi!" tapdance

Despite my signature, I'm not a very good dancer, and I never did take
tap dance lessons (not that I ever wanted to, either).
Let me paraphrase your quotation to make it more accurate:  Laura never says
Nazi...Joel implies Bob Whitaker is a Nazi.  There are two different actors
in that sentence.  You seem to think all the folks here who disagree with
you are communicating with each other in order to work together against you.
Are you perhaps a touch paranoid, Mr. Whitaker?  I have communicated only a
couple of times with other current regular posters on this newsgroups,
privately, and never about you.  Maybe all the rest of them are in cahoots,
but if that's true, I'm not part of the caboodle.

> when you were in a Politically Correct environment and could control the
> timing.  On the net, you clones are going  to have to coordinate better.

You are assuming that we "are coordinated", if perhaps poorly.  We aren't.
That's part of the problem.  We're just individual folks who share some
perspectives in common, and probably would disagree on a lot of things,
not part of some collective.  Are you part of a collective, Mr. Whitaker?
Do you belong to some organisation like the National Alliance?
 
>   Laura Finsten wrote:

> > Bob Whitaker  wrote:
> > 
> > >   But what about the official line that Hitler was only bad because he
> > >was a racist?  All I ever hear is that racist=Nazi, and that socialism
> > >does not equal Communism.
> > 
> > This is all you hear because you haven't been taking your medication
> > again, apparently, Mr. Whitaker and those voices in your head are
> > making it impossible for you to read with comprehension the words
> > of those you are "debating" with.
> > 
> > >   Since you do not insist that racism is Nazism, doesn't that make you
> > >a Nazi Who Wants to Kill Six Million Jews?
> > 
> > Only in your mind.
> > 
> > "If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
> >           Emma Goldman
> 


From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Fri Sep 20 01:15:53 PDT 1996
Article: 66969 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Mayer Gambit still won't fly
Date: 19 Sep 1996 18:40:03 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 14
Message-ID: <51s423$t2i@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <32370775.13060451@news.spry.com> <51algk$hg1@juliana.sprynet.com> <323eba37.927399334@news.zilker.net> <51n49k$9n1@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <51ohhr$iq6@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <3240d61b.8750072@news.srv.ualberta.ca>
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There was what might have been an interesting piece, originally from
a German shortwave radio programme, on the CBC this morning at 5
about Goldhagen's speaking tour in Germany.  Unfortunately I wasn't
awake enough to catch all of it over my cereal.  But the concluding
remark was that, 50 years after the war has ended, Goldhagen's book
is encouraging real dialogue about the role of antisemitism among
the Germany citizenry in the Holocaust for the first time.

Did anybody hear it?  Can anyone add more?

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Fri Sep 20 09:44:37 PDT 1996
Article: 67038 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nazism v. Communism
Date: 19 Sep 1996 19:33:01 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 64
Message-ID: <51s75d$t2i@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <199609070135.SAA02878@abraham.cs.berkeley.edu> <50siqs$fui@freenet-news.carleton.ca>  <3236F30F.D8F@conterra.com> <516tsi$s96@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <323B18BA.54FF@conterra.com>  <323DB7D4.6C7E@ix.netcom.com>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.nationalism.white:30290 alt.politics.white-power:43891 alt.revisionism:67038

Kevin Alfred Strom  wrote:

>Here is a message from a few months back which lends substance to Mr. 
>Whitaker's thesis:

>---begin quoted message from finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca---

>Subject:      Re: Where this old hate comes from?
>From:         Laura Finsten 
>Date:         1996/05/22
>Message-Id:   <4nvu92$h76@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
>References:   <4np1gg$gkt@news.umbc.edu> 
><4nrmkp$527@freenet-News.carleton.ca> 
> <4nts6c$uk@molokini.conterra.com> 
> <4nv9lq$2cm@molokini.conterra.com>
>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-Ascii
>Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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>Mime-Version: 1.0
>Newsgroups:   alt.politics.white-Power
>X-Mailer:     Mozilla 1.1N (Macintosh; I; PPC)


>bob whitaker  wrote:

>[edit]

>>    Yousay anyone who opposes you is a Nazi, and then you don't 
>>want me to point out that this is the standard establishment crap?
>>    Fat chance.

>You say that your ideological brethren like Les Griswold just
>do the Nazi salute because their triceps don't get a good
>enough workout during the course of their regular daily routines?
>Fat chance, indeed.

>---begin quoted message from finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca---

>It seems that the accusation and the inference that Mr. Whitaker is 
>allied, attached, or somehow equivalent to "nazis" has indeed been used 
>as an argument against him.


"Lends substance to"????  Mr. Whitaker's allegation, not thesis, is that
he has been called a Nazi who wants to kill six million Jews by the "clones"
on this newsgroup, including me.  I really don't think so, Mr. Strom.  
If you can pull up one where I actually call Mr. Whitaker a Nazi, or a 
neo-Nazi, that I  will concede the point.  But you can't, because I haven't.
I told him that he was buddying up with a Nazi (Les Griswold), and
on reflection, neo-Nazi would have been a far more accurate descriptor in
the case.  I actually thought that he might care about that.  He doesn't
care who he buddies up to, or what their ideas consist of, just what
labels people use to describe them.  George Graves was like that too.
Didn't bother him one whit that the content of his ideas was an exact
parallel with Nazi ideology, but it really upset him to be called a
Nazi.  That strikes me as really superficial, you know.




"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Fri Sep 20 09:44:38 PDT 1996
Article: 67049 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci3!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
Date: 19 Sep 1996 14:26:18 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <51rl6a$8k6@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:43899 alt.revisionism:67049 alt.politics.nationalism.white:30298

Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <51p76e$b6r@gyda.ifi.uio.no>, christop@ifi.uio.no says...

[...]

>>So where does the geographical boundry between "white" and "non-white" go in
>>Europe?

>Why does there have to be a geographical boundary?  That's the fallacy of
>modern anthropologists.  If you in greater Europe then your Caucasian.
                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Isn't that putting a geographic boundary around the group, "Caucasian"?

[...]

>Ethiopians don't have fat lips.  According to geographical boundaries
>they are Negro.

Now you are putting geographical boundaries around the group "Negro".
But you said that defining "race" in terms of geographic boundaries 
is a fallacy, "Mr. Stone".

[...]

>>> >But does this identification rely on the "development of the frontal lobes and
>>> >wrinkling of the outer brain"? Or rather on skull shape due to ethnic
>>> >variations?

>>> It is probably a combination of both.

>>Could you provide some evidence of this?

>At the present, no.

Then why should anyone accept is as anything more than a product of your fevered,
racist imagination, "Mr. Stone"?


[...]
>>> >>  And do explain how the Australian Aborigine
>>> >> managed to get to Australia in your African theory/"proof."

>>> >Have you ever heard of boats?

>>> Have you ever heard of Australian Aborigines?

>>What is that supposed to mean? And you didn't answer my question.

>As to its meaning, I am not surprised to find you can't comprehend it.  And
>yes, it does answer the question.

No, it doesn't, "Mr. Stone".


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Sep 21 10:58:25 PDT 1996
Article: 44058 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Another free-speech debate (was Ken Mcvay...)
Date: 20 Sep 1996 16:11:42 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <51m9gu$437@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

[...]

>>You just can't admit error, can you "Mr. Stone"?  You asked a series
>>of questions about the Holocaust that were based on false claims about
>>what mainstream historians have said about it.  Period.  The "obvious
>>flaws" are in your understanding of the history of the Holocaust.

>In other words the "holocaust" had no time limit, it happened over an
>indefinite period of time and of course people just died all over the
>place without reference to an approximate number.  Yes, I asked the
>wrong questions when the "holocaust" is such a vague entity. I wonder
>how you anti-revisionist comrades support you.

If you are defining the Holocaust only as the exterminations by gassing
in death camps, as Holocaust-deniers seem to do, you are in fact
demonstrating my earlier point - you don't know enough about the
history of the Holocaust to ask meaningful questions about it.
Thank you for helping me make my point, "Mr. Stone".  That was a
very generous gesture on your part.

[...]

>>>I would never say any modern anthropologist would classify a Caucasoid as
>>>dolichocephalic.  I might venture to say some modern anthropologists may
>>>classify the Nordic section as being dolichocephalic.  

>>"might venture to say".....  Well, that sounds like prevarication if
>>I ever heard it.  So your list of definitive traits for "Whites" is
>>based on what some anthropologist, at some point in the last century
>>or so, "might [have] venture[d] to say"???  

>Most modern anthropologists aren't interested in race, right or wrong?
>The will debunk any notion of race to keep the paycheck coming, right or
>wrong?

Why don't you answer my question, "Mr. Stone"?  I'll venture to answer
your first one.  Having allegedly read Jonathon Marks' book, I thought you 
might have an answer yourself for it.  The research of the last few decades, 
together with theory from population genetics generally, has shown that the 
meaningful units of analysis for evolutionary study are populations.  The 
development of new techniques that have actually made population *genetics*
studies of humans possible, like gel electrophoresis, have had a radical
impact on the study of human variation, which had previously focused on
the physical traits observable and somewhat more subjectively measurable
through things like craniometry.  If truth is in the genes, then the
genetics results have not to date supported the rigid view of human 
variation that "racialist studies" did.  In addition, human variation is of 
interest from an evolutionary perspective.  Populations are the appropriate
units of analysis in population genetics, and "races" are *not* their
analytical or evolutionary equivalent, no matter how much you want them
to be.
 

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Sat Sep 21 16:17:19 PDT 1996
Article: 44065 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: "PROVE THIS, OR WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO GENOCIDE"
Date: 20 Sep 1996 18:29:34 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <51unqe$rg8@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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christop@ifi.uio.no (Christopher Henrik Lund) wrote:

[...]

>Maybe we should make a "Whitaker phrase list", and give a point for each
>well-known phrase one manages to draw out of him with a single posting. My
>previous post would have gotten me only a lousy one point (for the "clone"
>bit).

Great idea.  We can call them "Whitacisms", and whoever gets the most
each wheek whins whone entire wheek of freedom from reading or responding
to Mr. Whitaker's whining, incessant, and utterless whitless drivel.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Sep 23 21:41:18 PDT 1996
Article: 44422 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Ancient America (thread II) (was: White MEN ...)
Date: 23 Sep 1996 13:57:49 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 94
Message-ID: <52650t$58k@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <51p862$k9p@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

>>Hey, "Mr. Stone", why do you think that all the iconography at ancient Maya
>>sites portrays people whose profiles look just like those of folks walking
>>around the the Yucatan today?  Or do you think that's just an odd coincidence?

>I have seen profiles of the Mayan people that correspond to White and
>Semitic types as well (read: Vanished Civilizations -- a huge coffee table
>book full of colour pictures).

So why do you think it is that modern Maya languages don't show any trace
whatsoever of Old World "admixture", "Mr. Stone"?  Doesn't that strike you
as odd?  Wouldn't you think that is someone appeared from nowhere with 
newfangled things like "pyramids", "states", "agriculture" and all that,
that the words for these things would probably be borrowed from the language
of the donor?  That seems to be what happens nowadays with when technological
or other innovations are adopted by folks speaking different languages.

>>>>> How did civilisation come to be with hunter-gatherers being alongside
>>>>> cultivators?

>>>>Is there any reason why it shouldn't?

>>>Please think about the logistics.

>>Well, I'm stumped.  What is it about the "logistics" that renders this 
>>impossible, in your opinion, "Mr. Stone"?  Funny that.  It happened in
>>Mexico.  The Valley of Mexico, where Teotihuacan grew to cover 23 square
>>kilometres, had a population of at least 150,000, and built the biggest
>>masonry pyramid (yes, a pyramid - bigger at the bottom and smaller at
>>the top) in the western hemisphere.  Just to the north of the Valley,
>>the climate gets much drier, and it gets hotter too as you go north.
>>Lots of hunter-gatherers until European conquest.

>Well I claim, using Thor Heyerdahl and a few others like Barry Fell,
>that other peoples (Whites) came and helped civilise America.  Do you 
>remember the Phoenician quote?  According to Dr./Mrs. S.M. Temms 
>(Univerisity of Auckland) there is a thought of Phoenician interaction
>with America amongst established Phoenician Historians.  BTW, her area of
>expertise is this area, not like you.

Barry Fell's "evidence", if I recall, is found in the northern United 
States.  Teotihuacan is a couple thousand kilometres to the south.
Temms' area of expertise is New World civilisations?  What is Barry Fell's
area of expertise, "Mr. Stone"?

Could you outline for us the similarities between ancient Maya writing,
both structural and substantive, that support the idea that Phoenicians
civilised folks in the New World?  And could you explain why the ancient
Maya calendar was actually more accurate than any calendar in use at the
same time in the Old World, and how this is consistent with the idea of
Phoenicians civilising New World people?  Oh, and while you're at it,
what about those "overwhelming similarities" between Old World and New
World pyramids, "Mr. Stone"?  I mean, other than the fact that both are
bigger at the bottom and smaller at the top, of course.

>>>>>  And, why did civilisation come quickly?

>>>>Is there any reason why it shouldn't?

>>>Please think about the logistics.

>>Did it come quickly?  In the New World, permanent settlements had emerged
>>in Mexico by at least 3500 years ago, and the first writing dates to at
>>least 2500 years ago.  (Note that that is a 1000 year lag).  Big urban
>>centres emerged around 2000 years ago.  Public architecture was being
>>built by at about 3000 years ago.  Depending on time scales, of course,
>>it seems to me that the "elements of civilisation" over a pretty long
>>period of time.

>Well if Whites made it, it explains it.  My logistics statement has not
>been refuted.  Strangely enough I back Thor Heyerdahl on Whites been in
>America.  For me to believe otherwise then I will have to see Thor
>Heyerdahl disproved.

Are you now saying that it *didn't* come quickly (which was the point I
was trying to make with the dates I cited), and that too can be explained
by "whites" being responsible for it?

Just because "Whites" could have been in the western hemisphere does not
constitute evidence that they were, "Mr. Stone", anymore than the idea that
extraterrestrials "could have" visited the earth constitutes evidence that
they have done so.  Nor in either case would evidence to support a
minimal presence constitute evidence that all change and development flowed 
>from  that.  If it did, one would like then want to suggest that the Aztec
and Inka empires were the product of Norse incursions in eastern North
America.  I don't think so.  


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Sep 23 23:07:32 PDT 1996
Article: 68195 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.mid.net!news.sdsmt.edu!news.wildstar.net!newsfeed.telalink.net!telalink!news.nashville.org!cpk-news-feed1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-feed2.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!csn!nntp-xfer-1.csn.net!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
Date: 23 Sep 1996 14:09:12 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <523qlu$ksr@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

[...]

>>>>>Anthropologists have classified race into geographical entities.  Please
>>>>>note this.  Hopefully your "professor" brain has the capacity to input 
>>>>>data.

>>Yes.  Anthropologists classify human populations into geographically-
>>bounded entities.  Do you have any idea why that is the case?  Do you
>>know how population geneticists, population biologists and ecologists
>>identify and delimit subdivisions of single species, "Mr. Stone"?

>Convenience I suspect or being simplistic-- 1st question.

No, you are off by a long shot, and until you understand the answer to 
this question, you'll never understand why population geneticists use
populations as their units of analysis, and why populations are useful
for answering evolutionary questions while larger aggregations of
groups may or may not be.

>Only vaguely as they change their minds on a regular basis -- 2nd question.

No.  You really don't understand why geography (two-dimensional space,
in a sense) is significant, do you.  The answer has to do with reproductive 
"spheres", "Mr. Stone", which are an essential component of populations.


[...]

>I was asked why there might be differences, 1st point.  And, I gave you
>a reference a while back: "Morris' Dictionary of Human Anatomy" to which
>your excuse was your fabulous Uni library didn't have it.  While I haven't
>given you the ISBN number and etc., that is because I don't have it on
>hand.

Just days ago you offered the excuse, when challenged to support your
claims about Cavalli-Sforza's data, that someone has "The History and
Geography of Human Genes" on permanent loan.  The fact that my library
doesn't have this book makes me suspicious, "Mr. Stone".  I also looked
it up in Books In Print, and it seems that it is no longer in print.
Just when was it published?

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Tue Sep 24 09:23:38 PDT 1996
Article: 44454 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Ancient America (was: White MEN ...)
Date: 23 Sep 1996 15:35:32 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 97
Message-ID: <526ao4$cdu@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <523sck$ksr@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

[...]

>>I'll try asking the question again, "Mr. Stone".  Don't forget that this is
>>one of the lynchpins in the arguments of those who claim that New World
>>civilisations were the product of European minds.  Aside from the rather
>>obvious fact that both Old World and New World pyramids are bigger at the
>>bottom and smaller at the top, what are the so-called "overwhelming
>>similarities" that lead the author of Fingerprints of the Gods and others 
>>to argue that the presence of pyramids in both hemispheres is a product 
>>of transoceanic travel thousands of years ago between the New World and
>>the Middle East?  And, of course, for you to accept these arguments,
>>"Mr. Stone", since it seems that you do.

>Here is an extremely rough attempt (I don't have the book on hand):

>Both the 3rd Dynasty of Egypt and the Mesoamerican civilisation have
>stepped pyramids.  Both are believed to be religious complexes to the Sun.

Hmmm, well it is true that Mesoamerican pyramids had steps, and were intended
to be climbed (by at least some people).  But this was not a feature of
Egyptian pyramids.  The construction in both cases is roughly "stepped" 
because rectangular stone blocks were used to create a pyramidal shape.
Whoopee.  And the "sun" played a central role in the religions of all
kinds of peoples, including ones without pyramids, such as the Inka.
Given the prominence of the sun in the sky and its obvious importance
in sustaining life, I hardly find its widespread worship as a deity
surprising.

Another difference is that most Mesoamerican pyramids have what is called
"talud/tablero" construction - the sides are broken into alternating
segments, some of which are sloped and some of which are flat, so you
get these sort of little platforms on the way up.

>The pyramid at Teotihuacan, for example, has an avenue of the dead, whereas 
>the Egyptians had their city of the dead.

The Aztecs called the major north-south thoroughfare running through
Teotihuacan's civic-ceremonial core "Miccaotli", which means "street of
the dead" in their language, but we don't know what the Teotihuacanos
themselves called it.
Ironically, it looks like the only "royal tomb" at Teotihuacan in a 
pyramid was not in the big "Pyramid of the Sun" but in a much smaller
structure located in the Great Compound a couple of kilometres to the
south along the street of the dead.  I believe this has been written
up recently in National Geographic.
A major difference between the Egyptian and Teotihuacan cases in this
regard is that the Teotihuacan pyramids are found within a civic-
ceremonial and elite residential area of an urban metropolis (one with
a population of at least 150,000 at the city's height).  This is in
no way comparable to the Egyptian "city of the dead", in which the
pyramids, constructed solely to serve as tombs for dead kings, were
built well away from urban centres.
  
>Both were tombs and only for
>important people (rulers and their lackeys).  Both were heavily into
>serpents -- the feathered serpent of Mesoamerican infamy, and you also
>can witness winged serpents in Egypt, inside their mortuary complexes.
>Both were centres of religion.  I believe they are also supposed to use the 
>same angle in construction for their respective STEPPED pyramids.

Well, burial and religion do tend to go hand in hand.  The "angle of
construction" for Egyptian pyramids and Teotihuacan's pyramid of
the sun may be similar, or even identical.  However, Teotihuacan's
big pyramids (the moon pyramid is also interesting) are unusual in
Mesoamerica.  Maya pyramids are very different in overall shape,
tending to be tall but, well, sort of skinny (much lower top area/
base area ratio).

>With the exception of the "I believe..." sentence the details for the
>Mesoamerican pyramids are in the Encyclopedia Brtiannica vol.26, p.4-25.
>The details of Egyptian pyramids should be common knowledge.

Did you know that the Egyptian pyramids were "one-shot wonders" -
constructed in a single stage, and for one-time use only?  But that
Mesoamerican pyramids underwent successive enlargements and modifications
over periods of generations or even centuries?
>
>As a passing comment, the Mayan Kukulcan and the Aztec Queztecoatl was
>also the feathered serpent.  Them both being famous of the White God-king
>of Mesoamerican civilisation.

Quetzalcoatl is described by some Aztec specialists as a "hero-god" rather
than as a "god-king".  I've seen him described as having "pale skin" and a
"beard", but not as "white".  But he is a mythological figure, and whether
there ever was a historical character or not is really unclear.  And
Kukulkan is a feature in Maya iconography only in the very latest part of
the Classic period and the beginning of the Postclassic, i.e., after the
big decline of the jungle centres so often featured in videos about the
Maya and, interestingly enough, after Teotihuacan's decline, too.  

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Tue Sep 24 09:23:40 PDT 1996
Article: 44486 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: BOSNIA AND THE MIXERS
Date: 23 Sep 1996 19:04:18 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <526mvi$s36@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Bob Whitaker  wrote:

[...]

>   I spent some years in academe and as minority oversight on the United
>States House of Representatives Education and Labor Committes staff.  
>Yes, I know they don't teach Stalin and they do teach Hitler.
>   The facvt that it is mentioned in your precious media does not mean
>the same as its being taught in the pub;lic schools.

Ah, it sounds like the real gripe here is that Holocaust education/
awareness or whatever you call it down there in gringolandia is taught
in public schools but other horrors are not.  Well, not having grown
up with or had any direct experience with the US public education system
below the university level, there isn't much I can say on this except:
(1) I heard a CBC radio programme some months ago where some folks were
discussing broadening the scope of the Holocaust programme to genocides
generally, and someone had a proposal to include discussion of the Irish
potato famine (I think this was somewhere in the northeast - Pennsylvania,
maybe? or New York?), and (2) since it is my impression that no history
except American history is taught in American schools, there are some
structural limitations.  Or am I wrong about that?  In Canada, European
history is taught in high school, and university courses on 20th
century European history and politics commonly address the Stalinist purges
and slaughters.  When the Soviet Union invaded Czechoslovakia, high schools
in Saskatchewan brought refugees in to talk to history classes.  Sorry y'all
are so insular down there.

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Tue Sep 24 15:19:34 PDT 1996
Article: 68403 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
Date: 24 Sep 1996 16:34:23 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 19
Message-ID: <5292if$t7f@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

>Perhaps you could explain the almost dead discussion in science over
>racial differences from the mid 80s to now?  The only books you'll
>discover are books concerned with social implications.

>Why the drop off?

There is LOTS of recent literature on human variation, "Mr. Stone".
So it is not really accurate to say that no one is studying human
biology and human variation anymore.  Try looking at some journals,
like the American Journal of Physical Anthropology.

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Tue Sep 24 16:40:15 PDT 1996
Article: 44526 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: William Pierce: Hate for Profit
Date: 24 Sep 1996 17:45:37 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <5296o1$5mv@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Bob Whitaker  wrote:

[...]

>     Whoever came up with "Hate for Profit" saying is late in the game. 
>"Hate Radio" has alsready been taken up to attack conservatives.  In
>fact, the word "Hate" is as overused as the word.
       ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Huh?

>     Then agaqin, who every got the slightest originality out a clone?  
>     That's why they're clones.

This is rich.  Mr. Whitaker is calling Milton Kleim a "clone", and saying
that he's late in the game!!  This is most interesting indeed, since it
broadens Mr. Whitaker's category of unacceptably PC ideologies to include
avowed racists who have merely ceased to advocate violence.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep 25 08:23:03 PDT 1996
Article: 44563 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: White MEN created everything (II)
Date: 24 Sep 1996 12:50:46 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 62
Message-ID: <528lf6$bsm@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
References: <51qqgs$7tf@lex.zippo.com> <51v1n6$mp8@maud.ifi.uio.no> <51vmls$qb7@lex.zippo.com> <52368m$f2k@gyda.ifi.uio.no> <524k4n$7ns@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <525ikj$7h5@lex.zippo.com>
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <524k4n$7ns@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

[...]

>>>> Also please note these Aztec words:
 
>>>> Azt: White.
>>>> Ec: People.
 
>>>> Aztec means ..... ......

>>"people from Aztlán", and "Aztlán" means "place of the reeds"

A correction:  "Aztlán" means "place of the herons", not "place of
the reeds", as I said earlier.
"Tollán", the sacred city that the Aztecs associated themselves with
in their mythology means "place of the reeds".  My apology.
References: F.F. Berdan, "The Aztecs of Central Mexico: An Imperial
Society".  Prentice Hall. p.3; R.F. Townsend, "The Aztecs".  Thames
and Hudson, p. 46, p.54-56.

See also Rémi Siméon, "Diccionario de la Lengua Nahuatl o Mexicano",
Siglo Veintiuno, p.51, where the following definitions are given:

"azteca - s.pl.Aztecas que salieron de Aztlan en el siglo XI para 
establecerse más tarde en el Anahuac"

and

"Aztlan - lugar ocupado por los aztecas en sus orígenes, cuyo 
emplazamiento, objeto de numerosas búsquedas, sigue ignorado..."

I would offer to translate these from the Spanish for you, but I
doubt that you would trust my translation.

In Nahuatl, the suffix "tec/teco/teca" means "people of/from".  A
couple of examples:  people from Cholula are "Cholutecas", people from
Tollan are "Toltecas".
Similarly, the suffix "[t]lan" means "place of".
Ethnic group names virtually all refer to places, rather than being
descriptors of "physical" characteristics of the people.

>None of my establishment books gives that meaning for Aztlan, a citation is
>in order, "Finsten."

I trust you'll share the reference that led you to imply that Aztec
means "white people".  

>>In Nahuatl, the language spoken by the Aztecs, "ixt/itz" means "white".
>>Two examples:  the first emperor of the Triple Alliance was Itzcoatl,
>>which means "white snake".  And one of the permanently snowcapped
>>volcanoes to the east of the Valley of Mexico, where the Aztec capital
>>city of Tenochtitlán was located, is still today called "Ixtaccihuatl",
>>which means "white woman".  It sort of looks like a reclining woman
>>and, because it is covered in snow, is white.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Wed Sep 25 14:29:05 PDT 1996
Article: 44656 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!xara.net!emerald.xara.net!news.thenet.net!uunet!in1.uu.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Ancient America (thread II) (was: White MEN ...)
Date: 24 Sep 1996 16:54:22 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <5293nu$t7f@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <52650t$58k@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

[...]

>>Are you now saying that it *didn't* come quickly (which was the point I
>>was trying to make with the dates I cited), and that too can be explained
>>by "whites" being responsible for it?

>Outside influence.

But what does that mean?  Seriously?

>>Just because "Whites" could have been in the western hemisphere does not
>>constitute evidence that they were, "Mr. Stone", anymore than the idea that
>>extraterrestrials "could have" visited the earth constitutes evidence that
>>they have done so.  Nor in either case would evidence to support a
>>minimal presence constitute evidence that all change and development flowed 
>>from that.  If it did, one would like then want to suggest that the Aztec
>>and Inka empires were the product of Norse incursions in eastern North
>>America.  I don't think so.  

>I'm afraid both Barry Fell and Thor Heyerdahl timescales are well before
>the Vikings.  I suggest you read some of Heyerdahl's works.

I read Kon Tiki many years ago.  I've also read America B.C., or whatever it
is called.

Just because a raft could have made it across the Atlantic, with a person
or two alive on board, doesn't mean that it happened.  There is no good 
evidence that such an event did happen.  But even if it had, just because
a couple of people washed up somewhere on the eastern shore of the western
hemisphere, it does not follow that they would have or did have a 
significant impact on social, cultural and other developments in the New
World.  I know that Fell and Heyerdahl are talking about alleged "events"
well before the era of Norse expansion to Iceland and Greenland.  My point
is that their "arguments" are no better than the speculations of von Daniken,
and only very marginally more credible than his.  Can they explain the
structural characteristics of Maya (and other Mesoamerican) writing systems,
and why they are so different from Phoenician writing?  Can they explain
why the Maya calendar was more accurate than contemporary Old World
calendars?    



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Fri Sep 27 00:54:31 PDT 1996
Article: 69205 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: William Pierce: Hate for Profit
Date: 26 Sep 1996 20:55:38 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 24
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Ursus@sure.net (Ursus Major) wrote:
>Laura Finsten  wrote:

>*This is rich.  Mr. Whitaker is calling Milton Kleim a "clone", and saying
>*that he's late in the game!!  This is most interesting indeed, since it
>*broadens Mr. Whitaker's category of unacceptably PC ideologies to include
>*avowed racists who have merely ceased to advocate violence.

>I never cease to be amazed by those who claim a 2,500-year-old plus
>compendium of mythology consititutes a tribal Grant Deed to a scub of
>the Levant--and the right to evict squatters. When it comes to racism,
>the Zionist make the Nazis look like oafs (which many of them were).


Interesting, Mr. Bear.  What leads you to imply that I am a Zionist?
Or are you insulting Mr. Whitaker now by calling him a Zionist?  Please
don't get him going on another of his tirades.  Well, on second thought,
it would be a slight change of tune.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Fri Sep 27 10:30:47 PDT 1996
Article: 44823 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: THE CLONES USED TO SCREAM "COMMIT", NOW THEY SCREAM "NAZI'
Date: 26 Sep 1996 12:50:29 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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What "establishment ideas" were the "scientific truths" of the late
nineteenth century and the first decades of this century in line with,
Mr. Whitaker?  Or did this convergence just erupt in the last couple
of decades?


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Fri Sep 27 17:23:25 PDT 1996
Article: 44894 of alt.politics.white-power
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-peer.sprintlink.net!cs.utexas.edu!utnut!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Strom's "Evidence" of Whitaker's Tribulations
Date: 26 Sep 1996 19:26:08 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 78
Message-ID: <52elcg$jr0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Kevin Alfred Strom  wrote:
>Laura Finsten wrote:
 
>> Great, Mr. Strom.  Now you and Mr. Whitaker are going to hold me
>> responsible for the post of someone I don't recall ever having seen
>> post here before?  Hardly sporting.


>I became tired of the sophisticated evasions of Mr. Whitaker's point, so 
>I posted copies of several messages, including one of yours, in which the 
>smear word "nazi" was used or clearly implied in referring to Mr. 
>Whitaker. I never said that you bore responsibility for any words but 
>your own.

It is interesting, isn't it, how our different views of the world extend
to the ways in which we read fairly simple collections of words on a 
screen.  I told Mr. Whitaker that he was cosying up to a Nazi.  I hadn't 
seen him post much here before and thought that perhaps he was unaware that
he was latching on to someone who bought Holocaust denial lock, stock,
and barrel (but wished it had been true), who promoted eugenics programmes
to "purify" his race just as the NSDAP had done, etc etc etc.  I suppose
if the word appears in the same post, you will interpret this as 
"implying" that Mr. Whitaker himself is a Nazi.  I don't read it that way,
and I didn't intend it to be read that way.  But Mr. Whitaker is far
more concerned about his perceived martyrdom than anything else, so I
am hardly surprised.  He has the most astonishing "interpretive skills",
really.  Gives a whole new meaning to the concept of postmodernism.  He
actually called Milton Kleim a clone!!

>Just for fun, here's another one, in which you imply what you have stated 
>more explicitly elsewhere, that Les Griswold is a "nazi." Your message 
>also clearly implies that Mr. Griswold is Mr. Whitaker's "fuhrer."

I'm not arguing with you or anybody else about what I called Leslie
Griswold, Mr. Strom.    

>In message , Laura Finsten 
>states to Bob Whitaker:
>....
>> While you're at it (since your Unterfartenfuhrer Griswold
>> doesn't seem to want to answer the question), can you get back
>> to the stuff about "stable genotypes"?  Populations of sexually
>> reproducing, multicelled organisms don't have genotypes.  Individuals
>> do, but populations don't....

>The messages I have quoted in this thread tend to confirm Mr. Whitaker's 
>thesis.

I'm not arguing with you or anybody else about what I called Leslie 
Griswold.  I was using one of my silly titles for Griswold.  Actually,
>from  my *extremely* limited knowledge of German, I think that whether
Griswold was Mr. Whitaker's "führer" or not would depend on what title
Mr. Whitaker had.  Since he didn't have one, there is no implied
relationship in that sense.  Funny, isn't it, that if any non-racists
agree with one another about something, Mr. Whitaker has no compunction
whatsoever about calling us all "clones".  And I have yet to see any of
the regular "racist" posters criticise him for this.  But if Mr. Whitaker 
dives into a eugencist argument that is clearly racist and political,
and that he doesn't know enough biology to even understand, anyone who
assumes until corrected that he is buddying up with the neo-Nazi
proponent of the argument is doing him a near-criminal injustice.  Am I
the only one here who sees this as somewhat hypocritical?  And who thinks
that this is nothing more than a game Mr. Whitaker is playing to portray
himself as a victim?  And who suspects that he is merely using this as
one of several tactics to divert discussion away from real issues? 

I'd still like an answer to the question about "stable genotypes".


>Wonderful world,

It is certainly an interesting one. 


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Fri Sep 27 19:17:31 PDT 1996
Article: 69487 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: William Pierce: Hate for Profit
Date: 27 Sep 1996 19:32:10 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <52ha3q$n0d@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Ursus@sure.net (Ursus Major) wrote:

[...]

>	The comment was made to the content of the thread as a whole, not
>as to your particular post. The issue seems to center about the shib-
>boleth word, "racisism." As I recall, the UNO labelled >apartheid< and
>Zionism as "racist<, whereupon So. Africa committed suicide. I don't
>think Israel is going to follow Pretoria's example. Do you?

I thought this thread was about William Pierce selling his violently
racist novel and other goodies to make money.

On the future of Israel, I'd rather not comment.  I can't see the future.
Whatever, it ain't likely to be pretty in the part of the world.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Fri Sep 27 19:17:32 PDT 1996
Article: 69490 of alt.revisionism
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
Date: 27 Sep 1996 19:09:49 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <52h8pt$n0d@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Ourobouros wrote:
>In article <52b8l1$l79@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...


[...]

>>>  It is a reasonable conclusion that they do not
>>>want to discovery racial differences anymore.

>>You know, "Mr. Stone", I don't think you could find a single physical
>>anthropology book that puts forward the idea that there *aren't* differences
>>among humans in the alleles related to melanin content in the skin.  The
>>quotation I used indicated that we don't know yet how many loci are directly
>>related to this, nor do we know how many alleles there are.  Many have
>>suggested four loci.  We don't know for sure.  When the Human Genome Project
>>is complete, we'll know.


[...]

>It doesn't explain the furor over books that promote racial differences.

No, it doesn't.  That generally arises from lousy methodology including,
among other things, a reliance on *socially identified* groups which are
*assumed* to have a meaningful biological basis.  

>Shouldn't the Human Genome Project have long since being completed?

Who am I to say?  The project hasn't been going on that long.  It was
dependent on the development of technology and methods that make it 
possible to indentify individual genes, their precise positions on
chromosomes, and their base-sequences.  This is a huge undertaking,
when you think about the enormity of the task - something like 100,000
genes.  It is costing megabucks and will take years to complete.

>>Meantime, the gene for diabetes has been located, a gene that is related 
>>to breast cancer, another to colon cancer, and more have been located.
>>Hmmmmmm.  Why do you think that there might be a greater sense of urgency
>>about those than there is about melanin content and skin colour?  Why do
>>you think that there might be a lot more money for *medical research* in 
>>genetics than there is for anthropological research in genetics?

>If we can locate a diabetes gene then we can surely locate the genes 
>responsible for skin colour, skull shape and the rest.

I didn't say we couldn't.  I said that money and effort for identifying
specific genes tend to be targeted at those that have immediacy in the
realm of health care and medicine.  

>Perhaps they can discover the skin cancer gene(s) alongside finding the
>genes responsible for skin colour.  Afterall, we whites do suffer from it.

It is probably mutation in the gene(s) that control melanin content (and
hence skin colour) that results in skin cancer.  I gather that skin cancer
hasn't been targeted the way other cancers have because it is considered
to be nearly 100 percent environmental - overexposure to the sun.  The 
easiest and surest cure is prevention.
  
>I understand too well how scientists pander to tune of the almighty
>dollar.  

My wasn't that an astute and insightful comment.


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Sep 30 17:05:09 PDT 1996
Article: 70361 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.structured.net!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ourobouros' sample definition of the White race
Date: 30 Sep 1996 13:07:18 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Mr. Whitaker, if you were right, there would be no Human Genome
Project.

After reading Whitewolf's letter of resignation, I started thinking
about your contribution to white supremacist/separatist causes.
I'm beginning to think that you are actually a non-racist plant,
whose role is to show the intellectual poverty of racism.   

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Sep 30 17:05:10 PDT 1996
Article: 70362 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news-peer.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsstand.cit.cornell.edu!news.acsu.buffalo.edu!news.drenet.dnd.ca!crc-news.doc.ca!nott!hone!informer1.cis.McMaster.CA!usenet
From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Subject: Re: Oroborous draws a bead on his foot...
Date: 30 Sep 1996 13:03:53 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:45297 alt.revisionism:70362 alt.politics.nationalism.white:31795

From: Ourobouros


In article <52g83o$l3c@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura says...

>Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

>>Considering that the point of McVay in specially marking said post was
>>for a supposed fabrication of C-S.  "Finsten" claims that I said C-S
>>makes mention of a White race, which is totally false.

>I made no such claim, "Mr. Stone".  I called you on the carpet for this
>statement:

>     At some point in the future genetic distance maps visibly 
>     demonstrating the White gene pool, as has been vaguely done
>     by Cavalli-Sforza and his team in "History and Geography of
>     Human Genes", 1994.  For a person to be White they will have
>     to be within the appropriate area. [reproduced from the
>     offending Nizkor file]

"Mr. Stone" now whines:

+So this reply (of yours) is a figment of everybody's imagination? :

+  By the way, Cavalli-Sforza et al. have *not* identified, delimited or 
+  even *mentioned* a "White gene pool" in "The History and Geography of
+  Human Genes".  "White" does not appear in the index of this book,
+  which I have sitting right before me (Santa did indeed come early
+  this year).  Or would you care to direct me to a specific page or 
+  quotation? 

+These statements "...have *not* identified, delimited or even *mentioned* 
+a 'White gene pool'... 'White' does not appear in the index of this book
+..." all imply the opposite of your claim.  If anything the offending file
+should be called "finsten-fabricates" but McVay couldn't have that could
+he?



    Pardon me?  Exactly how do the statements of mine you cite above imply
    the opposite of my earlier claim?  You were attributing something to
    these researchers that they have *not* done.  Cavalli-Sforza et al. have
    *not* produced "genetic distance maps visibly demonstrating the White  
    gene pool", as you put it. Period.  I will discuss your "interpretation"
    of their data in more detail below.  You were attempting to garner
    credibility for your definition of the "White race" by implying
    that their work supports your ideas.  Whether you now say that this
    "support" is inadvertent on their part is irrelevant.  Whether you now
    say that this reference to their work was not intended to mislead is
    irrelevant.  The result is fabrication and misrepresentation by you. 
    I in fact suggested that it was as likely to have arisen from your
    poor understanding of their research as anything else.  

>You imply in this statement that Cavalli-Sforza et al. have visibly
>demonstrated the existence and/or spatial distribution of "the
>White gene pool", if vaguely.  They have done no such thing, vaguely
>or clearly.  You, and you alone, are inferring the presence of an
>identifiable "White gene pool" in a limited part of Europe, based
>on a faulty understanding of their methodology and data.  What
>percentage of the variation does the PC map you like so much account
>for, "Mr. Stone"?  How do you explain the fact that more variation is
>accounted for by other principal components that show quite different
>geographic distributions?

+On p.269, fig. 5.5.2 is a two dimensional graph, no?

+Around England, Germany et al. is a seperation from *non-white* 
+populations.  C-S uses no such words as "white" or "non-white" just in
+case you or Judd decide to try this stunt again.  It is vague because it

    You are absolutely right that they use no such language.  They
    talk about northern, central and southern European populations.
    Exactly which ones are you saying are "white" and "non-white",
    "Mr. Stone"?  Only the northern European populations?  This
    label, of course, comes from geographic position, not genetic
    relatedness.  Genetic relatedness is somewhat more complex,
    as I'm sure you noticed, even if you chose not to mention it. 

+is concerned with geographical entities and I therefore only use to
+demonstrate that distance from non-whites is feasible via genetics.  I
+don't consider it the be-all and end-all.

    Well I'm really glad to see that you don't see genetics as the "be-all
    and end-all", "Mr. Stone".  Gosh, why would anything in population
    genetics be concerned with "geographical entities"?  It couldn't 
    possibly have anything to do with the fact that *populations* are
    geographical entities, could it?

    Did you notice that this principal-component map places Finns
    as outliers to the remaining European populations?  They are
    quite literally off the map.  Are you prepared to abandon Finns
    as members of the "White race", "Mr. Stone"?  And what of
    the French, Belgians, and Austrians?  Interesting, isn't it,
    how Austrians are farther removed from northern Europeans
    than are the Portuguese, whom you have been calling "half black/
    half white halfbreeds" for months.  In order to include Austrians
    in the "White race", you'll have to take the Portuguese too.
    And it seems that it would be very difficult to justify excluding
    Poles unless you also exclude Belgians and French.  Or to include
    Czechs unless you also include Spaniards.
 
    Please do explain in what way this constitutes a "vague" delineation
    of your "White race", "Mr. Stone".
    


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Sep 30 18:27:15 PDT 1996
Article: 45307 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Anne Rice, Clones and Bigots
Date: 30 Sep 1996 13:36:52 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Message-ID: <52oidk$35f@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Bob Whitaker  wrote:

[...]

>   To repeat: you clones are now outside of an environment you control,
>eg, the universities and the media.  You have got to get organized!
>   The clone line now is that everything I say is pure repetition.  Youa
>re saying I am two different people saying different things.
>   Don't use Doublethink where you can be called on it.

Perhaps you're a little out of your element, as well, Mr. Whitaker.
It seems that kneejerk pat replies have worked for you in the past,
and no one has called you on the obvious fact that your responses
are utterly devoid of content (see virtually everything you have
posted) and reveal that you don't read what posters challenging you
say or put it into the context of the thread in which it is 
posted (see your recent labelling of Milton Kleim, an avowed racist
whose only change has been to resign from the National Alliance and
speak out against the legitimacy of violent means to achieve White
supremacist/separatist ends, as a "clone").


"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Sep 30 20:47:30 PDT 1996
Article: 45326 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Replying to the whiner (was: Hey, ...
Date: 30 Sep 1996 15:11:08 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
Lines: 18
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Ourobouros wrote:


>Otherwise the Welsh already meet my sample definition.  As do the Scots,
>Dutch, and so forth.
 ^^^^^

Not according to the principal component map in Cavalli-Sforza et al.
that you were harping on in another thread, "Mr. Stone", unless you
are including central Europeans, and that includes the Spanish,
Portuguese, Czechoslovaks, Poles, and Russians.



"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman




From finsten@mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca Mon Sep 30 23:29:39 PDT 1996
Article: 45345 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: Laura Finsten 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Ourobouros' disappearing definition of the "White" race (was: White MEN created everything (II) [long])
Date: 30 Sep 1996 13:10:11 GMT
Organization: McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada (NewServer)
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Ourobouros wrote:

[...]

>The only comment I going to make on the snipped section is that the said
>list is to be taken as a whole, not as individual parts.

Then please do explain to us how the parts function as a whole.  In other
words, are different criteria weighted differently?  Is there a hierarchy
of inclusion/exclusion and, if so, what is the ordering of the various
criteria in order to produce a "whole" defining strategy that produces
the result you wish to achieve?

"If I can't dance.....I don't want to be part of your revolution."
          Emma Goldman





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