The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Subject: Wiesel Words CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS 
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Ahmed Issawi

Minority Report | February 19, 2001 The Nation
CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS



Wiesel Words




Is there a more contemptible poseur and windbag than Elie Wiesel? I
suppose
there may be. But not, surely, a poseur and windbag who receives (and
takes
as his due) such grotesque deference on moral questions. Look, if you
will,
at his essay on Jerusalem in the New York Times of January 24.



As a Jew living in the United States, I have long denied myself the
right to
intervene in Israel's internal debates.... My critics have their
conception
of social and individual ethics; I have mine. But while I grant them
their
right to criticize, they sometimes deny mine to abstain.


Such magnificent condescension, to grant his critics the right. And it
is not
certain from when Wiesel dates his high-minded abstention from Israel's
internal affairs; he was a member of Menachem Begin's Irgun in the
1940s,
when that force employed extreme violence against Arab civilians and was
more
than ready to use it against Jews. At all events, his dubious claim
above is
only a pompous preface to discarding nonintervention in the present
because
Jerusalem is at stake, and "the fact that I do not live in Jerusalem is
secondary; Jerusalem lives within me." (Again the modesty.) There are,
sad to
say, serpents in Wiesel's internal Eden, and they too must be
patronized:


That Muslims might wish to maintain close ties with this city unlike any

other is understandable. Although its name does not appear in the Koran,

Jerusalem is the third holiest city in Islam. But for Jews, it remains
the
first. Not just the first; the only.


"Might wish." "Ties." "Understandable." "Third holiest." Even these
lordly
and dismissive gestures clearly cost Wiesel something. After all, he
announces that the city is "mentioned more than 600 times in the Bible,"

which (assuming for a moment that one ought to think like a religious
fundamentalist in the first place) would give a Christian Arab--these
being
at least 15 percent of the Palestinian population--quite a strong claim
on
the old place. (Incidentally, let me ask any reader how often the city
is
mentioned in the Torah.) But for Wiesel all Arabs are Muslims, and even
if
they happen to live in Jerusalem, this is nothing to the way that
Jerusalem
dwells within Wiesel. Indeed, it would evidently dwell more comfortably
within him if they did not live in it at all. Do I exaggerate? I don't
think
so. In a propaganda tour of recent history, he asserts that in 1948,
"incited
by their leaders, 600,000 Palestinians left the country convinced that,
once
Israel was vanquished, they would be able to return home."

This claim is a cheap lie and is known by Wiesel to be a lie. It is
furthermore an utterly discredited lie, and one that Israeli officialdom
no
longer cares to repeat. Israeli and Jewish historians have exposed it
time
and again: Every Arab broadcasting station in the region, in 1947 as
well as
1948, was monitored and recorded and transcribed by the BBC, and every
Arab
newspaper has been scoured, and not one instance of such "incitement,"
in
direct speech or reported speech, has ever come to light. The late
historian
and diplomat Erskine Childers issued an open challenge on the point as
far
back as the 1950s that was never taken up and never will be. And of
course
the lie is a Big Lie, because Expulsion-Denial lies at the root of the
entire
problem and helps poison the situation to this day. (When Israel's
negotiators gingerly discuss the right of return, at least they don't
claim
to be arguing about ghosts, or Dead Souls.)

In a brilliant reply to Wiesel published in Vesti, Israel's largest
Russian-language paper, Israel Shamir compares him rather leniently not
to
Jabotinsky but to the Knight of the Doleful Countenance and his mad
quest for
purity:


Be reasonable, old man. Stay within the frame of the story and within
the
bounds of common decency. Don Quixote did not drive his jeep into Toboso
to
rape his old flame. OK, you loved her, and thought about her, but it
does
not give you the right to kill her children, bulldoze her rose garden
and
put your boots on her dining-room table.


Shamir speaks of the beautiful city that Palestinians centuries ago
"adorned
with a magnificent piece of jewelry, the Golden Dome of Haram al-Sharif,

built their houses with pointed arches and wide porches, and planted
cypresses and palm trees." He's wasting his time on Wiesel, who says
that
Palestine was a desert before he arrived there as one of Begin's thugs,
and
who slanders the people he helped dispossess, first by falsely saying
that
they ran away from their beloved ancestral hometown and second by
disputing
their right even to feel nostalgia for it.

In 1982, after Gen. Ariel Sharon had treated the inhabitants of the
Sabra and
Shatila amps as target practice for his paid proxies, Wiesel favored us
with
another of his exercises in neutrality. Asked by the New York Times to
comment on the pogrom, he was one of the few American Jews approached on
the
matter to express zero remorse. "I don't think we should even comment,"
he
said, proceeding to comment bleatingly that he felt "sadness-- with
Israel,
and not against Israel." For the victims, not even a perfunctory word.

As I write, it looks as if the same Sharon will become Israel's prime
minister. If you recall, he occupied West Beirut in September 1982,
after the
assassination of the Maronite Prime Minister Bashir Gemayel, on the
announced
and highly believable pretext that Palestinian civilians would need
protection from Phalangist reprisal. He then sent into their undefended
camps
the most extreme faction of the Phalangist militia and backed up the
dirty
work of these notorious fascists with flares during the night, and
rear-guard
cover during the day, for thirty-six hours before having them escorted
out in
triumph and thanked for their work. In other words, the bulk of US
overseas
military aid is about to be lavished on a man who stood with hands on
hip, in
belt and boots and steel helmet and binoculars, and saw a mound of human

corpses rise, and who thought it good. For this outcome, the soil has
been
manured by the beautiful thoughts of Elie Wiesel.




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Subject: Holocaust Religion and Holocaust Industry in the service of Israel : 
 Shraga Elam* 
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Enclosed is an article which will be published in the next issue of the
Israeli-Palestinian magazine "Between The Lines".
This article is relevant also  in the context of the present discussion
on Norman Finkelstein's book "The Holocaust Industry".

Shraga Elam

Holocaust Religion and Holocaust Industry in the service of Israel


Shraga Elam*

There can be no argument that Judeocide (1) during World War II played
and continues to play a major role in the Arab/Israeli conflict

On the one hand, it is a commonly held Arab position that Judeocide is
merely one of many bogus Zionist postures to manipulate world public
opinion.

On the other hand, most Zionists believe that this catastrophe (in
Hebrew, ‘shoa’) demonstrates beyond doubt the necessity of a Jewish
state; and had there been one during WWII, this genocide would not have
taken place.  Moreover, it is claimed that only a militarily strong
Israel which prevents such a catastrophe from recurring.

Each of the above positions is the result of the same distorted mode of
processing the past.  This mode can be called religious, even though the
usual definition of religion includes a god concept --- one which is
absent  in this discussion.  In all other ways, the necessary religious
characteristics are in place:


dogmas
commandments
rituals
shrines
prophets and priests
and, of course, economic/financial structures

One can, therefore, speak of a “Holocaust  Religion” and its “Satanic”
arch enemy, “Holocaust Denial”. A third way to deal with the Judeocide,
which should be defined as secular and scientific, is often  identified
with the "Holocaust Denial."

The use of the term “Holocaust”, which means "A burnt- sacrifice or
offering, the whole of which was consumed by fire"(2), reflects the
religious character of the dominant historiography of Judeocide(3).

Using the designation "Holocaust" for the extermination of the Jews
implies accordingly the absurdity that the Nazis scarified the Jews in a
kind of a religious ritual.

The birth of the Holocaust Religion is considered to have been triggered
by  the trial in Jerusalem of the Nazi criminal Adolf Eichmann in 1961.
This show-trial was a spectacle meant to get the Jewish Israeli public
mainly the then youngest generation acquainted with the Judeocide.

The trial did not succeed in achieving this aim not because this
middle-ranking SS-officer, Eichman, was not adequate  to represent the
whole extermination machinery.  Nor was the failure due to the
impossibility of reducing the nazi monstrous system to a single
individual.

The fundamental reason for the failure must be attributed to the central
Zionist tenet: the “Negation of the Diaspora” a recurrent theme which
made it very difficult for the young Jewish-Israelis to identify
themselves with European Jewry.

Several generations of Israeli Jews were brought up to loathe Jewish
existence abroad. in fact, Jewish way of life in Europe, for example,
was viewed as sick and to be overcome through Zionism.  Young
Jewish-Israelis were brain-washed, through the late 70’s, to internalize
typical Christian European prejudices against Jews and thus did not want
to identify themselves with their own grandparents or even their
parents, who had not resisted oppression in Europe.

It is precisely owing to their role as victimizers that, even now, it is
easier for Israeli soldiers to identify with the Nazis than with their
own ancestors --- the victims.  Example: in 1982 after the bombing of
Beirut and putting the city under siege, Israeli soldiers disgusted at
what they had just done, told an excited and adoring German journalist
who wanted to know how they were feeling: “we have just created a Warsaw
ghetto.”

Even though Eichmann's trial did not achieve the desired effect inside
Israel, its impact abroad was enormous. Elie Wiesel, a former
concentration camp inmate, who came to Jerusalem to report on the
process,  subsequently initiated a religious modality for handling the
Judeocide.  This religion was to become very dominant in the ensuing
years.   It came  to be accepted by not only by most Jews but also many
non-Jews, especially in the industrialized countries.   It was to
become  one of the most important tools of the Israeli propaganda
machinery.

The relevancy of the Holocaust Religion to the Middle East conflict
cannot be overlooked. Its real breakthrough according to the Jewish
theologian Marc Ellis, who defines it rather as a theology, came through
the Israeli victory in 1967(4).

"Holocaust theology yields three themes that exist in dialectical
tension: suffering and empowerment, innocence and redemption,
specialness and normalization(5)"

After this war there was according to this analysis a kind of a
religious messianic salvation. The Judeocide and the big 'threat' to
Israel in 1967 are the suffering. The building of the State of Israel
and especially the victory of 1967 are the redemption.

Of course Zionism lost its innocence long before 1967.  Already in the
1930’s, David Ben Gurion, the most important Zionist leader, realized
the huge potential in Judeocide as he brought these religious elements
together into a simple direct political motto for the
instrumentalization of the Jewish sufferings in Europe. He declared:
"Catastrophe is Power."  Which means the Zionist movement should find
ways to profit politically and financially from the agony. Yet the
catastrophe  became a real source of political power only after Israel
became a military success in 1967. Which means, a catastrophe as such is
not necessarily a source of power. One  must be powerful in order to be
able to use and abuse a disaster.

In their book "Dangerous Liasion"(6) ,  Andrew and Leslie Cockburn
describe how only after 1967 did Israel become  attractive to the US
military establishment. Though Israel had, before that time, a burning
desire to work for Washington, the US was not enthusiastic until Israel
demonstrated its strength on the battlefield..

The  journalist J.J. Goldberg(7) argues that the Jewish lobby became
strong only after 1967. AIPAC the most known lobby became influential
through the Israeli importance for the US foreign policy and not the
other way around. This claim sounds very plausible when one considers
that the American Jewish organizations were not able to convince the
Roosevelt administration to be more helpful towards European Jewry
during the Nazi era(8). Although,  for example, the New York Times was
in Jewish ownership it did not darem just like the mainstream US Jewish
organizations, to oppose  the anti-Jewish policy of the State
Department. The lobby to establish a Zionist state in Palestine was
anyway more effective than the one to save the Jews. This was the line
dictated by Ben Gurion and executed by his delegate Abba Hillel Silver.

The Zionist influence at that period was less strong than perceived
through  the Arab lens. Still the leadership of  the Jewish agency (JA),
i.e., the government-in-formation, headed by the Zionist Labor movement,
started very early to cash in on the Nazi persecutions of the Jews. This
"Holocaust Industry"(9) had been founded even before the Judeocide was
really launched.

In the mid 30's the JA reached a deal with the Nazis, the so called
Ha'avara agreement, which helped the Zionist movement not only to
attract to Palestine very wealthy investors, but to get direct control
of some of their money.  According to the this arrangement,  rich Jews
could get some of their properties out of Germany if they immigrated  to
Palestine and the Jewish Agency received a nice commission from these
deals. This arrangement was, among others, the result of  strong Nazi
support for the Zionist project, since corresponding with the Zionist
aims the main German objective at that time was to expel the Jews from
Europe. This  policy coincided with the Zionist aims(10).

The collaboration with the Nazis brought the Zionists the much needed
capital for the colonization of Palestine ($40 million, which were "60%
of capital invested in Palestine between 1933 and the war"(11). This
agreement practically saved  the Zionist movement in Palestine from
bankruptcy  argues the journalist Lenni Brenner.

The JA came thus to be the largest agent for German goods in the Middle
East and sabotaged Jewish efforts to declare a boycott against the
Nazis.

THIS  fruitful cooperation between the Nazis and the Zionists came to an
end in 1938 following Arab insurrections. After which the British  tried
to stop Jewish Immigration into Palestine. Besides the German faction,
which sought an anti-British alliance with the Arabs got stronger and
blocked the export to Palestine  of  goods so needed at home.

Still the pro-Zionist Nazi factions  (Eichmann was  a part of them) kept
their contacts with the Jewish Agency. According to the coordinator of
the Zionist activities in occupied Europe, Nathan Dror-Schwalb, his
people were working together with Eichmann in 1938 as he expelled the
Austrian Jews(12). Zionist delegates, according to Schwalb, could
operate without disturbance in Germany throughout the war and organize
their cells of the youth movement Hehalutz(13).

According to the Israeli historian S. Beit-Zvi the JA-leadership did not
hesitate to sabotage rescue efforts.  This happened after it became
clear, that the British  would not allow a Jewish mass immigration to
Palestine. Beit-Zvi argues that the JA-leadership was afraid that a
large number of Jews would be saved and sent to some other destinations
rather than Palestine.  This development was considered a political and
economic danger (!) to the Zionist project, as it would absorb resources
needed to establish the state and would weaken the Zionist claim that
Palestine is the only possible refuge for Jews(14).

According to Beit-Zvi,  Golda Meir was responsible for sabotaging the
concrete chances of rescue of the refugees  which was discussed at
conference of Evian in 1938. Beit-Zvi claims that this was the real
reason why this famous conference actually failed.

In a very famous speech Ben Gurion formulated the JA rescue policy as
follow:

"If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany
by bringing them over to England, and only half of them by transporting
them to Eretz Yisrael, then I would opt for the second alternative. For
we must weigh not only the life of these children, but also the history
of the People of Israel."(15)

Ben-Gurion's apologists have tried to  explain away this quotation. But
an objective examination of the following activities of the JA, the
protocols of JA-leadership  and the factual low priority it gave to
rescue operations,  can only confirm the claim that this speech was
emblematic of this attitude  and that it basically never changed even
after the scope of the catastrophe became clear(16).

In the case of the Hungarian Jews, the charge of direct collaboration of
the Labor party controlled JA leadership with the Nazis is raised by
both Jewish Antizionists and Ultra-Zionists (Likud and the radical
right). The Zionist representative, Israel Kastner is accused of making
possible the efficient deportation of half a million Jews to Auschwitz
through the cooperation of his committee with Eichmann. The defenders
of Kastner argue that he actually tried to save the Jews through
negotiating with the Nazis. Even if this claim is true, it is beyond
discussion that these negotiations were sabotaged by the JA-leadership,
the mainstream Jewish organizations in the USA and also by  the Allies.

Another Israeli historian, Idith Zertal, claims that Ben Gurion was
already before WWII mainly interested in the rescue operations only  for
the national purposes. The saving of persecuted Jews was to be used
primarily a means of pressure on the British Empire to abolish its
immigration restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine. But even
for these purposes, there were hardly any meaningful rescue activities
during the war. There were very few Zionist delegates to coordinate such
operations and they had hardly any financial resources to be effective.

According to Zertal the spectacular actions of the illegal immigration
after the war, like the famous trip of the "Exodus", were mainly part of
a very effective propaganda campaign.  The Jewish organization "Joint"
claimed at that time, that the total number of immigrants including the
illegal ones was smaller than British quota. This means that if the
Jewish refugees would have been transported to Palestine legally, under
normal conditions, it would have been cheaper, more comfortable and
safer for them than using the shaky illegal ships and their number would
not necessarily have been lower.  But by using this legal way, the JA
would have lost the propaganda effects of the pictures of British
soldiers using excessive amount of force against Jewish survivors(17).

Though the Zionist leadership was not very active in saving Jews (to say
the least), it started already during WWII to prepare a restitution
campaign.  The JA felt itself empowered to make claims on Jewish
properties without being bothered by such trivialities like whether or
not the legitimate owners or their heirs were still alive(18).

The Zionist project needed a lot of money and therefore it is not
surprising that the JA did not have too many ethical considerations when
they endeavored to save Nazi war criminals, that is,  if  the Nazis
could pay enough for it. Thus the SS officer responsible for the robbery
of the Hungarian Jewry, Kurt Becher,  and some of his friends were saved
. The aforementioned  Israel Kastner was sent in 1948 by the Israeli
finance minister to Germany to save these Nazis from trial. In return,
Becher gave orders to his Swiss trustee to transfer money to the Jewish
Agency(19).

This was also the case of the important Nazi agent, Jaac van Harten,
whose money financed in 1945/46 the illegal Jewish immigration to
Palestine and acquisitions of weapons . Van Harten was crucial for the
flight of Nazis out of Europe, but the agents of the Mossad Le'Aliyah
Beth(20) who protected him, could not care less. He himself found refuge
later in Tel Aviv, where he got the protection of no less than Golda
Meir, the de-facto foreign minister at that time (1947). Till the 60's
Van Harten kept contacts with his former Nazi boss, Friedrich Schwend,
who was then working in Peru with other famous Nazis like Josef Mengele
and Klaus Barbie. Schwend was considered to be a kind of finance
minister of the planned Fourth Reich (21).

The Zionist movement succeeded after WWII in getting restitution
illegitimately  in the name of the Nazi victims. At the last stages of
the war  representatives of the Jewish Agency gathered Jewish properties
and were nominated as recipient for such assets at the Paris Reparation
Conference (1945/46).  The larger amount of money began to flow in the
50's as the USA intensified its efforts to reintegrate West Germany in
its Cold War strategy. A German researcher reports about a meeting in
Switzerland between the German CHANCELLOR Konrad Adenauer and the
Israeli President Haim Weizmann. In this meeting Adenauer agreed to pay
compensations if Israel would give it consent for the rearmament of West
Germany(22).

These restitution monies were very crucial for building the Israeli
economy and military. Most probably the victory of 1967 would not have
been possible without this support.

After 1967 the  influence of the Holocaust Industry and the Holocaust
Religion increased as a result of the ever growing importance of Israel
in terms of  US interests. The Holocaust Religion was able to achieve a
growing control over the public opinion in Western countries. Its
influence in the 90's reached an unexpected climax.

Steven Spielberg's film "Schindler's list" and the ceremonies
commemorating the Jubilee of the end of WWII functioned like a trigger
for this outburst. As an outcome of this memory-explosion the Holocaust
Industry was in position to launch in 1995 a very effective restitution
campaign against the Swiss banks, which now HAS been expanded to include
other countries. It was a mixture of a just claim, presented by the
wrong organizations for the wrong purposes, but fed through a fear of
the mythological 'Jewish Power' and its overestimated influence on the
US government. Of course the Jewish organizations got the support of
Clinton's administration in this campaign, but it is not clear how far
the US would have gone on this issue against the Swiss banks. Thus the
Swiss became 'victims' of their own prejudices against the Jews.

>From a rather unimportant organization looking for an issue, with this
Swiss help, the World Jewish Congress and the affiliated organizations
came to be a very influential factor. The undertaking has brought till
now some $9 billion and the story is not yet over.

Israel itself tries not to be involved directly in this campaign,  in
order not to get into any diplomatic complications with friendly
countries like  Switzerland. Instead the World Jewish Congress (WJC),
the Jewish Claims Conference (JCC) and some other organizations are
leading  the activities. Israel just hopes in one way or another to get
its share in any eventual booty.  For example, after a certain
compensation for  survivors was paid by Switzerland, the Israeli
government tried to cut the social security support to the  Israeli
recipients commensurate with what they’d receive from Switzerland. A
step which means, that actually the money from Switzerland would have
gone to state of Israel and not to the victims.

In the meantime there is much more money in the restitution funds, but
its distribution is delayed (Israel belongs to the slowest distributors)
and the survivors have the feeling that the Jewish organizations
'representing' them, are just waiting for more of them to die, so that
the funds will be distributed for other purposes.

The survivors and the legitimate owners of robbed properties realized
too late that their interests are being abused by the leading Jewish
organizations (all of them with a strong Zionist influence). These
survivors are too weak and too old to fight effectively against the
mighty jet-setters of organized Jewry.

There was a series of articles in various papers in Israel, Switzerland,
Germany and USA demonstrating how the most important restitution
organization, the Jewish Claims Conference, is robbing the legitimate
heirs, as  Joseph Wolff  describes. Wolff, a former director of the
Israeli oil firm Paz, after learning about the cruelty of the JCC,
decided to try to help the twice victimized people. The efforts of this
influential and well connected person did not help much and till today
there is not much clarity regarding the activities of the JCC. No
outsider knows how much money it controls, how much is distributed, who
are the recipients etc.

The attacks of the US political scientist Norman Finkelstein against the
JCC in his book "The Holocaust Industry" irritate the organized Jewry
but  in  the short run do no more than that. This is because Finkelstein
did not invest enough energy in the complicated  investigations needed
to prove his claims.

In a web-site "The Survivors vs. the Holocaust Industry"(23),  several
old survivors have tried to initiate the struggle against the JCC, but
they are not very optimistic, as they do not have funds to finance the
fight against the mighty organizations.

They protest against the injustices and demand that they should be able
to decide how the money should be  allocated.

The protesting survivors claim that the Jewish organizations are very
slow in  distributing the monies and that they are just wait till all of
will die. They note that actually each and every month 1,000 survivors
around the world die.

The survivor Gerhard Maschkowski who is among the leaders of this
struggle writes:

"After the war ended in 1945, Holocaust survivors were treated shabbily;
most were forced to live in Displaced Persons Camps in Europe as the
world was forced to deal with stateless character of the Jewish people
until the founding of the State of Israel in 1948 [he seems to forget to
mention explicitly the role of the Jewish Agency in this postponement.
The JA used once again the sufferings of the survivors as a political
instrument - se].  Later, the "reparations and restitution" efforts
established ostensibly for the benefit of Holocaust survivors in the
United States, were inadequate and arbitrarily administered, resulting
in a legacy of frustration and humiliation for American survivors.
Today's abandonment is occurring in the context of settlements of class
actions and disputes over Swiss bank accounts, looted Nazi gold, Nazi
use of Jewish slave laborers, and European insurers' theft of Jews'
insurance policies.  While the headlines cry with large dollar figures
purporting to represent compensation for Holocaust victims, and the box
quotes are full of lavish praise and gratitude for the settlements "as
we enter a new millennium," the truth is, the interests of Holocaust
survivors have received the lowest priority in these negotiations. From
every perspective, the deals fall short of rendering meaningful justice
or dignity to those who were victimized. [...] the agreement were struck
to provide immunity for vast numbers of European corporations that
profited from the Holocaust, in most cases, without a true accounting
for their World War II actions(24)"

This last point is demonstrated perfectly by the Interhandel affair, the
scandal of the foreign assets of the largest Nazi chemical combine IG
Farben, who among other things produced the gas for the extermination of
the Jews. These assets should have been confiscated already during WWII
and be used for the rehabilitation of war refugees, for example. This
did not happen, because Corporate America was interested  in protecting
these funds  and the Swiss authorities and some banks were willing to
help. This money estimated to be of a present value of at least $5
billion, was in the 60's after a long legal fight misappropriated by the
largest Swiss bank, Union Bank of Switzerland, (today United Bank of
Switzerland - UBS) and the US government under Kennedy(25).  In 1995 I
discovered in the Swiss federal archives highly classified documents
proving clearly the dubious role of the UBS and the Swiss government in
this affair(26).

The Jewish organizations leading the restitution campaigns show an
ostensive disinterest in this large amount of money stemming from the
most important Nazi combine, whose direct involvement in the crimes in
Auschwitz is well known. Recently an employee of the JCC confirmed  my
suspicions and said that the organizations do not want to raise the
issue in order not to hurt the US interests involved.

It is safe to argue that neither the Holocaust Industry nor Israel have
ever really represented the interests of the Judeocide victims, although
they  keep trying to create this impression that they do. This lie
serves Israel in many ways. It guarantees today the support of most of
the Jews, who feel that Israel is their redemption in the possible hour
of their need, a kind of a insurance against possible dangers.  With the
Holocaust Religion, its institutions and priests it is possible to block
an all too radical critique against Israel and its crimes against the
Palestinians.  Thus the Palestinians actually become indirectly victims
of the Nazis.  The Holocaust Industry helps to finance the aggressions
against them and the Holocaust Religion assists in creating  a negative
public opinion of them. Thus the Palestinians have to pay the price for
German crimes and Western hypocrisy.

The exposure of the Zionist abuse of Judeocide, is therefore an
important element in the efforts to reach a real and just peace in the
Middle East.


Box:
Similar to the formulations of Israeli philosopher Adi Ophir the dogmas
of this Holocaust Religion can usefully be articulated as religious
commandments :


Remember  what Amalek has done to thee!

This compulsory directive is meant to cultivate and preserve for ever
and ever  the memory of all the wrongdoings of Amalek against the Jews.
Amalek is the biblical collective designation for all the enemies of the
Jews, who, in the 20th century become to be mainly the Nazis and the
Arabs.  It is in this sense not only a command to remember but also to
distrust and hate the non-Jews, the gentiles. This attitude is based on
the concept that the hate of the Jews, Judeophobia(27), is inherent in
all other cultures. Any questioning of the real danger for the Jews in
Europe or North America, for example, is considered  blasphemy.
Organizations like the Anti Defamation League (ADL) are zealously
pursuing the supposed and the real sinners. Activities like that of ADL
together with the everlasting commemorations of  Judeocide are important
elements for building the modern Jewish identity, especially for the
secular Jews.  Another consequence of this commandment  is that the Jews
are to be considered as the eternal victims. So even if they are the
victimizers they are still to be conceived as victims.


Thou shall never compare The Holocaust with any other Genocide!

The uniqueness of the Judeocide is a modern version of the old
judeocentric  concept of "choseness".  Jewish sufferings are special,
cannot and must never be compared with other miseries.
This commandment is very important for the mythologizing of the
Judeocide and for preventing a normal historical analysis, as one of the
common and important scientific method is the comparison.

This commandment  is very successful in the Western countries where the
Judeophobia  has a very long tradition and is still common. The
contemporary manifestation of the prejudices against Jews is sometimes
very  ingenious.  It camouflages  itself in an allegedly opposite
attitude, "Judeophilia", a kind of 'positive' racism.  The
transformation from one to the other is often seamless.


Thou shall never compare the nazi crimes with those of Israel!

Though on the whole, Isreali crimes are not yet comparable to nazi
crimes,  there are certain tendencies that must be recognized before
they become full-fledged reality.  Parallels therefore should not,
a-priori,  be  ignored.  For example, the potential for technocrats,
officers etc. to commit crimes is not some specific Nazi characteristic
but is endemic  to all modern system.


 No causal  relationships between the Judeocide and the Palestinian
tragedy are allowed

Every attempt to point out such a connection is considered to be a kind
of Holocaust-denial.


 Thou shall never  doubt the number of 6 million Jewish victims!

There is no real logical explanation for this figure’s being defended so
desperately.  The source of this statistic, the SS officer Wilhelm
Hoettl(28), was certainly not the most reliable informant.  If  the
number of the slaughtered Jews were 500,000 less , would the Nazi crimes
be less dreadful?


 Thou shall never doubt the right of Israel to exist as the Jewish
state!

As the Judeophobia will persist for ever, the Jews will need from now to
eternity a secure refuge. Therefore so many Jews who live in a greater
security outside Israel, still believe that this country should function
as a kind of anti-Judeocide insurance, even though the policy is paid
with Palestinian blood. Therefore is every anti-Zionist per this
definition a supporter of a potential Judeocide and is a Judeophobe.


Thou shall not  criticize the leading Jewish organizations and the
Israeli government!

This commandment is reasoned by the above arguments. A career oriented
politician, journalist or artist in Western countries will usuall prefer
to remain silent on these issues in publicm as the potential punishment
is viewed as very painful.

This commandment, like some others on this list, applies mainly to
non-Jews, but radical Jewish critics risk being branded as self-haters.


Thou must never criticize Jewish organizations and the Zionist
leadership for abandoning the European Jewry in the Nazi era!

Most of the attempts to raise this issue are blocked by the argument
that it will strengthen the Judephobes, who claim that the Jews alone
bear the guilt for their fate in WWII.

Without trying to minimize  the responsibility of the Nazis for their
crimes, one should take into account the behavior of a segment of the
Jewish community, most especially its leadership, inside and outside
occupied Europe. The victims have also a duty and responsibility and the
tragedy is always greater if a leadership betrays its own people. For
all practical purposes,  the Zionist leadership in Palestine and in the
USA abandoned European Jewry(29), and in certain cases sabotaged rescue
attempts(30) and in some other cases even collaborated with the
Nazis(31).


Thou shall not  doubt the central Role of Hitler in the
industrialization of the extermination of the Jews.

The fact that there is no proof for an Hitler's order to build Auschwitz
is one of the most emotional historical disputes.  Even logical
non-Hitler-centric descriptions are often labeled as Holocaust Denial.
This is one of the methods of preventing  a political secular
explanation of the Judeocide. One of the reasons for this commandment is
that any other explanation implies that there was a real possibility of
saving  the Jews and therefore the Zionist movement and the Allies are
guilty of abandoning them.


--------------

*Shraga Elam is an Israeli investigative journalist based in
Zurich/Switzerland. He specializes in historical researches about the
role of Jewish organizations and Switzerland during the Nazi era.

(1) Judeocide was coined by Prof. Arno Mayer instead of "Holocaust"
because of the religious character of the latter. See Arno J. Mayer, Why
Did the Heavens Not Darken?,  Pantheon, New York, 1988.
(2) Webster's 1828 Dictionary
(3) This is basically Mayer's argument
(4) Marc H. Ellis, Beyond Innocence & Redemption -Confronting The
Holocaust And Israeli Power Creating a Moral Future for the Jewish
People, Harper & Row, San Francisco, 1990
(5) Ellis p. 2
(6) Andrew and Leslie Cockburn,  Dangerous Liaison: The Inside Story of
the U.S.-Israeli Covert Relationship, Harper Collins  l991
(7) J. J. Goldberg, JEWISH POWER - Inside the American Establishment,
Addison-Wesley, Reading, Massachusetts, 1996,
(8) See e.g., David S. Wyman, The Abandonment of the Jews,  America and
the Holocaust, 1941-1945; Pantheon Books, New York 1984
(9) The phrase "Holocaust Industry" was not invented but popularized by
Norman Finkelstein through  his book: The Holocaust Industry Reflections
on the Exploitation  of Jewish Suffering.  Verso, New York, 2000
(10) See E.g. Francis R. Nicosia,  The Third Reich and the Palestine
Question, University of Texas Press, Austin, 1985
(11) Lenni Brenner, Zionism and Rescue, in Jim Allen, Perdition, Ithaca
Press 1987,  p. 74
(12) Interview of the author with Schwalb in 1993.
(13) See Nathan Dror-Schwalb's archives and Ferdinand Kroh, David
kämpft. Vom jüdischen Widerstand gegen Hitler, Reinbek 1988.
(14) S.B. Beit-Zwi: Post-Ugandian Zionism in the Crisis of the
Holocaust. Tel Aviv 1977 (Heb.) 1991 (eng.)
(15) Out of a Ben-Gurion speech in London in 1938,  Brenner in Perdition
p. 76
(16) See Tom Segev , but also the Israeli historian Yechiam Weitz who
tries to defend the JA in his book Aware but Helpless: Mapai and the
Holocaust, 1943-1945 Yad Izhak Ben-Zvi Press, Jerusalem 1994 (Heb.),
proves the opposite of his claim.
(17) Idith Zertal From Catastrophe to Power : Holocaust survivors and
the emergence of Israel, Berkeley : University of California Press,
c1998
(18)  For a description of the restitution campaign see Nana Sagi,
German Reparations - A History of the Negotiations, St. Martin’s Press,
New York, 1986,
(19) See Shraga Elam, Hitlers Faelscher - wie juedische, amerikanische
und Schweizer Agented der SS beim Falschgeldwaschen halfen (Hitler's
Forgers - how Jewish, US and Swiss Agents helped the SS to launder
forged money), Ueberreuter, Vienna, 2000.
(20) The organization for illegal immigration
(21) See Elam,  Hitlers Faelscher and Ha'aretz of 28.4.2000 and
19.5.2000
(22) Rudolf Jungnickel, Kabale am Rhein -Der Kanzler und sein
Monsignore, Wartburg Verlag, Weimar 1994. p. 451 ff.
(23) http://home.att.net/~gerhardm/compensation.html
(24) http://home.att.net/~gerhardm/abandonment.txt
(25) See e.g. Joseph Borkin, The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben.
The Startling Account of the Unholy Alliance of Adolf Hitler and
Germany's Great Chemical Combine, The Free Press, New York 1978.
(26) Shraga Elam, "Interhandel" - eine Saga ohne Ende - Wie das
Auslandsvermoegen der "I.G. Farben" ins Eigenkapital der
"Schweizerischen Bankgesellschaft" kam", in Sebastian Speich (ed.) - Die
Schweiz am Pranger, Ueberreuter/Cash Vienna/Zurich 1997.
(27)  The term Judeophobia is to be preferred to "anti-Semitism". As
anti-Semitism is on itself a racist designation which was created by one
of the inventor the Nazi ideology, Wilhelm Marr in 1879. The Jews might
be many things but for sure no race and in so far that there is
something like a Semitic race, the Arab belong to it as well.
(28)  The figures are contained in an affidavit made by Dr. Wilhelm
Hoettl  and presented in the Nuremberg Trial (Document 2738-PS, Exhibit
USA-296). Hoettl quoted Eichmann as the source of the information and
saved his own life through this testimony.
(29) See e.g., David S. Wyman, The Abandonment of the Jews,  America and
the Holocaust, 1941-1945; Pantheon Books, New York 1984 and Tom Segev
The Seventh Million - Israel Confronts the Holocaust, Hill & Wang 1993.
(30) See e.g., S.B. Beit-Zvi.
(31) See e.g., Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators. A
reappraisal. Croom Helm, London 1983  and Shraga Elam Hittlers Fälscher,
Ueberreuter Verlag, 2000.





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             The Independent - London
             2-12-1

             Finkelstein, Son Of Holocaust Survivors -
             'The Man Who Said Too Much'

             By Fergal Keane

             Norman Finkelstein has angered Jews by claiming that the
             Holocaust has become an industry. How can the son of camp
             survivors say such a thing?


             I doubt that I have ever interviewed a man who is more
exact
             about directions. In a lengthy e-mail, he suggests no less
than
             three different means of getting to his home in Coney
Island
             subway, New York taxi or mini-cab service and thoughtfully
             attaches the cost and duration of each. Norman Finkelstein,

             academic at a small New York university and author of a
book
             that earned the hostility of the Jewish establishment,
leading one
             prominent figure to describe him as "poison ... a
disgusting,
             self-hating Jew, he's something you find under a rock". And
by
             the way, he is the son of Holocaust survivors.

             My concept of the typical American academic's home was
             formed entirely by Hollywood and I expected Mr Finkelstein
to
             greet me on the porch of a wood-framed house, the smell of
             freshly brewed coffee wafting in the hallway as we
negotiated our
             way around a jumble of books and papers to his
wood-panelled
             study.

             Well, that's not Coney Island, and it certainly isn't
Norman
             Finkelstein. There are books aplenty but they are neatly
             stacked in
             a book case in the hall. It is a narrow hall. The rooms are
small,
             spotlessly clean and adorned with furniture that has been
sitting
             around a long time. There is an air of monastic asceticism
about
             the place.

             Norman Finkelstein has the sharp, vigorously alive
appearance of
             a man who takes care of his body. He jogs for several miles

             every morning and I get the impression he has few if any
mortal
             vices. But with Norman Finkelstein, you take care not to
intrude
             much into the detail of his personal life. It is not that
he would
             refuse to answer the questions, but that they seem so
             irrelevant to
             the central cause of his life: the Holocaust.

             Since the publication of his book The Holocaust Industry,
Norman
             Finkelstein has become an object of special loathing for
many
             fellow Jews. His claims that Jewish leaders have exploited
the
             Holocaust for financial gain and extorted money from the
German
             and Swiss governments caused outrage. As if that were not
             controversy enough, he also claimed that many of those who
say
             they are Holocaust survivors are fakes and that interest in
the
             Final Solution only arose after the 1967 Arab-Israeli war
when it
             was needed as a political weapon.

             He is a self-proclaimed supporter of the Palestinian cause
and
             has been beaten up by Israel soldiers while taking part in
a
             demonstration.

             He certainly has a gift for the incendiary sentence and the

             explosive simile (eg the suffering of the Holocaust has
been
             reduced to the moral stature of a Monte Carlo casino). He
abhors
             the current trend in Holocaust museums and exhibitions,
films like
             Schindler's List and the monuments and memorial services.
And
             when he speaks about his book and the reactions, his voice
             bristles with indignation. But did he not worry that by
labelling
             Jewish leaders as "hoaxers and hucksters" he was
perpetuating
             the anti-Semitic stereotype of the greedy grasping Jew?

             "I worry that these individuals are lending credibility to
             that ugly
             stereotype, and I think those of us who are concerned about
the
             spread of anti-Semitism have a responsibility to expose
these
             individuals, to repudiate these individuals and to work so
that
             these individuals are no longer part of public life, or are

             allowed to
             represent themselves as they do as representing American or

             world Jewry.

             "Abba Eban [the legendary Israeli foreign minister] makes
the
             joke 'there's no business like Shoa business'. That is
shameful
             and it ought to be rebuked, repudiated, exposed."

             But would he worry if the stand he's taken gave comfort to
             Holocaust deniers?

             "Holocaust deniers and the holocaust industry have a
symbiotic
             relationship. The Holocaust industry needs the deniers so
that it
             can continue to claim the world is awash with Holocaust
deniers
             so we need more museums, more conferences, more books, to
             justify their quote-unquote 'Holocaust education'. The
holocaust
             deniers, they love the Holocaust industry, because the
Holocaust
             industry supplies them with all the ammunition for their
             arguments. It's the Holocaust industry which continues to
wildly
             inflate the number of survivors. As my late mother used to
             say, 'if
             everybody who claims to be a Holocaust survivor actually is
one,
             who did Hitler kill,' and that's exactly what the Holocaust

             industry
             is doing. It's become the main exponent of Holocaust denial
in the
             world today."

             There has been criticism aplenty from sources outside the
             leadership of mainstream Jewish organisations. Journalists
who
             have reviewed the book have accused him of manipulating
facts.
             One accused him of being closer to the territory of the
Holocaust
             deniers than the survivors; others like Rabbi Julia
Neuberger
             have said the book fails because it is a rant and not a
reasoned
             critique like Professor Peter Novick's The Holocaust and
             Collective Memory. Interestingly, Finkelstein's book was
given
             much greater publicity and provoked a far wider debate here
in
             Britain than in the United States. The British, and
especially
             British
             Jews, he says, were far more willing to argue the issue.

             Finkelstein bats down the criticisms and places himself in
             distinguished intellectual company. Edmund Burke ranted and
so
             did Tom Paine, so did Rousseau and so did Marx.

             Throughout the "Taking A Stand" interview series, I have
always
             been more interested in motivation than justification. With
public
             figures and experienced interviewees, the arguments they
spend
             every day of their lives defending are so familiar to them
             that they
             shift into auto-response mode. If you don't take them off
that
             safe
             ground, little new is learned. With Norman Finkelstein,
every
             question is carefully answered. But when he leaves the
public
             debate on the Holocaust and talks about his parents there
is a
             distinct change in his tone of voice. It is softer and very

             often tinged
             with sadness.

             The flat we are sitting in was inherited from his father, a

             survivor of
             the Auschwitz death march. His mother survived the Majdanek

             camp. Neither his mother or father received compensation
sums
             for their death-camp experiences. (His father did receive a

             German pension until his death.) On the walls, there are
pictures
             of his parents. They are a handsome couple and it is hard
to
             connect them with the half-ghosts they must have been at
the end
             of the war. There are others on the wall close relatives
who did
             not survive the camps. I ask him what it was like to grow
up
             in the
             shadow of the Holocaust.

             "The earliest recollection I have, I can see it in my
mind's eye,
             was I came home from school to where we lived in a little
             apartment in Borough Park in Brooklyn, an orthodox Jewish
             neighbourhood, and I walked into the living room and my
mother
             had her eyes fixed on the TV screen. She was watching the
             Eichmann trial. I was about nine years old and then my
mother
             started to read through books on the Warsaw ghetto. I
remember
             trying to make this mental leap between the people in this
place
             called the Warsaw ghetto starving and on the verge of
             extermination and so forth, and trying to connect them with
my
             parents... and there was no way for me to make, much as I
tried,
             the imaginative leap. I just couldn't."

             His parents would discuss the Holocaust as a moral or
political
             issue, but they would never speak of their personal
experiences.
             He does remember that when anything went wrong with the
             electricity supplies in the house his father would seize
             pliers and
             thrust it into a socket.

             Norman and his brothers would shout at him to stop but
their
             mother would say: "Don't worry, he was an electrician in
             Auschwitz." Little glimpses now and again.

             Like the trip to Germany in 1979. His mother had been
called to
             give evidence against some camp guards and Norman travelled

             with her. "It was for me a terrible experience. When we
went, the
             assumption was that these guards would be incarcerated and
             would be treated as criminals of considerable dimensions...
my
             mother saw them walking freely around the courthouse and
she
             was totally shocked and she said: 'Why aren't they in
cages, those
             animals, why aren't they in cages?'"

             His mother hated all Germans and all Poles, believed them
all to
             be anti-Semitic. Norman does not share this view and will
be
             travelling to Germany soon on a lecture tour.

             Earlier in the interview, I asked him if he was never
tempted to
             ask his parents about their personal experiences of the
camps.
             His reply surprised me. "To tell you the truth, I was
terrified of
             asking him. I was afraid that the floodgates would open and
I
             wouldn't be able ever again to detach myself from him. I
would
             feel so duty-bound to somebody who had suffered so much,
that I
             would never be able to say no to anything. As it was I
think
             it's fair
             to say I was a faithful son... I felt that if I found out
             more, I could
             never separate myself from my parents."

             When his father was dying from Alzheimer's in a public
hospital in
             Brooklyn, Norman Finkelstein would visit him three times a
day to
             make sure he had food. With one nurse to 30 patients,
Norman's
             mother would tell her son he had to go to the hospital.
"Your
             father, after Auschwitz, he can't die a death like that."
Whenever
             he writes, he says, he feels that his parents are looking
over his
             shoulder, nodding or shaking their heads. They are in that
room
             in Coney Island alright, with a faithful son and the
impossible
             weight of the Holocaust bearing down on all of them. 





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http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/story.html?f=/stories/20010214/473886

.html

National Post | February 14, 2001

Spreading the blame to IBM is dangerous

John O'Sullivan
United Press International

To the lengthening list of those who helped the Nazis to implement the
Holocaust, we are now told to add the name of the U.S. pioneer of
information technology -- International Business Machines, or IBM for
short. A lawsuit was launched against the company in Brooklyn on Monday
on
behalf of Holocaust survivors. And a sensational new book, IBM and the
Holocaust, by the former journalist Edwin Black, alleges IBM's
punch-card
technology enabled the Nazis to transform the otherwise haphazard
business
of mass murder into an efficient bureaucracy of genocide. Hitler even
gave
a medal to IBM founder Thomas Watson.

Since IBM stopped operating in Germany in 1940 and lost all control of
its
German subsidiary in 1941 -- the year before the Holocaust began -- a
long
chain of reasoning is needed to establish IBM's guilt. That guilt rests
on
such arguments as IBM technology facilitated a more efficient pre-war
census which in turn enabled the Nazis, in Mr. Black's words, "to
achieve
scale, velocity and efficiency" in classifying people racially and
rounding
them up.

There are, however, weak links in this chain. As the distinguished
historian Raul Hilberg pointed out to the Washington Post, for instance,

the Nazis were good bureaucrats with such primitive methods as pen and
paper. If IBM had for some reason denied them punch cards, they could
either have pirated the technology or nationalized the German company.
And
as the SS and the Wehrmacht showed on the eastern front, simply
machine-gunning people into
mass graves achieved scale, velocity and efficiency, too. Without punch
cards, the Holocaust would have lacked punch cards.

Even if Mr. Black's speculations were correct, however, that still would

not condemn IBM. To prove complicity in the Holocaust, you must show
more
than that a company traded with the Nazis between 1933 and 1940. That
standard would convict virtually every government and international
company
of the day. What must be demonstrated is that IBM knowingly and
willingly
provided the Nazis with the tools of genocide. If that can be done, IBM
deserves censure. Otherwise, accusations of complicity become little
more
than a way of spreading the blame for the Holocaust away from the Nazis
and
on to -- well, on to IBM, the entire German people (for having an
"exterminationist" culture), the Swiss, Pope Pius XII, the Allied
leaders
(for failing to bomb the death camps), the United States (for not
admitting
more German-Jewish refugees before 1939) and anyone else who did not
heroically assist the Jews from Nazi persecution.

There were, of course, individuals, groups and governments who
collaborated
with the Nazis when their full wickedness was clear. We rightly condemn
them for what they actually did. To spread the blame more widely,
however,
on to those who failed either to foresee Nazi crimes or to resist them
with
the utmost heroism is objectionable on several grounds.

First, it blames people for actions taken before 1940 on the basis of
what
we know happened from 1941 to 1945. Yet how could they be expected to
foresee a genocide that even most German Jews thought incredible?
Insofar
as people were nervous of a genocidal regime at the time, moreover, they

were nervous of Soviet Russia. Before September, 1939, Hitler's victims
were numbered in thousands, whereas Stalin had already murdered millions
in
the forced Ukrainian famine and the Great Terror. That was why East
European governments were reasonably reluctant to ally themselves with
Russia against Germany. They wanted neither the frying pan nor the fire.

That turned out to be a political miscalculation -- Hitler was the more
immediate threat, and in the end they got both Hitler and Stalin -- but
it
was an understandable one.

Second, there is something morally unpleasant about people who live in
the
safety and prosperity of today demanding heroic resistance from those
who
lived daily with fear and hunger in the war years. We all like to think
we
would have been "righteous gentiles," sheltering Hitler's victims; in
fact
we might not have been brave or selfless enough. For that reason, one of

the political heroes of anti-Nazism, British Foreign Secretary Anthony
Eden, always refused to comment on how the French behaved under German
rule. We were never occupied, he said; we cannot know what we might have

done to survive.

Finally, the more we spread the blame, the more we lighten the
responsibility of Hitler and the Nazis. Instead of the perpetrators of a

uniquely terrible crime, they become merely the most active and
energetic
agents of an Evil that many others served timidly and nervously. But the

Nazis chose mass murder; some collaborators joined them willingly and
share
their guilt; others were dragooned into collaboration through fear or at

gunpoint. These distinctions are crucially important and must not be
fudged.

Thomas Watson, incidentally, returned the medal to Hitler in 1940 in
protest at German policies.

Or not incidentally. 




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The Book They Dare Not Review
                                                   An Inconvenient
Holocaust Story
                                                             by John
Lombardi
                                                                   May
9, 1994
                                                           ©1994 by New
York Magazine

                         At GQs Christmas party the year before last,
editor-for-life Art Cooper glanced up from his Moet glass
                         to behold a very unhappy face: a junior-junior
editor who'd just spent weeks checking a 10,000-word
                         story by John Sack. The former Esquire magazine
star had written a stunning piece on Jews who'd
                         "turned the tables" on Germans after World War
II, contributing to the deaths of 60,000 to 80,000 of
                         them in prisons and concentration camps. The
young GQ woman had located a Columbia University
                         professor who'd independently authenticated
Sack's startling research (Antony Polonsky, the
                         respected Brandeis University scholar, soon did
the same for Basic Books, which would publish
                         Sack's full-length account). But now the junior
editor had just learned that GQ was killing the story.
                         "Why?" Sack recalls her asking Cooper. After
he'd spluttered for a few moments about "the libel laws
                         in Britain," where GQ is also distributed, she
interrupted him: "Bullshit, Art. It's a Jewish thing, isn't
                         it?" (Cooper says the encounter never happened
and calls the imputation absurd.)

                         In fact, several senior members of Conde-Nast's
in-house law firm (Conde-Nast owns GQ) had
                         trooped into Cooper's office a few days
earlier, and after they'd trooped out, the normally ebullient
                         Cooper had telephoned Sack. "This is not a
happy call," he'd said. Sack, who'd once been voted
                         "most religious" in his New Rochelle reform
temple's Torah class, was mystified: GQ had paid him
                         $15,000 plus expenses to travel to Poland and
Germany in pursuit of the story; the magazine was set
                         to ship proofs to the printer; a cover had been
dummied with a top line that read a death camp run by
                         a jew, and Cooper had even called Sack's story
"the most important ...in GQ's history." Yet suddenly
                         British libel laws were being invoked as a
reason to cancel everything?

                         Sack began shopping his story--which focused on
Solomon Morel, a Jewish camp commandant at
                         Schwientochlowitz in Poland--to likely buyers:
Harper's Magazine, where Sack had been a
                         contributor, rejected the manuscript as
"overheated"; The New Yorker refused to even read it; Rolling
                         Stone declined, commenting, "I'm sure you'll
understand"; even Esquire, under then-editor Terry
                         McDonell (who'd sent Sack to cover the Gulf
War), passed, calling the story "too bloody" (!). Only
                         Jonathan Larsen, the editor of The Village
Voice, would publish the piece, which he did last March.
                         After researchers had spent a week vetting it,
Larsen joked, "This may be the most accurate story in
                         the history of American journalism."

                         So why the great reluctance? Solomon Morel, the
protagonist of the Voice excerpt, was finally being
                         sought by the Polish government for what
amounted to crimes against humanity, and Sack's
                         hyperactively written book, though sympathetic
to Morel, constituted a virtual indictment. After
                         recounting how Morel had lost his family to
Polish collaborators during the war, he described Morel
                         torturing German civilians at Schwientochlowitz
(where he'd been placed in 1945 by postwar Poland's
                         Jewish-dominated Office of State Security),
inviting drunken party guests to beat the Germans with
                         clubs:

                              "You! Lie on top of them crosswise! No!"
he cried, clubbing the man. "I said crosswise!
                              You!" he continued, and he kept piling up
Germans, three this way, three that, till he had a
                              human cube as high as a hand could reach.
"All right!" Solomon said, and his guests started
                              swinging their clubs, whacking away at the
cube as if they were hunters and it were a pod
                              of Canadian seals…In the high tiers, the
Germans cried "Bitte! Please!"… the Germans in
                              the center tiers moaned, but the Germans
in the low tiers were mute, for the weight of the
                              two dozen people on top had pushed their
viscera out and [they] were dying.

                         The Voice piece affected the media in two ways:
Alarms went off that Sack had produced a tract that
                         would prove useful to those whom Leon
Wieseltier, literary editor of The New Republic, would later
                         characterize as "the enemies of truth," i.e.,
traditional anti-Semites and right-wing crazies interested in
                         denying the Holocaust and showing that Jews
were as "bad as Nazis"; and excitement grew at Basic
                         Books, which signed Sack up, and 60 Minutes,
which dispatched its own researchers to verify Sack's
                         reporting.

                         60 Minutes came up with eight eyewitnesses,
independent of Sack, who reported that Morel had
                         indeed "[trampled] on us with his boots and
kick[ed] us in the head" until "many" died; "beat people
                         over the head [with stools] until skulls were
so badly smashed that people were left dying," and
                         submerged prisoners in freezing water. In all,
at least 1,500 Germans and Poles perished in Morel's
                         custody after the war, according to the German
Federal Archives.

                         The incidence of such crimes was later verified
by Professors Istvan Deak of Columbia University's
                         Institute on East Central Europe and Arno Mayer
of Princeton University's history department. "The
                         great majority of political police officers
were certainly Jews," says Deak, "and many among them
                         were out for revenge--but this must be put in
the context of Poland after the war. Stalin may have
                         chosen Jews deliberately, so they would cause
resentment and could be blamed later." Confirms
                         Mayer: "I don't play the numbers game, but it's
more than likely that that was the case."

                         The evidence was incontrovertible but
unwelcome. At the same time that Steven Spielberg's film
                         Schindler's List, which romanticized the
motives of a German businessman who'd saved 1,100 Jews
                         from the death camps, began gathering media
momentum, An Eye for an Eye was published by the
                         highly regarded Basic last November, and then
reported on by 60 Minutes. Abe Foxman of the
                         Anti-Defamation League immediately blasted the
report as untrue, arguing that Morel, "while born a
                         Jew," would have been better described "as a
Communist of Jewish origin"; Elan Steinberg of the
                         World Jewish Congress appeared on 60 Minutes,
warning viewers that "you cannot rely on
                         eyewitnesses [because] you're insulting the
memory of 6 million martyrs."

                         Wieseltier, too, was incensed: "I'm not
embarrassed to say that as part of my job of policing the
                         culture, I felt that the sooner we stopped this
book the better." He felt he lacked "the scholarly
                         equipment" to properly attack the book himself;
however, so he gave it to Daniel Goldhagen of
                         Harvard's Center for European Studies.
Goldhagen wrote a devastating piece that impugned Sack's
                         research and interpretation--like Foxman he
questioned the "Jewishness" and number of Jews
                         implicated in the crimes: "Whenever a Jew was
involved in some brutality, no matter how irrelevant to
                         the deed…Sack leaps to identify him as…a Jew";
"Sack's…claim that 75 percent of those in the
                         Office of State Security in Silesia were Jews
[is] sheer invention," etc. Goldhagen's rhetoric is
                         rote--Sack's arguments were not "sober or
learned"; "in no sense does [his book's] empirical basis
                         justify its packaging"; it creates "a sometimes
subtle and sometimes not so subtle indictment of Jews in
                         general," and thus feeds ancient ant-Semitic
prejudices. In a subsequent exchange of letters, Wieseltier
                         allowed Goldhagen to sidestep Sack's
rebuttals--that the 75 percent figure represented the number of
                         Jews in leadership positions in Silesia; that
the Jews had identified themselves as Jews; and that he'd
                         never made any reference to "Jews dominating
Poland" at all. Nevertheless, Wieseltier says now, "It's
                         one of the stupidest books I've ever read, and
I frankly resolved to do as much damage as I could."

                         One of Wieseltier's and Goldhagen's main
objections was Sack's prose. It was far too "spontaneous,"
                         cracking jokes and "recreating" dialogue--all
high-journalese methods completely inappropriate for
                         serious historical documentation. As a matter
of fact, Sack's style, forged in the sixties when he was
                         one of the preeminent "New journalists" at
Esquire, had failed to flatten itself in accordance with
                         nineties "stenographic" tastes. The latter
objection had already been raised by book editors who'd seen
                         An Eye for an Eye before Basic bought it. Bob
Loomis at Random House, for example, said the
                         approach should have been "reserved and clear"
but was "too hyped and overwritten"; Kent Carroll at
                         Carroll & Graf didn't like "the novelistic
style" and felt that the "anecdotes and stories don't really give
                         a sense of what…happened" (!); Lee Goerner of
Atheneum worked the other side of the street:, "[It]
                         is rather an interesting story. But for these
tired eyes, not told with very telling effect." Terry
                         McDonell, then of Esquire, however, laid the
fish on the plate. "Don't believe it," he told Sack.
                         "They're scared, and I'm scared, too."

                         The New Republic's
                   POV seemed to be the subtext for Bettyann Kevles's
Los Angeles Times review and for Daniel Wick's San
                   Francisco Chronicle piece, but most U.S.
publications, rather astonishingly, simply ignored Sack altogether.
                   Although the New York Times has been meticulous in
covering Holocaust-related subjects, and though An Eye for
                   an Eye was rushed to managing editor Joseph Lelyveld
and assistant managing editor Warren Hoge, columnist Abe
                   Rosenthal, Times Book Review editor Becky Sinkler,
and Warsaw bureau chief lane Perlez, no mention of the book
                   has ever appeared in the paper; fifteen phone calls
to Sinkler and her deputy Marvin Siegel went unanswered; and
                   Rosenthal, when reached, asked for a synopsis, then
laughed and said, "I've never heard of this author or his book,
                   okay?"

                         Nina King of the Washington Post's "Book World"
likewise recalled running "a brief descriptive
                         mention" but no review of the Sack book, and
speculated that "it must have gotten lost with all those
                         other Holocaust books, but I assure you we
wouldn't have been influenced by The New Republic";
                         arts editor Ray Sokolov of the Wall Street
Journal acknowledged that no review has run or is planned,
                         but would say only that "it's not our policy to
discuss these matters"; Chris Porterfield, Time's cultural
                         editor when An Eye for an Eye was published,
felt that it might have "run afoul of our end-of-year
                         scheduling, when we do best-of lists and
children's books"; a Newsweek editor, who asked not to be
                         named, said the magazine has "300 books a week
to deal with," and though aware that Newsweek had
                         run a "Periscope" item on Sack's magazine flap,
had "no idea there was a book"; AP and Reuters
                         reporters, who'd interviewed Sack and promised
news stories on Morel, said "the daily crush" of fresh
                         news--Hillary's stone-walling on Whitewater,
Tonya's ice-skate guilty plea--and the "tiredness" of the
                         subject had doomed their coverage…

                         Every excuse was perfect.

===================================================
You can find the author at

http://www.johnsack.com

RLA



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Joel Rosenberg wrote:

> jhertzli@ix.netcom.com (Joseph Hertzlinger) writes:
>
> > On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:18:44 GMT, American Patriot
> >  wrote:
> >
> > >--
> > >"We don't believe free speech extends to Nazis or fascists or racists."
> > >
> > >- Leonard Zakim of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, as quoted in the
> > >Jewish Advocate (May 19, 1994)
> >
> > I have no reason to believe he speaks for the Jewish community.
>
> I think he speaks for many in the Jewish community, and it's
> understandable that he does, given the behavior of Nazis and fascists
> and racists.  It's still, however, not the law in the US; the
> Constitution protects those scum, as perhaps it should.

It protects you too Joel.  The Jewish student group at Binghamton University
in New York recently protested the planned visit of Hanan Ashrawi on the
grounds that it would cause trouble in the community.  They lost, but they
tried
to stifle her speech.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:01:46 EST 2001
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And all good Zionists and their sympathizers agree with you, no doubt.
There is no substantiation for your assertions, is there?
I thought not.
RLA

meshehu wrote:

> In article <96u18c$eqq@dispatch.concentric.net>, paulb14159@SPAMMMNOT.org
> (Paul B.) wrote:
>
> > "Israel's drive for a kind of Ottomanization of the region has been
> > noted by others, among them, Boaz Evron, who describes Sharon's
> > plan as "a revival of the Ottoman Empire's 'millet' system,". . .
> > In Lebanon, Evron continues, the plan is to set Maronites, Sunnite
> > and Shiite Muslims and Druze against one another. Israel will help
> > each group to maintain itself in the "perpetual civil wars" that
> > will result"
> >
> >    - Noam Chomsky, _The Fateful Triangle_
>
> Ahh, geez. Chomsky is a discreditable source of information if ever there
> was one. He's the furthest thing from objective there ever was and "The
> Fateful Triangle" is a perfect example of his "selective fact finding". He
> -only- cites publications that support his agenda and ignores any that
> don't.



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Subject: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In Germany
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Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In Germany

By Tony Paterson, in Berlin
http://www.telegraph.co.uk

London Daily telegraph | February 18, 2001

A book accusing American Jews of using the Nazi Holocaust to blackmail
Europe into making huge "exploitative" compensation payments has sold
more
than 50,000 copies in Germany following its publication here two weeks
ago.

The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein, a Jew whose parents were
Holocaust survivors, prompted a furious debate following its publication
in
English last summer when critics in America and Britain dismissed it as
"disgusting". A German version of the book has caused far greater
outrage.

Finkelstein believes that American Jews with the backing of Israel have
set
up a "Holocaust industry" to exploit Germany financially. Germany's
Jewish
leaders have called for the book to be banned while the German far-Right
and
neo-Nazi publications have welcomed the work as "proof" of a world-wide
Jewish conspiracy against Germany.

Finkelstein's promotional tour of Germany has attracted large audiences.
A
launch of his book at Berlin's Urania theatre was attended by more than
1,000 people. The weekly magazine Der Spiegel said: "Germany is in the
grip
of Holocaust madness. Finkelstein is being taken seriously. What he says

corresponds with what many who do not know the facts think."

In an interview, Finkelstein declared that "the Holocaust is a political

weapon. Germans have legitimate reasons to defend themselves against
this
abuse". Finkelstein, who describes himself as a Jewish atheist and
Left-wing
anti-Zionist who supports the Palestinian cause, has been ostracised by
the
American Jewish community for his views.

Publication of his book coincided with an opinion poll that showed that
65
per cent of Germans totally or partially agreed with Finkelstein's
assertion
that "Jewish organisations make exaggerated compensation demands on
Germany
to enrich themselves". 

From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:29 EST 2001
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Ahmed Issawi

Minority Report | February 19, 2001 The Nation
CHRISTOPHER HITCHENS



Wiesel Words




Is there a more contemptible poseur and windbag than Elie Wiesel? I
suppose
there may be. But not, surely, a poseur and windbag who receives (and
takes
as his due) such grotesque deference on moral questions. Look, if you
will,
at his essay on Jerusalem in the New York Times of January 24.



As a Jew living in the United States, I have long denied myself the
right to
intervene in Israel's internal debates.... My critics have their
conception
of social and individual ethics; I have mine. But while I grant them
their
right to criticize, they sometimes deny mine to abstain.


Such magnificent condescension, to grant his critics the right. And it
is not
certain from when Wiesel dates his high-minded abstention from Israel's
internal affairs; he was a member of Menachem Begin's Irgun in the
1940s,
when that force employed extreme violence against Arab civilians and was
more
than ready to use it against Jews. At all events, his dubious claim
above is
only a pompous preface to discarding nonintervention in the present
because
Jerusalem is at stake, and "the fact that I do not live in Jerusalem is
secondary; Jerusalem lives within me." (Again the modesty.) There are,
sad to
say, serpents in Wiesel's internal Eden, and they too must be
patronized:


That Muslims might wish to maintain close ties with this city unlike any

other is understandable. Although its name does not appear in the Koran,

Jerusalem is the third holiest city in Islam. But for Jews, it remains
the
first. Not just the first; the only.


"Might wish." "Ties." "Understandable." "Third holiest." Even these
lordly
and dismissive gestures clearly cost Wiesel something. After all, he
announces that the city is "mentioned more than 600 times in the Bible,"

which (assuming for a moment that one ought to think like a religious
fundamentalist in the first place) would give a Christian Arab--these
being
at least 15 percent of the Palestinian population--quite a strong claim
on
the old place. (Incidentally, let me ask any reader how often the city
is
mentioned in the Torah.) But for Wiesel all Arabs are Muslims, and even
if
they happen to live in Jerusalem, this is nothing to the way that
Jerusalem
dwells within Wiesel. Indeed, it would evidently dwell more comfortably
within him if they did not live in it at all. Do I exaggerate? I don't
think
so. In a propaganda tour of recent history, he asserts that in 1948,
"incited
by their leaders, 600,000 Palestinians left the country convinced that,
once
Israel was vanquished, they would be able to return home."

This claim is a cheap lie and is known by Wiesel to be a lie. It is
furthermore an utterly discredited lie, and one that Israeli officialdom
no
longer cares to repeat. Israeli and Jewish historians have exposed it
time
and again: Every Arab broadcasting station in the region, in 1947 as
well as
1948, was monitored and recorded and transcribed by the BBC, and every
Arab
newspaper has been scoured, and not one instance of such "incitement,"
in
direct speech or reported speech, has ever come to light. The late
historian
and diplomat Erskine Childers issued an open challenge on the point as
far
back as the 1950s that was never taken up and never will be. And of
course
the lie is a Big Lie, because Expulsion-Denial lies at the root of the
entire
problem and helps poison the situation to this day. (When Israel's
negotiators gingerly discuss the right of return, at least they don't
claim
to be arguing about ghosts, or Dead Souls.)

In a brilliant reply to Wiesel published in Vesti, Israel's largest
Russian-language paper, Israel Shamir compares him rather leniently not
to
Jabotinsky but to the Knight of the Doleful Countenance and his mad
quest for
purity:


Be reasonable, old man. Stay within the frame of the story and within
the
bounds of common decency. Don Quixote did not drive his jeep into Toboso
to
rape his old flame. OK, you loved her, and thought about her, but it
does
not give you the right to kill her children, bulldoze her rose garden
and
put your boots on her dining-room table.


Shamir speaks of the beautiful city that Palestinians centuries ago
"adorned
with a magnificent piece of jewelry, the Golden Dome of Haram al-Sharif,

built their houses with pointed arches and wide porches, and planted
cypresses and palm trees." He's wasting his time on Wiesel, who says
that
Palestine was a desert before he arrived there as one of Begin's thugs,
and
who slanders the people he helped dispossess, first by falsely saying
that
they ran away from their beloved ancestral hometown and second by
disputing
their right even to feel nostalgia for it.

In 1982, after Gen. Ariel Sharon had treated the inhabitants of the
Sabra and
Shatila amps as target practice for his paid proxies, Wiesel favored us
with
another of his exercises in neutrality. Asked by the New York Times to
comment on the pogrom, he was one of the few American Jews approached on
the
matter to express zero remorse. "I don't think we should even comment,"
he
said, proceeding to comment bleatingly that he felt "sadness-- with
Israel,
and not against Israel." For the victims, not even a perfunctory word.

As I write, it looks as if the same Sharon will become Israel's prime
minister. If you recall, he occupied West Beirut in September 1982,
after the
assassination of the Maronite Prime Minister Bashir Gemayel, on the
announced
and highly believable pretext that Palestinian civilians would need
protection from Phalangist reprisal. He then sent into their undefended
camps
the most extreme faction of the Phalangist militia and backed up the
dirty
work of these notorious fascists with flares during the night, and
rear-guard
cover during the day, for thirty-six hours before having them escorted
out in
triumph and thanked for their work. In other words, the bulk of US
overseas
military aid is about to be lavished on a man who stood with hands on
hip, in
belt and boots and steel helmet and binoculars, and saw a mound of human

corpses rise, and who thought it good. For this outcome, the soil has
been
manured by the beautiful thoughts of Elie Wiesel.




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Albert Reingewirtz wrote:

> In article <95fmsg$3as$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,  wrote:
>
> > http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1949e.htm
> > Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time
> > of War, Geneva, 12 August 1949
> > [...]
> >
> > ARTICLE 49
> >
> > Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of
> > protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the
> > Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are
> > prohibited, regardless of their motive.
>
> So? When are all the Americans leaving the USA?

You live here Albert.  Set the example.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:30 EST 2001
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You, of course, are lying.
RLA

Poul wrote:

> In article <95fmsg$3as$1@nnrp1.deja.com>,
>   billz3807@my-deja.com wrote:
> > http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/instree/1949e.htm
> > Convention (IV) relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time
> > of War, Geneva, 12 August 1949
> > [...]
> > ARTICLE 49
> > [...]
> > Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial
> > evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or
> > imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not
> involve
> > the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the
> occupied
> > territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid
> > such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to
> > their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have
> ceased.
>
> Good. When Palestinians will cease hostilities, we'll take them back.
> Marvelous.
>
> --
> Hope this helps.
> Regards,Poul A. Costinsky PoulCost@nospam.mail.com
> -No amount of learning can cure stupidity, and
> formal education positively fortifies it.
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/



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Of course no one knows who tihs poster is, or even if it is one person
or several.
RLA

Deborah wrote:

> Roger Alexander  wrote:
> > You, of course, are lying.
> > RLA
>
> Lying is what Roger Alexander does with every post.
>
> He is too much of a coward to deal in FACTS.
>
> Deborah
>
> Sent via Deja.com
> http://www.deja.com/



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:31 EST 2001
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Subject: Holocaust Religion and Holocaust Industry in the service of Israel : 
 Shraga Elam* 
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Enclosed is an article which will be published in the next issue of the
Israeli-Palestinian magazine "Between The Lines".
This article is relevant also  in the context of the present discussion
on Norman Finkelstein's book "The Holocaust Industry".

Shraga Elam

Holocaust Religion and Holocaust Industry in the service of Israel


Shraga Elam*

There can be no argument that Judeocide (1) during World War II played
and continues to play a major role in the Arab/Israeli conflict

On the one hand, it is a commonly held Arab position that Judeocide is
merely one of many bogus Zionist postures to manipulate world public
opinion.

On the other hand, most Zionists believe that this catastrophe (in
Hebrew, ‘shoa’) demonstrates beyond doubt the necessity of a Jewish
state; and had there been one during WWII, this genocide would not have
taken place.  Moreover, it is claimed that only a militarily strong
Israel which prevents such a catastrophe from recurring.

Each of the above positions is the result of the same distorted mode of
processing the past.  This mode can be called religious, even though the
usual definition of religion includes a god concept --- one which is
absent  in this discussion.  In all other ways, the necessary religious
characteristics are in place:


dogmas
commandments
rituals
shrines
prophets and priests
and, of course, economic/financial structures

One can, therefore, speak of a “Holocaust  Religion” and its “Satanic”
arch enemy, “Holocaust Denial”. A third way to deal with the Judeocide,
which should be defined as secular and scientific, is often  identified
with the "Holocaust Denial."

The use of the term “Holocaust”, which means "A burnt- sacrifice or
offering, the whole of which was consumed by fire"(2), reflects the
religious character of the dominant historiography of Judeocide(3).

Using the designation "Holocaust" for the extermination of the Jews
implies accordingly the absurdity that the Nazis scarified the Jews in a
kind of a religious ritual.

The birth of the Holocaust Religion is considered to have been triggered
by  the trial in Jerusalem of the Nazi criminal Adolf Eichmann in 1961.
This show-trial was a spectacle meant to get the Jewish Israeli public
mainly the then youngest generation acquainted with the Judeocide.

The trial did not succeed in achieving this aim not because this
middle-ranking SS-officer, Eichman, was not adequate  to represent the
whole extermination machinery.  Nor was the failure due to the
impossibility of reducing the nazi monstrous system to a single
individual.

The fundamental reason for the failure must be attributed to the central
Zionist tenet: the “Negation of the Diaspora” a recurrent theme which
made it very difficult for the young Jewish-Israelis to identify
themselves with European Jewry.

Several generations of Israeli Jews were brought up to loathe Jewish
existence abroad. in fact, Jewish way of life in Europe, for example,
was viewed as sick and to be overcome through Zionism.  Young
Jewish-Israelis were brain-washed, through the late 70’s, to internalize
typical Christian European prejudices against Jews and thus did not want
to identify themselves with their own grandparents or even their
parents, who had not resisted oppression in Europe.

It is precisely owing to their role as victimizers that, even now, it is
easier for Israeli soldiers to identify with the Nazis than with their
own ancestors --- the victims.  Example: in 1982 after the bombing of
Beirut and putting the city under siege, Israeli soldiers disgusted at
what they had just done, told an excited and adoring German journalist
who wanted to know how they were feeling: “we have just created a Warsaw
ghetto.”

Even though Eichmann's trial did not achieve the desired effect inside
Israel, its impact abroad was enormous. Elie Wiesel, a former
concentration camp inmate, who came to Jerusalem to report on the
process,  subsequently initiated a religious modality for handling the
Judeocide.  This religion was to become very dominant in the ensuing
years.   It came  to be accepted by not only by most Jews but also many
non-Jews, especially in the industrialized countries.   It was to
become  one of the most important tools of the Israeli propaganda
machinery.

The relevancy of the Holocaust Religion to the Middle East conflict
cannot be overlooked. Its real breakthrough according to the Jewish
theologian Marc Ellis, who defines it rather as a theology, came through
the Israeli victory in 1967(4).

"Holocaust theology yields three themes that exist in dialectical
tension: suffering and empowerment, innocence and redemption,
specialness and normalization(5)"

After this war there was according to this analysis a kind of a
religious messianic salvation. The Judeocide and the big 'threat' to
Israel in 1967 are the suffering. The building of the State of Israel
and especially the victory of 1967 are the redemption.

Of course Zionism lost its innocence long before 1967.  Already in the
1930’s, David Ben Gurion, the most important Zionist leader, realized
the huge potential in Judeocide as he brought these religious elements
together into a simple direct political motto for the
instrumentalization of the Jewish sufferings in Europe. He declared:
"Catastrophe is Power."  Which means the Zionist movement should find
ways to profit politically and financially from the agony. Yet the
catastrophe  became a real source of political power only after Israel
became a military success in 1967. Which means, a catastrophe as such is
not necessarily a source of power. One  must be powerful in order to be
able to use and abuse a disaster.

In their book "Dangerous Liasion"(6) ,  Andrew and Leslie Cockburn
describe how only after 1967 did Israel become  attractive to the US
military establishment. Though Israel had, before that time, a burning
desire to work for Washington, the US was not enthusiastic until Israel
demonstrated its strength on the battlefield..

The  journalist J.J. Goldberg(7) argues that the Jewish lobby became
strong only after 1967. AIPAC the most known lobby became influential
through the Israeli importance for the US foreign policy and not the
other way around. This claim sounds very plausible when one considers
that the American Jewish organizations were not able to convince the
Roosevelt administration to be more helpful towards European Jewry
during the Nazi era(8). Although,  for example, the New York Times was
in Jewish ownership it did not darem just like the mainstream US Jewish
organizations, to oppose  the anti-Jewish policy of the State
Department. The lobby to establish a Zionist state in Palestine was
anyway more effective than the one to save the Jews. This was the line
dictated by Ben Gurion and executed by his delegate Abba Hillel Silver.

The Zionist influence at that period was less strong than perceived
through  the Arab lens. Still the leadership of  the Jewish agency (JA),
i.e., the government-in-formation, headed by the Zionist Labor movement,
started very early to cash in on the Nazi persecutions of the Jews. This
"Holocaust Industry"(9) had been founded even before the Judeocide was
really launched.

In the mid 30's the JA reached a deal with the Nazis, the so called
Ha'avara agreement, which helped the Zionist movement not only to
attract to Palestine very wealthy investors, but to get direct control
of some of their money.  According to the this arrangement,  rich Jews
could get some of their properties out of Germany if they immigrated  to
Palestine and the Jewish Agency received a nice commission from these
deals. This arrangement was, among others, the result of  strong Nazi
support for the Zionist project, since corresponding with the Zionist
aims the main German objective at that time was to expel the Jews from
Europe. This  policy coincided with the Zionist aims(10).

The collaboration with the Nazis brought the Zionists the much needed
capital for the colonization of Palestine ($40 million, which were "60%
of capital invested in Palestine between 1933 and the war"(11). This
agreement practically saved  the Zionist movement in Palestine from
bankruptcy  argues the journalist Lenni Brenner.

The JA came thus to be the largest agent for German goods in the Middle
East and sabotaged Jewish efforts to declare a boycott against the
Nazis.

THIS  fruitful cooperation between the Nazis and the Zionists came to an
end in 1938 following Arab insurrections. After which the British  tried
to stop Jewish Immigration into Palestine. Besides the German faction,
which sought an anti-British alliance with the Arabs got stronger and
blocked the export to Palestine  of  goods so needed at home.

Still the pro-Zionist Nazi factions  (Eichmann was  a part of them) kept
their contacts with the Jewish Agency. According to the coordinator of
the Zionist activities in occupied Europe, Nathan Dror-Schwalb, his
people were working together with Eichmann in 1938 as he expelled the
Austrian Jews(12). Zionist delegates, according to Schwalb, could
operate without disturbance in Germany throughout the war and organize
their cells of the youth movement Hehalutz(13).

According to the Israeli historian S. Beit-Zvi the JA-leadership did not
hesitate to sabotage rescue efforts.  This happened after it became
clear, that the British  would not allow a Jewish mass immigration to
Palestine. Beit-Zvi argues that the JA-leadership was afraid that a
large number of Jews would be saved and sent to some other destinations
rather than Palestine.  This development was considered a political and
economic danger (!) to the Zionist project, as it would absorb resources
needed to establish the state and would weaken the Zionist claim that
Palestine is the only possible refuge for Jews(14).

According to Beit-Zvi,  Golda Meir was responsible for sabotaging the
concrete chances of rescue of the refugees  which was discussed at
conference of Evian in 1938. Beit-Zvi claims that this was the real
reason why this famous conference actually failed.

In a very famous speech Ben Gurion formulated the JA rescue policy as
follow:

"If I knew that it would be possible to save all the children in Germany
by bringing them over to England, and only half of them by transporting
them to Eretz Yisrael, then I would opt for the second alternative. For
we must weigh not only the life of these children, but also the history
of the People of Israel."(15)

Ben-Gurion's apologists have tried to  explain away this quotation. But
an objective examination of the following activities of the JA, the
protocols of JA-leadership  and the factual low priority it gave to
rescue operations,  can only confirm the claim that this speech was
emblematic of this attitude  and that it basically never changed even
after the scope of the catastrophe became clear(16).

In the case of the Hungarian Jews, the charge of direct collaboration of
the Labor party controlled JA leadership with the Nazis is raised by
both Jewish Antizionists and Ultra-Zionists (Likud and the radical
right). The Zionist representative, Israel Kastner is accused of making
possible the efficient deportation of half a million Jews to Auschwitz
through the cooperation of his committee with Eichmann. The defenders
of Kastner argue that he actually tried to save the Jews through
negotiating with the Nazis. Even if this claim is true, it is beyond
discussion that these negotiations were sabotaged by the JA-leadership,
the mainstream Jewish organizations in the USA and also by  the Allies.

Another Israeli historian, Idith Zertal, claims that Ben Gurion was
already before WWII mainly interested in the rescue operations only  for
the national purposes. The saving of persecuted Jews was to be used
primarily a means of pressure on the British Empire to abolish its
immigration restrictions on Jewish immigration to Palestine. But even
for these purposes, there were hardly any meaningful rescue activities
during the war. There were very few Zionist delegates to coordinate such
operations and they had hardly any financial resources to be effective.

According to Zertal the spectacular actions of the illegal immigration
after the war, like the famous trip of the "Exodus", were mainly part of
a very effective propaganda campaign.  The Jewish organization "Joint"
claimed at that time, that the total number of immigrants including the
illegal ones was smaller than British quota. This means that if the
Jewish refugees would have been transported to Palestine legally, under
normal conditions, it would have been cheaper, more comfortable and
safer for them than using the shaky illegal ships and their number would
not necessarily have been lower.  But by using this legal way, the JA
would have lost the propaganda effects of the pictures of British
soldiers using excessive amount of force against Jewish survivors(17).

Though the Zionist leadership was not very active in saving Jews (to say
the least), it started already during WWII to prepare a restitution
campaign.  The JA felt itself empowered to make claims on Jewish
properties without being bothered by such trivialities like whether or
not the legitimate owners or their heirs were still alive(18).

The Zionist project needed a lot of money and therefore it is not
surprising that the JA did not have too many ethical considerations when
they endeavored to save Nazi war criminals, that is,  if  the Nazis
could pay enough for it. Thus the SS officer responsible for the robbery
of the Hungarian Jewry, Kurt Becher,  and some of his friends were saved
. The aforementioned  Israel Kastner was sent in 1948 by the Israeli
finance minister to Germany to save these Nazis from trial. In return,
Becher gave orders to his Swiss trustee to transfer money to the Jewish
Agency(19).

This was also the case of the important Nazi agent, Jaac van Harten,
whose money financed in 1945/46 the illegal Jewish immigration to
Palestine and acquisitions of weapons . Van Harten was crucial for the
flight of Nazis out of Europe, but the agents of the Mossad Le'Aliyah
Beth(20) who protected him, could not care less. He himself found refuge
later in Tel Aviv, where he got the protection of no less than Golda
Meir, the de-facto foreign minister at that time (1947). Till the 60's
Van Harten kept contacts with his former Nazi boss, Friedrich Schwend,
who was then working in Peru with other famous Nazis like Josef Mengele
and Klaus Barbie. Schwend was considered to be a kind of finance
minister of the planned Fourth Reich (21).

The Zionist movement succeeded after WWII in getting restitution
illegitimately  in the name of the Nazi victims. At the last stages of
the war  representatives of the Jewish Agency gathered Jewish properties
and were nominated as recipient for such assets at the Paris Reparation
Conference (1945/46).  The larger amount of money began to flow in the
50's as the USA intensified its efforts to reintegrate West Germany in
its Cold War strategy. A German researcher reports about a meeting in
Switzerland between the German CHANCELLOR Konrad Adenauer and the
Israeli President Haim Weizmann. In this meeting Adenauer agreed to pay
compensations if Israel would give it consent for the rearmament of West
Germany(22).

These restitution monies were very crucial for building the Israeli
economy and military. Most probably the victory of 1967 would not have
been possible without this support.

After 1967 the  influence of the Holocaust Industry and the Holocaust
Religion increased as a result of the ever growing importance of Israel
in terms of  US interests. The Holocaust Religion was able to achieve a
growing control over the public opinion in Western countries. Its
influence in the 90's reached an unexpected climax.

Steven Spielberg's film "Schindler's list" and the ceremonies
commemorating the Jubilee of the end of WWII functioned like a trigger
for this outburst. As an outcome of this memory-explosion the Holocaust
Industry was in position to launch in 1995 a very effective restitution
campaign against the Swiss banks, which now HAS been expanded to include
other countries. It was a mixture of a just claim, presented by the
wrong organizations for the wrong purposes, but fed through a fear of
the mythological 'Jewish Power' and its overestimated influence on the
US government. Of course the Jewish organizations got the support of
Clinton's administration in this campaign, but it is not clear how far
the US would have gone on this issue against the Swiss banks. Thus the
Swiss became 'victims' of their own prejudices against the Jews.

>From a rather unimportant organization looking for an issue, with this
Swiss help, the World Jewish Congress and the affiliated organizations
came to be a very influential factor. The undertaking has brought till
now some $9 billion and the story is not yet over.

Israel itself tries not to be involved directly in this campaign,  in
order not to get into any diplomatic complications with friendly
countries like  Switzerland. Instead the World Jewish Congress (WJC),
the Jewish Claims Conference (JCC) and some other organizations are
leading  the activities. Israel just hopes in one way or another to get
its share in any eventual booty.  For example, after a certain
compensation for  survivors was paid by Switzerland, the Israeli
government tried to cut the social security support to the  Israeli
recipients commensurate with what they’d receive from Switzerland. A
step which means, that actually the money from Switzerland would have
gone to state of Israel and not to the victims.

In the meantime there is much more money in the restitution funds, but
its distribution is delayed (Israel belongs to the slowest distributors)
and the survivors have the feeling that the Jewish organizations
'representing' them, are just waiting for more of them to die, so that
the funds will be distributed for other purposes.

The survivors and the legitimate owners of robbed properties realized
too late that their interests are being abused by the leading Jewish
organizations (all of them with a strong Zionist influence). These
survivors are too weak and too old to fight effectively against the
mighty jet-setters of organized Jewry.

There was a series of articles in various papers in Israel, Switzerland,
Germany and USA demonstrating how the most important restitution
organization, the Jewish Claims Conference, is robbing the legitimate
heirs, as  Joseph Wolff  describes. Wolff, a former director of the
Israeli oil firm Paz, after learning about the cruelty of the JCC,
decided to try to help the twice victimized people. The efforts of this
influential and well connected person did not help much and till today
there is not much clarity regarding the activities of the JCC. No
outsider knows how much money it controls, how much is distributed, who
are the recipients etc.

The attacks of the US political scientist Norman Finkelstein against the
JCC in his book "The Holocaust Industry" irritate the organized Jewry
but  in  the short run do no more than that. This is because Finkelstein
did not invest enough energy in the complicated  investigations needed
to prove his claims.

In a web-site "The Survivors vs. the Holocaust Industry"(23),  several
old survivors have tried to initiate the struggle against the JCC, but
they are not very optimistic, as they do not have funds to finance the
fight against the mighty organizations.

They protest against the injustices and demand that they should be able
to decide how the money should be  allocated.

The protesting survivors claim that the Jewish organizations are very
slow in  distributing the monies and that they are just wait till all of
will die. They note that actually each and every month 1,000 survivors
around the world die.

The survivor Gerhard Maschkowski who is among the leaders of this
struggle writes:

"After the war ended in 1945, Holocaust survivors were treated shabbily;
most were forced to live in Displaced Persons Camps in Europe as the
world was forced to deal with stateless character of the Jewish people
until the founding of the State of Israel in 1948 [he seems to forget to
mention explicitly the role of the Jewish Agency in this postponement.
The JA used once again the sufferings of the survivors as a political
instrument - se].  Later, the "reparations and restitution" efforts
established ostensibly for the benefit of Holocaust survivors in the
United States, were inadequate and arbitrarily administered, resulting
in a legacy of frustration and humiliation for American survivors.
Today's abandonment is occurring in the context of settlements of class
actions and disputes over Swiss bank accounts, looted Nazi gold, Nazi
use of Jewish slave laborers, and European insurers' theft of Jews'
insurance policies.  While the headlines cry with large dollar figures
purporting to represent compensation for Holocaust victims, and the box
quotes are full of lavish praise and gratitude for the settlements "as
we enter a new millennium," the truth is, the interests of Holocaust
survivors have received the lowest priority in these negotiations. From
every perspective, the deals fall short of rendering meaningful justice
or dignity to those who were victimized. [...] the agreement were struck
to provide immunity for vast numbers of European corporations that
profited from the Holocaust, in most cases, without a true accounting
for their World War II actions(24)"

This last point is demonstrated perfectly by the Interhandel affair, the
scandal of the foreign assets of the largest Nazi chemical combine IG
Farben, who among other things produced the gas for the extermination of
the Jews. These assets should have been confiscated already during WWII
and be used for the rehabilitation of war refugees, for example. This
did not happen, because Corporate America was interested  in protecting
these funds  and the Swiss authorities and some banks were willing to
help. This money estimated to be of a present value of at least $5
billion, was in the 60's after a long legal fight misappropriated by the
largest Swiss bank, Union Bank of Switzerland, (today United Bank of
Switzerland - UBS) and the US government under Kennedy(25).  In 1995 I
discovered in the Swiss federal archives highly classified documents
proving clearly the dubious role of the UBS and the Swiss government in
this affair(26).

The Jewish organizations leading the restitution campaigns show an
ostensive disinterest in this large amount of money stemming from the
most important Nazi combine, whose direct involvement in the crimes in
Auschwitz is well known. Recently an employee of the JCC confirmed  my
suspicions and said that the organizations do not want to raise the
issue in order not to hurt the US interests involved.

It is safe to argue that neither the Holocaust Industry nor Israel have
ever really represented the interests of the Judeocide victims, although
they  keep trying to create this impression that they do. This lie
serves Israel in many ways. It guarantees today the support of most of
the Jews, who feel that Israel is their redemption in the possible hour
of their need, a kind of a insurance against possible dangers.  With the
Holocaust Religion, its institutions and priests it is possible to block
an all too radical critique against Israel and its crimes against the
Palestinians.  Thus the Palestinians actually become indirectly victims
of the Nazis.  The Holocaust Industry helps to finance the aggressions
against them and the Holocaust Religion assists in creating  a negative
public opinion of them. Thus the Palestinians have to pay the price for
German crimes and Western hypocrisy.

The exposure of the Zionist abuse of Judeocide, is therefore an
important element in the efforts to reach a real and just peace in the
Middle East.


Box:
Similar to the formulations of Israeli philosopher Adi Ophir the dogmas
of this Holocaust Religion can usefully be articulated as religious
commandments :


Remember  what Amalek has done to thee!

This compulsory directive is meant to cultivate and preserve for ever
and ever  the memory of all the wrongdoings of Amalek against the Jews.
Amalek is the biblical collective designation for all the enemies of the
Jews, who, in the 20th century become to be mainly the Nazis and the
Arabs.  It is in this sense not only a command to remember but also to
distrust and hate the non-Jews, the gentiles. This attitude is based on
the concept that the hate of the Jews, Judeophobia(27), is inherent in
all other cultures. Any questioning of the real danger for the Jews in
Europe or North America, for example, is considered  blasphemy.
Organizations like the Anti Defamation League (ADL) are zealously
pursuing the supposed and the real sinners. Activities like that of ADL
together with the everlasting commemorations of  Judeocide are important
elements for building the modern Jewish identity, especially for the
secular Jews.  Another consequence of this commandment  is that the Jews
are to be considered as the eternal victims. So even if they are the
victimizers they are still to be conceived as victims.


Thou shall never compare The Holocaust with any other Genocide!

The uniqueness of the Judeocide is a modern version of the old
judeocentric  concept of "choseness".  Jewish sufferings are special,
cannot and must never be compared with other miseries.
This commandment is very important for the mythologizing of the
Judeocide and for preventing a normal historical analysis, as one of the
common and important scientific method is the comparison.

This commandment  is very successful in the Western countries where the
Judeophobia  has a very long tradition and is still common. The
contemporary manifestation of the prejudices against Jews is sometimes
very  ingenious.  It camouflages  itself in an allegedly opposite
attitude, "Judeophilia", a kind of 'positive' racism.  The
transformation from one to the other is often seamless.


Thou shall never compare the nazi crimes with those of Israel!

Though on the whole, Isreali crimes are not yet comparable to nazi
crimes,  there are certain tendencies that must be recognized before
they become full-fledged reality.  Parallels therefore should not,
a-priori,  be  ignored.  For example, the potential for technocrats,
officers etc. to commit crimes is not some specific Nazi characteristic
but is endemic  to all modern system.


 No causal  relationships between the Judeocide and the Palestinian
tragedy are allowed

Every attempt to point out such a connection is considered to be a kind
of Holocaust-denial.


 Thou shall never  doubt the number of 6 million Jewish victims!

There is no real logical explanation for this figure’s being defended so
desperately.  The source of this statistic, the SS officer Wilhelm
Hoettl(28), was certainly not the most reliable informant.  If  the
number of the slaughtered Jews were 500,000 less , would the Nazi crimes
be less dreadful?


 Thou shall never doubt the right of Israel to exist as the Jewish
state!

As the Judeophobia will persist for ever, the Jews will need from now to
eternity a secure refuge. Therefore so many Jews who live in a greater
security outside Israel, still believe that this country should function
as a kind of anti-Judeocide insurance, even though the policy is paid
with Palestinian blood. Therefore is every anti-Zionist per this
definition a supporter of a potential Judeocide and is a Judeophobe.


Thou shall not  criticize the leading Jewish organizations and the
Israeli government!

This commandment is reasoned by the above arguments. A career oriented
politician, journalist or artist in Western countries will usuall prefer
to remain silent on these issues in publicm as the potential punishment
is viewed as very painful.

This commandment, like some others on this list, applies mainly to
non-Jews, but radical Jewish critics risk being branded as self-haters.


Thou must never criticize Jewish organizations and the Zionist
leadership for abandoning the European Jewry in the Nazi era!

Most of the attempts to raise this issue are blocked by the argument
that it will strengthen the Judephobes, who claim that the Jews alone
bear the guilt for their fate in WWII.

Without trying to minimize  the responsibility of the Nazis for their
crimes, one should take into account the behavior of a segment of the
Jewish community, most especially its leadership, inside and outside
occupied Europe. The victims have also a duty and responsibility and the
tragedy is always greater if a leadership betrays its own people. For
all practical purposes,  the Zionist leadership in Palestine and in the
USA abandoned European Jewry(29), and in certain cases sabotaged rescue
attempts(30) and in some other cases even collaborated with the
Nazis(31).


Thou shall not  doubt the central Role of Hitler in the
industrialization of the extermination of the Jews.

The fact that there is no proof for an Hitler's order to build Auschwitz
is one of the most emotional historical disputes.  Even logical
non-Hitler-centric descriptions are often labeled as Holocaust Denial.
This is one of the methods of preventing  a political secular
explanation of the Judeocide. One of the reasons for this commandment is
that any other explanation implies that there was a real possibility of
saving  the Jews and therefore the Zionist movement and the Allies are
guilty of abandoning them.


--------------

*Shraga Elam is an Israeli investigative journalist based in
Zurich/Switzerland. He specializes in historical researches about the
role of Jewish organizations and Switzerland during the Nazi era.

(1) Judeocide was coined by Prof. Arno Mayer instead of "Holocaust"
because of the religious character of the latter. See Arno J. Mayer, Why
Did the Heavens Not Darken?,  Pantheon, New York, 1988.
(2) Webster's 1828 Dictionary
(3) This is basically Mayer's argument
(4) Marc H. Ellis, Beyond Innocence & Redemption -Confronting The
Holocaust And Israeli Power Creating a Moral Future for the Jewish
People, Harper & Row, San Francisco, 1990
(5) Ellis p. 2
(6) Andrew and Leslie Cockburn,  Dangerous Liaison: The Inside Story of
the U.S.-Israeli Covert Relationship, Harper Collins  l991
(7) J. J. Goldberg, JEWISH POWER - Inside the American Establishment,
Addison-Wesley, Reading, Massachusetts, 1996,
(8) See e.g., David S. Wyman, The Abandonment of the Jews,  America and
the Holocaust, 1941-1945; Pantheon Books, New York 1984
(9) The phrase "Holocaust Industry" was not invented but popularized by
Norman Finkelstein through  his book: The Holocaust Industry Reflections
on the Exploitation  of Jewish Suffering.  Verso, New York, 2000
(10) See E.g. Francis R. Nicosia,  The Third Reich and the Palestine
Question, University of Texas Press, Austin, 1985
(11) Lenni Brenner, Zionism and Rescue, in Jim Allen, Perdition, Ithaca
Press 1987,  p. 74
(12) Interview of the author with Schwalb in 1993.
(13) See Nathan Dror-Schwalb's archives and Ferdinand Kroh, David
kämpft. Vom jüdischen Widerstand gegen Hitler, Reinbek 1988.
(14) S.B. Beit-Zwi: Post-Ugandian Zionism in the Crisis of the
Holocaust. Tel Aviv 1977 (Heb.) 1991 (eng.)
(15) Out of a Ben-Gurion speech in London in 1938,  Brenner in Perdition
p. 76
(16) See Tom Segev , but also the Israeli historian Yechiam Weitz who
tries to defend the JA in his book Aware but Helpless: Mapai and the
Holocaust, 1943-1945 Yad Izhak Ben-Zvi Press, Jerusalem 1994 (Heb.),
proves the opposite of his claim.
(17) Idith Zertal From Catastrophe to Power : Holocaust survivors and
the emergence of Israel, Berkeley : University of California Press,
c1998
(18)  For a description of the restitution campaign see Nana Sagi,
German Reparations - A History of the Negotiations, St. Martin’s Press,
New York, 1986,
(19) See Shraga Elam, Hitlers Faelscher - wie juedische, amerikanische
und Schweizer Agented der SS beim Falschgeldwaschen halfen (Hitler's
Forgers - how Jewish, US and Swiss Agents helped the SS to launder
forged money), Ueberreuter, Vienna, 2000.
(20) The organization for illegal immigration
(21) See Elam,  Hitlers Faelscher and Ha'aretz of 28.4.2000 and
19.5.2000
(22) Rudolf Jungnickel, Kabale am Rhein -Der Kanzler und sein
Monsignore, Wartburg Verlag, Weimar 1994. p. 451 ff.
(23) http://home.att.net/~gerhardm/compensation.html
(24) http://home.att.net/~gerhardm/abandonment.txt
(25) See e.g. Joseph Borkin, The Crime and Punishment of I.G. Farben.
The Startling Account of the Unholy Alliance of Adolf Hitler and
Germany's Great Chemical Combine, The Free Press, New York 1978.
(26) Shraga Elam, "Interhandel" - eine Saga ohne Ende - Wie das
Auslandsvermoegen der "I.G. Farben" ins Eigenkapital der
"Schweizerischen Bankgesellschaft" kam", in Sebastian Speich (ed.) - Die
Schweiz am Pranger, Ueberreuter/Cash Vienna/Zurich 1997.
(27)  The term Judeophobia is to be preferred to "anti-Semitism". As
anti-Semitism is on itself a racist designation which was created by one
of the inventor the Nazi ideology, Wilhelm Marr in 1879. The Jews might
be many things but for sure no race and in so far that there is
something like a Semitic race, the Arab belong to it as well.
(28)  The figures are contained in an affidavit made by Dr. Wilhelm
Hoettl  and presented in the Nuremberg Trial (Document 2738-PS, Exhibit
USA-296). Hoettl quoted Eichmann as the source of the information and
saved his own life through this testimony.
(29) See e.g., David S. Wyman, The Abandonment of the Jews,  America and
the Holocaust, 1941-1945; Pantheon Books, New York 1984 and Tom Segev
The Seventh Million - Israel Confronts the Holocaust, Hill & Wang 1993.
(30) See e.g., S.B. Beit-Zvi.
(31) See e.g., Lenni Brenner, Zionism in the Age of the Dictators. A
reappraisal. Croom Helm, London 1983  and Shraga Elam Hittlers Fälscher,
Ueberreuter Verlag, 2000.





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:31 EST 2001
Article: 529071 of soc.culture.jewish
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Joel Rosenberg wrote:

> davic@erols.com (David Goldman) writes:
>
> > >I assume you are talking about the occupation regime of the "Palestinian
> > >Authority", occupying the historic land of the Jewish people, and brutally
> > >murdering Jews just because they are Jewish.
> >
> > So you advocate continuing to provoke the Arabs by turning Gaza and
> > Hebron into the Lodz and Warsaw ghettos, huh?????
>
> Even someone so clueless as you, David, should notice that Gaza is
> completely open -- at least as far as Israeli control is concerned --
> on the Egyptian side, and that Hebron is controlled by Arafat's gang,
> except for the few security arrangements necessary to protect the Jews
> living there.

Those "few security arrangements" in Hebron entail keeping the entire city under
the thumb of the Israeli military.  Get real.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:31 EST 2001
Article: 529073 of soc.culture.jewish
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>From time to time I post on Hank Roth's lists.  In particular, he has a list
called Zionism,
on which he posts propaganda of the rankest sort.  He states as fact that no
Arabs were
expelled from Palestine, that Arabs in Israel have identical civil rights as
Jews and other such
falsehoods.  I posted a couple of articles to the contrary, and was met with
hostility,
so I have more or less quit.  It is fair to say that Roth is a committed
Zionist, with His love
for Israel overriding his native intelligence where the two conflict.
RLA

TheGolem wrote:

> From: Subject: Re: [ZIONISM] INTIFADA PLANNED...I would HOPE it was!!!
> Zionism Forum -> http://pnews.org/signup.shtml
> /------------------------------------------------------------------------\
>            PEOPLE BEFORE PROFITS! ****  ONE PERSON ONE VOTE!
>  "From Each According To Their Ability, To Each According To Their Needs"
> \-------------------------------------------------------------------------/
>
> >From another list.. My fellow Jews. Whether you consider yourself a
> Zionist or not, or a liberal or socialist, know that, it won't and doesn't
> matter because Anti-Semitism, disguised as anti-Zionism is a virulent and
> insideous form of hatred and the world's hatemongers will never be
> satisfied until the last Jew draws his or her last breath. Believe it. I
> grew up in the South and experienced anti-Semitism in Florida and Ga in
> military school and in the North when I was in the Army. I had friends who
> sold property to blacks in Davie and were murdered by the KKK for doing
> so. I sponsored a black woman to get her real estate license and was
> threatened and had a cross burned in my yeard by the KKK. I had a German
> Shepard cut to the bone with a tobacco knife in Western N.C. because I had
> the audacity to send my Jewish kids to their school and I was told I was
> not welcome in hotels and motels when I was a kid because they were
> "restricted" and no Jews were allowed. There is no escaping it. And, we
> spoke out against Apartheid and were supported by good blacks like Martin
> Luther King, but then came along Black Nationalism and a new greed of
> blacks who needed a scape goat.
>
> The following comments posted by Butler is a typical example of Black hate
> who would like to see Zionist killed. This is a 32 year old Black man in
> New York, who I assure you from his many comments on this list and others,
> blames the Jews, i.e. Zionists no less than Arabs who preach from the
> "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" in their schools in the West Bank and
> Gaza -- as is done in many of Israel's neigboring Arab countries. While
> pathetic for his bankrupt ideology (a fascist type socialism), he a mirror
> image of many other African-Americans who is from a culture which must
> find a scapegoat, someone to blame for their failing to confront the
> system and overcome adversity as we have in many instances done as Jews.
>
>  TheGolem
>  http://pnews.org/
> --
>  SOCIALIST-ZIONISM LISTSERVER Conference at St Johns University ->
> http://pnews.org/signup.shtml
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> Date: Sun, 04 Feb 2001 17:48:38 -0000
> From: gangbox@excite.com
>
> Hello, PNews Golem, this list's resident ZionistNazi and Jewish Anti
> Blackist:
>
> First of all, "socialist Zionist" is an OXYMORON, because YOU CAN'T
> BE A "SOCIALIST" IF YOU ARE A NATIONALIST, especially A RACIST
> NATIONALIST.
>
> Second of all, real socialists, and real communists, HAVE NO PROBLEM
> WITH THE USE OF VIOLENCE TO ACHIEVE SOCIAL CHANGE.
>
> After all, the CAPITALISTS use violence, and the implied threat of
> violence, to achieve THEIR AIMS, so, it's only intellegent for us to
> do the same.
>
> Golem, you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about, because I'm quite
> sure that you, like all Zionist Jewish Anti Blackist Racists, are a
> ferverant supporter of ISRAELI DEFENCE FORCES VIOLENCE AGAINST ARABS,
> AND NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT VIOLENCE AGAINST BLACKS.
>
> As for the Intefada being planned, or not, I don't know, and it
> really isn't relevant.
>
> But, I SUPPORT THE PALESTINIANS 10,000 % AND I HOPE THEY WIN, AND I
> FURTHER HOPE THAT THEY KILL MANY ZIONISTS IN THE PROCESS.
>
> FRATERNALLY,
> GREGORY A. BUTLER, LOCAL 608 CARPENTER,
>
> /------------------  Click Here to Help Yourself   --------------------\
>       No effort/no-brainer way to generate income from your website.
>     http://www.websponsors.com/cgi-bin/referral.cgi?username=thegolem
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>   \--------------------------------------------------------------------/
>      332 message board forums at: http://pnews.org/mall/mb.html
>   TEN (PNEWS)"progressive news & views" LISTSERVER Forums [Since 82]
>  Forum Descriptions - signup/signoff at: ->http://pnews.org/signup.shtml
>                       TheGolem ** http://pnews.org/
> \------------------------------------------------------------------------/



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:32 EST 2001
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Given that you Zionists are racist to the core, that you put up the most
Godawful
lying propaganda, and are the most determined group to prevail with your
lies anywhere on the Net, or off for that matter, this remark comes with ill
grace.
RLA

Larry R wrote:

> The most important thing in communication is hearing what is not being said.
> You racists seem to be losing your voices as more and more people in this
> newsgroup begin to show up your ignorance by answering your bullshit with
> truth.
> Tell us, how does it feel to always be on the losing end?
> LARRY R.
>
> "tclock"  wrote in message
> news:t8lmfgkr0r9pd0@corp.supernews.com...
> > "David Goldman"  wrote in message
> > news:3a89c938.7097870@news.rcn.com...
> > > Zionist blah, blah, blah: Peace with Security?
> > >
> > Which makes a lovely bookend for "ArabWorld surrogates, Palestinian Arabs,
> > blah, blah, blah: The Right to Return".
> >
> > t.
> >
> >



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:32 EST 2001
Article: 529725 of soc.culture.jewish
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Subject: Gaza Community Mental Health Program work is disrupted : a plea
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GCMHP's work is disrupted
Over the past few days, the Israeli army escalated its aggression
against the Palestinian people in the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.
Sadly, these measures are typical Israeli, indiscriminate, collective
punishment against civilian population to which we have become
accustomed. However, the latest measure are characterized by
unprecedented severity both in their effect Palestinian's lives, and in
their disregard for the most basic human rights.

Since Monday, the Israeli army has imposed a strict siege on the Gaza
Strip and closed all points of entry or exit from the Strip. Moreover,
it has divided the Strip into 4 separate areas. Citizens, basic goods,
and medical supplies are prevented from entering the Gaza Strip or
moving between these areas. In addition, the army has taken severe
measures against civilians as exemplified by shooting a 52-year old
farmer in his grove. The effects of this siege and separation have
paralyzed daily life in the Gaza Strip.

At GCMHP, we have felt the effects of these inhumane measures. Our
clinics in Gaza, Jabalia, Deir El-Balah, and Khan Younis have been cut
off, and staff members working in those clinics but living in different
areas have not been able to reach them. In addition, patients in areas
that have been sealed off are denied access to the clinics.

Dr. Eyad El-Sarraj, the Chairman of the Board, is unable to come back to
Palestine. Dr. Ahmad Abu Tawahina, the Executive Director, is unable to
come to the Programme Headquarter in Gaza, as he is a resident of Deir
El-Balah. The pharmacist in our Gaza clinic is prevented from reaching
the clinic, as he is a resident of Nuseirat refugee camp. A number of
secretaries as well as the nanny in the Programme’s nursery have been
unable to report to work for several days due to the forced separation.

Our training activities have also been hindered. Many of the students
and trainers of the post-graduate diploma in community mental health and
human rights live in areas that are separated from Gaza City. They are
unable to conduct their schedule of lectures, practical training, and
supervision. Also, the research department is paralyzed since the
secretary and field workers cannot report to work. Moreover, the Women’s
Empowerment branches in Deir El-Balah and Rafah are cut off from the
main center in Gaza City.

The patients are not responsible for the bombings in Israel and neither
are the professionals at GCMHP or other organizations. If Israel puts
the whole population responsible for the acts of individuals it is
unable to apprehend, then the whole Israeli society is responsible for
the massacres its army is committing in Gaza and the West Bank. It is a
sick logic that Israel feels free to use, while blaming others when they
do likewise.

We call upon all the voices of humanity to call upon the Israeli
government and diplomatic missions worldwide to stop its flagrant
violations of human rights.

=======================================

Americans who seek justice should call upon our government to put a stop
to Israel's aggression.
We can do it, and it would help if members of the Jewish community would
declare for peace.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:32 EST 2001
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Subject: Defence for Children International/Palestine Section meets with U.N 
 Human Rights Inquiry Commission
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From: "DCI/PS" 

Defence for Children International/Palestine Section
For immediate release
17 February, 2001

ref: 0003/01

Defence for Children International/Palestine Section meets with
U.N Human Rights Inquiry Commission


Yesterday, 16 February, a delegation from Defence for Children
International/Palestine Section (DCI/PS) met with the United Nations U.N

Human Rights Inquiry Commission currently visiting the West Bank and
Gaza
Strip. The Commission was established following last year's visit of the
UN
High Commissioner for Human Rights, Mary Robinson, and charged with
investigating Israeli practices during the Al Aqsa Intifada, on the
basis
of the UN High Commission for Human Rights decision S-5/1 on 19 October,

2000. The Israeli government has refused to meet with, or discuss
matters
with the Commission.

DCI/PS representatives presented a detailed report on Israeli human
rights
violations during the Intifada, focusing in particular on violations of
Palestinian children's rights. DCI is currently preparing a detailed
Violations Report on Israeli practices during the year 2000 using a
rights-based approach centered around the 1989 UN Convention on the
Rights
of the Child (CRC), to which Israel is a States Party.

Issues discussed during the meeting included the following:

 · Israel's violation of the right to life: According to DCI/PS
fieldwork,
100 Palestinian children have been killed since the Intifada began on 29

September. Since the start of the year 2001, six children have been
killed.
DCI/PS explained that Israel has been conducting a policy of
shoot-to-kill
or seriously injury against the Palestinian population, evidenced
through
the fact that 72% of child deaths have resulted from shots fired to the
upper part of the body (head and chest). Over 2100 children have been
injured during the Intifada, while 236 were injured in the year 2000
prior
to the Intifada. Examining the statistics of injuries through violation
type, a sharp rise in injuries to the upper body has been noted by
DCI/PS
field workers in comparison with injuries prior to the Intifada (19%
prior
to Intifada compared to 31.7% during the Intifada). In addition, several

deaths have occurred as a result of the closure imposed on Palestinian
areas and at the hands of Israeli settlers.

 · The effects of the Israeli closure on Palestinian life: The closure
imposed on the West Bank and Gaza Strip is a violation of international
law
as it constitutes a form of collective punishment. The DCI/PS delegation

gave a number of examples of how the closure has effected Palestinian
children, including the example of 10 year old girl-child Alaa Osaama
Hamdan. Alaa died as a result of a severe lung infection on 13 October
after her family was prevented by the Israeli imposed closure from
taking
her to the hospital in Nablus.

 · The situation of Palestinian child prisoners in Israeli jails:
DCI/PS'
lawyer reported on the extreme difficulties faced in providing legal
support to children detained by the Israeli military authorities during
the
Intifada. Up until the end of December, the Israeli authorities had
closed
the military courts dealing with these cases and were arbitrarily
extending
detentions without the presence of legal defence. Large numbers of
children
have been arrested including 40 from the village of Hossan near Hebron.
Many children are being subject to torture and several have required
medical treatment as a result of this torture, including 15-year old
Mohammed Zaour, currently in Telmond Prison, who was stripped naked and
had
boiling water followed by freezing water repeatedly poured over his
head.
Once the courts reopened, children have been given sentences 3-4 times
the
length of those given prior to the Intifada. In addition, children have
been denied visits by lawyers and family members and have been
incarcerated
with criminal prisoners in many situations.

DCI/PS also discussed the Israeli propaganda regarding the events of the

Intifada, in particular the claim that Palestinians were indoctrinating
children in a culture of violence. DCI pointed out that the violence
stemming from the Israeli occupation surrounded children everywhere
during
their daily lives. The shelling of houses and schools, the continuing
violence of Israeli soldiers and settlers, as well as the large number
of
people killed by Israeli occupation forces creates an environment that
is
extremely detrimental to children's well-being. DCI has encountered
widespread evidence of damaging pyscho-social effects on children in its

work during the Intifada. The Israeli claim that Palestinians are to
blame
is akin to blaming the victim and is a racist attitude stemming from an
occupier's mentality.

DCI/PS welcomes the investigation of the Commission and hopes that its
findings will contribute to ending the continuing violence of the
Israeli
occupation and strengthen international efforts to protect the child
victims of this occupation.

-END-



Defence for Children International/Palestine Section
is an independent, Palestinian non-governmental
organization, established in 1992 to promote and
protect the rights of Palestinian children as articulated
in the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child as well
as in other international instruments.

DCI/PS, P.O. Box 55201, Jerusalem
Tel:   +972 2 240 7530
Fax:   +972 2 240 7018
(Note: please try and use +970, if the above country code does not work)

Email:   dcipal@palnet.com
Website:  www.dci-pal.org (click on 'new' for updated information)

  Jerusalem

===================================
Isn't it clear to the world that when Israel refuses to meet with a UN
commission sent to investigate human rights abuses, that the refusal
operates as a plea of guilty?
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:32 EST 2001
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Zionists  kill three more  civilians in Al-Khalil

AL-Khalil (Palestine): 17 February, 2001 - The Israeli occupation army
on
Friday killed three Palestinian civilians in the Al-Khalil region, bring

the death toll of Palestinians killed since the outbreak of the
Palestinian intifada or uprising to 420.

Palestinian sources in al-khalil said a 25-year old Palestinian man,
identified as Muhammed Ismael Hawamda, was killed Friday evening when
Israeli occupation troops opened fire on the car he was riding.

Eyewitnesses said trigger-happy soldiers opened fire from their
automatic
rifles at a car west of the village of Sammou (25 km south west of
al-khalil ), killing Hawamda instantly.

Hawamda and five other workers were reportedly  returning home from
their
jobs in Beir al-Saba'.

Two more Palestinians were killed by Zionist gunfire Friday in al-Khalil

and the nearby village of Bani Naim.

Palestinian sources said Isam Rashid Tawil, 29, and Shaker Suleiman
Manasra, 25, were killed when Israeli occupation troops opened
machinegun
fire indiscriminately at civilian neighborhoods in downtown al Khalil
Friday evening.

The sources said the neighborhoods pounded were "abu Sneineh,"
"Takruri,"
and "Karantina."

A fourth Palestinian, an elderly man aged 79 years, died when Israeli
occupation soldiers at a roadblock east of Tulkarm, in the northern West

Bank, refused to allow him to proceed to hospital.

Palestinian medical sources speak of many Palestinians patients who died
as
a result of Israeli troops denying them access to badly-needed medical
care
or simply standing their cars at Israeli roadblocks and checkpoints for
hours.

   _______________________________________________________________
                Proudly Serving Palestine and Al-Quds


     Islamic Association for Palestine

=======================================

Can it be true that American Jews support this ongoing massacre?
Why?
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:33 EST 2001
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Subject: KID SISTER By Israel Shamir
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KID SISTER

By Israel Shamir


After the last episode of the ‘Fateful Elections’, the actors amiably
shared the trophies backstage. The muse of Israeli politics, like
Coca-Cola, wishes to please everybody. Whoever thought that Barak was
the best candidate, will be pleased to have him back in power as the
Minister of Defense. Those who were about to get nostalgic for Shimon
Peres, and were upset that he was not allowed to run, will have Peres in
the secondbest bed, as Shakespeare’s widow. And yesterday’s monster
Sharon has miraculously evolved into a wise statesman. It really did
make no sense to vote.


The elections were a sham, but the siege of Palestinian villages is very
real. Soldiers, who can’t find enough demonstrators for target practice,
shoot at passenger cars. Gaza is awash with a new sort of gas. Israeli
tanks barrage suburbs of Bethlehem. A UN commission, sent to investigate
the war crimes, received the short shrift: how dare they speak of war
crimes? The Mitchell commission also got brushed aside last week. As the
response, the US warplanes bombed … Iraq (surely some mistake?)


Innocent outsiders must question how Israel can get off scot-free with
war crimes and receive the blessings of the US congress as a bonus?
Could it be the Divine intervention? The answer is no. There is another
agent to thank for this state of affairs. We, Israelis, enjoy full
immunity, and have no doubt, if and when our government decides to turn
the Palestinians into canned meat, the New York Times will celebrate its
nutritional values. If that is their intent, they should hasten the
process, because with the present blockade, the Palestinians are losing
weight with every passing day.


All is fine on the Israeli side of the barricades. The Israeli shekel
remains strong. Even George Soros knows that it would not be healthy to
take a position against it. The Tel Aviv stock exchange rallies on the
news that Intel has decided to invest a cool five billion dollars in
Israel.  The beauty of it all is that the siege of the Palestinians and
the prosperity of Tel Aviv are maintained at the expense of the American
taxpayer and investor. Since 1967, we have received some 170 billion
dollars from the people of the US. This money could be used to feed and
school all the underprivileged kids of America. It could pay to
compensate the descendants of the African slaves and help them out of
their hardship. It could save the sick and comfort the miserable; it
could turn Africa into a paradise. But it was kidnapped and shipped to
our shores. Every dollar invested by the Israeli lobby into senators and
congressmen has been returned a hundred fold, as promised by the Bible.


Besides the taxpayer’s money, the supporters of Israel – business
executives - invested billions of dollars that their shareholders
entrusted them with. There is no sound business reason behind Intel’s
investment, or other similar investments – Israel has no pool of
qualified workers, they have to be imported like everything else. The
risk of the investments in our country is great and the profits are
meager. But then again, they are playing with somebody else’s money.


Israel’s supporters fleece America in a grand way, but they also go
after other prey. In England, a Czech Jewish émigré who adopted the name
of Robert Maxwell, stole millions of dollars from the pension funds of
his British employees and shipped the money to Israel. He was found dead
in suspicious circumstances, but Israel never refunded the stolen goods.
In another English scandal, Dame Shirley Porter, daughter of salesman
Jack Cohen, the supermarket chain owner and the one-time mayor,
misappropriated 50 million dollars and presented lavish gifts to the Tel
Aviv University, built on the ruins of the destroyed Palestinian village
of Sheikh Munis. She was found guilty by the British High Court and
sentenced to the fine of 27 million pounds. As all her property had
already been transferred to Israel, the fine remains unpaid. Again,
Israel did not return the stolen goods.


Moving on to France, a group of Israeli and local Jewish financiers
transferred to Israel some 40 million of public funds and disappeared to
Tel Aviv. A Russian Jew and Israeli citizen Lev Cherny, a great
supporter of Yeltsin’s democracy, ‘privatized’ the Russian aluminum
industry, which has the biggest reserves in the world. Now the income
>from that industry flows directly to lovely Savion, the Beverly Hills of
Israel. While back in the frozen wastes of Siberia, the population has
been reduced to poverty. The Swiss and the Germans keep paying umpteen
billions of dollars to Israel for the confiscated property of Jews,
though Israel never paid even one penny for the confiscated Gentile
property. The Europeans meekly comply under threat of the toughest of
brothers Cray, the mightiest enforcer of Jewish loans, the US.


Israel’s supporters overseas are like a giant Hoover machine, sucking
out money and sweat from all over the world. Witness Mark Rich, the
thieving billionaire, pardoned by the best supporter of Israel, Bill
Clinton? He was a Mossad agent. Remember Fujimori, a thieving
ex-president of Peru? Israeli banks helped him to launder the money.
Sometimes, the Palestinians and their friends bemoan their inability to
build up their own Arab lobby to counteract the Israeli lobby. They miss
the most important point. The Israeli lobby should not be just a
Palestinian concern, but the concern of all Americans. When oil runs out
of a tanker’s hulk, it should concern the crew and the owners, not only
the fish. Israel’s supporters swindle all Americans of their money, and
antagonize America’s potential friends abroad. Many American politicians
support the swindle in order to remain in power. For personal political
ambitions, they betray the trust of their voters.


John F. Kennedy told Gore Vidal, that in 1948, Harry Truman was on the
verge of losing the presidential election, but a Zionist supporter
brought to him 2 million dollars cash and saved his skin. It caused
America to vote for the creation of the Jewish State. This pattern
perpetuates itself. The politicians take bribes, sell pardons, accept
‘donations’, and help the Israeli lobby to rob the people of America.


The actual direct contribution of American Jews for the welfare of
Israel is quite small and tax exempt. It would hardly cover the cost of
the missiles and nerve gas to kill Palestinians, much less support the
Israeli life style to which we have become accustomed. But what Israel
supporters collect in campaign contributions is enough to bribe
politicians and embezzle a good chunk of American money from the US
treasury.  If such a swindle would be hatched by, say, the Libyan lobby,
the media would rightly demand these people be registered as foreign
agents of influence. That is where the Israeli lobby cashes in on the
solidarity of the many American Jews and right-wing Christian Zionists
in the national media.


Ahmed Amr, an independent journalist from Seattle, Washington, has
lamented the total absence of the Arab-Americans in the American media,
saying ‘Could it be, that like white men can’t jump, the Arab-Americans
can’t write? Could it be that mainly Jewish gentlemen can write?’ Well,
he should know better.  Even Jews, who can write but fail to support
Israel, are also deprived of access to the national mainstream media.
Israel’s supporters have silenced the voice of Americans who would speak
up for the Palestinians, including notable Jewish intellectuals like
Chomsky. They silenced also the “native” voice of Americans. The stock
exchange rises and falls, but there is no new Faulkner out of the South,
no new Cheever in New England, no new John Barth from Maryland. The
Hollywood-made films have degraded into sheer escapism and production of
Arab-hate crap.


The enemy of Palestinians and of ordinary Americans, British and French
citizens is not ‘the Jew’, as some people tend to think. There are
thousands and thousands of wonderful folk of Jewish descent – doctors,
artists, rabbis, unemployed. A lot of them object to Israeli crimes and
to AIPAC policies. Some of them are on the front line of the struggle
for human rights. Now the time has come for us to stand up and be
counted.


The hesitating American Jews are in the position of the elder sister in
Raymond Chandler’s Big Sleep, who covers up the crimes of her wild kid
sister. Probably you remember it by one of the best American movies of
all times, scripted by William Faulkner, directed by Howard Hawks and
acted by Humphrey Bogart and Lauren Bacall. As the cover up continues,
the young sister comes to believe that she has immunity and keeps on her
killing spree. Eventually her crimes endanger the seemingly secure
position of the elder sister. It is not a day too early for misguided
Lauren to call for Bogart and to rein the crazed youth in, before she
will bring the house down on the heads of her blind supporters.


In spiritual terms, the blind support of Israel divided the Jews into
the sheep and the goats (Mt 25:32), into sons of saints and sons of
Mamon worshippers, the descendants of prophets and of their killers,
those who profess unity of mankind and adepts of national exclusivity,
those who wait for the saviour of man and those who expect the enslaver
of gentiles. The former ones will make the name of Jews blessed, but
those who would partake in the starving of poor peasants under
Israeli-imposed siege, those who would let them rot in jails, they will
certainly bring shame to all of us.


The covenant of Israel’s supporters is not an ethnic monolith. It admits
Gentiles, as well; it is enough to disregard the poor, the weak, the
oppressed, and you can enter it. On the other hand, every Jew can opt
out of it by rejecting Israeli crimes. There is no biological guilt or
virtue. The believing Jews of Naturei Karta opted out and supported the
Palestinian right to life. So did Jews for Justice, and many others who
did not care to join a political group, but stood away from evil. Wise
French noblemen opted out of the Ancienne Regime in 1789; they did not
wait for the ‘national razor’ of 1793.


It is in interests of Americans, Jews and Gentiles alike, to start with
a full embargo of Israel. The idea of an exclusive Jewish state is as
wrong as the idea of an exclusive Aryan or White State. Palestine/Israel
should become a democracy based on the principle of ONE MAN – ONE VOTE.
Do not worry for us, Israelis and Palestinians, – we, the sons of
Abraham, can live together. Just cut off the supplies to the Generals’
Junta, and we shall see the light.


A democratic Israel/Palestine will turn off the Zionist Hoover machine.
The long madness of Don Quixote will be over, and he will be called
again Don Quexana the Good. The fruits of labor will come to those who
need it, not to Israeli generals. Americans will again become welcome
guests in the Middle East. Who knows, maybe even the great American
cinema will be reborn from its golden ashes.


Jaffa, 17.2.2001


Israel Shamir is one of best-known Russian Israeli writers and
journalists. He wrote for Haaretz, BBC, Pravda and translated Agnon,
Joyce and Chandler into Russian. His articles The Rape of Dulcinea and
The Test Failed could be found on many Internet sites,
www.thestruggle.org, www.antiwar, www.NileMedia etc. He can be reached
at shamiri_@netvision.net.il, or write P.O.B. 23714 Tel Aviv 61236





From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:33 EST 2001
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The people in Gaza don't think so, maybe the Zionists do.
Their humor is reminiscent of the Nazis.
RLA

Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:

> This must be a joke.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:33 EST 2001
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Joel Rosenberg wrote:

> jhertzli@ix.netcom.com (Joseph Hertzlinger) writes:
>
> > On Mon, 29 Jan 2001 00:18:44 GMT, American Patriot
> >  wrote:
> >
> > >--
> > >"We don't believe free speech extends to Nazis or fascists or racists."
> > >
> > >- Leonard Zakim of the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, as quoted in the
> > >Jewish Advocate (May 19, 1994)
> >
> > I have no reason to believe he speaks for the Jewish community.
>
> I think he speaks for many in the Jewish community, and it's
> understandable that he does, given the behavior of Nazis and fascists
> and racists.  It's still, however, not the law in the US; the
> Constitution protects those scum, as perhaps it should.

It protects you too Joel.  The Jewish student group at Binghamton University
in New York recently protested the planned visit of Hanan Ashrawi on the
grounds that it would cause trouble in the community.  They lost, but they
tried
to stifle her speech.
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:34 EST 2001
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If I lived under the constant strain of not knowing whether I was going to live
or die
that Palestinians live with, my mental health wouldn't be the greatest either.
RLA

Alegro wrote:

> Roger, what Joseph Hertzlinger probably meant was that "mental health" is an
> oxymoron in reference to Palis...
>
> "Roger Alexander"  wrote in message
> news:3A8F28C7.A1545352@bellsouth.net...
> > The people in Gaza don't think so, maybe the Zionists do.
> > Their humor is reminiscent of the Nazis.
> > RLA
> >
> > Joseph Hertzlinger wrote:
> >
> > > This must be a joke.
> >



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Subject: Re: Mohammedan Anthem
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This jerk has posted stuff so rotten on Hank Roth's boards that Roth has
vowed to stop the next
stupidity.  And this is from a guy, Roth, so imbued with Zionism that he
gladly takes posts from
Jack Garbuz and Makowsky.
RLA

Diggler wrote:

> Is this meant to be witty or remotely funny ??
>
> And he uses "Mohammedan" - talk about ignorance - lol
>
> Wayne M. Syvinski  wrote in message
> news:_hUj6.8$jg2.4064@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net...
> > Here it is...
> >
> > An anthem the Mohammedans, especially the Palestinians, can use.
> >
> > The lyrics are original, but the tune is "Hatikvah" (National Anthem of
> > Israel, for those occasional readers)
> >
> > ===
> >
> > "Mohammedan Anthem"
> >
> > We're Mohammedans, with violence on our minds,
> > seeking to kill all Jews that we can find.
> > Yes, we will steal the land back promised to the Jews
> > and through all this we'll kill the Christians too.
> >
> > Lying through our teeth to the world press;
> > Strapping bombs upon our children's chests,
> > paying big bounties to families when they die;
> > and assurance of heaven for killing a rabbi.
> >
> > Violence and terror are the tools we use
> > making the world think the oppressors are the Jews.
> >
> >



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:35 EST 2001
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From: Roger Alexander 
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There were posts from Syvinski and from Makowski on one of Roth's boards last
week.
RLA

"Wayne M. Syvinski" wrote:

> > In article <3A902E3E.6E0B8A4E@bellsouth.net>,
> > Roger Alexander   wrote:
> > # This jerk has posted stuff so rotten on Hank Roth's boards that Roth has
> > # vowed to stop the next
> > # stupidity.  And this is from a guy, Roth, so imbued with Zionism that he
> > # gladly takes posts from
> > # Jack Garbuz and Makowsky.
> > # RLA
>
> This article hasn't hit my news server yet (I'm quoting from a followup that
> did), but I presume I'm the "jerk" in question.
>
> #1:  I don't know who Hank Roth is.
> #2:  I therefore have never intentionally posted to "Hank Roth's boards",
> wherever it is/they are.
> #3:  I for some time now have only posted to Usenet and to a local UBB-based
> site that I'm sure has nothing to do with Hank Roth.
> #4:  I have never been censured by anyone in any official capacity for the
> items I have posted to Usenet or any other message board.
> #5:  Never has anyone named Hank Roth (or anyone else, for that matter)
> threatened to cancel or otherwise limit my posting of anything.
>
> The point, of course - you may think the stuff I post is rotten, but tough
> s***.
>
> So...as loathe as I am to put up something not directly germane to this
> group, I'm not putting up with your BS unchallenged, and I'll keep posting
> all the satire I want.  You and your Moslem totalitarianists haven't managed
> to get our First Amendment repealed yet.



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:35 EST 2001
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Perhaps.  But just answer this.  Is it right what Israel is doing to the
Palestinians?
A simple yes or no will do.
RLA

Albert Reingewirtz wrote:

> In article <3A902CA6.F451DDF4@bellsouth.net>, Roger Alexander
>  wrote:
>
> > If I lived under the constant strain of not knowing whether I was going to
> > live
> > or die
> > that Palestinians live with, my mental health wouldn't be the greatest either.
> > RLA
> >
>
> As it is you should ne locked up. You are beyond disturbed. When are
> you going to commit suicide? I would love to sell tickets for the
> event. Many people would pay good money for this, moron!



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:36 EST 2001
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From: Roger Alexander 
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Subject: Re: ISRAELI SETTLERS WORSHIP MASS MURDERER
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You can believe it.  Most of these settlers are crazy fanatics imported from
Brooklyn, and New Joisey.
RLA

Bill Zann wrote:

> >Goldstein killed 29 people before being bludgeoned to death. Far from
> >being repudiated by his fellow settlers in Kiryat Arba, the fanatical
> >wing of the Jewish national religious movement turned his grave into a
> >saintly pilgrimage site.
>
> Is it for real?
>
> I could not believe that my opininion on Israeli settlers could get ever
> lower, but if the above is true, I was wrong.
>
> If the above is true, then the Israeli settlers are nothing than bunch of
> HYENAS.
>
> http://www.theage.com.au/news/20001015/A50969-2000Oct14.html
>
> >The dream of peace becomes a violent nightmare once more
> >By ANTON LA GUARDIA
> >Sunday 15 October 2000
>
> >The handshake on the South Lawn of the White House was supposed to
> >symbolise the end of a century of conflict between Zionism and Arab
> >nationalism.
>
> >Yasser Arafat, his head-scarf shaped like a map of Palestine, beamed as
> >the world applauded the former terrorist. Yitzhak Rabin, the Israeli
> >general wearing a statesman's suit, hesitated and scowled as he shook Mr
> >Arafat's hand.
>
> >Although a secular man, Mr Rabin was moved to quote the Bible. "He
> >maketh peace in his high places. He shall make peace for us and for all
> >of Israel. And they shall say: Amen."
>
> >Little did he know that seven years after the ceremony in 1993 to sign
> >the autonomy accords agreed in Oslo this religious vision of peace would
> >turn into the spectre of holy war. The high places of God - the Temple
> >Mount, Joseph's Tomb, Rachel's Tomb and others - became places of
> >bloodshed. "Peace" brought unprecedented violence to Israeli civilians -
> >suicide bombs, assassination and the fear of civil war. With Israel's
> >retaliatory measures, Palestinians became poorer, frustrated and
> >disillusioned with the promise of statehood.
>
> >The dove of peace - represented as bewildered, limping and often dead in
> >a pool of blood - was a constant feature of cartoons. It was killed by a
> >thousand cuts.
>
> >The first step in the slide towards jihad came, perhaps appropriately,
> >in the Jews' "Mother City" of Hebron, the burial place of Abraham and
> >King David's first capital.
>
> >Before dawn in February 1994, when the Jewish feast of Purim coincided
> >with the Muslim holy month of Ramadan, the religious American doctor
> >Baruch Goldstein burst into the Ibrahimi mosque and fired on a crowd of
> >Muslims prostrate in prayer.
>
> >Goldstein killed 29 people before being bludgeoned to death. Far from
> >being repudiated by his fellow settlers in Kiryat Arba, the fanatical
> >wing of the Jewish national religious movement turned his grave into a
> >saintly pilgrimage site.
>
> >His admirers said his act had been the result of his anger at the number
> >of times he had had to dip his hands in the blood of Jewish victims shot
> >by the Muslim Hamas movement.
>
> >By his action, though, Goldstein ensured that Hamas transformed its
> >tactics from hit-and-run shootings to suicide bombings. Forty days after
> >the Hebron massacre, a Palestinian blew himself up in a car next to a
> >crowded bus in Afula.
>
> >For the next two years, slow-moving peace negotiations were accompanied
> >by suicide bombings on Israel's buses. As the Palestine Liberation
> >Organisation moved away from armed struggle, Hamas became more
> >aggressive in its belief "there is no solution to the Palestinian
> >problem except by jihad".
>
> >The suicide bombings destroyed many Israelis' confidence in peace. In
> >November 1995, Yigal Amir, a student, assassinated Yitzhak Rabin in Tel
> >Aviv. He had believed Rabin was sacrificing not only the God-given land
> >but also Jewish lives. In 1996, suicide bombs destroyed the election
> >hopes of Mr Rabin's successor, Shimon Peres. Peace negotiations became
> >semi-frozen for the three years of Benjamin Netanyahu's leadership.
> >Hamas' attacks declined suddenly. In their place, Mr Arafat became
> >involved in the violence. In September 1996, riots over the opening of
> >an archaeological tunnel under the Temple Mount degenerated into
> >gunfights.
>
> >It was a prelude to the fortnight of mayhem that has engulfed Israelis
> >and Palestinians after the opposition leader, Ariel Sharon, made a
> >provocative visit to the Temple Mount. This time, though, the violence
> >has spun into wider sectarian clashes.
>
> >Even those who ardently believed in peace are now asking themselves
> >whether it will ever be possible. On the Via Dolorosa yesterday, a
> >Palestinian said: "There will not be peace for decades. Another
> >generation will have to do it."
>
> >TELEGRAPH



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:36 EST 2001
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February 17, 2001

Jewish 'voices' in power clash
Television incident highlights bad feelings between CJC and B'nai Brith

Mark Gollom
National Post

On the day Israelis voted to significantly change the political climate
of
their country, a turf war on Toronto's Jewish landscape was heating up.

As part of its Israeli election coverage, CBC Newsworld prepared to air
a
live interview from the Lipa Green building on Bathurst Street, with
representatives from three of the city's small Jewish organizations.

The fourth talking head was scheduled to be Frank Dimant, executive
vice-president of B'nai Brith Canada, one of the two large Jewish groups

based in Toronto, the other being the Canadian Jewish Congress (CJC).

This did not sit well with the CJC and its executive director, Bernie
Farber.

Mr. Farber apparently threatened to eject the news crew upon learning a
member of his organization would not be allowed to participate in a
panel
discussion being held inside a building funded by his group. (A CJC
source
says the threat only came after a CBC producer made "insulting" remarks
to
Mr. Farber.)

According to the CBC (whose spokespeople said they did not know who
owned
the building and frankly did not care), the producer insisted on keeping

the three lesser-known speakers to bring in fresh viewpoints on the
issue.

With one spot available, minutes from airtime and fearing the show was
on
the verge of collapse, the decision was made: Mr. Dimant was out and
Moshe
Ronen, president of the CJC, was in.

Days later, The Jewish Tribune, a bi-weekly newspaper published by B'nai

Brith, reported a one-sided account of the incident on its front page
under
the headline "Entire Community Embarrassed by CJC."

There are now as many versions of the story as there are people to tell
it.
Whatever the truth, what is truly "embarrassing," according to some in
the
Jewish community, is the endless squabbling between two organizations
whose
goals may be getting lost in their battle for the media spotlight.

Just weeks ago, the Tribune accused its rival paper, the Canadian Jewish

News, of pandering to the CJC when it ran a picture of that
organization's
members but cropped out representatives of B'nai Brith.

Some within the CJC say Mr. Dimant is stirring the pot and using his
power
with the Tribune to take cheap, unsubstantiated shots at their group.

They say the CJC has never publicly denounced B'nai Brith.

There are also tales of bickering over the order of speakers at public
events, bickering over the CJC trying to exclude B'nai Brith from
events,
and bickering that B'nai Brith shamelessly throws up signs at joint
rallies.

Caught in-between are members of the Jewish community who say they must
ensure they have placated both groups so as not to incur their ire.

"It's childish. It's a battle of egos," said an observer who doesn't
work
for either group. "We're talking about huge egos. People who live and
breathe to see themselves in the press.

"Something happens -- anti-Semitism, an attack on a synagogue -- you'll
be
sure they will be tripping over themselves to see who gets more media
attention."

A senior police official said working with the two groups on hate crimes

was like "walking on glass."

Both groups would help the police but then lobby to be the only one
credited publicly, he said.

"There seemed to be a lot of rivalry between the two organizations," he
said.

For years the CJC was the only game in town when it came to representing

the views of the Jewish community. B'nai Brith Canada relegated itself
mostly to youth issues, sponsoring baseball and soccer clubs.

But in the late 1970s, when B'nai Brith created the League of Human
Rights,
an organization meant specifically to deal with anti-Semitism, the two
groups began to compete for territory.

B'nai Brith's change in focus made the differences between the two
groups
largely structural. The CJC, with offices throughout Canada, has an open

membership and is bankrolled by the United Jewish Appeal, the largest
fundraising organization for Jewish causes.

Conversely, B'nai Brith, also national in scope, is limited to members
only
and funded by private donations and membership fees.

Observers say the battle for headlines is partially fuelled by the need
for
funding.

"B'nai Brith is a self-funding organization. The more prominence, the
more
they raise money," said another observer. "As for the CJC, if the UJA
feels
congress is not pulling their weight, they may cut them back."

The result is that independent groups that have sought assistance from
either organization are pressured into taking sides and have ended up
"caught in an ugly political crossfire," said Dave Gordon, publisher of
Afterword, a national Jewish newspaper.

"Although Afterword is an independent entity, it seems it's still a
constant political tightrope walk whenever we need to call on an
organization for any sort of assistance."

He said he has received flak over something as benign as renting a hall
at
one organization's building. "It was perceived by the other organization
as
taking allegiance to a side."

Some say the conflict is a result of a personal dislike between the
left-leaning Mr. Farber and the right-of-centre Mr. Dimant.

Mr. Dimant said his main problem with the CJC is its alleged
unwillingness
to allow others to speak for Jews.

"CJC claims to be the only spokes-organization for the Jewish community.

And while it's a fine organization, it's not the only
spokes-organization,"
Mr. Dimant said.

He referred to the CBC incident as "regrettable and distasteful" but
added
"there have been incidents of this type in the past."

Mr. Farber refused to speak at any length about the CBC incident or the
relationship with B'nai Brith, saying only, "We are saddened by any
attempt
to make a public issue of supposed inter-organizational wrangling. There

are too many serious issues confronting the Jewish community for us to
dignify these petty and divisive allegations with any further response."

With Canada's Jewish population estimated at about 400,000, some may
question the need for two large organizations representing such a small
community.

But Robb Ritter, executive director of the Canada-Israel Committee, said

both have a valuable contribution to make and both are members of his
organization, which must reach a consensus before issuing statements.

But he agreed "the interests of our community would be best served if
these
two valuable organizations would collaborate instead of compete." 

==================================

You know this is the straight scoop, it's from the National Post.
RLA



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Subject: We should be ashamed of ourselves | Eric H. Yoffie
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http://www.washingtonjewishweek.com/cgi-bin/liveique.acgi$rec=1229?wjw

We should be ashamed of ourselves | Eric H. Yoffie

Special to Washington Jewish Week | February 15, 2001

President Clinton was a good friend of the Jews, but many of his
last-minute pardons were simply outrageous. Among the most indefensible
were those granted to Jews, but scarcely a voice of Jewish protest has
been
heard. Instead, our community and its leaders have remained silent in
some
cases and
actually supported the pardons in others.

The result is that we have undermined our community's moral fabric,
jeopardized our political standing, disillusioned our youth and
compromised
the sacred values of our tradition. In short, the moral stain of this
sordid affair has begun to engulf us.

Mr. Clinton pardoned four Chasidic thieves from the Skverer sect in New
Square, N.Y., convicted of robbing the government of $11 million by
setting
up a fictitious yeshiva to receive federal student aid money. Chasidic
leaders and lawyers for the men, with no apparent irony, have justified
the
commutations
on the grounds that many other yeshivot were doing the same thing and
that
the funds were channeled  back into their community rather than being
used
for personal gain.

For Jews, this is not simply another case of fraud and embezzlement.
This
is a case of religious people inventing an imaginary Torah institution
to
steal from the government, using the funds for other activities of their

religious community, and then defending their actions on the grounds
that
the money did not go directly into their own pocket.

Throughout there is an implication that in some way all of this is
religiously acceptable. But of course it is not. Their actions are
nothing
short of a hillul Hashem -- a desecration of God's name. Jews who break
the
law in God's name and turn Torah into an instrument of thievery are
bringing Judaism into disrepute. However, with the honorable exception
of
the Orthodox Union's David Luchins, I cannot find a single example of a
religious leader who has spoken out publicly against their reasoning.

In the absence of unequivocal public contrition by all concerned, the
pardons were a serious mistake. It is never in our interest for actions
to
be taken that allow Torah to be so misrepresented and debased.

The Marc Rich pardon is even more distressing. Charged with massive tax
evasion and breaking an embargo on trading with Iran, Rich is a
multi-millionaire fugitive from justice who lives in luxury in
Switzerland. I am in no position to judge Mr. Rich's legal claims, but
neither are the many Jewish leaders and luminaries who contacted
President
Clinton in support of the pardon. Why their interest in a man who
appears
to have traded illegally not only with Iran but with Iraq and Libya,
rogue
states devoted to Israel's
destruction?

The answer is simple: They were bought. Mr. Rich contributed generously
to
Jewish causes and charities around the world, and then, in a carefully
orchestrated campaign, called in favors to put pressure on the
president.
Philanthropists, religious leaders and Israeli political leaders, most
of
them beneficiaries of his largesse, responded with calls and letters.

Rabbi Irving "Yitz" Greenberg, chair of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial
Council, made an exceedingly serious error when he sent a letter to
Clinton
on council stationery. But even accepting that this was a secretary's
mistake, I believe that Greenberg was used, that his position in the
community dictated caution in such matters, and the letter should never
have been sent. One can only marvel at Rabbi Greenberg's statement that
he
supported the pardon because Rich "did good in a situation where he
would
not get recognition."

Rich's calculated effort to inundate the president with appeals from his

supporters indicates that he was anything but selfless.

But again, Rabbi Greenberg was hardly alone. According to press reports,

Ehud Barak called President Clinton twice, Jerusalem's Mayor Ehud Olmert

wrote the president, and dozens of Jewish and Israeli philanthropists
weighed in with support.

There were virtually no voices in the Jewish community that protested
the
Rich pardon or our own response to it.

If Mr. Rich wants to support Jewish causes, that is fine, and admirable.
An
indicted fugitive is entitled to do good works with his resources, but
he
is not entitled to koved (honor), to a quid pro quo, or to
rehabilitation
of his name by the recipients, at least not until the legal process has
run
its course.

I am particularly troubled by the prominence that Mr. Rich was given in
the
Birthright Israel program and the public support that he received from
the
program's other backers. (Birthright Israel provides free Israel trips
to
college students and young adults.)

What is it that we are trying to teach our idealistic young people?
That,
no matter what, the super-rich take care of their own? That, for a
price,
anyone can purchase moral respectability?

I am an enthusiastic supporter of Birthright, but I know that the beauty

and drama of Israel will not be enough to draw young Jews to our
tradition.
They will embrace it only if they are exposed to the grandeur of Jewish
ethics, and if they see from our teaching and example that Judaism has a

great moral purpose.

The Clinton pardons presented the Jewish community with an important
moral
test. We failed. I hope and pray that we will do better next time.

Eric H. Yoffie is president of the Union of American Hebrew
Congregations,
the synagogue arm of the Reform Movement of Judaism. 

=====================================

Of course, these pardons show Clinton as scum, nothing more.
RLA



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Joel Rosenberg wrote:

> Roger Alexander  writes:
>
> > Perhaps.  But just answer this.  Is it right what Israel is doing to the
> > Palestinians?
>
> Of course not.  Putting up with that level of terrorism and violence
> isn't right at all.

Well, here you have it, red leg fans.  A zion-simp says that Israel
shouldn't have to put up with

> that level of terrorism and violence.
>
He neglects the sordid history of Israel, the violence the Jews have visited
on the native people
of Palestine, the violence they are visiting on them every day.  A little
biased perhaps,
maybe a lot biased.

Seriously, the inability  to judge all people by the same standard is typical
of
chauvinist groups worldwide.  It was typical of France in the nineteenth and
early 20th centuries,
Germany and Italy in their fascist period.  Indeed fascism and chauvinism
often go hand in hand.
This appears true in Israel.  The Nit was just here speaking to the
Conservative
Political Action Committee, and I couldn't help but remark that his speech
would have gone over well in Nazi Germany.
RLA


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Joel Rosenberg wrote:

Roger Alexander <rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net> writes:

> Perhaps.  But just answer this.  Is it right what Israel is doing to the
> Palestinians?

Of course not.  Putting up with that level of terrorism and violence
isn't right at all.

Well, here you have it, red leg fans.  A zion-simp says that Israel
shouldn't have to put up with
that level of terrorism and violence.
He neglects the sordid history of Israel, the violence the Jews have visited on the native people
of Palestine, the violence they are visiting on them every day.  A little biased perhaps,
maybe a lot biased.

Seriously, the inability  to judge all people by the same standard is typical of
chauvinist groups worldwide.  It was typical of France in the nineteenth and early 20th centuries,
Germany and Italy in their fascist period.  Indeed fascism and chauvinism often go hand in hand.
This appears true in Israel.  The Nit was just here speaking to the Conservative
Political Action Committee, and I couldn't help but remark that his speech would have gone over well in Nazi Germany.
RLA
  --------------94406F495DAF4696122852EC-- From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 6 16:02:37 EST 2001 Article: 530066 of soc.culture.jewish Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A916073.7DB6CC1E@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa Subject: No Magic Solution By Youssi Sarid Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 134 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 12:05:39 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.54 X-Trace: news1.atl 982605841 208.61.184.54 (Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:04:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 13:04:01 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173433 soc.culture.israel:325887 soc.culture.palestine:112208 soc.culture.jewish:530066 soc.culture.usa:599238 No Magic Solution By Youssi Sarid 15 February 2001- yade’ot Another morning shines with pain to bring us back to unbearable reality. It is impossible to categorize “Terrorist attacks” according to its level of dangerousness. Every attack is dangerous when it causes casualties. Yet, yesterday’s attack was painfully nerve wrecking and would be remembered for a long time. Everyone felt the pain and all were frustrated. The frustration is a result of our failure to put an end to “Terrorism” and cut off the arm that is stretched to kill us. There is no one to blame but us. Frustration is always a direct result of unrealized expectations. Every time, officials and politicians stand in front of media cameras to tell us what we should do or have not done. The frustration was too deep these days. We were under the illusion, during the election campaign a week ago, that soon the army would prevail. But the army cannot achieve victory. We must say the truth even during these hard times. I hope to have a different fact that could be encouraging to my people. God forbid if we do not acknowledge the limits of power, because if we do not, we would lose that power. Suppose we blew up the front lines in Bait Jala or Ramallah, assassinate high ranking-officials in the PNA, or re-occupy the city of Gaza, would this stop “Terrorist attacks”? Then, what? No more attacks? We were in Gaza for 25 years and we totally failed to put an end to “Terrorism”. We must remember and remind others as well that we were the only ones in charge when the first Intifada (The 1987 Uprising) occurred. They did hit us real hard and caused us a lot of pain. Sometimes, politicians try to sell us another magical remedy, a rigorous closure or a “We are here and they are there” type of remedy. The rigorous closure cannot be strict enough as those magicians know very well, especially in certain places like Jerusalem. Strict closures and/or complete segregation are next to impossible. Even if we implement the proposed segregation plan the Palestinians would strike at settlers and the soldiers guarding settlements. We are too close to use an extremely unprecedented level of military force. The Palestinians in the Territories are living extremely hard times. With Israeli blockades, closures, sieges, unemployment has hit many families, poverty spreading widely, people on the verge of starvation and despair is getting deeper. These are the breeding grounds of “Terrorism” and the number of “Terrorists” multiplies in such circumstances. Thus the circle of trepidation spreads even wider. They strike and we retaliate. They persevere and we do too. Thus, the prospect of “Terrorism” grows. Logic and past experience had taught us that states fight “Terrorism”, not only because it threatens Israel and turns our life miserable, rather because “Terrorism” poses a threat to Israel and to the regimes of these states also. Those regimes have a vested interest to counter “Terrorism” because this menace often rebels against its creator or those who surrender to its activities. This is the reason why “Terrorism” is non-existent in Egypt or Jordan and no direct “Terrorism” in Syria. Accordingly, “Terrorism” would be non-existent in the Palestinian state because of its vested interest to fight it otherwise it would destroy that state from within. There is only but one question that worries me very much. Could the Palestinian state, in the circumstances that prevailed recently, enjoy any kind of stability? Could this state live up to world expectation? The Palestinian Authority is on the verge of collapse to irreparable extent. God forbid, it would be a catastrophe when it does collapse. At that time, we would face the most grueling phase in our history. With no central authority, factions, gangs and militias would be active throughout the area creating havoc. Perhaps, the recent wanton elections have something positive after all. The Israeli public would soon find out that neither the Rightist government nor a national coalition has the right remedy. There would be no one promoting illusions when the public finally awakens. Only then we would stand on the same grounds to face reality. In this case, we would stand with eyes wide open, to help establish the Palestinian state and demarcate the borders between Israel and that state with or without an agreement. We would have to, unilaterally, dismantle the settlements that hinder the demarcation of borders that meet our demographic and security necessities. We would, willfully, call for an international force to serve as buffer and oversee the armistice agreement between the two states. We would be able to iron out the remaining differences through negotiations when some relative calmness prevails. From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 6 16:02:37 EST 2001 Article: 530138 of soc.culture.jewish Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A91B57B.7C287A7D@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: soc.culture.israel,talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish Subject: Re: Mohammedan Anthem References: <_hUj6.8$jg2.4064@nntp0.chicago.il.ameritech.net> <3A90832C.FE75FC1B@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 55 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:08:27 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.54 X-Trace: news2.atl 982627608 208.61.184.54 (Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:06:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:06:48 EST Xref: hub.org soc.culture.israel:325938 talk.politics.mideast:173466 soc.culture.jewish:530138 Whether Makowsky knows him or not, a post by Makowsky was on Roth's board last week. RLA David Lee Makowsky wrote: > I want to restate this is another lie by Roger. I have no idea as to > who Roth is, and I have never had anything to do with any of his > "boards". This includes writing on them. > > In article <3A90832C.FE75FC1B@bellsouth.net>, > Roger Alexander wrote: > # There were posts from Syvinski and from Makowski on one of Roth's boards last > # week. > # RLA > # > # "Wayne M. Syvinski" wrote: > # > # > > In article <3A902E3E.6E0B8A4E@bellsouth.net>, > # > > Roger Alexander wrote: > # > > # This jerk has posted stuff so rotten on Hank Roth's boards that Roth has > # > > # vowed to stop the next > # > > # stupidity. And this is from a guy, Roth, so imbued with Zionism that he > # > > # gladly takes posts from > # > > # Jack Garbuz and Makowsky. > # > > # RLA > # > > # > This article hasn't hit my news server yet (I'm quoting from a followup that > # > did), but I presume I'm the "jerk" in question. > # > > # > #1: I don't know who Hank Roth is. > # > #2: I therefore have never intentionally posted to "Hank Roth's boards", > # > wherever it is/they are. > # > #3: I for some time now have only posted to Usenet and to a local UBB-based > # > site that I'm sure has nothing to do with Hank Roth. > # > #4: I have never been censured by anyone in any official capacity for the > # > items I have posted to Usenet or any other message board. > # > #5: Never has anyone named Hank Roth (or anyone else, for that matter) > # > threatened to cancel or otherwise limit my posting of anything. > # > > # > The point, of course - you may think the stuff I post is rotten, but tough > # > s***. > # > > # > So...as loathe as I am to put up something not directly germane to this > # > group, I'm not putting up with your BS unchallenged, and I'll keep posting > # > all the satire I want. You and your Moslem totalitarianists haven't managed > # > to get our First Amendment repealed yet. > # > > -- > There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good at > math and those that are not. > > dlm@mcs.net From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 6 16:02:37 EST 2001 Article: 530157 of soc.culture.jewish Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A91C070.7EFA49F0@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.usa Subject: Re: We should be ashamed of ourselves | Eric H. Yoffie References: <3A913169.FDF8F9FF@bellsouth.net> <3a91534d.65294448@news.gulfstream.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 33 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 18:55:12 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.54 X-Trace: news2.atl 982630412 208.61.184.54 (Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:53:32 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 19:53:32 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173475 soc.culture.jewish:530157 soc.culture.usa:599383 No sirree Bob, that is not reason for you to be ashamed. You have pleanty of other reasons, over 100,000 dead Arabs, more than three million refugees who cannot come home, terror assassinations, all sorts of rotten deeds to be ashamed of. That you have no shame is the ture mark of your inhumanity. RLA Red Herring wrote: > On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 08:44:57 -0600, Roger Alexander > wrote: > > >http://www.washingtonjewishweek.com/cgi-bin/liveique.acgi$rec=1229?wjw > > > >We should be ashamed of ourselves | Eric H. Yoffie > > > >Special to Washington Jewish Week | February 15, 2001 > > > >President Clinton was a good friend of the Jews, but many of his > >last-minute pardons were simply outrageous. > > A typical self-hating drivel. > > Just because All-American crook and notorious anti-semite Bill Clinton has > sold presidential pardons to felons some of whom happened to be Jewish does > not mean that we should be in any way ashamed of ourselves. > > --- > "The actions taken by the United States in the name of international legitimacy in recent years > are the worst sort of contemporary barbarism worse that we have seen in this century from > the Nazis, the Fascists, the Jews, the Cambodians, the Serbs, and the Rwandans." > (Palestinian Authority's mouthpeace Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, Gaza, 12/2/1998) > --- From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 6 16:02:38 EST 2001 Article: 530186 of soc.culture.jewish Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A920249.C4878CFE@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa Subject: Bill Friend takes Barbra Amiel apart, but fails to put her back together again; bad Bill, bad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 839 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:36:09 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.48 X-Trace: news2.atl 982647287 66.20.149.48 (Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:34:47 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:34:47 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173505 soc.culture.jewish:530186 soc.culture.canada:258059 soc.culture.british:549270 soc.culture.usa:599463 Stolen, I admit it from a mail list, but this is too good to let go. Bill Friend is a distinguished Jewish American and antiZionist. He just cannot abide the hypocrisy (Zionists who cannot spell the word please take note) of the shills for Israel who masquerade as concerned citizens. I get discouraged with the continuing murders and other lesser atrocities the damnable Zionists are carrying out on the defenseless Palestinians, so it is good to have a bright spot in anotherwise dismal picture. Bill's nom de plume is Zevei Wolf or sea wolf. RLA To the editors: I am not familiar with Ms. Amiel; as to whether she is a columnist for your newspaper or as to whether she is merely an individual citizen saying her peace. However I take issue with many of her assumptions and presumptions which she comes forth with in her opinion piece below. For the sake of clarity, I will intersperce my remarks as commentary to her statements in brackets [ ]. Israel must survive for Judaism to have a future By Barbara Amiel [ From the very beginning, in her title, Ms. Amiel makes a very broad assumption that a world religion, which has existed since time immemorial is dependent on a state created by various world powers in 1948. Many Jewish clergy as well as laity, especially in the United States are decrying the fact that since its inception, and partially because of the very real and grave tragedy of the Nazi holocaust against the Jews of Europe, the self-described, de jure, "Jewish State", has become a substitute for universalist Judaism. I could list any number of rabbis and other Jewish theologians who have spoken out against this latest form of idol worship, in any number of opinion journals targeted to primarily Jewish audiences. For the sake of brevity however, I will only list some of the journals in which this case has been made: Tikkun Magazine, Midstream, Reform Judaism Magazine (the official organ of the Union of American Hebrew Congregations of North America), Lilith, Commentary and others. There is one quote which I cannot fail to include, and it is from the editor and publisher of Tikkun, Rabbi Michael Lerner. Writing in the March/April 1998 issue, in an article entitled "Post-Zionism, Restoring Compassion, Overcoming Chauvanism", Rabbi Lerner states at the outset; " " If you judge 'who is a people's God' by what they hold sacred, where and for whom they are prepared to make sacrifices, where and for whom they spend their money, then you have to conclude that for much of the past fifty years, the real object of worship of much of the Jewish people has been Israel and Zionism. Unfortunately, LIKE ALL FALSE GODS this one has failed to satisfy the spiritual hunger of the Jewish people. (all emphases are mine -B.F.) If many Jews turn away from Judaism today, Israel has played no small part in that process." in fact, Lerner concludes something which Ms. Amiel no doubt would find startling, " Judaism may be one of Israel's most important casualties. The state that was created to preserve Jews may be at the center of the process that leads Jews away from their Jewishness" ] DOES it matter if the Jews as a people or nation continue to exist? Once this was the sort of question I played with at university over cups of bad coffee in the early Sixties. Were the Jews a race, a religion, a culture, a tribe? Whatever we were, we were living a good life in Britain, America and the West in general. In those simple, heady days, the state of Israel was seen as a heroic little country. [ Considering the fact that at the time Ms. Amiel pondered these profound questions, she was a college student without very much perspective on things, one might understand how she would have doubts about some of the above issues, and a grave misconception about what Israel truly is, which is anything but "a heroic little country". In order to make this clear, it becomes necessary to deconstruct virtually the entire thought process above. I think that to the first question posed, does it matter if the Jews as a people or a nation continue to exist, that the answer is Yes. However, just as one makes assumptions when asking another person if they "believe in God" and the other person answers in the affirmative; one must avoid certain assumptions to my answering Yes to her question. Answering the first question in the affirmative is contingent on what one means by Jews as a people. The late Rabbi Elmer Berger, wrote at great length on the quantum difference between Jewish people and THE Jewish people. There are manifestly, somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 to 16 million Jews in the world; so there are certainly enough people who are Jews to make that question rhetorical. However, since the inception of the Judaic religion, Judaism has always been a group of persons freely associating with the creed of Judaic thought. That one can cease being a Jew by virtue of conversion, or simply abandonment of that creed has always been an option. One can always change one's religious affiliation without much hindrance, unlike changing one's ethnic background. Are Jews a nation? No. The state of Israel is certainly a nation in the commonly understood definition of that term. But Jews are members of a religion. The early Zionists, such as Herzl and especially Chaim Weizmann, who ascended to the chair of the Zionist Organization after his predecessor's early death at the age of forty; would interchangeably use the word "people" and "nation" as it suited them, for the understanding of those controlling the great powers of the day - Great Britain, Imperial Russia, Germany, the Ottoman Empire and France. The document which came to be known as The Balfour Declaration was quite specific and careful in its diplomatic wording. "His Majesty's government approve with favour...a national home for the Jewish people..." At the time, the official language of the Z.O. was German, and in German, home and state under the word "heimstatte" are virtually interchangeable. Thus the high presumption made in this document, parenthetically over the strenuous objections of the one Jew in the British Cabinet at the time, Lord Edwin Montagu, Viceroy of India; is that THE Jewish people (which the Zionists always thought of as a nationality) needed their own STATE. This state of course would be national, not in the way one understands French or American nationalism, but a "herrenvolkest" state, in the manner of the German nationalism which led to the ascendancy of the Nazis under Hitler. Blood and soil was the watchword of the day in the Third Reich, along with the need for "liebensraum", breathing space for this German "volk", at the expense of all of the "non-Aryans" residing on German soil (blood). The urge is now to poke a bit of fun at Ms Amiel's lamenting over bad coffee. Since we are obviously contemporaries, as I too spent my college years in the socially revolutionary sixties, I too had my share of bad coffee, over "allnighters", and yes I'll admit it, unlike our lately unlamented ex-President, Bill Clinton; I did in fact, on more than one occasion - inhale. Having overindulged in some substances, it is easy to understand why a college student might bring forth questions, the answers to which had already been settled. No serious anthropologist considers Jews to be a race, so why even bother to raise the question? Since by definition, a Jew is someone who subscribes to the religion known as Judaism, it is on its face apparent that to be Jewish is to subscribe to a particular religion, however tenuously one does so. Even though many in other religions cannot understand the concept of how one might affirm they are an atheist while maintaining that one is a Jew; it must be mentioned that there is in fact a branch of Judaism composed of atheists known as Secular Humanistic Judaism; founded by Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine( ordained in the Reform movement at the HUC-JIR seminary) of Minnesota. The center of the movement is still located there at the Birmingham Temple. Rabbi Wine makes this case in his book, "Judaism Beyond God publ. KTAV Publishing House, 1995 jointly with the Society for Humanistic Judaism. Another important work from that particular branch of Judaism is "Judaism in a Secular Age - an anthology of Secular Humanistic Jewish Thought" also date and publishers the same. "A culture?" Not even close. I hate to disabuse most of my Jewish friends of that notion, but there has never been such a thing as a "Jewish culture". Rather, there have been any number of "Jewish cultures", all dependent on where any particular group of Jews found themselves at some point in history. All cultures have certain markers - a common language, common modes of dress, common foods, common folklore, even common recreational activities. Thus among Jews, especially those of northern and eastern Europe, and now the predominant population of Jews in N. America; there was certainly a specific culture known as Ashkenazic. I am a product of this culture, as my maternal grandparents came from the Pale of Settlement, and my Paternal grandparents from Austria-Hungary. This culture was distinquished by the use of Yiddish as the common language (Hebrew, being the "holy tongue" was restricted for use in prayer at shuls, and even sermons were delivered in Yiddish.), many of the Jews in the pale would wear what we now know as Hasidic modes of dress, while others would wear what was common among other people of that area. Certain foods which we now think of as "Jewish" hail from that region, such as bagels, smoked fish, prepared and seasoned meats and certain weekend stews (cholent). Folktales particular to that area were popularized in the general culture by the man we know as Shalom Aleichem; and woe to the son who did not practice on his violin. But this culture was not Jewish. Many Jews in Britain and N. America, are quite correct when they state that they "feel" Jewish. They certainly feel a distinctness, but that distinctness is not Jewish, it is Ashkenazic, as they are part of that great subdivision of Jews known as Ashkenazim. Distinct from their northern and eastern co-religionists were of course, the Sephardim, the "Spanish and Portuguese" Jews, who were expelled as we all know, and wound up in The Netherlands, in the New World, and in North Africa. The language of the Sephardim is Ladino; a completely different tongue than Yiddish with a different derivation. Much sephardic cooking incorporates rice and legumes, two things virtually unknown in Ashkenazic cooking. In fact, on the Passover, Sephardim are permitted rice whereas it is prohibited to Ashkenazim. Other cultural factors also fall into the same places. What do these two separate and disparate cultures have in common? They practice the same religion, Judaism, and that is all. The same case can be made for Jews from Arab countries, who culturally feel Arab, Persian Jews, Indian Jews and even Chinese Jews. Yes, Virginia, there is a kosher Chinese restaurant in NYC called Cho-Sen (get it?) but it is not the same thing as Chinese Jews. Are Jews a tribe? Only as in the snickering question, "Are you a member of the tribe? (M.O.T.)" Of course, this misconception comes from the biblical history of the twelve tribes, ten of which were "lost" (in reality the populace assimilated into the surrounding Assyrian culture), leaving only Judah and Benjamin, the latter being incorporated into the remaining kingdom of Judea (and hence the name Jew). However, since that time, those known as Jews have intermarried with the communities in which they found themselves, people have entered the religion, left the religion; and an entire country, Khazaria, was by royal decree converted to the Judaic religion. This country flourished as an important buffer state in the area north of the Baltic, Caspian and Aral seas, the latter two of which it half encapsulated between the years circa 700c.e. to 1100 c.e. Even today in afternoon Hebrew schools, children are taught the legend of King Bulan, and how he chose Judaism over both Christianity and Islam. The current country of the former USSR, Khazakstan, now approximates the borders of that ancient kingdom. Yes, whether British, American or other Western Jew, we were living the good life. How ironic that that very statement completely refutes one of the fundamental premises of Herzlian Political Zionism. This 19th century utopian philosophy, in all aspects a virtual mirror image of the virulent strain of 19th century racist, as distinguished from religious, Jew-hatred (anti-Semitism) was predicated on two tenets: (1) Jews were and are unassimilable into general European society (2) Because of (1) the "solution to the Jewish question in Europe" (a phrase invented by Herzl and only borrowed by Hitler) was to form a separate state....somewhere. What has been proven in this century is that both premises were not only incorrect but ludicrous. It is ironic that one of the things that scares modern Zionists the most is the high rate of acculturation (they prefer to use the word, assimilation, as a pejorative term) of Jews marrying "outside". In some sections of the U.S. this rate exceeds 50% of all marriages in which one of the spouses is a Jew. Was not the goal to be accepted among the population in general? What better proof than to take on and be accepted by a non-Jewish spouse and her family? As for "The Jewish State", I ask, in what country are Jews in more jeopardy merely for the fact that they are Jews, than in the state of Israel? In all countries in the West, Jews are completey free to worship as they please, where they please, and when they please, by rabbis of whatever sex and/or sexual orientation they please in some of the denominations without the censure of either the state or the head of the state religion, as they are in "The Jewish State". In Israel, of course, only one branch of Judaism is recognized as "torah true" and that of course is Orthodoxy. This is not merely custom but is incorporated into the laws of the State of Israel. Why on earth, any Jew seeking religious freedom would put up with such an anomaly is entirely beyond me.] Nothing essential about Israel has changed since then but the Zeitgeist has changed and, about 30 years ago, Israel went out of fashion. [ Woops, sorry love. Israel did not change fashion statements. What happened is that thirty years ago, Israel conquered in war (who started it is a valid point of contention, but keep in mind that Menachem Begin himself admitted that Israel did, and that he knew that Gamal Abdel Nasser was saber rattling. It was seen as an opportunity to grab land that the fix was in for with Britain and France in '56, but Ike held firm against his erstwhile WWII allies. ) all of the remainder of the territory of the former British Mandate, plus the Golan, plus Gaza, plus The Sinai. The only thing that had gone out of fashion, and that was since the end of WWII was the conquest of land by force of arms. ] This has created an irony that the early founders of Zionism never foresaw. [ Were Ms. Ariel to study just a little history, she would find that the early Zionist maps show a "greater Eretz Israel" which they intended to retake, on some maps encompassing everything from the Eastern shore of the Nile to the Euphrates, or as it is written in the Tenakh, "from the river Nile to the great river." The fact that the Nile has more than twice the drainage basin of the Euphrates and therefore ought to be "The Great River" was apparently lost on an all-knowing god. Be that as it may, other "more realistic" maps presented to both the formulators of the Balfour Declaration, and again to the powers meeting to divide up the middle east at the Paris Peace talks in 1919 by the Zionist Organization, show a "Jewish State" with the northern border on the Litani river (remember that "security zone"?) the eastern border extending to the Damascus-Petra-Amman railway, the southern border well into the Sinai, and the western border from El-Arish all the way up to Tyre, certainly shows that not only did the early founders foresee where they wanted the borders of the Jewish State to go, but that except for bugging out of the "security zone", and relinquishing the Sinai back to Egypt, they have pretty much accomplished what they set out to do!] Israel was established to spare Jews physical danger and anti-Semitism. [Well, that was the party line, it certainly was not the goal of the British. As for the Nazis, not only was the Yeshuv, the organized Jewish community in the Palestine Mandate, virtually useless, but there is remarkable and compelling evidence of cooperation by the Zionist hierarchy with the Third Reich. Well, don't take my word for it; read The Transfer Agreement by Edwin Black; the same author who has just released the worldwide bestseller about the collaboration between IBM and the Nazis. Or read Zionism in the Age of the Dictators by Lenni Brenner; or The Holocaust Victims Accuse, put out by the Neturei Karta ("the guardians of the city"), or Ben-Gurions Scandals by Naiam Giladi, who worked for the Mossad; or the classic in this regard, PERFIDY, by the great playwrite, Ben Hecht. Note every person writing these treatises is Jewish; not some wacko holocaust denier, or neoNazi apologist. ] The irony is that nowhere in the world does being a Jew carry a higher price-tag than in Israel. [ Well, she finally managed to get one thing correct!] The question that now begins to force itself upon some of us is one we have tried to avoid: is this grim scenario of killings and bombings and endless warfare worth it - to the world and, on a personal level, to our children? I think the answer is yes, but there are persuasive arguments to be confronted. [ This woman thinks that war is worth it? Well, Ms. Amiel, if you think such nasty things are so compelling, why haven't you made "aliyah", and joined the IDF upon embarcation. I'm sure someone there, perhaps the war criminal Ariel Sharon, would be more than willing to put you at some front line action - perhaps Hebron? Moreover, warfare is NEVER endless. It is only the obstinacy of refusing to see the truth in all of this that makes it seem endless. Here for your consideration, Ms Amiel is the pure distillate - YOU STOLE THEIR LAND, THEY WANT IT BACK. This is not complicated, it is actually very simple, and has been the cause of all wars against colonialism for as long as colonialism has existed. The given is that when the native population that has been colonized exceeds that of the colonizer, the colony eventually fails, be it of a regular colonialist nature, or as in the case of Israel, of a settler colonialist nature. ] The reaction of much of the media and many commentators to the election of Ariel Sharon has been a lightning rod for this hostility to Israel. "Is Ariel Sharon Israel's Milosevic?" asked the LA Times. The Independent's Review section led with a front that described Sharon in oversize type as a man whose "name is synonymous with butchery; with bloated corpses and disembowelled women and dead babies, with rape and pillage and murder" [ Yes, and with good reason. Most people still remember the massacres at Sabra and Shatilla in Lebanon during the unprovoked invasion of that country by a Sharon-influenced-Begin in 1982. A Court of Law IN ISRAEL found Sharon responsible for that massacre by Phalange forces, to the extent that the recommendation was made that he never serve as Defence minister again. They forgot to throw in Prime Minister, too bad. However, many, including I dare say, Ms. Amiel, have completely forgotten, or have never heard of Force 101, commanded by the young Lieutenant Sharon which massacred over 40 defenseless women and children in the town of Qibya back in 1953, or which invaded and killed scores of people in el-Bureij in Gaza in late 1955 in an effort to provoke Egypt into the Suez Canal war. There are other skeletons in the closet of "The Bulldozer" as well. ] The Guardian's special report on the Middle East contained a piece by journalist David Hirst. Hirst, a regular contributor to the online English language Lebanese Daily Star, made his position on the Middle East quite clear in a January 25 article for the Star. [ David Hirst is also the author of the highly praised history of the region titled "The Gun and the Olive Branch." Ms. Amiel might do well to pick up a copy. It is more readily available in Britain than it is back here in the colonies. ] For him, the state of Israel is a "colonialist enterprise" and any solution to the conflict begins with the assumption that every inch of Israel is "usurped land" and the entire entity is illegitimate. [ And there you have it.] Yesterday's Observer ran a poem by the highly regarded Arts Council recipient Tom Paulin that described "the Zionist SS". One can take the view, legitimately, that Israel is a disputed land with two peoples each believing it is theirs, and that it is difficult to say who is right or wrong. What is immoral and illogical is to talk about international law, rights and wrongs, and then blithely disregard every rule, whether it is the UN resolution establishing Israel, [ Ms. Amiel may find this difficult. I find it blessedly easy. Since she brought up international law, why not discuss that for a moment. The Hague Convention of 1908, set terms for the treatment of non-belligerents on conquered territories. Now it is obvious that Israel was not a signatory to that since it didn't yet exist, yet upon its establishment in 1948, the governing body of Israel agreed to abide by that convention. Moreover, Israel IS a signatory to the Geneva IV convention which is extremely specific on the same matter, and of which Israel has either disregarded, ignored, circumvented or spat on every article thereof. As for UN resolution 181, which was the international resolution voted on by a narrow majority in the General Assembly (try to get it passed now!) on a second vote, and after much arm twisting; which gave "international legitimacy" to a "Jewish State" also set up an "Arab State" with Jerusalem as a "corpus separatum" belonging to neither. Monday Quarterbacking of course is not very fair, but in hindsight, had the Arabs accepted this, I believe there would be no Jewish state at the current time. In fact, it may have lasted less than a decade since inside its borders as directed by that resolution, 45% of the population was Arab. What would Ben-Gurion have done without the pretext of the refusal of the Arab states. Of course, can the Palestinian Arabs be blamed for refusing to turn over the choicer parts of an area (The Mandate) of which they owned 94% to settle for 45% of land much of which was not arable (like the Negev?)? The Arabs rightly saw this action as not only an insult but once again a betrayal, as had occurred in the aftermath of WWI by the Western Powers. At that time, Britain and France, acting under the secret Sykes-Picot agreement which contradicted both the Hussein-McMahon Letters of Correspondence, AND The Balfour Declaration at the same time; divided up the entire area of Greater Syria between them. So once again the Arabs saw that the fix was in and they smelled a very large rat by the name of Uncle Sam. It was the specific goal of the leadership of the Yeshuv, and then of the new state, to grab as much of the Arab designated territory as possible before the great powers made their move. And they did. And in the process threw 750,000 souls off their ancestral land, stole their property and forced what now amounts to over two milion to live in squalor. But lets for the moment forget about 181 and jump to UNGA 194. This resolution, the quid pro quo for the admission of Israel into the United Nations, required that Ben-Gurion agree to repatriation and restitution of the refugees. He agreed, then once Israel was in, he welched on the deal. This resolution has been reconfirmed in every successive GA since then; and what is amazing is that Israel has not been tossed out on its rump from the assembly, in the same way that the Apartheid South Africa was dealt with. A careful reading of the "Oslo Peace Treaty" shows that it is in reality, or thankfully WAS, a mechanism to circumvent UN resolutions 242 and 338 on which it was allegedly based. The more correct term for Oslo should be "The Oslo Articles of Conditional Surrender". Arafat undoubtedly never read the document, preferring to take the money and running to the nearest numbered Swiss bank account, or perhaps swimming to the Cayman Islands. There is of course the wry joke told by Palestinians among themselves about why Arafat can't sink - His lips keep him afloat. ] the Oslo Accords, or laws against targeting civilians in terrorist attacks or using civilians as shields for military attacks. This is like umpiring a boxing match and letting your favourite contestant take a submachine gun into the ring while shrilly pointing out any rules broken by his opponent. [ And that presumably is why 94% of the fatalities and casualties in the current hostilities have been born by Palestinians?] The Israelis are exhausted by it all. The country has been in a state of war that started five hours after it came into being in 1948. [ Once again demonstrating her poor grasp of history, Ms. Amiel overlooks that fact that civil war in The Mandate started in earnest in 1947 as soon as Britain announced to the world that it was giving up the ghost and going somewhere more profitable, although it never announced just where that was. But then, when all else fails you could always invade Canada, eh? The fighting never really stopped, and in truth had been going on since the 20s, based on provocations from both sides, if one is to be entirely honest. ] This low-level war of 52 years has been interspersed with armed truces, but it has never ceased and it is predicated on one simple fact: the rejection by the Arab world of the UN vote to partition Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish state in the Middle East. You can argue whether or not this rejection is justified, and I have some sympathy for the arguments of the Arabs, who had nothing to do with the Holocaust in Europe that gave impetus to the establishment of the state of Israel in their midst. [ The Nazi holocaust against the Jews of Europe had nothing to do in essence with the plans for A Jewish State. Those plans were on the books long before Adolf Hitler did his worst. I will concede that the realization of the world, of those horrors certainly generated sympathy,goyisha guilt, however one must remember that the Zionists, like the Nazis, used the genocide as a form of eugenics. They only wanted to take those Jews who were able-bodied and of breeding age. Yes, I know that is coarse, but then, the Zionists were coarse when the leader of the Zionist Organization, Weizmann, referred to the majority of "ostjuden" as "human dust", unworthy of being saved, and in fact, a detriment to the gene pool in the Zionist quest to create "The New Hebrew man and woman." Hitler would have been pleased had he lived to see it. Ms. Amiel really must read either The Holocaust Victims Accuse, or Perfidy. Ben Hecht by the way was a member of the Irgun, so his terrorist credentials are entirely in order. Oh yes, that great humanitarian and Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Weasel (sic) was also a member of the Irgun. I almost forgot.] But the fact of their non-acceptance is undeniable. Even Egypt, signer of the first peace treaty with Israel, has never established anything more than a cold-war accommodation with its Jewish neighbour. [ So that makes Egypt, presumably, Israel's Moslem neighbor? Ms. Amiel, keep in mind that peace is merely the absence of hostilities. One does not need to play kissy face. When the Brits kissed the French, did they turn into handsome princes, or were most of them still frogs? ] Indeed, of late, the anti-Israeli rhetoric has been heating up in Egypt. Last December, in the government-sponsored weekly October magazine, a two-part article by General Hassan Sweilem, "The Jewish personality and Israeli actions", concluded: "Historians, race-studies professors and sociologists agree that humanity throughout its long history has never known a race such as the Jewish race in which so many bad qualities, base and loathsome, have been gathered." The series included anti-Semitic remarks attributed to George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, first used in a vicious forgery that appeared in 1935 in Germany in the Nazis' Handbook on the Jewish Question. [ Well, bravo Ms. Amiel. Of all of the cogent things and intelligent things written in the Egyptian press, as exemplified by the weekly Al-Ahram, you managed to find a certified anti-semite, to condemn the entire intelligentsia of Egypt by. No, I am not defending those noxious words at all, but perhaps you ought to take time to read some of the legitimate critiques. ] Once you face the fact that what exists in the Middle East is a war, albeit a low-level one, the futility of trying to judge individual acts is obvious. The world judges the warring parties anyway, according to the spirit of the times. There was a time when, perhaps wrongly, every Palestinian act was considered one of terrorism and similar Israeli acts were never condemned. That lasted until the end of the 1960s. Now the climate is such that only Israelis are judged. [ Hey, remember when the Indians were the wild savages and the White men were all the good guys protectin' their wimmin' from a-scalpin' an' worst? Then along came Dancing With Wolves and Black Robe and ruined all of our fun. John Wayne died for our sins, you know. "Do not forsake me oh mah dahlin' On this are weddin' day,......" - High Noon - "Watchyou mean, "we" Kimosabe?" - Tonto - ] Arab rejectionism is more obdurate than ever because it is closer than ever to succeeding. Morale in Israel is low. Emigration is an option when the computer age makes it feasible for labour to be mobile. [ Actually emigration was a big option even back in the horse and buggy days. In the early days of the Yeshuv, for several years, there were more people leaving than coming, and this of course had the Zionists very worried. Then Hitler came along and solved their problems. Isn't that amazing? Quite the coincidence. Then of course there were the millions of Jews who fled via any means possible, from the pogroms of the Tsars, and the closest any of them ever came to a computer was an abacus. ] You can as easily do your job in Cincinnati as Ramat Gan and not worry about a bomb going off on a bus. [ Well apparently you haven't been to Cincinnati recently, or Baltimore, Detroit, Philadelphia or any of the other crumbling inner cities of the U.S. How's Manchester by the way? ] The Arabs are many, the Israelis few. As the Muslim world has said, we can outwait you and we will prevail. [ Is that what they said? You mean they didn't say they were going to throw the Jews into the sea? I coulda sworn that was what Ami Isseroff of PeaceWatch told me. ] Islam is on an upswing throughout the world. I come from a British Jewish family that was all but assimilated. [ Which part of you was NOT assimilated.] I barely understand a word of Hebrew or Yiddish, yet my personal pride comes from my Jewish identity. [ Since the estimable Ms. Amiel concedes that she is "all but assimilated", does not understand two of the several languages associated with Jews, I seriously question what precisely it is that she uses to self-identify as a Jew? Could it be the universalist values instilled by the prophets? Nah, she already stated she was in favor of continuing war if that's what it took. Jeremiah would definitely not approve, nor would Isaiah and certainly not Micah. Could it be a deep and abiding respect for the bare minimum of Judaism, "do not do unto others that which is hateful to yourself, that is the entire Torah, all the rest is commentary?" Nah, she thinks there is some latitude to the dispute. What happened to a few of the Big Ten - You shall not steal, you shall not lie, You shall not murder, You shall not covet that which is your neighbors? Those are manifestly things which one could follow which would impart Jewish identity. I hope her Jewish identity does not simply extend to "gustatory Judaism", which means that she assiduously eats smoked salmon with her kippers on Sunday mornings. ] Given this, how can I fail to understand how strong the tribal sense of belonging must be to those among the Arab and Islamic world, many of whom are devout, highly religious and brought up with a narrow perspective on the world compared with Western notions of liberalism? [ And Ms. Amiel thoroughly studied the Qu'ran with Imam.......? ] The problem with nationalism - or tribalism and deism - is that the people who are immersed in it generally oppose everyone else's version, while those who are distanced from it don't understand the power of such notions and blithely bash on, trying to build happy multicultural constructs. At the same time, Jews themselves lack some essential character traits for survival. We can be excellent soldiers and commandos. We may even have the odd sadist or death squad. But we don't revel in it. [ ..and how nice to make these broad generalizations about groups of people. Gee, Herr Goebbels would be proud! ] We cannot contemplate mass population transfers and the extermination of a people or nascent state as the price for the survival of Judaism. It is not in the Jewish temperament. [ What on earth would this "all but assimilated" Jewish woman know about "Jewish temperament", whatever on earth that is, and frankly I'm highly insulted by the characterization that there is such a thing. I'm sure Ms. Amiel is also an expert on "The Arab Mind", as were many "Orientalists" at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. Oh yes, I suppose "all dem niggers be lazy" yessuh massa, as well. It's just part of their "temperament", but damn they're fast. ] What many sentimental or Left-wing Jews, both inside and outside Israel, do dream of is a multicultural Israel in which Jew and Arab live together in harmony in one land under a flag flying both the red crescent and the Star of David. [ Well you could pick out a different color scheme for the new flag, but on the other hand this is a contemplation devoutly to be wished, before we shuffle off this mortal coil. It would be rather nice, rather than constantly bearing the slings and arrows and stuff you know. By the way, since you're a Brit, I've always wanted to know something. What's a fardle? And why would be bear it? ] Nice stuff if you could get it. If, deep down, some of these Jews understand that within one hour of the crescent going up on the Jewish flag, Israel as a Jewish state would end, they either don't care or are in denial. [ And hey, that's not just a river in Egypt, either.] An Islamic state is not an inclusive state and has no room for full citizenship for practising Jews. [ Or even non-practicing, "all but assimilated Jews" who speak neither "Hebrew nor Yiddish" as Ms. Amiel has so eloquently stated. But then again, there is a presumption that this new entity would be an Islamic State, and not a completely secular state. What is it that makes Ms. Amiel think this. Moreover, if she practices no religion, why should she care? Because she "feels Jewish". She has no idea what a Jew is! ] Would it really matter if Israel ceased to exist? For the extraordinary achievements of its 52 years alone, it deserves to exist. [ Kindly name some of those "extraordinary achievements". OK, here's one in the annals of jurisprudence - The Present-Absentees Law. That's my personal favorite. ] But, in the past 50 years since the end of the Second World War, the actual necessity of a Jewish homeland seems to have progressively diminished. Overt anti-Semitism has been all but vanquished. Certainly, Jews appear to have given the Western world disproportionate gifts in the arts, literature and sciences. [ Ms. Amiel appears to be hung up on the collective. "Jews" did not give this to the Western World. Individuals who just happened to be Jews did. There just aren't those many Einsteins, Freuds, Salks, Sabins, and Stanley Kubricks (he's a homey of mine) to go around. And thankfully there aren't those many Elie Weasels to go around either. And there was only one Groucho. "My name is Captain Spalding, The eminent explorer Did someone call me Schnorrer? Dadadadada dup dup." - Groucho Marx - "Oh that this too too solid flesh would melt, Thaw and resolve itself into a dew." - that was either Jean Neidich or Fergy, The Dutchess of York, I think. But one of the great unknowables is whether an unassimilated group makes more or less of a contribution than assimilated peoples. We don't know what the Samaritans or Babylonians, never mind the Visigoths, have given to the world since they disappeared into the greater population pool. [ Actually the Samaritans still exist and live near Nablus. What they have taught the world is the dangers of inbreeding, similar to our own Mississipians, Alabamans and Cajuns on this side of the lake. ] Myself, I'd be sympathetic to the view that the unusual contribution Jews have made to the world may have been due to the peculiar position that we have never been fully assimilated, or become masters of our own culture, and this has been a spur to Jewish achievement. This is purely speculation and has no scientific basis at all. [ That's a relief, because besides being an interminable run-on sentence it is a total brain fart.] While organised anti-Semitism has been eliminated in the world today, the situation of the Jews hasn't fundamentally changed. Notwithstanding the moderating forces of liberalism and the fact that we can live peacefully anywhere, the same forces that turned Germany into Nazi Germany still exist in the world. [ I knew you had to be reading up on Richard Icke and the reptiles.] Any people such as the Jews who do not have a country of their own may forever be at the mercy of any virus that takes hold. We might live peacefully for the next five generations without Israel. After all, about five generations of Jews managed quite well from the time of the Habsburgs' Joseph II until the end of the Weimar Republic, suffering only those restrictions that were totally normal in any place at that time that had a Leitkultur or dominant culture. [ ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....................................................] Only the Israelis can make the decision on whether to keep up the fight for their country. All they really want is to be accepted by their neighbours as a nation like any other. If that were genuine, all the squabbling about holy places, settlers and borders could easily be resolved. Israelis want to be able to travel from A to B without fear of ambushes. [ as opposed to EVERY PALESTINIAN who can't "get there from here"without a myriad of "peppers" as in "Vere er yur peppers? ACHTUNG!! ARBEIT MACHT FREI!!!!! ] They want to stop worrying whether or not their children will survive military service - a requirement that is not simply a year or two of some discomfort and disruptions, as it may be in other countries that have an active military service, but a lottery in which their sons and daughters may not come out alive. Without Israel, it is hard to see how all Jews in the diaspora could avoid assimilation. [ If you are barely Jewish, why are you concerned with a "diaspora". If you are "all but assimilated" do you truly believe you are in exile? And if you truly believe you are in exile, what the heck is stopping you >from making "aliyah"? C'mon, if not for yourself, then do it for Edgar. Hey, Birthright Israel and all that swill you know. ] Jews have survived more than 2,000 years in the single, unshakeable belief that one day their dislocation would end with their return to the Promised Land. This is the central underpinning of Judaism. "Next year in Jerusalem" [ It is certainly a blessed thing that Ms. Amiel is NOT a rabbi. Not even close. Ms. Amiel as she admits understands NOTHING about Judaism, if she thinks that the central underpinning of Judaism is "next year in Jerusalem". The absolutely, fundamental tenet of Judaism is this: "Choose life" In fact, just that is written on the walls of many Synagogues. Not "Next year in Jerusalem, but this year in Cancun" as I've heard so many joke at Pesach seders. By choosing Zionism over Judaism, Ms. Amiel chooses death, for Zionism, just like the legendary golden calf, will melt of its own weight as an abomination before man and God, but especially before man. ] is the single phrase every Jew hears and remembers from the moment he can speak. [ Actually the first thing I remember speaking was "Hey, cut that out!" That was to the mohel. ] If, this time, Israel is destroyed and the Jews leave, whether through progressive absorption into an Islamic state or bloody warfare, there seems little chance of a Third Temple and a return. Without the possibility of Israel, Judaism becomes pointless. [ Third Temple? Judaism has survived for 2,000 years without a third temple. Moreover, in case you hadn't noticed, it has progressed immeasurably beyond the days of animal sacrifice and priests. Moreover, how would you know when Judaism would become pointless, since you have no idea what Judaism is to begin with? You know what, without Israel, Judaism undergoes a renaissance. More progress has been made within the religion of Judaism, since 1948, outside of the state of Israel, than anything The Jewish State had to contribute to the growth of religious sensibilities. ] In the diaspora, the remaining practising Jews may well face unbearable burdens. [ Yes. I'm afraid my BMW is finally on its last legs. You know what, I can't take the flatulence anymore. If one is a practicing Jew in a free country, who is placing a burden on the person? Is not that person free to practice their religion in peace without interference, even if virtually everyone around is not practicing any particular creed? Who would bother this person? Is that what a fardle is? ] We have put to rest the curse that we were responsible for the death of Christ. [ Thank God. Amen. ] But if a Jewish state is eliminated from the Middle East, our children may inherit such canards, for example, as our supposed role as persecutors of the brave victorious Palestinian people. Losers do not get a hearing. The Israelis will make their decision whether to carry on the draining struggle for a Jewish state, but all Jews, even the anti-Israel Jewish journalists in the West, may yet bear the consequences of that decision. [ And I'll only have myself to blame. Which is why my friends call me Wolfie. "Hey there little red ridin' hood, You sure are lookin' good, 'Cause yur everthang that a big bad wolf could want..." Sheesh, this trash makes a major British newspaper? Where's Robert Fisk when we need him? Or Chris Hitchens? What pub? Heheheh........ I mean BAddddddddddd................... Sorry gang, I couldn't stay serious with some of this pure utter bilge. I know y'all are forgiving......] Zevei From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 6 16:02:38 EST 2001 Article: 530488 of soc.culture.jewish Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!feeder.qis.net!news.idt.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A94641C.B6CB1141@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel Subject: Re: Excusing Ariel Sharon References: <96sq79$jp1$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <200220010740260917%albert@nethere.com> <5qxk6.992$sw2.23826572@news2.tor.primus.ca> <96vajm$e1h$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 152 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:58:04 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.217 X-Trace: news3.atl 982803365 208.63.206.217 (Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:56:05 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:56:05 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173748 soc.culture.palestine:112400 soc.culture.arabic:62673 soc.culture.jewish:530488 soc.culture.israel:326433 This is a really stupid Zionist sympathizing post. As is usual for Zionists, it takes facts out of context, puts in "facts" completely undocumentable, and ignores the real reason for the trouble in Palestine which is solely the Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people. Only an idiot, or a cult member or a damned liar could write such garbage. RLA Alegro wrote: > This is a perfect example of Palestinian propaganda. Reading it makes you > ignore realities of drive-by shootings, mined roads, lynchings of Jews by a > bloodthirsty mobs, etc. The problem is that the Israeli government keeps > its army from doing its job of protecting Israelis from the terrorism. Gaza > Strip is a ceter for terrorist actions against Israelis. Maybe Sharon will > give the Army a freer arm to deal with the murderers, but I doubt it. No > other hot spot in the world has so many news media representatives "hungry > for blood" in such a small, confined area... > "David Martin" wrote in message > news:96vajm$e1h$1@bob.news.rcn.net... > > My, they will pollute a thread with childish exchanges, won't they? How > > about some adult fare? > > > > _______ ____ ______ > > / |/ / /___/ / /_ // M I D - E A S T R E A L I T I E S > > / /|_/ / /_/_ / /\\ Making Sense of the Middle East > > /_/ /_/ /___/ /_/ \\© 2/19 http://www.MiddleEast.Org > > > > News, Information, & Analysis That Governments, Interest Groups, > > and the Corporate Media Don't Want You To Know! > > * * * * * * * > > IF YOU DON'T GET MER, YOU JUST DON'T GET IT! > > To receive MER regularly email to INFOMER@MiddleEast.Org > > > > Gaza Ghetto, Gaza Concentration Camp, Gaza Prison > > > > For four months, the Gaza Strip has been effectively isolated from the > > world. > > Over 1 million Palestinians are caged in an area of not more than 365km2. > > Forty-percent > > of this land is off limits to Palestinians due to the 16 Israeli > settlements > > housing 4,500 settlers and numerous military outposts that occupy it. > > > > The situation in Gaza is dreadful, and worsening by degrees. To halt > > Palestinian > > movement in the Strip, the Israeli military has cut Gaza into four > sections > > by erecting road blockades and checkpoints throughout the strip. Israeli > > tanks > > line the roadsides, ostensively for the protection of the settlements and > > settlers > > and the roads they travel upon. > > > > Furthermore, the Israeli army has taken control of Palestinian farmland > and > > orchards that lie alongside roads that are used by settlers, and land that > > surrounds military bases and settlements. Using "security needs" as a > > pretext > > for its control of the land, the Israeli military has also destroyed > > everything > > on the land. > > > > The depth of this destruction needs to be seen to be believed. All > > vegetation > > including olive and citrus trees, banana plants, mango groves, > agricultural > > sheds, vegetable greenhouses, and palm trees along the roadside from Gaza > > City > > to Khan Younis has been decimated. Bulldozer tracks indented in the sand > > crisscross > > the land; mounds of sand are dotted around, each covering the remains of > > uprooted > > trees and broken branches and the remains of orchards are strewn along the > > roadside. > > > > The destruction of Palestinian homes and the ramshackle sand bag > > fortifications > > along the streets is equally shocking. Uninhabitable shells of apartment > > blocks > > are a common sight. Any houses that lie near Israeli settlements and > > military > > posts have been under constant bombardment by Israeli tanks and heavy > > weaponry. > > > > The Israeli destruction of Palestinian agriculture and housing has ruined > > the > > livelihoods of the people and has rendered many homeless. This outright > > destruction > > and collective punishment continues unabated until this day. [Source, > > Palestine > > Monitor Organization] > > > > ---------------------------------- > > MiD-EasT RealitieS - http://www.MiddleEast.Org > > Phone: 202 362-5266 > > Fax: 815 366-0800 > > Email: MER@MiddleEast.Org > > > > Excusing Ariel Sharon > > > > Crimes motivated by hate > > Carry more negative weight, > > Except when they're wholesale and vicious > > And mixed up with reasons of state, > > Or done for the chosen people, > > And not for the master race. > > > > DC Dave > > > > --------- > > DC Dave > > Author of "America's Dreyfus Affair, the Case of the Death of Vincent > > Foster" > > & "Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression" > > http://thebird.org/host/dcdave > > news:alt.thebird > > Have you seen http://www.fbicover-up.com ? > > Larry R wrote in message > > news:5qxk6.992$sw2.23826572@news2.tor.primus.ca... > > > efkent-are you a cross dresser, as well as a cross poster? > > > "efkent" wrote in message > > > news:t95506kb5am137@corp.supernews.com... > > > > That's more than can be said of you. You idiotic vaginal pit. All that > > is > > > > inside one is empty space. Just like your head. > > > > Eugene Kent. A Labor Voice from Ohio. Support the Palestine Intafadat. > > > > Boycott israel and its White House clone. > > > > > > > > Albert Reingewirtz wrote in message > > > > news:200220010740260917%albert@nethere.com... > > > > > In article , rob > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > excuse him also for being a fat pig. > > > > > > > > > > > > man hes one big fat muther fucker, bet he has not seen his dick > for > > a > > > > while. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > rob > > > > > > > > > > He could see you, dickhead! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar 6 16:02:40 EST 2001 Article: 530710 of soc.culture.jewish Path: hub.org!hub.org!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A968866.CB830137@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.arabic,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel Subject: Re: Excusing Ariel Sharon References: <96sq79$jp1$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <96vajm$e1h$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A94641C.B6CB1141@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 178 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:57:26 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.101 X-Trace: news1.atl 982943748 208.63.207.101 (Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:55:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:55:48 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173951 soc.culture.palestine:112507 soc.culture.arabic:62715 soc.culture.jewish:530710 soc.culture.israel:326765 Not to get into a piss fight with a skunk, but the reader, (if there is one) will note that this sort of response is a variant of "So's your old man". This is the form of response most favored by this poster, since it operates as a response, but avoids thought and most important reasoned argument. For if the poster made an attempt at reasoned argument, the flaws, if any, would be readily apparent ot the reader. RLA David Lee Makowsky wrote: > This is a really stupid anti-semitic post. As is usual for > anti-semites, it takes facts out of context, puts in "facts" > completely undocumentable, > and ignores the real reason for the trouble in Israel which is solely > the "palestinian?" terrorism against Israel. Only an idiot, or a cult > member or a damned liar could write such garbage. > > In article <3A94641C.B6CB1141@bellsouth.net>, > Roger Alexander wrote: > # This is a really stupid Zionist sympathizing post. As is usual for > # Zionists, it takes facts out of context, puts in "facts" completely > # undocumentable, > # and ignores the real reason for the trouble in Palestine which is solely > # the Israeli oppression of the Palestinian people. Only an idiot, or a > # cult member or a damned liar could write such garbage. > # RLA > # > # Alegro wrote: > # > # > This is a perfect example of Palestinian propaganda. Reading it makes you > # > ignore realities of drive-by shootings, mined roads, lynchings of Jews by a > # > bloodthirsty mobs, etc. The problem is that the Israeli government keeps > # > its army from doing its job of protecting Israelis from the terrorism. Gaza > # > Strip is a ceter for terrorist actions against Israelis. Maybe Sharon will > # > give the Army a freer arm to deal with the murderers, but I doubt it. No > # > other hot spot in the world has so many news media representatives "hungry > # > for blood" in such a small, confined area... > # > "David Martin" wrote in message > # > news:96vajm$e1h$1@bob.news.rcn.net... > # > > My, they will pollute a thread with childish exchanges, won't they? How > # > > about some adult fare? > # > > > # > > _______ ____ ______ > # > > / |/ / /___/ / /_ // M I D - E A S T R E A L I T I E S > # > > / /|_/ / /_/_ / /\\ Making Sense of the Middle East > # > > /_/ /_/ /___/ /_/ \\© 2/19 http://www.MiddleEast.Org > # > > > # > > News, Information, & Analysis That Governments, Interest Groups, > # > > and the Corporate Media Don't Want You To Know! > # > > * * * * * * * > # > > IF YOU DON'T GET MER, YOU JUST DON'T GET IT! > # > > To receive MER regularly email to INFOMER@MiddleEast.Org > # > > > # > > Gaza Ghetto, Gaza Concentration Camp, Gaza Prison > # > > > # > > For four months, the Gaza Strip has been effectively isolated from the > # > > world. > # > > Over 1 million Palestinians are caged in an area of not more than 365km2. > # > > Forty-percent > # > > of this land is off limits to Palestinians due to the 16 Israeli > # > settlements > # > > housing 4,500 settlers and numerous military outposts that occupy it. > # > > > # > > The situation in Gaza is dreadful, and worsening by degrees. To halt > # > > Palestinian > # > > movement in the Strip, the Israeli military has cut Gaza into four > # > sections > # > > by erecting road blockades and checkpoints throughout the strip. Israeli > # > > tanks > # > > line the roadsides, ostensively for the protection of the settlements and > # > > settlers > # > > and the roads they travel upon. > # > > > # > > Furthermore, the Israeli army has taken control of Palestinian farmland > # > and > # > > orchards that lie alongside roads that are used by settlers, and land that > # > > surrounds military bases and settlements. Using "security needs" as a > # > > pretext > # > > for its control of the land, the Israeli military has also destroyed > # > > everything > # > > on the land. > # > > > # > > The depth of this destruction needs to be seen to be believed. All > # > > vegetation > # > > including olive and citrus trees, banana plants, mango groves, > # > agricultural > # > > sheds, vegetable greenhouses, and palm trees along the roadside from Gaza > # > > City > # > > to Khan Younis has been decimated. Bulldozer tracks indented in the sand > # > > crisscross > # > > the land; mounds of sand are dotted around, each covering the remains of > # > > uprooted > # > > trees and broken branches and the remains of orchards are strewn along the > # > > roadside. > # > > > # > > The destruction of Palestinian homes and the ramshackle sand bag > # > > fortifications > # > > along the streets is equally shocking. Uninhabitable shells of apartment > # > > blocks > # > > are a common sight. Any houses that lie near Israeli settlements and > # > > military > # > > posts have been under constant bombardment by Israeli tanks and heavy > # > > weaponry. > # > > > # > > The Israeli destruction of Palestinian agriculture and housing has ruined > # > > the > # > > livelihoods of the people and has rendered many homeless. This outright > # > > destruction > # > > and collective punishment continues unabated until this day. [Source, > # > > Palestine > # > > Monitor Organization] > # > > > # > > ---------------------------------- > # > > MiD-EasT RealitieS - http://www.MiddleEast.Org > # > > Phone: 202 362-5266 > # > > Fax: 815 366-0800 > # > > Email: MER@MiddleEast.Org > # > > > # > > Excusing Ariel Sharon > # > > > # > > Crimes motivated by hate > # > > Carry more negative weight, > # > > Except when they're wholesale and vicious > # > > And mixed up with reasons of state, > # > > Or done for the chosen people, > # > > And not for the master race. > # > > > # > > DC Dave > # > > > # > > --------- > # > > DC Dave > # > > Author of "America's Dreyfus Affair, the Case of the Death of Vincent > # > > Foster" > # > > & "Seventeen Techniques for Truth Suppression" > # > > http://thebird.org/host/dcdave > # > > news:alt.thebird > # > > Have you seen http://www.fbicover-up.com ? > # > > Larry R wrote in message > # > > news:5qxk6.992$sw2.23826572@news2.tor.primus.ca... > # > > > efkent-are you a cross dresser, as well as a cross poster? > # > > > "efkent" wrote in message > # > > > news:t95506kb5am137@corp.supernews.com... > # > > > > That's more than can be said of you. You idiotic vaginal pit. All that > # > > is > # > > > > inside one is empty space. Just like your head. > # > > > > Eugene Kent. A Labor Voice from Ohio. Support the Palestine Intafadat. > # > > > > Boycott israel and its White House clone. > # > > > > > # > > > > Albert Reingewirtz wrote in message > # > > > > news:200220010740260917%albert@nethere.com... > # > > > > > In article , rob > # > > > > > wrote: > # > > > > > > # > > > > > > excuse him also for being a fat pig. > # > > > > > > > # > > > > > > man hes one big fat muther fucker, bet he has not seen his dick > # > for > # > > a > # > > > > while. > # > > > > > > > # > > > > > > > # > > > > > > rob > # > > > > > > # > > > > > He could see you, dickhead! > # > > > > > # > > > > > # > > > > # > > > > # > > > # > > > # > > -- > There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good at > math and those that are not. > > dlm@mcs.net From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:33 EST 2001 Article: 258059 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A920249.C4878CFE@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa Subject: Bill Friend takes Barbra Amiel apart, but fails to put her back together again; bad Bill, bad Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 839 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:36:09 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.48 X-Trace: news2.atl 982647287 66.20.149.48 (Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:34:47 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:34:47 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173505 soc.culture.jewish:530186 soc.culture.canada:258059 soc.culture.british:549270 soc.culture.usa:599463 Stolen, I admit it from a mail list, but this is too good to let go. Bill Friend is a distinguished Jewish American and antiZionist. He just cannot abide the hypocrisy (Zionists who cannot spell the word please take note) of the shills for Israel who masquerade as concerned citizens. I get discouraged with the continuing murders and other lesser atrocities the damnable Zionists are carrying out on the defenseless Palestinians, so it is good to have a bright spot in anotherwise dismal picture. Bill's nom de plume is Zevei Wolf or sea wolf. RLA To the editors: I am not familiar with Ms. Amiel; as to whether she is a columnist for your newspaper or as to whether she is merely an individual citizen saying her peace. However I take issue with many of her assumptions and presumptions which she comes forth with in her opinion piece below. For the sake of clarity, I will intersperce my remarks as commentary to her statements in brackets [ ]. Israel must survive for Judaism to have a future By Barbara Amiel [ From the very beginning, in her title, Ms. Amiel makes a very broad assumption that a world religion, which has existed since time immemorial is dependent on a state created by various world powers in 1948. Many Jewish clergy as well as laity, especially in the United States are decrying the fact that since its inception, and partially because of the very real and grave tragedy of the Nazi holocaust against the Jews of Europe, the self-described, de jure, "Jewish State", has become a substitute for universalist Judaism. I could list any number of rabbis and other Jewish theologians who have spoken out against this latest form of idol worship, in any number of opinion journals targeted to primarily Jewish audiences. For the sake of brevity however, I will only list some of the journals in which this case has been made: Tikkun Magazine, Midstream, Reform Judaism Magazine (the official organ of the Union of American Hebrew Congregations of North America), Lilith, Commentary and others. There is one quote which I cannot fail to include, and it is from the editor and publisher of Tikkun, Rabbi Michael Lerner. Writing in the March/April 1998 issue, in an article entitled "Post-Zionism, Restoring Compassion, Overcoming Chauvanism", Rabbi Lerner states at the outset; " " If you judge 'who is a people's God' by what they hold sacred, where and for whom they are prepared to make sacrifices, where and for whom they spend their money, then you have to conclude that for much of the past fifty years, the real object of worship of much of the Jewish people has been Israel and Zionism. Unfortunately, LIKE ALL FALSE GODS this one has failed to satisfy the spiritual hunger of the Jewish people. (all emphases are mine -B.F.) If many Jews turn away from Judaism today, Israel has played no small part in that process." in fact, Lerner concludes something which Ms. Amiel no doubt would find startling, " Judaism may be one of Israel's most important casualties. The state that was created to preserve Jews may be at the center of the process that leads Jews away from their Jewishness" ] DOES it matter if the Jews as a people or nation continue to exist? Once this was the sort of question I played with at university over cups of bad coffee in the early Sixties. Were the Jews a race, a religion, a culture, a tribe? Whatever we were, we were living a good life in Britain, America and the West in general. In those simple, heady days, the state of Israel was seen as a heroic little country. [ Considering the fact that at the time Ms. Amiel pondered these profound questions, she was a college student without very much perspective on things, one might understand how she would have doubts about some of the above issues, and a grave misconception about what Israel truly is, which is anything but "a heroic little country". In order to make this clear, it becomes necessary to deconstruct virtually the entire thought process above. I think that to the first question posed, does it matter if the Jews as a people or a nation continue to exist, that the answer is Yes. However, just as one makes assumptions when asking another person if they "believe in God" and the other person answers in the affirmative; one must avoid certain assumptions to my answering Yes to her question. Answering the first question in the affirmative is contingent on what one means by Jews as a people. The late Rabbi Elmer Berger, wrote at great length on the quantum difference between Jewish people and THE Jewish people. There are manifestly, somewhere in the neighborhood of 15 to 16 million Jews in the world; so there are certainly enough people who are Jews to make that question rhetorical. However, since the inception of the Judaic religion, Judaism has always been a group of persons freely associating with the creed of Judaic thought. That one can cease being a Jew by virtue of conversion, or simply abandonment of that creed has always been an option. One can always change one's religious affiliation without much hindrance, unlike changing one's ethnic background. Are Jews a nation? No. The state of Israel is certainly a nation in the commonly understood definition of that term. But Jews are members of a religion. The early Zionists, such as Herzl and especially Chaim Weizmann, who ascended to the chair of the Zionist Organization after his predecessor's early death at the age of forty; would interchangeably use the word "people" and "nation" as it suited them, for the understanding of those controlling the great powers of the day - Great Britain, Imperial Russia, Germany, the Ottoman Empire and France. The document which came to be known as The Balfour Declaration was quite specific and careful in its diplomatic wording. "His Majesty's government approve with favour...a national home for the Jewish people..." At the time, the official language of the Z.O. was German, and in German, home and state under the word "heimstatte" are virtually interchangeable. Thus the high presumption made in this document, parenthetically over the strenuous objections of the one Jew in the British Cabinet at the time, Lord Edwin Montagu, Viceroy of India; is that THE Jewish people (which the Zionists always thought of as a nationality) needed their own STATE. This state of course would be national, not in the way one understands French or American nationalism, but a "herrenvolkest" state, in the manner of the German nationalism which led to the ascendancy of the Nazis under Hitler. Blood and soil was the watchword of the day in the Third Reich, along with the need for "liebensraum", breathing space for this German "volk", at the expense of all of the "non-Aryans" residing on German soil (blood). The urge is now to poke a bit of fun at Ms Amiel's lamenting over bad coffee. Since we are obviously contemporaries, as I too spent my college years in the socially revolutionary sixties, I too had my share of bad coffee, over "allnighters", and yes I'll admit it, unlike our lately unlamented ex-President, Bill Clinton; I did in fact, on more than one occasion - inhale. Having overindulged in some substances, it is easy to understand why a college student might bring forth questions, the answers to which had already been settled. No serious anthropologist considers Jews to be a race, so why even bother to raise the question? Since by definition, a Jew is someone who subscribes to the religion known as Judaism, it is on its face apparent that to be Jewish is to subscribe to a particular religion, however tenuously one does so. Even though many in other religions cannot understand the concept of how one might affirm they are an atheist while maintaining that one is a Jew; it must be mentioned that there is in fact a branch of Judaism composed of atheists known as Secular Humanistic Judaism; founded by Rabbi Sherwin T. Wine( ordained in the Reform movement at the HUC-JIR seminary) of Minnesota. The center of the movement is still located there at the Birmingham Temple. Rabbi Wine makes this case in his book, "Judaism Beyond God publ. KTAV Publishing House, 1995 jointly with the Society for Humanistic Judaism. Another important work from that particular branch of Judaism is "Judaism in a Secular Age - an anthology of Secular Humanistic Jewish Thought" also date and publishers the same. "A culture?" Not even close. I hate to disabuse most of my Jewish friends of that notion, but there has never been such a thing as a "Jewish culture". Rather, there have been any number of "Jewish cultures", all dependent on where any particular group of Jews found themselves at some point in history. All cultures have certain markers - a common language, common modes of dress, common foods, common folklore, even common recreational activities. Thus among Jews, especially those of northern and eastern Europe, and now the predominant population of Jews in N. America; there was certainly a specific culture known as Ashkenazic. I am a product of this culture, as my maternal grandparents came from the Pale of Settlement, and my Paternal grandparents from Austria-Hungary. This culture was distinquished by the use of Yiddish as the common language (Hebrew, being the "holy tongue" was restricted for use in prayer at shuls, and even sermons were delivered in Yiddish.), many of the Jews in the pale would wear what we now know as Hasidic modes of dress, while others would wear what was common among other people of that area. Certain foods which we now think of as "Jewish" hail from that region, such as bagels, smoked fish, prepared and seasoned meats and certain weekend stews (cholent). Folktales particular to that area were popularized in the general culture by the man we know as Shalom Aleichem; and woe to the son who did not practice on his violin. But this culture was not Jewish. Many Jews in Britain and N. America, are quite correct when they state that they "feel" Jewish. They certainly feel a distinctness, but that distinctness is not Jewish, it is Ashkenazic, as they are part of that great subdivision of Jews known as Ashkenazim. Distinct from their northern and eastern co-religionists were of course, the Sephardim, the "Spanish and Portuguese" Jews, who were expelled as we all know, and wound up in The Netherlands, in the New World, and in North Africa. The language of the Sephardim is Ladino; a completely different tongue than Yiddish with a different derivation. Much sephardic cooking incorporates rice and legumes, two things virtually unknown in Ashkenazic cooking. In fact, on the Passover, Sephardim are permitted rice whereas it is prohibited to Ashkenazim. Other cultural factors also fall into the same places. What do these two separate and disparate cultures have in common? They practice the same religion, Judaism, and that is all. The same case can be made for Jews from Arab countries, who culturally feel Arab, Persian Jews, Indian Jews and even Chinese Jews. Yes, Virginia, there is a kosher Chinese restaurant in NYC called Cho-Sen (get it?) but it is not the same thing as Chinese Jews. Are Jews a tribe? Only as in the snickering question, "Are you a member of the tribe? (M.O.T.)" Of course, this misconception comes from the biblical history of the twelve tribes, ten of which were "lost" (in reality the populace assimilated into the surrounding Assyrian culture), leaving only Judah and Benjamin, the latter being incorporated into the remaining kingdom of Judea (and hence the name Jew). However, since that time, those known as Jews have intermarried with the communities in which they found themselves, people have entered the religion, left the religion; and an entire country, Khazaria, was by royal decree converted to the Judaic religion. This country flourished as an important buffer state in the area north of the Baltic, Caspian and Aral seas, the latter two of which it half encapsulated between the years circa 700c.e. to 1100 c.e. Even today in afternoon Hebrew schools, children are taught the legend of King Bulan, and how he chose Judaism over both Christianity and Islam. The current country of the former USSR, Khazakstan, now approximates the borders of that ancient kingdom. Yes, whether British, American or other Western Jew, we were living the good life. How ironic that that very statement completely refutes one of the fundamental premises of Herzlian Political Zionism. This 19th century utopian philosophy, in all aspects a virtual mirror image of the virulent strain of 19th century racist, as distinguished from religious, Jew-hatred (anti-Semitism) was predicated on two tenets: (1) Jews were and are unassimilable into general European society (2) Because of (1) the "solution to the Jewish question in Europe" (a phrase invented by Herzl and only borrowed by Hitler) was to form a separate state....somewhere. What has been proven in this century is that both premises were not only incorrect but ludicrous. It is ironic that one of the things that scares modern Zionists the most is the high rate of acculturation (they prefer to use the word, assimilation, as a pejorative term) of Jews marrying "outside". In some sections of the U.S. this rate exceeds 50% of all marriages in which one of the spouses is a Jew. Was not the goal to be accepted among the population in general? What better proof than to take on and be accepted by a non-Jewish spouse and her family? As for "The Jewish State", I ask, in what country are Jews in more jeopardy merely for the fact that they are Jews, than in the state of Israel? In all countries in the West, Jews are completey free to worship as they please, where they please, and when they please, by rabbis of whatever sex and/or sexual orientation they please in some of the denominations without the censure of either the state or the head of the state religion, as they are in "The Jewish State". In Israel, of course, only one branch of Judaism is recognized as "torah true" and that of course is Orthodoxy. This is not merely custom but is incorporated into the laws of the State of Israel. Why on earth, any Jew seeking religious freedom would put up with such an anomaly is entirely beyond me.] Nothing essential about Israel has changed since then but the Zeitgeist has changed and, about 30 years ago, Israel went out of fashion. [ Woops, sorry love. Israel did not change fashion statements. What happened is that thirty years ago, Israel conquered in war (who started it is a valid point of contention, but keep in mind that Menachem Begin himself admitted that Israel did, and that he knew that Gamal Abdel Nasser was saber rattling. It was seen as an opportunity to grab land that the fix was in for with Britain and France in '56, but Ike held firm against his erstwhile WWII allies. ) all of the remainder of the territory of the former British Mandate, plus the Golan, plus Gaza, plus The Sinai. The only thing that had gone out of fashion, and that was since the end of WWII was the conquest of land by force of arms. ] This has created an irony that the early founders of Zionism never foresaw. [ Were Ms. Ariel to study just a little history, she would find that the early Zionist maps show a "greater Eretz Israel" which they intended to retake, on some maps encompassing everything from the Eastern shore of the Nile to the Euphrates, or as it is written in the Tenakh, "from the river Nile to the great river." The fact that the Nile has more than twice the drainage basin of the Euphrates and therefore ought to be "The Great River" was apparently lost on an all-knowing god. Be that as it may, other "more realistic" maps presented to both the formulators of the Balfour Declaration, and again to the powers meeting to divide up the middle east at the Paris Peace talks in 1919 by the Zionist Organization, show a "Jewish State" with the northern border on the Litani river (remember that "security zone"?) the eastern border extending to the Damascus-Petra-Amman railway, the southern border well into the Sinai, and the western border from El-Arish all the way up to Tyre, certainly shows that not only did the early founders foresee where they wanted the borders of the Jewish State to go, but that except for bugging out of the "security zone", and relinquishing the Sinai back to Egypt, they have pretty much accomplished what they set out to do!] Israel was established to spare Jews physical danger and anti-Semitism. [Well, that was the party line, it certainly was not the goal of the British. As for the Nazis, not only was the Yeshuv, the organized Jewish community in the Palestine Mandate, virtually useless, but there is remarkable and compelling evidence of cooperation by the Zionist hierarchy with the Third Reich. Well, don't take my word for it; read The Transfer Agreement by Edwin Black; the same author who has just released the worldwide bestseller about the collaboration between IBM and the Nazis. Or read Zionism in the Age of the Dictators by Lenni Brenner; or The Holocaust Victims Accuse, put out by the Neturei Karta ("the guardians of the city"), or Ben-Gurions Scandals by Naiam Giladi, who worked for the Mossad; or the classic in this regard, PERFIDY, by the great playwrite, Ben Hecht. Note every person writing these treatises is Jewish; not some wacko holocaust denier, or neoNazi apologist. ] The irony is that nowhere in the world does being a Jew carry a higher price-tag than in Israel. [ Well, she finally managed to get one thing correct!] The question that now begins to force itself upon some of us is one we have tried to avoid: is this grim scenario of killings and bombings and endless warfare worth it - to the world and, on a personal level, to our children? I think the answer is yes, but there are persuasive arguments to be confronted. [ This woman thinks that war is worth it? Well, Ms. Amiel, if you think such nasty things are so compelling, why haven't you made "aliyah", and joined the IDF upon embarcation. I'm sure someone there, perhaps the war criminal Ariel Sharon, would be more than willing to put you at some front line action - perhaps Hebron? Moreover, warfare is NEVER endless. It is only the obstinacy of refusing to see the truth in all of this that makes it seem endless. Here for your consideration, Ms Amiel is the pure distillate - YOU STOLE THEIR LAND, THEY WANT IT BACK. This is not complicated, it is actually very simple, and has been the cause of all wars against colonialism for as long as colonialism has existed. The given is that when the native population that has been colonized exceeds that of the colonizer, the colony eventually fails, be it of a regular colonialist nature, or as in the case of Israel, of a settler colonialist nature. ] The reaction of much of the media and many commentators to the election of Ariel Sharon has been a lightning rod for this hostility to Israel. "Is Ariel Sharon Israel's Milosevic?" asked the LA Times. The Independent's Review section led with a front that described Sharon in oversize type as a man whose "name is synonymous with butchery; with bloated corpses and disembowelled women and dead babies, with rape and pillage and murder" [ Yes, and with good reason. Most people still remember the massacres at Sabra and Shatilla in Lebanon during the unprovoked invasion of that country by a Sharon-influenced-Begin in 1982. A Court of Law IN ISRAEL found Sharon responsible for that massacre by Phalange forces, to the extent that the recommendation was made that he never serve as Defence minister again. They forgot to throw in Prime Minister, too bad. However, many, including I dare say, Ms. Amiel, have completely forgotten, or have never heard of Force 101, commanded by the young Lieutenant Sharon which massacred over 40 defenseless women and children in the town of Qibya back in 1953, or which invaded and killed scores of people in el-Bureij in Gaza in late 1955 in an effort to provoke Egypt into the Suez Canal war. There are other skeletons in the closet of "The Bulldozer" as well. ] The Guardian's special report on the Middle East contained a piece by journalist David Hirst. Hirst, a regular contributor to the online English language Lebanese Daily Star, made his position on the Middle East quite clear in a January 25 article for the Star. [ David Hirst is also the author of the highly praised history of the region titled "The Gun and the Olive Branch." Ms. Amiel might do well to pick up a copy. It is more readily available in Britain than it is back here in the colonies. ] For him, the state of Israel is a "colonialist enterprise" and any solution to the conflict begins with the assumption that every inch of Israel is "usurped land" and the entire entity is illegitimate. [ And there you have it.] Yesterday's Observer ran a poem by the highly regarded Arts Council recipient Tom Paulin that described "the Zionist SS". One can take the view, legitimately, that Israel is a disputed land with two peoples each believing it is theirs, and that it is difficult to say who is right or wrong. What is immoral and illogical is to talk about international law, rights and wrongs, and then blithely disregard every rule, whether it is the UN resolution establishing Israel, [ Ms. Amiel may find this difficult. I find it blessedly easy. Since she brought up international law, why not discuss that for a moment. The Hague Convention of 1908, set terms for the treatment of non-belligerents on conquered territories. Now it is obvious that Israel was not a signatory to that since it didn't yet exist, yet upon its establishment in 1948, the governing body of Israel agreed to abide by that convention. Moreover, Israel IS a signatory to the Geneva IV convention which is extremely specific on the same matter, and of which Israel has either disregarded, ignored, circumvented or spat on every article thereof. As for UN resolution 181, which was the international resolution voted on by a narrow majority in the General Assembly (try to get it passed now!) on a second vote, and after much arm twisting; which gave "international legitimacy" to a "Jewish State" also set up an "Arab State" with Jerusalem as a "corpus separatum" belonging to neither. Monday Quarterbacking of course is not very fair, but in hindsight, had the Arabs accepted this, I believe there would be no Jewish state at the current time. In fact, it may have lasted less than a decade since inside its borders as directed by that resolution, 45% of the population was Arab. What would Ben-Gurion have done without the pretext of the refusal of the Arab states. Of course, can the Palestinian Arabs be blamed for refusing to turn over the choicer parts of an area (The Mandate) of which they owned 94% to settle for 45% of land much of which was not arable (like the Negev?)? The Arabs rightly saw this action as not only an insult but once again a betrayal, as had occurred in the aftermath of WWI by the Western Powers. At that time, Britain and France, acting under the secret Sykes-Picot agreement which contradicted both the Hussein-McMahon Letters of Correspondence, AND The Balfour Declaration at the same time; divided up the entire area of Greater Syria between them. So once again the Arabs saw that the fix was in and they smelled a very large rat by the name of Uncle Sam. It was the specific goal of the leadership of the Yeshuv, and then of the new state, to grab as much of the Arab designated territory as possible before the great powers made their move. And they did. And in the process threw 750,000 souls off their ancestral land, stole their property and forced what now amounts to over two milion to live in squalor. But lets for the moment forget about 181 and jump to UNGA 194. This resolution, the quid pro quo for the admission of Israel into the United Nations, required that Ben-Gurion agree to repatriation and restitution of the refugees. He agreed, then once Israel was in, he welched on the deal. This resolution has been reconfirmed in every successive GA since then; and what is amazing is that Israel has not been tossed out on its rump from the assembly, in the same way that the Apartheid South Africa was dealt with. A careful reading of the "Oslo Peace Treaty" shows that it is in reality, or thankfully WAS, a mechanism to circumvent UN resolutions 242 and 338 on which it was allegedly based. The more correct term for Oslo should be "The Oslo Articles of Conditional Surrender". Arafat undoubtedly never read the document, preferring to take the money and running to the nearest numbered Swiss bank account, or perhaps swimming to the Cayman Islands. There is of course the wry joke told by Palestinians among themselves about why Arafat can't sink - His lips keep him afloat. ] the Oslo Accords, or laws against targeting civilians in terrorist attacks or using civilians as shields for military attacks. This is like umpiring a boxing match and letting your favourite contestant take a submachine gun into the ring while shrilly pointing out any rules broken by his opponent. [ And that presumably is why 94% of the fatalities and casualties in the current hostilities have been born by Palestinians?] The Israelis are exhausted by it all. The country has been in a state of war that started five hours after it came into being in 1948. [ Once again demonstrating her poor grasp of history, Ms. Amiel overlooks that fact that civil war in The Mandate started in earnest in 1947 as soon as Britain announced to the world that it was giving up the ghost and going somewhere more profitable, although it never announced just where that was. But then, when all else fails you could always invade Canada, eh? The fighting never really stopped, and in truth had been going on since the 20s, based on provocations from both sides, if one is to be entirely honest. ] This low-level war of 52 years has been interspersed with armed truces, but it has never ceased and it is predicated on one simple fact: the rejection by the Arab world of the UN vote to partition Palestine into an Arab and a Jewish state in the Middle East. You can argue whether or not this rejection is justified, and I have some sympathy for the arguments of the Arabs, who had nothing to do with the Holocaust in Europe that gave impetus to the establishment of the state of Israel in their midst. [ The Nazi holocaust against the Jews of Europe had nothing to do in essence with the plans for A Jewish State. Those plans were on the books long before Adolf Hitler did his worst. I will concede that the realization of the world, of those horrors certainly generated sympathy,goyisha guilt, however one must remember that the Zionists, like the Nazis, used the genocide as a form of eugenics. They only wanted to take those Jews who were able-bodied and of breeding age. Yes, I know that is coarse, but then, the Zionists were coarse when the leader of the Zionist Organization, Weizmann, referred to the majority of "ostjuden" as "human dust", unworthy of being saved, and in fact, a detriment to the gene pool in the Zionist quest to create "The New Hebrew man and woman." Hitler would have been pleased had he lived to see it. Ms. Amiel really must read either The Holocaust Victims Accuse, or Perfidy. Ben Hecht by the way was a member of the Irgun, so his terrorist credentials are entirely in order. Oh yes, that great humanitarian and Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Weasel (sic) was also a member of the Irgun. I almost forgot.] But the fact of their non-acceptance is undeniable. Even Egypt, signer of the first peace treaty with Israel, has never established anything more than a cold-war accommodation with its Jewish neighbour. [ So that makes Egypt, presumably, Israel's Moslem neighbor? Ms. Amiel, keep in mind that peace is merely the absence of hostilities. One does not need to play kissy face. When the Brits kissed the French, did they turn into handsome princes, or were most of them still frogs? ] Indeed, of late, the anti-Israeli rhetoric has been heating up in Egypt. Last December, in the government-sponsored weekly October magazine, a two-part article by General Hassan Sweilem, "The Jewish personality and Israeli actions", concluded: "Historians, race-studies professors and sociologists agree that humanity throughout its long history has never known a race such as the Jewish race in which so many bad qualities, base and loathsome, have been gathered." The series included anti-Semitic remarks attributed to George Washington and Benjamin Franklin, first used in a vicious forgery that appeared in 1935 in Germany in the Nazis' Handbook on the Jewish Question. [ Well, bravo Ms. Amiel. Of all of the cogent things and intelligent things written in the Egyptian press, as exemplified by the weekly Al-Ahram, you managed to find a certified anti-semite, to condemn the entire intelligentsia of Egypt by. No, I am not defending those noxious words at all, but perhaps you ought to take time to read some of the legitimate critiques. ] Once you face the fact that what exists in the Middle East is a war, albeit a low-level one, the futility of trying to judge individual acts is obvious. The world judges the warring parties anyway, according to the spirit of the times. There was a time when, perhaps wrongly, every Palestinian act was considered one of terrorism and similar Israeli acts were never condemned. That lasted until the end of the 1960s. Now the climate is such that only Israelis are judged. [ Hey, remember when the Indians were the wild savages and the White men were all the good guys protectin' their wimmin' from a-scalpin' an' worst? Then along came Dancing With Wolves and Black Robe and ruined all of our fun. John Wayne died for our sins, you know. "Do not forsake me oh mah dahlin' On this are weddin' day,......" - High Noon - "Watchyou mean, "we" Kimosabe?" - Tonto - ] Arab rejectionism is more obdurate than ever because it is closer than ever to succeeding. Morale in Israel is low. Emigration is an option when the computer age makes it feasible for labour to be mobile. [ Actually emigration was a big option even back in the horse and buggy days. In the early days of the Yeshuv, for several years, there were more people leaving than coming, and this of course had the Zionists very worried. Then Hitler came along and solved their problems. Isn't that amazing? Quite the coincidence. Then of course there were the millions of Jews who fled via any means possible, from the pogroms of the Tsars, and the closest any of them ever came to a computer was an abacus. ] You can as easily do your job in Cincinnati as Ramat Gan and not worry about a bomb going off on a bus. [ Well apparently you haven't been to Cincinnati recently, or Baltimore, Detroit, Philadelphia or any of the other crumbling inner cities of the U.S. How's Manchester by the way? ] The Arabs are many, the Israelis few. As the Muslim world has said, we can outwait you and we will prevail. [ Is that what they said? You mean they didn't say they were going to throw the Jews into the sea? I coulda sworn that was what Ami Isseroff of PeaceWatch told me. ] Islam is on an upswing throughout the world. I come from a British Jewish family that was all but assimilated. [ Which part of you was NOT assimilated.] I barely understand a word of Hebrew or Yiddish, yet my personal pride comes from my Jewish identity. [ Since the estimable Ms. Amiel concedes that she is "all but assimilated", does not understand two of the several languages associated with Jews, I seriously question what precisely it is that she uses to self-identify as a Jew? Could it be the universalist values instilled by the prophets? Nah, she already stated she was in favor of continuing war if that's what it took. Jeremiah would definitely not approve, nor would Isaiah and certainly not Micah. Could it be a deep and abiding respect for the bare minimum of Judaism, "do not do unto others that which is hateful to yourself, that is the entire Torah, all the rest is commentary?" Nah, she thinks there is some latitude to the dispute. What happened to a few of the Big Ten - You shall not steal, you shall not lie, You shall not murder, You shall not covet that which is your neighbors? Those are manifestly things which one could follow which would impart Jewish identity. I hope her Jewish identity does not simply extend to "gustatory Judaism", which means that she assiduously eats smoked salmon with her kippers on Sunday mornings. ] Given this, how can I fail to understand how strong the tribal sense of belonging must be to those among the Arab and Islamic world, many of whom are devout, highly religious and brought up with a narrow perspective on the world compared with Western notions of liberalism? [ And Ms. Amiel thoroughly studied the Qu'ran with Imam.......? ] The problem with nationalism - or tribalism and deism - is that the people who are immersed in it generally oppose everyone else's version, while those who are distanced from it don't understand the power of such notions and blithely bash on, trying to build happy multicultural constructs. At the same time, Jews themselves lack some essential character traits for survival. We can be excellent soldiers and commandos. We may even have the odd sadist or death squad. But we don't revel in it. [ ..and how nice to make these broad generalizations about groups of people. Gee, Herr Goebbels would be proud! ] We cannot contemplate mass population transfers and the extermination of a people or nascent state as the price for the survival of Judaism. It is not in the Jewish temperament. [ What on earth would this "all but assimilated" Jewish woman know about "Jewish temperament", whatever on earth that is, and frankly I'm highly insulted by the characterization that there is such a thing. I'm sure Ms. Amiel is also an expert on "The Arab Mind", as were many "Orientalists" at the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. Oh yes, I suppose "all dem niggers be lazy" yessuh massa, as well. It's just part of their "temperament", but damn they're fast. ] What many sentimental or Left-wing Jews, both inside and outside Israel, do dream of is a multicultural Israel in which Jew and Arab live together in harmony in one land under a flag flying both the red crescent and the Star of David. [ Well you could pick out a different color scheme for the new flag, but on the other hand this is a contemplation devoutly to be wished, before we shuffle off this mortal coil. It would be rather nice, rather than constantly bearing the slings and arrows and stuff you know. By the way, since you're a Brit, I've always wanted to know something. What's a fardle? And why would be bear it? ] Nice stuff if you could get it. If, deep down, some of these Jews understand that within one hour of the crescent going up on the Jewish flag, Israel as a Jewish state would end, they either don't care or are in denial. [ And hey, that's not just a river in Egypt, either.] An Islamic state is not an inclusive state and has no room for full citizenship for practising Jews. [ Or even non-practicing, "all but assimilated Jews" who speak neither "Hebrew nor Yiddish" as Ms. Amiel has so eloquently stated. But then again, there is a presumption that this new entity would be an Islamic State, and not a completely secular state. What is it that makes Ms. Amiel think this. Moreover, if she practices no religion, why should she care? Because she "feels Jewish". She has no idea what a Jew is! ] Would it really matter if Israel ceased to exist? For the extraordinary achievements of its 52 years alone, it deserves to exist. [ Kindly name some of those "extraordinary achievements". OK, here's one in the annals of jurisprudence - The Present-Absentees Law. That's my personal favorite. ] But, in the past 50 years since the end of the Second World War, the actual necessity of a Jewish homeland seems to have progressively diminished. Overt anti-Semitism has been all but vanquished. Certainly, Jews appear to have given the Western world disproportionate gifts in the arts, literature and sciences. [ Ms. Amiel appears to be hung up on the collective. "Jews" did not give this to the Western World. Individuals who just happened to be Jews did. There just aren't those many Einsteins, Freuds, Salks, Sabins, and Stanley Kubricks (he's a homey of mine) to go around. And thankfully there aren't those many Elie Weasels to go around either. And there was only one Groucho. "My name is Captain Spalding, The eminent explorer Did someone call me Schnorrer? Dadadadada dup dup." - Groucho Marx - "Oh that this too too solid flesh would melt, Thaw and resolve itself into a dew." - that was either Jean Neidich or Fergy, The Dutchess of York, I think. But one of the great unknowables is whether an unassimilated group makes more or less of a contribution than assimilated peoples. We don't know what the Samaritans or Babylonians, never mind the Visigoths, have given to the world since they disappeared into the greater population pool. [ Actually the Samaritans still exist and live near Nablus. What they have taught the world is the dangers of inbreeding, similar to our own Mississipians, Alabamans and Cajuns on this side of the lake. ] Myself, I'd be sympathetic to the view that the unusual contribution Jews have made to the world may have been due to the peculiar position that we have never been fully assimilated, or become masters of our own culture, and this has been a spur to Jewish achievement. This is purely speculation and has no scientific basis at all. [ That's a relief, because besides being an interminable run-on sentence it is a total brain fart.] While organised anti-Semitism has been eliminated in the world today, the situation of the Jews hasn't fundamentally changed. Notwithstanding the moderating forces of liberalism and the fact that we can live peacefully anywhere, the same forces that turned Germany into Nazi Germany still exist in the world. [ I knew you had to be reading up on Richard Icke and the reptiles.] Any people such as the Jews who do not have a country of their own may forever be at the mercy of any virus that takes hold. We might live peacefully for the next five generations without Israel. After all, about five generations of Jews managed quite well from the time of the Habsburgs' Joseph II until the end of the Weimar Republic, suffering only those restrictions that were totally normal in any place at that time that had a Leitkultur or dominant culture. [ ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....................................................] Only the Israelis can make the decision on whether to keep up the fight for their country. All they really want is to be accepted by their neighbours as a nation like any other. If that were genuine, all the squabbling about holy places, settlers and borders could easily be resolved. Israelis want to be able to travel from A to B without fear of ambushes. [ as opposed to EVERY PALESTINIAN who can't "get there from here"without a myriad of "peppers" as in "Vere er yur peppers? ACHTUNG!! ARBEIT MACHT FREI!!!!! ] They want to stop worrying whether or not their children will survive military service - a requirement that is not simply a year or two of some discomfort and disruptions, as it may be in other countries that have an active military service, but a lottery in which their sons and daughters may not come out alive. Without Israel, it is hard to see how all Jews in the diaspora could avoid assimilation. [ If you are barely Jewish, why are you concerned with a "diaspora". If you are "all but assimilated" do you truly believe you are in exile? And if you truly believe you are in exile, what the heck is stopping you >from making "aliyah"? C'mon, if not for yourself, then do it for Edgar. Hey, Birthright Israel and all that swill you know. ] Jews have survived more than 2,000 years in the single, unshakeable belief that one day their dislocation would end with their return to the Promised Land. This is the central underpinning of Judaism. "Next year in Jerusalem" [ It is certainly a blessed thing that Ms. Amiel is NOT a rabbi. Not even close. Ms. Amiel as she admits understands NOTHING about Judaism, if she thinks that the central underpinning of Judaism is "next year in Jerusalem". The absolutely, fundamental tenet of Judaism is this: "Choose life" In fact, just that is written on the walls of many Synagogues. Not "Next year in Jerusalem, but this year in Cancun" as I've heard so many joke at Pesach seders. By choosing Zionism over Judaism, Ms. Amiel chooses death, for Zionism, just like the legendary golden calf, will melt of its own weight as an abomination before man and God, but especially before man. ] is the single phrase every Jew hears and remembers from the moment he can speak. [ Actually the first thing I remember speaking was "Hey, cut that out!" That was to the mohel. ] If, this time, Israel is destroyed and the Jews leave, whether through progressive absorption into an Islamic state or bloody warfare, there seems little chance of a Third Temple and a return. Without the possibility of Israel, Judaism becomes pointless. [ Third Temple? Judaism has survived for 2,000 years without a third temple. Moreover, in case you hadn't noticed, it has progressed immeasurably beyond the days of animal sacrifice and priests. Moreover, how would you know when Judaism would become pointless, since you have no idea what Judaism is to begin with? You know what, without Israel, Judaism undergoes a renaissance. More progress has been made within the religion of Judaism, since 1948, outside of the state of Israel, than anything The Jewish State had to contribute to the growth of religious sensibilities. ] In the diaspora, the remaining practising Jews may well face unbearable burdens. [ Yes. I'm afraid my BMW is finally on its last legs. You know what, I can't take the flatulence anymore. If one is a practicing Jew in a free country, who is placing a burden on the person? Is not that person free to practice their religion in peace without interference, even if virtually everyone around is not practicing any particular creed? Who would bother this person? Is that what a fardle is? ] We have put to rest the curse that we were responsible for the death of Christ. [ Thank God. Amen. ] But if a Jewish state is eliminated from the Middle East, our children may inherit such canards, for example, as our supposed role as persecutors of the brave victorious Palestinian people. Losers do not get a hearing. The Israelis will make their decision whether to carry on the draining struggle for a Jewish state, but all Jews, even the anti-Israel Jewish journalists in the West, may yet bear the consequences of that decision. [ And I'll only have myself to blame. Which is why my friends call me Wolfie. "Hey there little red ridin' hood, You sure are lookin' good, 'Cause yur everthang that a big bad wolf could want..." Sheesh, this trash makes a major British newspaper? Where's Robert Fisk when we need him? Or Chris Hitchens? What pub? Heheheh........ I mean BAddddddddddd................... Sorry gang, I couldn't stay serious with some of this pure utter bilge. I know y'all are forgiving......] Zevei From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:33 EST 2001 Article: 258060 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9203B8.C20DEA89@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa Subject: Re: Dragging a dead body. What horror. References: <3A5F88CF.847260DF@bellsouth.net> <3A5F893F.2A6F3FC0@cypress.nrlssc.navy.mil> <3a6306a3$2$fuzhry$mr2ice@va.news.verio.net> <96qcdt$g49$1@bob.news.rcn.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 40 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:42:16 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.48 X-Trace: news2.atl 982647638 66.20.149.48 (Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:40:38 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:40:38 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173507 soc.culture.palestine:112254 soc.culture.israel:325990 soc.culture.canada:258060 soc.culture.british:549271 soc.culture.usa:599467 I realize that it is easy to write dismissive oneliners. The poster is right, all the wars save the October War were started by Israel. Schwarz is merely spouting the Zionist party line, as usual. RLA Omri Schwarz wrote: > Nonsense. > > "Point" writes: > > > All the war except 1 were started by Israel. > > > > "meshehu" wrote in message > > news:meshehu-1902010724420001@ppp-3055-m1-14.dialup.eol.ca... > > > In article <96qcdt$g49$1@bob.news.rcn.net>, "David Martin" > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > "Israel has no future in a harmonious fraternity of peoples unless it is > > > > "de-Zionized," that is, becomes devoted to the admirable Jewish faith of > > the > > > > Prophets, whose goal was not nationalist and colonialist military > > conquest, > > > > but rather bringing the divine message to the whole world." > > > > > > > > > > That's a stupid quote. The reason israel is so nationalist and military in > > > the first place is because of all the wars the arabs keep waging. > > > > > > -- > Omri Schwarz --- > Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering: > "Noise is principally due to the presence of the > patient." -- R.F. Farr From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:34 EST 2001 Article: 258062 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A920425.9E362CBF@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Re: Seven Palestinians have died in 48 hours. 84 Palestinians injured References: <3A8FFAC0.D9585EA4@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:44:05 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.48 X-Trace: news2.atl 982647747 66.20.149.48 (Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:42:27 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:42:27 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173508 soc.culture.israel:325991 soc.culture.usa:599469 soc.culture.canada:258062 soc.culture.british:549272 Live by the sword, die by the sword. That there could be another choice never enters Mr. Schwarz's pea brain. RLA Omri Schwarz wrote: > Roger Alexander writes: > > > > > Israel is determined to suppress all resistance to its brutal, > > illegitimate regime. > > Better that than be dhimmies. > > -- > Omri Schwarz --- > Timeless wisdom of biomedical engineering: > "Noise is principally due to the presence of the > patient." -- R.F. Farr From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:34 EST 2001 Article: 258063 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A920A83.AFB33EE5@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.iraq,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada Subject: UNITED STATES AND BRITAIN ISOLATED AFTER ATTACK ON IRAQ Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 115 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 00:11:15 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.48 X-Trace: news3.atl 982649377 66.20.149.48 (Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:09:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 01:09:37 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173511 soc.culture.iraq:67869 soc.culture.british:549273 soc.culture.usa:599479 soc.culture.canada:258063 UNITED STATES AND BRITAIN ISOLATED AFTER ATTACK ON IRAQ Ali Abunimah February 17, 2001 The United States and United Kingdom stood almost isolated as they were roundly condemned by the international community for their unprovoked attack on Baghdad on Friday which killed two Iraqi civilians and injured twenty others. The British and American governments said the attacks were "self-defense." Loud criticism of the attack came from governments and media all over the world, and thousands of Palestinians marched in Tulkarm and Hebron in the occupied West Bank to oppose the attack on Iraq, even as at least two more Palestinians were shot dead for protesting continuing Israeli occupation. Leading the criticism was Russia which said the attack violated international law and U.N. Security Council resolutions. Russian Deputy Presidential Chief of Staff Sergei Prikhodko said Russia always "strongly opposes any U.S. military actions, whomever they are against, if these actions bypass the U.N. Security Council resolutions." A spokesperson for the French foreign ministry said that France was neither informed or consulted about the attack, which France believes "raised questions." In 1998 France withdraw from enforcing the unilaterally imposed "no fly" zones and has since been highly critical of Anglo-American policy and attacks on Iraq. Belarus, a close ally of Moscow said in a statement from its foreign ministry that "Such actions should be regarded as an open violation of international law which undermines the U. N. system of maintaining international peace and security. Such actions can only aggravate the situation on the regional and global scales." China, whose embassy in Belgrade was bombed and destroyed in a U.S. attack in 1999 also strongly criticised the Anglo-American action. Foreign ministry spokesman Zhu Bangzao said "We condemn the air attacks launched by the United States and Britain against Iraq, and express deep regret over the deaths and injuries of innocent civilians resulting from the action." Iraq's neighbor Iran denounced the attack in a commentary on Tehran Radio, saying "The violent attacks of the American air force are signs of the adventurism of the new administration of George W. Bush," and "This surprise attack adds to the growing violence in the Middle East," in reference to the continued violence by Israeli occupation forces against the Palestinian people. Turkey, a member of NATO, whose military-dominated government allows the United States to launch planes against Iraq from the Incirlik airbase also condemned the Anglo-American attack. Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit said "We followed the military operation with concern. It is regrettable that a need was felt for such an operation and that civilians were affected." Ecevit also expressed regret that the United States had not consulted Turkey over the action. Atal Behari Vajpayee, the prime minister of India called the attack on Iraq "unacceptable" saying that "India has consistently opposed the unilateral imposition of the no-fly zones on Iraq" because "They do not come within the framework of United Nations Security Council resolutions." Vajpayee added that "Such strikes cause unnecessary and avoidable suffering upon the innocent men, women and childen of Iraq." While popular and media reaction in the Arab world was sharply against the newest American aggression, and many commentators noted that once again Arabs are being killed and injured at the hands of both Israel and the United States simultaneously, reaction from governments was more muted. In Jordan the main dailies which usually reflect government thinking strongly condemned the attacks as "cowardly" and featured prominent photos of civilian victims. While Arab League Secretary General Esmat Abd El Meguid said the attack on Iraq had "had no justification," Generally, however, Arab governments, particularly those in the Gulf maintained silence. Iraq accuses Kuwait and Saudi Arabia which allow themselves to be used as bases for American attacks on Iraq of being accomplices. The United States found some support from Poland. A spokesman for prime minister Jerzy Buzek said the attacks were "understandable." Poland joined NATO, the U.S.-led military alliance in 1999. Canada's prime minister, Jean Chretien, betraying a disturbing ignorance about Iraq said that his country was not informed about the attack in advance but that "This is the protection of the freezone ... there is an agreement there and when it's not respected the enforcement of the agreement is done by the Brits and the Americans and they do it on their own without consultation with us." There is in fact no "agreement" regarding any "no fly zones." These zones were unilaterally created and imposed by the United States and are not mentioned in any U.N. resolutions or the ceasefire agreements Iraq signed ending the Gulf War ten years ago. In the United States leading newspapers such as The New York Times welcomed the American attack and most electronic media broadcast Pentagon justifications without criticism, comment or dissenting analysis. American media downplayed or omitted mention of Iraqi civilians killed and injured by frequent U.S. bombardment, including the latest attack. While international reaction to the U.S.-led action was loud and clear, the question remains as to whether the United States is able to hear it. Ali Abunimah ali@abunimah.org http://www.abunimah.org From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:34 EST 2001 Article: 258084 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A92825D.78E7DF8@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.iraq,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada Subject: British MP slams U.S.-British air strike on Iraq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:42:37 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.48 X-Trace: news2.atl 982680050 66.20.149.48 (Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:40:50 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:40:50 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173527 soc.culture.iraq:67883 soc.culture.usa:599563 soc.culture.british:549419 soc.culture.canada:258084 British MP slams U.S.-British air strike on Iraq Baghdad |Reuters | 20-02-01 A British member of parliament yesterday denounced as "immoral, cowardly and terrorist" a U.S.-British air attack three days ago on targets near Baghdad. George Galloway, of Britain's ruling Labour Party, condemned his own country and the United States during a visit to a Baghdad hospital where he was told Friday's air strikes had killed two civilians and wounded more than 20. "It is an immoral, cowardly and terrorist act," said Galloway, who has been campaigning for an end to economic sanctions against Iraq imposed for its 1990 invasion of Kuwait. Galloway spoke to doctors at Yarmouk hospital in Baghdad treating those wounded in the attack. "Turn your cameras to this boy and tell me if it is a military target," he told reporters while standing near a 10- year-old child wounded in the attack. "We are bombing these children in the north and south of the country and now we are bombing them in the capital," he said, referring to U.S. and British warplanes patrolling no-fly zones in north and south Iraq set up soon after the 1991 Gulf War. Galloway said that an Iraqi child dies every eight minutes because of the decade-old UN sanctions. He blamed the continuation of the sanctions on his own government and that of the United States. "It is immoral to starve children and cut children with hot steel from airplanes because of a political dispute," he said. Washington and London have been adopting a strict policy against Baghdad and the two governments want to see the sanctions continuing on Iraq. Galloway said that the U.S. and British policy against Iraq was strengthening President Saddam Hussein. "I honestly wonder sometimes that the British and Americans are working for Saddam Hussein, because the policy they are pursuing is boosting his standing around the world rather than reducing it." Washington and London said their planes had targeted Iraq's defence systems around Baghdad. In December 1998, U.S. and British planes launched an extensive, four-day bombing campaign against Iraq. From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:35 EST 2001 Article: 258085 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9283D5.CD0F9C31@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa Subject: Re: Dragging a dead body. What horror. References: <3A5F88CF.847260DF@bellsouth.net> <3A5F893F.2A6F3FC0@cypress.nrlssc.navy.mil> <3a6306a3$2$fuzhry$mr2ice@va.news.verio.net> <96qcdt$g49$1@bob.news.rcn.net> <3A9203B8.C20DEA89@bellsouth.net> <3a925e8f.322618@east.usenetserver.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 26 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 08:48:54 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.48 X-Trace: news2.atl 982680426 66.20.149.48 (Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:47:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 09:47:06 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173531 soc.culture.palestine:112266 soc.culture.israel:326033 soc.culture.canada:258085 soc.culture.british:549421 soc.culture.usa:599565 I'm not an expert on Palestinian history, so anything I say about that time is not worth writing. I do understand that the Arabs reacted to the Jewish immigration with some violence. RLA PF wrote: > On Mon, 19 Feb 2001 23:42:16 -0600, Roger Alexander > wrote: > > I'm not trying to vindicate Israeli aggression or to frame it as > "self-defense", but wouldn't it be accurate to say that the earliest > clashes (1920's-30's) between Zionists and Palestinians were > instigated by Palestinians? > > (I don't think that "you hit me first" justifies Israel's past or > current offensives; just trying to get the record straight for my own > knowledge) > > >I realize that it is easy to write dismissive oneliners. The poster is right, all > >the wars save the > >October War were started by Israel. Schwarz is merely spouting the Zionist party > >line, > >as usual. > >RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:35 EST 2001 Article: 258121 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9315DF.2E83DA2A@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.iraq,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada Subject: Re: UNITED STATES AND BRITAIN ISOLATED AFTER ATTACK ON IRAQ References: <3A920A83.AFB33EE5@bellsouth.net> <5cwk6.217474$65.1299933@news1.rdc1.fl.home.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 21 Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 19:11:59 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.136 X-Trace: news3.atl 982717820 208.63.204.136 (Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:10:20 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2001 20:10:20 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173591 soc.culture.iraq:67927 soc.culture.british:549624 soc.culture.usa:599758 soc.culture.canada:258121 Well, I wouldn't go quite that far Mr. Gildersleeve. Any moral person doesn't want a whole country, or a single innocent person, for that matter, to be killed. Of course, if you happen to be a dedicated cult member, such as Zionists are, then morality is not a question for you. RLA Diddly Whoot wrote: > Hate to blow your bubble, but it is really not that big of a deal. Nobody > really gives a rats ass if Iraq is bombed off the map. Don't listen to all > the hot wind from various countries and their politicians, just wind. , they > really do not care, except for France who would like to get their big > outstanding loan to Iraq paid. > > Conduct a little poll in the USA and UK and see what most normal folks > think, half will say nuke the prick before we have BIO or chemical attach in > one of our cities. > > big snip of nonsense~~~~~~ From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:35 EST 2001 Article: 258159 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!cyclone2.usenetserver.com!news-out.usenetserver.com!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A945ED3.A1095124@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Israelis-Tell Your Children By: E. Yaghi Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 81 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:35:31 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.217 X-Trace: news3.atl 982802013 208.63.206.217 (Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:33:33 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:33:33 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173743 soc.culture.israel:326426 soc.culture.palestine:112398 soc.culture.usa:600168 soc.culture.canada:258159 soc.culture.british:549935 Israelis-Tell Your Children By: E. Yaghi Israelis, you tell yourselves and the world that Palestine was always Jewish. We, the Palestinian people, ask you therefore that when you teach your school children about how Palestine was always Jewish, to instead tell them the truth. Tell them that we Palestinians are the native inhabitants of our land. You teach your generations of children that all your victories are just battles, but whenever we rise up against the yoke of oppression you have placed upon us, our reprisals against the slaughter of our people are called terrorist acts. We ask you to tell the truth and not to lie. Tell yourselves and your children about how your Haganah, Irgun and Stern gangs massacred Palestinians at Deir Yassin, Ein Az Zeitun, Lydda, Safsaf, Saliha, and at Duwayma where 100 women and children were slaughtered. Tell them how you killed our children there by smashing in their skulls. Tell them too about the massacres at Balad as Sheikh, Qibya (Jordan) and Sabra and Shatella (Lebanon) and others too many to mention. Your history books teach that Palestinians are murderers and terrorists. We only fight in self-defense. We only fight when we can bear no more of your oppression, your siege of our towns and villages, of your closure of our airport, of your demolishing our homes, shelling our villages, bulldozing our farms and uprooting our trees. You have taken our land, pillaged and plundered us, dispossessed us of a way of living. When we rise to protect ourselves, our homes, our children, you call us violent, but when you use tear gas, nerve gas, bombard us by air, land and sea, you are called brave and patriots. You call us treacherous, but you make no mention of your own treachery, or the UN resolutions you fail to recognize or enforce. Your peace proposals to us merely portion off more of our land while you continue to encourage your Jewish “in-gathering” and build more settlements on the remnants of what is left to us. You call yourselves civilized and brand us as savages. But I ask you, is it civilized to kill women and children? Is it civilized to attack our homes as we sleep? And how civilized can any people be when they imprison and torture children? What then is civilization? If you measure it by a noble religion, philosophy, art, poetry, stirring music, a rich legacy, we had all of these. Our poetry was renowned for its beauty even before God sent down to mankind the Holy Koran. Western civilization was built on our vast contributions to the arts and sciences. Some of our songs and poetry carry the sounds of nature, the running of waters, the sighing of the sea-borne winds and the calls of our wild animals. Teach our rich legacy to your children so they may come to love nature and the arts as we love and have loved them. Some of our stories have been passed down to us through the noble generations of our ancestors who sat around fireplaces telling our wide-eyed forefathers the glorious legends of our past. Why not teach your children some of our folklore and our proverbs? Tell them too, how we loved all that is beautiful. While you sit around your lush swimming pools stealing our water from us and not even providing us with enough to drink in the ghettos you have placed us in, tell your children how we made use of all the resources we consumed and wasted nothing. Tell your children how there was a time when Palestinians and Jews lived in harmony and peace. During the Islamic Empire, you flourished as a people and it was only when Saladin re-took Jerusalem in 1187 that you trickled back into the city that now you claim as only Jewish and your eternal capital. Tell your children that you are the new Hitlers and that the Diaspora is now ours and that the Holocaust has become Palestinian. Tell your children that Israel is a democracy only for Jews and that you try your best to drive us, the natives of our land, out of our homes so that more Jews from all over the world can take our place. Teach your children that the true mark of any civilization is when the dignity and integrity of all are respected. We, the Palestinians, ask you Israelis to stop the slaughter of our people and to keep our memory sacred. From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:36 EST 2001 Article: 258161 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A946271.2714CC9@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: The revolt of the guinea-pigs By Amira Hass Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 139 Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 18:50:57 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.217 X-Trace: news3.atl 982802941 208.63.206.217 (Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:49:01 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2001 19:49:01 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173746 soc.culture.israel:326429 soc.culture.palestine:112399 soc.culture.usa:600175 soc.culture.canada:258161 soc.culture.british:549939 Ha'aretz February 21, 2001 The revolt of the guinea-pigs By Amira Hass Members of Israel's security and intelligence establishments (and their representatives in the political system) are now announcing the imminent collapse of the Palestinian Authority (PA).One arm of the security establishment orders concrete blocks placed at entrances to Palestinian villages, preventing the residents from reaching their fields or their jobs in the cities, while another sheds crocodile tears over the population's lost income. One order prevents PA officials from reaching their offices in the various cities, while a press briefing explains to reporters that the PA is not functioning. With one statement the political establishment prevents the supply of fuel and gas to the Gaza Strip and blocks the transfer of tax and tariff income to the PA, while another notes the growing gap between the Palestinian public and the PA, which cannot supply that public with decent services. This feigned innocence fits in well with the victorious, Israeli, representation of the events: Arafat initiated the Al Aqsa Intifada in breach of agreements made with him - or at the very least, he did not stop it. Arafat is not putting the Intifada down, and therefore Israel's policy of collective punishment and acts of repression - military, financial and logistic - are a legitimate defense of the attacked side: Israel. According to this representation of reality, everything started with the first Palestinian stone, the first Palestinian bullet and the road-side bomb on the Netzarim-Karni road. There is probably little chance of convincing the Israeli public today that there is a link between that stone, bullet and bomb and the fact that the Oslo years did not offer the Palestinian public a future of independence, nor a hope for social well-being. Those who in recent years gladly adopted the victorious, Israeli, version of reality - alleging that the occupation is over because the PA got administrative control and policing powers over most of the Palestinian population in isolated enclaves - cannot be and are not interested in recognizing the occupied population's right to rebel. Those who yield to the victim-mindset that is daily fed by Israeli occupation mechanisms; those who count their own dead and wounded while remaining indifferent to the huge number of dead and wounded on the other side, are making no attempt to understand the meaning of the experiment that began in the last decade of the 20th century. The Oslo lab experiment must be judged, not on the basis of the promises and declarations of its architects, but on the basis of the Israeli policy implemented on the ground. In short, the experiment tried to examine the possibility of continuing the rule over the Palestinians by shutting them into autonomous bordered-off areas, and taking over as much as possible of their water and land resources. An integral part of this experiment was cultivating excess privileges for the Palestinian leadership - giving it the stamp of approval and Western legitimacy as substitutes for recognizing United Nations resolutions regarding the solution for the conflict. Regardless of the personal feelings and past record of each member of this over-privileged leadership - long out of touch with its own people - it served at one and the same time as both one of the guinea pigs and one of the junior partners running the experiment. The movement restrictions, the freeze on transferring funds to the PA and the destruction of the PA's economy are not an invention of recent months. They were a fundamental ingredient of the Oslo experiment, and of Madrid before it: On the one hand, international conferences allocating huge sums to the Palestinian Authority to compensate for the infrastructure destruction caused by the Israeli occupation since 1967; and on the other hand, a sealing of the borders - sending half the population below the poverty line and causing losses totaling more than the donations. This happened in March 1993, in the summer of 1995, and in the winter of 1996. The collective punishment policy at the time was not only a conditioned reflex of a veteran and experienced occupation mechanism, but also a tactic intended to ensure the taming of the Palestinian leadership into accepting the rules laid down by the victorious side: We will draw your people's borders of independence; you will persecute anyone who opposes this; you will become rich, thanks to the special freedom of movement we will grant only you; and we will all call this a peace process. If you break these rules, we have the power to jeopardize your public position, weaken your rule, and cut your sources of income. The experiment is not over yet: It has neither been deemed a success nor declared a failure. CIA-favorite Jibril Rajoub's talks this week in Washington indicate how important the success of the experiment is to the United States - not only to Israel - and how crucial it is to some in the Palestinian leadership. The main problem, overlooked by the scientists, is that the human guinea pigs are rebelling against the experiment From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:36 EST 2001 Article: 258227 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news.stealth.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A95A488.37179096@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: LAW Weekly Palestine News Roundup 15-21 February 2001 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 432 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 17:45:12 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.149.55 X-Trace: news2.atl 982885376 66.20.149.55 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:42:56 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 18:42:56 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173874 soc.culture.israel:326637 soc.culture.usa:600511 soc.culture.canada:258227 soc.culture.british:550202 And a sordid tale of murder and death it is too. I would call the Israelis murdering assassins, but they are proud of this label. If one is the scum of the earth, it is hard to shame him. RLA LAW Weekly Palestine News Roundup 15-21 February 2001 During the third week of February, Israeli forces continued to shoot at, beat and abuse unarmed Palestinian civilians, shell Palestinian residential areas, hold Palestinian towns and villages under siege and pursue their policy of extra-judicial execution. In the past week, Israeli soldiers and police reportedly caused the death of eight Palestinians; four through shelling Palestinian towns, one by assassination, two during a car chase by the Israeli police, and one who was prevented from crossing an Israeli checkpoint. First: Violating the right to life and security of person 1. Deaths * 29 year-old Isam Al Taweel, a father of 3 from Hebron, died on February 16 after being shot in the chest. According to eyewitness statements to LAW, Isam was on the way to his home in Al Karantina opposite the Jewish Avraham Avino enclave in Hebron when he got caught in the Israeli shelling of Al Karantina. He bled for some time before anyone could reach him. According to LAW’s information, five other Palestinians were wounded in the attack; Malaka Al Bakeri (42) was hit by shrapnel in the back, and Nawal and Yacoub Marar were hit by shrapnel in their home. * Shakir Al Manasra, 23, from Bani Na’eem, Hebron, also died on Friday 16 February, when Israeli forces bombed the cow farm where he worked. Eyewitness Jalal Faraj, 26, told LAW that he and three of his colleagues were sitting in a room in the farm at 8:30pm when Israeli forces started bombing. Ahmad Faraj Allah, 33, who was shot in the stomach during the attack, died on Sunday 18 February. Ahmad had a brother named Faraj who was killed in the first Intifada, and Ahmad had married his dead brother’s wife. Also injured in the attack was Manasra’s brother Yusif Mawas, 30, who was shot in the right shoulder and left arm. * Usama Al Kurbi, 18, from Beit Sahour, was killed on Thursday 20 February when the rood of his house caved in on him due to shelling by the Israeli army. According to LAW’s documentation, many parts of Beit Sahour such as Al Iraq quarter, the environs of the Saint Nicholas cathedral and the Orthodox Centre were shelled by Israeli artillery and automatic gunfire from Gilo settlement. Usama was buried under the wreckage for several hours before his family and fire-fighters could pull him out. * 76 year-old Abdul Rahman Jum’a from Beit Leid in Tulkarem died when Israeli soldiers delayed the car taking him to hospital for one hour. Eyewitness Muhanad Jum’a told LAW: “At 10am on Friday, we took Jum’a in a car to hospital in Tulkarem after he felt a severe chest pain. When we arrived at the checkpoint at the entrance of Tulkarem, we told the Israeli soldiers there that we had with us a very ill man who needed to be hospitalised. They refused to let us pass, but held us at the checkpoint for an hour. Finally, when we arrived at the hospital an hour and a half later, the doctor told us that Jum’a had passed away half an hour ago. The road to the hospital normally takes half an hour.” * Mohammad Al Hawamda, 25, from Al Samou’a, Hebron, and Omar Abu Tarash, 20, >from Al Kiya in Bir Al Sabia’a, died when Israeli police chased Al Hawamda’s car, which hit that of Abu Tarash. Ismail Al Hawamda, 25, was injured in the incident. Al Hawamda’a was on his way home after a working day in Bir Al Sabia’a (within the borders of Israel). * Mahmoud Al Madani, 25, from Balata refugee camp, was reportedly assassinated in an ambush by Israeli Special Forces on February 19. He was shot and killed as he left the camp’s mosque accompanied by his 21 year-old brother at 2:30 pm. LAW Society’s documentation indicates that Mahmoud and his brother Nur Al Deen left Fatouh Mosque in Balata. As they passed the south-eastern entrance to the camp near Jerusalem Road on their way to their grocery store, Mahmoud was shot twice in the chest, once in the waist, and once in the left shoulder. He was taken to Rafidia hospital in Nablus, where he was pronounced dead at 6:30 pm. Mahmoud’s brother, Nur Al Deen, stated to LAW that the shots had been fired from very close range. According to the initial medical report, the distance was estimated at 15 metres. Nur Al Deen added that the bullets had exploded inside his brother. According to LAW’s investigation, immediately after Mahmoud had been shot soldiers at the nearby Israeli military outpost on Mount Jirzeem opened fire, seemingly to cover up the work of the Special Forces and aid their retreat from the area. Later that evening, the official Israeli media declared, “A Special Forces unit south of Nablus today opened fire at a Palestinian man, wanted by the security services for being involved in acts of aggression such as explosions inside Israel, and critically wounded him.” 2. Injuries 84 Palestinians were injured when Israeli forces attacked Palestinian protesters in Hebron, Al Bireh and Deir Nitham and in the shelling of Al Bireh. 6 of the wounded were hit with live ammunition, 33 with steel bullets and 14 with shrapnel. The rest suffered teargas inhalation. The following Palestinians protesters were wounded on 16 February when Israeli forces broke into the village of Deir Nitham, west of Ramallah: 1. Tayseer Al Araj (16), hit by a steel bullet in the right arm 2. Ahmad Salih (12), hit by a steel bullet in the left arm 3. Mohammad Mazhar (14), hit by a steel bullet in the right arm 4. Abdullah Salih (17), hit by a steel bullet in the genitalia 5. Tariq Ameer (14), hit by a steel bullet in the chest 6. Hassan Eed (18), hit by a steel bullet in the spine 7. Fadel Ziyad (26), hit by a steel bullet in the left foot 8. Shahir Mas’ad (16), hit by a steel bullet in the right shoulder 9. Fadi Mas’ad (19), hit by a steel bullet in the left foot Also on 16 February, Israeli forces, equipped with tanks and bulldozers, stormed into Al Salam quarter south of Rafah at 3am and demolished seven homes. They also knocked down some greenhouses as well as several chicken farms. They invaded the home of Nasser Al Sha’er, held his family hostage and used them as a human shield until 8pm. During that time they used Al Sha ’er’s house as a military outpost from which they wounded the following people: 1. Mousa Abu Mu’amar (14), hit by shrapnel in the right leg 2. Hassan Al Satri (14), hit by shrapnel in the head 3. Muhyi Mansour (27), hit by shrapnel in the head 4. Yusra Awida (31), shot in the left foot 5. Mohammad Abu Kuus (10) shot in the left foot In a separate incident, Israeli soldiers wounded the following Palestinians near Netsarim junction: 1. Abdul Rahman Al Hajar (15), shot in the left leg 2. Hazim Said (15), shot and slightly wounded in the head 3. Nasser Al Nabaheen (16), shot and slightly wounded in the head 4. Hassan Ghazal (17), hit by a steel bullet in the head 5. Mohammad Al Abed (15), shot in the stomach 6. Khaled Akil (20), shot in the stomach 7. Ghanam Bader (12), shot in the left thigh At 11:30 am, also on 16 February, 16 year-old Mohammad Abu Hamida from Khan Younis was cycling on the main road to Rafah when a military jeep hit him and left him bleeding on the road. The boy suffered a broken arm and bruising all over his body. In Hebron, on the same day, Israeli forces stationed at Al Samou’a entrance shot 25 year-old Mohammad Abu Jadayil in the chest. Medical staff at Al Ahli hospital stated that doctors there had performed surgery on Mohammad, removing his left kidney and spleen. His spinal cord was also severely damaged, and he is currently in intensive care. Yusif Abu Rabee’a, 21, from Al Fawar refugee camp, was severely beaten by Israeli soldiers. 11 year-old Munthir Abu Warda from the same refugee camp was hit in the head by a steel bullet, and 16 year-old Ameena Al Khateeb was hit by a rock during a settler attack on Beit Enun. At 4 pm on Sunday 18 February, Israeli forces shooting Palestinians in Al Salam quarter wounded the following: 1. Mahdi Omar, 15, shot in the right thigh 2. Ahmad Abu Taha, 14, shot in the back (he is now semi-paralysed) 3. Asam’a Kishta, 18, was hit in the shoulder by shrapnel 4. Mohammad Matar, 14, was hit in the back by shrapnel At 3 pm the following day (19 February), Israeli forces in the same location wounded the following Palestinians: 1. Mahmoud Zu’rub, 21, shot in the pelvis 2. Buthaina Madi, 25, shot in the right foot On the same day the following were wounded in Hebron’s H2 area: 1. Khaled Al Masri, 6, suffered teargas inhalation 2. Noah Al Shaludi, 35, suffered bruises and fractures 3. Ni’ma Muhsen, 47, suffered bruises and scratches 4. Sumaya Abu Dawood, 11, suffered bruises and scratches On Tuesday 20 February, 16 year-old Ra’ida Al Atrash was admitted to Alia hospital. Ra’ida told LAW, “At 7:30am, I was standing by the cemetery wall opposite the Avraham Avino Jewish enclave in Hebron with another three girls >from my school - Al Yacobiya Basic School. We were on our way to school and there were soldiers on the street. Suddenly I felt something hit me in my right arm and left leg. I was taken to a nearby UNRWA clinic, and after some x-rays I was told I had been hit by rubber-coated steel bullets. Israeli forces stationed west of Rafah wounded the following Palestinians on the same day: 1. Ahmad Ali, 13, was shot in the right arm 2. Ali Abu Hussein, 15, was shot in the right thigh 3. Mahmoud Abu Ataya, 9, broke his leg as he ran away from the shooting At Netsarim junction on the same day, Yusif Amar (35) from Al Braij refugee camp was shot in the right foot and Mohammad Younis (14) from Al Nsirat refugee camp was shot in the right thigh. Second: Shelling In the afternoon of Friday 16 February, Israeli forces shelled Al Balo’a area north of Al Bireh. In Nablus, they shelled a transmission station and destroyed it as well as some nearby water tanks. On Saturday 17 February, Israeli forces stationed at the Ramat Yashai enclave in Hebron bombed Bab Al Zawyi, Al Shalala Street, and Al Sheikh quarter in downtown Hebron. Two bombs exploded in Bab Al Zawyi, wounding: 1. Siham Jaradat, 40, hit by shrapnel in the head 2. Nadir Shaheen, 36, hit by shrapnel in the head 3. Jihad Ghaith, 35, hit by shrapnel in the right foot 4. Khaled Arafa, 15, hit by shrapnel in the face 5. Isa Tanina, 40, hit by shrapnel in the right knee 6. Wadee’a Al Hadad, 48, hit by shrapnel in the right shoulder 7. Jihad Iskafi, 13, hit by shrapnel in the right shoulder 8. Fahid Al Natshi, 24, hit by shrapnel in the right leg and the face 9. Zeidan Iskafi,45, hit by shrapnel in the head and the back 10. Nidal Al Haymuni, 24, hit by shrapnel in the right leg 11. Zeidan Iskafi, 20, hit by shrapnel in the head Israeli forces stationed at the Tshiva’a military outpost near Tayaseer, Jenin, bombarded residential houses in the village, damaging several homes as well as electricity and telephone cables. The shelling also damaged the doors and windows of Tayaseer School. Sbaih Sbaih (21) was wounded by shrapnel in the shoulder. On Sunday 18 February, Israeli shelling of Khan Younis refugee camp wounded 8 year-old Nada Abu Abida, who was hit by shrapnel in different parts of the body, and 10 year-old Suha Abu Akir, who was hit by shrapnel in the neck. Faik Abu Akir’s store and the UNRWA building in the camp received damage to their windows and doors. The following were wounded in the shelling that evening: 1. Mohammad Abu Azam, 8, hit by shrapnel in the eye 2. Khalid Shath, 27, shot in the right arm 3. Jamal Al Shareef, 40, hit by shrapnel in the foot 4. Ahmad Sahloul,16, hit by shrapnel in the waist 5. Ghasan Al Saibi,18, hit by shrapnel in the right shoulder 6. Ala Safad,12, hit by shrapnel in the face On 19 February 22 Israeli forces shelled Al Bireh, directly hitting: 1. The home of Basil Al Shawa, destroying the balcony and sewage network as well as burning the furniture 2. The National School for the Blind, destroying a bedroom and some windows and terrorising the pupils 3. The offices of Beit Al Shi’ir Al Falastini, destroying the façade, the external doors and the entrance On the same day, Israeli forces shelled Maryland Theme Park in Tulkarem from Beit Haifar, injuring Ys Brandt Sandu from Holland and Martin Vwrgn from South Africa. Vwrgn told LAW, “Yesterday, 19 February, the workers of Maryland had a break between 7 and 8pm. During that time, we heard gunshots coming from the left of Maryland. The shooting went on for at least an hour. Two or three bullets came towards us, so we started to run for safety. I realised that myself and a friend had been wounded. There was no shots at that moment; we just felt a burning feeling. My friend fell to the ground and I saw blood coming from his leg; then I realised that I was also bleeding. Some people found more gold-coloured bullets. Both of us had been hit by bullets from the left. We were taken straight to hospital for treatment. Everything happened so fast that we had no idea who was shooting at us. If the bullets had been shot a little higher the wounds would probably be much worse. We are both ok now but we will remember this for the rest of our lives.” The homes of the following peoples were hit during the shelling of Beit Jala: 1. Zu’rub (one room was burnt) 2. Ilyas Matar (partial damage and one room was burnt) 3. Isa Ghnaim (furniture and windows destroyed) 4. Ilyas Nazal (furniture and windows destroyed) 5. Mohammad Shananir (furniture and windows destroyed) 6. Johnny Sam’an (furniture and windows destroyed) 7. Ilyas Khouri furniture and windows destroyed) 8. George Nazal (furniture and windows destroyed) 9. Sameer Kantar (furniture and windows destroyed) 10. Khalid Shaker (furniture and windows destroyed)) 11. Nasar Khamees (furniture and windows destroyed) 12. Frida Abu Eed (furniture and windows destroyed) On the same day, houses were also shelled in Al Khader village, damaging the homes of Sa’id and Mohammad Salah. On Tuesday February 20, Israeli forces shelled Beit Sahour and Bethlehem >from Gilo settlement, killing Ibrahim Usama Al Kurbi. Third: Siege and curfew The curfew of the occupied part of Hebron continues, with 40,000 Palestinians being held under curfew for two consecutive weeks, including 12,000 students unable to go to school. The Israeli policy of siege and collective punishment has deprived Palestinians from travelling from one place to another and Muslim pilgrims >from travelling to Mecca. LAW Society reiterates the following: 1. Israeli forces are committing increased crimes and using the Israeli war arsenal against unarmed Palestinian civilians. 2. They continue to shell Palestinian residential areas. 3. They continue to use collective punishment against Palestinians and deprive them of their basic human rights. 4. Israeli forces use settlements as bases from which to bomb Palestinian areas LAW demands: 1. The Israeli government to immediately stop its crimes and collective punishment against Palestinians. 2. An international investigation committee to be set up, working according to UN Resolution 1322. 3. The Contracting Parties to the 4th Geneva Convention to ensure Israel’s compliance with the Convention. 4. Palestinians to be placed under international protection. 5. The international community to put an end to these crimes and the Israeli occupation. LAW – The Palestinian Society for the Protection of Human Rights and the Environment is a non-governmental organisation dedicated to preserving human rights through legal advocacy. LAW is affiliate to the International Commission of Jurists (ICJ), Fédération Internationale des Ligues de Droits de l’Homme (FIDH), World Organisation Against Torture (OMCT) and Member of the Euro- Mediterranean Human Rights Network From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:36 EST 2001 Article: 258228 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A95BC69.211827E1@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: The Israeli Shelling: Illegal and Morally Reprehensible AlHaq Case Study Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 100 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:27:05 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.169 X-Trace: news2.atl 982891528 208.63.207.169 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:25:28 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:25:28 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173881 soc.culture.israel:326646 soc.culture.usa:600530 soc.culture.canada:258228 soc.culture.british:550219 For Immediate Release Al-Haq Case Study 21 February 2001 The Israeli Shelling: Illegal and Morally Reprehensible Since the eruption of the Palestinian Intifada Israeli forces have shelled many civilian Palestinian areas on a nightly basis killing and injuring numerous Palestinians and destroying their property. Indiscriminately fired Israeli shells make no distinction between civilian homes and facilities and legitimate military targets. Over the last five months al-Haq has been carefully following and documenting these developments. After intensive bombing campaigns during the first few months of the Intifada, Israeli forces, under intense international pressure, began to limit their use of tanks and helicopters in strikes against Palestinian targets during January. Unfortunately this reprieve proved to be only temporary. During the last several weeks, Israeli missiles have once again begun to rain down on Palestinian civilian areas. What follows is a case study of one of these attacks based on information gathered by al-Haq’s fieldworkers. The National School for Blind Girls in al-Bireh came under fire from Israeli tanks and heavy weaponry on 20 February 2001. The school was shelled for more than three hours causing extensive damage to the building. However, of greater significance is the psychological impact that the shelling had on the disabled children in the school. "The crime is doubled when it is committed against disabled children who can hear the sound of the explosions, but can not see what is happening around them. We do not know what to do now in order to protect the children " said the school’s headmaster Mr. Hayyan al-Idrisi. The National School for Blind Girls was established in 1978 under the initiative of the Friends of the Blind Association in Palestine with the objective of providing an education for children whose parents cannot afford the expense of educating their disabled child. The school works hard to integrate the students into the wider Palestinian society in an attempt to provide them with every opportunity given to student without disabilities. It currently serves 75 blind female students ages 4-18 and is primarily dependent upon charitable donations given by local community members. The school provides educational, artistic, and counseling services for its students. It doubles as a home for many of the students who board there. Teachers treat students with motherly affection and the students feel safe while they are at the school. Both students and their teachers believed that the school was a safe location in which the students could receive a good education. Unfortunately, the Israeli shelling changed this belief causing many students and staff to feel worried and on edge. Ten-year-old Isra’ Ziedan told of the shelling as follows, "I was awakened by the sounds of shelling. I began crying and woke up the rest of the children to escape. None of the children could move out of fear. Our teacher came and asked us to move to the staircase, as it is the safest place in the building. All of the students rushed to the staircase and, as they cannot see, many fell down out of panic and fear. After I left my room I started looking for my brother who attends the school with me, but I could not find him. Our teacher then asked us to pray for the shelling to stop and to ask God to protect us. Ulfat, who is only 4, would not stop crying until our teacher Suhier came and hugged her" Ulfat said that at first she tried to calm down other children, but being only a child herself she was also scared of the shelling and needed someone to comfort her. After a short time she said that she could not contain her fear and began to cry. Her teacher said that she cried throughout the rest of the Shelling, which lasted for three hours. The Israeli authorities often talk about "purity of arms", but then defile this “purity” when they use force indiscriminately against civilian targets, including innocent disabled children. In so doing the Israeli forces have violated international treaties and norms related to the rights of children, and all commonly held ethical standards. For years al-Haq has repeatedly warned the international community about the consequences of Israel’s continuous violations of International Humanitarian Law and Palestinian civilians’ human rights. We would now like to express deep concern regarding these most recent developments and Israel’s continued grave violations in the Occupied Territories. Local and international human rights organizations have repeatedly called upon the United Nations Security Council to provide a protection force for the Palestinian people. Unfortunately their requests have fallen upon deaf ears and no action has been taken. In order to stop the Israeli authorities from continuing their illegal campaign, which has instilled terror in the local Palestinian population, al-Haq now calls upon the international community to place pressure upon the members of the Security Council to take immediate action. To wait can only serve to further Israel’s goal of terrorizing the Palestinian people and will lead to an increased number of human rights violations. The Palestinian people both deserve and require the assistance and protection of the international community. From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:36 EST 2001 Article: 258230 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A95BCEB.5DD383BC@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa Subject: England asks Israel to free British citizen Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 41 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 19:29:15 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.169 X-Trace: news2.atl 982891657 208.63.207.169 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:27:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:27:37 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173882 soc.culture.british:550220 soc.culture.canada:258230 soc.culture.usa:600531 England asks Israel to free British citizen Occupied Jerusalem: 22 February, 2001 (IAP News) - The British Foreign Office has urged the Zionist regime to immediately release a British citizen detained in the Jewish state on suspicion of affiliation with the Lebanese Hizbullah Islamic movement, Israeli officials said Thursday. Gerard Shuman, who is also known as Jihad Shuman, arrived in Palestine on 31 December as a tourist, and was arrested by Israeli Shin Bet agents on 6 January on suspicion that he was planning to carry out attacks against Israeli targets. Shuman, a British citizen of Lebanese descent, denied all the charges against him and complained that he was badly tortured by his Israeli interrogators, a fact confirmed by a British doctor who has examined him on the embassy's behalf. "If they have evidence against him, they should put him on trial. If not, they should release him," Shuman's lawyer, Lea Tsemel, said. On Wednesday, the outgoing Israeli Prime Minister, who also assumes the defense portfolio, signed a six-month administrative detention order against Shuman. Administrative detention, or open-ended incarceration with charge or trial, is commonly used against Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The Israeli media made hyperbolic statements following Shuman's arrest six weeks ago, claiming, among other things, that he was a "senior Hizbullah terrorist sent to Israel to carry out terrorist attacks against Israeli targets." From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:37 EST 2001 Article: 258234 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A95C986.E2020609@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa Subject: Re: England asks Israel to free British citizen References: <3A95BCEB.5DD383BC@bellsouth.net> <3A95C593.71AD4057@ij.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 53 Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 20:23:02 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.169 X-Trace: news2.atl 982894883 208.63.207.169 (Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:21:23 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2001 21:21:23 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173898 soc.culture.british:550229 soc.culture.canada:258234 soc.culture.usa:600550 Matt Giwer wrote: > Roger Alexander wrote: > > > > England asks Israel to free British citizen > > > > Occupied Jerusalem: 22 February, 2001 (IAP News) - The British Foreign > > Office has urged the Zionist regime to immediately release a British > > citizen detained in the Jewish state on suspicion of affiliation with > > the > > Lebanese Hizbullah Islamic movement, Israeli officials said Thursday. > > > > Gerard Shuman, who is also known as Jihad Shuman, arrived in Palestine > > on > > 31 December as a tourist, and was arrested by Israeli Shin Bet agents on > > 6 > > January on suspicion that he was planning to carry out attacks against > > Israeli targets. > > > > Shuman, a British citizen of Lebanese descent, denied all the charges > > against him and complained that he was badly tortured by his Israeli > > interrogators, a fact confirmed by a British doctor who has examined him > > on > > the embassy's behalf. > > > > "If they have evidence against him, they should put him on trial. If > > not, > > they should release him," Shuman's lawyer, Lea Tsemel, said. > > > On Wednesday, the outgoing Israeli Prime Minister, who also assumes the > > defense portfolio, signed a six-month administrative detention order > > against Shuman. > > > Administrative detention, or open-ended incarceration with charge or > > trial, > > is commonly used against Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. > > > The Israeli media made hyperbolic statements following Shuman's arrest > > six > > weeks ago, claiming, among other things, that he was a "senior Hizbullah > > terrorist sent to Israel to carry out terrorist attacks against Israeli > > targets." > > Did you ever get the impression Israel believes Britain has foregiven > and forgotten the Irgun and Stern Gang? I don't know about that. I do think that Britain under Blair is like a little boy tagging along after his big brother, the US. It is sickening. RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:37 EST 2001 Article: 258263 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9680DA.12BEBE76@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada Subject: Media manipulators: How north London web-designer began campaign that deluged Guardian with emails Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 118 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 09:25:14 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.101 X-Trace: news1.atl 982941816 208.63.207.101 (Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:23:36 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 10:23:36 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173946 soc.culture.british:550307 soc.culture.israel:326764 soc.culture.usa:600747 soc.culture.canada:258263 Media manipulators: How a north London web-designer began a campaign that deluged the Guardian with emails David Leigh Thursday February 22, 2001 The Guardian Why would the Guardian provide moral and medical justification for the multiple murder of innocent Israeli civilians? It's a pretty bizarre question, but we found ourselves being asked it over and over again this week. Emails clicked in to the letters page by the hundred, all making the same weirdly alliterative points. This followed publication of a Guardian article trying to understand the motivations of the Palestinian bus driver who ploughed into a queue this month, killing eight Israelis. The mysteriously similar emails - from all over the world - started coming in, too, to our foreign editor; to our website; and to the personal email address of our Middle East correspondent, Suzanne Goldenberg. They were inconvenient, and also sometimes a bit scary in their violent tone - "The bloody Guardian... Have you killed a Jew today?... Are you anti-Jewish?... Unrelenting Guardian anti-Israel bias... Why would the Guardian provide moral and medical justification etc...?' This global blitzing was tending to crowd out genuine expressions of opinion from our readers. Our suspicions aroused, we tried to discover what was going on. It wasn't straightforward. But eventually we discovered the trick. A website calling itself HonestReporting.com was set up in London last autumn. It has recruited 12,000 subscribers to its database, it claims, all dedicated to fighting anti-Israel "bias" in the media. The aim was to recruit a total of 25,000. Every time someone writes something they don't like, details of the offending article are circulated round the world, together with a handy form of protesting words, ready to be lightly embroidered and electronically dispatched at the push of a button. "This is what you should do," they tell their members "Forward it on to the news company concerned at the email address provided. If you can, please change the subject of the email to 'complaint' or something similar." Their first success, HonestReporting boasted, was with the London Evening Standard. Its columnist Brian Sewell wrote last autumn calling on Israel to "become a multicultural society" and cease exploiting the Holocaust to justify unacceptable behaviour. "The next day, [we] sent out a letter to subscribers." Standard articles recorded "a wave of complaints... hundreds of Jewish readers have written in". Then "after more pressure" there followed a pro- Israel article by Simon Sebag-Montefiore. "This is an example of what we can do." And now it was the Guardian's turn to get the email treatment. A long electronic bulletin went out headed: "The Guardian: a mainstream British newspaper consistently blames Israel for everything." It complained that a Steve Bell cartoon showing Sharon's bloody handprints on the Wailing Wall "encroaches on brash anti-semitism". It complained that a Muslim, Faisal Bodi, had written questioning Israel's right to statehood; and complained that the Guardian had said Sharon had killed the peace process. "No blame is assigned to Arafat." And there too, was our old alliterative friend: "Why would the Guardian provide moral and medical justification...?" Who was behind this internet harassment? The website gave no address. It had been registered last October under a London name and phone number that seemed not to exist. Eventually, it transpired that it had been set up by a 27-year-old Jewish web-designer from north London called Jonathan. "Don't give my full name," he asked. "Someone was killed in Stamford Hill [the Jewish district] the other day." He and his friends came up with the idea by themselves: "We were just brainstorming." But the operation was now being funded and run from the US by an organisation concerned with media fairness, Media Watch International. And who were they? "We're pretty new," says their director, Sharon Tzur, speaking from Manhattan. "It's a group of concerned Jewish business people in New York." Yet a bit more inquiry reveals that this is not quite the whole story either. For this week's bulletin denouncing the Guardian was in fact composed in Israel by a man named Shraga Simmons. And when he is not working for HonestReporting, Mr Simmons is to be found employed at another organisation altogether - Aish HaTora. This is an international group promoting orthodox Judaism. "I do some work for Aish," Mr Simmons says, from Israel. And Jonathan, the web- designer who started it all in London, also concedes: "I go to the odd class at Aish." Aish verge on the colourful in their antics. Founded by Rabbi Noah Weinberg, who complains that "20,000 kids a year" are being lost to Judaism by marrying out, Aish invented speed-dating - eight-minute sessions in cafes to help New Yorkers find compatible Jewish partners. They're widely regarded as rightwing extremists. And they're certainly not people entitled to harass the media into what they would call "objectivity ========================================== We have at least one similar group in the US whose object is to deluge the Congress with e-mails favorable to ISrael. They are called VIPAC, and as best I can tell, are the handiwork of two New York guys. Like this spam, they have canned letters which one can sign and send on. At one time they went out about once a week, but lately they have heated up to 2 or 3. RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:37 EST 2001 Article: 258294 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9725DC.113C1E51@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.jordan,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada Subject: The Nation Special Report : Fields of Thorns Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 389 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:09:17 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.101 X-Trace: news1.atl 982984048 208.63.207.101 (Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:07:28 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:07:28 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173995 soc.culture.palestine:112547 soc.culture.jordan:24180 soc.culture.lebanon:144172 soc.culture.usa:600927 soc.culture.canada:258294 The Nation March 12, 2001 ========================================================================== Special Report Fields of Thorns by Mouin Rabbani The Palestinian uprising in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, which in late September 2000 began as a wave of popular protest against Ariel Sharon's belligerent incursion into Jerusalem's sacred Haram al-Sharif, has developed into a full-fledged war of attrition against the Israeli occupation, which rather ironically paved the aggressive right-wing leader's path to power. The gradual "Lebanonization" of the occupied territories during the Al-Aqsa Intifada, in which the activities of increasingly effective armed cells have been supplanting civil forms of resistance, poses a challenge to Israel, which, in the context of its stated territorial ambitions and the external constraints upon its conduct, outgoing Prime Minister Ehud Barak was incapable of resolving. For all his bluster about refusing to negotiate under fire, putting an end to Palestinian "violence and terror" and achieving a "peace for generations," Sharon's dilemma is equally intractable. Any government he forms will prove at least as unwilling to withdraw to the June 1967 boundaries as its predecessor, and thereby will insure the continuation of the uprising. If Sharon opts instead to destroy the Palestinian Authority (PA) in an updated version of the regional strategy attempted during the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, he will once again create the conditions for the ascendancy of a more! radical and uncompromising adversary--with the distinction that the Palestinian variant will be based in Hebron, Jerusalem and the Palestinian town of Umm al-Fahm within Israel rather than in Lebanon's Baalbek and Beirut. And in contrast to 1982, open warfare with the Palestinian leadership in 2001 will for Israel entail significant regional (and perhaps international) costs. The above notwithstanding, the prospects for a successful Palestinian guerrilla campaign remain dim. Palestinian efforts are nowhere near as sophisticated as those of Hezbollah in Lebanon, and Israel is prepared to sustain much greater losses in the occupied Palestinian territories than it was in Lebanon. At the same time, the militarization of the uprising is marginalizing the role of Palestinian society and thus squandering the potential contribution of a mobilized population; as the PA and Palestinian civil society are for different reasons gripped by serious paralysis, Israel's punitive sanctions and the PA's haphazard response have stretched Palestinians to the breaking point. As the possibilities for either a permanent Israeli-Palestinian settlement or a resumption of interim arrangements continue to recede, and those of a wider regional conflagration remain on the rise, a prolonged low-intensity conflict propelled by yet unable to rupture the political stalemate, punctuated by occasional bouts of intensified bloodletting, domestic chaos (whether Palestinian or Israeli) and futile diplomacy, remains the most likely scenario. On an almost daily basis, unarmed Palestinian youths trek to the boundaries separating areas under Palestinian and Israeli security control to take on armed Israeli soldiers encased in protective gear and positioned behind barriers or in fortified locations. Unlike the 1987-93 intifada, during which the military was deployed within Palestinian towns and such confrontations could occur almost anywhere at virtually any time, the current clashes generally commence at around noon at fixed points on the outskirts of Palestinian town! s such as the City Inn junction in northern Al-Bira, or along other clear lines of demarcation such as central Hebron or Martyrs' Junction (Netzarim) south of Gaza City. These are not the mass demonstrations of the uprising's early weeks, in which hundreds and often thousands of Palestinian demonstrators launched frontal attacks upon Israeli positions with the intention of overwhelming them and, determined and disorganized in equal measure, suffered dozens of dead and thousands of wounded in the process. Rather, and with increasingly few exceptions, these have become ritualized confrontations. Separated by more or less permanent barricades erected by the Palestinians and left in place by the Israelis, groups of youths typically numbering in the dozens approach smaller concentrations of soldiers to throw stones, bottles and the occasional firebomb. Their purpose is to remind Israel, the world and also their own leaders that Palestinians will continue to resist the occupation until it ends, and the soldiers confront them in order to demonstrate just as clearly that they have no intention of being involuntarily dislodged. Shortly before or after the first stone is thrown, the soldiers begin firing a barrage of tear-gas canisters (most of which are thrown right back) and fairly quickly begin supplementing their toxic ordnance with volleys of rubber bullets and spherical metal bullets (covered in a negligibly thin layer of plastic), which can be lethal if fired--as often they are--directly at the head or upper body from close range. Despite the gross imbalance of power, and with breathtaking courage that numerous observers have termed suicidal, the youths continue advancing, eventually and inevitably crossing a threshold at which point the soldiers begin firing live, high-velocity bullets, which fragment upon impact and are a surgeon's nightmare. On other occasions, and particularly in the Gaza Strip, trigger-happy conscripts eagerly dispense with this intifada protocol and almost immediately resort to live ammunition, aiming to permanently maim and kill rather than temporarily disable. It is dou! btful a single Palestinian shot dead under such circumstances posed a genuine threat to the life of an Israeli soldier. Nevertheless, the Israeli military--which, in contrast to the previous intifada, has done away with the pretense of investigating the conduct of its own soldiers--has in addition to the above pattern responded to such demonstrations with snipers operating at long range (and at times equipped with silencers), as well as rapid automatic gunfire indiscriminate enough to wound journalists and kill ambulance personnel. With increasing regularity, the ritual is brought to a conclusion by a barrage of 500-millimeter or 800-millimeter bullets (the casing of the latter easily accommodates a human thumb), or several tank shells directed at nearby buildings. Sometimes these are fired without provocation; on other occasions they are in response to Palestinian gunmen who feel or are compelled to intervene when the situation gets particularly gruesome. In contrast to a number of incidents during the uprising's early phases, the gunmen no longer fire from within the crowd. As night falls, and increasingly during the day as well, it is these armed cadres who are defining the nature of Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation. Their cells include Palestinian security personnel, Fatah activists (who are often one and the same) and almost certainly members of the Islamist and secular opposition as well (notably Islamic Jihad), and they operate under previously unknown names such as the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade (kata'ib shuhada' al-aqsa) and Forces of Badr (quwwat badr). Their weapon of choice is the sniper's bullet and roadside bomb, and more recently the occasional mortar round and antitank missile. Their preferred tactic is hit and run, and their proclaimed strategy of transforming Israel's most sensitive assets in the occupied territories into its greatest liabilities is as simple as it can be effective. In this respect the network of settler roads, largely constructed since the Oslo agreement to connect Jewish settlements to Israel (and each other) in a manner that circumvents Palestinian towns and villages, is a case in point. Built on the principle of apartheid (the infamous Dutch/Afrikaans word, meaning "separateness," is equivalent to the "separation" that Barak and other Israeli officials frequently recommend as a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict), in order both to consolidate the Israeli presence within the West Bank and Gaza Strip and to provide the settlers who use them with a sense of security, these have to the horror of their planners become the most dangerous roads in the Middle East. Because they are the only ones settlers use, and are in many cases used only by settlers and the military, any vehicle traversing them is a potential target. Isolated settlements--such as those in the Gaza Strip and colonies that, like Gilo on the edge of Beit Jala and Psagot in al-Bira, abut the communities on whose lands they were established--have on the basis of the above principle been exposed as equally vulnerable. To the obvious satisfaction of the uprising's armed activists, the total settler population, which increased by approximately 50 percent in the seven years after the Oslo agreement was signed, has as a result of their attacks experienced (with the possible exception of 1988) its first net reduction since 1967. Additionally, numerous Israeli and foreign press reports have documented the pervasive fear and sense of imprisonment felt by those who remain, and many appear eager to leave if their government will provide them alternative housing and/or compensation. (The irony that the settlements were established by Israel for the explicit purpose of encircling and suffocating the Palestinians, and that the military prov! ided the settlers with guns and green lights to terrorize their neighbors, is entirely lost upon the majority of such correspondents.) While the Al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigade and most similar groups are known to the PA and are believed to enjoy operational support from senior security officials (which is unlikely to be provided clandestinely and through which the leadership would seek to retain a measure of influence over their activities), these are not PA units established to pursue an official policy under the cloak of plausible deniability. Rather, they represent an autonomous and at times independent force within the Palestinian national movement, with an agenda increasingly divergent >from that of the PA. Its backbone consists of the activist, militant wing of the Fatah movement, which espouses its policies and positions both independently and through the proclamations of the National and Islamic Forces (NIF), a coalition of fourteen Palestinian political factions that constitutes the operational command and organizational infrastructure of the uprising. The NIF, which includes the gamut of PLO, secular opposition and Islamist factions save the Fatah-Revolutionary Council of Sabri al-Banna (Abu Nidal), the Fatah-Provisional Command led by Sa'id Maragha (Abu Musa) and the Palestine Communist Party-Provisional Command of Arabi Awad, is not a national political leadership and cannot (yet) be compared to the United National Leadership of the Uprising (UNLU), which led the 1987-93 intifada until it was entirely subsumed by the exiled PLO leadership in Tunis and Damascus. Rather, and by tacit agreement, its role is limited to popular mobilization and the planning and organization of the uprising's calendar (e.g., "Days of Rage"), as well as the conduct of activities such as the consumer boycott of Israeli products, which--constrained by formal commitments--the PA cannot itself undertake. According to the rules of the game, the formulation and implementation of national policy is the exclusive preserve of the PA. In practice this is no longer the case. The NIF and its constituent organizations have been increasingly critical of the PA, particularly with respect to its domestic policies (or rather lack thereof) and its conduct of relations with Israel and the United States. On February 10, for example, at a time when most PA officials were proclaiming the view that the election of Ariel Sharon was an internal Israeli matter, with Yasir Arafat emphasizing the point by calling the victorious candidate to congratulate him and express his desire to resume negotiations after the formation of a new Israeli government, the NIF issued a statement openly vowing to bring about the downfall of the "terrorist criminal" Sharon, like Barak before him. It said the "new phase of confrontation," which it predicted, "requires that all Palestinian, Arab and international forces work to isolate this raging bull by all means." Indeed, the NIF "stresses the need to reinforce the isolation of Sharon," which "! requires the escalation of the intifada and resistance in order to make his aggressive policy a burden upon Israeli society." "Any Palestinian or Arab attempt to market Sharon's spoiled goods," the NIF pointedly warned, "will fall into the trap Sharon seeks to use to destroy Palestinian national unity, eliminate the intifada, and paralyze the Palestinian National Authority." Perhaps more than any other event, the election of Sharon has thrown the differences between the PA and NIF into relief. To the PA, Sharon is above all a challenge to the successful conclusion of the peace process. If it can utilize its regional and international alliances to ensnare this uncompromising rejectionist in permanent-status negotiations on the division of Jerusalem, return of refugees and dismantling of settlements despite his having been elected to cut the Palestinians down to size, it will have vindicated the PA's decision to enter into the Oslo agreements and its performance prior to and since the Al-Aqsa Intifada. Under no circumstances can it settle for less than was discussed during the final round of permanent-settlement negotiations in the Egyptian resort of Taba, and it must establish the understandings reached there as a baseline for further negotiations with Sharon's government. The uprising is therefore an instrument of diplomatic leverage, to help and ! remind the international community to prod Sharon to resume negotiations at the point where they left off, and to shorten his tenure if they don't or he refuses. Keeping alive the prospect of Oslo's resumption and successful conclusion, without which neither Israel nor the international community has much use for the PA, is the red line Arafat has tacitly communicated to the NIF. The comparative absence of organized Palestinian attacks across the Green Line, which cannot be solely attributed to previous Palestinian and current Israeli campaigns against Hamas and Islamic Jihad, suggests the message is generally being understood. To the militants within Fatah and the majority of the NIF, the uprising is an instrument of a very different sort, and Sharon is the opportunity to prove its effectiveness. Through its consistent escalation, the Al-Aqsa Intifada (and attendant Arab support) will, according to this view, force Israel to surrender its vision of a Palestinian protectorate under Israeli hegemony, retained even during Taba's final moments, and thus allow the Palestinians to transcend the entire Oslo framework. In the confident words of Fatah West Bank secretary general Marwan Barghouti, Sharon is Israel's "last bullet" before it surrenders to the realization that it can have "either peace and security or occupation and settlement, but not both." The uprising is thus a war of national liberation in which the only negotiations to be conducted are those that formalize the end of the occupation. If it is, however, exploited as a negotiating tactic and made hostage to political pressures and the demands of the moment, it will inevitably be prematurely aborted and end in failure. Memories of the fate of the 1987-93 intifada are in this respect particularly strong, and are further reinforced by the stark contrast between Israel's consistent disregard of signed agreements with its Palestinian "peace partner" and its generally scrupulous respect for informal understandings with its bitter enemy Hezbollah. The red line for the militants, which has until now been respected by Arafat, is the co! ntinuation of the uprising until the end of the occupation. Thus far, these ultimately contradictory trends have managed to compete in coexistence, and even to complement one another. Barghouti and other Fatah leaders can be bitterly critical of the PA, demand that Arafat root out the corruption in its ranks and collaborators in their midst, and suggest the formation of an "intifada government" based upon the national unity and unity of purpose established at the local level. There has not, however, been an open challenge to the current leadership or its legitimacy, and Fatah has insured the formal loyalty of the NIF to the PA. For its part the PA has not definitively severed security cooperation with Israel, and in fact it reached various understandings with Barak and Clinton to restore calm to the West Bank and Gaza Strip; but the PA has avoided measures that would test Fatah's loyalty or rupture its relations with other NIF factions. Arafat's method appears to be one of ongoing consultations with Fatah and the opposition, combined w! ith a consistent disregard of their positions when planning his next move. Until Sharon's election, both the PA and NIF were on the whole content to see the uprising continue and in the process improve the PA's negotiating position, even if the former felt the activities of the armed units were at times calculated to derail the negotiations, and the latter viewed the PA's conduct in negotiations as endangering the further development of the uprising. The NIF's pride in Barak's defeat notwithstanding, the relative calm in the weeks leading up to the Israeli election were clearly enforced in deference to the PA. In the coming period the PA and NIF will continue to cooperate, for example in seeking the deployment of an international protection force or in cutting short Sharon's tenure by making a mockery of his promises of tranquillity, and they will continue to compete over issues such as security cooperation. But if circumstances develop in which the PA feels compelled to curtail the uprising to insure its own survival, or the NIF considers it necessa! ry to clean house within the PA to preserve its uprising, an open confrontation between the PA and NIF cannot be ruled out. Should such a showdown materialize, it will be the Fatah activists, and particularly those with positions and connections in the security forces, who will determine its outcome. In the meantime, Israel's blockade and bombardment of Palestinian population centers is exacting a terrible social, economic and physical toll. Throughout the West Bank and particularly in the Gaza Strip, a systematic Israeli defoliation campaign has transformed thousands of acres into a moonscape of uprooted olive, palm and orange trees, and increasingly of summarily bulldozed homes as well. The entrances to numerous towns and villages have been rendered impassable, either through the erection of concrete or earthen barricades or by the digging of trenches several feet deep across roads. Such measures, and particularly the various forms of closure (including the repeated dissection of the minuscule Gaza Strip into four separate enclaves), have had a devastating economic impact. According to a recent UN report, the siege is costing the Palestinian economy $8.6 million daily (excluding physical damage, loss of tax income and the cost of caring for more than 10,000 casualties). ! Total losses between September 2000 and February 2001 have amounted to $1.5 billion, equal to a 20 percent decline in GDP. Poverty has increased by 50 percent, to encompass 32 percent of the total population, and unemployment has risen to 38 percent of the work force (Palestinian sources claim significantly higher figures). While reports that PA institutions face imminent collapse are in some cases accurate, security personnel continue to receive their full salaries on time, and predictions of the PA's impending disintegration have an air of politically motivated alarmism about them. Tanks are currently stationed throughout the occupied territories for the first time since their conquest in 1967, and their barrels and those of the heavy machine guns mounted upon them are routinely used against civilian neighborhoods. By mid-February, a pattern appeared to be emerging in which more Palestinian casualties are being inflicted by such shelling than by soldiers confronting demonstrators. In Khan Yunis in Gaza, which along with Rafah and Hebron has experienced some of the most intense bombardments, Israeli forces additionally appear to have used a new form of toxic gas. The systematic human rights violations, which according to a February 21 Human Rights Watch press release include "indiscriminate and excessive [Israeli] fire" into civilian neighborhoods and, as documented by Palestinian, Israeli and international human rights organizations, have also involved the operation of death squads, have reached a level of severity where they can no longer be ignored even by Washington. On the same day that HRW released its condemnation, the State Department announced it was launching an investigation to determine if Israel has violated the US Arms Export Control Act, which regulates the use of American weapons and ammunition. Meanwhile, the UN Human Rights Commission recently completed a fact-finding mission to examine evidence of Israeli "war crimes" in the West Bank and Gaza Strip; it is expected to release its final report in mid-March. At the same time, HRW and other organizations have also condemned Palestinian gunmen for firing at Israeli posit! ions from within Palestinian towns, if pointedly noting that such acts cannot justify the disproportionate Israeli response. On February 14 Khalil Abu Ulba of Gaza's Shaikh Radwan refugee housing project, one of only 16,000 Palestinians (out of some 3 million) with a record considered clean and reliable enough by Israel's intelligence services to retain his permit to enter and work in Israel, rammed the empty passenger bus he was driving into a group of soldiers assembled at a junction south of Tel Aviv. Eight people, including one civilian, were killed in the attack. It was by all accounts an individual action that required neither careful planning nor organizational support. This time around Israel's intelligence community had not failed. Rather, its policies have; Abu Ulba's interrogators have been attempting to determine whether it was the siege and its economic devastation, the pervasive violence and killing, the intense bombardment and gassing of Khan Yunis that same week or the latest aerial assassination of a Palestinian activist (in nearby Jabalya the day before the attack) that pushed one of the last Palestinians it certified as kosher over the edge. As Fatah leader and Palestinian legislator Qadura Faris observed several months ago, if Israel insists on starving the occupied territories it is unlikely that the cost will be borne exclusively by Palestinians, particularly if the PA is unable to meet the people's basic needs. Attacks such as those by Abu Ulba, and eventually others by organizations affiliated with the NIF, are not going to cease because of an intensified closure and heightened repression--quite the contrary. If not the next attack, then the one after that may prove to be the spark that brings Israel's confrontation with the Palestinians, and the pressure that has been building within the Palestinian body politic, to a new and more dangerous crossroads. From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:38 EST 2001 Article: 258300 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A972C5C.EEE58224@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Israel's army launches 'preventative attacks' Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 93 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:37:00 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.101 X-Trace: news2.atl 982985711 208.63.207.101 (Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:35:11 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:35:11 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173998 soc.culture.israel:326824 soc.culture.palestine:112551 soc.culture.usa:600939 soc.culture.canada:258300 soc.culture.british:550503 Israel's army launches 'preventative attacks' Special report: Israel and the Middle East Suzanne Goldenberg in Beit Jala, West Bank Thursday February 22, 2001 The Guardian Palestinians sifted through the charred ruins of their homes yesterday after Israeli tanks prosecuting a deadly new policy of "preventative attacks" destroyed 10 houses, and buried one man alive beneath acrid-smelling rubble in this Christian town on the outskirts of Jerusalem. Two weeks after the election of the hardliner Ariel Sharon, the Israeli army admitted yesterday that its soldiers are now taking a tougher line against the Palestinian uprising, now in its fifth month. Israeli soldiers guarding checkpoints in the Gaza Strip are now allowed to fire warning shots at pedestrians, the local press reported. In Beit Jala in the West Bank, a military spokesman said the army had decided "to hit before being hit". For the people of Beit Jala, the change in the rules of engagement had a devastating effect. Tuesday night was punctuated by the wailing of children, and the explosive roar of tanks shells which pounded the town from Gilo, a Jewish settlement on the opposite ridge. One man was killed, and at least 10 houses suffered direct hits. Some were home to extended families with nearly 20 members. "It was just boom, boom, boom," Hussein Shenaniri said, standing in what was once a kitchen. "I never thought we would get out alive." An army spokesman said the shelling marked the first time in the Palestinian uprising that the military had initiated an attack on Beit Jala. It was, he said, a response to an escalation of the uprising following Mr Sharon's landslide election victory. Mr Sharon's huge win ended the two-month ceasefire imposed on the commanders of Yasser Arafat's Fatah militia by local notables of Beit Jala, who were angry that the gunmen were bringing their people into the line of fire. However, the army admits there was no firing on Tuesday night. Instead, it claims soldiers spotted gunmen who were preparing an attack. "We don't want to be victims, and then wait and react," Lieutenant-Colonel Oliver Rafowicz said. "They were planning to open fire against us, and we identified them and opened fire first. We did not wait until they shot us: we shot them. You can call it a preventative attack." The barrage started at about 8.30pm when the Korabi family was settling in around the television set. The lights went out, and at least 10 tank shells pounded into their first-floor flat, sending the family of 17 scurrying for safety. Osama Korabi, 18, was hit as he tried to run down the front steps, and was buried under chunks of the outer wall, some 40cm thick. When his family regrouped at about midnight, they located him by following the smears of crimson blood on the paving; it took more than an hour to dig him out. Yesterday, his younger brothers were sifting through the charred and acrid-smelling ruins for whatever they could salvage. One plucked out his yellow piggy bank. "We only have the clothes we are wearing," Majdi Korabi, 22, said. Col Rafowicz acknowledged that a Palestinian man had been killed in the attack. "If he is an innocent man, I want to express my deep sorrow," he said. "But if the Palestinians want to continue the violence, then there will be a price to pay." • A British citizen was jailed for six months without trial yesterday on suspicion of plotting attacks by the Lebanese guerrilla organisation, Hizbullah. Jehard Shuman, held since early January, has claimed to have been tortured. Independent doctors said he has suffered injuries consistent with physical mistreatment. A statement from the office of Ehud Barak said yesterday that the Lebanese-born Mr Shuman had been plotting to carry out attacks inside Israel. From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:38 EST 2001 Article: 258302 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A972EBE.87832892@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Israeli cover-up hinders early resolution of refugee question Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 159 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 21:47:10 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.101 X-Trace: news2.atl 982986320 208.63.207.101 (Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:45:20 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:45:20 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:173999 soc.culture.israel:326825 soc.culture.palestine:112552 soc.culture.usa:600943 soc.culture.canada:258302 soc.culture.british:550505 The Scotsman (daily newspaper in Scotland) February 21, 2001 Israeli cover-up hinders early resolution of refugee question Ben Lynfield In Jerusalem WHILE international attention focuses on Israel''s future under Ariel Sharon, the Jewish state is engaged in a cover-up of its past - namely, the expulsion of Palestinians during its 1947-49 War of Independence. Palestinian ghosts from that era surfaced in recent months, but were put back in the bottle by Yossi Beilin, the justice minister. Mr Beilin blocked the release of excised cabinet statements and other documents about fighting in 1948, a time referred to by Arabs as the nakba, or catastrophe. The documents were requested by Benny Morris, a Cambridge-educated historian who teaches at Ben-Gurion University in Beersheba, who wanted them for revisions of his book, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-49, published in 1988. According to Israeli law, classified documents are to be released after 40 years unless they harm state security, foreign relations or the privacy of individuals. In this case, closure of the archival material was reaffirmed out of concern that opening it would harm Israel''s foreign relations, Evyatar Frizel, the state archivist, said. "I can understand the hesitations of Beilin that splashing stories of Israel defence force atrocities would harm the negotiations with the Palestinians," Mr Morris said. "But this must be put against the more general argument that there will be endless negotiations with the Palestinians and Arab states and that this could remain as the [state''s] contention for the next 50 years. It''s a question of freedom of information versus foreign policy expediency." Mr Beilin declined to be interviewed for this article. The material will be kept confidential for at least another year, according to his decision. Among the items Mr Morris sought were expunged minutes of a cabinet meeting on 16 June, 1948, about the war with Arab neighbours, borders and whether to allow Palestinian refugees to return to areas held by Israeli forces. According to the transcript of the meeting, David Ben-Gurion, the prime minister, made clear that there would be no return of the refugees. He was also troubled that Israel had not taken Lydda and Ramle, Arab towns south-east of Tel Aviv. "That two thorns are remaining - Lydda and Ramle - is a serious flaw in our standing right now," Mr Ben-Gurion said. In the archives, five blanked out lines follow that statement and other comments by Mr Ben-Gurion and the foreign minister, Moshe Sharett, have equally ominous deletions. A month later, Israeli forces expelled tens of thousands of Palestinians from Lydda and Ramle in an operation commanded by a young officer named Yitzhak Rabin. The bluntly honest Mr Rabin wrote later in his memoirs that when Mr Ben-Gurion was asked what should be done with the Palestinians, he had ordered, with a wave of his hand, that they be expelled. Mr Rabin termed the expulsion "a harsh and cruel action" and noted that some of his men refused to participate. Were Israeli intentions to expel the civilian population of Lydda and Ramle enunciated by Mr Ben-Gurion a month before the towns were captured? The answer is not entirely academic. Until Mr Sharon''s election victory, Mr Beilin was a key negotiator with the Palestinians, and held discussions with counterpart Nabil Shaath on one of the main bones of contention, the Palestinian refugee issue. The practicalities of how that issue is resolved through a return of refugees, compensation or other means derive in part from which historical narrative is given greater weight. According to the Israeli narrative, the refugees fled of their own volition during a war launched by the Arab side to snuff out the Jewish state. As the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak, declared repeatedly, Israel bears "no moral responsibility" for the refugee problem. In practical terms, Mr Barak was willing to allow the return only of tens of thousands of refugees under the framework of family reunification, ie, with no Israeli culpability. According to the Palestinian narrative, Israel bears direct responsibility for their becoming refugees. The Palestinian side demands that three million refugees in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and elsewhere be given the "right of return", though Palestinian leaders say not everyone would exercise the right. Israeli leaders see this as a blueprint for destroying the Jewish state. The gap promises to become even wider. Mr Sharon has dropped the framework of the 1993 Oslo agreement, which called for negotiations about refugees, and says he will opt instead for a limited non-belligerency pact. That would mean he would not deal with the past at all. Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, called on Israel to release the information. "Allowing the truth to come out and an admission of culpability would go a long way to starting a process of reconciliation," she said. "If you are seeking peace and conciliation you must look at the real truth and come to terms with it." From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:38 EST 2001 Article: 258305 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A973E3B.9064DF30@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Israel continues to torture prisoners Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 124 Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 22:53:15 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.101 X-Trace: news2.atl 982990284 208.63.207.101 (Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:51:24 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2001 23:51:24 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174008 soc.culture.israel:326829 soc.culture.usa:600959 soc.culture.canada:258305 soc.culture.british:550512 Israel continues to torture prisoners Published on February 21, 2001 in Palestine Report at http://www.jmcc.org/media/reportonline. by Charmaine Seitz MUHAMMAD ZAHOUR is almost 16. If he were in the United States, he might be worrying about getting his driver's license. Instead, he sits in an Israeli jail. Muhammad was arrested on November 14 of last year. When Israeli soldiers picked him up in the Husan village market, passersby protested, but the soldiers claimed he had been throwing stones. By Muhammad's own account, the boy was taken to the Gush Etzion military camp near Bethlehem. On the way, he was blindfolded and beaten with his hands tied. When he arrived at an interrogation room, two men in civilian dress beat him again, this time focusing the blows on his head. Muhammad spent 34 days at Gush Etzion camp before being taken to the Hebron area military court - what Palestinians refer to as "the crazy place." On the way, Muhammad was again battered severely, blood running >from his hands and fainting twice. The soldiers woke him by repeatedly pouring ice water, then hot water, over his head. Not until January 16 - 63 days after his arrest - was Muhammad allowed to see a lawyer. This case, documented by Defense for Children International, is only one case of mistreatment in Israeli detention, despite a 1999 Israeli high court ruling banning "moderate physical pressure" in Israeli interrogation proceedings. DCI's February 12 request for an army investigation has yet gone unanswered. Not only does torture continue, but a return to military tactics and the rise of the right wing in Israel have reopened the door to the legalization of torture in Israeli prisons. Only this week, the Israeli High Court took one step back from its 1999 decision against moderate physical pressure. Soon the Knesset may debate a bill allowing pressure "in special cases." "We know what are 'special cases' and we know the definition of such a law," says Hannah Friedman of the Public Committee Against Torture in Israel. Friedman's group estimates that during the Intifada of the eighties Israel interrogated 23,000 Palestinians, most of them enduring techniques sanctioned by Israel as "moderate physical pressure." Those techniques included locking prisoners in tiny cubicles, violent shaking, beatings, deprivation of sleep and food, exposure to cold or heat and sexual and psychological threats against the prisoner or the prisoner's family. Since the court's ruling in September of 1999 that struck down this legalization of force, Friedman says her group has handled fewer complaints, but still "investigators have found a way to bypass the High Court." According to the committee's documentation, prisoners are still tortured by being deprived of sleep, tied to a chair for hours on end, prevented from seeing a lawyer for months, tortured by Palestinian collaborators and beaten or deprived of decent living conditions or medical care. "Especially since the start of the Intifada, we have seen an increase in cases like these," says Shawqi Eissa, assistant director of the Palestinian human rights organization LAW. The issue is of great concern, he says, particularly since the closure has prevented lawyers >from visiting many Palestinian detainees and documenting their cases. On February 16, attorney Jawad Boulous took on the ongoing use of pressure. He went to the high court to protest the continuing administrative detention of Amnah Muna, accused of luring a 16-year- old Israeli to his death in Ramallah. Muna has been held in Jerusalem's Russian Compound without charge since January 19. By her own account, Muna has been prevented from sleeping for 26 hours straight. The court rejected Bolous' petition, ruling that a suspect could be deprived of sleep as long as the intent was to advance the investigation and not exhaust the suspect, reported the Israeli daily Ha'aretz. Muna continues to deny her guilt and Boulous says that the investigators are seeking a confession for an open-and-shut case. The ruling has lawyers worried about what is to come. "I don't think this is practically allowing torture yet," says Israeli human rights lawyer Leah Tsemel. "It does amount to pressure to isolate the detainee." Israeli authorities seem unwilling to question the ongoing beating and mistreatment of prisoners. Rami Iz'oul, 18, was also arrested from Husan on October 30. Iz'oul was also taken to Kfar Etzion detention center, where he was beaten and had freezing water poured over his head during interrogation. Iz'oul was in bad enough condition to be taken to Hadassah Hospital for medical treatment over night. He then says he signed a false confession after a further beating. When LAW Society wrote to the Israeli attorney general requesting an investigation into the allegations, the request was refused. The state's attorney said that the case was not one of "public interest." Now the new Likud leadership is promising to revive a Knesset bill that would legalize methods of torture when it believes a suspect has certain information. The bill was first proposed after the high court decision, but was abandoned by the General Security Services after being promised a bigger budget. Then-justice minister Yossi Beilin said the bill would be reviewed after it was determined whether or not Israel is able to prevent attacks without using torture in interrogation. "Now we are afraid that there will be a new minister of justice who will allow this to happen," says Friedman. One of the candidates for the post is Likud Member of Knesset Ruby Rivlin - the very man who sponsored the 1999 "special cases" bill. -Published 21/2/01 ©Palestine Report From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:38 EST 2001 Article: 258349 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.mesh.ad.jp!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A97CD83.CD5BE893@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.jordan,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada Subject: Re: The Nation Special Report : Fields of Thorns References: <3A9725DC.113C1E51@bellsouth.net> <1epbwj3.1t5m7gx12fdmbuN%volker.greulich@libertysurf.fr> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 28 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:04:35 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.101 X-Trace: news2.atl 983026955 208.63.207.101 (Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:02:35 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:02:35 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174026 soc.culture.palestine:112576 soc.culture.jordan:24182 soc.culture.lebanon:144192 soc.culture.usa:601069 soc.culture.canada:258349 Volker Greulich wrote: > Roger Alexander wrote: > > > The Nation > > March 12, 2001 > > ========================================================================== > > > > Special Report > > > > Fields of Thorns > > by Mouin Rabbani > > Hello Roger, > > You are very well informed giving us news from March 2001 already. > > Thyanks anyway > > V.Greulich World is full of Schmart alecks. This is how the article came to me, and it is for an issue of a magazine dated in the future. Many magazines do that. RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:39 EST 2001 Article: 258350 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A97CFED.E7DC521A@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Re: Israeli cover-up hinders early resolution of refugee question References: <3A972EBE.87832892@bellsouth.net> <9784nt$3pa$1@sshuraab-i-1.production.compuserve.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 195 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 09:14:53 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.101 X-Trace: news2.atl 983027574 208.63.207.101 (Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:12:54 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 10:12:54 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174027 soc.culture.israel:326857 soc.culture.palestine:112577 soc.culture.usa:601070 soc.culture.canada:258350 soc.culture.british:550583 I'm not an expert on that issue. Shortly, I believe that the Arab nations were angered about the Israelis expelling the Palestinians. But their reactions were varying. In some countries, they expelled the Jews in reaction, in others they did not. In Egypt for example, there were many Jews until after the contemptible Lavon affair of 1954, after which most Jews were expelled. In Iraq, the Zionists were not satisfied with the results of the Iraqis' anger, and went into Baghdad with bombs and bombed synagogues. This got the Jews to leave. In North Africa, Zionists leafletted the Jews saying that they would be killed if they didn't leave. Zionists went to Yemen and brought out the Yemeni Jews, but then treated them abominably, so that many would hav returned. They are reputed to have stolen thousands of Yemeni babies and given them to Ashkenazi couples, telling the parents that their children had died. The Zionists, during the colonial period, did not want any but young atheist Jews in robust health to come to Palestine, but after they had expelled the Palestinians, they needed people to fill up the land. They still do, and are right now importing Russians who are not Jewish at all to fill the land. Meanwhile a half million or more, perhaps a million, Jews have left Israel for the US and other places. RLA Don wrote: > Could you provide some similar information on the expulsion of Jews in Arab > countries that could put this type of activity in the region in context? > What happened to the large Jewish populations in many Arab countries? > > "Roger Alexander" wrote in message > news:3A972EBE.87832892@bellsouth.net... > > The Scotsman (daily newspaper in Scotland) > > February 21, 2001 > > > > > > Israeli cover-up hinders early resolution of refugee question > > > > Ben Lynfield In Jerusalem > > > > WHILE international attention focuses on Israel''s future under Ariel > > Sharon, > > the Jewish state is engaged in a cover-up of its past - namely, the > > expulsion > > of Palestinians during its 1947-49 War of Independence. > > > > Palestinian ghosts from that era surfaced in recent months, but were > > put > > back > > in the bottle by Yossi Beilin, the justice minister. Mr Beilin blocked > > the > > release of excised cabinet statements and other documents about > > fighting in > > 1948, a time referred to by Arabs as the nakba, or catastrophe. The > > documents > > were requested by Benny Morris, a Cambridge-educated historian who > > teaches > > at > > Ben-Gurion University in Beersheba, who wanted them for revisions of > > his > > book, The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-49, published > > in > > 1988. > > > > According to Israeli law, classified documents are to be released after > > 40 > > years unless they harm state security, foreign relations or the privacy > > of > > individuals. In this case, closure of the archival material was > > reaffirmed > > out of concern that opening it would harm Israel''s foreign relations, > > Evyatar Frizel, the state archivist, said. > > > > "I can understand the hesitations of Beilin that splashing stories of > > Israel > > defence force atrocities would harm the negotiations with the > > Palestinians," > > Mr Morris said. "But this must be put against the more general argument > > > > that > > there will be endless negotiations with the Palestinians and Arab > > states > > and > > that this could remain as the [state''s] contention for the next 50 > > years. > > It''s a question of freedom of information versus foreign policy > > expediency." > > > > Mr Beilin declined to be interviewed for this article. The material > > will be > > kept confidential for at least another year, according to his decision. > > > > Among the items Mr Morris sought were expunged minutes of a cabinet > > meeting > > on 16 June, 1948, about the war with Arab neighbours, borders and > > whether > > to > > allow Palestinian refugees to return to areas held by Israeli forces. > > According to the transcript of the meeting, David Ben-Gurion, the prime > > > > minister, made clear that there would be no return of the refugees. He > > was > > also troubled that Israel had not taken Lydda and Ramle, Arab towns > > south-east of Tel Aviv. "That two thorns are remaining - Lydda and > > Ramle - > > is > > a serious flaw in our standing right now," Mr Ben-Gurion said. In the > > archives, five blanked out lines follow that statement and other > > comments > > by > > Mr Ben-Gurion and the foreign minister, Moshe Sharett, have equally > > ominous > > deletions. > > > > A month later, Israeli forces expelled tens of thousands of > > Palestinians > > from > > Lydda and Ramle in an operation commanded by a young officer named > > Yitzhak > > Rabin. The bluntly honest Mr Rabin wrote later in his memoirs that when > > Mr > > Ben-Gurion was asked what should be done with the Palestinians, he had > > ordered, with a wave of his hand, that they be expelled. Mr Rabin > > termed > > the > > expulsion "a harsh and cruel action" and noted that some of his men > > refused > > to participate. > > > > Were Israeli intentions to expel the civilian population of Lydda and > > Ramle > > enunciated by Mr Ben-Gurion a month before the towns were captured? The > > > > answer is not entirely academic. Until Mr Sharon''s election victory, > > Mr > > Beilin was a key negotiator with the Palestinians, and held discussions > > > > with > > counterpart Nabil Shaath on one of the main bones of contention, the > > Palestinian refugee issue. The practicalities of how that issue is > > resolved > > through a return of refugees, compensation or other means derive in > > part > > from > > which historical narrative is given greater weight. > > According to the Israeli narrative, the refugees fled of their own > > volition > > during a war launched by the Arab side to snuff out the Jewish state. > > As > > the > > Israeli prime minister, Ehud Barak, declared repeatedly, Israel bears > > "no > > moral responsibility" for the refugee problem. In practical terms, Mr > > Barak > > was willing to allow the return only of tens of thousands of refugees > > under > > the framework of family reunification, ie, with no Israeli culpability. > > > > According to the Palestinian narrative, Israel bears direct > > responsibility > > for their becoming refugees. The Palestinian side demands that three > > million > > refugees in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, the West Bank, Gaza Strip and > > elsewhere > > be given the "right of return", though Palestinian leaders say not > > everyone > > would exercise the right. > > > > Israeli leaders see this as a blueprint for destroying the Jewish > > state. > > The > > gap promises to become even wider. Mr Sharon has dropped the framework > > of > > the > > 1993 Oslo agreement, which called for negotiations about refugees, and > > says > > he will opt instead for a limited non-belligerency pact. That would > > mean he > > would not deal with the past at all. > > > > Hanan Ashrawi, a member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, called > > on > > Israel to release the information. "Allowing the truth to come out and > > an > > admission of culpability would go a long way to starting a process of > > reconciliation," she said. "If you are seeking peace and conciliation > > you > > must look at the real truth and come to terms with it." > > > > > > From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:39 EST 2001 Article: 258373 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A984F6D.F7D85088@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa Subject: Re: England asks Israel to free British citizen References: <3A95BCEB.5DD383BC@bellsouth.net> <3A95C593.71AD4057@ij.net> <3A95DC44.38C08395@hotmail.com> <3A95DD8A.9D19BE03@ij.net> <9791u5$ls4$1@neptunium.btinternet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 32 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:18:53 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.104 X-Trace: news1.atl 983060235 208.63.204.104 (Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:17:15 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:17:15 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174047 soc.culture.british:550647 soc.culture.canada:258373 soc.culture.usa:601196 The only place i have ever seen or heard of Israeli aid is where it gets the most publicity. RLA Osric wrote: > > As for your holocaust survivors, no gas chambers no holocaust. So there > > are no holocaust survivors. > > You undermine all your arguments with this one. There has been much > mythologising about the holocaust I'll grant you. I've looked long and hard > at this issue and have a good understaning of Nazi Germany and I cannot see > how there can be any other rational conclusion other than the Nazis did > indeed have a policy of extermination against the Jews. There are issues > that give credence to the holocaust deniers like the use of pictures of > survivors suffering from typhoid to illustate camp conditions, and the > cynical extortion racket being practiced at the moment, but the fact remains > there was mass state sponsored killing of Jews during WW2. It rings hollow, > however, being told to learn the lessons of the holocaust by a people that > promptly perpetrated a similar, but by no means equivalent, atrocity on > another people. Often the Allies are blamed for not preventing the > holocaust, but then I didn't see the IDF parachuting into Rwanda to prevent > a holocaust that was as bad as that perpetrated against the Jews. > Incidentally, how much Israeli aid went to Rwanda I wonder? Anyone know? > Seriously? > -- > > OSRIC > > THE BORDERS OF MY COUNTRY > RUN AROUND THE SOLES OF MY FEET From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:39 EST 2001 Article: 258374 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A98561B.1816ACDB@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Israeli Forces choose their targets in Al-Bireh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 161 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 18:47:23 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.104 X-Trace: news1.atl 983061945 208.63.204.104 (Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:45:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 19:45:45 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174054 soc.culture.israel:326902 soc.culture.usa:601204 soc.culture.canada:258374 soc.culture.british:550649 Israeli Forces choose their targets in Al-Bireh On the roof of the National School For the Blind in Al Bireh, 9 year-old Israa Zeidan tearfully recounted the horrific hour she and 74 other blind children spent jammed under a stairwell seeking safety from Israeli machine gun and tank fire. “The loud noises of bullets woke us up from our sleep, and we had to be taken out of our bedroom. I was shouting while I was looking for my 6-year-old brother. I was freezing and scared and I didn’t know what was happening because I can’t see and I couldn’t find my brother. We were all bumping into each other and everyone was screaming” Israa’s school is a boarding school that houses 75 blind children age 6-12 who come from different areas of the West Bank to Al-Bireh for special instruction. Throughout the current Intifada, these children have lived day in and day out with the sounds of Israeli gunfire, but on 19 and 20 of February, Israeli forces stationed at the illegal settlement of Pisagot, opened fire in the direction of the school, no more than one- half kilometre away, for three hours. On Monday night, heavy machine gun fire sprayed the windows and the walls, and on Tuesday night, a tank shell tore off a section of the roof, heavily damaging the ceiling of the dormitory below where teachers had evacuated the children only minutes before. On the day we visited, the ceilings inside the dormitories were leaking due to structural damage caused by the tank shell and machine gun fire, workmen on the roof were repairing the bullet riddled water tanks, and the electricity wires cut by gunfire had yet to be restored, leaving the school without heat and hot water. Downstairs, small children, both boys and girls energetically banged away at Braille typewriters in a small classroom, while in the corridor a large group of teenage girls sang a song about Salah Eh Din. The children we saw in the classrooms and in the hallways giggled when they were told that we were visiting, but their sad, tired and scared faces betrayed their giggles and you could tell they knew what we had come to see. Across the street, a school for boys and an adjacent Islamic college was also hit, though fortunately it was shut for the night. Almost all the windows on one side of the building were destroyed and the walls, bookcases and books were riddled with bullet holes. One teacher showed us a book with a bullet lodged in it and a metal file cabinet that had been shot through. Another teacher showed us a plate piled high with whole and mashed bullets they had pried from the walls. The teachers explained to us that the Israeli soldiers stationed on the hill above this area know that there are schools and a Red Crescent hospital nearby. We were also told that the Israeli’s know that one of these schools is a boarding school for the blind. Looking across the valley you can’t miss the settlement looming in the background high above the residential area. While we talked on the roof of the Boy’s school, we could see with our naked eyes the concrete bunkers erected by the military, and we watched a military jeep and tank slowly making their rounds of the settlement’s perimeter. The fact that the Israeli forces know exactly where and what they are shooting at was only further illuminated during our visit to the Hayat Al- Jedeeda newspaper office several blocks from the schools. Large windows that face the settlement surround the large single story office building. From the office you can clearly see the military fortifications and at night the office pressrooms are brightly lit up so that any one passing by can see inside. On February 12, at 8:00 in the evening, a staff member was sitting at his desk in front of the wide windows that face the settlement, Just when he reached back to get the phone, a single bullet, the only one fired that night at the building, penetrated the window and shot across his chest, lodging in the wall next to him. According the newspaper’s director, there are about 30 staff members who work the night shift at the office and on Thursday February 15 at about 10:30 pm, Israeli forces at Pisagot opened fire on the main pressroom. According to one staff member, they all ran for cover into another room but were again fired upon. As they fled from room to room, they were fired upon directly and according the staff, systematically. As we walked from room to room, it was easy to discern the path of machine gun fire. On one side of the building, there are two offices next to one another with large windows facing the settlement. One office window is in direct view of the settlement, but a concrete pillar and part of the outside wall obscures the second one. Thinking that they were safe in the second office, the staff ran for cover, but was again directly fired upon from the direction of the settlement. Several single shots penetrated the window one after the other, each making its way through a 4-foot wide gap between the wall and the pillar outside. When we asked about this rather amazing shot, staff members reiterated what we have heard many times before. The Israeli forces are armed with highly sophisticated weapons, including night vision equipment, high-powered binoculars and laser guided sniper rifles. They are also stationed above the cities of Al Bireh and Ramallah and have a clear view of the areas below the settlement. >From our visit, several unshakable facts were highlighted. First, the Israeli forces are indiscriminately targeting residential areas, hospitals and schools that are in full view of their outposts. Second, these soldiers are armed with highly sophisticated weapons that allow for full sight even at night and are excessive even in the face of a random shot fired by a lone gunman. Third, these forces are also using this heavy ammunition against boarding schools and fully staffed offices, and in the case of the Al Hayat al Jedeeda office, they are discriminately targeting civilians. For more information on the current situation in Palestine visit www.palestinemonitor.org From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:39 EST 2001 Article: 258378 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A987207.73B2EA3E@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: THE HEBRON MASSACRE Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 102 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 20:46:32 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.104 X-Trace: news1.atl 983069091 208.63.204.104 (Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:44:51 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:44:51 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174069 soc.culture.israel:326924 soc.culture.usa:601239 soc.culture.canada:258378 soc.culture.british:550661 THE HEBRON MASSACRE By Omar Turk In the early morning of February 25th, 1994, one of the most heinous acts upon humanity occurred in the Palestinian town of Hebron. A Jewish zionist terrorist opened fire with machine-guns and grenades on men and boys while they were bowing and praying to God. This crime against innocent people not only occurred in the holy month of Ramadhan, but also in the Ibrahimi mosque, where the prophet Abraham is buried. That frightful morning, over twenty-nine people were killed, and over one hundred wounded. The ages of those killed ranged from only eight years old, to over seventy years of age! The shear magnitude of how many people were affected in that act of racist hatred is almost incomprehensible. The women who lost their husbands and sons, the children who lost their fathers and brothers, etc, etc. For those who were wounded, even the most superficial wound leaves a scar for life. The high number of people permanently debilitated, or seriously physically or physiologically scarred, is distressing. Ironically, this atrocity was committed by a person who hated others because of their race. This mass murderer was ironically in Hebron because of another person who hated others because of their race; Hitler. The Isrealis have been granted land, money, and special privileges because of the so-called “Holocaust.” In turn, they are creating a “Holocaust” for the Palestinian people. The Isreali soldiers and settlers desecrate every aspect of Palestinian life, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. These gun totting, trigger happy gangsters, kill and maim Palestinian men, women and children at the blink of an eye, and without a whisper of shame from the so-called, civilized, democratic governments, most notably, the United States. To add insult to injury, the Isrealis receive more US aid each year than the victims of the Midwest floods, California earthquakes, and East Coast storms have in the last 10 years! I am sure the billions of dollars sent to the Isrealis each year, is of no comfort to the many of poor and homeless Americans forced to live and die on the streets because of the bankrupt welfare and public health care system in the US. The Isrealis also receive unlimited US veto power and support in the United Nations, that has not, nor probably never will be, paralleled. Through hardship after tragedy, the Palestinian people have remarkably survived. Their sheer will and determination for freedom, have been their only companion since 1948. With heavily armed, Isreali soldiers and settlers occupying and stealing Palestinian land and lives, and the world turning a blind and ignorant eye, generation after generation of Palestinian children will continue to struggle with stones and hope, until true justice is practiced, and freedom is achieved. The world must realize, that until the illegal settlements are dismantled, the refugees are allowed to return to their homes, and Jerusalem is the capital of the Palestinian state, peace will not be reached. The Palestinian dream is a simple dream, and the same dream of all peoples, to live in peace and freedom, and not under occupation and terror. In the mean time, Isreali zionist terrorists, such as Barouch Goldstien, will have a free hand to continue their murderous rampages. (originally written March 16, 1994) From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:40 EST 2001 Article: 258383 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A98761E.CCB8E6C1@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Re: THE HEBRON MASSACRE References: <3A987207.73B2EA3E@bellsouth.net> <4p_l6.278$9o5.34340@news.goodnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 135 Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 21:03:58 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.104 X-Trace: news3.atl 983070137 208.63.204.104 (Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:02:17 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2001 22:02:17 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174071 soc.culture.israel:326926 soc.culture.usa:601247 soc.culture.canada:258383 soc.culture.british:550666 PUre unadulterated lie. There is no evidence whatever of any plot. To assert that people who were peacefully praying were plotting anything is ridiculous on its face. Only Zionists in the world today try to scam the world with this sort of Big Lie. RLA David Lee Makowsky wrote: > This article is from the same dufus who was forced to post: > > "I just post them, I don't take responsibility for the truth of them." > From Roger Alexander in article > <39FBEC60.2EFEB473@bellsouth.net> > > The fact of the matter is that the "palestinians?" were planning a > terrorist attack from this site. Baruch Goldstein, who had many > friends killed and injured in previous attacks, learned about these > plans and tried to have the IDF stop it. They would not do anything, > so in order to save lives Baruch Goldstein acted. > > Any blame for the death of innocents lies squarely with the IDF for > not taking the necessary actions, and of course with the > "palestinians?" terrorists themselves. > > In article <3A987207.73B2EA3E@bellsouth.net>, > Roger Alexander wrote: > # THE HEBRON MASSACRE > # > # By Omar Turk > # > # In the early morning of February 25th, 1994, one of the most heinous > # acts upon > # humanity occurred in the Palestinian town of Hebron. A Jewish zionist > # terrorist > # opened fire with machine-guns and grenades on men and boys while they > # were > # bowing and praying to God. This crime against innocent people not only > # occurred > # in the holy month of Ramadhan, but also in the Ibrahimi mosque, where > # the prophet > # Abraham is buried. > # > # That frightful morning, over twenty-nine people were killed, and over > # one hundred > # wounded. The ages of those killed ranged from only eight years old, to > # over > # seventy years of age! The shear magnitude of how many people were > # affected > # in that act of racist hatred is almost incomprehensible. The women who > # lost > # their husbands and sons, the children who lost their fathers and > # brothers, > # etc, etc. For those who were wounded, even the most superficial wound > # leaves > # a scar for life. The high number of people permanently debilitated, or > # seriously > # physically or physiologically scarred, is distressing. > # > # Ironically, this atrocity was committed by a person who hated others > # because > # of their race. This mass murderer was ironically in Hebron because of > # another > # person who hated others because of their race; Hitler. > # > # The Isrealis have been granted land, money, and special privileges > # because > # of the so-called “Holocaust.” In turn, they are creating a “Holocaust” > # for > # the Palestinian people. The Isreali soldiers and settlers desecrate > # every > # aspect of Palestinian life, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. These gun > # totting, > # trigger happy gangsters, kill and maim Palestinian men, women and > # children > # at the blink of an eye, and without a whisper of shame from the > # so-called, civilized, democratic governments, most notably, the United > # States. > # To add insult to injury, the Isrealis receive more US aid each year > # than the > # victims of the Midwest floods, California earthquakes, and East > # Coast storms have in the last 10 years! I am sure the billions of > # dollars > # sent to the Isrealis each year, is of no comfort to the many of poor and > # > # homeless > # Americans forced to live and die on the streets because of the > # bankrupt welfare and public health care system in the US. The Isrealis > # also > # receive unlimited US veto power and > # support in the United Nations, that has not, nor probably never will be, > # > # paralleled. > # > # Through hardship after tragedy, the Palestinian people have remarkably > # survived. > # Their sheer will and determination for freedom, have been their only > # companion > # since 1948. > # > # With heavily armed, Isreali soldiers and settlers occupying and stealing > # > # Palestinian > # land and lives, and the world turning a blind and ignorant eye, > # generation > # after generation of Palestinian children will continue to > # struggle with stones and hope, until true justice is practiced, and > # freedom > # is achieved. > # > # The world must realize, that until the illegal settlements are > # dismantled, > # the refugees are allowed to return to their homes, and Jerusalem is the > # capital > # of the Palestinian state, peace will not be reached. The Palestinian > # dream > # is a simple dream, and the same dream of all peoples, to live in peace > # and > # freedom, and not under occupation and terror. > # > # In the mean time, Isreali zionist terrorists, such as Barouch Goldstien, > # > # will > # have a free hand to continue their murderous rampages. (originally > # written > # March 16, 1994) > # > # > # > > -- > There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good at > math and those that are not. > > dlm@mcs.net From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:40 EST 2001 Article: 258441 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9941DA.CD262954@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Bat Shalom - Protesting the closure today Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 148 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:33:14 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.50 X-Trace: news3.atl 983122295 66.20.148.50 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:31:35 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:31:35 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174105 soc.culture.israel:327008 soc.culture.palestine:112626 soc.culture.usa:601466 soc.culture.canada:258441 soc.culture.british:550820 Friends, Today felt like another good demonstration against the "closure" of the occupied territories. About 300 Israelis, mostly women but with a growing contingent of men, showed up at the Jerusalem-Bethlehem border-crossing to protest the so-called "closure". "Closure" is sometimes called a "blockade" or "siege", because the Israeli army actually encircles Palestinian towns and prevents residents from freely leaving or entering. Imagine how frustrating it must feel to have your freedom of movement obstructed -- picture yourself prevented from leaving your own city because foreign soldiers have bulldozed the roads and set down concrete slabs. But beyond the insult, there are serious problems -- access to medical care, food and supplies, education, and jobs. Several sick Palestinians who were held up at these barriers, pending a decision by the young Israeli soldiers on duty about letting them through, actually died as a result of the delay, including a baby. It is also shocking for me as an Israeli to realize that the closure provides virtually no security dividend to Israel; it is simply a deliberate act of intimidation. The Coalition of Women for a Just Peace held its first "closure" protest opposite the Defense Ministry in Tel-Aviv three weeks ago (ending in police violence, the arrest of 17, and practically no media exposure). Today's event was fairly quiet, no one was arrested, but the Israeli media announced that we "tried to force our way through the barriers". Well, not quite. It was a sunny day, and many Israelis had come from Tel-Aviv and other cities. Soon after the demonstration began, both sides of the road were already lined with demonstrators carrying or wearing signs "Closure kills", "Closure starves", "Closure creates enemies", and the usual "Stop the Occupation". Our presence, of course, caused the quick mobilization of a larger contingent of soldiers, who now manned the barrier. At the signal, the protesters stepped off the sidewalk and filled the road, marching quietly toward the checkpoint. We walked slowly and in a dignified manner. The soldiers began to scramble to prevent our getting through. At the checkpoint, they formed a cordon across the road, and our forward movement was stopped. We stood there facing them and began to chant the powerful, rhythmic slogan, which rhymes in Hebrew: End the closure in the territories - Get out of their bloodstream. End the closure in the territories - Give jobs to the workers. End the closure in the territories - Give food to the children. We continued chanting for quite a while, and journalists from Israel, Europe, and the States had some good photo opportunities of this confrontation. One young man in our group was forcefully shoved to the ground by a soldier, but after we pointed out to the soldier that he was on candid camera, he controlled himself much better. Other than that, it was a completely nonviolent action, and therefore powerful. From there, the entire group walked 100 meters back to hold up our signs to the drivers headed to the "bypass roads", which lead to the settlements. Our demonstration today was scheduled to take place simultaneously with a parallel demonstration on the Palestinian side of the border, but there was deep concern that Palestinians demonstrating at this location would provide a pretext for army violence, regardless of how quiet and dignified they were. Nevertheless, 50 or so brave "internationals" who were visiting Israel and Palestine for the Sabeel "peace and justice" conference did manage to come through the border from Bethlehem and join us. They told us that the Palestinians knew of our demonstration, and expressed their solidarity. A day earlier, these internationals had joined us on a Women in Black vigil in Jerusalem, bringing our a total yesterday to about 200. On the way to the event today, a friend of mine complained that no one had called her about the demonstration, but she had fortunately read about it in the newspaper ad. "You're making a revolution," she said, "and I don't want to be left out." The news this evening had good shots of the confrontation. The soldiers were armed with their M16s and we were armed with our signs and determination. In the long run, it's not much of a contest. The subjugation of a people is always doomed to failure - sic transit tyrannis. Ultimately the closure and all the apparatus of occupation will be dismantled. It's only a matter of time...and of how many more people will have to suffer first. Gila Svirsky Coalition of Women for a Just Peace Israel PS Thanks to Neta Golan who coordinated the entire event. -- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bat Shalom is a feminist peace organization working toward a just peace between Israel and its Arab neighbors. Bat Shalom, together with The Jerusalem Center for Women, a Palestinian women's peace organization, comprise The Jerusalem Link. Visit our web site for more information and our latest activities: http://www.batshalom.org We gratefully accept contributions to help support our work. Checks in any currency can be mailed to Bat Shalom, POB 8083, Jerusalem 91080, Israel. Tel: +972-2-563 1477; Fax: +972-2-561 7983. See our web site for information about tax-deductible contributions or bank transfers. To subscribe to Bat Shalom's newsletter, please reply by e-mail with the word "Subscribe" in the subject line. To unsubscribe, please write "Unsubscribe" in the subject line. ======================================== The "is" of identity is always false, as the famous semanticist said. So you can't say "All Israelis are racists", they aren't. The ones who aren't are, though, few and far between. Thank God for people like Gila Svirsky and her group. RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:40 EST 2001 Article: 258443 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A994358.8B6F29D5@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: more Straws in the Wind - Jews of Belgium state their position and commit themselves Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 184 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:39:37 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.50 X-Trace: news3.atl 983122678 66.20.148.50 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:37:58 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:37:58 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174106 soc.culture.israel:327009 soc.culture.usa:601469 soc.culture.canada:258443 soc.culture.british:550822 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 09:27:39 +0200 To: News List From: The Independent Palestinian Information Network Subject: Jews of Belgium state their position and commit themselves ______________________________________________________________________ i n f o p a l -- The Independent Palestinian Information Network ______________________________________________________________________ Appeal for a fair settlement of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict Jews of Belgium state their position and commit themselves We, citizens of this country, have decided to state our position as Jews regarding the events that are setting the Near East ablaze. As such, we feel it our duty to condemn the policy of successive Israeli governments towards the Palestinian people, in utter disregard of United Nations resolutions as well as of fundamental human rights including the right to self- determination. In expressing our opposition to this policy, we deny the Israeli leaders' claim to be acting in the name of the Jewish people. We also wish to bear witness to the diversity of Jewish public opinion in Belgium with regard to Israel, as opposed to the picture that some representatives of the Jewish community try to propagate. We refuse more specifically to be caught in a process of predefined reaction which aims to divert our conscience and deeds from supporting a just cause: that of peace based on the recognition of a sovereign and viable Palestinian State alongside the State of Israel, with Jerusalem as a capital of both countries. We consider that the Palestinian people's struggle for national independence is legitimate. The occupation for more than thirty years, in violation of the principles of international law, and the forced exile to which the Palestinian refugees have been condemned have lasted far too long. Any occupation will sooner or later give rise to resistance on the part of those who suffer >from this occupation. The climate of violence to which Israelis and Palestinians are today confined is the result of this long occupation.The roots of the confrontation are essentially political and cannot be reduced to a merely religious conflict. It is not enough to proclaim support for a peace to which virtually everyone lays claim. It is also necessary to state the conditions on which peace must rely. - It is important first of all to implement the decisions of the United Nations Security Council, and Resolution 242 in particular, demanding an Israeli withdrawal from the territories occupied in 1967. We believe that a Palestinian State will not be viable if Israel maintains under its authority, on the West Bank, in Gaza and East Jerusalem, settlements illegal in terms of international law. The annexation by Israel of most of the land on which these colonies have been set up can only result in a patchwork partition of the future Palestinian State. Movement between Palestinian towns or from a Palestinian town to a destination abroad would then be dependent on the goodwill of the Israeli authorities. How could a sovereign state ever be able to accept such an arrangement? Yet this is what the Palestinians were offered at Camp David in July 2000. - It is also important that the viability of the future Palestinian State be guaranteed by measures to promote its economic development and by ensuring the equal share of water resources with neighbouring countries. - The current plight of the refugees is another major obstacle to real peace between the two peoples. The Zionist movement instituted, after two thousand years, the Jews' right to return. Fifty years on, surely the Palestinians are equally entitled to demand a right for the refugees to return to the land from which they were driven or, for those for whom a return is not feasible, a right to compensation for the property taken from them. Recognition by Israel of this principle would finally give the Palestinians the justice they demand and would open the door to a true reconciliation. The Oslo agreement could have led in stages to a resolution of the conflict if moves towards peace had been able to outweigh the policy of unilateral decisions since pursued by Israel. Sadly, this opportunity was missed. In the light of the blatantly unequal balance of forces between the two sides and leniency shown by the United States towards Israel, bilateral negotiations between Israelis and Palestinians have very little chance of success unless pressure is exerted by the international community and especially by the European Union. The persistence of the current situation constitutes a serious threat to peace and political stability in the whole of the Middle East. We therefore ask the Belgian and European leaderships to ensure that international law prevail and to act determinedly so that Israel conform to it. We shall also take steps to make known all the appeals in this sense issued by those organisations involved, under extremely difficult circumstances, in the Israeli peace movement. We share the hopes and beliefs of the many Israelis who long for peace with their Palestinian neighbours and who today recognise their right to a sovereign and viable State. They know that this is the best guarantee for themselves to live in security in their own country and to defend its democratic values. As for us, we shall remain active until a just and balanced agreement puts an end to a conflict that hitherto has brought only suffering and desolation. Brussels, 25/12/2000 Signatories (227, 23-feb-2001) Barbara Abramowicz, Bettina Abramowicz, Manuel Abramowicz, Marco Abramowicz, Stella Abramowicz, Mateo Alaluf, Quentin Alaluf, Valérie Alaluf, Daniel Apelbaum, Jacques Aron, Cécile Baldwin, Emmanuelle Balzano, Georges Bauherz, Hugues Pierre Baum, Mylène Baum, Joëlle Baumerder, Jérome Beghin, Marianne Berenhaut, Daniel Berkenbaum, Ivan Berkenbaum, David Berman, Henri Bier, Sarah Blau, Micheline Blust, Francis Borle, Dorette Brat, Ariane Bratzlavsky, Carine Bratzlavsky, Inge Brinkman, Didier Buch, Jerzy Buczek, Jacques Bude, Catherine Buhbinder, Maroussia Buhbinder, Anita Chaberman, Rosy Chauvier, Sarah Chemd, Eric David, Fransi De Villar Dille, Judith Debroux, Frédérique Devillez, Koen Dille, André Dimidschstein, Elise Draise, Gisella Drenger-Nudel, Agnès Dumont, Nathalie Dunkelman, Maurice Errera, Bernard Fenerberg, Patricia Fenerberg, Fanny Filosof, Maurice Fogel, Danielle Frank, Norbert Frankfort, Thérèse Frankfort, Annelise Früh, Laurette Frydman, Mady Frydman, Patricia Geller, Geneviève Gendebien, Pierre Gillis, Victor Ginzburgh, André Goldberg, Charles Goldenberg, Marianne Goldfinger, Rosa Goldman, Charly Goldmann, Maurice Goldstein, Jeannette Goldsztein, José Gotovitch, Louise Gotovitch, Anne Grauwels, Maya Grinberg, Simon Gromowski, Catherine Gross, Elie Gross, Laurent Gross, Léa Grunbaum, Julos Gruszow, Paul Gruszow, Marcel Gudanski, Marco Gudanski, Michel Gudanski, Edgard Gunzig, Alfred Gutmann, Boris Gvirtman, Sylvie Harold, Christiane Havet, Anne Herscovici, Charles Herscovici, Paula Hirsch, Marc Hordies, Berthy Hudes, Agnès Hurwitz, Henri Hurwitz, Manuelle Hurwitz, Léon Ingber, Christian Israël, Lolita Iven-Abramowicz, Jean-Pierre Jacquemain, Gaspard Jedwab, Virginie Jortay, Dolf Kacenelenbogen, Amélia Kalb, Willy Kalb, Catherine Kestelyn, Simone Klajman, Anna Klipper, Stéphane Kohn, Jacques Koplowicz, Rachel Kramermann, Estelle Krzeslo, Edith Kuropatwa, David Lachman, Alain Lapiower, Hélène Lapiower, Sarah Lefèvre, Cécile Lenkowitz, Florence Levis, Allégra Levy, Rosine Lewin, Dominique Liebermann, Henri Liebermann, Sophie Liebermann, Anne Liebhaberg-Scarpa, Adeline Liebman, Michèle Liebman, Riton Liebman, Sophie Liebman, Claire Liebmann, Daniel Liebmann, Jean-Claude Liebmann, Léon Liebmann, Laura Liebstaedter, Lili Liensens, Christophe Lisart, Anne Lucas, Arié Mandelbaum, Ariéh Mandelbaum, Marcelle Mandelbaum, France Marage, Vital Marage, Chantal Marissal, Noé Martens, Thérèse Massart, Nicole Mayer, Robert Minc, Yves Minc, Viviane Mora, Irène Moskovic, Annette Nicolle, Josée Noël, Emmanuel Nudel, Michel Nudel, Myriam Othmane, L. Pary, Tessa Parzenczewski, Jenny Peper, Jean-Marc Picard, Manuel Piette, Alain Potaznik, Léon Potaznik, Léon Prays, Gérard Preszow, Irène Prowizor, Fabienne Raindorf, Jean-Michel Raindorf, Nadia Raindorf, Norma Raindorf, Jacques Rajchman, Jacques Ravedovitz, Léon Ravedovitz, Adi Raz, David Roger, Pierre Roger, Claire Roger-Wolf, Cécilia Ronsse Nussenzveig, Suzy Rosendor, Sabine Rozen, Dominique Rozenberg, Edith Rubinstein, Daniel Saks, Anne Sapir, Marc Sapir, Robert Scarpa, Herman Schonker, Lisa Schonker, Noémie Schonker, Blanche Schtourner, Daphné Simon, Jacques Simon, Dora Simonovici, André Slezingher, Vincent Soubeyran, Michel Staszewski, Marcel Stelzer, Marka Syfer, Georges Sylin, Henriette Sztajer, Gitla Szyffer, Anne Thyrion, Daniel Tursch, Lisa Tzavara, Esther Vamos, Muriel Vamos, Arnaud Van Cutsem, Simon Van Dessel, Eric Van Praag, Dan Van Raemdonck, Pierre Van Thieren, Jean Vogel, Laurent Vogel, Ludmila Vondracek, Bella Wajnberg, Henri Wajnberg, Admon Wajnblum, Henri Wajnblum, Liliane Wald, Axel Wang, Nadine Wang, Richard Wang, Mathieu Weemals-Rosenfeld, Thierry Wenes, Gilbert Wolf, Larissa Wozek, Grégory Yarm, Léon Zaidenband. Further signatures to this appeal can be addressed by e-mail to: adhesion@israel-palestine.be. This appeal will be made public at a press conference and will be widely distributed. This all costs money. If you wish to help the campaign, contributions -however small - may be transferred directly to Belgian bank account number 063-9216842-34, which has been set up for the purpose. +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+--+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ ++ for educational and non-profit use only ++ +---------------------------------+ best viewed in courier font | I N F O P A L | | Email: info@infopal.org | | Web: http://www.infopal.org | +---------------------------------+ ======================================== Zionists posting on this board accuse me of antisemitism. It isn't true, of course, all I want in Palestine is a fair peace, which they do not. Again, the "is" of identity is false again, as not all Jews are supporters of the oppression of Palestinians. RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:40 EST 2001 Article: 258445 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A994713.698269F7@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Usama Al-Zughayer, killed while sleeping in his bed Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 61 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:55:31 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.50 X-Trace: news3.atl 983123632 66.20.148.50 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:53:52 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:53:52 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174108 soc.culture.israel:327011 soc.culture.usa:601476 soc.culture.canada:258445 soc.culture.british:550830 One of many many items. I've been reading so many reports of such atrocities that it's really tempting to give in and just "get used to them." It is certainly old news by the standards of the US media. Only a minuscule amount of the situation in the occupied territories is being reported. And yet, pause for a moment and think about Usama. He is 18. He is not a soldier. He went to sleep on Wednesday in his own bed in his own house. We'll never know if he had a chance to wake up before his death. And the US media keep referring to Gilo as a "suburb of Jerusalem". It is not. It is a settlement built on land confiscated from Beit Jala, where Usama lived and died. -xxx xxxxxxxx (forwarder's name left out) [To be removed from, or added to, this list, send me a note] Usama Al-Zughayer, killed while sleeping in his bed Usama Al-Zughayer, 18 years old, was killed Wednesday night (February 20-21) while sleeping in his bed. Facts: Israeli military sources admitted that the shelling and bombardment of Beit Jala was not in response to Palestinian gunfire, but came after intelligence information indicating that Palestinians planned to fire at the settlement of "Gilo" from Beit Jala. Usama's family, who were visiting friends when the shelling started, were unable to reach their house and check on what happened to their son and their house for nearly two hours, due to the heavy fire directed at the town from Israeli tanks and armor. Palestinian Civil-Defense crews were also unable to reach the house until two hours later. They found Usama's body buried under the debris of a fallen wall. His leg was severed and found a few meters away and his face was mutilated. According to the Palestinian Civil Defense, the wall behind Usama's bed took a direct hit from an Israeli shell that penetrated and exploded next to his bed. The wall also crashed on his body. ========================================== ISRAEL IS A TRULY HORRIBLE COUNTRY! Israel is worse than South Africa ever was. Those people at least had a conscience that could be appealled to (after, ofcourse, their pocketbooks had first been touched). Israelis have no conscience, they are true monsters. RLA Roger Alexander From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:41 EST 2001 Article: 258451 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A994DF2.8F4136E3@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada Subject: Letter to Globe & Mail re criticism of YMCA by Betty Molchany Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 34 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:24:50 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.50 X-Trace: news3.atl 983125390 66.20.148.50 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:23:10 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:23:10 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174112 soc.culture.israel:327015 soc.culture.usa:601484 soc.culture.canada:258451 February 25, 2001 The Editor The Globe and Mail Dear Editor: Rather than criticizing their International YMCA, as reported by John Gray, Feb. 24, the Canadian YMCA should be praising their international headquarters for their courage, a characteristic absent over most of Canada and the United States. In this Internet age, the media and organizations such as the Canadian YMCA cannot long destroy, hide, or distort the truth about Israel and the Palestinians. The media, et. al, will soon see that they have much to be ashamed of, as stated yesterday by a Canadian hero, Victor Ostrovsky, a former Mossad spy agent. We all have access to minute-by-minute data and photos and can see for ourselves the facts which go unreported by the media. There is access now to historic documents which destroy the myths of the birth of Israel and the myths which blame the Palestinians for all their difficulties and the Israeli atrocities against them. Betty Molchany Attorney at Law 31 Blue Ridge Avene Front Royal, VA 22630-3045 From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:41 EST 2001 Article: 258452 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A994F8A.87940767@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa Subject: Letter to the Editor =?iso-8859-1?Q?=96?= Maclean's Magazine, Toronto, Canada re Barbara Amiel article Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 114 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:31:38 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.50 X-Trace: news3.atl 983125798 66.20.148.50 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:29:58 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:29:58 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174113 soc.culture.israel:327016 soc.culture.canada:258452 soc.culture.usa:601485 The leter below is from Monzer Zimmo, an Arab Canadian. Barbara Amiel is reputed to be the wife of the publisher of this magazine and of a newpaper. RLA Barbara Amiel is at it again. In her piece "The Jewish question" (Maclean's – February 26, 2001), Ms. Amiel advances the argument that "Without Israel, Jews would have to assimilate, convert and disappear." Being a committed Zionist, she sees no alternative to that dismal end other than bearing "the heavy burden" of what she refers to as "some new set of myths" such as the Jewish "supposed role as persecutors of the brave victorious Palestinian people." Obviously, Barbara Amiel continues to deny Zionists' persecution of Palestinians. In that regard I encourage her to read the Cambridge- educated historian Benny Morris' book "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-49" published in 1988, which is based almost entirely on Zionists' own documentation. She will then be reminded of some facts about Zionists' direct and deliberate role in persecuting Palestinians. Most other facts about the subject continue to be blocked >from being released to the public domain by Yossi Beilin, Israel's Minister of Justice, under the pretext that such release would harm Israel's foreign relations. According to Amiel's argument, Jews who survived over millennia without Israel are all of a sudden at risk of disappearing as a result of the failure of the Zionist experiment of a Jewish state in Palestine. This experiment was doomed to failure before it even started because it neglected the rights of the indigenous Palestinian population. Instead of using that failure to exploit Jewish fear, Ms. Amiel should learn >from failure and start looking for a just resolution to the conflict in Palestine before it becomes too late to do so. If Zionists acknowledge their role in depriving millions of Palestinians from their human rights for over half a century, and if they accept their responsibility towards rectifying that wrongdoing, they will find forgiving Palestinian partners who will then welcome them as equals. Palestinians will never accept Jews as superior, but will accept them as equals and will accept to live with them in peace as they did for a very long time before the Zionist experiment. In 1947-49, Zionists robbed the majority of Palestinian civilians of their homes, farms, villages, towns and neighbourhoods. Today, there are more than four million Palestinian refugees living in refugee camps under extremely miserable conditions less than few hundred kilometers >from their own homes. Zionists continue to deny Palestinian refugees their internationally recognized right of return to their own homes, just so that Barbara Amiel and her Zionist comrades can have their Jewish state. Furthermore, within that Jewish state itself, Jews are treated as superior citizens and non-Jews are treated as inferior ones. Just as one example, examine the level of municipal services provided within Israel to Jewish neighbourhoods and the lack of such services to Christian and Muslim neighbourhoods. Barbara Amiel continues to neglect the facts about Palestinian struggle for justice. Contrary to what Ms. Amiel implies, the idea of one state for all is not the creation of some elements of the Israeli "left". It is in fact a Palestinian idea. The concept of one state for all was the core of Palestinian demands from the very beginning. That idea gave impetus to the Palestinian struggle because it is deeply rooted in justice. Ms. Amiel should remember that it was due to Zionist rejection of the idea of one state for all that the Palestinian leadership had to abandon such idea in favour of the idea of two states. Hence, the ill-advised Oslo peace process which is now widely known to be less about peace and more about process. Zionists, through exploitation of Jewish fear, convinced Jews to reject the idea of sharing the Holy Land with Christian and Muslim Palestinians as equals. First, they claimed all of the Holy Land exclusively for themselves through the power of arms, thanks to the unlimited and continuously unconditional support by the USA and other western nations. Then, in a typically Machiavellian tactic, they gave their "generous offer" to divide the Holy Land (78% to the Jewish state and the remaining 22% to be further divided in such a way that the resulting Palestinian entity over 95% of the 22% would never be viable because it would lack sovereignty, water resources, contiguity of land and economic viability). Zionists, like Ms. Amiel, contend that if that formula for dividing the Holy Land is not accepted as is, then Jews would have to face the risk of being annihilated. It is amazing how much energy those Zionists spend on inciting Jewish fear instead of trying to find ways and means to end it. What about the idea of having security through justice? What about the idea of sharing instead of taking and dividing? By exploiting Jewish fear in perpetuity, the Zionists represent the worst thing that could ever happen to Jews inside or outside Israel. Regardless of Zionists' wishful thinking, Palestinians will not go away. They will only increase in number. Palestinians will not evaporate in thin air, and they know that neither will the Jews. The only "final" solution to the conflict in Palestine is the one that will be based on both Jews and Palestinians living together as equals. Let there be one bi-national bi-lingual multicultural state where individual liberties are secured and collective religious and spiritual rights are protected. In other words, let us take the example of Canada, the best country in the world in which to live, and apply it. What would be wrong with that? I wish Barbara Amiel and other hard-core Zionists would consider reflecting on such a thought. The conflict in Palestine will never end with a "victor" and a "loser". The simplistic military concept of a victor and a loser means a continuation by the loser of the struggle resulting in a never-ending conflict. If we want that conflict to come to an end, we must find a formula where there are no "victors" or "losers" in Palestine, but winners on both sides. Such formula can be found through the concepts of truth, reconciliation, sharing, understanding and justice. Monzer Zimmo February 25, 2001 Monzer_Zimmo@hotmail.com From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:41 EST 2001 Article: 258456 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!news.gv.tsc.tdk.com!falcon.america.net!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A99514B.E869D699@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Israel stymies U.S. aid efforts - Import curbs, travel restrictions snarl projects in Palestinian territories Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 70 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 12:39:08 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.50 X-Trace: news3.atl 983126253 66.20.148.50 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:37:33 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 13:37:33 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174115 soc.culture.israel:327019 soc.culture.usa:601488 soc.culture.canada:258456 soc.culture.british:550848 Israel stymies U.S. aid efforts Import curbs, travel restrictions snarl projects in Palestinian territories By WILLIAM A. ORME JR. New York Times JERUSALEM -- Israel's increasingly strict controls on the movement of Palestinian goods and people are paralyzing U.S. government economic development projects in the Palestinian territories, U.S. officials here said as Secretary of State Colin Powell arrived in the region Saturday. Building projects have been stalled by Israeli import restrictions, and local participants in economic training programs cannot travel freely to courses within the territories or abroad, diplomats said. The United States has been investing more than $100 million yearly in development projects in Palestinian areas. U.S. aid officials here were especially irked last week when Israel refused to let a high-level delegation of Palestinian economic officials and private business leaders travel to a long-planned series of seminars at a U.S.-run economic institute in Rome and the World Trade Organization in Geneva. Financed and organized by the U.S. Agency for International Development, the seminars were intended to foster Palestinian compliance with international norms regarding intellectual property rights and foreign trade policies. "We urge the Israelis to cease their policies of economic pressure against the Palestinians, including limitations on the movement of people involved in important economic or business activity," Larry Shartz, the spokesman for the U.S. Embassy in Tel Aviv, said on Saturday. The delegation needed special Israeli exit permits for 17 of its 21 Palestinian members - the others held U.S. passports or were residents of Israeli-ruled East Jerusalem - in order to travel to Ben Gurion International Airport, outside Tel Aviv. Though told initially by Israeli military authorities that the once routine permits would be granted, the delegation was informed shortly before the scheduled departure that all 17 applications had been denied. "It would defy logic to identify any legitimate security concerns for the State of Israel to justify its illegal actions in this matter," said Maher Masri, the Palestinian minister of economy and trade, who organized the delegation in collaboration with U.S. aid consultants. Spokesmen for the Israeli military's Civil Administration Office said Israeli government policy now is to reject virtually all travel applications from Palestinians, even when there is no indication applicants pose a security risk, unless high-level Israeli officials specifically endorse the request. ====================================== Israel is just so consistently inhuman, so busy doing evil at every turn, it is hard to conceive how a country could be so outrageous. There will eventually be a resolution of this terrible oppression, but I suspect that many people now living will go to their graves despising the bastards who run that barbaric country. Note, if you will, that every adult Israeli Jew, less the Orthodox, who lead charmed lives, must serve in the army, not once but every year. Thus almost the entire adult population of Israel are explicitly complicit with this ongoing atrocity. Bastards all. RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:41 EST 2001 Article: 258465 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A997D94.17693D7F@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Re: Bat Shalom - Protesting the closure today References: <3A9941DA.CD262954@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 18 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 15:48:04 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.50 X-Trace: news3.atl 983137581 66.20.148.50 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:46:21 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:46:21 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174135 soc.culture.israel:327042 soc.culture.palestine:112637 soc.culture.usa:601545 soc.culture.canada:258465 soc.culture.british:550907 Since you sons of bitches want to deport the Palestinians from the West Bank, I would guess you really mean you want to deport those who disagree with your racist oppression out of Palestine altogether. Jordan comes next, Lebanon, then Syria and Egypt. RLA meshehu wrote: > In article <3A9941DA.CD262954@bellsouth.net>, Roger Alexander > wrote: > > > Thank God for people like Gila > > Svirsky and her group. > > They should all be deported to the west bank. From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:42 EST 2001 Article: 258469 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!netnews.com!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9986D3.9F2595B4@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Re: Baruch Goldstein saved lives (Was: Re: THE HEBRON MASSACRE) References: <3A987207.73B2EA3E@bellsouth.net> <4p_l6.278$9o5.34340@news.goodnet.com> <3A98761E.CCB8E6C1@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 179 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:27:31 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.50 X-Trace: news3.atl 983139948 66.20.148.50 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:25:48 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:25:48 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174138 soc.culture.israel:327047 soc.culture.usa:601553 soc.culture.canada:258469 soc.culture.british:550914 I have never heard these arguments before, and frankly, I don't believe them. I note that btzedek apparently put out three issues before folding in 1998, or at least they never updated their internet page. This rag, BTW features such notables as Louis Rene Beres, a rabid Zionist (anyone who wants to see him in action just do a web search, he has pages and pages on the Net) and Steven Plaut, another stalwart, much beloved by none other than Hank Roth. The facts remain what they were: Goldstein took several weapons into the mosque where people were praying and shot dead some 29 of them, while shortly thereafter another about 24 were killed by other vicious Zionists. If the good doctor thought there was an Arab massacre coming, which was very unlikely, given that the Arabs didn't have weapons, he could have reported this to the police or IDF, which maintain a heavy presence in Hebron. He didn't, he is dead and may God rest his soul. RLA David Lee Makowsky wrote: > Roger believes this is a lie with no evidence. I suggest that he > should take a look at these references. I have posted at least one of > them (perhaps all of them) before in a prior dispute with Howard > Aubrey about this: > > http://www.manfredlehmann.com/sieg417.html > http://www.manfredlehmann.com/sieg418.html > http://www.btzedek.co.il/revision.htm - This one contains a general > history of Hevron with a note on Baruch Goldstein (May his Memory be > for a Blessing) towards the end. > > As for who tells the truth and who lies, it is Roger and not I who > posted this: > > "I just post them, I don't take responsibility for the truth of them." > From Roger Alexander in article > <39FBEC60.2EFEB473@bellsouth.net> > > In article <3A98761E.CCB8E6C1@bellsouth.net>, > Roger Alexander wrote: > # PUre unadulterated lie. There is no evidence whatever of any plot. > # To assert that people who were peacefully praying were plotting > # anything is ridiculous on its face. Only Zionists in the world today > # try to scam the world with this sort of Big Lie. > # RLA > # > # David Lee Makowsky wrote: > # > # > This article is from the same dufus who was forced to post: > # > > # > "I just post them, I don't take responsibility for the truth of them." > # > From Roger Alexander in article > # > <39FBEC60.2EFEB473@bellsouth.net> > # > > # > The fact of the matter is that the "palestinians?" were planning a > # > terrorist attack from this site. Baruch Goldstein, who had many > # > friends killed and injured in previous attacks, learned about these > # > plans and tried to have the IDF stop it. They would not do anything, > # > so in order to save lives Baruch Goldstein acted. > # > > # > Any blame for the death of innocents lies squarely with the IDF for > # > not taking the necessary actions, and of course with the > # > "palestinians?" terrorists themselves. > # > > # > In article <3A987207.73B2EA3E@bellsouth.net>, > # > Roger Alexander wrote: > # > # THE HEBRON MASSACRE > # > # > # > # By Omar Turk > # > # > # > # In the early morning of February 25th, 1994, one of the most heinous > # > # acts upon > # > # humanity occurred in the Palestinian town of Hebron. A Jewish zionist > # > # terrorist > # > # opened fire with machine-guns and grenades on men and boys while they > # > # were > # > # bowing and praying to God. This crime against innocent people not only > # > # occurred > # > # in the holy month of Ramadhan, but also in the Ibrahimi mosque, where > # > # the prophet > # > # Abraham is buried. > # > # > # > # That frightful morning, over twenty-nine people were killed, and over > # > # one hundred > # > # wounded. The ages of those killed ranged from only eight years old, to > # > # over > # > # seventy years of age! The shear magnitude of how many people were > # > # affected > # > # in that act of racist hatred is almost incomprehensible. The women who > # > # lost > # > # their husbands and sons, the children who lost their fathers and > # > # brothers, > # > # etc, etc. For those who were wounded, even the most superficial wound > # > # leaves > # > # a scar for life. The high number of people permanently debilitated, or > # > # seriously > # > # physically or physiologically scarred, is distressing. > # > # > # > # Ironically, this atrocity was committed by a person who hated others > # > # because > # > # of their race. This mass murderer was ironically in Hebron because of > # > # another > # > # person who hated others because of their race; Hitler. > # > # > # > # The Isrealis have been granted land, money, and special privileges > # > # because > # > # of the so-called “Holocaust.” In turn, they are creating a “Holocaust” > # > # for > # > # the Palestinian people. The Isreali soldiers and settlers desecrate > # > # every > # > # aspect of Palestinian life, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. These gun > # > # totting, > # > # trigger happy gangsters, kill and maim Palestinian men, women and > # > # children > # > # at the blink of an eye, and without a whisper of shame from the > # > # so-called, civilized, democratic governments, most notably, the United > # > # States. > # > # To add insult to injury, the Isrealis receive more US aid each year > # > # than the > # > # victims of the Midwest floods, California earthquakes, and East > # > # Coast storms have in the last 10 years! I am sure the billions of > # > # dollars > # > # sent to the Isrealis each year, is of no comfort to the many of poor and > # > # > # > # homeless > # > # Americans forced to live and die on the streets because of the > # > # bankrupt welfare and public health care system in the US. The Isrealis > # > # also > # > # receive unlimited US veto power and > # > # support in the United Nations, that has not, nor probably never will be, > # > # > # > # paralleled. > # > # > # > # Through hardship after tragedy, the Palestinian people have remarkably > # > # survived. > # > # Their sheer will and determination for freedom, have been their only > # > # companion > # > # since 1948. > # > # > # > # With heavily armed, Isreali soldiers and settlers occupying and stealing > # > # > # > # Palestinian > # > # land and lives, and the world turning a blind and ignorant eye, > # > # generation > # > # after generation of Palestinian children will continue to > # > # struggle with stones and hope, until true justice is practiced, and > # > # freedom > # > # is achieved. > # > # > # > # The world must realize, that until the illegal settlements are > # > # dismantled, > # > # the refugees are allowed to return to their homes, and Jerusalem is the > # > # capital > # > # of the Palestinian state, peace will not be reached. The Palestinian > # > # dream > # > # is a simple dream, and the same dream of all peoples, to live in peace > # > # and > # > # freedom, and not under occupation and terror. > # > # > # > # In the mean time, Isreali zionist terrorists, such as Barouch Goldstien, > # > # > # > # will > # > # have a free hand to continue their murderous rampages. (originally > # > # written > # > # March 16, 1994) > # > # > # > # > # > # > # > > # > -- > # > There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good at > # > math and those that are not. > # > > # > dlm@mcs.net > # > > -- > There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good at > math and those that are not. > > dlm@mcs.net From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:42 EST 2001 Article: 258473 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A998D80.9D7445E0@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Re: Bat Shalom - Protesting the closure today References: <3A9941DA.CD262954@bellsouth.net> <3A997D94.17693D7F@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 24 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 16:56:00 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.50 X-Trace: news1.atl 983141655 66.20.148.50 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:54:15 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:54:15 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174140 soc.culture.israel:327050 soc.culture.palestine:112640 soc.culture.usa:601558 soc.culture.canada:258473 soc.culture.british:550917 meshehu wrote: > In article <3A997D94.17693D7F@bellsouth.net>, Roger Alexander > wrote: > > > Since you sons of bitches want to deport the Palestinians from the West > > Bank, > > I would guess you really mean you want to deport those who disagree with > > > > your racist oppression out of Palestine altogether. > > Jordan comes next, Lebanon, then Syria and Egypt. > > None of them live in Israel, you moron. I'll spell it out for the pea brain. Once Israel cleanses Palestine of Palestinians, it will do the same to Jordan, Lebanon, Syria and Egypt. ISRAEL UBER ALLES! Got it? I thought you could. RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:42 EST 2001 Article: 258475 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.media.kyoto-u.ac.jp!europa.netcrusader.net!152.163.239.131!portc03.blue.aol.com!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A999065.A4F13B8A@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada Subject: Unequal treatment in the Middle East By DAVID HIRST Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 143 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:08:22 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.50 X-Trace: news1.atl 983142397 66.20.148.50 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:06:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:06:37 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174143 soc.culture.israel:327053 soc.culture.british:550925 soc.culture.usa:601561 soc.culture.canada:258475 "If any Israeli leader ever had the makings of a Western villain, the destroyer of U.S. interests in the region, it is surely Sharon. " http://www.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/geted.pl5?eo20010221a1.htm EDITORIAL Wednesday, February 21, 2001 Unequal treatment in the Middle East By DAVID HIRST Special to The Japan Times Beirut -- The Israelis have just elected a prime minister who, brought before the bar of international justice, would surely be judged a war criminal in the class of, say, Ratko Mladic, the Bosnian Serb commander who is as firmly associated with the Srebrenica massacre as Gen. Ariel Sharon was with that of Sabra and Shatila during the 1982 Israeli invasion of Lebanon. Sharon calls Palestinian Authority leader Yasser Arafat "a murderer and a liar," but in the runup to the elections, the liberal Israeli press gave full play to the deceit and brutality that have been the twin pillars of his own career. One of his likely coalition partners, Avigdor Liebermann, has spoken of burning Beirut, bombing Tehran and destroying the Aswan Dam. His ideas on the furtherance of the peace process make a total mockery of it. If any Israeli leader ever had the makings of a Western villain, the destroyer of U.S. interests in the region, it is surely Sharon. Yet, within a week of the emergence of this would-be villain as Israel's premier-elect, whom do the Americans and British go and bomb? That old, familiar, Arab villain, Iraqi President Saddam Hussein. Of course, his crimes and atrocities are of an order that words can barely describe. Keeping him from committing more of them is one thing, however; the motives and methods of those who, once again, have assigned themselves that task -- and the whole regional context in which they do it -- is something else. According to the Americans and British, Friday's raid, the first on such a scale for over two years, was necessitated by the upgrading of Hussein's defenses and the increased threat that posed to their aircraft's routine forays over the "no-fly zones." Even if that is true, it has few takers in the Arab world. For the Arabs, the raid is a clear escalation of the Anglo-American campaign against Hussein, with more political import than military. With the rise of Sharon, there could hardly have been a more blatant or more richly symbolic display of the double standards that, in their view, typify Western (especially American) treatment of those two great zones of perennial Middle East crisis, the Arab-Israeli conflict on the one hand and Iraq and the Persian Gulf on the other. It bodes ill for both. Each crisis has its own origins and dynamics. Yet they are, and always have been, intrinsically connected. Hussein himself pioneered what came to be known as "linkage," when, immediately after his invasion of Kuwait in 1990, he offered to withdraw in return for an immediate, unconditional Israeli withdrawal from the occupied territories. The offer was greeted with cries of outrage in the West. The United States would not dream of subjecting Israel to such blackmail for the sake of a solution in the Gulf. But in due course, linkage surreptitiously asserted itself. Then President George Bush promulgated a "new world order" whose cornerstone in the Middle East was to be a just and lasting Arab-Israeli settlement. America's Arab allies understood that to achieve it, the U.S. would back way form its historic pro-Israeli bias. "Bush," said Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak at the time, "agrees with me that the Israelis must be pushed into a Palestine solution." Fairness and firmness in one crisis zone were to work wonders in the other, and vice versa. But it was not to be. Both crises have festered and worsened. Hussein grows stronger and more assertive; as for his weapons of mass destruction, whose destruction is the central aim of U.S. policy, it has become clear that nothing short of his own removal from power can prevent him from developing them. On the Arab-Israeli front, the peace process has all but collapsed; violence and mutual hatred deepens. Pernicious though these two crises are on their own, they are even more malignant together. And, with the ascent of Sharon, both have as their key players two individuals who incarnate all that is most extreme, dangerous and destructive in the region. This, then, is the moment that the U.S., under a new administration, has chosen to embark on a more activist policy in one zone of crisis. That, presumably, is what the raid portends. Leading members of the Bush team, notably Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, are known to favor a more forceful interpretation of the Iraqi Liberation Act -- under which the U.S. is supposed to help the Iraqi opposition bring about "representative" government in Iraq -- to which Clinton merely paid lip service. The raid may please the Iraqi opposition, or some of it, as well as Persian Gulf countries, or some of their ruling elites, which are most directly threatened by Hussein, but it is deeply unpopular in the wider Arab arena. The Arabs -- people especially but governments, too -- have been growing steadily more hostile to American-led "containment" of Iraq; key Arab countries are making ever greater breaches in the U.N. sanctions. Indeed, supporting Iraq has become a necessary yardstick of patriotism, even for a devoutly pro-Western ruler such as King Abdullah of Jordan, second only to supporting the intifada. This is not for love of Hussein or out of any hostility toward Iraqis who seek to overthrow him. It is because of natural solidarity with a fellow-Arab country -- and, more than ever now, because of linkage, and outrage at the way the world's only superpower penalizes Arabs for their misdemeanors but never its Israeli ally. "It is clear what the U.S. is now about," said an Iraqi exile in Beirut. "It wants erring Arab regimes to correct their priorities, to re-establish Saddam, not Sharon, as the real enemy; it may have some success in the Gulf, but in general, and unfortunately for us Iraqis who have most reason to hate him, it is turning him into an Arab champion again." In truth, no one revels in linkage like Hussein. He outbids Arab leaders in his militancy, castigating those who "don't know how to fight." While others quarrel over the disposal of an official billion-dollar "intifada fund," he gives money directly to the families of Palestinian martyrs. In the wake of the latest raid, he ordered the formation of 21 divisions of the Jerusalem Liberation Army, an ostensibly volunteer force with the mission of reconquering Palestine "from the river (Jordan) to the sea." U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell begins an inaugural tour of the Middle East next week. The raid will have made his task more difficult than ever. There is no way he can persuade pro-Western Arab regimes, increasingly nervous of the anti-American feelings of their publics, to assist American efforts to manage either zone of crisis, if that means they must line up behind a more aggressive policy against Hussein in the one, while simultaneously adjusting themselves to the outrageous requirements of Sharon in the other. There could always be a miracle, namely, that in resorting to a new activism against Hussein, Bush will do the same against the Hussein-equivalent in Israel. But judging by the lack of any perceptible official alarm at Sharon's election, he will have to wreak a great deal of havoc before such a miracle occurs and America begins to think of fairness, and true objectivity, as a sensible way of saving the Middle East from the twin calamities that surely await it. David Hirst is the Middle East correspondent of the London Guardian. Based in Beirut, he has been covering the region for 30 years. The Japan Times: Feb. 21, 2001 (C) All rights reserved web site : From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:43 EST 2001 Article: 258478 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!hammer.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A999268.FFE85029@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Re: Israel stymies U.S. aid efforts - Import curbs, travel restrictions snarl projects in Palestinian territories References: <3A99514B.E869D699@bellsouth.net> <98dm6.321$9o5.39339@news.goodnet.com> <3A997439.2D19E02B@libertysurf.fr> <250220011501076796%albert@nethere.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 103 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 17:16:56 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 66.20.148.50 X-Trace: news1.atl 983142911 66.20.148.50 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:15:11 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 18:15:11 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174146 soc.culture.israel:327057 soc.culture.usa:601565 soc.culture.canada:258478 soc.culture.british:550929 Albert Reingewirtz wrote: > In article <3A997439.2D19E02B@libertysurf.fr>, ajax grandjean > wrote: > > > David Lee Makowsky wrote: > > > > > In article <3A99514B.E869D699@bellsouth.net>, > > > Roger Alexander wrote: > > > > > > # Israel stymies U.S. aid efforts > > > # Import curbs, travel restrictions snarl projects in Palestinian > > > # territories > > > > > > # By WILLIAM A. ORME JR. > > > # New York Times > > > > > > # JERUSALEM -- Israel's increasingly strict controls on the movement of > > > # Palestinian goods and people are paralyzing U.S. government economic > > > # development projects in the Palestinian territories, U.S. officials here > > > # said as Secretary of State Colin Powell arrived in the region Saturday. > > > > > > # Building projects have been stalled by Israeli import restrictions, and > > > # local participants in economic training programs cannot travel freely to > > > # courses within the territories or abroad, diplomats said. > > > > > > [ Parts deleted - dlm ] > > > > > > # ====================================== > > > > > > # Israel is just so consistently inhuman, so busy doing evil at every > > > # turn, it is hard to > > > # conceive how a country could be so outrageous. There will eventually be > > > # a resolution > > > # of this terrible oppression, but I suspect that many people now living > > > # will go to their > > > # graves despising the bastards who run that barbaric country. > > > # Note, if you will, that every adult Israeli Jew, less the Orthodox, who > > > # lead charmed lives, > > > # must serve in the army, not once but every year. Thus almost the entire > > > # adult > > > # population of Israel are explicitly complicit with this ongoing > > > # atrocity. > > > # Bastards all. > > > > > > First of all, many (I believe most) of the orthodox men do serve in > > > the army Roger. > > > > > > However, what is entirely outrageous about this is that the > > > "palestinians?" on the one hand are doing everything they can to kill > > > Jews, and on the other hand are complaining that Israel does not treat > > > them like good neighbors. > > > > > > What's next? A PLO resolution in the United Nations condeming Israeli > > > civillians for aggresively bumping into an exploding car bomb? > > > -- > > > There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good > > > at > > > math and those that are not. > > > > > > dlm@mcs.net > > > > Wait a minut ! > > > > I am aa math teacher ! > > I know 400 palestinians are killed since the beginning of the > > Intifada, > > and 4000 others severely injured. > > > > As for the Jews : Number is about 20, including the Arabs of Israël. > > > > Don't want an answer from bad faith !. > > > > John, Paris. > > The answer is very simple. Look at your own backyard. People with > stones, guns, sticks who refuse to drop them end up dead in the USA. > There is at least on such a person dead in California almost every day > and rarely does a cop die from the confrontation because cops kill > people with stones, sticks and guns who refuse to drop them let alone > fire or throw the stone. Do the math and you will find that in the USA > the balance sheet between death by those who use guns, stones, stick > and cops is extremely weighted toward the stone throwers and such. The > result, they are always exonerated even when no gun is found on the > dead man. All the cop has to say is "I suspected that the dead man had > a gun" and he is in the clear free to kill another man he suspect of > having a gun. > Compare the situation in a civilized area as the USA with a > neighborhood where grenades, bombs explode anywhere any place and shots > to kill Israeli's is a daily occurrence. Go ahead Mr. mathematician do > the math and you will find that in fact, not in theory Israel is > restraining itself remarcably under the circumstances and should be > praised for it. Idiocy. There is no comparison to be drawn between a civilized country and Israel. Israel today is the most (perhaps leaving out China in Tibet) oppressive country oppressing another people in the world. The only reason Israel hasn't gone to the extreme and pushed the Palestinians right out is that the world would finally not stand for it. Get real, idiot. RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:43 EST 2001 Article: 258510 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.direct.ca!look.ca!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A99D269.3355E0D0@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Re: Usama Al-Zughayer, killed while sleeping in his bed References: <3A994713.698269F7@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 78 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 21:50:01 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.102 X-Trace: news1.atl 983159302 208.63.204.102 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:48:22 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:48:22 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174203 soc.culture.israel:327136 soc.culture.usa:601659 soc.culture.canada:258510 soc.culture.british:551021 Was there heat in the house? Maybe that was his way of keeping warm. Or maybe, the threat of being attacked prompted him to sleep with his clothes on. What is it with you Zionists? When do you admit your actions are just a nausea on the face of the earth? When you meet your maker? RLA Kim Bebbington wrote: > On Sun, 25 Feb 2001 11:55:31 -0600, Roger Alexander > wrote: > > >One of many many items. I've been reading so many reports of such > >atrocities that it's really tempting to give in and just "get used to > >them." It is certainly old news by the standards of the US media. Only > >a > >minuscule amount of the situation in the occupied territories is being > >reported. > > > >And yet, pause for a moment and think about Usama. He is 18. He is not > >a > >soldier. He went to sleep on Wednesday in his own bed in his own house. > > > >We'll never know if he had a chance to wake up before his death. > > > >And the US media keep referring to Gilo as a "suburb of Jerusalem". It > >is > >not. It is a settlement built on land confiscated from Beit Jala, where > > > >Usama lived and died. > > > >-xxx xxxxxxxx (forwarder's name left out) > > > >[To be removed from, or added to, this list, send me a note] > > > >Usama Al-Zughayer, killed while sleeping in his bed > > From Reuters: > Palestinian civil defence officials aid the teenager who died had ben > asleep when a tank shell hit his home, but his corpse was fully > dressed and he was wearing boots. > > >Usama Al-Zughayer, 18 years old, was killed Wednesday night (February > >20-21) while sleeping in his bed. > >Facts: > >Israeli military sources admitted that the shelling and bombardment of > >Beit > >Jala was not in response to Palestinian gunfire, but came after > >intelligence information indicating that Palestinians planned to fire at > > > >the settlement of "Gilo" from Beit Jala. > >Usama's family, who were visiting friends when the shelling started, > >were > >unable to reach their house and check on what happened to their son and > >their house for nearly two hours, due to the heavy fire directed at the > >town from Israeli tanks and armor. > >Palestinian Civil-Defense crews were also unable to reach the house > >until > >two hours later. They found Usama's body buried under the debris of a > >fallen wall. His leg was severed and found a few meters away and his > >face > >was mutilated. According to the Palestinian Civil Defense, the wall > >behind > >Usama's bed took a direct hit from an Israeli shell that penetrated and > >exploded next to his bed. The wall also crashed on his body. > > > >========================================== > > > >ISRAEL IS A TRULY HORRIBLE COUNTRY! > >Israel is worse than South Africa ever was. Those people at least > >had a conscience that could be appealled to (after, ofcourse, their > >pocketbooks had first been touched). Israelis have no conscience, > >they are true monsters. > >RLA > > > > > >Roger Alexander > > From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:43 EST 2001 Article: 258513 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A99D86A.6D2D9CCA@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Re: Israel stymies U.S. aid efforts - Import curbs, travel restrictions snarl projects in Palestinian territories References: <3A99514B.E869D699@bellsouth.net> <3A997439.2D19E02B@libertysurf.fr> <250220011501076796%albert@nethere.com> <3A999268.FFE85029@bellsouth.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 142 Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 22:15:38 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.204.102 X-Trace: news2.atl 983160839 208.63.204.102 (Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:13:59 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2001 23:13:59 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174209 soc.culture.israel:327144 soc.culture.usa:601669 soc.culture.canada:258513 soc.culture.british:551024 David Lee Makowsky wrote: > In article <3A999268.FFE85029@bellsouth.net>, > Roger Alexander wrote: > > # Albert Reingewirtz wrote: > > # > In article <3A997439.2D19E02B@libertysurf.fr>, ajax grandjean > # > wrote: > > # > > David Lee Makowsky wrote: > > # > > > In article <3A99514B.E869D699@bellsouth.net>, > # > > > Roger Alexander wrote: > > # > > > # Israel stymies U.S. aid efforts > # > > > # Import curbs, travel restrictions snarl projects in Palestinian > # > > > # territories > > # > > > # By WILLIAM A. ORME JR. > # > > > # New York Times > > # > > > # JERUSALEM -- Israel's increasingly strict controls on the movement of > # > > > # Palestinian goods and people are paralyzing U.S. government economic > # > > > # development projects in the Palestinian territories, U.S. officials here > # > > > # said as Secretary of State Colin Powell arrived in the region Saturday. > > # > > > # Building projects have been stalled by Israeli import restrictions, and > # > > > # local participants in economic training programs cannot travel freely to > # > > > # courses within the territories or abroad, diplomats said. > > # > > > [ Parts deleted - dlm ] > > # > > > # ====================================== > > # > > > # Israel is just so consistently inhuman, so busy doing evil at every > # > > > # turn, it is hard to > # > > > # conceive how a country could be so outrageous. There will eventually be > # > > > # a resolution > # > > > # of this terrible oppression, but I suspect that many people now living > # > > > # will go to their > # > > > # graves despising the bastards who run that barbaric country. > # > > > # Note, if you will, that every adult Israeli Jew, less the Orthodox, who > # > > > # lead charmed lives, > # > > > # must serve in the army, not once but every year. Thus almost the entire > # > > > # adult > # > > > # population of Israel are explicitly complicit with this ongoing > # > > > # atrocity. > # > > > # Bastards all. > > # > > > First of all, many (I believe most) of the orthodox men do serve in > # > > > the army Roger. > > # > > > However, what is entirely outrageous about this is that the > # > > > "palestinians?" on the one hand are doing everything they can to kill > # > > > Jews, and on the other hand are complaining that Israel does not treat > # > > > them like good neighbors. > > # > > > What's next? A PLO resolution in the United Nations condeming Israeli > # > > > civillians for aggresively bumping into an exploding car bomb? > > # > > Wait a minut ! > > # > > I am aa math teacher ! > # > > I know 400 palestinians are killed since the beginning of the > # > > Intifada, > # > > and 4000 others severely injured. > > # > > As for the Jews : Number is about 20, including the Arabs of Israël. > > # > > Don't want an answer from bad faith !. > > # > The answer is very simple. Look at your own backyard. People with > # > stones, guns, sticks who refuse to drop them end up dead in the USA. > # > There is at least on such a person dead in California almost every day > # > and rarely does a cop die from the confrontation because cops kill > # > people with stones, sticks and guns who refuse to drop them let alone > # > fire or throw the stone. Do the math and you will find that in the USA > # > the balance sheet between death by those who use guns, stones, stick > # > and cops is extremely weighted toward the stone throwers and such. The > # > result, they are always exonerated even when no gun is found on the > # > dead man. All the cop has to say is "I suspected that the dead man had > # > a gun" and he is in the clear free to kill another man he suspect of > # > having a gun. > # > Compare the situation in a civilized area as the USA with a > # > neighborhood where grenades, bombs explode anywhere any place and shots > # > to kill Israeli's is a daily occurrence. Go ahead Mr. mathematician do > # > the math and you will find that in fact, not in theory Israel is > # > restraining itself remarcably under the circumstances and should be > # > praised for it. > > # Idiocy. There is no comparison to be drawn between a civilized country > # and Israel. Israel today is the most (perhaps leaving out China in Tibet) > # oppressive country oppressing another people in the world. > # The only reason Israel hasn't gone to the extreme and pushed the Palestinians > # right out is that the world would finally not stand for it. Get real, idiot. > > This claim by Roger that Israel is oppressing the "palestinians?" when > compared with what is actually happening leads to one of two > conclusions: > > 1) Israelis are the most incompetent oppressors in the history of the > world. > > Or > > 2) Roger is a liar and/or an idiot. > > Which is it people? > -- > There are three types of people in the world. Those that are good at > math and those that are not. > > dlm@mcs.net Mr. Makowsky has a limited repertoire of idiotic remarks he makes. Some, like the one purportedly responding to an article blasting Israel, but only ad homineming me, is of the "So's your old man" variety, and is not a response at all. This one setting up two alternatives, is a logical fallacy, in that it purports to include all the possibilities. The technical name is the fallacy of the excluded middle. It is perfectly possible that Israel is a quite competent oppressor, and I would assert that Israel is such, and further that this is the consensus of people who are more expert than I. The likeliest explanation for Israel's not being even more ruthless is that although Israelis have no conscience, or so I believe, they have some regard for that part of the world which is not the leadership of the United States. The ordinary person even in the US, armed with the facts would exclaim that this oppression is outrageous. The rest of the world is on record time and again, in the UN where the votes condemning Israel for its human rights violations run up to 153 to 2, the two being US and Israel. Again, I don't believe that the mere consderation for the opinion of mankind (decent or indecent) moves Israel. I think the US restrains Israel because the US has to have some regard for world opinion even if Israel does not. RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:43 EST 2001 Article: 258535 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9A83AA.9BA852C3@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa Subject: Ismail Zayid Canada Palestine Association to Sol Kasimer, YMCA Canada Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 85 Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 10:26:18 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.61.184.46 X-Trace: news2.atl 983204667 208.61.184.46 (Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:24:27 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2001 11:24:27 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174254 soc.culture.canada:258535 soc.culture.israel:327215 soc.culture.palestine:112709 soc.culture.usa:601814 Last fall, the international YMCA went to occupied Palestine and wrote a report in support of their cause. They were then bombarded by international Zionists. The American and Canadian YMCA's distanced themselves from the international Y. This letter is in response to a letter in the Globe and Mail a Canadian newspaper, from the head of the Canadian Y. One must keep in mind that the Globe and Mail is owned and run by Zionist interests. RLA From: Ismail Zayid To: sol.kasimer@ymca.ca Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 5:26 PM Subject: Who is the biased party? Canada Palestine Association POBox 1085 Halifax, NS, B3J 2X1 Mr. Sol Kasimer, Chief Executive Officer, YMCA Canada 25 Feb. 2001 Dear Mr. Kasimer: We are stunned by your statement {Globe & Mail, Feb. 23} accusing the international YMCA delegation's report on their visit to the occupied Palestinian territories as biased. Every statement in that report has been verified and corroborated by virtually every human rights organisation, including Amnesty International, UN Human Rights Commission, Israeli B'Tselem Human Rights group, the Israeli League for Civil and Human Rights, International Commission of Jurists and many others. For over 33 years, Israel has been in violation of virtually every article of the Fourth Geneva Convention, including collective punishments, detention without charge, torture, deportation, denial of access to religious sites, demolition of thousands of homes, including total villages, like Emmaus, Yalu and Beit Nuba [my own hometown] and expropriation of property and creation of illegal Jewish settlements, and many other acts of violation of human rights. Israeli brutal and oppressive illegal occupation of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and Gaza has been allowed to continue for over 33 years, in defiance of international law and repeated Security Council resolutions, because of the unquestioning support of the US and its allies and the deafening silence of some bodies like YMCA Canada, that claim to care for human rights, freedom of speech and religion and justice. In your criticism of the report, you mention that it "did not consider the part Palestinian violence has played in the conflict". As I stated, the massive violation of the human rights of Palestinians has gone on for over 33 years and did not start in response to the current Intifadah, if that is what you have in mind. Deplorable as the killing of innocent civilians is, be they Jewish, Christians or Muslims, it is hypocritical to compare the violence of predominently stone-throwing children with the artillery, rockets and Apache gunships of Israel's army resulting in hundreds killed and thousands of Palestinians maimed and injured, mostly children, in this recent Intifadah. Furthermore, you forget that it is a legitimate right for any people under foreign occupation, even Palestinians, to resist foreign occupation. You may recall we all stood in support of the French and other Europeans resisting Nazi foreign occupation. You question the lack of talking to the Israelis, by the delegation. Did it occur to you that the catalogue of human rights violations reported is manifest and requires no explanation? Furthermore, Israel has a longstanding record of refusing cooperation with other human rights bodies, including UN Human Rights Commission, examining this concern. Finally, the Palestinian people are calling on all those who care for human rights and justice to speak out on this massive suffering and oppression that the Palestinian people are subjected to, and demand implementation of international law and termination of this illegal occupation. We believe it behooves you, if you have any doubt, to go and visit the occupied territories and see for your self the magnitude of this suffering. Yours sincerely Ismail Zayid, MD. President, Canada Palestine Association. From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:43 EST 2001 Article: 258643 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp1.njy.teleglobe.net!teleglobe.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9D4758.98F4967@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa Subject: ISRAEL =?iso-8859-1?Q?DOESN=92T?= REPRESENT ALL JEWS By Lillian S. Robinson Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Lines: 84 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 12:45:44 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.62 X-Trace: news1.atl 983385844 208.63.206.62 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:44:04 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:44:04 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174506 soc.culture.israel:327554 soc.culture.palestine:112892 soc.culture.canada:258643 soc.culture.usa:602492 ISRAEL DOESN’T REPRESENT ALL JEWS By Lillian S. Robinson* (Freelance) In Bernard Landry, Quebec will soon have a premier who stoutly affirms that to be anti-Israel is to be anti-Semitic. As a Jew deeply troubled by Israel's war against the Palestinian people, I wonder if there's one kind of nationalism Landry gets wrong, for it is precisely because I belong to the Jewish people that I feel such anguish at the crimes being committed in my name. The supporters of Israel have so long insisted that the Israeli state is the sole representative of Jewish interests, both in the Middle East and the rest of the world, that many gentiles are convinced, along with Landry, that to call Israeli policy into question is to attack all Jews. Weekly Vigil In fact, growing numbers of North American Jews are beginning to think critically about the Israeli state and, here in Montreal, we have initiated a weekly noon-time vigil on Fridays at the Israeli consulate. In 1982-83, at the time of the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and the massacres at the Sabra and Shatilla refugee camps, some Jews in the United States and Canada took tentative action - petitions, demonstrations, full-page newspaper ads - declaring, in the words of one American ad, "Menachem Begin does not speak for us." That we have had little influence, so far, on our countries' policies is woefully clear, as North American military and political aid continues to be Israel's principal mainstay. Two recent incidents illustrate the pervasiveness of the stereotype that all Jews march in lockstep with the Israeli military. After the Chretien government bravely dissociated itself from the United States and Israel in one Security Council vote, it then, with an election in the offing, offered an ambiguous statement to "the Jewish community" that some took as an apology for that vote. The second case involves Yves Michaud. Although Michaud was denounced for maintaining that "the Jews" recognize only their own suffering, not anyone else's, and that Jews, along with the other "ethnics," constitute an anti-sovereignist bloc, no one took him to task for his most anti-Semitic statement. This was made when he told a Jewish senator, Leo Kolber, that it took "you Jews" 2,000 years to have a country of "your own" while Quebecers are still waiting. Apparently, asserting that a Canadian Jewish legislator owes his allegiance to a foreign power does not count as anti-Semitism, whereas stereotypes about a "Jewish" position on Quebec sovereignty do. The silence suggests that everyone agrees that we Jews belong to Israel, and that Israel belongs to "us." Same Lesson It is ironic that North American Jews, most of whom did not directly suffer the atrocities of the Holocaust, have tended to derive the same lesson as the Israeli state from the wholesale destruction of European Jewry. "The nations abandoned us then," they argue, so "the Jewish people's only protection against anti-Semitism is to rely on our own military force." In 1991, during the Gulf War, an American rabbi even used this argument, relying on the moral authority of the Shoah to call for bombing the Iraqis into the sand. But there is another lesson to be learned from the Holocaust, one far more attuned to the ethical register of Jewish life and thought, but much harder to enact in reality. This lesson teaches us that the only way to combat anti-Semitism, the particular form of racism directed against Jews, is to combat all racism. It is precisely because "the nations" abandoned the Jews of Europe to their annihilation that Jews worldwide have to work so that no such vicious, dehumanizing conditions be allowed to flourish - against any group. If, as I believe, it is a Jewish mission to combat all forms of racism, it is clearly our responsibility to make sure that we are not ourselves guilty of it. That means not occupying the Palestinian homeland (Gaza and the West Bank), not responding to children's rock-throwing with automatic weapons, not torturing prisoners, not harassing those crossing boundaries between the occupied territories and Israel itself on their daily trips to work, not demolishing homes on bureaucratic pretexts. It's a negative list, to be sure, but it would be a beautiful beginning. * Lillian S. Robinson is principal of the Simone de Beauvoir Institute at Concordia University and a member of Montreal's Jewish Alliance Against the Occupation. (Montreal Gazette, http://www.montrealgazette.com/editorial/pages/010226/5123611.html , 26 February 2001) From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:44 EST 2001 Article: 258647 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9D4F38.16BBF7B2@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Ha'aretz: Barak was biggest settlement builder since '92 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:19:20 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.62 X-Trace: news2.atl 983387859 208.63.206.62 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:17:39 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:17:39 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174511 soc.culture.israel:327558 soc.culture.usa:602510 soc.culture.canada:258647 soc.culture.british:551946 Ha'aretz: Barak was biggest settlement builder since '92 By Nadav Shragai Ha'aretz Correspondent Ha'aretz 27 February 2001 The government began construction of 1,943 housing units in the territories last year - the largest number in any year since 1992, according to data released yesterday by MK Mussi Raz (Meretz). The figures are based on official data from the Housing Ministry. Nor has the building stopped since the outbreak of the Al Aqsa Intifada: In the last quarter of 2000, work was begun on 954 housing units, up from 368 in the final quarter of 1999, Raz said. And since such public construction accounts for only about 25 percent of all building in Israel, the actual number of units built in the territories last year was probably around four times higher. The figures also showed that only 632 units have so far been sold in the new Har Homa neighborhood of East Jerusalem, out of some 2,000 that were put up for sale. Additionally, the Housing Ministry only recently issued a tender for development work in the Tel Zion neighborhood of Kochav Ya'akov, south of Ramallah. The plan is to build 696 apartments there for Haredi families - which would double the settlement's current population of about 600 families. -------------------------------------------- ~~ Reconciliation Conference LIST ~~ since 1994 Abraham Weizfeld organizer JPLO-OLPJ-subscribe@YahooGroups.com --------------------------------------------------- From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:44 EST 2001 Article: 258648 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9D5313.9C524663@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british,soc.culture.canada Subject: Managing the News, Israeli style Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 46 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:35:47 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.62 X-Trace: news2.atl 983388846 208.63.206.62 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:34:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:34:06 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174514 soc.culture.israel:327560 soc.culture.usa:602515 soc.culture.british:551953 soc.culture.canada:258648 http://www3.haaretz.co.il/eng/scripts/article.asp?mador=14&datee=2/26/01&id= 111295 Ha'aretz Monday, February 26, 2001 Claiming discrimination, reporter disrupts Powell news conference Anglo File Staff A news conference yesterday with U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell and Prime Minister-elect Ariel Sharon was disrupted when a foreign correspondent angrily charged the proceedings were "undemocratic." The news conference, at the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, was broadcast live on CNN, BBC World, and Israeli TV and radio. Ben Lynfield, resident Middle East correspondent for The Scotsman, ignored requests of the news conference moderator, Foreign Ministry Spokeswoman Yaffa Ben Ari, to hold his question, and kept on complaining he was not allowed to ask his question. Powell, however, said he would only respond to questions handled through the moderator. Lynfield later told Ha'aretz he was angry because the list of reporters to ask questions was picked before the news conference, contrary to standard procedure of taking questions in random order. Howard Goller, chairman of the Foreign Press Association in Israel, said, "If time after time, the same people get to ask questions, because they have made arrangements beforehand, then it's time to look at how things should be done." A senior correspondent said the foreign press corps in Israel has "been frustrated that, during the Barak years, live-broadcast Israeli TV and radio have been given priority" above the foreign press. In defense of her actions, Ben-Ari said it was "not a regular press conference, there was limited time," and Lynfield's protests were "uncalled for" and "premeditated. From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:44 EST 2001 Article: 258649 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9D570F.B8CFD7E4@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Ali Abunimah : Letter to Powell: Alarming Developments Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 98 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 13:52:48 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.62 X-Trace: news3.atl 983389866 208.63.206.62 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:51:06 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 14:51:06 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174515 soc.culture.palestine:112900 soc.culture.usa:602519 soc.culture.canada:258649 soc.culture.british:551966 Subject: Letter to Powell: Alarming Developments February 28, 2001 To: secretary@state.gov Dear Secretary Powell, I am writing to express my alarm and concern at several developments in the occupied territories today. According to several media reports, Israeli shelling struck a Kindergarten in the occupied Gaza Strip today injuring a five year old girl. According to the reports, "Israeli shells landed at the entrance of a kindergarten in the village of Abasan east of Khan Yunis, near the border between the Gaza Strip and Israel. Another shell struck a mosque. The five-year-old was injured by shell splinters and taken to a hospital in Khan Yunis." (AFP, February 28, 2001) The Al-jazira satellite network also reports that Israeli occupation forces today demolished a multi-family Palestinian home near the city of Ramallah. It is particularly distressing that Israel took these barbaric actions only a day after the State Department issued its latest report documenting similar abuses. I am further alarmed by reports in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz today which state that the Israeli occupation forces in the West Bank are considering "ways of legalising security patrols led by Jewish settlers." This would be a very dangerous and provocative development. I am writing to urge the United States to use all its influence to ensure that Israel does not further empower these terror groups. As the State Department reported in its annual human rights country practices report, the settlers in the occupied territories are responsible for severe violence against Palestinians. According to your departments own report, in 2000 "There were credible reports that settlers killed at least 14 and injured a number of Palestinians during the 'Al-Aqsa Intifada,' usually by stoning vehicles, which caused fatal accidents, shooting them, or hitting them with moving vehicles. For example, on October 1, unidentified Israeli settlers opened fire on a car holding Palestinians, killing an 18-month old baby." The State Department report also confirms that "the Israeli government did not prosecute the settlers for their acts of violence. In general, settlers rarely serve prison sentences if convicted of a crime against Palestinians." (Occupied Territories, Country Reports on Human Rights Practices--2000, U.S. Department of State, February 2001) Furthermore, the settlers leaders have frequently made threats of violence and terror against Palestinians. In November, Lenny Goldberg, a settler leader was quoted in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz saying: "The Arabs must be made to feel afraid, since the IDF isn't doing it...They aren't afraid of the IDF, so we have to make them fear us. When the settlers put up a roadblock, the Arabs stay two kilometers away. When the IDF does it, they aren't afraid." I hope that given these facts you can understand the extreme alarm that this matter causes. I hope you will immediately reiterate to Israel that: (1) The presence of settlers in the occupied territories is a violation of Article 49 of the 1949 Geneva Conventions Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War. (2) Israel must cease and desist from using weapons supplied or paid for by the United States to commit human rights abuses in the occupied territories. Secretary Powell, there is much the United States can do to restrain Israel's continuing aggression against the Palestinians under occupation. I hope you will find the courage to act urgently. Sincerely, Ali Abunimah Chicago, Illinois ali@abunimah.org http://www.abunimah.org From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:45 EST 2001 Article: 258665 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9D99C3.A9C72912@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british Subject: Web hate on trial as Zundel case nears end Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 128 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:37:23 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.62 X-Trace: news3.atl 983406937 208.63.206.62 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:35:37 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:35:37 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174527 soc.culture.canada:258665 soc.culture.usa:602599 soc.culture.british:552030 "We're trying to protect the Internet and protect maximum freedom of speech in Canada against the goose-steppers who want to take us back to the Inquisition..." -CAFE Director Paul Fromm on attempts by Organized Jewry to censor the Net, National Post, February 27, 2001 ====================================== http://www.nationalpost.com/search/story.html?f=/stories/20010227/486754.html National Post | February 27, 2001 Web hate on trial as Zundel case nears end Desmond Brown TORONTO - A four-year human rights case against Holocaust denier Ernst Zundel is coming to an end and the decision could set a legal precedent regarding hate groups on the Internet. "This is the first Canadian case dealing with the jurisdiction of the human rights law to deal with hate messages on the Internet," Marvin Kurz, lawyer for B'nai B'rith Canada. "This is a first step in dealing with that medium. It's not the last step." The Web site, operated by Mr. Zundel, should be ordered shut down because it violates Section 13 of the Human Rights Act, which prohibits discriminatory practices to be transmitted over the telephone that may expose persons to hatred or contempt, Mark Freiman, counsel for the Canadian Human Rights Commission, said in closing arguments. A decision is expected this spring over charges that were initiated in 1997 as a result of two complaints. "Access to the Internet is overwhelmingly by means of the telephone network," said Mr. Freiman. Mr. Zundel's Web site includes articles such as: Hitler's Policy Was Emigration, Not Extermination; There Is No Proof the Holocaust Occurred; and The Big Lie. Mr. Freiman called the contents of the Web site "propaganda against an entire people using a carefully thought out rhetorical structure. "Its entire purpose is to create the picture and emotions of hatred and contempt." Neither Mr. Zundel nor his lawyers attended the hearing. However, lawyer Barbara Kulaszka sent a letter to the Human Rights Tribunal saying Mr. Zundel now lives in the United States with his wife, Ingrid Rimland. "Unfortunately, the Canadian 'brain drain' continues unabated," she wrote. The case against Mr. Zundel is also moot because the Web site is operated >from the United States and there can be no violation of Section 13 of the Canadian Human Rights Act, wrote Ms. Kulaszka. Mr. Freiman said the tribunal does have jurisdiction because people are able to access the Web site in Canada. During a break in the proceedings, a shouting match broke out in the hallway between members of the Jewish community and supporters of Mr. Zundel after Paul Fromm, of the Canadian Association for Free Expression, said a "privileged minority" was behind the efforts to shut down the Web site. "We're trying to protect the Internet and protect maximum freedom of speech in Canada against the goose-steppers who want to take us back to the Inquisition," said Mr. Fromm, who in 1997 was fired from his job as a high school teacher in Peel Region for his association with white supremacist and anti-Semitic organizations. Mr. Zundel was convicted in Toronto in 1985 of distributing hate literature in a book that claimed the mass extermination of Jews in Germany during the Second World War never occurred. His conviction was overturned on constitutional grounds. He was born in Germany and entered Canada as a permanent resident in 1958. He applied to become a Canadian citizen in 1993, but was turned down. A report by the Minister of Citizenship and Immigration labelled Mr. Zundel a threat to national security. That report started a review by the Security Intelligence Review Committee, which ultimately contributed to the rejection of Mr. Zundel's citizenship bid. He appealed to the Supreme Court of Canada, but was turned down in December. Final arguments in the human rights hearing are expected to be completed today. ========================================= I doesn't matter whether Zundel spouts hate or what. What matters is freedom of speech. Only Zionists are engaged in trying to suppress free speech. At the same time, Jewish owned media are giving the American people a false notion of what is going on in Israel to the benefit of the Zionists. RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:45 EST 2001 Article: 258667 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news3.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9D9CE3.BF80324F@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,alt.revisionism,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In Germany Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 58 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 18:50:44 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.206.62 X-Trace: news3.atl 983407737 208.63.206.62 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:48:57 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:48:57 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174534 soc.culture.israel:327589 soc.culture.usa:602604 alt.revisionism:869546 soc.culture.canada:258667 soc.culture.british:552034 Finkelstein's Holocaust Book Sells 50,000 Copies In 2 Weeks In Germany By Tony Paterson, in Berlin http://www.telegraph.co.uk London Daily telegraph | February 18, 2001 A book accusing American Jews of using the Nazi Holocaust to blackmail Europe into making huge "exploitative" compensation payments has sold more than 50,000 copies in Germany following its publication here two weeks ago. The Holocaust Industry by Norman Finkelstein, a Jew whose parents were Holocaust survivors, prompted a furious debate following its publication in English last summer when critics in America and Britain dismissed it as "disgusting". A German version of the book has caused far greater outrage. Finkelstein believes that American Jews with the backing of Israel have set up a "Holocaust industry" to exploit Germany financially. Germany's Jewish leaders have called for the book to be banned while the German far-Right and neo-Nazi publications have welcomed the work as "proof" of a world-wide Jewish conspiracy against Germany. Finkelstein's promotional tour of Germany has attracted large audiences. A launch of his book at Berlin's Urania theatre was attended by more than 1,000 people. The weekly magazine Der Spiegel said: "Germany is in the grip of Holocaust madness. Finkelstein is being taken seriously. What he says corresponds with what many who do not know the facts think." In an interview, Finkelstein declared that "the Holocaust is a political weapon. Germans have legitimate reasons to defend themselves against this abuse". Finkelstein, who describes himself as a Jewish atheist and Left-wing anti-Zionist who supports the Palestinian cause, has been ostracised by the American Jewish community for his views. Publication of his book coincided with an opinion poll that showed that 65 per cent of Germans totally or partially agreed with Finkelstein's assertion that "Jewish organisations make exaggerated compensation demands on Germany to enrich themselves". From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:45 EST 2001 Article: 258669 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!feed.textport.net!newsfeed.stanford.edu!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeed.atl.bellsouth.net.MISMATCH!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9DAAFC.C9ED2BDB@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.lebanon,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada Subject: WJC trying to stifle Holocaust meeting in Lebanon Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 55 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:50:52 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.103 X-Trace: news1.atl 983411353 208.63.207.103 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:49:13 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:49:13 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174539 soc.culture.lebanon:144363 soc.culture.usa:602621 soc.culture.canada:258669 NEW YORK, Feb 22 (Reuters) - The World Jewish Congress called on Thursday for Lebanon to block what the group said was an anti-Semitic Holocaust meeting funded by Iran that will be held in Beirut next month. Lord Greville Janner, the WJC vice president, wrote to Swedish Prime Minister Goran Persson on Feb. 21, asking him to "use your good offices to call on the Lebanese government not to permit this polemic, anti-Semitic and hate-inspired conference to be held in their capital." Elan Steinberg, the WJC executive director who gave Janner's letter to Reuters, said the Jewish advocacy group appealed to Persson because his country currently holds the European Union's rotating presidency. He said Stockholm also hosted a conference last year on Holocaust education called "Combating Intolerance" that was attended by 40 nations. Marc Weber, director of the Newport Beach, California-based Institute for Historical Review, said his group was helping the Swiss organization Verite et Justice put on the conference, which is called "Revisionism and Zionism." "People in Lebanon should have the same right to attend and host a conference, the same as other people have in the United States," Weber said. According to Weber, the Verite et Justice director Jurgen Graf was sentenced by a Swiss court in July 1998 for what Weber called "Holocaust denial." Graf now lives in Tehran as the guest of scholars, according to Weber. He said said he did not know whether Iran was paying for the Beirut conference. Weber said his group did not deny the Holocaust occurred, but he said it published many works that were skeptical of what he called "the hype, hyperbole, misreporting and distortion" about the Holocaust. ((Joan Gralla, U.S. Municipal Desk, +1 212 859 1654, joan.gralla@reuters.com)) Thursday, 22 February 2001 20:10:46 ENDS [nN22293329] -------------------------------------------------- Zionists want freedom of speech for themselves, and want to deny it to others. RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:46 EST 2001 Article: 258670 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!ptdnetP!newsgate.ptd.net!newsfeed.fast.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9DAD0C.86DA25CE@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.british Subject: The Bully : MacKenzie Paine Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 277 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 19:59:40 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.103 X-Trace: news1.atl 983411882 208.63.207.103 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:58:02 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:58:02 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174541 soc.culture.canada:258670 soc.culture.usa:602623 soc.culture.british:552059 Truth Seeking Missile Circling the Globe in Defense of Truth, Justice & Freedom February 28, 2001 FIRE FIVE! The Bully MacKenzie Paine Two years ago my then 9-year-old son came home from the corner store with blood flowing down the left side of his face. A 12-year-old wielding a large, smooth rock had bashed him in the head for no reason. He did not strike back, as I had taught him not to fight. As I saw his pain and the horrible blood, however, I wondered at my own advice. As soon as I had patched him up I stormed to the bully's home, called him out into the yard and told him to keep his hands off of my son and not to ever touch him again. Soon afterwards I heard a father advise his sons to never deliver the first blow, but if attacked, to defend themselves. I have since shared this advice with my sons. And now, after reading a deluge of email and visiting numerous websites, I have an overwhelming desire to say one thing: America, it's time to defend ourselves. We are being ruthlessly attacked psychologically. Our freedoms are being denied us, our press is being censored and our most venerable institutions are being bullied into submission. We cower before a bully who takes our lunch money, then makes us beg for forgiveness, for having pointed out to him that he is a bully. Worldwide, those who dare to speak out against the bully and demand that he cease and desist are persecuted and prosecuted. This is no longer the land of the free and the home of the brave. We are a nation of psychologically maladjusted children who are grateful to give our lunch money to the bully and who demand that everyone else should do the same. Well, I say to the bully, keep your hands off my child and all other children! Members of the International Young Men's Christian Association (YMCA) spent five days in Palestine during November, 2000 and wrote a 3,000 word report on the Israelis' severe abuse of civilians in the occupied territories. Please read the report in full at: http://www.ymca.int/programs/Declarations/Palestine_ReportNov2000.htm The report calls for the 46 million YMCA and YWCA members worldwide to work within their communities to educate their friends and neighbors about the horrible crimes against humanity being perpetrated against the Palestinian people, to speak out on behalf of the Palestinians. Enter the bully. "Rabbi Abraham Cooper, associate dean of the (Simon) Wiesenthal Center, said the YMCA's report is 'a total shift, a step out of character and a very dangerous one' for the international organization. . .This is not an area they should be involved in. And if they don't [go back to Israel and tell a different side of the story] we will formally call on the international YMCA community to defund Geneva." Cooper boasted that the Wiesenthal Center has contacted YMCAs in over 20 countries urging them to demand that the "biased" report be dropped. The YMCA sought to describe for us the brutality, the misery and suffering, the intentional genocide of an entire nation, and the bully has cried foul. Today, it is not the bully's blood streaming down the faces of children, or the bully's life that has been destroyed. It is not the bully's parents who are impotent to save their children or protect them. The YMCA tried to tell the world about the bully, and now they've been censored. I say again, keep your hands off my child and all other children! MSNBC has come under attack for including in its online photo contest the stark image of the 12-year-old Palestinian boy who was gunned down in Gaza. The Brooklyn, NY Jewish Press recently stated that MSNBC is providing "ammunition" in the "escalating Cyber war." "Jewish voices have not lagged in response. A message circulated on the Internet called for people to select the photo 'Hunting Down the Shooter,' which as of last Sunday morning was in second place behind the photo of the Palestinian boy. . .Concerned readers also sent a letter of protest to the competition's organizers, saying, 'Including this photo in your contest is not only dishonest journalism but in very poor taste,' and calling on them to rethink their choice." A photo of a dead child is "dishonest?" A photo of a murdered child, killed because of his nationality and religion, is in "poor taste"?" This is the best the bully's supporters can come up with? I should think that executing children is the epitome of poor taste, and that not reporting it is the basest dishonesty. In a United Nations press release from November, 2000, we find the following: "The observer for Palestine asked the United Nations to take a decision to dispatch international forces to 'prevent the extinction' of the Palestinian people." This was a press release that was most likely published in many papers and reported on many TV news programs around the world, but I had to find it on the Internet. I am an American and cannot be allowed to have this information. I also found two photographs that seem to confirm the UN concerns for the fate of the Palestinians. One photo is of a 10-year-old little boy who was beaten to death by an Israeli settler. The other is a photo of a UN monitor holding a Palestinian baby. The baby's head had been blown off. http://www.flinet.com/~politics/action/ch-beat.htm This bully goes beyond throwing stones. This bully murders with vengeance, and my heart bleeds for the mothers and fathers who are unable to protect their children from The Bully. The International Red Cross has repeatedly spoken out on behalf of the Palestinians, issuing reports and press releases that never see the light of day in the US press. If we can't trust the YMCA, the United Nations or the International Red Cross to tell the truth, who are we left with? The Bully? In the February 22, 2001 issue of Canadian Jewish News, writer Paul Lungen reports on the eminent danger of anti-Semitism spreading to the Arab nations. "A gathering of Holocaust deniers in Lebanon is only the tip of the iceberg in the ongoing collaboration between neo-Nazi activists from the West and Muslim fundamentalists in the Arab world. . ." This translates to "A conference on Zionism and Revisionism, to be attended by an international team of scholars and historians who refuse to cower before The Bully, will be hosted in a country whose government values historical accuracy and civil rights over religion or politics." The Revisionists and the Lebanese government know who The Bully is and they, too, have said, "Hands off our children! Let them live in peace." And The Bully? So worried is Rabbi Cooper, a full-time flack for The Bully, by the threat of this gathering (to the Bully) that ". . .he has written to the Lebanese ambassador in Washington, asking that Lebanon block the conference. . ." It's not The Bully, but "Muslim fundamentalists," we're told to fear: gun toting, rag-head terrorists whose values are so base as to be sub-human, their children mere animals, best used for target practice or as punching bags. The world would be a safer place if the "fundamentalists," and the Arabs, and the Muslims would just go away. Or so The Bully has told us for more than 50 years. Yet, In an essay titled "Galilee Flowers," the supremely talented Israeli-Jewish writer, Israel Shamir, writes: "Another email comes into my laptop, this time from Gaza. An American girl, Alison Weir from San Francisco evades Israeli bullets, comforts the scared Palestinian kids, and writes: 'The problem is when you know the truth, it is far too cruel, far too diametrically opposite what we used to think and what everyone still thinks to express. The lie is too big, the repression too complete, the Palestinians' lives too horrible to write about reasonably'. Well, Alison is right. We face a huge lie, an anti-Moslem blood libel, and it is time to stop it." www.thestruggle.com America, it is time to defend our national honor, our international reputation and our own morality against The Bully. We are told that we must close our eyes and cover our ears, close our hearts and ignore our consciences, to what we are shown and what we are told by the International YMCA, the International Red Cross, the United Nations, Amnesty International, scholars, historians, our military servicemen, Arabs, and Christian clergy. It's time to wake up, to stand tall, to speak out and to tell The Bully this: Cease subverting our freedoms and corrupting our leaders for your thuggish aims. Stop polluting the minds of our children against the children of other nations. Stop bashing children's skulls in with your rifle butts or shooting their eyes out with rubber bullets. Stop blowing off the heads of babies or setting them on fire with phosphorous shells. Stop murdering their parents and bulldozing their homes. Keep your hands off our child and all other children, and don't ever touch them again! Sites The Bully hates: www.al-bushra.org www.halcyon.com/jim/ussliberty/ www.zundelsite.org www.codoh.org www.ihr.org www.russgranata.com www.adelaideinstitute.org www.vho.org From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:46 EST 2001 Article: 258672 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news1.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9DADA9.F70FB14F@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.palestine,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 64 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:02:17 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.103 X-Trace: news1.atl 983412045 208.63.207.103 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:00:45 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:00:45 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174542 soc.culture.palestine:112920 soc.culture.usa:602625 soc.culture.canada:258672 soc.culture.british:552060 THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA http://electronicIntifada.net ----------------------------------------------------- A resource for countering myth, distortion, and spin >from the Israeli media war machine ----------------------------------------------------- YOU HAVE PERMISSION TO THINK CRITICALLY Visit THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA website to understand the how the media, military, and policy authorities manipulate our thinking about the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict. Tired of biased news coverage but not sure what to do about it? THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA at http://electronicIntifada.net will equip you to challenge myth, distortion and spin in the media in an informed way that will result in positive change in media coverage of the Palestinians. CONTEXT IS ALL THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA project grew out of a series of Internet projects both in the occupied Palestinian territories and outside. THE ELECTRONIC INTIFADA aims to focus on just one aspect of the struggle, the war in the media for a representation of the Palestinian point of view. Our job is to ensure the media gives the Palestinian people the permission to narrate. The current Palestinian uprising ("Intifada") represents the second collective attempt of the Palestinian people to shake off an oppressive 34-year-old military occupation. The Israeli military occupation has been aided and abetted by misleading and complicit media coverage in the West, particularly in the USA, a country which provides massive and uncritical support to the Israeli occupation of Palestinian lands, in contravention of international law, hundreds of UN resolutions, and the Fourth Geneva Convention. THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE To learn more about the political, military, and media strategies that support the Israeli occupation, and how they are mutually reinforcing, visit http://electronicIntifada.net. Understanding the real story behind the media portrayals of developments in Israel/Palestine, you'll never see or read another news report in the same way. You can help. Join our mailing list to receive action items and notice of updates to the site by sending a blank e-mail message to eIntifada-subscribe@yahoogroups.com ----------------------------------------------------- http://electronicIntifada.net Email: info@electronicIntifada.net -------------------------- From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:46 EST 2001 Article: 258674 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!codeine.org!carpediem.fr!nerim.net!grolier!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9DB83F.EE7F4F5A@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.usa Subject: Barbara Amiel is the wife of Conrad Black Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 75 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:47:27 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.103 X-Trace: news2.atl 983414747 208.63.207.103 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:45:47 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:45:47 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174545 soc.culture.canada:258674 soc.culture.usa:602641 Subject: Barbara Amiel & Daily Telegraph should be exposed I have been told that Amiel is the wife of the Daily Telegraph publisher (or was it the editor - not sure). Well........... unless there is another Barbara Amiel aka Barbara Amiel Black ............................. she is married to CONRAD BLACK!!!!!!!! quote; Former editor of the Toronto Sun, columnist for McLeans magazine and the London Telegraph, as well as an author of several books of non-fiction, Ms. Amiel Black's malignant presence seems to be growing. She is now International Affairs Correspondent for the Southam Presses, as well as vice president of Hollinger Inc. a world wide media conglomerate owned by her husband, Mr. C. [1] [also] Barbara Amiel . Born 1940. A writer, journalist, and editor, Barbara was editor for the Toronto Sun. She has won the Edgar Allan Poe Award for best face crime book and was the "Woman of Distinction" in 1989. She is married to Conrad Black, a noted newspaper entrepreneur. """"""""a noted newspaper entrepreneur. """"""""""""""""""" Some understatement !!!!!!!!!!!!!! He is the big man at Hollingers Both the JP and the DT are owned by Hollingers. http://www.hollinger.com/ Her fiancial interest in Hollingers ; ttp://biz.yahoo.com/t/50/600.html For an insight into her opinions see http://www.conservativeforum.org/authquot.asp?ID=325 apage of quotes from her. [1] http://www.studioxx.org/FemmesBranchees/BYEBYE2.html . I think this answers the question!!!!!!!!!!! Best wishes , Grayham Hollinger Inc./ Southam Inc. - Due to recent acquisitions, Hollinger Inc. now includes Southam Newspapers, Sterling Newspapers, Unimedia, Armadale Company and the Burgoyne Group. With 60 daily newpapers, Hollinger/Southam represent the largest publishing company in Canada. ============================================== And why should anyone care? Writing as Barbara Amiel, she has penned articles in their paper and MacLean's magazine. The articles are rote propaganda of the Zionist tripe sort. Remember, you can't tell the players without a program. RLA From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Fri Mar 9 16:09:47 EST 2001 Article: 258677 of soc.culture.canada Path: hub.org!hub.org!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.rcn.net!rcn!newsfeed.atl!news2.atl.POSTED!not-for-mail Message-ID: <3A9DB9F0.B502403@bellsouth.net> From: Roger Alexander X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; U) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: talk.politics.mideast,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.usa,soc.culture.canada,soc.culture.british Subject: Racist Israeli Pigs Terrorize marketers and destroy E. Jerusalem market Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lines: 93 Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 20:54:40 -0600 NNTP-Posting-Host: 208.63.207.103 X-Trace: news2.atl 983415180 208.63.207.103 (Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:53:00 EST) NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 28 Feb 2001 21:53:00 EST Xref: hub.org talk.politics.mideast:174549 soc.culture.israel:327594 soc.culture.usa:602647 soc.culture.canada:258677 soc.culture.british:552076 Bastards! RLA Police Raid Damascus Gate Market East Jerusalem 28 February 2001 It is 1:30 in the morning here, i am writing from a hostel across the street from Bab al-Amoud, or Damascus Gate. When i disembarked from a van tonight in front of the market that is situated outside the Gate, i found myself witness to a very shocking scene. It was clear something was wrong even before the van pulled over, because there were many people sitting on the grass where part of the market had stood earlier today, as if they were having a picnic. On the curb was a large - and i mean container-size - truck with a bulldozer type scoop that was crushing and picking up trash from an enormous pile on the lawn. Clearly everyone was watching it, but what made it obvious this was not just a better alternative to tv were the large numbers of police and soldiers present, some of whom were even involved in the debris removal. i was fortunate to have digital audio and camera equipment with me, so if i can get the sound downloaded you'll be able to get a fairly sensurround report of this on indymedia tomorrow. As has been my experience throughout the past month here, people in the market were extremely willing to talk about what was happening and why it was happening. Although a tv camera finally showed up around midnight, i was actually the only person there documenting the raid. It was for me one of these moments when i could think of no other way to describe the police except as pigs. This was the third time i've had the military get angry about my taking pictures, though tonight i was actually chased by a stick-wielding strongman because i took a flash photo of the police commander of the Old City, who was chirping away merrily among a group of soldiers and cops. There was no official Palestinian presence to challenge the raid, no record-keeping of damages incurred by the Palestinians - yet another demonstration of the lawlessness here by which every form of harassment is justified as a "security measure" and the people who are being victimized have no recognized means to challenge what is being done to them. To summarize what has occurred: Around 9:30 p.m. the military and police arrived with three large trucks and began tearing apart the market. They tossed out and destroyed everything: food, tables, stall coverings, baskets, chairs, and merchandise. Most of the people present were men, along with a few older women whom i was told sell vegetables, trying to salvage their things. There were police there not in uniform who were doing most of the strip-down work. Walkie-talkie cops were everywhere. Old men sat on the grass drinking tea and watching their livelihoods be transformed into unrecognizable garbage. As one young man told me, to try and stop them meant being arrested and possibly stay in jail for weeks or months. The Eid al-Adha begins on Monday, so the market was very busy today, it is a good time for business and the Israelis obviously didn't time the raid ignorant of this fact. One person i interviewed said this happens every few months, without any warning; another expanded on this, adding that they rotate the Old City forces every six months, and having recently done this, it is important to reestablish a relationship with the marketers that reminds them who is in control of their lives. Everyone i spoke with, in both languages, assured me this only happens because they are Arabs, offering detailed comparisons to how the market in West Jerusalem is maintained and respected, which is Jewish. Whether one agrees with this assessment or not, this is how the people living under occupation feel, and it is therefore extremely important to repeat. The perception of collective, racist-based punishment has everything to do with the spontaneity of the current intifada, and likewise with why Palestinians are determined to not run away with their tails between their legs. Many of us expected Sharon's victory to cause an escalation in the violence here, and the Israelis have gotten great media mileage from a bus driver who killed some soldiers. What is lacking continuously in the mainstream reporting and Israeli analyses is the extent to which the Israelis themselves are provoking violence and increasing anger towards them. The economic problems in East Jerusalem are extensive and filter through the society in subtle as well as not so subtle ways. Thousands of people outside the city depend on its commercial activities for their survival here. There are no Jews working in the Damascus Market i saw beaten to the ground this evening. It doesn't take a genius to figure this one out. The Global Network of Arab Activists (GNAA) is a democratic forum for all activists who strive to promote Arab culture and advance the civil and human rights of all Arab peoples. Unless indicated otherwise, all statements published on this forum represent the views of their authors and not necessarily those of GNAA. To subscribe to GNAA, send a blank message to GNAA-subscribe@yahoogroups.com. To unsubscribe, send the message to GNAA-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com. Inquiries may be directed to GNAA-SC@yahoogroups.com. Members may view the guidelines of this forum anytime at http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GNAA/message/3543?&start=3514 _________________________________________________________________

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