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From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:29 EST 2001
Article: 521243 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: Roger Alexander 
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Subject: Re: "I Have a Lie" - Revised
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"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3A61DF23.D661D243@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
> >
> >
> >"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:
> >
> >> In article <3A5F99D8.92EE6CF5@bellsouth.net>,
> >> Roger Alexander   wrote:
> >>
> >> [...]
> >>
> >> >I have no problem answering that.  First of all, it isn't Jews as Jews who do
> >> >this.
> >> >It is Zionists and their sympathizers who are responsible.  For many years I
> >>
> >> Ah, yes, the old "It ain't the Juice I hate, just dem naughty
> >> Zionists..."
> >>
> >> Tell us, Racist Alexander, what percentage of Jews are Zionists?
> >>
> >
> >I am not a racist, McVay, but I think you are.
> >As to your question, you might address it to the people who pay you,
> >B'nai Brith.  I would guess they have stats.
>
> Evasion noted, Mr. Alexander.
>
> It was you, however, who said, and I quote:
>
>     "First of all, it isn't Jews as Jews who do this.
>     It is Zionists and their sympathizers who are responsible."
>
> Your statement demonstrates that you make a clear distinction bewteen
> "Jews" and "Zionists."
>
> Since it is obvious that this distinction exists, you should find it
> quite simple to deal with the question at hand.
>
> How many Jews are Zionists, Mr. Alexander?
> How many Zionists are Jews?
>
> Don't run off, tell us what YOU believe the ratio to be.
>
> I'll wait.

I don't know.  I do think you might have some stats.
Why don't you tell the NG?
RLA



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:29 EST 2001
Article: 521246 of soc.culture.jewish
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Subject: Re: "I Have a Lie" - Revised
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"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article ,
>  <$kr1pt_k177y@salmahayeksknockers.edu> wrote:
> >In can.general Kenneth McVay, OBC  wrote:
> >
> >> Evasion noted, Mr. Alexander.
> >
> >Does his inability to give numeric details invalidate his claim that there
> >is a distinction between Jews and Zionists?
>
> Making the distinction has nothing to do with it. I want to know what
> percentage of Jews are Zionists in Mr. Alexander's mind. He very
> clearly suggests there's a difference, and I would like him to explain
> what he thinks that difference is.
>

Since I do not know the answer, and the answer itself would vary depending
on the criteria used to define Zionist, I do not believe I am required to answer.


> >How does his inability to answer a completely ridiculous statistical question
> >invalidate his claim that there is a differentiation between Jews and
> >Zionists?
>
> Anti-Jewish extremists on the net (and everywhere else, in my
> experience) often use "Zionist" as a way of concealing overt racism.
> One Canadian nazi, a representative of The National Alliance in
> Canada, once demonstrated this when he said
>
> "I do not hate Jews, only Zionists," much like Mr. Alexander. Although
> it took nearly 6 months to get him to respond to the same question I
> have put to Mr. Alexander, his answer, when it finally came out, was
> "Almost all Jews are Zionists..."
>

Although I do not have a right to a reasoned answer, I would guess the number
of Jews who would call themselves Zionists is much smaller than "almost all".
American Jews are more or less assimilated, and intermarry with non Jews more than

half the time, so one approach to an answer with regard to them would probably be
less than half, perhaps much less, although that is mere speculation.

> "It's not the Jews, it's the Zionists, who....[pick a crime]," he was
> expressing his hatred for Jews in language that he thought would
> conceal his racism.
>

Well, McVay, I dont' even hate Zionists, although there are a particular few like
Ariel Sharon whom I despise.  I hate what they do.  Following a policy of
murder and overt coercion like the policy they have followed is wrong.
Even an apologist like you should understand that.  For one thing, I am too old
to hate.  For another I was brought up in the Methodist church.


> Mr. Alexander surely must have some Idea how many Jews are Zionists,
> as he seems able to differentiate between them, and blame one while
> not blaming the other. I am not remotely interested in the actual
> figure - I want Mr. Alexander's guestimate.
>
> Are 25% of all Jews Zionists in his mind?
> 50%?
> 75%?
> Or, like the Canadian example cited, would he say that 99% of all Jews
> were Zionists?
>

RLA

> --
>
>      "Denial of Science & The Science of Denial"
>           The Techniques of Holocaust Denial
>   http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial



From rlalexNOSPAM@bellsouth.net Tue Mar  6 16:02:29 EST 2001
Article: 521269 of soc.culture.jewish
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From: Roger Alexander 
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I find Kenneth McVay an unlikely source of moral instruction.
RLA

"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:

> In article <3A624817.28A2A112@bellsouth.net>,
> Roger Alexander   wrote:
>
> >"Kenneth McVay, OBC" wrote:
> >
> >> In article ,
> >>  <$kr1pt_k177y@salmahayeksknockers.edu> wrote:
> >> >In can.general Kenneth McVay, OBC  wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> Evasion noted, Mr. Alexander.
> >> >
> >> >Does his inability to give numeric details invalidate his claim that there
> >> >is a distinction between Jews and Zionists?
> >>
> >> Making the distinction has nothing to do with it. I want to know what
> >> percentage of Jews are Zionists in Mr. Alexander's mind. He very
> >> clearly suggests there's a difference, and I would like him to explain
> >> what he thinks that difference is.
>
> >Since I do not know the answer, and the answer itself would vary depending
> >on the criteria used to define Zionist, I do not believe I am required
> >to answer.
>
> Mr. Alexander is not required to answer in any event. If, however, he
> does not know the answer, how then does he blame "Zionists" and not
> "Jews"?
>
> I would define "Zionist" as someone who supports the existence of the
> State of Israel. I don't know how Mr. Alexander might define it.
>
> It would appear that he cannot tell one from the other.
>
> >> Anti-Jewish extremists on the net (and everywhere else, in my
> >> experience) often use "Zionist" as a way of concealing overt racism.
> >> One Canadian nazi, a representative of The National Alliance in
> >> Canada, once demonstrated this when he said
> >>
> >> "I do not hate Jews, only Zionists," much like Mr. Alexander. Although
> >> it took nearly 6 months to get him to respond to the same question I
> >> have put to Mr. Alexander, his answer, when it finally came out, was
> >> "Almost all Jews are Zionists..."
>
> >Although I do not have a right to a reasoned answer, I would guess the number
> >of Jews who would call themselves Zionists is much smaller than "almost all".
> >American Jews are more or less assimilated, and intermarry with non Jews
> >more than
> >
> >half the time, so one approach to an answer with regard to them would
> >probably be
> >less than half, perhaps much less, although that is mere speculation.
> >
> >> "It's not the Jews, it's the Zionists, who....[pick a crime]," he was
> >> expressing his hatred for Jews in language that he thought would
> >> conceal his racism.
> >>
> >
> >Well, McVay, I dont' even hate Zionists, although there are a particular
> >few like
> >Ariel Sharon whom I despise.  I hate what they do.  Following a policy of
> >murder and overt coercion like the policy they have followed is wrong.
>
> But Mr. Alexander seems to belive that a policy of murder and overt
> coercion on the part of non-Zionists is perfectly all right. That is,
> if a Palestinian blows up a school bus full of children, Mr. Alexander
> does not seem to object.
>
> If an Arab blows up an embassy, and murders Americans, does Mr.
> Alexander object? Does he post articles condemning such a policy of
> murder and coercion?
>
> >Even an apologist like you should understand that.  For one thing, I am too old
> >to hate.  For another I was brought up in the Methodist church.
>
> Mr. Alexander might consider returning to his roots.
>
> --
>
>      "Denial of Science & The Science of Denial"
>           The Techniques of Holocaust Denial
>   http://www.nizkor.org/features/techniques-of-denial



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