From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May  4 22:41:39 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 5 May 96 2:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <831261783$3140@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Project Worst Nightmare? What?
Lines: 65


In article <831253692$2738@atype.com>, raric@aol.com (Raric) writes:

>    First of all, The reason the press has a difficult time
>distinguishing between Freemen, Nazis, militias, skinheads, Christian
>Idenity, patriots, conservative Christians, etc, is because ALL of them
>hold to a number of beliefs that are sometimes similar, sometimes exactly
>alike.

Wrong, Raric, dead wrong.  The only reason you might believe this is
because either you believe the gross slurs committed upon us by the media,
or you wish to delude yourself into thinking that we are all alike because
it makes it easier for you to deal with us.  In either case you have once
again proven that you know next to nothing about the movement.



> The list of common shared beliefs among these groups are too long
>to list. The whole idea of a one-world government conspiracy ala pat
>robertson , for instance, can be traced to the anti-semitic forgery "The
>Protocols of the Learned Eders of Zion.

hmm, this must be the result of a public school education.  First of all,
since you're obviously new here, NONE of the regulars on this group
support the ideas espoused in the protocols...if you'd been lurking a week
or so ago, you would have seen the revulsion expressed when the white
supremacists spammed the group with an ad for that particular piece of
nonsense.  Secondly, your prejudice against Christians is duly noted. 
While I, for one cannot comment on what Pat Robertson might have said,
since I don't pay attention to him, the fear of oligarich fascism is both
real and based on factual evidence.  Just because you are unaware of such
doe not negate it's existance.


> "Hey everyone I'm a
>racist tryoing to overthrow teh government and kill non-whites. I just
>wanted to let you know so you would have an accurate count of how many of
>us arae here." Use your brain.

Now this sounds more than a bit paranoid.  As I've mentioned previously,
we filter racists and antisemites out just as soon as we discover
them...usually when they're trying to join.  Since we support the
Constitution, that's the only right (and for that matter the only moral)
thing to do.  Son, before you start telling other people to use their
brain, you need to begin by learning to think for yourself.

>Try reading some patriot/militia literature. You won't get
>through very many books, or pamphlest or flyers without seeing something
>about sovereignty, not paying taxes or needing car registrations. C'mon,
>let's be honest. THAT's the basis of many patriot beliefs. 

LOL!  Okay, that it explains it! look kid, I'm sure you made some klan
type *very* happy by buying all of whatever he was selling, but what
you've been reading is no more militia literature than the phone book. 
Hmm, come to think of it, Under 10USC311(b) the *phone book* is more
militia literature than that tripe you've been reading.  Patriot beliefs,
by the way are based on the writings of the Founding Fathers, the
Declaration of Independence, the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.  I'd
love to see you explain how THOSE are offensive to you...please knock
yourself out.

Next time, try actually talking to the militia, before you go wandering
off into fantasy land, eh?

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon May  6 00:19:01 PDT 1996
Article: 17448 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 6 May 96 1:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <831345483$6832@atype.com>
Subject: Re: More patriots picked off one-by-one in GA, pussies
Lines: 21


In article <831262718$3296@atype.com>, devens@uoguelph.ca (David L Evens)
writes:

>Aparently, it has some text covering explosives.  After all, the 
>propellants used in firearms ammunition are explosives.
>
>

Hi David,

technical trivia here:

the propellant (i.e. modern smokeless gunpowder) is just that - a
propellant.  It burns very rapidly, producing a lot of gas which can be
used to thrust the bullet out the front of the barrel.  It does NOT
explode.  Black powder, on the other hand, IS an explosive .

...don't you just hate it when people pick nits like this? :-)

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon May  6 00:19:02 PDT 1996
Article: 17455 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 5 May 96 23:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <831339186$6295@atype.com>
Subject: Re: If there is such a thing as equal protection of the laws
Lines: 18


In article <831335622$6034@atype.com>, anonymous-remailer@shell.portal.com
writes:

>
>If the DAMNED  ** PRIVATE CORPORATION OWNED FEDERAL RESERVE IS EXEMPT,
THEN
>SO IS EVERYBODY ELSE.  ***

not unless 'everybody else' is *specifically* mentioned in the law as
being exempt.  


Would somebody PLEASE give this guy his medication, cheez.

Arlin




From ahabiz@aol.com Mon May  6 00:19:03 PDT 1996
Article: 17471 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 6 May 96 2:03:37 GMT
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Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 21


In article <831343703$6774@atype.com>, horseman@indirect.com (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:
>[stuff about Pastor Peters and the Identity movement scragged for space]
>: Anti-Defamation League. [Special Report] Paranoia as Patriotism:
>: Far-Right Influences on the Militia Movement. 1995.
>
>I note that NOTHING of what was printed here had anything to do with the 
>Militia movement...yet it's held up by the ADL as being "influential". 
>Uh, yeah. And little green men from Mars stole my pickup truck. Sure
thing.

Scott,

One of the reasons the adl keeps claiming this stuff is that the
supremacists, including members of the identity movement keep posting
their nonsense here in m.a.m., and then claiming to be part of us.  Until
we drive them completely off of the newsgroup, AND keep them there, we
will not be able to convince such groups that they do not speak for us.

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon May  6 00:19:03 PDT 1996
Article: 17475 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 6 May 96 2:33:34 GMT
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Subject: Re: ALLMIN: US Militia Headquarters Announces Web Site
Lines: 17


In article <831313083$4910@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>You would be suspicious if your mother wore a red dress.  I took a look
at
>the 
>web site, and it has nothing on it that half a dozen other militia sites
>don't 
>have.

no mark, but I might be a tad suspicious if YOU wore a red dress...more to
the point, their "let us know if your unit isn't listed here" is one of
the oldest tricks in the book to elicit information from the unsuspecting.
 I still say it smells funny to me.

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:29 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 6 May 96 19:03:48 GMT
Message-ID: <831409428$10088@atype.com>
Subject: Re: What I'd Like To See
Lines: 78


In article <831399502$9586@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>>
>>Now mark, you know that is not the stated intent of the Declaration.
>>Quite plainly it was intended to serve notice that illegal acts such as
>>those committed by the government at Ruby Ridge and Waco simply will not
>>be tolerated any longer.
>
>It was a threat; it is difficult to read the document any other way.

hmm, so if I promise that I would turn you in if I saw you breaking the
law, that would also be a threat?  when does a promise become a threat?  


>>Are you then saying that the forged 'war alert' message contains the
same
>>statement?
>
>It was hardly "forged," since it is so typical of militia communications.

It was most certainly forged, and not particularly well, either.  There
were some external similarities, including a poor attempt to copy the
general style of the Declaration, but other than that there were some
glaring problems that the forgers were simply too inept to notice.

These included:
1.  Valid Militia notices generally provide a point of contact for further
information.
2.  Valid Militia notices applying outside a given unit generally indicate
*which* specific units or organizations have subscribed to the notice.
3.  Valid Militia notices do NOT compromise tactical objectives.
4.  Valid Militia notices do NOT attempt to dictate policy to
nonsubscribing parties.
5.  No valid Militia plan has ever, to my knowledge, targetted the
military.  There is no need to do so, nor would doing so be in the best
interests of the Constitution.
6.  No valid Militia plan has ever, to my knowledge, made the media a
priority target.  This would be a stupid waste of resources, as well as a
critical public relations error.
7.  There is No centralized command and control structure within the
militias with the authority to issue the types of 'orders' contained in
the forgery.

These are all things you are, or should be aware of, Mark, come on.  get
real.

>>  Is it also signed by representatives from Constitutional
>>Militias throughout a number of different geographic areas?
>
>As I said, it was anonymous.

ayep.


>>  While we're
>>at it, do you believe that the activities it advocates are within
current
>>militia capabilities?
>
>Not really; the neo-militia groups are a bunch of wacked-out yahoos who
like
>to
>play at being Rambo.  But that doesn't mean that some of them couldn't
hurt 
>some people if they were to take it seriously.

hmm, other than the obvious bigotry of that statement, the real answer to
that question is that the Militias, being defensive organizations, do not
have the level of Command and Control neccessary to coordinate or execute
the activities mentioned in the forgery, over any large geographic area.  
 Let's see, now, who took the forgery seriously:  none of the militia
people I know, none of the *non* militia people I've shown it to have
bought it for more than about 30 seconds...so let's see the fbi *claims*
they bought into it, portions of the mainstream media were fooled by it,
and, well, you, mark...can't think of anybody else...



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:31 PDT 1996
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Date: Mon, 6 May 96 15:18:15 GMT
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Subject: Re: What I'd Like To See
Lines: 22


In article <831390496$8493@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Henry Bibee has conveniently reposted his threat, so that everybody can
once 
>again see how the militia "will not be restrained" if the feds harm a
hair on
>the chinny-chin-chin of the Hole in the Wall gang.

Now mark, you know that is not the stated intent of the Declaration. 
Quite plainly it was intended to serve notice that illegal acts such as
those committed by the government at Ruby Ridge and Waco simply will not
be tolerated any longer.

Are you then saying that the forged 'war alert' message contains the same
statement?  Is it also signed by representatives from Constitutional
Militias throughout a number of different geographic areas?  While we're
at it, do you believe that the activities it advocates are within current
militia capabilities?  

Arlin


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Date: Mon, 6 May 96 20:48:07 GMT
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Subject: Re: What I'd Like To See
Lines: 40


In article <831412085$10230@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>>It was most certainly forged, and not particularly well, either.  There
>>were some external similarities, including a poor attempt to copy the
>>general style of the Declaration, but other than that there were some
>>glaring problems that the forgers were simply too inept to notice.
>>
>>These included:
>>1.  Valid Militia notices generally provide a point of contact for
further
>>information.
>>2.  Valid Militia notices applying outside a given unit generally
indicate
>>*which* specific units or organizations have subscribed to the notice.
>>3.  Valid Militia notices do NOT compromise tactical objectives.
>>4.  Valid Militia notices do NOT attempt to dictate policy to
>>nonsubscribing parties.
>>5.  No valid Militia plan has ever, to my knowledge, targetted the
>>military.  There is no need to do so, nor would doing so be in the best
>>interests of the Constitution.
>>6.  No valid Militia plan has ever, to my knowledge, made the media a
>>priority target.  This would be a stupid waste of resources, as well as
a
>>critical public relations error.
>>7.  There is No centralized command and control structure within the
>>militias with the authority to issue the types of 'orders' contained in
>>the forgery.
>
>I forget where the Valid Militia Notice Requirement Handbook is lodged,
but
>apparently you are the only one with access to it.

The only way someone could have failed to notice these things would be if
he were to take *everything* that had the word 'militia' in it at face
value...c'mon mark, you're supposed to be a researcher.  A major part of a
researcher's job is learning to seperate the wheat from the chaff, don't
tell me you haven't been watching for patterns in communications? 



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 7 May 96 0:33:10 GMT
Message-ID: <831429190$11630@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 16


In article <831412983$10280@atype.com>, timh@halcyon.com (Tim Hill)
writes:

>Perhaps they wonder why you claim to be a part of their militia. Hate and

>the militias are intertwined and will remain so, no matter what your 
>personal militia vision may be. You are drawing from the same cesspool.

interesting image tim, and you are right to the extent that we have a
severe PR problem on our hands, but I have seen little of the hate you and
others attribute to us among any of the militia folk I know.  Anger, yes,
frustration, certainly, but not the sort of nonsense that we are accused
of when folks smear us and the supremacists together in one breath. We
draw our people from society at large, so I don't know how you can refer
to it as a cesspool, sorry, this baffles me.  


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:34 PDT 1996
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Date: Tue, 7 May 96 0:33:16 GMT
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Subject: Re: The Complete Story of the Montana Freemen
Lines: 7


In article <831412990$10292@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

> the extremist right-wing militia movement,

ya gotta love the way he gets it all in one breath like that....


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Date: Tue, 7 May 96 6:03:17 GMT
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Subject: Re: Electoral Process???
Lines: 16


In article <831428296$11593@atype.com>, slk29@idt.liberty.com writes:

> Yet, the militia movement
>despite it's numbers is completely unable to rally any comparable
numbersdespite
>the actual numbers that the movement commands.  What is needed is a mass
>assembly that would demonstrate the extent of support for the Patriot
Movement.  What
>do you think?

Although a really neat idea in theory, I think this could very easily be
subverted by the bad guys into an incident of astronomical
proportions...sorry, but at least not until the reno/freeh travelling
barbeque show is out of the government, okay?




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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 7 May 96 6:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <831448983$12277@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Is it really possible to be too RIGHT (or, as the pathologically bigoted ...
Lines: 14


In article <831421984$11395@atype.com>, "Singapore: The Excelsior City"
 writes:

>Usually, when a liberal extremist learns of Lee Kuan Yew (LKY), who has
been
>crusading for urbane civility, decency,

OH LORD! now we're being spammed by fascists from other countries. 
Singapore, for those of you who don't know, is a virtual police state,
complete with neighborhood informers.  Hmm, anybody have an email address
for the Singapore resistance?  

Arlin H. Adams



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Posted-Date: 7 May 1996 10:51:34 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 7 May 96 15:03:07 GMT
Message-ID: <831481387$13706@atype.com>
Subject: Re: What I'd Like To See
Lines: 17


In article <831464284$12696@atype.com>, hk157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Janet
L. Littler) writes:

>Thank you, Mr. Pitcavage, for your usually illiterate reply.

Hi Janet,

mark has this problem, you see, in that he has no desire to understand why
we are here or what we are doing.  His only desire is to denigrate anyone
who doesn't agree with him.  In a way, I'm sure he must be very lonely,
surviving solely on his ego, as he does; but that's not really something
any of us can do anything about.  Please don't be surprised if he doesn't
respond coherently to your post.  His fear of, and aversion to, the real
world usually overrides everything else.

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:37 PDT 1996
Article: 17680 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 5 May 1996 10:46:08 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 5 May 96 14:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <831307683$4686@atype.com>
Subject: Re: I'm sorry
Lines: 12


In article <831271690$3743@atype.com>, mocav@aol.com (Mo10Cav) writes:

>
>I wanted to say I am sorry about saying all those negative things about 
>"threatman"
>
>

nice try mikey, but we can all read addresses here.  this wasn't even a
particularly creative forgery...careful or you're going to forget your
password again, and then where will you be?


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:38 PDT 1996
Article: 17681 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 5 May 96 14:48:14 GMT
Message-ID: <831307694$4698@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Let's Get a German Base In Israel Next!
Lines: 20


In article <831276183$4008@atype.com>, Brad Camis 
writes:

>If it's good for America, surely it must be good for Israel!   Lets get a
>Luftwafe 
>Base permanently placed in Israel Next!!!  Or are the Israelies going to
be
>the 
>enemies of our beloved peace?  Surely, the Israelies would wecome this as
>much as 
>the Americans!

uh, Brad, the reason the Germans want space here is because their aircraft
don't have enough open room to safely practice supersonic maneuvering in
Germany - the entire country is too densely populated.  Now why in the
world would they want to put a base in Israel, which is smaller and more
densely populated than Germany?

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:38 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 8 May 96 8:48:32 GMT
Message-ID: <831545312$17182@atype.com>
Subject: Re: We _have been_ invaded.
Lines: 15


In article <831519185$15949@atype.com>, klaatu  writes:

>he suburbs of Washington DC are
>no longer in the control of the duly-constituted authorities. Control is
in
>the hands of immigrant populations which have been gathering rapidly for
the
>last two years. 

*whew* klaatu, man, whatever you're doing, you need to lay off it for a
while...

Arlin Adams
who just happens to live in a multicultural suburb of D.C.  


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:39 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 8 May 96 8:48:39 GMT
Message-ID: <831545319$17194@atype.com>
Subject: Re: We _have been_ invaded.
Lines: 15


In article <831519185$15949@atype.com>, klaatu  writes:

>he suburbs of Washington DC are
>no longer in the control of the duly-constituted authorities. Control is
in
>the hands of immigrant populations which have been gathering rapidly for
the
>last two years. 

*whew* klaatu, man, whatever you're doing, you need to lay off it for a
while...

Arlin Adams
who just happens to live in a multicultural suburb of D.C.  


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:40 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 7 May 96 18:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <831493084$14787@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 91


In a message dated 96-05-07 12:48:21 EDT, you write:

> the conspiratorial theories about a one-world government are CLEARLY
>tracable to anti-Semitic ideas about Jews trying to control the world. I
>can offer you documentation proving that when issues such as gun control,
>government law abuses, and states' rights inflamed teh anger of many
>Americans, racists and anti-semites infiltrated conservative ranks and
>began plantiung seeds about this New World Order thing in order to get
>basic conservatives and moderates to hate the government and rebel. This


I don't think you understood my historical comments in my previous
message.
Let me try to be a bit clearer this time around:  You are making the same
mistake made by many who lack a familiarity with historical matters.  If,
in
point of fact, you *had* taken a look at the revolutionary war era, you
would
have seen that the issues reflected in the militia movement today were
issues
back then too.  Everything from local control to the legality of militias
-
The Green Mountain Boys, considered heroes now, were an UNAUTHORIZED
militia
unit formed to defend what is now Vermont from the encroachment of a
greedy
New York government.  In the same manner, if you had any depth of
knowledge
concerning the roots of European antisemitism, you would realize that the
'protocols' were originally written to inflame the less well educated
European lower middle and working classes.  Because of this, there are
some
similarities between topics addressed in the 'protocols' and the concerns
of
modern day populists.  Your lack of historical knowledge in these areas
has
seriously damaged your ability to understand the current situation.


>all fits into the Christian Identity desire to overthrow the Jewish pawn
>government. 

you also appear to know very little about the psychology of demagogues. 
As
with all such, the ci types merely chose a convenient target external to
their own situation, on which they blame all of their ills.  Since they
are
also anti-semites, the ci paint the government as a 'Jewish' organization.
 I
have yet to meet any militia members who actually buy into this nonsense. 
In
point of fact, if you knew anything about ci, you'd realize that they were
initially formed as an offshoot of the 'aryan nations' which in turn
evolved
various street gang members who found themselves doing hard time in
various
state and federal penitentiaries in the western U.S.

You have totally ignored my rebuttal, based on personal experiences inside
the fe(de)ral government.  You have totally ignored the documented cases
of
repeated governmental abuses of the populace.  You have ignored the
historical record.  You have, in point of fact, totally ignored all
factual
evidence which doesn't fit your theory.  


>Much of it started with the 1980s farm crisis , when the Posse
>Comitatus began spreading their hate and bizarre legal and conspiratorial
>theories throughout the heartland. This is irrefutabley documentable.

LOL! only if you don't bother to go back any further than 1980...the Posse
was well established in the mid-west by the late 1970's.  I know this
because
I, personally, was involved in an armed confrontation with them at that
time.
They, as with all of their ilk, were a bunch of uneducated bullies who cut
and ran at the first indication that they were about to have to put up or
shut up.

I find it rather sad, although I guess one might say it was predictable,
that
someone like you should try to make a fast buck off of the Patriot/Militia
movement.  Your research is at best, incomplete, and at worst
intentionally
shoddy.  Doubtless you are not the only one to practice this myopic
methodology; but don't go looking for justification around here, because I
guarantee that you will NOT find it.  

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:41 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 5 May 96 2:48:19 GMT
Message-ID: <831264499$3493@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Dees is a patriot!
Lines: 22


Yo, Frankie,

>   My tongue nearly tore through the inside of my cheeck when 
>I wrote that :)

*whew* for a minute there I was beginning to think I'd just subscribed to
the twilight zone version of m.a.m....


>Dees has repeated again and again that it's only a *few* in
>the  militias who are potential terrorists.And he's repeatedly
>stated that there's 'alot of decent,honest citizens' in the
>militias.

His words say that, but his reactions to *any* militia members indicate
otherwise - did you see him on nightline a week or so ago?  Also after
giving disclaimers he then proceeds to say "the militias " this, and "the
militias" that, without being specific, and yes that does look more than a
bit like a smear campaign from here.  

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:42 PDT 1996
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Posted-Date: 8 May 1996 11:41:26 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 8 May 96 15:48:25 GMT
Message-ID: <831570505$18077@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Let's Get a German Base In Israel Next!
Lines: 45


In article <831538984$16649@atype.com>, Brad Camis 
writes:

>
> If there is not enough space for the Germans to fly their
>aircraft over germany then:
>A.  Why is there enough space over Germany for the US to fly better and
>faster airplanes over Germany?

*slowly*.  They are restricted by the status of forces agreement to the
same general practices as their host country.  In other words the USAF
aren't allowed to practice high speed low altitude maneuvers over Germany
either.  [now before anybody starts sending me war stories about being
dusted by a fighter, I *KNOW they still do this sometimes, but it really
is a major no-no].

>B.  How do you propose the Germans intend to use their aicraft, if not to
>defend the skies over Germany?

You misinterpreted what I wrote.  What I said was that they are not
allowed, by their federal laws, to practice certain types of flying over
their home country due to problems with high population densities.  They
are most especially not allowed to practice high speed nap-of-the-earth
(NOE) type maneuvers which are what they would most likely be using in a
war time situation.  Dumb law? you bet!  But all THAT proves is that the
german bureaucrats aren't any smarter than their American counterparts.

>C.  If the Israelies have even less airspace to fly over Israel, how are
they
>able to manage to practice and fly their US supplied, (and faster than
the Germans) 
>aircraft over Israel?  

Combat Air Patrols.  Oh, yeah, and they send *their* folks to the US for
training as well.


>Dah? Can you explain this, or do you want someone to tell you about the
>rabbits again instead?

you did ?what? with a rabbit??!!

Arlin



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:43 PDT 1996
Article: 17784 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 8 May 96 15:48:19 GMT
Message-ID: <831570499$18065@atype.com>
Subject: Re: What I'd Like To See
Lines: 12


In article <831522812$16141@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>>  Case in point: the coverup in the murder of Vincent Foster.
>
>A cover-up that exists solely in the minds of conspiracy nuts.
>
>

hmm, and the special counsel for the Whitewater investigation...or doesn't
he count?


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:44 PDT 1996
Article: 17854 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 14:48:21 GMT
Message-ID: <831653301$22276@atype.com>
Subject: Re: In Defence of Mark T Pitsavage
Lines: 28


In article <831615493$20320@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>>He's a disingenuous  statist lackey collecting names for later
prosecution
>>by his masters.  Don't let the scholarly guise fool you-- he's just a
>>troll and a snitch-- and should be despised as such.   -- Mike
Vanderboegh
>
>
>You're so cute when you go in for the personal attack.  I'll remind you, 
>however, that it was your boss, not mine, who was revealed to be
collecting 
>names for his masters.  In the minds of many here, you are probably no
more 
>"trustworthy" than I am.

Now here, folks, we have an excellent example of mark practicing one
aspect of the 'big lie' technique.  In this case, he has taken the
compromise of the Tri-States National Communication Center, and twisted it
so as to *attempt* to make it appear that the NCS was actually running
things.  Of course it wasn't, but that's not the point.  By writing in
this way, he attempts to get the reader to ignore the facts, and cast
doubts on Mike's character.  Although he totally fails in the attempt, it
*is* interesting that he would even resort to something this blatant.




From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:45 PDT 1996
Article: 17873 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 15:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <831654184$22299@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Why Vet Newsgroups Are Being Monitored
Lines: 18


In article <831510184$15724@atype.com>, e142857@teleport.com (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

>
>BTW, could someone translate, "potentially actualize terrorist
>telegraphing"? My Newspeak dictionary doesn't have a listing
>under that phrase.

Hi Walter,

it's pseudo-psychobabble.  These guys are a couple of lefty trolls, who
get their jollies out of posting pseudointellectual pieces that get people
upset.  The best way to deal with them is to simply ignore them for a
couple of weeks...their little egoes can't stand to be ignored, so they'll
wander off in search of more fertile ground.

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:46 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 9:48:29 GMT
Message-ID: <831635309$21552@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Hey! JD11B@aol.com- Learn How To Post
Lines: 6


uh Walt?  it wasn't his fault - the #@$@# aol nntp server fritzed out
again yesterday...I guess it had something to do with going to a 'new and
improved' version of the software, or something...

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:47 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 16:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <831658684$22446@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Govt using race to distract citizens
Lines: 26


>Hello fellow revolutionaries :) ....I'm new to this group

careful Katie, the feds have already admitted to monitoring us here, and
if you keep throwing the 'r' word around like this you'll pique their
interest.

>and I was wondering if you all knew about the following incident 
>that occurred in Philadelphia...would you consider MOVE a miltia?

Yes, and to the extent that they were trying to protect their community
>from  depredations by the government, I suppose they would qualify as a
militia.  God knows the Philly cops thoughts so - it was  the cops that
dropped the bomb on them.  Their politics were a bit socialist for most of
us here, but that doesn't mean they didn't have the right to live as they
saw fit, so long as they didn't bother other folks while they were doing
so.

> Will you
>suppport MOVE survivors in their fight for justice?

You're going to have to be more specific on this - how many are left? 
what are they doing about what happened? etc.  I doubt many of us are
current on this issue - can you fill us in?

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:48 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 9 May 96 9:33:19 GMT
Message-ID: <831634399$21262@atype.com>
Subject: Re: War against the US government
Lines: 35


Y'know mikey, I just don't get it, you've been posting this stuff here for
over a year now, and every time you've gotten flamed.  There are very few
possible reasons why you continue:

1.  You achieve some sort of stimulation or gratification from either
writing this crap, or from the flame wars which ensue.  If this is the
case, I would really suggest that you need to find a better way to get
your jollies - all you do here is embarass yourself in front of the world
2.  You honestly believe that somehow, the revolution is going to start
any day now, and you want to be able to point to dejanews and claim that
you were somehow a leader.  If this is the case, perhaps you should
consider that your posts have probably made you a priority target for the
bad guys.  You have to live *through* the revolution before you lay claim
to history, and right now, I wouldn't bet a plugged nickel on the chances
of that happening.  With the number of alarms your posts must have set
off, the feds will undoubtedly be all over you like a dirty diaper, the
minute things start to happen.
3.  You are intentionally creating inflamatory posts, so that person or
persons unknown can use them to demonstrate how the militia movement is
populated by irrational people.    If this, indeed, proves to be the case,
the warm reception you seem to expect from other militia units may not, in
fact, be the reception you find waiting.
4.  You are simply a kid with a computer, who sees this all as a big
videogame.  It doesn't matter to you what is actually going on here, so
you feel you can say anything you want to, and then brag to your buddies
about your membership in the militia.  If this is the case, I doubt that
you will quit posting unless or until something does hit the fan.  Then,
of course, you are going to have to spend quite a while convincing the
feds and their minions that you were just kidding...if you can, and if
they let you live long enough to plead your case.

So, which is it?

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:49 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 9:33:26 GMT
Message-ID: <831634406$21274@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Is it wrong to be REALLY RIGHT (or, as the pathologically bigoted "libera...
Lines: 3


w-e-l-l he may not be bright, and he may not make sense, but he sure
doesn't give up easily, now does he?


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:50 PDT 1996
Article: 17908 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 16:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <831660484$22504@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Remember the Children (OK City)
Lines: 11


In article <831651486$22125@atype.com>, Jim Murray 
writes:

>There was not mention of it on the local TV news that night either.

uh, Jim, you were expecting the PC tv stations here in DC to cover
something critical of the fedgov?  heck, anything that doesn't fit their
political agenda, doesn't even get noticed.

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:50 PDT 1996
Article: 17924 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 2:33:12 GMT
Message-ID: <831695592$23896@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Militia and "Nuclear Umbrella"
Lines: 42


In article <831679385$23469@atype.com>, rivero@accessone.com (Michael
Rivero) writes:
>  Never mind some plumber's attempt at a pipe bomb. A spray perfume
bottle
>at the closing cerimonies of the Olympics would greatly reduce the entire

>world's population problem.

Gentlemen, if I might intrude for a moment?  There are two primary
problems with using any sort of biological agent.  The first is in finding
a suitable 'vector'.  Unlike chemical agents, many of which can be spread
through the air, most bio agents require a vector.   A vector is something
which will carry the virus/bacteria/ whatever in such a way as to spread
it throughout the target population.  Vectors have traditionally been the
bane of the biowar set.  Most effective:  Black Plague - the rats carried
the fleas that carried the virus.  The rats went everywhere, took the
fleas with them, and boom, the plague developed.  Least effective:  the
Japanese biowar labs apparently developed a fairly lethal viral strain
during WWII, but the problem was that the vector it was developed for was
bird feathers.  Since very few birds bothered to hang around a
battlefield, the only way to deliver the vector in quantity was to have
aircraft fly low and slow over enemy positions, while the feathers were
shovelled out...needless to say this was NOT a popular concept with the
Japanese Air Force.  
The second major problem is control.  Obviously an attacker wants the
enemy to suffer from a weapon, while leaving friendlies (relatively)
untouched (although this might not be true if one was dealing with a
suicide cult).  Bioweapons are notoriously indescriminate, so it stands to
reason that an attacker would only use a bio weapon for which they already
had a vaccine developed.  Since people are aware of this, if some sort of
rare plague were to develop world wide, *except* for in one country, where
they *suddenly* discovered a *rare* vaccine that prevented it, w-e-l-l I
know what *I* would think under the circumstances. 

In other words, other than a suicide cult, I can foresee few possible
applications of biowarfare agents in the near future.

Just my 2 cents worth
Arlin




From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:51 PDT 1996
Article: 17951 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 12:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <831729784$25288@atype.com>
Subject: Re: "Freemen" holding child hostages ???????
Lines: 39


Hi Gary,

I'm not sure you are seeing this situation in the same terms as the
participants.

>I strongly suspect the women who died at Waco had 'BRAINS' also, but
>that certainly doesn't mean they are being used.

In the case of the Davidians, they had no reason to expect the government
to attempt an all out attack on their compound, especially one which would
lead to their deaths - the world was watching, the mistake the Davidians
made was in assuming the world would do something to stop the
blackshirts...now THAT was a fatal error.


>My concern is the CHILDREN, why do these 'types' have to surround
>themselves with children, knowing FULL WELL what can or might take
>place?

uh, Gary, who are these 'types', you are talking about?  People with
families?  Single parents?  or just people who disagree with the
government?  I'm not clear on what you mean here.


>If the FBI/BATF agents brought their children to the standoff scene 
>ala the Davidians at Waco or the Freemen/Freewomen in Montana this
>newsgroup would just explode about charges of Child hostages, yet
>not much gets mentioned about it when the Davidians or Freemen/Women
>practice it.

The fbi/batf didn't/ don't *live* there Gary, the Davidians *did* live in
the Mt. Carmel compound, even as the FM do live on the ranch.  I realize
the media tend to make this all appear arbitrary and capricious, but that
certainly was and is not the case.  Hmm, or is your point that dissidents
shouldn't be allowed to keep their children?  that seems to be where
you're going with this argument.

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 11:18:52 PDT 1996
Article: 17952 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 12:03:12 GMT
Message-ID: <831729792$25300@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Genital Exam of 59 12 Yr. old Girls by GOALS 2000-->>
Lines: 18


In article <831698285$23984@atype.com>,
"medintz@falcon.cc.ukans.edu"@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU writes:

>Does anybody here besides myself and Arlin have the vaguest idea what OBE
>is? Besides, dumbing down American schools and fondling sixth-graders
>are two entirely different things.

oh, one or two of the folks do, I'm sure.  The actual objection here,
Mike, is to federally mandated controls. For a lot of folks, though, OBE
and Goals 2000 have become symbols of these attempts at federal control. 
In all honesty, OBE was an excellent idea subsequently politicized (and
thus ruined) from the left by the NEA; while my personal impression of G2K
is that it's a totally unworkable piece of paper pushed through to make
the politicians *look* like they were doing something.

Just my 2 cents worth
Arlin


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Article cancelled by moderator.


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From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 18:06:28 PDT 1996
Article: 17970 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 18:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <831753184$25839@atype.com>
Subject: Re: The Messiah...David Koresh?
Lines: 18


In article <831547984$17265@atype.com>, J.S.Muschell@liv.ac.uk (Mr J.S.
Muschell) writes:

>But to take up arms against your country - WHICH IS WHAT YOU ARE DOING -
is
>a very serious step, and is bordering on treason. As such, it should be 
>considered only as AN ABSOLUTE LAST RESORT.
>
>We are not there yet, and it is virtually impossible that we will ever
be.

Hi J.S.

I guess the question that comes to my mind is - at what point DO you
believe such a last resort is justified?  

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 10 18:06:30 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 9 May 96 9:48:48 GMT
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Subject: Re: Hey! JD11B@aol.com- Learn How To Post
Lines: 6


uh Walt?  it wasn't his fault - the #@$@# aol nntp server fritzed out
again yesterday...I guess it had something to do with going to a 'new and
improved' version of the software, or something...

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 09:35:11 PDT 1996
Article: 17986 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 18:18:44 GMT
Message-ID: <831752324$25780@atype.com>
Subject: Re: More patriots picked off one-by-one in GA, pussies
Lines: 18


In article <831718083$25055@atype.com>, J.S.Muschell@liv.ac.uk (Mr J.S.
Muschell) writes:

>Hold on a second here.  I've read other pro-militia posters on this
newsgroup
>who say that the militia movement is about *defense*.  What exactly are
you
>going to "prepare" for?
>
>

The time when we shall have to defend ourselves, our families and
communities against aggressors, which as we've seen in recent years, can
include certain portions of the federal government.  An adiquate defense
requires at *least* as much preparation as an attack does.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 09:35:12 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 2:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <831781984$26620@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Genital Exam of 59 12 Yr. old Girls by GOALS 2000-->>
Lines: 14


In article <831752290$25762@atype.com>, e142857@teleport.com (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

[a lot of good stuff cut out to save space]

>4. Avoid telling the truth, which should be easy, as nobody in WA 
>DC has the faintist idea what it is.

ah shoot, Walt, there must be at least 4 or 5 of us...'course none of *us*
work for the federal government...hmm, maybe there's a correlation there
somewhere...:-)

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 09:35:13 PDT 1996
Article: 17992 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 2:48:11 GMT
Message-ID: <831782891$26714@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Militia Threat
Lines: 9


In article <831753192$25851@atype.com>, joe@junior.wariat.org (Joseph T.
Adams) writes:

> It can be confusing, but since we are
>all very much distinct individuals, I would ask that people *try* to
>keep us straight.  :)

yeah, just remember Joe is the one with the hat...


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 09:35:13 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 10 May 96 2:48:18 GMT
Message-ID: <831696498$23950@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Remember the Children (OK City)
Lines: 11


In article <831676684$23359@atype.com>, Jim Murray 
writes:

>Actually there was a 30 second spot on the Waco protest on 7 and cable 8,
>no coverage of an armed march though.

I stand corrected!  sorry.   I gave up on those anti-gun, liberal @#$@#$ a
while ago...

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 6:33:37 GMT
Message-ID: <831796417$27302@atype.com>
Subject: Re: "Freemen" holding child hostages ???????
Lines: 70


In article <831760383$26047@atype.com>, garyn@sun.tir.com (Gary Newberry)
writes:

> UMMMM I'm not a 'Rocket Scientist' however , "I" wouldn't expect to
>shoot at or kill anyone, much less a policeman or FBI/BATF Agent
>serving a search warrant and think I'm going to hole up and that they
>are going to just go away. I would KNOW that they are going to end the
>standoff sooner or later and root me and any followers out of my
>home/compound or whatever you want to call it by some means or method.

The correlary of this, would seem to be that you believe that the
government *does* have the right to, without provocation, shoot at you,
and attack your home using lethal force (a la the initial assault on the
Davidian compound), and that you would not resist such an assault.  Is
that a correct assessment of your position?

>'Types" refers to the mindset of those who think they can flagrantly
>break the law that most everyone else obeys and arm themselves and
>attempt to get away with it. Lots of people have Kited checks ala the
>FM, most don't them grab a gun and attempt to hold off law enfocement,

Okay, first off, nobody here is defending the FM's actions vis a vis their
rather unique ideas on capital generation.  However, what Typhanee and I
and some of the others are trying to get across to you is that  you and
thee FM are operating from  substantially different frame of reference. 
To all appearances, the FM believe the federal government to be an illegal
and immoral organization.  WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS REASONABLE TO YOU, in
order to understand *their* actions, you must understand what is
reasonable to them.  Think of this as an extreme case of multiculturalism.
 From *their* perspective they are acting in a logical manner, consistent
with their beliefs.  It is because of this cultural collision that I fear
the end for these folks will not go well at all.


>in the same vein as most religious organizations wouldn't shoot at or
>kill someone attempting to serve a search warrant.

I believe you're talking about the Davidians again?  If so, only if one
actually believes the story that the atf were attempting to serve a
warrant (which later testimony shows the atf agents didn't even bother to
take with them), would this be a rational statement.  You will be
hardpressed to find anyone on this newsgroup who believes such was the
case.  For a more balanced view of what actually occurred in the initial
government assault on the Mt. Carmel compound, you might try reading Dick
Reavis' book THE ASHES OF WACO.

>My point is 'COMMON HORSE SENSE', if YOU were in an armed standoff
>with law enfocement officials would YOU want ANY children around ?

Of course one would not intentionally wish to put children in harms way. 
However, if one is poor (as are most of the FM) and one is surrounded in
one's own home, as they are, there aren't many options left.  Not
everybody can pull out the gold card and send the kids off to Disney World
for a few weeks, you know?  As importantly, please remember that both in
the case of the FM and the case of the Davidians, the federal government
is perceived *by*the*people*involved* as being inherently evil.  Would you
choose to turn your children over to evil people, even if threatened at
gunpoint?  Again, unless you understand the culture and perspective of
these folks, there is no adiquate way to determine their motivations. 

>Did you miss the nationally syndicated political cartoon with a FM all
>dressed in his camouflage gear holding a rifle , with a child strapped
>to his chest ???

Interesting question.  I guess my reaction is yes, indeed, I did miss that
cartoon, but that's okay - my views are formed on experience, reading, and
thoughtful reflection; rather than political propaganda cartoons.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 09:37:41 PDT 1996
Article: 43745 of control
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Subject: cmsg cancel <831545284$17146@atype.com>
Control: cancel <831545284$17146@atype.com>
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Article cancelled by moderator.


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 09:37:43 PDT 1996
Article: 43814 of control
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Subject: cmsg cancel <831545319$17194@atype.com>
Control: cancel <831545319$17194@atype.com>
Date: 8 May 1996 16:05:32 GMT
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Article cancelled by moderator.


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 11:56:22 PDT 1996
Article: 18046 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (769a49cee3f07c6a159307b8faac76d4)
References: <831814396$28793@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 10:32:19 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 14:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <831825184$29014@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Militia in NYC
Lines: 9


Interesting, isn't it, how hub*r manages to censor out any discussion of
the actual facts of the case.  Of course as a nazi, facts don't mean
anything to him......

Arlin H. Adams

 



From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:07 PDT 1996
Article: 18048 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (0fa1fd24f3be597050374f294a9739a9)
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:34:50 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:48:26 GMT
Message-ID: <831804506$27843@atype.com>
Subject: Re: News! Near Total Gun Ban in Australia
Lines: 7


In article <831772083$26363@atype.com>, mlight@hpax.cup.hp.com (Mike
Light) writes:

>Sounds like an export opportunity for east-Europe and east-Asian nations.

yeah, and the prices are going to go through the roof!


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:09 PDT 1996
Article: 18049 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:34:55 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:48:32 GMT
Message-ID: <831804512$27855@atype.com>
Subject: Re: News! Near Total Gun Ban in Australia
Lines: 7


In article <831772083$26363@atype.com>, mlight@hpax.cup.hp.com (Mike
Light) writes:

>Sounds like an export opportunity for east-Europe and east-Asian nations.

yeah, and the prices are going to go through the roof!


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:10 PDT 1996
Article: 18051 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (47953ee0eb06b5075a0378ca3c4fe757)
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:03 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:48:38 GMT
Message-ID: <831804518$27867@atype.com>
Subject: Re: News! Near Total Gun Ban in Australia
Lines: 7


In article <831772083$26363@atype.com>, mlight@hpax.cup.hp.com (Mike
Light) writes:

>Sounds like an export opportunity for east-Europe and east-Asian nations.

yeah, and the prices are going to go through the roof!


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:10 PDT 1996
Article: 18052 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (db15040d4ea6d1df3cdcadbdffcb9c04)
References: <831769390$26260@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:13 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:48:53 GMT
Message-ID: <831804533$27891@atype.com>
Subject: Re: ALLMIN: US Militia Headquarters Announces Web Site
Lines: 11


In article <831769390$26260@atype.com>, terick@cybergate.net (Tom E.)
writes:

> Yeah, das right.
>Uh-huh. An if I'm lying, may lightning strike Pitcavage!  

Uh, Tom, I'm kinda ambivalent about telling mark to duck...you want to do
it?

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:11 PDT 1996
Article: 18053 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:18 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:00 GMT
Message-ID: <831804540$27903@atype.com>
Subject: Re: ALLMIN: US Militia Headquarters Announces Web Site
Lines: 11


In article <831769390$26260@atype.com>, terick@cybergate.net (Tom E.)
writes:

> Yeah, das right.
>Uh-huh. An if I'm lying, may lightning strike Pitcavage!  

Uh, Tom, I'm kinda ambivalent about telling mark to duck...you want to do
it?

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:12 PDT 1996
Article: 18054 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:24 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:07 GMT
Message-ID: <831804546$27915@atype.com>
Subject: Re: ALLMIN: US Militia Headquarters Announces Web Site
Lines: 11


In article <831769390$26260@atype.com>, terick@cybergate.net (Tom E.)
writes:

> Yeah, das right.
>Uh-huh. An if I'm lying, may lightning strike Pitcavage!  

Uh, Tom, I'm kinda ambivalent about telling mark to duck...you want to do
it?

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:13 PDT 1996
Article: 18055 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:31 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:13 GMT
Message-ID: <831804553$27927@atype.com>
Subject: Re: ALLMIN: US Militia Headquarters Announces Web Site
Lines: 11


In article <831769390$26260@atype.com>, terick@cybergate.net (Tom E.)
writes:

> Yeah, das right.
>Uh-huh. An if I'm lying, may lightning strike Pitcavage!  

Uh, Tom, I'm kinda ambivalent about telling mark to duck...you want to do
it?

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:14 PDT 1996
Article: 18056 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:42 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:20 GMT
Message-ID: <831804560$27939@atype.com>
Subject: Re: ALLMIN: US Militia Headquarters Announces Web Site
Lines: 11


In article <831769390$26260@atype.com>, terick@cybergate.net (Tom E.)
writes:

> Yeah, das right.
>Uh-huh. An if I'm lying, may lightning strike Pitcavage!  

Uh, Tom, I'm kinda ambivalent about telling mark to duck...you want to do
it?

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:14 PDT 1996
Article: 18057 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (8b91e74dd6b5f24c1d346fc39ae2bf9d)
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:36:37 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:26 GMT
Message-ID: <831804566$27951@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 18


In article <831779291$26537@atype.com>, Christopher Lazzo 
writes:

>If you can't read this, because of your monolinguist culture, maybe
you'l=
>l find one of your Nazi=20
>friends to translate, a real Nazi should be able to read german!=20
>=20
>I'm not german, I'm not american.

If you have problems with the culture in which you live, perhaps you'd
best state them in terms everyone can understand.  Wenn du deine rezension
nur auf Deutsch schreibst dann muss mann denken du bist nur eine Feigling
an.  [english translation of the last sentence: When you only write your
critique in German, one must think that you are a coward.]

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:15 PDT 1996
Article: 18058 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (32875cf1f4270b5562e47a5cd7647133)
References: <831779291$26537@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:36:42 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:36 GMT
Message-ID: <831804576$27963@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 18


In article <831779291$26537@atype.com>, Christopher Lazzo 
writes:

>If you can't read this, because of your monolinguist culture, maybe
you'l=
>l find one of your Nazi=20
>friends to translate, a real Nazi should be able to read german!=20
>=20
>I'm not german, I'm not american.

If you have problems with the culture in which you live, perhaps you'd
best state them in terms everyone can understand.  Wenn du deine rezension
nur auf Deutsch schreibst dann muss mann denken du bist nur eine Feigling
an.  [english translation of the last sentence: When you only write your
critique in German, one must think that you are a coward.]

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:16 PDT 1996
Article: 18059 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (1db9c496d438e44c2d78679353796de9)
References: <831779291$26537@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:36:47 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:43 GMT
Message-ID: <831804583$27975@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 18


In article <831779291$26537@atype.com>, Christopher Lazzo 
writes:

>If you can't read this, because of your monolinguist culture, maybe
you'l=
>l find one of your Nazi=20
>friends to translate, a real Nazi should be able to read german!=20
>=20
>I'm not german, I'm not american.

If you have problems with the culture in which you live, perhaps you'd
best state them in terms everyone can understand.  Wenn du deine rezension
nur auf Deutsch schreibst dann muss mann denken du bist nur eine Feigling
an.  [english translation of the last sentence: When you only write your
critique in German, one must think that you are a coward.]

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:17 PDT 1996
Article: 18060 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (a6475ec4235a2f87f89fd34b0ba965f5)
References: <831779291$26537@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:36:53 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:49 GMT
Message-ID: <831804589$27987@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 18


In article <831779291$26537@atype.com>, Christopher Lazzo 
writes:

>If you can't read this, because of your monolinguist culture, maybe
you'l=
>l find one of your Nazi=20
>friends to translate, a real Nazi should be able to read german!=20
>=20
>I'm not german, I'm not american.

If you have problems with the culture in which you live, perhaps you'd
best state them in terms everyone can understand.  Wenn du deine rezension
nur auf Deutsch schreibst dann muss mann denken du bist nur eine Feigling
an.  [english translation of the last sentence: When you only write your
critique in German, one must think that you are a coward.]

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:17 PDT 1996
Article: 18061 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (27c778ee1c27b8ee5414e95f9d9f0b0a)
References: <831779291$26537@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:36:59 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:49:59 GMT
Message-ID: <831804599$27999@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 18


In article <831779291$26537@atype.com>, Christopher Lazzo 
writes:

>If you can't read this, because of your monolinguist culture, maybe
you'l=
>l find one of your Nazi=20
>friends to translate, a real Nazi should be able to read german!=20
>=20
>I'm not german, I'm not american.

If you have problems with the culture in which you live, perhaps you'd
best state them in terms everyone can understand.  Wenn du deine rezension
nur auf Deutsch schreibst dann muss mann denken du bist nur eine Feigling
an.  [english translation of the last sentence: When you only write your
critique in German, one must think that you are a coward.]

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Sat May 11 16:46:18 PDT 1996
Article: 18062 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (e1a5524e44f4b27ec5a33cc6b329cc4f)
References: <831779291$26537@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:37:04 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!thor.atcon.com!news.nstn.ca!news.dal.ca!torn!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:50:05 GMT
Message-ID: <831804605$28013@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 18


In article <831779291$26537@atype.com>, Christopher Lazzo 
writes:

>If you can't read this, because of your monolinguist culture, maybe
you'l=
>l find one of your Nazi=20
>friends to translate, a real Nazi should be able to read german!=20
>=20
>I'm not german, I'm not american.

If you have problems with the culture in which you live, perhaps you'd
best state them in terms everyone can understand.  Wenn du deine rezension
nur auf Deutsch schreibst dann muss mann denken du bist nur eine Feigling
an.  [english translation of the last sentence: When you only write your
critique in German, one must think that you are a coward.]

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Sun May 12 11:39:09 PDT 1996
Article: 18091 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (82082f6cd599dc7484dc79413ffc4ffb)
References: <831772083$26363@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 04:35:07 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!sloth.swcp.com!tesuque.cs.sandia.gov!lynx.unm.edu!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!olivea!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 8:48:45 GMT
Message-ID: <831804525$27879@atype.com>
Subject: Re: News! Near Total Gun Ban in Australia
Lines: 7


In article <831772083$26363@atype.com>, mlight@hpax.cup.hp.com (Mike
Light) writes:

>Sounds like an export opportunity for east-Europe and east-Asian nations.

yeah, and the prices are going to go through the roof!


From ahabiz@aol.com Sun May 12 11:39:12 PDT 1996
Article: 18122 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 11 May 1996 02:30:06 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 11 May 96 6:33:29 GMT
Message-ID: <831796409$27290@atype.com>
Subject: Re: "Freemen" holding child hostages ???????
Lines: 70


In article <831760383$26047@atype.com>, garyn@sun.tir.com (Gary Newberry)
writes:

> UMMMM I'm not a 'Rocket Scientist' however , "I" wouldn't expect to
>shoot at or kill anyone, much less a policeman or FBI/BATF Agent
>serving a search warrant and think I'm going to hole up and that they
>are going to just go away. I would KNOW that they are going to end the
>standoff sooner or later and root me and any followers out of my
>home/compound or whatever you want to call it by some means or method.

The correlary of this, would seem to be that you believe that the
government *does* have the right to, without provocation, shoot at you,
and attack your home using lethal force (a la the initial assault on the
Davidian compound), and that you would not resist such an assault.  Is
that a correct assessment of your position?

>'Types" refers to the mindset of those who think they can flagrantly
>break the law that most everyone else obeys and arm themselves and
>attempt to get away with it. Lots of people have Kited checks ala the
>FM, most don't them grab a gun and attempt to hold off law enfocement,

Okay, first off, nobody here is defending the FM's actions vis a vis their
rather unique ideas on capital generation.  However, what Typhanee and I
and some of the others are trying to get across to you is that  you and
thee FM are operating from  substantially different frame of reference. 
To all appearances, the FM believe the federal government to be an illegal
and immoral organization.  WHETHER OR NOT THAT IS REASONABLE TO YOU, in
order to understand *their* actions, you must understand what is
reasonable to them.  Think of this as an extreme case of multiculturalism.
 From *their* perspective they are acting in a logical manner, consistent
with their beliefs.  It is because of this cultural collision that I fear
the end for these folks will not go well at all.


>in the same vein as most religious organizations wouldn't shoot at or
>kill someone attempting to serve a search warrant.

I believe you're talking about the Davidians again?  If so, only if one
actually believes the story that the atf were attempting to serve a
warrant (which later testimony shows the atf agents didn't even bother to
take with them), would this be a rational statement.  You will be
hardpressed to find anyone on this newsgroup who believes such was the
case.  For a more balanced view of what actually occurred in the initial
government assault on the Mt. Carmel compound, you might try reading Dick
Reavis' book THE ASHES OF WACO.

>My point is 'COMMON HORSE SENSE', if YOU were in an armed standoff
>with law enfocement officials would YOU want ANY children around ?

Of course one would not intentionally wish to put children in harms way. 
However, if one is poor (as are most of the FM) and one is surrounded in
one's own home, as they are, there aren't many options left.  Not
everybody can pull out the gold card and send the kids off to Disney World
for a few weeks, you know?  As importantly, please remember that both in
the case of the FM and the case of the Davidians, the federal government
is perceived *by*the*people*involved* as being inherently evil.  Would you
choose to turn your children over to evil people, even if threatened at
gunpoint?  Again, unless you understand the culture and perspective of
these folks, there is no adiquate way to determine their motivations. 

>Did you miss the nationally syndicated political cartoon with a FM all
>dressed in his camouflage gear holding a rifle , with a child strapped
>to his chest ???

Interesting question.  I guess my reaction is yes, indeed, I did miss that
cartoon, but that's okay - my views are formed on experience, reading, and
thoughtful reflection; rather than political propaganda cartoons.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Sun May 12 11:39:13 PDT 1996
Article: 18130 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:40:10 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:38 GMT
Message-ID: <831884018$1773@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14


In article <831862090$249@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I'm just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you've got a point there - especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past...interesting.

Arlin



From ahabiz@aol.com Sun May 12 11:39:14 PDT 1996
Article: 18139 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:35 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:10 GMT
Message-ID: <831883990$1725@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14


In article <831862090$249@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I'm just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you've got a point there - especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past...interesting.

Arlin



From ahabiz@aol.com Sun May 12 11:39:15 PDT 1996
Article: 18172 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (60c5e75df2a5d4bff037eeacf8953433)
References: <831862090$249@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:12 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:52:56 GMT
Message-ID: <831883976$1701@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14


In article <831862090$249@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I'm just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you've got a point there - especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past...interesting.

Arlin



From ahabiz@aol.com Sun May 12 11:39:16 PDT 1996
Article: 18175 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:56 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!hunter.premier.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!news.be.innet.net!bofh.dot!INbe.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!lade.news.pipex.net!pipex!tube.news.pipex.net!pipex!hole.news.pipex.net!pipex!oleane!jussieu.fr!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:32 GMT
Message-ID: <831884011$1761@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14


In article <831862090$249@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I'm just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you've got a point there - especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past...interesting.

Arlin




From ahabiz@aol.com Sun May 12 11:39:17 PDT 1996
Article: 18177 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (a6e0e76308cda6f925ef96973eb98bf0)
References: <831862090$249@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:22 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:04 GMT
Message-ID: <831883984$1713@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14


In article <831862090$249@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I'm just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you've got a point there - especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past...interesting.

Arlin



From ahabiz@aol.com Sun May 12 11:39:18 PDT 1996
Article: 18181 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: <831862090$249@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 02:39:43 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 6:53:25 GMT
Message-ID: <831884005$1749@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 14


In article <831862090$249@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>Just out of curiosity, is this the philosophical orientation from which
>your comments derive? I'm just wondering, since Herr Kleim has some
>wonderful writings on how to apply and structure posts.

You know, Wiz, you've got a point there - especially when one considers
the fact that the nazidiots have been known to cooperate with radical Arab
anti-semitic groups in the past...interesting.

Arlin



From ahabiz@aol.com Sun May 12 11:39:20 PDT 1996
Article: 18218 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (b9dcaf6ea6ab9fce1a902388ba3949e8)
References: <831882847$956@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 12:08:28 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 16:18:16 GMT
Message-ID: <831917896$2760@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 22


In article <831882847$956@atype.com>, jd11b@aol.com (JD11B) writes:

> Let's remember that Plessy v.
>Ferguson was not about discrimination per se rather it was about the
>rights of some citzens not to associate with other citizens and the other
>citizens right to equal treatment under the law. 

Uh, Chris, I beg to differ. I think this is a somewhat revisionist
interpretation of P.v F.  My read was that it *was* in fact intended to
counter de facto differences in treatment, NOT free association.  There is
a difference.  Example:  Let's say that while I'm working in the yard
another libertarian comes up and asks for a drink, so I reach into my
cooler and hand him a cold one.  Now immediately thereafter a liberal
yuppie wanders up and asks the same question.  I don't particularly like
yuppies, and I'm sure he'll sense that, but as long as I offer *him* a
cold one as well, there's no problem, even though he will know he his not
really welcome in my yard.  If I tell him he has to drink out of the
garden hose, on the other hand, *that* is seperate but not equal.

Interested to hear your response
Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Sun May 12 11:39:21 PDT 1996
Article: 18219 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: <831883962$1677@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 12:12:39 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 16:18:23 GMT
Message-ID: <831917903$2772@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 8


In article <831883962$1677@atype.com>, jd11b@aol.com (JD11B) writes:

> What's the fail safe mechanism?

common sense, and a generally democratic structure.  In this instance the
miltias have a *much* higher level of fail safe than the conventional
armed forces.


From ahabiz@aol.com Sun May 12 11:39:22 PDT 1996
Article: 18221 of misc.activism.militia
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References: <831884597$1841@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 12:15:37 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 16:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <831918785$2808@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Amendments CAN be unconstitutional
Lines: 14


In article <831884597$1841@atype.com>, jd11b@aol.com (JD11B) writes:

>Amendment X
>"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor
>prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States, or to the
>people."
>
>Looks pretty clear that it doesn't say that Mike.

Uh, Chris, in order to understand mikey's unique perspective one must
approach the Constitution stoned...

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon May 13 08:27:54 PDT 1996
Article: 18263 of misc.activism.militia
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 16:29:50 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 12 May 96 20:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <831933183$3324@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 12


In article <831882783$860@atype.com>, "Denes S. Varady"
 writes:

>[Remember: we have NO peace treaty with Germany!!]

Uh, Denes, that's because Germany was forced to surrender
*unconditionally* at the end of WWII.  In order to have a peace treaty,
both sides have to be able to negotiate...Germany simply wasn't given that
option.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon May 13 08:27:59 PDT 1996
Article: 18276 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 23:38:15 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 3:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <831959283$4073@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 14


In article <831944883$3681@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Perhaps some people forget how many 
>in the movement believe there are thousands and thousands of UN troops in
>this 
>country, with many more waiting to invade from Mexico.
>
>
>

perhaps some people forget how many in the movement *don't* believe these
things.


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon May 13 08:28:07 PDT 1996
Article: 18278 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 12 May 1996 23:46:13 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 3:48:17 GMT
Message-ID: <831959297$4097@atype.com>
Subject: Re: AOL POSTS
Lines: 12


In article <831943092$3551@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>I think the newsgroup should consider whether or not it wants the 
>auto-moderator to exclude all posts from AOL for the next month or so.
>Seeing 
>six to ten duplicates of every post from AOL is beyond irritating; it is 
>ridiculous.

oh come on, mark, WE put up with YOU...I say block aol if you block
Ohio-state.edu, as well.


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon May 13 11:17:27 PDT 1996
Article: 18330 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 13 May 1996 11:24:31 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 15:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832001583$5718@atype.com>
Subject: Re: CAREERS ACT final blow to American Freedom!
Lines: 13


In article <831953900$3973@atype.com>, jdulaney@nntp1.best.com (John
Dulaney) writes:

>	Our Fates?	
>	Sealed.
>	Too late to do anything about it?
>	Yes.

Uh, John, when you post to this newsgroup you're talking to people who are
*already* doing something about it (well, except for mark)...think you may
have targetted the wrong audience with this ad for your web site...try
posting it in alt.inactivism.sheeple....


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon May 13 11:17:28 PDT 1996
Article: 18331 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 15:33:11 GMT
Message-ID: <832001591$5730@atype.com>
Subject: Re: In Defence of Mark T Pitsavage
Lines: 12


In article <831972842$4635@atype.com>, mo10cav@aol.com (Mo10Cav) writes:

>Take a poll, Markie.  Ask the  boys and girls on this newsgroup who they
>trust more-- you or me.

Mike, 

Nobody believes mark's tripe...he was just trying to get your goat.

Best
Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:47 PDT 1996
Article: 18346 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 13 May 1996 11:33:28 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 16:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832004284$5837@atype.com>
Subject: Re: In Defence of Mark T Pitsavage
Lines: 27


In article <831994433$5461@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Come to think of it, you laid some pretty heavy accusations on militia
>members 
>Brad Glover and Stewart Waterhouse, but refused to give any sources. 
Maybe
>the
>information came from some federal bosses?
>
>

This one ain't gonna fly mark.  We all know Mike.   As for the information
concerning messers Glover and Waterhouse, there is absolutely no reason to
divulge militia information sources to you.

On the other hand mark,  we don't know YOU, since you've been so paranoid
about talking about yourself. YOU might enlighten us by explaining just
who *exactly* is providing funding for your research.  Absolutely no one
here believes you're doing this for free.  We've seen you post during a
regular work day, as I do, but unlike me, YOU are not a disabled
vet...which means that you may very likely be posting from your
office...whereever that might be...if you're so big on names and
locations, maybe it's time you started by providing your own.

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:48 PDT 1996
Article: 18365 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 13 May 1996 11:24:05 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 13 May 96 15:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <832002485$5772@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Strategy and tactics for militia civil war
Lines: 7


In article <831994388$5389@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Yes, it is duly noted that you are advising people to murder me.

ah, and now who is sounding paranoid?


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:49 PDT 1996
Article: 18424 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 13 May 1996 20:44:09 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 0:49:35 GMT
Message-ID: <832034975$8099@atype.com>
Subject: Re: I saw black helicopters once . . .
Lines: 14


In article <832024095$6963@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>>BTW:  My
>>car is dark blue.  What does that symbolize if any aircraft painted
black
>>"means" tyrrany?
>
>a lousy sense of color and low resale value?  :-)
>
>

insurance salesmen? :-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:50 PDT 1996
Article: 18446 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 06:33:22 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 10:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832070883$10133@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 29


In article <832016884$6513@atype.com>,
"medintz@falcon.cc.ukans.edu"@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU writes:

>spake Mark T Pitcavage:
>: >
>: >I've seen some very good common sense arguments that say otherwise.
>
>: I don't care if you've seen some common sense arguments that say
otherwise
>that
>: are so good they wash your car and clean your laundry.  What I said was
a 
>: -fact-, an indisputable -fact-, and one that has been universally
>acknowledged 
>: in courts, legal writings, historical writings and everywhere else for 
>: -centuries-.
>
>Doc, the Flat Earth, the Geocentric Universe, the nonevolution and 
>immutability of species, and the moral rightness of human slavery were
also 
>thought to be indisputable universally acknowledged facts for centuries.
>What makes your indisputable fact any different.

Why Mike, if he acknowledged that, why, then he'd have to acknowledge that
people control the law, rather than the other way around...and THEN he'd
be in a position where *people* were more important than written words,
and THEN he'd lose all of his absolutes...why next thing you know, he
might form a militia unit on campus, and *then* where would he be?  ;-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:51 PDT 1996
Article: 18447 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 06:48:00 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832071783$10191@atype.com>
Subject: Re: AOL POSTS
Lines: 14


In article <832017786$6554@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>I take it from your response you were not offering to pay the hookup,
>monthly, and long-distance fees ... oh well. Yet another unfunded mandate
>based on personal  convenience for the "me-only party" rather than an
>effective review of all facts.

But Wiz, mark's response is typical of those we've come to expect from the
fedgov (you'll notice I did *not* use the term 'liberal' this time)...he's
an excellent example of the problem.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:52 PDT 1996
Article: 18450 of misc.activism.militia
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 06:59:35 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:03:38 GMT
Message-ID: <832071818$10239@atype.com>
Subject: Re: In Defence of Mark T Pitsavage
Lines: 47


In article <832008791$6065@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

> If I were, you would not see the notice on the Militia Watchdog 
>that I am looking for under-writers. 

oh, you wouldn't need camoflage?

> If I were, I could get a lot more 
>subscriptions to extremist newsletters, etc., buy more videos, upgrade my

>obsolete computer equipment, etc., etc., etc.

nice example, but useless in this context since no one here knows what you
are currently purchasing, nor what computer equipment you have.  


>As to my posting during a regular work day, I suppose most people with an

>internet connection in their office can do that.

no, actually most people can't - that's something that businesses
generally forbid, and there's network monitoring software specifically
designed to prevent it.

>The reason I don't like to give out where I work is that I don't want
>nutcases 
>bothering the place; 

don't allow them to hold faculty meetings in your office...oh, you mean
nutcases from *outside* the university...hmm, not knowing who all lurks on
this group, and considering the likes of hub*r and miltie the nazi show up
occaisionally, I think I could accept this as a valid concern.

>I already get hate e-mail and crank phone calls from you
>guys.

uh, which guys?  crank phone calls are childish at best, if you asked,
there are probably people associated with the militias in your area, who
might be able to put a stop to that, you know...if in fact it's militia
folks who are involved to begin with.  As for 'hate email' does that
include responses to some of your more inflamatory posts?  I realize that
there's a chance you may believe you are on the side of goodness and
light, but does that mean that you don't have to worry about anything you
say here on the newsgroup?  I'm not sure I understand you clearly here.



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:52 PDT 1996
Article: 18451 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 07:08:07 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832072683$10267@atype.com>
Subject: Re: The Sheeple
Lines: 10


In article <831999788$5682@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Maybe the "sheeple" are less sheeplike than you would like to believe. 
Maybe
>they simply reject your extremist views because they are not valid.

maybe arguing with mikey is a waste of time...just what exactly set you
off about his use of the term 'sheeple', anyway, mark?


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:53 PDT 1996
Article: 18457 of misc.activism.militia
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 07:14:07 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:19:12 GMT
Message-ID: <832072752$10363@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 22


In article <832033981$7843@atype.com>, horseman@indirect.com (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:

>Mark T Pitcavage (mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
>: About eight months or so ago, I asked people in the newsgroup what 
>: they thought about a UN conspiracy to invade the United States, and 
>: almost all of the replies said they thought it was true.  I doubt 
>: opinions here have changed all 
>: that much in the ensuing months, but perhaps it is time to ask it
again.
>
>Well, *there's* a blatant lie...I was here then, and I for one was one of

>those DENOUNCING such poppycock. I saw perhaps three people who thought 
>it was actually true, and a large number of people who were willing to 
>discuss the notion with its proponents...ah, I see. Pitcavage has lumped 
>everyone who was willing to hear the NWO folx out as *being* NWO. Okay.

Scott, mark is just a propagandist, you know - everybody who disagrees
with him doesn't count, and anybody who does is 'a majority'....



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:54 PDT 1996
Article: 18458 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 11:19:20 GMT
Message-ID: <832072760$10379@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 13


In article <832030403$7235@atype.com>, dcg3@ix.netcom.com (DAVID GROSSACK
) writes:

>Mr. Pitcavage errs when he opines that the patriot movement must
>    reconsider its direction if it appears to be drawing insufficent
>    public support.

Not to worry David, the morning after the revolution mark will *still* be
sitting at his computer attempting to convince people we don't stand a
chance :-)

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:55 PDT 1996
Article: 18515 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832087983$12711@atype.com>
Subject: Re: What I'd Like To See
Lines: 22


In article <832036754$8424@atype.com>, horseman@indirect.com (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:

>Mark T Pitcavage (mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
>: In article <831558783$17568@atype.com>, PGISSource 
>wrote:
>: >I don't know, Doc. A few congressmen also seem to share in that
problem.
>: >Are they simply conspiracy nuts? How much of a role have the
politicians
>
>: I think the black helicopters got Vince Foster.
>
>Once again, Mr. Pitcavage shows his tendency to derail any topic on which

>he is contested with senseless blather.

either that, or he's intentionally skewing his data - you see if he merely
keeps track of irrational responses, then *his* irrational responses count
toward the total...interesting possible cheat, no?



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:55 PDT 1996
Article: 18516 of misc.activism.militia
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 11:20:42 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:12 GMT
Message-ID: <832087992$12727@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Militia in NYC
Lines: 12


In article <832036746$8408@atype.com>, Eric Engelmann 
writes:

>At the risk of being labeled with Mr. Huber, I've not seen any posts 
>in which he advocates making anyone a sitting duck.

if you can stand the general filth level, you might check out some of the
stuff he posts in the nazidiot news groups...and some of his allies...yes,
they do advocate killing those who disagree with them....

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:56 PDT 1996
Article: 18517 of misc.activism.militia
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 11:25:54 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:28 GMT
Message-ID: <832088008$12743@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Why We're Here WAS Re: German Air-Force in U.S.A
Lines: 12


In article <832039407$8679@atype.com>, mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
writes:

>
>Thanks for asking! What are your thoughts about the whole deal?

uh, Mike, dollars to donuts his thoughts probably revolve around the idea
that he could actually be out chasing down criminals if he hadn't gotten
stuck behind a desk reading all of these %@#$ newsgroup messages :-)

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:57 PDT 1996
Article: 18518 of misc.activism.militia
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 11:28:27 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:36 GMT
Message-ID: <832088016$12759@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Germans take over N.M. AIR STATION
Lines: 11


In article <832045710$8935@atype.com>, lanet@agt.net (Beatle) writes:

>
>Kill those fucking Nazi's. What the hell are they doing on our soil? I
can't 
>believe Americans would allow this or even try to join them. All fucking 
>traiters must die.....

y'know, once the end of the semester comes around, they really should
defund those undergraduate accounts...


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:58 PDT 1996
Article: 18519 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 14 May 1996 11:31:09 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:45 GMT
Message-ID: <832088025$12775@atype.com>
Subject: Re: no more crosses
Lines: 12


In article <832067302$9980@atype.com>, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber)
writes:

>It is only a matter of time before new-speakers litigate the cross right 
>off your church spire.

hub*r you moron, who do you think you'r peddling this crap to, anyway?  It
never ceases to amaze me how your attempts to warp the world into your own
wierd image fail so miserably.  

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:24:59 PDT 1996
Article: 18520 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:33:53 GMT
Message-ID: <832088033$12791@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jews And the New World Order
Lines: 17


In article <832072768$10395@atype.com>, dcg3@ix.netcom.com (DAVID GROSSACK
) writes:

>  The perception that Jews are part of the New World Order program
>   is as erroneous as the notion that fear of the New World Order is 
>   irrational. 

Hi David,

We all know that, thankyou.  The only folks who *don't* understand are
hub*r and miltie the nazi, who occaisionally wander in here from the
nazidiot newsgroups...I think they have a hard time with all of those
computer buttons, you know ;-)

Best
Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 10:18:20 GMT
Message-ID: <832069100$10066@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 15


In article <832006122$5994@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>Louis Farrakhan does not presume to speak for the NAACP.  He is not even
a
>member.  He DOES, however, presume to speak for the Nation of Islam.

Why Jim, you old scoundrel -  Long time no complain!

 I believe Robert, and most everyone else here already KNOWS  Mr.
Farrakhan doesn't represent the NAACP...that was the point...sarcasm, you
know?

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832093383$13249@atype.com>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 14


In article <832085292$12580@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Actually, gun control was not a real issue before the 1920s and 1930s
because
>
>rapid-fire weapons were not readily available before then.  

uh, mark, would you please define what you mean by "rapid fire weapons". 
Also, please remember the post-Reconstruction racist gun control laws in
the South.

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832095184$13518@atype.com>
Subject: Re: "Worst Nightmare"
Lines: 13


In article <832081764$11318@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Ah, but providence was good enough to provide a choice for you, since old
>Henry
>Bibee reposted the threat.  Now you can take your foot out of your ass
and 
>replace it in your mouth.

except no one other than yourself perceives the Declaration as a
threat...how many times do you want to go 'round *this* particular circle,
mark?


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:03 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832096083$13688@atype.com>
Subject: Re: The Sheeple
Lines: 10


In article <832083521$11564@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>The fact that Mike Chapman said it was irrelevant.  Lots of people in
this 
>newsgroup and across the patriot movement use the term "sheeple."

I'm sorry you find that shoe fits so well, but you know mark, you're the
only one who can change that about you.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:18:05 GMT
Message-ID: <832094285$13431@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 8


In article <832084402$12366@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>So, when do you propose to start your revolution against the government?

Why, mark, I didn't say *we* were going to start it.  When do you plan to
start openly oppressing political dissidents?


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:05 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:18:14 GMT
Message-ID: <832094294$13447@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Strategy and tactics for militia civil war
Lines: 13


In article <832082641$11456@atype.com>, Robert Marks 
writes:

>Consider that these men and their followers brought about genuine 
>revolutionary change, without a shot being fired (by them, at any rate.) 

Hi Robert,

some of us have a somewhat stronger aversion to being shot *at*, without
defending ourselves, than the examples you gave...

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 17:33:48 GMT
Message-ID: <832095228$13598@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 17


In article <832075427$10686@atype.com>, jd11b@aol.com (JD11B) writes:

> "If the two races are to
>meet upon terms of social equality , it must be the results of natural
>affinities, a mutual  appreciation of each other's merits and a voluntary
>consent  of individuals."  I think this language strongly suggests that
>the justices were considering a freedom not to associate somewhere in
>their mind.

difference in perspectives produces interesting interpretations - I take
the same phrase to indicate that such association *must* be voluntary to
be meaningful :-)  Who was it that said 'where you stand depends on where
you sit?

Best
Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 14 May 96 15:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832087084$12667@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 24


In article <832075397$10638@atype.com>, jd11b@aol.com (JD11B) writes:

>Are you suggesting that Germans and Italians had no common sense (Refer
to
>the SA and Mussolini's blackshirts)?

In the same sense that many folks today do not show common sense in
evaluating what they are told by the media, politicians and the like, not
that the Germans and Italians *had* no common sense, but rather that they
failed to exercise it effectively.

> Actually I'd feel a little more
>comfortable with the militia movement if it's officers were truly
>democratically elected by entire community instead of those few who
volunteer

hmm, certainly in a perfect world this would be the best possible
situation.  As it is, though, we have the same situation we get with every
other election - many people 'vote' simply by failing to bother to do
anything at all.  Old saying:  The world is run by those who show up. 

Best
Arlin



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 0:18:16 GMT
Message-ID: <832119496$15523@atype.com>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 34


In article <832095209$13566@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>As previous posters in the thread had already noted, that was a temporary
and 
>localized phenomenon, not really equatable to the controversy over gun
control 
>today.

hmm, the only previous posters who attempted to make that point were you
and Jim Vargas.  As multiple previous posters, including myself pointed
out - not only were these historical racially oppressive gun control laws
the direct linear antecedents of moderng gun control, they were also
intended to accomplish the same thing - keep the power out of the hands of
large segments of society.  They are directly related to the controversy
over gun control today.


>As for "defining" rapid fire weapons, I don't see any reason to do so;
what I
>
>said was perfectly clear.

uh, from your post, in which you specifically refered to 'tommy guns'
(i.e. Thompson Submachineguns) I took your usage to mean automatic
weapons.  Unfortunately that's not what the term rapid fire means in
firearms parlance.  Rapid Fire is a particular rate of firing, usually a
given number of rounds in a given number of seconds, used in firearms
competition.  This is as opposed to Slow Fire, which is also a competition
term, normally measured as a given number of rounds in a given number of
minutes.  I have seen skilled competitors fire Rapid Fire events using
bolt action rifles, while I have also seen selective fire rifles used in
Slow Fire events.  Your meaning, therefore, was inherently unclear.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 14:48:13 GMT
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Subject: Re: AOL POSTS
Lines: 8


In article <832100592$14108@atype.com>,
"medintz@falcon.cc.ukans.edu"@KUHUB.CC.UKANS.EDU writes:

> plus Pitcavage and Chapman to make straw men out of each
>other.

make??  they *are*, no make about it.


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Date: Wed, 15 May 96 14:48:20 GMT
Message-ID: <832171700$18308@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Militia in NYC
Lines: 18


In article <832119510$15549@atype.com>, Eric Engelmann 
writes:

>I've seen a number of posts by him in alt.conspiracy. Can't recall
>him ever threatening anyone. 

try alt.politics.whitepower, and you'll see some rather interesting
theories on inbreeding as a positive social function, or whatever  you'll
also see direct threats by folks directly related to hub*r's affiliated
groups (national appliance, and so on)...but wear boots and be prepared to
throw them away after you leave. 

You might also try talking to Ken McVay at the Nizkor project, they have a
fair amount of background posts accumulated from these idiots...

Best
Arlin


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Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:03:04 GMT
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Subject: Re: HOW MANY KINDS OF MILITIA ARE THERE???
Lines: 8


In article <832153696$17319@atype.com>, mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
writes:

>That's not a really smart approach, Chapman.

you are herewith nominated for the first monthly FIRM GRASP OF THE OBVIOUS
award :-)


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Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:03:17 GMT
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Subject: FACTS mark doesn't want you to know Part I (the text)
Lines: 568




published in the Winter 1995 issue of Kansas Journal of Law and
Public Policy.


The Racist Roots of Gun Control

Copyright 1993 Clayton E. Cramer All Rights Reserved

Electronic redistribution is permitted as long as no alterations 
are made to the text and this notice appears at the beginning.
Print reproduction or for profit use is not authorized without
permission from the author.


  The  historical record provides compelling  evidence  that
racism  underlies gun control laws -- and not in  any  subtle
way.   Throughout much of American history, gun control  was
openly  stated as a method for keeping blacks and  Hispanics
"in  their place," and to quiet the racial fears of  whites.
This  paper is intended to provide a brief summary  of  this
unholy  alliance of gun control and racism, and  to  suggest
that gun control laws should be regarded as "suspect ideas,"
analogous   to  the  "suspect  classifications"  theory   of
discrimination already part of the American legal system.

  Racist  arms laws predate the establishment of the  United
States.   Starting in 1751, the French Black  Code  required
Louisiana  colonists to stop any blacks, and  if  necessary,
beat  "any  black carrying any potential weapon, such  as  a
cane."   If  a black refused to stop on demand, and  was  on
horseback, the colonist was authorized to "shoot to  kill."[1]
Slave possession of firearms was a necessity at times  in  a
frontier  society, yet laws continued to  be  passed  in  an
attempt  to  prohibit slaves or free blacks from  possessing
firearms,   except   under  very  restrictively   controlled
conditions.[2]  Similarly, in the sixteenth century the colony
of  New  Spain, terrified of black slave revolts, prohibited
all blacks, free and slave, from carrying arms.[3]

  In   the  Haitian  Revolution  of  the  1790s,  the  slave
population successfully threw off their French masters,  but
the  Revolution  degenerated into a race war,  aggravating
existing  fears  in the French Louisiana colony,  and  among
whites  in the slave states of the United States.  When  the
first U. S. official arrived in New Orleans in 1803 to  take
charge  of this new American possession, the planters sought
to  have  the  existing  free black  militia  disarmed,  and
otherwise exclude "free blacks from positions in which  they
were  required  to  bear arms," including such  non-military
functions  as  slave-catching crews.  The New  Orleans  city
government also stopped whites from teaching fencing to free
blacks,  and then, when free blacks sought to teach fencing,
similarly prohibited their efforts as well.[4]

  It  is  not  surprising  that  the  first  North  American
English  colonies,  then the states  of  the  new  republic,
remained  in  dread fear of armed blacks, for slave  revolts
against  slave owners often degenerated into less  selective
forms  of  racial warfare.  The perception that free  blacks
were  sympathetic to the plight of their enslaved  brothers,
and  the dangerous example that "a Negro could be free" also
caused the slave states to pass laws designed to disarm  all
blacks,  both  slave and free.  Unlike the gun control  laws
passed  after the Civil War, these antebellum statutes  were
for  blacks alone.  In Maryland, these prohibitions went  so
far  as  to prohibit free blacks from owning dogs without  a
license, and authorizing any white to kill an unlicensed dog
owned  by a free black, for fear that blacks would use  dogs
as  weapons.   Mississippi went further, and prohibited  any
ownership of a dog by a black person.[5]

  Understandably, restrictions on slave possession  of  arms
  go  back a very long way.  While arms restrictions on free
blacks predate it, these restrictions increased dramatically
after  Nat Turner's Rebellion in 1831, a revolt that  caused
the  South to become increasingly irrational in its  fears.[6]
Virginia's  response to Turner's Rebellion  prohibited  free
blacks  "to  keep  or carry any firelock of  any  kind,  any
military weapon, or any powder or lead..."  The existing  laws
under  which  free  blacks  were  occasionally  licensed  to
possess  or  carry  arms  was  also  repealed,  making  arms
possession  completely illegal for free blacks.[7]   But  even
before  this  action  by the Virginia  Legislature,  in  the
aftermath of Turner's Rebellion, the discovery that  a  free
black  family possessed lead shot for use as scale  weights,
without powder or weapon in which to fire it, was considered
sufficient  reason  for a frenzied mob  to  discuss  summary
execution  of  the  owner.[8]   The  analogy  to  the  current
hysteria where mere possession of ammunition in some  states
without a firearms license may lead to jail time, should  be
obvious.

  One  example of the increasing fear of armed blacks is the
1834 change to the Tennessee Constitution, where Article XI,
26  of  the  1796 Tennessee Constitution was  revised  from:
"That the freemen of this State have a right to keep and  to
bear  arms  for their common defence,"[9] to: "That  the  free
white  men of this State have a right to keep and to  bear
arms for their common defence."[10] [emphasis added]  It is not
clear what motivated this change, other than Turner's bloody
insurrection.  The year before, the Tennessee Supreme  Court
had  recognized  the  right to bear arms  as  an  individual
guarantee,  but  there  is nothing  in  that  decision  that
touches on the subject of race.[11]

  Other   decisions  during  the  antebellum   period   were
unambiguous  about  the importance of  race.   In  State  v.
Huntly   (1843),  the  North  Carolina  Supreme  Court   had
recognized  that there was a right to carry arms  guaranteed
under the North Carolina Constitution, as long as such  arms
were  carried  in a manner not likely to frighten  people.[12]
The  following year, the North Carolina Supreme  Court  made
one  of  those decisions whose full significance  would  not
appear  until  after  the  Civil  War  and  passage  of  the
Fourteenth Amendment.  An 1840 statute provided:




 
 That if any free negro, mulatto, or free person of color,
 shall  wear or carry about his or her person, or keep  in
 his  or  her house, any shot gun, musket, rifle,  pistol,
 sword, dagger or bowie-knife, unless he or she shall have
 obtained  a licence therefor from the Court of Pleas  and
 Quarter  Sessions of his or her county, within  one  year
 preceding  the wearing, keeping or carrying therefor,  he
 or  she  shall  be guilty of a misdemeanor,  and  may  be
 indicted therefor.[13]



  Elijah  Newsom, "a free person of color," was indicted  in
Cumberland  County  in June of 1843 for carrying  a  shotgun
without  a  license  -- at the very time the  North  Carolina
Supreme Court was deciding Huntly.  Newsom was convicted  by
a  jury;  but the trial judge directed a not guilty verdict,
and  the state appealed to the North Carolina Supreme Court.
Newsom's  attorney  argued that the statute  requiring  free
blacks to obtain a license to "keep and bear arms" was  in
violation  of  both  the  Second  Amendment  to  the  U.  S.
Constitution, and the North Carolina Constitution's  similar
guarantee  of  a right to keep and bear arms.[14]   The  North
Carolina  Supreme Court refused to accept  that  the  Second
Amendment  was a limitation on state laws, but had  to  deal
with  the  problem  of the state constitutional  guarantees,
which had been used in the Huntly decision, the year before.

  The  17th  article of the 1776 North Carolina Constitution
declared:




 
  That  the  people have a right to bear  arms,  for  the
  defence of the State; and, as standing armies, in  time
  of  peace, are dangerous to liberty, they ought not  to
  be  kept up; and that the military should be kept under
  strict  subordination to, and governed  by,  the  civil
  power.[15]



  The  Court asserted that: "We cannot see that the  act  of
1840  is  in  conflict  with it...   The  defendant  is  not
indicted for carrying arms in defence of the State, nor does
the  act  of  1840  prohibit him from so doing."[16]   But  in
Huntly,  the  Court  had acknowledged that  the  restrictive
language "for the defence of the State" did not preclude  an
individual right.[17]  The Court then attempted to justify the
necessity of this law:

  


 
  Its only object is to preserve the peace and safety  of
  the community from being disturbed by an indiscriminate
  use,  on  ordinary occasions, by free men of color,  of
  fire  arms  or  other  arms of an offensive  character.
  Self preservation is the first law of nations, as it is
  of individuals.[18]



  The  North Carolina Supreme Court also sought to repudiate
the  idea  that free  blacks  were protected  by  the  North
Carolina Constitution's Bill of Rights by pointing out  that
the  Constitution  excluded free  blacks  from  voting,  and
therefore free blacks were not citizens.  Unlike a number of
other  state constitutions with right to keep and bear  arms
provisions  that  limited  this right  only  to  citizens,[19]
Article 17 guaranteed this right to the people -- and try  as
hard  as they might, it was difficult to argue that a  "free
person of color," in the words of the Court, was not one  of
"the people."

  It  is one of the great ironies that, in much the same way
that the North Carolina Supreme Court recognized a right  to
bear  arms  in 1843 -- then a year later declared  that  free
blacks  were  not included -- the Georgia Supreme  Court  did
likewise  before  the 1840s were out.  The  Georgia  Supreme
Court   found  in  Nunn  v.  State  (1846)  that  a  statute
prohibiting  the sale of concealable handguns,  sword-canes,
and daggers violated the Second Amendment:

  


 
  The  right  of  the whole people, old and  young,  men,
  women and boys, and not militia only, to keep and  bear
  arms  of every description, and not such merely as  are
  used by the militia, shall not be infringed, curtailed,
  or  broken in upon, in the smallest degree; and all  of
  this  for the important end to be attained: the rearing
  up  and qualifying a well-regulated militia, so vitally
  necessary to the security of a free State.  Our opinion
  is, that any law, State or Federal, is repugnant to the
  Constitution, and void, which contravenes  this  right,
  originally belonging to our forefathers, trampled under
  foot  by  Charles  I.  and  his  two  wicked  sons  and
  successors,  reestablished by the revolution  of  1688,
  conveyed to this land of liberty by the colonists,  and
  finally  incorporated conspicuously in  our  own  Magna
  Charta!   And Lexington, Concord, Camden, River Raisin,
  Sandusky, and the laurel-crowned field of New  Orleans,
  plead eloquently for this interpretation![20]



  Finally,  after this paean to liberty -- in a  state  where
much  of the population remained enslaved, forbidden by  law
to  possess arms of any sort -- the Court defined  the  valid
limits of laws restricting the bearing of arms:

  


 
  We  are of the opinion, then, that so far as the act of
  1837 seeks to suppress the practice of carrying certain
  weapons secretly, that it is valid, inasmuch as it does
  not  deprive the citizen of his natural right of  self-
  defence,  or  of his constitutional right to  keep  and
  bear  arms.   But  that so much of it,  as  contains  a
  prohibition against bearing arms openly, is in conflict
  with the Constitution, and void...[21]



  "Citizen"?  Within a single page, the Court had gone  from
"right  of  the whole people, old and young, men, women  and
boys"  to  the  much more narrowly restrictive  right  of  a
"citizen."  The motivation for this sudden narrowing of  the
right appeared two years later.

  The  decision  Cooper and Worsham v. Savannah  (1848)  was
not,  principally, a right to keep and bear arms  case.   In
1839,  the city of Savannah, Georgia, in an admitted  effort
"to  prevent  the increase of free persons of color  in  our
city,"  had  established a $100 per year tax on free  blacks
moving  into  Savannah from other parts of Georgia.   Samuel
Cooper  and  Hamilton Worsham, two "free persons of  color,"
were convicted of failing to pay the tax, and were jailed.[22]
On  appeal, counsel for Cooper and Worsham argued  that  the
ordinance establishing the tax was deficient in a number  of
technical  areas; the assertion of most interest to  us  is,
"In  Georgia,  free  persons  of color  have  constitutional
rights..."   Cooper and Worsham's counsel argued that  these
rights  included writ of habeas corpus, right  to  own  real
estate, to be "subject to taxation," "[t]hey may sue and  be
sued," and cited a number of precedents under Georgia law in
defense of their position.[23]

  Justice  Warner  delivered the Court's  opinion,  most  of
which is irrelevant to the right to keep and bear arms,  but
one  portion  shows  the  fundamental  relationship  between
citizenship,  arms, and elections, and why gun control  laws
were an essential part of defining blacks as "non-citizens":
"Free  persons of color have never been recognized  here  as
citizens;  they  are  not entitled to bear  arms,  vote  for
members  of the legislature, or to hold any civil office."[24]
The  Georgia  Supreme  Court did agree  that  the  ordinance
jailing Cooper and Worsham for non-payment was illegal,  and
ordered their release, but the comments of the Court made it
clear  that their brave words in Nunn v. State (1846)  about
"the right of the people," really only meant white people.

  While  settled  parts of the South were in great  fear  of
armed  blacks,  on the frontier, the concerns  about  Indian
attack  often  forced relaxation of these rules.   The  1798
Kentucky Comprehensive Act allowed slaves and free blacks on
frontier  plantations "to keep and use guns,  powder,  shot,
and  weapons,  offensive  and  defensive."   Unlike  whites,
however, a license was required for free blacks or slaves to
carry weapons.[25]

  The  need  for  blacks  to  carry  arms  for  self-defense
included  not  only the problem of Indian  attack,  and  the
normal  criminal attacks that anyone might worry about,  but
the  additional  hazard  that  free blacks were in danger  of
being kidnapped and sold into slavery.[26]  A number of states,
including  Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, and Wisconsin,
passed  laws  specifically to prohibit  kidnapping  of  free
blacks, out of concern that the federal Fugitive Slave  Laws
would be used as cover for re-enslavement.[27]

  The  end of slavery in 1865 did not eliminate the problems
of  racist gun control laws; the various Black Codes adopted
after  the  Civil  War required blacks to obtain  a  license
before  carrying  or possessing firearms  or  Bowie  knives;
these   are  sufficiently  well-known  that  any  reasonably
complete history of the Reconstruction period mentions them.
These  restrictive gun laws played a part in the efforts  of
the  Republicans  to get the Fourteenth Amendment  ratified,
because  it  was difficult for night riders to generate  the
correct level of terror in a victim who was returning fire.[28]
It  does  appear,  however, that the  requirement  to  treat
blacks and whites equally before the law led to the adoption
of restrictive firearms laws in the South that were equal in
the  letter of the law, but unequally enforced.  It is clear
that the vagrancy statutes adopted at roughly the same time,
in  1866,  were  intended to be used  against  blacks,  even
though the language was race-neutral.[29]

  The  former states of the Confederacy, many of  which  had
  recognized the right to carry arms openly before the Civil
War,  developed  a very sudden willingness to  qualify  that
right.  One especially absurd example, and one that includes
strong  evidence of the racist intentions behind gun control
laws, is Texas.

  In  Cockrum v. State (1859), the Texas Supreme  Court  had
recognized  that there was a right to carry defensive  arms,
and  that  this  right was protected under both  the  Second
Amendment, and section 13 of the Texas Bill of Rights.   The
outer   limit  of  the  state's  authority  (in  this  case,
attempting to discourage the carrying of Bowie knives),  was
that  it could provide an enhanced penalty for manslaughters
committed  with  Bowie knives.[30]  Yet, by  1872,  the  Texas
Supreme  Court denied that there was any right to carry  any
weapon  for  self-defense under either the state or  federal
constitutions  -- and made no attempt to explain  or  justify
why the Cockrum decision was no longer valid.[31]

  What  caused  the dramatic change?  The following  excerpt
>from   that  same decision -- so offensive that no  one  would
dare  make such an argument today -- sheds some light on  the
racism that apparently caused the sudden perspective change:

  


 
  The  law under consideration has been attacked upon the
  ground  that  it  was  contrary to public  policy,  and
  deprived  the  people of the necessary means  of  self-
  defense; that it was an innovation upon the customs and
  habits of the people, to which they would not peaceably
  submit...   We  will not say to what extent  the  early
  customs  and habits of the people of this state  should
  be  respected and accommodated, where they may come  in
  conflict with the ideas of intelligent and well-meaning
  legislators.  A portion of our system of laws, as  well
  as  our  public morality, is derived from a people  the
  most  peculiar perhaps of any other in the history  and
  derivation  of  its  own system.  Spain,  at  different
  periods  of  the  world,  was  dominated  over  by  the
  Carthagenians, the Romans, the Vandals, the Snovi,  the
  Allani, the Visigoths, and Arabs; and to this day there
  are  found in the Spanish codes traces of the laws  and
  customs of each of these nations blended together in  a
  system  by  no  means  to be compared  with  the  sound
  philosophy  and  pure  morality of  the  common  law.[32]
  [emphasis added]



  This particular decision is more open than most as to  its
motivations,  but throughout the South during  this  period,
the  existing  precedents that recognized a  right  to  open
carry  under  state  constitutional  provisions  were  being
narrowed, or simply ignored.  Nor was the reasoning that led
to  these changes lost on judges in the North.  In 1920, the
Ohio  Supreme Court upheld the conviction of a  Mexican  for
concealed  carry of a handgun--while asleep in his  own  bed.
Justice   Wanamaker's   scathing  dissent   criticized   the
precedents  cited  by  the  majority  in  defense  of   this
absurdity:




 
  I  desire to give some special attention to some of the
  authorities   cited,  supreme  court   decisions   from
  Alabama,  Georgia, Arkansas, Kentucky, and one  or  two
  inferior court decisions from New York, which are given
  in  support of the doctrines upheld by this court.  The
  southern   states  have  very  largely  furnished   the
  precedents.  It is only necessary to observe  that  the
  race  issue there has extremely intensified a  decisive
  purpose  to entirely disarm the negro, and this  policy
  is evident upon reading the opinions.[33]



  While  not  relevant  to  the  issue  of  racism,  Justice
Wanamaker's closing paragraphs capture well the  biting  wit
and  intelligence  of  this jurist, who  was  unfortunately,
outnumbered on the bench:

  


 
  I  hold that the laws of the state of Ohio should be so
  applied  and so interpreted as to favor the law-abiding
  rather than the law-violating people.  If this decision
  shall stand as the law of Ohio, a very large percentage
  of  the  good  people  of  Ohio to-day  are  criminals,
  because  they  are  daily committing criminal  acts  by
  having  these weapons in their own homes for their  own
  defense.   The  only safe course for  them  to  pursue,
  instead  of  having the weapon concealed  on  or  about
  their  person, or under their pillow at  night,  is  to
  hang  the revolver on the wall and put below it a large
  placard with these words inscribed:


  


 
  "The  Ohio supreme court having decided that  it  is  a
  crime  to  carry a concealed weapon on one's person  in
  one's  home, even in one's bed or bunk, this weapon  is
  hung upon the wall that you may see it, and before  you
  commit  any  burglary or assault, please, Mr.  Burglar,
  hand me my gun."[34]



  There  are other examples of remarkable honesty  from  the
state supreme courts on this subject, of which the finest is
probably  Florida Supreme Court Justice Buford's  concurring
opinion in Watson v. Stone (1941), in which a conviction for
carrying a handgun without a permit was overturned,  because
the handgun was in the glove compartment of a car:




 
  I  know  something of the history of this  legislation.
  The  original Act of 1893 was passed when there  was  a
  great influx of negro laborers in this State drawn here
  for  the  purpose of working in turpentine  and  lumber
  camps.   The  same condition existed when the  Act  was
  amended  in 1901 and the Act was passed for the purpose
  of  disarming the negro laborers and to thereby  reduce
  the   unlawful   homicides  that  were   prevalent   in
  turpentine  and  saw-mill camps and to give  the  white
  citizens in sparsely settled areas a better feeling  of
  security.  The statute was never intended to be applied
  to  the white population and in practice has never been
  so applied.[35]



  Today is not 1893, and when proponents of restrictive  gun
control insist that their motivations are color-blind, there
is   a   possibility  that  they  are  telling  the   truth.
Nonetheless,  there  are some rather  interesting  questions
that  should be asked today.  The most obvious question  is,
"Why should a police chief or sheriff have any discretion in
issuing  a  concealed handgun permit?"  Here in  California,
even  the state legislature's research arm--hardly a nest  of
pro-gunners--has admitted that the vast majority  of  permits
to  carry  concealed handguns in California  are  issued  to
white  males.[36]  Even if  overt  racism is not an issue,  an
official may simply have more empathy with an applicant of a
similar  cultural background, and consequently be more  able
to relate to the applicant's concerns.  As my wife pointedly
reminded  a  police official when we applied  for  concealed
weapon  permits, "If more police chiefs were  women,  a  lot
more  women  would  get  permits,  and  be  able  to  defend
themselves from rapists."

  Gun  control  advocates today are not  so  foolish  as  to
openly  promote  racist laws, and so the question  might  be
asked  what  relevance the racist past of gun  control  laws
has.   One  concern  is that the motivations  for  disarming
blacks  in  the  past are really not so different  from  the
motivations for disarming law-abiding citizens today. In the
last  century, the official rhetoric in support of such laws
was  that "they" were too violent, too untrustworthy, to  be
allowed  weapons.  Today, the same elitist rhetoric  regards
law-abiding  Americans  in  the  same  way,  as   child-like
creatures in need of guidance from the government.   In  the
last  century, while never openly admitted, one of the goals
of  disarming blacks was to make them more willing to accept
various   forms   of  economic  oppression,  including   the
sharecropping system, in which free blacks were  reduced  to
an   economic  state  not  dramatically  superior   to   the
conditions of slavery.

  In   the  seventeenth  century,  the  aristocratic   power
structure  of  colonial Virginia found itself confronting  a
similar  challenge  from  lower class  whites.   These  poor
whites  resented how the men who controlled  the  government
used that power to concentrate wealth into a small number of
hands.  These wealthy feeders at the government trough would
have  disarmed poor whites if they could, but the threat  of
both Indian and pirate attack made this impractical; for all
white  men  "were  armed  and had to  be  armed..."   Instead,
blacks,  who  had occupied a poorly defined  status  between
indentured  servant  and slave, were reduced  to  hereditary
chattel  slavery, so that poor whites could be  economically
advantaged,  without the upper class having to give  up  its
privileges.[37]

  Today,  the  forces that push for gun control seem  to  be
heavily  (though  not  exclusively)  allied  with  political
factions  that  are  committed  to  dramatic  increases   in
taxation  on the middle class.  While it would be  hyperbole
to compare higher taxes on the middle class to the suffering
and deprivation of sharecropping or slavery, the analogy  of
disarming  those whom you wish to economically disadvantage,
has a certain worrisome validity to it.

  Another  point  to consider is that in the American  legal
system,     certain    classifications    of    governmental
discrimination are considered constitutionally suspect,  and
these  "suspect classifications" (usually considered  to  be
race  and  religion) come to a court hearing under a  strong
presumption  of  invalidity.  The reason for these  "suspect
classifications"  is  because  of  the   long   history   of
governmental  discrimination based on these classifications,
and   because   these  classifications  often   impinge   on
fundamental rights.[38]

  In much the same way, gun control has historically been  a
tool of racism, and  associated  with racist attitudes about
black violence.  Similarly, many gun control laws impinge on
that most fundamental of rights: self-defense.  Racism is so
intimately  tied  to the history of gun control  in  America
that  we  should  regard gun control  aimed  at  law-abiding
people as a "suspect idea," and require that the courts  use
the    same   demanding   standards   when   reviewing   the
constitutionality of a gun control law, that they would  use
with respect to a law that discriminated based on race.

[ ends ]

  Clayton   E.  Cramer  is  a  software  engineer   with   a
telecommunications manufacturer in Northern California.  His
first  book, By The Dim And Flaring Lamps:  The  Civil  War
Diary  of Samuel McIlvaine, was published in 1990.  For The
Defense  of Themselves And The State: The Original Intent  &
Judicial  Interpretation of the Right To Keep And Bear  Arms
will be published by Greenwood/Praeger Press in 1994.



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:17 PDT 1996
Article: 18723 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (b7192dbacdb7eb6c1752831cb61e1f87)
References: <832185184$18991@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 15 May 1996 15:50:48 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 20:03:17 GMT
Message-ID: <832190597$19671@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 15


In article <832185184$18991@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>Yes, of course -- such groups as the Christian White Patriots (North
>Carolina) don't adhere to any type of exclusivity based on religion
>("Christian") or race ("White"), do they?
>
>They just picked those words because they ... er, ah ... sounded nice,
>ddn't they?

There you go again Jim.  Attempting to smear the entire movement with the
actions of a minute fringe group.  Of course you would find that
impossible with a major organization like the Ohio Unorganized, but then
that's why you go at it this way, isn't it?


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:18 PDT 1996
Article: 18724 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (013cf40e457222a7f1687c8110154512)
References: <832187002$19137@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 15 May 1996 15:54:46 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!imci2!news.internetMCI.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 20:03:25 GMT
Message-ID: <832190605$19687@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 23


In article <832187002$19137@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>hus spake horseman@indirect.com (Scott Alan Malcomson):
>
>* Gee, yet more proof that anti-Semitism ISN'T a Patriot 
>* movement platform...
>
>"Fact is, the patriot movement HAS a lunatic fringe that goes by 
>anti-Semitism, ....."
>    --Scott Alan Malcomson (same day)
>  

C'mon Jim, is it that you can only think in black and white?  Last I
looked you are an academic.  A couple of academics published a racist book
called 'THE BELL CURVE' a year or so ago, and another, British racist
academic just had a racist book called THE G FACTOR pulled by the
publisher following protest.  Let's see, their racists, and their
academics, you're an academic, therefore you must be a racist.  Oh NOW I
see how this works!  Hey, maybe you and louie beam of the national
appliance could get together and chat - he just started posting here for
no apparent reason too.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:19 PDT 1996
Article: 18727 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (aba88501a4edc4132c572e0843d84dcb)
References: <832167204$17806@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
X-Newsreader: AOL Offline Reader
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 15 May 1996 12:49:25 -0400
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.wildstar.net!cancer.vividnet.com!tau.uac.net!uhog.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!atype.com!militia-request
Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:03:55 GMT
Message-ID: <832179835$18762@atype.com>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 32


In article <832167204$17806@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>To suggest that they were "direct linear antecedents of modern gun
control"
>you
>would have to prove that a) the laws appeared for the same reason (but
they
>did
>not); b) the laws were phrased the same way (but they were not); c) the
later
>
>ones stemmed from the earlier ones (they did not); and d) people referred
to 
>the earlier ones when making the later ones (they did not).

ah, mark, it's not often I get to nail you with two gotchas in one
message...to correct all of the above, see Cramer's THE RACIST ROOTS OF
GUN CONTROL  (authorized for electronic redistribution) which I have
reposted in two parts as FACTS MARK DOESN'T WANT YOU TO KNOW.  This is an
html file.  

>You are using designations which exist today, but did not exist in the
1920s.

This is simply not true, mark.  I suggest you talk to someone who knows
the history of high powered rifle competition shooting, or for that
matter, you might talk to someone with a background in military history,
which is where the terms rapid fire and slow fire were borrowed from.

nice try, no sale.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:21 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:03:44 GMT
Message-ID: <832179824$18746@atype.com>
Subject: Facts mark doesn't want you to know Part II (the references)
Lines: 114


Clayton   E.  Cramer  is  a  software  engineer   with   a
telecommunications manufacturer in Northern California.  His
first  book, By The Dim And Flaring Lamps:  The  Civil  War
Diary  of Samuel McIlvaine, was published in 1990.  For The
Defense  of Themselves And The State: The Original Intent  &
Judicial  Interpretation of the Right To Keep And Bear  Arms
will be published by Greenwood/Praeger Press in 1994.

NOTES


 Thomas  N. Ingersoll, "Free Blacks in a Slave  Society:
New Orleans, 1718-1812", William And Mary Quarterly, 48:2
[April, 1991], 178-79.
 Daniel H. Usner, Jr., Indians, Settlers, & Slaves in a
Frontier  Exchange  Economy: The  Lower  Mississippi  Valley
Before  1783, (Chapel  Hill,  N.C.:  University  of   North
Carolina Press, 1992), 139, 165, 187.
 Michael C. Meyer and William L. Sherman, The Course of
Mexican  History, 4th  ed., (New  York,  Oxford  University
Press: 1991), 216.
 Ingersoll, 192-200. Benjamin Quarles, The Negro in the
Making of America, 3rd ed., (New York, Macmillan Publishing:
1987), 81.
 Theodore Brantner Wilson, The Black Codes of the South
(University of Alabama Press: 1965), 26-30.
 Stanley  Elkins, Slavery, (Chicago,  University   of
Chicago Press: 1968), 220.
 Eric  Foner, ed., Nat Turner, (Englewood Cliffs,  N.J.,
Prentice-Hall: 1971), 115.
 Harriet Jacobs [Linda Brant], Incidents in the Life  of
a Slave  Girl, (Boston: 1861), in Henry Louis  Gates,  Jr.,
ed., The Classic Slave Narratives, (New York, Penguin Books:
1987), 395-396.
 Francis Newton  Thorpe, The  Federal   and   State
Constitutions, Colonial Charters, and Other Organic Laws  of
the  States,  Territories, and Colonies  Now  or  Heretofore
Forming   The   United   States  of  America,   (Washington,
Government Printing Office: 1909), reprinted (Grosse Pointe,
Mich., Scholarly Press: n.d.), 6:3424.
 Thorpe, 6:3428.
 Simpson v. State, 5 Yerg. 356 (Tenn. 1833).
 State v. Huntly, 3 Iredell 418, 422, 423 (N.C. 1843).
 State v. Newsom, 5 Iredell 181, 27 N.C. 250 (1844).
  State  v.  Newsom, 5 Iredell 181,  27  N.C.  250,  251
(1844).
 Thorpe, 5:2788.
  State  v.  Newsom, 5 Iredell 181,  27  N.C.  250,  254
(1844).
 State v. Huntly, 3 Iredell 418, 422 (N.C. 1843).
  State  v.  Newsom, 5 Iredell 181,  27  N.C.  250,  254
(1844).
  Early state constitutions limiting the right  to  bear
arms  to  citizens:  Connecticut (1818),  Kentucky  (1792  &
1799), Maine (1819), Mississippi (1817), Pennsylvania  (1790
-- but not the 1776 constitution), Republic of Texas (1838),
State of Texas (1845).
 Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243, 250, 251 (1846).
 Nunn v. State, 1 Ga. 243, 250, 251 (1846).
 Cooper and Worsham v. Savannah, 4 Ga. 68, 69 (1848).
  Cooper  and  Worsham v. Savannah, 4  Ga.  68,  70,  71
(1848).
 Cooper and Worsham v. Savannah, 4 Ga. 68, 72 (1848).
 Juliet E. K. Walker, Free Frank: A Black Pioneer on the
Antebellum  Frontier, (Lexington, KY,  University  Press  of
Kentucky:  1983), 21.  This is an inspiring biography  of  a
slave  who, through hard work moonlighting in the production
of  saltpeter (a basic ingredient of black powder) and  land
surveying, saved enough money to buy his wife, himself,  and
eventually  all  of  his children and grandchildren  out  of
slavery  -- while  fighting  against  oppressive  laws   and
vigorous racism.  Most impressive of all, is that he did  it
without ever learning to read or write.
 Walker, 73.
 Stephen Middleton, The Black Laws in the Old Northwest:
A Documentary  History,  (Westport,  Conn., Greenwood  Press:
1993), 27-32, 227-240, 309-314, 353-357, 403-404.
 Michael   Les  Benedict, The  Fruits   of   Victory:
Alternatives to Restoring the Union, 1865-1877,  (New  York,
J.B.  Lippincott  Co.:  1975), 87.   Francis  L.  Broderick,
Reconstruction  and the American Negro, 1865-1900,  (London,
Macmillan Co.: 1969), 21.  Dan T. Carter, When The  War  Was
Over: The Failure of Self-Reconstruction in the South, 1865-
1867, (Baton Rouge, Louisiana State University Press: 1985),
219-221.   Eric Foner, Reconstruction, (New York,  Harper  &
Row: 1988), 258-259.
 Foner, Reconstruction, 200-201.
 Cockrum v. State, 24 Tex. 394, 401, 402, 403 (1859).
 English v. State, 35 Tex. 473, 475 (1872).
 English v. State, 35 Tex. 473, 479, 480 (1872).
  State  v. Nieto, 101 Ohio St. 409, 430, 130  N.E.  663
(1920).
  State  v. Nieto, 101 Ohio St. 409, 436, 130  N.E.  663
(1920).
 Watson v. Stone, 4 So.2d 700, 703 (Fla. 1941).
 Assembly Office of Research, Smoking Gun: The Case For
Concealed  Weapon  Permit  Reform, (Sacramento,  State   of
California: 1986), 5.
 Edmund  S. Morgan, "Slavery and Freedom: The  American
Paradox,"  in Stanley N. Katz, John M. Murrin,  and  Douglas
Greenberg, ed., Colonial America: Essays in  Politics  and
Social  Development, 4th ed., (New York:  McGraw-Hill, Inc,
1993), 280.
 Thomas  G.  Walker, "Suspect Classifications", Oxford
Companion  to  the Supreme Court of the United States, (New
York, Oxford University Press: 1992), 848.




Express permission of the author was secured in creating and making
available on the Web this HTML-formatted copy.



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:22 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 17:04:07 GMT
Message-ID: <832179847$18778@atype.com>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 15


In article <832168999$18053@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Is it a matter for "debate"?  The public was aroused by the weapons in
the 
>hands of high-profile criminals and mobs; this prompted the first serious
>calls
>for gun control on the national level.
>
>

The public was aroused by a combination of media hype, and politicians
seeking to cover their proverbial rear ends about not being able to
control criminals...the same thing that's happening today.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:23 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 15 May 96 19:35:33 GMT
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Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 19


In article <832184297$18963@atype.com>, velte@io.com (Barrister) writes:

>Both the ADL and Southern Poverty Law Center are quite biased in their
>"studies" and reporting on the militia movement.  I commend you for
>citing your source so the reader can consider that when giving
>credence (or not) to the allegation; however, if this is the only
>source for that particular fact, then I'd say we don't really have
>much to rely upon.  

As far as I can tell, SPLC is a giant fundraising scam that makes it's
money off liberals.  That being said, and taking into account the fact
that the ADL is *seriously myopic* when dealing with the Constitutional
Militias, they (ADL) still do have a reasonably good handle on the more
active members of white supremacist organizations in North America.  To
the best of my ability to determine, Beam is a supremacist, and deserves
only the scorn and derision of our movement.  

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:24 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:03:06 GMT
Message-ID: <832212186$21050@atype.com>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 16


In article <832189748$19612@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>
>Whether there was merit or not to the public concern is not an issue.  I
was 
>not discussing the pros and cons of the gun control movement but merely
its 
>modern origins.
>
>

merit is always the issue.  and understanding the origins of anything is
impossible without a knowledge of the motivations behind the actions
taken.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:25 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:18:12 GMT
Message-ID: <832213092$21121@atype.com>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 34


In article <832190583$19655@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>
>Not only does it not happen often, but it doesn't happen this time
either.  
>Although there are some errors of interpretation and/or fact in Cramer's 
>article, the facts in it are basically sound, and do not conflict with a
>single
>thing I have said here, so far as I can tell.

Then you either didn't read it, or didn't comprehend it.  Gun Control in
the United States has never been about controling crime, it's been about
oppressing people.  Next time, try paying attention to what you read,
rather than simply assuming you already know what it says.


>>>You are using designations which exist today, but did not exist in the
>>1920s.
>>
>>This is simply not true, mark.  I suggest you talk to someone who knows
>>the history of high powered rifle competition shooting, or for that
>>matter, you might talk to someone with a background in military history,
>>which is where the terms rapid fire and slow fire were borrowed from.
>
>Ho hum.  I guess I might talk to myself then.  Stick to your own area of 
>expertise, whatever the heck it is.

Ah but you see, I am dealing in one of my areas of expertise...my ballpark
markie, and if you want to make nonstandard use of terminology then *you*
are the one who has to document it, not I.  I'm pretty sure I know where
you got your misinterpretation concerning the use of rapid fire, but I
want to see you admit it in front of everybody....


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:18:23 GMT
Message-ID: <832213103$21137@atype.com>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 18


In article <832200529$20372@atype.com>, devens@uoguelph.ca (David L Evens)
writes:

>
>And a certain ammount of conspiracy from the FBI, which was under mafia 
>control at that time.  (In fact, the FBI remained under mafia control 
>right into the 1970's, up until the time Hoover finaly ceased heading the

>FBI, and possibly continued for a period beyond then, as well.)

Hi David,

I've seen no documentation on this - can you recommend something to read
on the subject?

Best
Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:33:25 GMT
Message-ID: <832214005$21213@atype.com>
Subject: Re: bernard getz
Lines: 19


In article <832202291$20443@atype.com>, agore@primenet.com (Alan Gore)
writes:

>I just want hem all dead. Their very existence defiles our society.
>Why don't you militia people give up trampling the back-country
>underbrush stalking imaginary black helicopters? instead, come down
>into our cities and make it hell on Earth for the criminals. Then the
>country would regard you as folk heroes, just as it has Bernhard
>Goetz.

Yo! Alan!  militias are *local* organizations...why don't you form your
own in YOUR neighborhood...that's how this'll get cleaned up - when the
people who live there decide to take responsibility for their own
communities.

Arlin Adams

p.s.  that's one *great* psuedonym, by the way :-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:27 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 3:18:49 GMT
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Subject: Re: Helloooooo in there....
Lines: 12


In article <832173500$18443@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>The Federal Government, which stems from the people, does not wish to
wage a 
>civil war against them.
>
>

boowahahahahaha, *whew* oh mark, you should warn people before you start
posting jokes!


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 3:33:24 GMT
Message-ID: <832217604$21572@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 73


In article <832188860$19294@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>* Not to worry David, the morning after the revolution mark will *still*
>* besitting at his computer attempting to convince people we don't stand
>* a chance :-)
>*
>That may be true, Arlin.
>
>On the other hand, a very large number of your militiaboy "we's" will be
>dead.

undoubtedly.  There will be an unfortunate number of folks who will, in
the initial stages, attempt to go toe to toe with the fe(de)ral
blackshirts...rough estimate would be somewhere between 60-80% casualties
for those units in the first two weeks of such a confrontation. 
Fortunately, they will also be atritting the blackshirts at the same time.
 While this is occuring, the rest of us will be preparing for the shadow
war which must inevitably follow. 

If you want to know how *that* will go, Jim, read Mao, Che, and Giap - we
do. 

>Make no mistake about it, if the militaboys ever try to cork off their
>little "inevitable war," they--and you--will find out that the "sheeple"
>are, in fact, wolves in sheep's clothing.

doubtful.  look at the basic numbers - there are less than 2.4 million law
enforcement officers in the entire U.S.  and that's counting EVERYBODY -
federal, state, and local.  Given that there would be an inevitable
attempt at firearms confiscation concurrent with any such uprising all we
need to do is get 10 percent of the 70 million firearms owners to
*passively* resist - no shooting, just force the government to arrest and
process them, and we've already tied up every single LEO more than twice. 
Except of course, that wont be possible, since you and yours will still be
demanding police protection.

Lest you fantasize that the military will intervene, think again.  First
of all, the only time such a general confrontation would occur is if the
militias agreed that the situation had deteriorated to the point that
there was no Constitutional basis for the current situation.  Given that
to be the case, we would be certain to publicize the nature of our
grievances in such a way as to communicate our sole desire of returning to
*Constitutional* government -remember the oath of enlistment / oath of
office Jim?  'defend the Constitution of the United States'...that part. 
Combine that with the fact that, as long as SFU did not pull out, the
fe(de)ral government could not depend on *any* of it's special operations
units to function against us, AND the number of sympathizers within the
military (all of who will be encouraged to "Just Say No")...and you can
have no reasonable expectation of military intervention in that sort of
situation.

So the sheeple will either sit in their living rooms watching CNN and
being thankful that whatever is happening is going on some place else, or
they will go out and protest...of course the government will view any such
protest as support for us, so after the first two or three violent
repressions, I shouldn't expect there'll be much more of that, either.

>  
>But tell us again how, when the entire Confederacy couldn't beat the
>national government, an amorphous, un-coordinated, and leaderless group
of
>self-styled "militias" are going to do so.

Just did.  The point of all this is that, the reason such an uprising has
not occured so far has not been that it could not - it has simply not been
neccesary.  We CAN, we simply have chosen not to, up to this point.  Many
of us are working very hard to turn this country around so we wont *have
to* do this, but in the end, if it comes down to it, do not doubt for an
instant that we can, and will.  Questions?

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:29 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 3:48:03 GMT
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Subject: Re: Strategy and tactics for militia civil war
Lines: 14


In article <832188925$19424@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>If the militiaboys cork off their little "inevitable war," do you think
>the French will send the same stuff again?

no, but watch the Chinese, Iranians, Iraqis Serbs, Syrians, and every
other tinpot dictatorship all decide that the US government might *just*
be a little too preoccupied to notice them, and start pushing the limits. 
With all the downsizing of the last few years, the US military will be
busier than a one legged man in an ass-kicking contest....

Next question. 


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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 4:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832219384$21692@atype.com>
Subject: Re: A Call for Militiaman Assembly
Lines: 13


In article <832191483$19715@atype.com>, hk157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Janet
L. Littler) writes:

> Besides, the name of
>the game is to clean the mess without a civil war if that is possible,
>not start one.

Here! Here!  point for Janet!  Problem is, that BOTH sides have to want to
clean up the mess...right now, it would appear that a majority of the
other side, is still denying there even *is* a mess.

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 4:18:07 GMT
Message-ID: <832220287$21720@atype.com>
Subject: Re: A tiny chip for you
Lines: 9


In article <832202300$20459@atype.com>, bogar1@earthlink.net (Gen. JC
Christian) writes:

>but I suspect that  they were some kind of transmitter that broadcast my 
>brainwaves to the Red Chinese.

Careful tim, I think you just admitted complicity in the tien an men
massacre :-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:31 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 2:48:39 GMT
Message-ID: <832214919$21351@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Electoral Process???
Lines: 12


In article <832154583$17473@atype.com>, Richard Glen Cheek
 writes:

>. Why is it that the common 
>law courts, 'freemen', and neo-nazis get far more press than straight 
>militia types? I get the feeling it's 'cause they prefer to think of the 
>militias this way. It makes it easier to dehumanise them, then disregard 
>the militias arguments, complaints, or concerns.

Right on the money Richard!  If they did otherwise they'd run a serious
risk of the public starting to listen to what we have to say.


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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 3:03:10 GMT
Message-ID: <832215790$21409@atype.com>
Subject: Re: All Right, Contestants, Come on Down!
Lines: 9


In article <832166286$17752@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>5.  Al Sharpton

No, I don't think he's a fed, but if he ever DOES show up, we need to make
sure he get's introduced to louie of the national appliance...the two of
them deserve each other.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:34:19 GMT
Message-ID: <832246459$22722@atype.com>
Subject: Re: no more crosses
Lines: 15


In article <832211306$20992@atype.com>, allenpete@aol.com (Allen Pete)
writes:

>As I understand it, Unitarians aren't Christians. There is the old story
>of a Unitarian prayer going "To God, if there is a God, In Heaven, if
>there is a Heaver, etc"

Uh, Allen, there is such a thing as UU/C  which stands for
Unitarian-Universalist/Christian...trust me, any denomination that
includes us the regular Unitarian-Universalists (UU) and the pagans (UU/P)
is NEVER dull. :-)

Arlin
who just happens to be a UU/C


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:33:28 GMT
Message-ID: <832246408$22610@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 67


APPOLOGIES TO MY FRIENDS IN TEXAS, ESPECIALLY 1TLI, THE FOLLOWING EXAMPLES
INVOLVING YOUR FAIR STATE ARE USED ONLY FOR PURPOSES OF EDUCATIONAL
ILLUSTRATION WITH JIM.


In article <832209483$20878@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>No, actually I would "go at it" by pointing out FIRST that you, yourself,
>admit that there is racism, bigotry, and anti-semitism in the so-called
>militia movement;

As there is most places in our society, no more nor less.  I do NOT brand
American society as racist any more than I do the militias...nor any less,
for that matter.


>and SECONDLY by pointing out that the militias' use of the terms
>"Sovereign Citizen" or "Preamble Citizen" as opposed, and superior, to
>"14th Amendment citizen" (with little "c" as opposed to capital "C") is
>nothing more than sugar-coated racism, either willingly or unwittingly;

hmm, nobody I know or associate with uses those terms...there's a small
number of folks in the midwest and west who use the term 14th Amendment
Citizen in a derogatory way, and those I will not defend.  We are ALL 14th
Amendment Citizens.  As for the use of Sovereign Citizen, the most common
usage I've seen has been to delineate the fact that rights flow FROM the
individual TO the government, and not vice versa.  This term has been
misused by the same strange folks who use the term 14th Amendment Citizen,
but that includes exactly NO one that I know.  Personally I've neither
ever seen nor heard the term Preamble Citizen...where did you come by it?

Now let's look at Texas, which is I believe where you live:  You have the
klan, you have elements of AN,  there's a definite CI presence, you even
have folks like Otwell's radical racist anti-abortion folks down in the
southern part of the state.  Is it reasonable then to blame all Texans for
these things?  Of course not.  neither is it reasonable to blame the
entire militia movement for the idiocies of the few.

>and THIRDLY by pointing out that the Christian White Patriots are NOT THE
>SOLE EXAMPLE of racism by some group purporting itself to be a "militia";

even as the Texas klan is not the sole example of racism by some group
purporting itself to be Texans.

>and FOURTHLY by pointing out that the Texas Emergency Reserve of the Klan
>purported to be a so-called constitutional militia;

only by the klan.  The TER was in NO WAY a Constitutional Militia, in that
it specifically averred the Constitution.  Hmm, come to think of it, isn't
there a CSA presence down there - and don't *they* claim to be Texans too?


>and FIFTHLY by pointing out that some 30 or so other groups which also
>purport to be militias also use the moniker "White" in their name.

okay, now there's a number - 30.  Let's see, if I recall correctly, in the
testimony which revealed the compromise of the Tri-States communication
center, there was mention of the fact that they had identified about 900
militia units from message traffic.  Okay, I'll settle for admitting that
3% of all militia members are racist...what do you think the percentage is
for Texans?

>I can continue, if you like.

So can I, if you like.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:33:51 GMT
Message-ID: <832246431$22658@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 33


In article <832212236$21076@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>However, unlike your statements viz the "patriot movement," I am not
>stupid enough to say that racism ISN'T a platform in academia -- it's not
>a very well-subscribed platform, but it is, nonetheless, a platform with
>SOME people in academia (as witnessed by those you reference).
>
>However, you seem not capable of admitting--in any manner
whatsoever--that
>the same holds true about the militias; to whit:
>
>> .... anti-Semitism ISN'T a Patriot movement platform...

The truth is, Jim, that it ISN'T part of the Patriot platform, although
there is a tiny fringe element which has repeatedly pushed to make it
such...'course every time they push they find themselves talking to the
wind, and nobody else, but they do keep on talking...see my previous
response to your previous response in the Chechen militia thread for a bit
more on that.  

>* Oh NOW I see how this works!
>
>No, you apparently "see" very little.  You also apparently do not
"reason"
>with very much of the grey matter inside your skull.  The above problems
>were not a difficult to reason one's way through; one wonders why you
were
>apparently not capable of doing so.

Jim, I'm simply applying the same logic you are...only from my
perspective.


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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:48:17 GMT
Message-ID: <832247297$22905@atype.com>
Subject: Re: www.jollyroger.com MISSION SACRED DIVINITY: TOP SECRET. LIBERALS KEEP OUT...
Lines: 5


Elliot, 

next time, drink your beer AFTER you get done using the terminal in the
student union.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:36 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832252684$23164@atype.com>
Subject: Re: The Miracle of the Liberal Mind
Lines: 36


In article <832224815$21938@atype.com>, jdulaney@nntp1.best.com (John
Dulaney) writes:

>	The result of all this tenuous salivation is to give the public a
>test of readiness before allowing them a vote. 
>
>	Ah, ha! An idea!
>
>	All voters....
>	
>	must be able to read, reason, solve simple puzzles of logic and
>society, understand our system of government, the voting records of
>candidates, their platforms, their record of lying, have at-the-ready
>candidates histories, understand the currents events and issues of the
day
>and be unsullied by the feral and somatic germs of Liberal Thought. 
>
>	If this means only an intelligent, well-read and able electorate
>is left to make the practical decisions the Business of Governing
demands,
>I'll drink to that.

Hi John,

Every time a Poll Test has been instituted it has *inevitably* become a
method for the power mongers to prevent those who oppose them from voting.
 The trick in a democracy is accomplishing something positive based on the
votes of everyone, not just those who agree with us.  I would submit that
the US, in it's current form, is actually much too large for this to be
possible, but that's just my opinion.  In any case, I have to vote 'no' on
this one - not because I would not like to see the development of a more
informed electorate; but because history shows us that a Poll Test does
not accomplish this goal.

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <832254485$23251@atype.com>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 12


In article <832214883$21303@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>
>Mark's argument, short of narrowly defining "gun control" to mean the
>"control of automatic weaponry only," has little merit.
>  

For the second time in one 24 hour period, I find myself in agreement with
you.  We need to be careful about this stuff Jim, people could start
talking....:-)


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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 11:34:45 GMT
Message-ID: <832246485$22786@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 11


In article <832204095$20587@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>* the best of my ability to determine, Beam is a supremacist, 
>* and deserves only the scorn and derision of our movement.  
>
>Shouldn't be too hard to determine -- he himself has said that he is.

Thankyou Jim, but I was trying to force our mysterious Canadian poster to
decloak...


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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 14:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <832258085$23744@atype.com>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 20


In article <832254502$23283@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>
>Ho hum.  I originally posted four or so requirements needed to prove that
the
>
>Reconstruction era Southern state laws were somehow related to the first
push
>
>for gun control at the federal level in the 1920s and 1930s, and you
utterly 
>failed to meet those requirements.
>
>

I don't play to your strawmen mark.  the point here is to show up your
biases and thereby discredit you, NOT to play by your rules.  nice try, no
sale.


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Date: Thu, 16 May 96 13:48:39 GMT
Message-ID: <832254519$23300@atype.com>
Subject: Re: "Worst Nightmare"
Lines: 28


In article <832214893$21319@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>Yet, you *DO* perceive mark's statement that he is collecting information
>on the "militias" as being a threat.
>
>Even though collecting information on what one is writing about is
>fundamental to the task of the historian, and Mark is both an historian
>and writing a book on the "militias."

Look at it from my perspective, Jim:

he is openly hostile to the entire movement.
he concentrates on the fringe elements and then claims that they represent
the entire movement, despite numerous refutations (which he simply
ignores).
he poses as an expert on us, when he appears to know very little about the
mainstream militias; and uses that 'expert' position to spread his beliefs
to the media.
he slanders the entire movement in a global forum (this one) by repeated
attempts to denegrate who we are and what we stand for.

It's the old 'walks like a duck/talks like a duck' routine - he acts like
a threat, therefore I must assume that he is, until it is proven
otherwise.  Such proof has not yet been forthcoming.




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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 16 May 96 23:03:17 GMT
Message-ID: <832287797$617@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Feds Preparing For Nationwide Gun Sweeps?
Lines: 17


In article <832258992$23786@atype.com>, ewgardne@newstand.syr.edu (Edward
W. Gardner) writes:

>It is ileagal for the BATF to keep ANY records on us and the guns we own,

>except for those covered under the NFA (full auto's, short barrelled 
>shotguns).
>
>

That was codified in FOPA  (thats the Firearms Owners Protection Act). 
The way this is being gotten around in the Mass. case is that the state
*hired* the atf to convert the records *for the state*.  It *is* legal
under Mass. state law for the *state* to keep records, you see.  Now atf
*claims* that they are not keeping any copies of the stuff that they are
processing, but somehow I find that just a bit difficult to believe.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 0:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832293184$779@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Helloooooo in there....
Lines: 13


In article <832256283$23404@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>>boowahahahahaha, *whew* oh mark, you should warn people before you start
>>posting jokes!
>
>You see why people fear the militia movement now?  You have no sense of 
>reality.

ah well, then I guess everyone should be greatful that we *do* have a
sense of humor...



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:41 PDT 1996
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Posted-Date: 16 May 1996 21:37:32 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 1:49:31 GMT
Message-ID: <832297771$1112@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 27


In article <832097886$13766@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>In article <832094285$13431@atype.com>, AHABIZ  wrote:
>>
>>In article <832084402$12366@atype.com>,
mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
>>(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:
>>
>>>So, when do you propose to start your revolution against the
government?
>>
>>Why, mark, I didn't say *we* were going to start it.  When do you plan
to
>>start openly oppressing political dissidents?
>
>You conveniently left out the previous statement, in which your meaning
was 
>clear.

My previous sentence made reference to "the morning after the revolution".
 I neither stated nor implied who started the fight, only that we would
successfully conclude it, once it *was* started.  What irks you, I think
is that I responded to you with a question in the same vein as your own -
accusatory.  In other words, mark, I just gave you back what you gave me,
only from *my* perspective, instead of yours.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:42 PDT 1996
Article: 18934 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 17 May 1996 03:41:37 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 7:49:27 GMT
Message-ID: <832319367$2098@atype.com>
Subject: Re: I just read about Ruby Ridge. American militias have my sympathy
Lines: 12


In article <832265284$24034@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Well, you failed at that, too.  You merely posted something irrelevant to
the
>discussion.

I guess we'll just have to wait and see whether it was relevant...I
obviously think it was, and you obviously think it wasn't...guess we'll
have to see what others have to say about it.



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:42 PDT 1996
Article: 18944 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 3:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832303083$1338@atype.com>
Subject: Re: NWO expanding with Poland
Lines: 10


In article <832248183$22995@atype.com>, jbrolin546@aol.com (JBrolin546)
writes:

>
>The EU is the European subsidiary of the Global 2000 iniative:
>
>Germany's Greens and their Polish counterparts are joining forces.

yet another rejected X-Files script somehow wanders into the newsgroup....


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:43 PDT 1996
Article: 18960 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 17 May 1996 07:34:02 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 11:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832333683$2924@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 71


There you go again mikey,

>People who, in a war, gather information on the sizes, types
>and locations of military forces and provide that information
>to the enemy of those forces in any war are ALSO the enemy of
>those forces and generally must be killed, if possible.

Cheez, I thought I mentioned that you needed to stop getting your military
theory from paperback novels.  If you had any real knowledge of military
security practices, you would realize that neutralization of hostile
intelligence collectors RARELY involves killing anyone.  The reason for
this is quite simple: if you kill one off, another will replace them, and
that second one will be much harder to locate...thus much more effective
against you.  The point in these situations is to prevent the hostile
collector from reporting *accurate* information, thus preventing your
enemies from making accurate predictions concerning your future
activities.  That's ALL.  Probably a moot point in your case though, since
all you do is talk.


>  They
>might surrender, as they are merely scouts, unless they have
>disguised themselves as civilians or your soldiers to evade
>detection, in which case they are spies and merit execution
>without regard to surrender.

so instead of being able to turn them (i.e. get them to feed their bosses
the information you *want* them to have), you have a bunch of dead bodies
and the sure knowledge that another group of spies has already begun
infiltration into your area.  Brilliant.


> Anyone who acts on his own
>under the rules of war is at best an army of one, and more likely
>just a murderer.

Gee, where have I heard that before?  man it's deja vu all over again.

>  Being part of the
>government may or may not be a forfeiture of the right to live,

it is not.  

> In that case he would
>be an enemy agent and might be sniped the same as any soldier
>walking along a road - until he surrenders.

Hmm, unless YOU are planning on shooting him yourself mikey, you shouldn't
be making statements like this.  I'm not, none of the folks I know in Ohio
are, so I guess that leaves you.  Of course that's predicated on the
concept that you are capable of walking your talk - something of which
everyone here is rightly skeptical.  Personally, I don't think mark has
anything to worry about from your statements.

>Let me also state that some forces might legitimately consider
>themselves currently in a state of war.

Nope, and you know no sane person in this newsgroup supports that
supposition either.

>  Let
>government employees and agents realize that they can and will
>be associated with the other members of that organization and its
>stated, universal goals. 

Only by you.  look mikey, you can continue to post this anarchistic
nonsense just as long as you like, I'm still going to take it apart on you
every time I feel like it...the only thing you can do about it is leave.

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:44 PDT 1996
Article: 18985 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 18:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832358883$4379@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 20


In article <832335537$3123@atype.com>, rykan1@aol.com (RYK an1) writes:

>Do you think that if a rebellion started and we lost, that Pitcavage or
>any of the others wouldn't leap for joy at the though of watching us hang
>for our 'crimes".

Sorry, Lance, but the problem here is to *avoid* becoming like them.  Just
because *they* would act this way doesn't mean we have to do the same.  


>A few of them have said that they will be happy, to watch us hang. Same
>logic applies.

Now this is just me, but I am not comfortable about the concept of justice
without mercy.  There is too much of that now.

Best
Arlin



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:44 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 21:48:47 GMT
Message-ID: <832369727$5551@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 8


In article <832295883$924@atype.com>, devens@uoguelph.ca (David L Evens)
writes:

>Don't forget, Jim works for a profoundly racist organisation.

Hunh?  you lost me on that one David...I thought he was an academic down
Texas-way


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:45 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 19:18:28 GMT
Message-ID: <832360708$4751@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 79


In article <832318404$1776@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>>If you want to know how *that* will go, Jim, read Mao, Che,
>>and Giap - we do. 
>
>Already have.  With the exception of Vo Nguyen Giap's book, the others
>were "de jure" reading during the 60s, remember?

yep, now, do you think you can get *mark* to read them? :-)


>>doubtful.  look at the basic numbers - there are less than 2.4 million
>law
>>enforcement officers in the entire U.S.  and that's counting EVERYBODY
>>- federal, state, and local.  Given that there would be an inevitable
>>attempt at firearms confiscation concurrent with any such uprising all
we
>>need to do is get 10 percent of the 70 million firearms owners to
>
>Counting chickens before they hatch is rather risky business.

ayep that's true.  However expecting such a confiscation to be 90%
successful is more than slightly optimistic as well.  The odds are in our
favor here.


>>Except of course, that wont be possible, since you and yours will still
>be
>>demanding police protection.
>
>Again, your rhetorical slavering blinds you to certain very real facts to
>the contrary.

hmm, care to cite a couple?


>>Lest you fantasize that the military will intervene, think again.
>
>Do tell.  I guess you are unaware of the infamous survey conducted my
some
>military-type who was writing his Masters' thesis.

oh, indeed I am.  It showed that 1/3 of the respondents, mostly junior
enlisted people, *would* take up arms against the civilian populace, and
2/3 would not.  Even the Marines consider a unit to be unable to operate
at 1/3 strength.


>The moment you and/or your militiaboy brethren begin a shooting war,
>despite whatever jingo-ism you label it with, the fact remains that most
>people, military included, will be quite cognizant of the fact that you
>have de facto begun an insurrection, rebellion, etc. and I have little
>doubt that the military will shoot some of the militiaboys like the
>traitors that they are, some will receive pardons like after the Civil
>War, and hopefully the gene pool of America will have been cleansed of
the
>congenital stupidity that seems to be rampant within the so-called
>"militia movement."

hmm, you seem to ignore the basic issue that this is a resistance
movement...we don't intend to *start* such a conflict...just finish it. 
Given that, once we are attacked the case for self defense becomes
predominant.  As for cleansing the gene pool, well, even if the desire for
Liberty was genetic, are you sure you'd want to get rid of it?

>If you don't believe in that scenario, be my guest as starting your
little
>"inevitable war."  

Again, Jim, *we* aren't going to start it.


>So, take your best shot, so to speak.

oh we shall, never fear.

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:46 PDT 1996
Article: 19025 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 20:03:22 GMT
Message-ID: <832363402$5098@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 16


In article <832318395$1760@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>>>Thankyou Jim, but I was trying to force our mysterious Canadian 
>>>poster to decloak...
>
>Huber?  I doubt that he is Beam, writing incognito.  I've read some of
the
>stuff that Beam has written/spoken.  As strange as Beam is, he is still
>far more articulate than is Huber.

uh no, although they only have half a brain between them, I'm sure huber
and beam are two different people.  The post I was responding to was
someone *else* writing from canada...I thought we had a 3rd nazidiot
decloaking, you see.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:47 PDT 1996
Article: 19035 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 17 May 1996 18:13:27 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 17 May 96 22:20:32 GMT
Message-ID: <832371632$6157@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 158


Hi again Jim,

>I think it's pretty clear that there is a higher incidence of racism in
>the so-called "militias" and their kindred than in society in general.

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that the perception of racism is MUCH
greater than the actual racism I've encountered among militia members.  I
certainly have *not* run into any supremacist types among the CM.  In some
monocultural areas I've encountered racism, but only in the populist
context of people who are leery of folks who 'aren't from around
here'...in a monocultural environment it's easier to tell if someone fits
that category, if they also *look* different.  In other words, the only
racism I've encountered in the movement is the same background noise sort
which exists in mainstream American Society.

>At the same time, I also think it is not just a little bit hypocritical
of
>American society at large to blame certain groups for behaviour that also
>exists in the general society.

Agreed!

>* hmm, nobody I know or associate with uses those terms...there's a small
>* number of folks in the midwest and west who use the term 14th Amendment
>* Citizen in a derogatory way, and those I will not defend.
>
>The "Sovereign Citizen v. 14th Amendment citizen" exists on every
>militiaboy web page or BBS that I have contacted -- which is over 500 of
>them, at last count, in all regions of the country.

well, you've certainly seen more web pages than I have, I doubt that I
have more than 60-70 bookmarked that are current.  Since I communicate
primarily via the net, my contact with BBS's is also obviously more
limited than your own...doubt that I've run into more than 30 or so that
were uniquely militia oriented...I dunno do you count networked bbs's
(such as PRN) each as a seperate entity, or as a reflection of the group,
or both?

I guess my response to this would be twofold:

1.  As regards web pages, the simple fact is that *anybody* can publish a
personal web page, whether or not they actually represent anyone other
than themselves is another matter entirely.  A couple of examples you may
be able to find with a search engine include the 'GLOCK4' pseudogang page
and the infamous 'CNG' page from last months NBC News smear job on the
militias.  Both of these pages are run by small groups (3-4) of teenage
wannabes who apparently have little or no connection to anyone else.  Hmm,
last I looked there's even a pseudomilitia web page run by a couple of
kids at the USAF Academy High School...unless their computer teacher has
caught it by now and taken it down....

Also, the web no more profiles the militia movement than it provides an
accurate reflection of American society at large.  If I were to judge the
US by what I see on the web, I'd say that we are all constantly buying
computer equipment, ordering fancy food and gifts through the mail, taking
activist stances on political and social issues, tend to hold libertarian
views, and have at least a Bachelor's degree.  As a registered
Libertarian, I can say that at least one component of that last statement
is provably false...so are the rest, most likely.  A profile of the
movement drawn from these resources is no more probably accurate than that
of the American public.  

2.  Since I don't regularly deal in the BBS world, my only question to you
there would be if you were counting seperate BBS's that were networked? (I
mentioned PRN, as the one I'm most familiar with)  If so, how much of the
traffic you saw on each BBS originated there, and how much originated
elsewhere on the network?  Please to remember that militias are inherently
*local* organizations.  If a majority of a certain type of BBS traffic
originated on one or two (or even 8 or 10) nodes on a network and then
circulated throughout the rest, that traffic would certainly not represent
militias which existed in the areas associated with the other nodes....

>That you personally are not aware of it, or do not associate yourself
>with it, does not necessarily entail that it is not a MAJOR COMPONENT of
>the "platform" of the so-called "militia movement."

hmm, well, I'd remind you once again that once again that this is a
movement based on *local* control.  To the extent that neither I nor
anyone else can speak for all of the militias, there may be some out there
for whom it is a major component.  However, to the extent that my contacts
exist throughout a major portion of this country, I can categorically
state that it has never even been considered as a component of any such
platform.  That's about the best I can give you on that one Jim.


>* but that includes exactly NO one that I know.  Personally I've neither
>* ever seen nor heard the term Preamble Citizen...where did you come by
>it?
>
>From a number of the militiaboy BBSes and web pages.

this one honestly has me stumped - if you could email me the URL's of a
couple of these sites, I'd like to take a look at them...


>* Now let's look at Texas, which is I believe where you live
>
>You "believe" incorrectly.  I live in New Orleans; I used to live in
>Texas.

ooooooooops sorry!  my error!

>On the contrary, it is reasonable to blame all Texans -- to the extent
>that they tolerate such anti-constitutional ideas.  If they do not
>tolerate them, do not defend them, and seek to weed them out, then -- no,
>it is not reasonable to blame them

ah, my point exactly!


>* neither is it reasonable to blame the entire militia movement for the
>idiocies
>* of the few.
>
>On the contrary, it is reasonable to blame all militiaboys -- to the
>extent that they tolerate such anti-constitutional ideas.  If they do not
>tolerate them, do not defend them, and seek to weed them out, then -- no,
>it is not reasonable to blame them.

again exactly.


>However, you and your brethren do not do so.  In fact, you claim that
what
>are obvious threats are not threats at all, and what are not threats are,
>in fact, threats.

That's an awfully general statement, Jim.  In point of fact we have been
and are continuing to work at filtering the racism out of the movement,
even as society at large is doing the same throughout the country. 
Because of our emphasis on individual rights, I would submit that we are
AT LEAST on par with the rest of the US, and probably slightly ahead of
most areas from which we draw our membership.  As for defining what is,
and is not, a threat, I'm afraid I'm going to have to ask for some
specifics.  Validity of a threat is inherently a value judgement,
therefore the only way to discuss this issue would be to examine some
specific instances and look at the underlying values which led us to our
decisions.  Make sense?


>And, in my opinion, you DO deserve the scorn, and the blame, in such
>instances.

w-e-l-l you're certainly allowed your opinion, but I would submit from the
above, that it may very well be based on a biased sample.


>>I can continue, if you like.
>
>* So can I, if you like.
>
>Please do.  It's one of the few semblances of something other than
>bucolic, doe-eyed notions of revolution, etc. that I've seen hereon.

over to you :-)

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:48 PDT 1996
Article: 19060 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:18:19 GMT
Message-ID: <832432699$7778@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Req:  Patriot music
Lines: 12


In article <832367891$5401@atype.com>, bogart1@earthlink.net (Tim Hill)
writes:

>70% of American women have never had an emotionally
>     satisfactory relationship with a Republican
>                   --TV Nation Poll
>
>

gee, and from what they've told me, all Democrats do is talk about it...no
wonder we libertarians get all the women. :->


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:49 PDT 1996
Article: 19062 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:20:05 GMT
Message-ID: <832432805$7972@atype.com>
Subject: Re: "Worst Nightmare"
Lines: 26


In article <832318463$1872@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>
>>It's the old 'walks like a duck/talks like a duck' routine - he acts 
>>like a threat, therefore I must assume that he is, until it is proven
>>otherwise.  Such proof has not yet been forthcoming.
>
>Nor has any proof  been forthcoming that he is doing anything other than
>just pissing you off.
>
>Explain to me each and every instance where something that Pitcavage has
>said has altered your life in some empirically measurable terms.

Jim, ya gotta calm down man...you just ran right over into the next
message...if you go back and read what I wrote you'll notice that I said
that since he is hostile he must be presumed to be a threat until proven
otherwise.  True, he may very well be a hostile wimp with no more than a
computer and an attitude, but over the internet that's rather difficult to
ascertain, now isn't it?

really..just take a few deep breaths, that's it, relax...you made a
mistake, but it's okay...I'm pretty sure you're mature enough to admit it.

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:49 PDT 1996
Article: 19067 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:33:22 GMT
Message-ID: <832433602$8094@atype.com>
Subject: Re: War Veteran Wannabes: the Suicide of Adml Boorda
Lines: 12


In article <832314783$1593@atype.com>, amerwar@earthlink.net (The Amer War
Lib'y) writes:

>                   VIETNAM VETERAN PHONIES
>
>Since The American War Library's establishment on the Internet
>approximately one year ago,

I herewith nominate these guys for bad taste troll of the month.

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:50 PDT 1996
Article: 19080 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:20:18 GMT
Message-ID: <832432818$8004@atype.com>
Subject: Re: "Worst Nightmare"
Lines: 91


In article <832318450$1856@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>No, Arlin, let's look at it from a perspective of real REALITY.

oh, I agree, let's.


>You claim Mark is a threat, because he collects information.  Along coms
>Bebee (or whatever is his name), and he overtly threatens Mark, and you
>say, "no, it wasn't."

Harry Bibee didn't threaten mark.  The only person who has openly
threatened mark, to my recollection, has been mikey, whom no one
*including mark* takes seriously.  The 'threat' mark was whining about was
the militia Declaration issued back in April.  You jumped into the middle
of a *long* multithread discussion here Jim, without checking back to see
what was actually going on.  Reality is that mark becomes nearly
hysterical whenever anything is posted that even appears to imply that the
militias are capable of taking effective action.  Reality is, ya done been
duped by mark's hysteria.


>The ONLY THING that differentiates, in your book, is whether or not the
>respective participant happens to be of your same persuasion.

I would say that *seems* to be the reason you committed yourself to this
erronious course of action...

>>he is openly hostile to the entire movement.
>
>So friggin' what?  He does have that right, doesn't he?

certainly he has the right.  and I have an equal right to be hostile right
back...that's why he and I get into it so much.  

>Or, is the First Amendment actually the First Casualty in Militia World?

No, but let me throw that back at you and ask if it's the First Casualty
of the anti-militia world...as it might seem in this case?

>>It's the old 'walks like a duck/talks like a duck' routine .....
>
>And, of course, Bebee's (or whatever is his name) duck is actually a
>canary.

Mr. Bibee is a very talented person, but can't ever remember hearing of
him turn a duck into a canary.  WHEW!  Is that legal??

>Typical militaboy bullshit.

typical blind antimilitia prejudice.


>Mark doesn't slander you, Arlin.  You slander yourselves -- by not
>possessing sufficient enough personal integrity and ethics to admit that
>there are some really crazy mother fuckers in your midst and that they,
in
>fact, DO manifest themselves as a threat -- not only to people like Mark,
>but to yourselves.

uh, would you say Billy Jeff, Aunt Janet, and Uncle Louie (Freeh) are on
your side?  Do you have the personal integrity to admit one is a political
hack and the other two have strong neofascist tendencies?  There are crazy
people on *all* sides of the issue.  The above mentioned DO manifest
themselves as threats to the liberties of both us AND you.  What then do
you do for yourselves by ignoring these problems?

>Since you're enamored of old adages, here's you one you might pause to
>reflect upon:
>
>"You lay down with dogs, you get up with fleas."

precisely my point here Jim.


>If you people don't start portraying yourselves as reasonable people and
>cleaning out the lunatics in your midst, you aren't going to win any
>"inevitable war or anything else, for that matter, except the loathing of
>the entire country.

precisely my point back to you here, Jim.


>And, that is not "patriotic" of you, it is simply stupid.

Sauce for the goose, Jim.

Arlin



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:51 PDT 1996
Article: 19088 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 18 May 1996 04:41:04 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:18:26 GMT
Message-ID: <832432706$7794@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 22


In article <832371531$5995@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>No, Arlin, the REAL truth is that ALL groups in society have to suffer
the
>slings and arrows of their bad apples -- be that group teenagers, the
>government, or the militias.

certainly any group may have 'bad apples', what is uncalled for is when a
small number of bad apples are mischaracterized as representing the entire
group.  That's been my point, all along.

>
>You militiaboy prima donna's are, and will be, no different  -- and to
the
>extent that you refuse to acknowledge that, it is YOU, not the rest of
the
>world, that is out of touch with reality.

we don't refuse to acknowledge the existance of this sort of bias - heck
most of us deal with it every day.  Our reality is very much intact.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:52 PDT 1996
Article: 19096 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 15:20:33 GMT
Message-ID: <832432833$8036@atype.com>
Subject: Re: What is your view on women in the military?
Lines: 18


In article <832327408$2568@atype.com>, bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les
Griswold) writes:

>
>You can say THAT again!  Why, read the string about the genital exam of
59
>12-year old girls!
>
>

two questions les:

1.  just how long did *YOU* spend in the military?
2.  other than the fact that it threatens your supremacist views
concerning sex roles, what's your problem?

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:52 PDT 1996
Article: 19107 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 18 May 1996 12:54:54 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 17:03:10 GMT
Message-ID: <832438990$8790@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 12


In article <832431791$7476@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

> That is well established..The burden of proof is upon those who claim 
>the neo-militia movement is *not* the armed wing of the
>Christian Patriot  movement. 

sorry frankie, no sale.  Remember that militias are all local
organizations?  each one is a part of the community in which it lives.  to
claim that they are all the 'armed wing' of anything sounds a lot like a
conspiracy theory to me.  


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:53 PDT 1996
Article: 19108 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 17:03:18 GMT
Message-ID: <832438998$8806@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? -->>
Lines: 17


In article <832430897$7344@atype.com>, jdulaney@nntp1.best.com (John
Dulaney) writes:

>
>	Is there a Real International Jewish Plot to Rule the World?
>	~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>	I found the (part 1 of 3 parts) article below in my mail box last
>	week.

Hi John,

This is what passes for propaganda in the minds (I use the term loosly) of
the nazidiots.  Have you considered flaming the sender?  That may be the
only sure way to end this nonsense. 

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:54 PDT 1996
Article: 19117 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 18 May 1996 12:41:47 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 16:48:12 GMT
Message-ID: <832438092$8732@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 52


In article <832429084$7245@atype.com>, roncain@ix.netcom.com (ronald p.
cain ) writes:

Hi Ron,

>Once one side or the other realizes it is losing, they will do anything
>to win. Take a look at the recent atrocities in Bosnia for an example,
>if you don't agree.

It might be more accurate to say that some people on either side will be
tempted to to anything to win...which is why maintaining discipline in
defensive situations is so critical.  The serbs did not do so, and we see
the results.  This doesn't justify what they did, and it does make their
commanders culpable for the crimes of their subordinates.  

>Rules of engagement, gentlemen's agreements, Geneva Conventions,
>they're nice to hear and pretty to read-but when the talk stops and the
>fighting begins, humans are capable of anything and everything.

*Some* humans are, most aren't.  Studies from WWII show that in large
scale engagements, even in experienced units, only about half of the
troops even fire their rifles (for the Marines it's about 2/3).  Many
Americans have real problems with taking the life of another human being,
even in a combat environment.  Expecting most people to engage in
unethical conduct, except under the most extreme survival situations, is
probably a bad bet.  More to the point, one of the primary differences
between good guys and bad guys is that the good guys realize the truth of
the old adage "Just because you can, doesn't mean you should".  

>Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that should a revolution occur,
>the fighting will break promptly at 10a.m. for tea every morning.

No, and that's not the point of having rules of engagement.  Even setting
aside the moral and ethical imperatives behind them, there are some very
practical advantages to such rules.  The first, and most important is that
we can't win without the support of the general population.  Support we
will not have, if we develop a reputation for random violence against
noncombatants.

 Additionally, the enemy will seek to build a perception that we are
violent immoral animals - that's a standard propaganda tactic.  To ignore
it, or pretend it has no affect, is to aid the enemy in their task. 
Rather, we must clearly communicate through our actions that we are above
such things AT ALL TIMES.  That is the only effective countermeasure to
this sort of propaganda.

Without rules of engagement we will at best loose, and at worst become the
same as those whom we fight.  I don't find either choice acceptable, do
you?

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:54 PDT 1996
Article: 19118 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 16:48:19 GMT
Message-ID: <832438099$8748@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 14


In article <832431783$7460@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>J> There is little reason why anyone should have heard of CI
>J> before  the mid-/late- 1980 unless they were members of the
>J> radical right  or studied the radical right. 
>
>   The media has an agenda to keep this stuff 'under the rug'.
>Notice how it wasn't until the OKC bombing that the media
>started paying attention to militias?

okay, this has me intrigued - why would the media seek to suppress
information concerning a group as bizzare as the ci types?


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:55 PDT 1996
Article: 19121 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 17:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832439883$8834@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Resistance, not offense, is the word for today...
Lines: 15


In article <832430947$7434@atype.com>, sybesma@netcom.com (Steven D.
Sybesma) writes:

>
>I believe the word we are searching for is 'RESISTANCE', by peaceful
means
>first, but if it becomes necessary due to an over-stepping, belligerent
>Federal government, THEN we will have both the MEANS as well as the moral
>authority to defend ourselves from its tyranny.

Steve, I do believe you've captured the essence of the movement right
there!  Well said!

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:56 PDT 1996
Article: 19127 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 19:03:28 GMT
Message-ID: <832446208$9156@atype.com>
Subject: Re: What is your view on women in the military?
Lines: 58


In article <832441686$8905@atype.com>, bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les
Griswold) writes:

>> 1.  just how long did *YOU* spend in the military?
>
>Two years.  Not that it's particularly relevant.  I don't want a
>representative cross-section of the population under arms if we get
>invaded; I want the BEST POSSIBLE PEOPLE to be defending me (that I
>consider myself best able to defend myself is axiomatic).

Hmm, in part that would seem to reflect the differences in traditions
between British Commonwealth Culture (I realize you're in Canada, but I'm
generalizing here) where there was an emphasis on a more professional army
and American culture, which (up until recently) went out of it's way to
promote an army which contained a majority of citizen-soldiers. 
Experience shows that, in a capitalist society such as our own, the
military gets the BEST AVAILABLE PEOPLE.  Having served in a number of
units which were 50% female, I can state from experience that integrating
women into the military simply increased the likelihood that the best
available people would in fact be there.  I can also state from experience
that after a week or so in the field, the *last* thing anybody is
concerned about is sex...sleep, yes, food, certainly, shelter, yep, that
too, but much of anything else was just not relevant to the situation.


>
>> 2.  other than the fact that it threatens your supremacist views
>> concerning sex roles, what's your problem?
>
>What do my, or any other, supremacist views have to do with the facts of
>biology, except that they largely agree with observation?  I think you're
>champing at the bit to go on a "Natsee-bash".  Perhaps to prove yet again
>that you militia wannabes AREN'T "Natsees"?

actually, the term I usually use for you guys is 'nazidiots' but I was
trying to be polite.  Your views on biology are as warped as everything
else in your philosophy.  Now don't get me wrong, I understand that your
primary concern is avoiding genetic crossbreeding, so you are forced to
produce large families, thus condemning any women who buy into your
spending a good percentage of their time pregnant.  However, attempting to
justify that in biological terms is at best nonsensical.  You're trying to
out produce all of the rest of us, Les, and *that* is a simple numerical
impossiblity.  In the meanwhile, however, you are forced to maintain rigid
gender roles within your own groups, in order to try to maintain group
stability.

Hmm, thinking about it that way, it's no wonder you supremacist types are
so terrified by the Constitutional Militias - we don't discriminate by
gender, which means we will ALWAYS be able to field more armed combatants
than you will, and we will ALWAYS have the best available people doing the
job, regardless of the sexuality...something you will never be able to
say.  

ah well, gotta go, I'm helping teach the range session of a personal
protection course this afternoon.  Not to worry, half the class is female,
and at least 1/3 of the class is always made up of ethnic minorities...and
of course you know what I teach them about folks like you. :-> 


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:57 PDT 1996
Article: 19129 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 18 May 96 19:03:13 GMT
Message-ID: <832446193$9124@atype.com>
Subject: Re: HOW MANY KINDS OF MILITIA ARE THERE???
Lines: 15


In article <832433592$8078@atype.com>, jd11b@aol.com (JD11B) writes:

> Citzens arrests are
>usually restricted to  crimes committed in their presence or in similary
>narrow circumstances. Certainly no magistrate I've ever heard of has
given
>an arrest warrant to a civilian so he can arrest the accuesed in his
home.

Guys, I know next to nothing about this topic, but how are folks like
bounty hunters and such covered?  Or if they're serving a warrant, are
they considered officers of the court?

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:25:57 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832485783$11716@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 81


Hi again Ron,

> But what do your
>think the patriots are going to do once the desperate fanantics in
>Washington drop Fuel-Air weapons or BLU-82's on them. And that's the
>short list. 

Actually if somebody dumps an FAE on them, they're gonna die, but we'll
get back to that in a minute.  Ron, they're going to react the way people
have been reacting ever since there was indirect fire artillery and people
could shell each other from miles away.  Some of them are going to freak,
some of them are going to go catatonic, and the majority of them are just
going to live through it and keep going.  HOWEVER this is one of those
times where unit morale and unit discipline are absolutely critical...and
MUST be enforced.  The issue will be whether the leaders have been and are
capable of continuing doing so.

>Fuel-Air weapons, for those who don't know, are like Napalm bombs that
>can cover LARGE areas.

Technically, it ain't a flame weapon (although it will do a fairly good
job of scorching everything in it).  FAE are basically similar in effect
to dumping a leaky LP gas canister onto something, waiting a minute or
two, and then throwing in a match.  The flame is really secondary, what
kills is the massive overpressure caused by the explosion.  That
overpressure crushes stuff  on  the ground, as well as any place the
pressure can get into...bunkers, tunnels, and such as well as unsealed
armored vehicles...the thing about using FAE is that the effect is
measured in cubic acres...and anybody who has seen the effects of one will
recognize it instantly.  Using that against an 'insurrection' will be as
good as admitting to the world that they've lost control of the
situation...which will be exactly the LAST message they would want to get
out.  Probability of use, except in very remote areas is extremely
low...and if anybody *does* get hit with one, THEY wont be around to get
pissed off.  


>BLU-82's were used in Viet Nam to clear landing zones out of the
>jungle. They were also dropped in the Persian Gulf War to demoralize
>the enemy. These suckers weigh 15,000 pounds and are commonly dropped
>by C-130 because they won't fit  in/under a B-52.

ayep, and the last thing I'm gonna do if I see C-130's starting to come in
low and slow is stand underneath their flight path, you know?

Both of your points DO illustrate one critical fact - because the weapons
systems you've mentioned require advanced planning and targetting (one
doesn't just load up a bunch of cargo planes with BLU's and have them fly
around randomly :-) )  It is absolutely critical to remember that a
resistance force must *never* try to hold on to a specific piece of
terrain...safety is in avoiding detection, continuous movement, and
engaging in combat only when it is to your advantage to do so.  Another
point here is that neither of these weapons systems, nor any other area
weapon can be used in close proximity to forces from the same side.  The
NVA had a saying that went "The only way to defeat an American is to grab
him by his belt".  What that meant was that only in close combat were they
fighting on nearly equal terms - when the US military couldn't bring their
superior weapons technology into play for fear of hitting their own
troops.  This example bears remembering.

>I know how guys are. Once word gets out that the Federal thugs have
>committed any atrocity, people are going to want PAYBACK. It's only
>human nature. You may be thinking that good militia commanders won't
>let their troops do that. Maybe so, but there are and will be plenty
>more cells of patriots trusting noone and doing what feels right to
>them. I believe the phrase "fog of war" applies here.

We may well have to arrest and try people on our own side, I don't think
there's any question about it.  None the less, the only way to
minimize/prevent abuses is to establish and enforce a policy of ZERO
tolerance...there are no alternatives.

>I really pray that our capital full of socialistic fools stops and
>realizes what it has been doing to our country before it is too late.
>But our country has turned its collective back on God, and it's
>beginning to look like we're on the downside of rise and fall.

Amen to that, my friend, amen to that.

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:03:18 GMT
Message-ID: <832485798$11748@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Militia Watchdog
Lines: 11


In article <832465160$10747@atype.com>, sybesma@netcom.com (Steven D.
Sybesma) writes:

>
>You ever get the feeling this guy's trying to sell refrigerators in
Alaska?
>
>What a dumb nut!

ice cubes to eskimoes, sand to Hawaiians, yep, that's about it.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:34:00 GMT
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Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 19


In article <832453417$9804@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>Sorry, Arlin, no sale.  Samuel Sherwood's United States Militia
>Association does purport to be a "national militia" and does, in fact,
>count several of your so-called "local" militias under its national
>penumbra.
>
>Since you're big into claiming maturity to admit errors, please do so.

Jim, even the fbi admits there are over 900 seperate militia units,
whatever Sam Sherwoods folks may claim, they represent no more than a tiny
fraction of that number.  In any case they are still local units, and are
still under local control.  Again, you need to start seeing individual
cases Jim, until you do, you're going to keep trying to paint an extremely
complex picture as one geometric form, and it just don't work that way. 
The only error here is your continued attempt at gross overgeneralization.



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 7:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832492083$12112@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 17


In article <832453449$9868@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>
>Why are the militia newsgroups so popular with white supremacists and
>neo-nazis?

I guess because they're too stupid to realize we're their enemies.


>And, why do Canadians think they really have anything meaningful to say
>about America's domestic problems -- after all, they haven't exactly done
>real well solving their own.

I have no idea. 



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 7:48:11 GMT
Message-ID: <832492091$12128@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Chechan Militia
Lines: 23


In article <832448005$9314@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>A while back, some amongst your militiaboy brethren sought to have me
>expelled from this newsgroup for my anti-militia statements, even though
I
>was (and still am) speaking directly to the issue of the hypocrisy of
>ethics amongst the militiaboys.

actually, you're speaking to your own inability (or unwillingness) to
understand what we're about...that does get old...but you also make a good
foil, so I certainly wouldn't vote to expell you.


>Not long thereafter, some little militiaboy twit from Texas came on and
>said that he could come over here and "take care of my ass."
>
>NOT one of you great patriots moved for HIS expulsion.

you're right - we flamed him, and made it  clear that was unacceptable. 
In other words we corrected the problem.  We've been correcting you for
quite a while now...someday you may prove as responsive as he was.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 8:33:30 GMT
Message-ID: <832494810$12253@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 57


In article <832453431$9836@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>Get real, Arlin.  There will never be any attempt at a confiscation of
>firearms, nor anything even remotely near.  Banning 20 or so types of
>firearms does not even begin to approach a "confiscation."

Careful Jim, you may be counting your chickens before they're hatched, if
you think that's all the farther the bad guys want to go.



>
>>>Again, your rhetorical slavering blinds you to certain very real 
>>>facts to the contrary.
>>>
>>hmm, care to cite a couple?
>>
>Yes -- 1) the security system and armed guard that are a part of the
>security features of the condo where I live; and, if the first should not
>prove sufficient, 2) one of Mr. Colt's inventions.

Indeed, however it was not my rhetoric that blinded me, but the fact that
I live about a thousand miles a way from you and have no idea where your
condo is located...nice cheap shot Jim.


>But neither do they consider it operable, with 1/3 of the unit in
>resistance.

uh, no, *we're* the resistance, I think you mean 'in the defense'.  That's
fine, since we ain't gonna be attacking them in any case.


>Truth of the matter is that, if you're counting on the military to rally
>to the militiaboy cause, history demonstrates that you're already in deep
>shit.

rally en mass? doubtful unless someone is stupid enough to call for UN
peacekeepers, and we certainly can't bet on that.  Nonetheless, the term
'going south' derives from what a majority of (among others) the Marines
did at the beginning of the Civil War.

>Oh, of course not, Arlin  That is only the overwhelming
>"message" being spewed out by you and your brethren.
>
>Of course, you always preface it with something like "if we're attacked"
>or "if our rights are further diminished," but you never manage to draw
>the line as to specifcally what those are.

That would be tactically unwise, and would in any case depend on the
circumstances of the moment...we're very democratic Jim, and agreement
takes time...nonetheless, as Mike V. pointed out last week, we will insure
that we are fired upon *twice* in front of video cameras, before we return
the favor...never fear, you will have plenty of documentary evidence.



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 5:48:14 GMT
Message-ID: <832484894$11690@atype.com>
Subject: Re: More gun bans proposed
Lines: 32


In article <832436284$8589@atype.com>, wayne wattley
 writes:

>The Brady Bill did only good, it prevented 
>60,000 criminal offenders and crazies from having weapons which very 
>likely would have been used in criminal activity. This for some of us 
>happens to be good news.

actually that's not true.  of the 60,000 initial denials, something like
93% were eventually approved on appeal, as they had been erronious to
begin with.  Of course hci  and company never were interested in reporting
the facts, so they use the 60K number anyway....

>
>Gun restrictions are geared only toward keeping weapons of mass 
>distruction out of the hands of criminal offenders and crazies, the most 
>dangerous in our society.

uh, you're going to have to back that up with examples...also, militarily,
and in international law,  the term 'weapon of mass destruction' refers to
something like poison gas or a nuclear bomb...I don't think either one of
those has yet been touched on by gun control laws.

>I don't feel theatened for my right to bear arms, however I certainly 
>feel theatened by those of you who want to put weapons of mass 
>distruction into the hands of dangerous lunatics.

hey, I'd be just as happy if *nobody* had nukes, okay?  no problem with
getting rid of them...

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:33:53 GMT
Message-ID: <832487633$11869@atype.com>
Subject: Re: What is your view on women in the military?
Lines: 48


In article <832453388$9756@atype.com>, bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les
Griswold) writes:

>> actually, the term I usually use for you guys is 'nazidiots' but I was
>> trying to be polite.  Your views on biology are as warped as everything
>> else in your philosophy.  Now don't get me wrong, I understand that
your
>> primary concern is avoiding genetic crossbreeding, so you are forced to
>> produce large families, thus condemning any women who buy into your
>> spending a good percentage of their time pregnant.  However, attempting
to
>> justify that in biological terms is at best nonsensical.  You're trying
to
>> out produce all of the rest of us, Les, and *that* is a simple
numerical
>> impossiblity.  In the meanwhile, however, you are forced to maintain
rigid
>> gender roles within your own groups, in order to try to maintain group
>> stability.
>
>Funny, that:  you have no trouble stereotyping us, yet you sorts ALWAYS
>whine about what a mortal sin stereotyping is.

Why Les, you've been reading my posts.  That's okay, I've been reading
yours, and the others too.  I've also waded through a bunch of national
socialist nonsense, even got through mein kampf....  Make no mistake white
supremacy in *all* it's variations is antithetical to the moral and
ethical basis on which this country was founded.  Your beliefs are
antithetical to democracy generally, and the Constitution, specifically. 
Most importantly, to me, the entire supremacy movement is the spiritual
antithesis of Judeo-Christian thought.  That *is* why some of your folks
have been fooling around with the old religions, you know.  In doing so
they sow their own destruction, which is their choice, but please don't
expect anyone here to respect it - least of all me.  Stereotyping? 
Prejudice?  oh Heavens no, it's much more than that - you are the enemy,
you simply are a much less effective one than the runaway federal
bureaucracy.  It would probably be good for you not to try not to forget
that.  I never do, nor do I intend to let anyone else forget it either.

>We aren't "terrified" of you; you need to get a grip on your ego.  We DO
>tend to look at all of our enemies, current and future, real and
>potential, with considerably more balance than you guys do.  

hmm, we outnumber you a thousandfold, since many of us are caucasian you
can't really ever be sure you haven't been infiltrated by us, and you know
that we will be far less tollerant of you than the current regime, and you
*aren't* terrified?  more fools you.



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:33:45 GMT
Message-ID: <832487625$11853@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 20


In article <832448028$9362@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:


>* certainly any group may have 'bad apples', what is uncalled
>*for is when a small number of bad apples are mischaracterized
>* as representing the entire group.  That's been my point, all along.
>
>That "point" of yours doesn't seem to stop you from mischaracterizing the
>entirety of the federal government because of the actions of its few "bad
>apples."

As far as I have been able to determine, the entire fe(de)ral bureaucracy
is unresponsive at best.  That point aside, we have stated from the
beginning that our concerns deal with those specific groups, such as the
atf and the irs, which operate in direct contravention to the original
intent of the Constitution.  Only mikey and psycho dave have ever tried to
blame the whole government equally for the terrorist acts of a few small
portions thereof.



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:33:24 GMT
Message-ID: <832487604$11821@atype.com>
Subject: Re: "Worst Nightmare"
Lines: 105


In article <832447083$9184@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:


>> Harry Bibee didn't threaten mark. 
>
>      To quote yourself: It's the old 'walks like a duck/talks like a
>duck' routine .....
>
>      I gather that if several Guido types walked into your business and
>told you about how dangerous it was to be in business and not have
>insurance, you'd think, "Gee, what nice men."

That was most certainly neither the stated message nor the intent of the
Declaration...although that makes *two* people (you and mark) out of all
those I've run into so far, including the liberals that I showed it to,
who mistook it for a threat, after being given more than 30 seconds to
consider it.  The Declaration was specifically phrased to connote that the
militias would act *if* there was an unconstitutional use of force against
another civilian target a la the Waco Massacre.  I'll ask you the same
question that mark ducked when I asked him:  when, in your mind, does a
promise become a threat?  If the Declaration appeared threatening to you,
you must be terrified by criminal law....




>      That being established, one wonders why y'all have so much problem
>with someone saying things about you and y'all seem to have no problem
>with applying labels, ad homimen, etc. tactly the point that I have been
>making all along hereon -- the ONLY value to militiaboy ethics is gross
>hypocrisy. 

Jim, the problem seems to be that you attempt to see others as cliche's. 
The discomfort you feel in dealing with us is the cognitive dissonance
caused by the fact that no one here except mikey *fits* your cliche's.  If
there is any hypocrisy here, it is in your inability to respond to my
points concerning mark with other than personal attacks. 


>      Well, let me answer by feeding you the same gruel that you try to
>feed to everyone else:  "Anti-militia world" is made up of many disparate
>groups, over which I -- nor any single other person -- have control.

indeed that is so, yet you seem to see the members of the militia movement
as falling within a single stereotype of your own making.  Should we then
treat you differently?  If so, why?  I'm just using your own arguments
against you - have you no effective defense?

>Yes, of course.  Keep saying it long enough and you'll cnvince
>yourself.  You do not convince me, however, that you have the integrity
to
>reply to the allegations with anything other than falling back and
relying
>upon the same, tired, worn-out parrot squawking.

No Jim, I did reply, and used logical arguments...your own prejudice
simply keeps you from looking at those arguments rationally.



>>uh, would you say Billy Jeff, Aunt Janet, and Uncle Louie (Freeh) are on
>>your side?
>
>      Of course not.  That you ASSUME that I do is simply yet one more
bit
>of prejudice from the jaundiced militaboy eye.

no I didn't assume, that's why I asked if you would say they were on your
side...you have to read what I actually write, Jim; not just what you wish
was written there.

>>Do you have the personal integrity to admit one is a political
>>hack and the other two have strong neofascist tendencies? 
>
>      ALL politicians are political hacks, by definition.

ah, so we agree on this point.

>      Is there some reason that you think it necessary to constantly
>restate the obvious?

they're the same obvious answers to your same obvious questions, that's
all.


>      Who's ignoring them?  Over FOUR years ago I told you militiaboy
>nitwits that their shenanigans would only result in even more draconian
>legislation, not less.  Y'all stupidly rattled your sabres and -- voila!
>-- it came to pass.

You are ignoring them...unless you're doing something to reverse the
current situation.  If you choose to cower before the federal government,
well and good, but don't expect us to, because we do not now, nor will we
in the future.  If this is your real issue here Jim, then you're arguing
with the wrong group of people - many of our folks have already made
significant sacrifices - jobs, marriages, and the like, and many more will
in the future...people who are prepared to make such sacrifices will not
ever deal in your terms of 'go along and get along'...it don't work that
way.  







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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:33:13 GMT
Message-ID: <832487593$11805@atype.com>
Subject: Re: request from Arlin
Lines: 7


Hi Janet, 

Thanks!  I'll respond in detail in email.

Best
Arlin



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:05 PDT 1996
Article: 19293 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 6:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <832487585$11789@atype.com>
Subject: Re: "Worst Nightmare"
Lines: 37


In article <832444399$9051@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>
>      You presume everyone and everything to be a threat until proven
>otherwise?

no, that's not what I said.  I said that I presume anyone who has stated
and demonstrated hostile intent is actually a threat until proven
otherwise...I realize you have a hard time seeing people as individuals,
rather than cliche's but you could at least do me the courtesy of quoting
my post in context.


>      By that criteria, I'd say that militiaboys have, in fact,
>demonstrated themselves to be a threat -- as Pitcavage and myself have
>been pubicly and repeatedly threatened (right here in fact).  Want me to
>repost the messages from the little twit who styled himself a member of
>the Texas "militia," so as to jog your memory?

If someone threatened you and you did nothing about it, then that was
foolish indeed.  


>      However, it is noted that in the process of peforming your
attempted
>segue, you still have not answered the question -- which, to tell you the
>truth, I do.

yes, I did.  I demonstrated hostile intent to this movement and it's
members on the part of pitcavage...any person *demonstrating* such must be
considered hostile until proven otherwise.  Ya gotta stop thinking in
cliche's Jim, and start paying attention to specifics...

BTW, the mistake in question was when you confused mikey's threat with
mark's reference to the Declaration...



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:06 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 14:48:35 GMT
Message-ID: <832517315$13829@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Revolutionary Majorities
Lines: 17


In article <832509348$12915@atype.com>, mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
writes:

>Do you perchance mean Les Griswold ? He joined
>misc.survivalism once, and damn near ruined the best thread on composting
>that we ever had, until we got rid of him.

hmm, let's see, nazis...compost...nazis...compost...did you make him wear
a red hat so you could tell him from the compost?

>Oh well, compost happens.

yeah, unless it gets too hot :-)

Best
Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:07 PDT 1996
Article: 19313 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 19 May 96 14:48:42 GMT
Message-ID: <832517322$13845@atype.com>
Subject: Re: What is your view on women in the military?
Lines: 38


In article <832510100$13319@atype.com>, bn946@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Les
Griswold) writes:

>Well, THAT's an interesting proposition!  I've yet to hear my first
denial
>by a white-supremacist group that their members have ideas similar to
>those of many militias, 

Only two possible reasons for this:
1.  You're lying.  As your compatriot hub*r has readily admitted, you
folks have no problem with lying to achieve your goals.
or
2.  You're ignorant.  If you've read nothing of the underlying beliefs and
motivations - reinstitution of individual liberty for ALL Americans (that
includes those who aren't white males) and reinstatement of the
Constitution *without* all of the nonrepresentative bureaucratic overlays,
then you really shouldn't be trying to discuss these matters with us.

I'd say it's probably a combination of the two.


>Please note that my use of the term "militialoons" is by no means meant
to
>refer to all, or even many, militia types, just the ones who think that
>they should be dabbling in politics.

ah, now HERE we have an illustration of the profound depth of your
ignorance. You are Canadian, but even north of the border, you can still
access the basic documents on which our cause is based - our Declaration
of Independence, our Constitution, and our Bill of Rights.  The entire
basis of the militia movement is POLITICAL.  The entire membership of the
movement is drawn from the politically disaffected.  We are not 'dabbling'
in politics, we are inherently an integral part of American politics. 
That you do not comprehend this, shows that you are either incapable of
understanding, or too lazy to bother trying...either way you are less, not
more, because of it.



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:07 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 4:33:12 GMT
Message-ID: <832566792$16145@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 15


>      Tweren't a cheap shot.  It is rather clear, I think, that you and
>your milita brethren develop cognates in terms of ideological tenets only

certainly there is a strong ideological element within the movement.

>-- according to you, one who thinks the milita movement is illegitimate
>must therefore also be a (1) raging statist, (2) in the employ of the
>federal government in some form or fashion, and (3) an advocate of a
total
>ban on firearms.
>
>      I am none of the three.

GOOD FOR YOU!  You're in a category by yourself, Jim! 


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:08 PDT 1996
Article: 19356 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 4:33:21 GMT
Message-ID: <832566801$16161@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? -->>
Lines: 34


In article <832522695$14160@atype.com>, jdulaney@nntp1.best.com (John
Dulaney) writes:

>
>	Please point out where the article is unfactual.

Hi John,

NONE of the economic analysis is factual.

NONE of the educational analysis is factual.

I will leave it to someone with more political and historical background
than myself to tear apart the other fallicies.  

Interestingly, this piece of trash is actually a parody of itself, in at
least one place - notice how the author condemns all movies and all
television at the beginning of the article, and then further down directly
references a made for television movie and a major Hollywood production as
*factually supporting* his arguments...sheesh...the author has the
consistency of vapor...I won't say what kind....

Also, of interest, various parts of this (infiltration of the government,
infiltration of banks) have been used with almost the same wording since
the 16th century...these nazidiots aren't even original....  I suggest you
pick up a couple of good books on the development and use of propaganda,
read them, and then go back over this piece.  That's probably the best way
for you to see just how fictional it really is.

Arlin

Oh, and you can keep the hundred bucks, as long as you promise not to give
it to the morons who sent you this to begin with.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:09 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 2:33:32 GMT
Message-ID: <832559612$15695@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 30


In article <832516403$13706@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>As far as I have been able to determine, the entire fe(de)ral bureaucracy
>is unresponsive at best.
>----------
>      I'd do some work on ability to determine, were I you -- the FAA
>moved within the hour, in the recent ValueJet crash; the court inssued an
>injunction against the enforcement of the so-called Cyberspace law,
within
>72 hours.  Need more examples?

neither of those instances were responses to the needs of the people,
rather they were politically expedient reactions - in the case of the FAA
they must be careful to prove that the fact that the aircraft in question
had not fallen out of the sky due to carelessness on their part, in the
case of the CDA, the clintonistas had to prove that even though billy jeff
signed it into law, he didn't really mean it.  You need to work on
differentiating between political expediency and governmental
responsiveness.


>Only mikey and psycho dave have ever tried to blame the whole government
>equally for the terrorist acts of a few small portions thereof.
>----------
>That is not at all the truth, Arlin.  You obviously do not bother to read
>this newsgroup.

now *there* I would like to see some examples.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:10 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 2:33:26 GMT
Message-ID: <832559606$15679@atype.com>
Subject: Re: What is your view on women in the military?
Lines: 24




>you really enjoy this, don't you?  

Betchyurass, les.

This is probably the most
>attention that's ever been paid to you, isn't it?

No, I'm doing it because you folks rarely hang around long enough to be
confronted...

>  Why am I getting the 
>impression that you're tolerated but not really taken seriously, here on 
>misc.activism.militia?

Because you don't understand what's going on here.

>  Regardless, I won't waste any more bandwidth with
>you; 

*sigh* happens every time someone shines a light on you....



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:11 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 3:48:06 GMT
Message-ID: <832564086$16046@atype.com>
Subject: Re: exposing the myths.Dulaney rebutted
Lines: 9


Hi David,

Very well written post...it never ceases to amaze me that grownups still
fall for that nazidiot propaganda, but I guess some still do...naive
folks, I imagine, but it's good to see factual rebuttal of their nonsense.

Best
Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:11 PDT 1996
Article: 19409 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 13:18:21 GMT
Message-ID: <832598301$17046@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? -->>
Lines: 61


In article <832568595$16261@atype.com>, jdulaney@nntp1.best.com (John
Dulaney) writes:

>: In article <832522695$14160@atype.com>, jdulaney@nntp1.best.com (John
>: Dulaney) writes:
>
>: >
>: >	Please point out where the article is unfactual.
>
>: Hi John,
>: NONE of the economic analysis is factual.
>: NONE of the educational analysis is factual.
>
>	Oh.
>	Well.
>	I see.
>	That is More than sufficient proof for me.
>
>

Okay, I tried to be nice.  Let's take the educational analysis, since I
just happen to have a M. Ed.  I can do this relatively quickly.  To be
specific:  Phonics is indeed taught in a majority of US classrooms, both
public and private.  There are two major approaches, one uses textbooks
and the other (Whole Language) uses 'word sounds' while reading real
books.  Both are phonics.  Both are currently in use.  Look-Say pedagogy
was an experimental system which was tried for a while in the '60's and
'70's.  It is NOT currently in use anywhere.  It never WAS used in more
than about 1/3 of the public schools, because from the very start there
were problems - it works very well with about 50% of the kids, but doesn't
work at all with the other half.  Despite a LOT of research into the
problem, there was never a firm enough result to allow teachers to
determine *which* students would learn from the system, so it was dropped.
 The statement that 'schools are more interested in handing out condoms
than studying mathematics' made by the author of that racist tract you
posted, has no basis in fact, and as you'll notice he doesn't even attempt
to support it.

Now let's talk about one of the real problems with education today -
parents.  (hmm, bet that got some folk's attention).  In recent years
discipline in schools has deteriorated radically, due in large part to the
total lack of support (indeed often open hostility) of parents, as well as
a total lack of discipline at home.  I am aware of entire classrooms of
kids whose ONLY experience with ANY form of discipline comes
*while*they*are*in*school*.  What this means, in real terms, is that most
public school teachers must spend at least 50 percent (and sometimes as
high as 90 percent) of their classroom time in disciplinary
actions...guess how much time that leaves for teaching?  One school here
in the metro area issued FOUR THOUSAND suspensions last year, all for
violent or illegal activity.  How much learning do you think was
accomplished by the rest of the kids, in that kind of environment?  You're
right - not much!

Unless and until parents once again consistently accept their
responsiblities for disciplining their children *all*of*the*time, this
will not change...

Now, do you really want me to go on to the other issues?

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:12 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 13:18:06 GMT
Message-ID: <832598286$17014@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 28


In article <832557783$15590@atype.com>, Robert Ireland 
writes:

>I will even go so far as to reassess my judgement when I hear a majority
of
>the 
>government calling for that proscecution. 

Hi Robert,

Uh, the thing about it, Robert, is that the entire governmental
bureaucracy is structured so as to make it nearly impossible for any one
part of it (say, oh Dept of the Interior) to even be aware of what another
part (like Treasury, which is responsible for ATF) is doing, much less
have any influence over it.  99.9% of the bureaucrats outside the
immediate agency involved probably wouldn't even know what to do if they
saw someone from another agency committing a blatantly criminal act. Nor
would they have any real influence if they did attempt to do something. 
The whole system is structured to prevent it.

Don't get me wrong, we need to hold the entire chain of command
responsible for the actions of folks like SA Horuchi, but much beyond that
and we will find ourselves casting blame on people who are as powerless as
anyone else *outside* the immediate agency involved.

Best
Arlin 


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:13 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 13:18:14 GMT
Message-ID: <832598294$17030@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 15


In article <832560486$15777@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>Actually it's been proven true with the passing of the socalled 
>antiterrorism bill.The 2nd amendment RKBA will be next if 
>militia goons continue to make bombs and kill people.

Hi frankie,

all that 'proved' was that it was politically expedient for some
politicians to use the militias as a whipping boy...it proved nothing else
factually.

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:13 PDT 1996
Article: 19426 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Mon, 20 May 96 22:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832630684$18349@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Enough talking with Freeman!  Time for action!
Lines: 9


Tim,

1.  The FM have gas masks too.

2.  How many federal agents would you be willing to sacrifice to
accomplish this?

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:14 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 0:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832637883$18755@atype.com>
Subject: Re: The Spies Club
Lines: 14


In article <832555154$15386@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>I think the spies in M.A.M.--Mike Chapman, Mark Pitcavage, Mike Medintz,
Mike
>
>Vanderboegh and Al Sharpton--should get together and bend some elbows.  I
>vote 
>that Al Sharpton buy the beer.

BEER???  You guys get beer?  hey, how come nobody ever mentioned this
fringe benefit thing before??...uh, what kinda beer does Al Sharpton
drink??hmm...maybe I should think about this some more......


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 11:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832679283$20427@atype.com>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but idiots@@@@@@@@
Lines: 10


In article <832649595$19170@atype.com>, typhanee@aol.com (Typhanee)
writes:

>A good shot of Thorazine would fix
>you right up!

LOL! yes Typhanee, but would it do anything to improve his vocabulary? :-)

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 11:48:16 GMT
Message-ID: <832679296$20443@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Militia in NYC
Lines: 15


In article <832640585$18880@atype.com>, tanker06@aol.com (Tanker 06)
writes:

>
>>I remember reading a magazine put out by a group I believe were called, 
>>"Jews for the Preservation of Firearms".
>
>  Does anyone have an address and/or phone # for them?

JPFO 
2872 S. Wentworth Ave.
Milwaukee, WI 53207
(414) 769-0760



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 10:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <832674786$20078@atype.com>
Subject: Re: The Spies Club
Lines: 12


In article <832645983$19019@atype.com>, e142857@teleport.com (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

>
>Hmmmm, Sharpton probably drinks Anchor Steam Old Foghorn
>Barleywine Style Ale.
>
>

WHOOSH!  my theory is: never drink a beer that you can't pronounce after
the first three or four :-)


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 11:03:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832676584$20168@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Can an unarmed person be a patriot?
Lines: 25


In article <832647791$19081@atype.com>, e_p@unlinfo.unl.edu (Ed
Pearlstein) writes:

>Can 
> one be a patriot while not being armed and not believing that one should

> be armed?  More extremely, can one be a patriot while being an out and
out 
> pacifist? 


Hello Ed,

The answer to your questions is  Yes!  Certainly!

Religious pacifists have acted in patriotic, sometimes heroic manners
throughout US history.  One need only look at the Conscientious Objectors
who became combat medics in WWII, Korea, and Vietnam, to see that courage
and fortitude are not the sole province of the armed combatant.

why do you ask?

Arlin H. Adams



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 15:48:05 GMT
Message-ID: <832693685$22024@atype.com>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but idiots@@@@@@@@
Lines: 14


In article <832680183$20517@atype.com>, mo10cav@aol.com (Mo10Cav) writes:

>I sez:  Well, I finally lived long enough to see a leftist utter the
>(para)phrase: "America, Love It or Leave It."  Doubtless this fool wasn't
>even a gleam in his welfare daddy's eye in the Sixties, but the irony is
>delicious nonetheless.   -- Mike Vanderboegh, 1ACR
>
>

Yep, militia as counterculture!  dig it!  

Arlin
showing his age :-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:18 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 14:33:27 GMT
Message-ID: <832689207$21364@atype.com>
Subject: Re: ALERT
Lines: 11


1. anybody know who this guy is?

2. as previously reported, the rumors concerning leave cancellation at
Dept of Justice have never been confirmed.

3. there hasn't been any appropriate media propaganda prep for
anything...which is something the current administration dearly loves....

skeptically,
Arlin Adams 


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 19:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832708084$22685@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? -->>
Lines: 17


In article <832654083$19389@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>     Yeah, that's what I like about you, Arlin -- you always have such
>fact-filled rebuttals which speak directly to the question posed to you.
>
>      NOT.

cheap shot, Jim.  I was trying to irk the guy just enough to think about
that piece of garbage, without embarassing himself any further.  If you've
read my second post on the topic, you'll have discovered I found that it
was impossible to avoid making him look even more the fool than he already
appeared to be.  Which, of course, brings up the question why a historian
such as yourself didn't jump all over that garbage to begin with...hmmm?

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 21 May 96 19:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <832707185$22613@atype.com>
Subject: Re: When Should the Talking Stop?
Lines: 9


In article <832699984$22237@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>how much longer should the FBI wait before 
>taking action to arrest the Freemen?  

Just let'em sit.  They certainly aren't going any where, and eventually
it's going to sink in, even to them, that the game ain't worth the candle.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:21 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 9:03:11 GMT
Message-ID: <832755791$25175@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Real  Emergency, or what? Info Needed!
Lines: 10


Hi David,

you have any background on this...sounds like somebody's been watching
w-a-y too much of the science fiction channel....it's also written by
somebody with some newspaper/magazine background, from the construction of
the text...might be a stupid media person trying to bait a response out of
one of the local militias in the hopes of generating a story...

Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 8:48:06 GMT
Message-ID: <832754886$25133@atype.com>
Subject: Re: AMMO:  .223 "Battle Packs"
Lines: 11


In article <832721604$24129@atype.com>, rmplstlskn@flinet.com (rmplstlskn)
writes:

>I'm not sure, but isn't that .223 in plastic battle packs a South Africa 
>product? AUG puts out a pack like that, but the SA stuff seems to be most

>common.

there was some IMI stuff floating around out here a couple of months ago
as well.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:22 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 13:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832772884$25621@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Freemen or Wooses?
Lines: 24


In article <832734196$24523@atype.com>, rerdma@tincan.tincan.org (Roger
Erdman) writes:

> why don't they act like 
>real men!  Send the women and children out of harm's way, and 
>then "get it on" with the Feds, if they really have the guts
>to.

Hi Roger,

1.  What do you mean by the term 'real men'?

2.  Do you believe women should be allowed to defend themselves?  Do you
believe women have free will, just the same as men?

3.  If they were to 'get it on' with the feds, what next?  Do they just
keep shooting at the feds until they run out of ammo/die?  If they did
manage to win in the tactical situation, what would be their next logical
move?  What would be the feds' next logical move?

Interested in your thoughts on this,

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 13:48:27 GMT
Message-ID: <832772907$25653@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Get used to it...You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there'...
Lines: 5


It's nice to see we've got the statists so upset that they have to spend
*hours* constructing trolls!  :-)  Let's just hope they continue with this
same sort of waste of  time, as it keeps them out of trouble....



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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 13:49:25 GMT
Message-ID: <832772965$25669@atype.com>
Subject: Re: ALERT
Lines: 13


In article <832761184$25277@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>Texas militia be on your highest alert. Reason to believe Texas
>is aa special target becasause of secession talk. Any info on these
>reports please post  immediately.
>==========
>      Your Prozac dosage needs adjusting again.  Go to your doctor
>immediately.

to heck with the Prozac!  how did he get out of the straightjacket and
over to the computer?


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 13:48:13 GMT
Message-ID: <832772893$25637@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Starving Iraqis
Lines: 77


Brolin, you didn't really think people were going to believe your nazidiot
propaganda in this newsgroup, did you?  "Ingrid" indeed!  I didn't know
you were into cross dressing, but that's your concern....Let's look at
your current pack of lies:

>In contrast to Iraq, Israel mercilessly suppresses Christianity in her
>conquered territories,

This is not true.  The Israeli government supports the Christian presence
throughout their country.  Christianity is not suppressed.  What this
person is confusing is that certain of the Lebanese warlords style
themselves as 'christian' although they kill ANYONE who questions their
actions, attack other 'christian' warlords, the Israelis, Lebanese
peasants, and basically anyone they think might have something they want. 
By their actions (which is what God judges) they are not Christian; just
the same as the so-called 'christian' identity movement in this country is
not Christian.

> destroys Christian Holy Places

This is not true.   Israel protects the Holy Places of *All* religions,
including the Dome of the Rock, a Moslem Holy Place which due to the
number pilgrims visiting it is probably the biggest security headache in
the entire country.

> (including the
>Biblical village of Emmaeus)

The *Biblical* village of Emmaeus is somewhere between 8-12 feet UNDER the
current ground level of the site...get real!  

> and even takes Christian lives (including that
>of the kindly Dr. Mattar, Keeper of the Garden Tomb in Jerusalem who was
>killed in cold blood by the first Israeli soldiers to visit the Tomb
after
>the seizure of the Christian Quarter).

another made-up psuedofact...no evidence to support this whatsoever.

>I remember the start of the Gulf War very well because that was the first
>time that I noticed General Colen Powell.  I will never forget the look
on
>his face when he said of the Iraqi:  "We will surround them.  And we will
>kill them."
>
>Do those two sentences qualify as the Final Solution for the people of
>Iraq?

No, nor were they intended to.  They WERE, however, intended to be the
Final Solution to the Iraqi Army which was occupying Kuwait at the time. 
It's interesting how consistently you people have to pull quotes out of
context in order to propagate your lies.

NOW let's talk about the Iraqi government which:

continues to spend it's money on developing nuclear weapons, rather than
feed it's people.
continues to spend it's money on developing chemical weapons, rather than
feed it's people,
continues to rearm it's oversized military, rather than feed it's people,
summarily executes anyone voicing discontent with the way things are
going.

Gee, they sound just like nazis, no *wonder* you like them!  Brolin, or
Ingrid, or whoever you want to call yourself today, there is one concept
you need to understand with crystal clarity:  WE ARE YOUR ENEMIES.  You
nazis, c.i., and any other white supremacist organizations are BY
DEFINTION operating in direct contradiction to the principles embodied in
the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.
 Because of this, you are anathema to the Constitutional Militias, and
will meet with nothing but hostility from us.  You are neither strong
enough to overwhelm us, nor smart enough to out wit us...therefore your
only course of action is to quit while you are behind.  The sooner you
realize this, the better it will be for you.

Arlin H. Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 17:33:11 GMT
Message-ID: <832786391$26436@atype.com>
Subject: Re: censors on both sides
Lines: 14


In article <832780997$26225@atype.com>, jbrolin546@aol.com (JBrolin546)
writes:

>From: Anton                    \ Internet:    (anton88@cris.com)
>
>The following articles appeared in this week's issue (5/3/96) of _The
>Week In Germany_ (http://www.germany-info.org/whats-new/):

Brolin, this nazidiot mindset of yours is beginning to affect your
perceptions of geography - this is a newsgroup for *American* militias -
if you want to pout because the German government is censoring your
ravings, take it up with them.  Oh, I forgot, that would require
courage...never mind...


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Posted-Date: 22 May 1996 12:02:43 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 16:03:35 GMT
Message-ID: <832781015$26251@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Farrakhan on way to empowerment
Lines: 14


In article <832770185$25539@atype.com>, jbrolin546@aol.com (JBrolin546)
writes:

>The Hohenhausen Guild has had substantial success in bringing together
>Arab, African-American, Asian and White student union groups at
>Universities around the country for the common cause

More lies, Brolin, the hohenhausen guild is a white supremacist group
which, other than a few misfits and skinheads, has accumulated no one. 
Look, if you morons want to hang out in your own newsgroups, fine, but all
you will gain from intruding in this one is rejection...

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:27 PDT 1996
Article: 19609 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 22 May 1996 13:17:43 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 17:33:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832786384$26420@atype.com>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but idiots@@@@@@@@
Lines: 10


In article <832780103$26119@atype.com>, mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
writes:

> How about "Anchors Aweigh" by Sinead
>O'Connor? (Arrgh, that's a scary thought.)
>
>

Now THAT is truly warped! :-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:28 PDT 1996
Article: 19617 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 22 May 1996 18:19:57 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 22:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <832804386$27980@atype.com>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but idiots@@@@@@@@
Lines: 8


The subtle wit, the extensive vocabulary, the inclusive philosophy...why
it must be another college undergraduate who just finished finals!

Cheez, oh well, two more weeks and then we've got until September when the
universities start handing out free undergraduate accounts again (*sigh*)

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:28 PDT 1996
Article: 19618 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 22 May 1996 18:34:35 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 22 May 96 22:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832805284$28018@atype.com>
Subject: Re: When Should the Talking Stop?
Lines: 15


In article <832799011$27102@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>It gives the
>Freemen what they claim they want, a sovereign territory. It also
provides
>a good testing ground which could be leased to technology companies and
>might even eventually recover all the money expended and lost by victims.
>Or would this fall into the inhumane treatment clause?

I dunno, Wiz, remember that movie THE MOUSE THAT ROARED...all they'd have
to do then is declare war on the US, lose, and then file for aid to
rebuild their country...sounds like another foreign aid debacle in the
making to me. :->


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:29 PDT 1996
Article: 19641 of misc.activism.militia
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 23 May 1996 03:30:16 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 7:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <832836785$29170@atype.com>
Subject: Re: When Should the Talking Stop?
Lines: 14


In article <832813383$28277@atype.com>, dhartung@mcs.com (Daniel Hartung)
writes:

>
>Pssssst.  Tom.   The local pervert just kidnapped your five-year-old
>daughter and took her across state lines.
>
>Change your opinion?
>
>

pssst, Daniel, the FBI has more than 30 agents!  no really!  have had for
a while now, you'd be amazed - radios and everything...


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:30 PDT 1996
Article: 19661 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 23 May 1996 06:29:24 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 10:33:42 GMT
Message-ID: <832847622$29571@atype.com>
Subject: Re: HEH HEH BUNCH OF PARANOID IDIOTS
Lines: 7


In article <832824184$28638@atype.com>, FREEman25@clover.net (Wes) writes:

>.like I said before...you
>don't like it...there's the back door! see ya!

oh, but Wes, *we* aren't leaving :->


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:30 PDT 1996
Article: 19670 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: <832837692$29240@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 23 May 1996 10:05:17 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:18:05 GMT
Message-ID: <832861085$118@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Freemen soon to be Deadmen
Lines: 8


In article <832837692$29240@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

> And, as with all such persons, if
>they *refuse* to come out alive, there's only one other alternative.

only to the unimaginative or the impatient Michael. 


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:31 PDT 1996
Article: 19672 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 23 May 1996 10:08:27 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:18:30 GMT
Message-ID: <832861110$177@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Get used to it...You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there's
Lines: 29


In article <832832283$29036@atype.com>, ericpe@vt.edu (Eric) writes:

>
>  Whoever wrote this "Get used to it ..", is  extremely ignorant, assumes

>way too much, and is very dangerous.   The subject title is very 
>offensive and a very bad choice of words. 
>   

Hi Eric,

All the original poster is doing is attempting to justify his own lack of
moral fiber.  You see, He wants to believe that he is helpless - it's so
much easier than trying to do anything about the current situation. 
Unfortunately for him, *we* are doing something.  Now that implies that
people *can* change the situation, which in turn shows him up as the lazy
coward he is.  Of course he doesn't like that, so he tries to assuage his
ego by lecturing us on how 'wrong' we are.  

In the end, when he figures out that his cause is hopeless, he will be
caught in a dichotomy - either he can run away again (just as he's run
away from his responsibilities in regard to maintaining his own liberty),
which would be admitting we were right - or - he can join us, which would
be tough, because it would be admitting we were right, as well.  Should be
interesting, don't you think?

Best
Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:32 PDT 1996
Article: 19679 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: root@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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References: <832847632$29587@atype.com>
From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 23 May 1996 10:17:13 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <832861986$289@atype.com>
Subject: Re: GUNS GUNS ARE GOOD FOR YOUR HEART!!!
Lines: 19


In article <832847632$29587@atype.com>, morleyed@aol.com (MorleyEd)
writes:

>
>Every one needs guns! HEE HAW!!! A PERFECT WORLD!!!! WOULD HAVE LOTS OF
>GUNS!!!! JUST LIKE BACK IN VIETNAM!!! HEE HAW!!!

Hi again Ed,

A couple more points to ponder:

1.  There is no such thing as a perfect world in this life, there's only
the best we can make of the one we have.

2.  In an imperfect world, such as this, defense against tyranny is
essential.

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:34 PDT 1996
Article: 19696 of misc.activism.militia
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Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 23 May 1996 09:07:17 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 13:18:27 GMT
Message-ID: <832857507$29845@atype.com>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but idiots@@@@@@@@
Lines: 14


In article <832825083$28682@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>     And, unless I miss my guess, you and your militaboy brethren have
>not exactly won the hearts and minds of the American people.

not all, yet, but we're getting there. :-)

 
>      In other words, PR ain't you strong suit, is it, Arlin? 

Depends on whom I'm playing to, Jim...and to what purpose.  But then *I*
have more than *one* area of expertise :->


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:34 PDT 1996
Article: 19701 of misc.activism.militia
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 23 May 1996 10:10:36 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:18:52 GMT
Message-ID: <832861132$217@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Pitcavage on Patriot Movement
Lines: 22


In article <832829601$28895@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>That's pretty tough talk from a "disabled" veteran, Arlin.

It's a simple numbers game Michael, and the longer we have to work on it,
the better off we'll be.  As far as tough talk, you'll notice that at no
time in my post did I state that I expected to live through such a
confrontation.  My disability limits my mobility somewhat - keeping up
with a unit moving through the woods, while carrying my fair share of the
load, would be nearly impossible.  So if and when it comes down to an
armed confrontation, I'll end up doing my communications thing for my
folks, until the bad guys show up at my door, and then I guess I'll just
have to exercise the courage of my convictions.

Arlin H. Adams

"Is Life so dear, is Peace so sweet, as to be bought at the price of
chains and slavery?
Forbid it Almighty God!  I know not what course others may take, but as
for me, Give Me Liberty, or Give Me Death!"  - Patrick Henry


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:35 PDT 1996
Article: 19702 of misc.activism.militia
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Return-Path: 
Posted-Date: 23 May 1996 10:11:50 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:19:00 GMT
Message-ID: <832861140$238@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Enough talking with Freeman!  Time for action!
Lines: 18


In article <832827796$28822@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>On Mon, 20 May 96 22:18:04 GMT, ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ) wrote:
>
>>2.  How many federal agents would you be willing to sacrifice to
>>accomplish this?
>>

>
>Aw, that's an easy one: As many as it takes.

Hmm, interesting.  So you'd be willing to have their blood on your hands
for sending them into an unneccessary dynamic entry situation, simply to
assuage your patience?  I take it you don't know very many people in law
enforcement, eh?



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:36 PDT 1996
Article: 19705 of misc.activism.militia
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Return-Path: 
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 23 May 96 14:19:07 GMT
Message-ID: <832861147$254@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 19


In article <832847583$29491@atype.com>, morleyed@aol.com (MorleyEd)
writes:

>He would
>have walked on out to the FBI and said "I love you!" Ain't that the truth
>folks?

Yo! Ed!

Two points to ponder:

1.  He was God, which among other things means that stuff like bullets
wouldn't bother him anyway.

2.  WE AREN'T God, which among other things means stuff like bullets WOULD
bother us...

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:37 PDT 1996
Article: 19717 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 2:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832904284$3077@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 15


In article <832876389$1077@atype.com>, e142857@teleport.com (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

>
>Well, if the whole universe is God then, ipso facto, all the subsets of
the 
>universe are parts of God. 

honestly Walter, I wasn't trying to start a theological debate...and the
particular part of the universe that is *me* tends to bleed when the skin
is punctured, you know?  sheesh, sorry if you thought my remarks were in
bad taste.

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:37 PDT 1996
Article: 19720 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 2:48:14 GMT
Message-ID: <832906094$3139@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 10


In article <832870083$556@atype.com>, hk157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Janet
L. Littler) writes:

> GOD GAVE YOU A MIND HE EXPECTS YOU TO USE IT!

Absolutely!  second the motion!

Arlin



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:38 PDT 1996
Article: 19733 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 3:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832908783$3382@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Militiadermy?
Lines: 10


In article <832870983$576@atype.com>, Fish  writes:

>
>By "those responsible" I assume you mean Randy Weaver and Kevin Harris
(Ruby
>Ridge), and David Koresh.

nice troll fish.  Are you then suggesting that what the government did at
both Ruby Ridge and Waco were legitimate actions?


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:39 PDT 1996
Article: 19737 of misc.activism.militia
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Posted-Date: 24 May 1996 01:50:35 -0400
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 6:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832917783$3658@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Mafia is militia?
Lines: 71


In article <832892584$2778@atype.com>, stjohn@interpac.net writes:

>I have looked in several dictionaries and I can find no definition of
militia that 
>fits the paramilitary groups that have orgqnizing in this country. They
>expropriated the term militia to hide beneath the mantle of the 2nd
ammendment ot the
>constitution where they have no right to be.

Interesting.  Could you expand a bit on what your perception of us might
be, that conflicts with the more traditional definitions of the word
'militia'?  Also, would you expand on how you came to determine that we
are not covered by the Bill of Rights?  I'm not clear on either of these
points from your post.

The definition that best fits these groups is street gangs or organized
>crime.

In what sense?  please explain how you came to this conclusion, your
rationale is not clear from this statement.

>It would appear that someone has been reading their history and thinks
they have
>found a way to copy the plan developed by Lenin and followed by
Bolsheviks, fascists,
>and Nazis to use a small party to control a majority government by the
use of
>assasination and fear and the "true believers".

In what way do we 'control' the government?  More to the point, I think,
the groups you named were intentionally formed to exert an offensive
revolutionary influence.  Our influence may be somewhat revolutionary (at
least by current statist standards) bet we are an inherently defensive,
community based movement.   We are not equipped, or indeed motivated, to
fight offensively; thus I wonder how you came to this conclusion.

>It is as if the cripps or the hells angels or the mafia called themselves
>militia and used the 2nd ammendment ot take control of towns and conties
and states.

I don't understand your analogy here - what "towns and counties and
states" do you believe that the we taken control over?  Also, as you wish
to compare us to various criminal organizations, perhaps you could say
what sort of criminal activities you perceive us to be involved in?

>Some militia groups (like the so-called freemen) have become clasicla
racketeers

I think it's been clear for a long time now that the FM are not, and have
never been associated with us.  They are, after all, anarchists, and would
never associate with organizations of our size and complexity.  Since you
believe there are other militia organizations acting like "racketeers"
could you please provide an example or two?

>and all militia groups have the potential.

Would you please explain how you have come to this conclusion?  On what
criteria, and in what way, do you measure the potential actions of "all
militia groups"?

>We are in danger of losing our liberty is we are not very carefull and
the danger 
>is from these gangs who call themselves militia.

Hmm, would you mind explaining how you see this happening?  What sort of
loss of liberty do you believe will be caused by us?  What facts did you
use in arriving at this conclusion?

puzzled,
Arlin H. Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 2:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <832906084$3123@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 29


In article <832883583$2045@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>The notion that early Americans had easy access to the weapons of war is
a 
>popular myth but one not backed up by reality.  Actually, military style 
>weapons were in very short supply, particularly up to the 1820s or so.  
>Shortages were particularly bad in the South and on the frontier, and 
>representatives from these areas were always calling on Congress to have
the 
>federal government supply them with arms, since they were in such short
>supply.

Ah, but mark, that is NOT the whole story.  While firearms in standard
calibers, especially military style (smoothbore) muskets were in fact in
short supply, firearms generally were not.  The privately owned firearms
of the day varied between cheap 'trade guns'  (unreliable, shoddily made
muskets designed for trade with the Native Americans) all the way up to
custom made Pennsylvania Long Rifles.  There was no shortage of *personal*
firearms, but as occured at the beginning of the Revolution, military
units were *not* able to equip all of their personnel with standardized
caliber weapons - indeed prior to the shipments of surplus guns from the
French, many militia units remained armed primarily with personal
firearms.  The trick here, of course, is that using personal firearms,
usually handmade, required that the military supply a wide variety of
calibers of musket ball, as well as making maintenance in the field almost
impossible.  THIS, then, is why there was a constant plea for standardized
military firearms throughout the early years of this country.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:40 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 10:18:26 GMT
Message-ID: <832933106$4686@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 20


In article <832907969$3322@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>1.  He was God, which among other things means that stuff like bullets
>wouldn't bother him anyway.
>==========
>      Yeah . . . only nails and spears, right?
>  
>      So, I see that Bible history is NOT one of those ares where you
>claim "expertise," is it?

Nice try, but as already been made clear by other posters, Jesus proved on
several occaisions that He had the power to control what happened to Him -
calming storms, that sort of thing.  The whole point of the Gospels is
that He didn't *have* to die, but rather *chose* to be sacrificed.  That
being said, I am only an amateur theologian..my expertise lies elsewhere.

So Jim, I see Christian theology is NOT one of the areas in which you
claim "expertise" is it?


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:41 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 10:18:41 GMT
Message-ID: <832933121$4718@atype.com>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but idiots@@@@@@@@
Lines: 33


In article <832907901$3242@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>>>And, unless I miss my guess, you and your militaboy brethren
>>>have not exactly won the hearts and minds of the American people.
>>>
>>not all, yet, but we're getting there. :-)
>==========
>      Don't hold your breath -- in case you've not been paying attention,
>there has been an increasing frequency in these "you people are idiots"
>messages.

Certainly as our visibility increases, comments both good and bad will
also be seen with increasing frequency.  While I *have* been getting
supportive email from several new sources, the only posts I've noticed
here that are critical were obviously written by bored, and not overly
well read, university students...not my primary audience in any case.



>>>In other words, PR ain't you strong suit, is it, Arlin? 
>>>
>>>Depends on whom I'm playing to, Jim...and to what purpose.
>>>But then *I* have more than *one* area of expertise :->
>==========
>      Do tell!  So, tell me, what would that "expertise" be?

y'know Jim, I really thought about what my response here would be, and
what came to me as the most effective would be to simply let you go back
and reconsider my initial post in this thread - asking yourself what
*other* priorities I might have had, and what expertise that might imply. 
Mind games Jim, you play 'em, now you get to play 'em.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:42 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 10:18:48 GMT
Message-ID: <832933128$4734@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Get used to it...You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there's
Lines: 30


In article <832907925$3258@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>All the original poster is doing is attempting to justify his own lack of
>moral fiber.
>==========
>      A man who belives he can resolve problems without resorting to a
gun
>is NOT a man who lacks moral fibre, or courage.

true as far as your statement goes, but a man who believes he can solve
ALL of his problems without a gun is a fool, and one who is afraid to face
those problems which require the use of force is a coward.

>      I'll believe that you simplton militiaboys have moral fiber and
>courage when I see you out in the streets getting your asses beaten and
>blasted with water hoses -- as did the civil rights marchers -- but not
>until then.

Well, don't hold your breath (where have I heard that before?) - we aren't
into being victims...most certainly not victims for your entertainment.

>      Rather, he is a man who knows that his greatest weapon is his mind.
>
>      Pity that you militiaboys have not evolved that far.

uhm, somehow evolution to the point of depending solely on mental
telepathy (or were your refering to telekinesis?) is something I doubt you
have achieved either Jim...


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:42 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 10:33:06 GMT
Message-ID: <832933986$4762@atype.com>
Subject: Re: War Veteran Wannabes: the Suicide of
Lines: 21


In article <832907986$3338@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>
>      Be goddamned glad that there are men and women who will willingly
go
>to fight, and maybe die, so that your puny little ass can sit at home and
>ridicule them.

alright, let's try this again:

to borrow from Mike's post: there were about 10,000 medals handed out for
the Grenada invasion, and about 8000 people actually landed on the
island... and that includes the specops folks who were killed
unneccessarily due to improper equipment an a lack of communication
between the various services...now Jim, is your puny ass just going to sit
there and ridicule the truth - that whenever anybody starts shooting
citations start falling from the sky like bird crap?  and usually end up
on folks in inverse proportion to the ammount of sacrifice they actually
made?


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:43 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832952883$5666@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 24


In article <832917802$3690@atype.com>, e142857@teleport.com (Walter
Ulrich) writes:

>
>"Bad taste"... naaaw...there's nothing like a good theological donnybrook
>to get the juices flowing. 

:-) yeah, but considering that we're discussing points which various
parties accept ON FAITH, it's a little hard to do the 'objective observer'
thing, you know?


>But there is a connection in this to militia/freedom/rights issues: The 
>"humanists" claim that everything is invented by man, that humans are
>the measure of all things, therefore men can subject other men to man-
>made tyranny and that's o.k., because it's all on one level. 

I think you've got a point here - one of the problems with society as it
currently stands is that there are large numbers of people who neither
believe nor disbelieve - they just avoid the issue entirely...of course
they then have a very difficult time with folks who hold *anything* as an
absolute.



From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:44 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:48:21 GMT
Message-ID: <832952901$5682@atype.com>
Subject: Re: The Miracle of the Li
Lines: 12


In article <832921418$3984@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

> I agree totally..Government supresses psychedelics,mind-opening drugs.
>They learned the lessons of psychedelics and pot during the
>Vietnam war. Their guinea pigs couldn't shoot straight and
>turned on to god and pacifism.

uh, not entirely accurate - none of them could really shoot straight,
about 50 percent totally flaked, but the other 50 percent went
uncontrolably psychotic - freaked out, as it were...


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:45 PDT 1996
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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:48:31 GMT
Message-ID: <832952911$5698@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Logic for the Illogical militia...
Lines: 11


In article <832942984$5164@atype.com>, tlofton@unlinfo.unl.edu (Todd
Lofton) writes:

>Wes (FREEman25@clover.net) wrote:
>[another example of why one shouldn't drink alcohol before posting]
>
>It would be nice if you could have a point?

actually Todd, I think it would have been even nicer if his mother hadn't
been drinking while she was pregnant, y'know?


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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 15:48:38 GMT
Message-ID: <832952918$5714@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Can an unarmed person be a patriot?
Lines: 17


In article <832936691$4967@atype.com>, andrew.wicken@stonebow.otago.ac.nz
(Andrew Wicken) writes:

>
>How about someone who loves their country, and is willing to show that
>love through hard work?
>
>If you're willing to risk time, reputation or your life for your
>country, then you're a patriot. It's one of those grey areas, although
>"my patriotism's bigger than yours" arguments shouldn't be encouraged.

Excellent points Andrew!  (uh, just for future reference, even the
non-libertarian types in the movement tend not to be 'statists' in the
perjorative meaning of the term...)  

Arlin Adams


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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 16:03:05 GMT
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Subject: Re: [ NEWS ] KG-BATF agents put family in TERROR
Lines: 17


In article <832942106$5138@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Myth #10004455.  The Germans had plans drawn up for an invasion, which
they 
>didn't think would be that difficult.  They had a wee problem, though;
they 
>were fighting several million Soviets at the time.

Myth debunker Debunked (try saying THAT five times real fast!):  German
estimates showed that they would lose combat effectiveness of at *least* 6
first line divisions in the invasion and then *still* have to garrison the
place.  Having already begun to deal with Tito in Yugoslavia - whose
guerillas were eventually able to tie down 11 divisions in similar
terrain, it was determined that an invasion of Switzerland would be cost
in-effective.


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 24 23:26:47 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 17:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832959183$6023@atype.com>
Subject: Re: ANFO
Lines: 10


In article <832946584$5371@atype.com>, dcinege@superlink.net (Dave Cinege)
writes:

>Sure. Just throw it in there......
>Lemme guess, your friends call you stumpy?

aw heck, dave, depending on the quantities he's working with, he *might*
just become the precursor of a militia space program...er, at least parts
of him might...


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 17:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832960083$6113@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 20


In article <832941183$5068@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>
>They weren't just pleas for "standardized military firearms."  As William
>Henry
>Harrison, governor of Indiana Territory complained (I am quoting from
memory 
>here):  "Arms are not to be had in this country."

Exactly - no production facilities, once one left the east coast, and  the
only arms available were those personal firearms people had with them. 
Gotta remember that prior to Eli Whitney coming up with a way of producing
standardized muskets with interchangable (uh, at least theoretically)
parts, firearms were the work of individual craftsmen, who were fairly few
and far between.  Because of this, no one was going to sell their personal
firearms to the government, and there was no way that the few gunsmiths
(whose individual production might only amount to 3 or 4 firearms per
month) would ever have been able to equip a large military force. 


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Date: Fri, 24 May 96 18:03:21 GMT
Message-ID: <832961001$6171@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 24


In article <832920492$3851@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>    Boys who misbehave get whipped.

unless they do the whipping.  Those of us who do not see the government in
a paternal role, but rather in the role of armed thief, aren't
misbehaving, simply exercising our Right of Self-defense

>It turns out that the 
>suspected OKC bomber may have belonged to a militia..How else 
>do you expect the government to respond?

by flaking and ignoring the presence of John Doe #2, since *he* didn't
conveniently get caught for speeding...

> They can only go so 
>far with the drugwar. Now that the cat's out of the bag with
>militias they have a new course of action,yet another excuse to
>ban guns and shred the Bill of Rights.

they needed an excuse?  c'mon frankie, they were going to do that anyway -
without any excuse...


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Fri, 24 May 96 17:48:18 GMT
Message-ID: <832960098$6129@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Mafia is militia?
Lines: 14


In article <832924163$4315@atype.com>, mo10cav@aol.com (Mo10Cav) writes:

> Dammit, HABIZ, I told you to quit doing that.

Cheez, I'm sorry Mike, I'll check the latch better next time...  :-)


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sat, 25 May 96 3:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <832996083$7983@atype.com>
Subject: Re: [ NEWS ] KG-BATF agents put family in TERROR
Lines: 44


In article <832954694$5784@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>>Myth debunker Debunked (try saying THAT five times real fast!):  German
>>estimates showed that they would lose combat effectiveness of at *least*
6
>>first line divisions in the invasion and then *still* have to garrison
the
>>place.  Having already begun to deal with Tito in Yugoslavia - whose
>>guerillas were eventually able to tie down 11 divisions in similar
>>terrain, it was determined that an invasion of Switzerland would be cost
>>in-effective.
>
>Temporarily losing the combat effectiveness of six divisions in World War
II is
>a pittance by itself; Germany easily could have invaded Switzerland.  It
was,
>as I said, the fact that they were fighting the Soviets and so could not
spare 
>any avoidable losses that was the key factor--not the military efficiency
of 
>the Swiss, or lack thereof.
>

you need to go back and re-read my response mark - as I pointed out it was
a combination of the loss of combat effectiveness (which means projected
casualties of at least 25-33%) AND the neccessity to provide for a *LARGE*
occupation force (that's what the example of Yugoslavia was about) that
made them change their mind.  By the  time the Germans had launched their
eastern front campaign they were well aware of how short of troops they
really were.  The withdrawal of six, already undersized, combat divisions
would indeed have been a serious drain on their already over-stretched
manpower resources, and a garrison force equivalent to that required for
Yugoslavia would have forced them to withdraw units from the already
undermanned 'western wall' defenses along the coast.

In turn, what made these losses, and the need for such a garrison force
inevitable was a combination of the Swiss terrain and the Swiss military. 
To acknowledge that the Germans would have suffered unacceptable
casualties *without* acknowledging the agency that would have caused 
those casualties is, at best, a lapse in logic.  Unless you believe they
were all going to die of frost bite, the primary concern of the Germans in
this effort would have been the efficiency of the Swiss military. 


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon May 27 15:29:27 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:18:03 GMT
Message-ID: <833123883$11570@atype.com>
Subject: Re: [ NEWS ] KG-BATF agents put family in TERROR
Lines: 24


In article <832988893$7707@atype.com>, devens@uoguelph.ca (David L Evens)
writes:

>
>Mark T Pitcavage (mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu) wrote:
>: In article <832933083$4638@atype.com>, X288FILES 
wrote:
>: >
>: >why did hitler not invade switzerland ???
>: >ans. cause every one had a machine gun
>
>: Myth #10004455.  The Germans had plans drawn up for an invasion, which
they
>
>: didn't think would be that difficult.  They had a wee problem, though;
they
>
>: were fighting several million Soviets at the time.
>
>Indeed that is a myth.  Good of you to mark your myths as such, Mark.

Well, you know, David, with mark it's always a hit or myth situation when
it comes to dealing with military concepts....


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:18:11 GMT
Message-ID: <833123891$11586@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Agents, pitman, assassination and war
Lines: 15


In article <832951993$5620@atype.com>, rykan1@aol.com (RYK an1) writes:

>But the question is what do we do with the enemy if such a situation
>occured?
>Do we exile them, release them, or shoot them.
>
>I just cannot see the feasibility of releasing them back in to society.
>Maybe I am wrong but that leaves only two choices and neither one of them
>are very nice.

Hmm, while I seriously doubt the hardcore pseudo-liberals would *want* to
live in our sort of society, I can understand your concern.  You might
check out Jerry Pournelle's OATH OF FEALTY - he has some interesting ideas
for alternative forms of punishment that you might find interesting.


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon May 27 15:29:30 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <833124785$11673@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Freemen or Wooses?
Lines: 102


Hi Roger,

Actually, we aren't that far apart on this issue.

>My thoughts are this:  I'm tired of the gov't pussyfooting around
>with these scofflaws.  My tax dollars are being wasted playing
>the waiting game, because of fear of bad publicity.

It has gotten tedious, certainly, though I don't think the feds are
functioning solely on the fear of bad publicity.  It has long been a tenet
of the American criminal justice system that it is better to spend money
than to kill people.  Witness the number of 'life' sentences handed out
every year.  Someone so sentenced is effectively removed from society, for
the rest of her/his life, at tax payer expense.  Certainly, were one to
look at the problem only in terms of cost-effectiveness, killing them
would be the cheaper option.  But we do not, usually, do so.  Rather, we
spend the money to keep them in prison, on the principle that it's better
to do that than kill them.  I think all we're really talking about here is
whether the same general principle applies in this situation.  I believe
it does.

>  These so-
>called "patriots" are nothing but common criminals,

Well, I don't consider them 'patriots' at all, just people who have been
accused of defrauding their neighbors...not a very acceptable practice in
my book, and certainly not legal.

> and not very
>bright ones either!  They must have been brain-dead to think that
>they could get away with printing their wonderful bogus checks!

hmm, naive might be a better term.  Not realizing that the entire legal
system has become so convoluted that even regular practitioners can rarely
be certain of much, they attempted to interpret the law in their own
favor, without regard to the bureaucratic system specifically set up to
prevent people from doing such things.  More importantly, in my book, they
were also hypocritical - decrying the government's ability to generate
financial instruments, while at the same time attempting to generate their
own...sorry, but THAT just don't cut it either...y'know?


>They have broken the law of the land.

That certainly *seems* to be the case - we wont know for sure until the
trial.

>  If they have an ounce of 
>courage, they would come out and face their accusers in a court
>of law.

The problem, of course, is that they are anarchists...the sorts of folks
who wish the rest of the known universe would just go away (uh, except for
those nice government checks, of course ;-) ) .  They seem to have backed
themselves into a philosophical corner they aren't bright enough to reason
their way out of again...still, I'm not sure even advanced stupidity
warrants the death penalty.

>  If they refuse to do that, they should be perfectly 
>honest, and be prepared to pay the ultimate price!  To me,
>if they truly had the courage of their so-called convictions,
>they would be ready to lay down their lives for their beliefs.

In all, honest, judging by their actions, and what I've read of their
writings, I'd expect their leadership to commit suicide, one way or the
other.  

>Likewise, they would want their progeny out of harm's way, so
>that they could grow up and carry on the "good fight"!  Ergo,
>the wives should go out with the children, to ensure someone
>is left alive to raise them.

well as a libertarian, I'd have to insist that a parent (gender
irrelevant) be allowed to survive with the children - we don't
discriminate by gender - but other than that, I would certainly say your
suggestion makes sense to me.

>Additionally, it wasn't they government that they were bilking
>woith the worthless checks, etc., but fellow ordinary citizens!
>Where's the honor in that? 

Exactly.  There was no honor in that.

> Furthermore, the one fine Freman,
>managed to stifle his hatred of ZOG enough, to accept over 
>$600,000 in taxpayer-funded farm subsidies!!  My, my what a 
>real rebel!!

like I said, except for those government checks...:-)


>These charlatans should be given 24 hours to come out with their
>hands up.  If they don't comply; then they pay whatever price
>is necessary to extricate them from the property that they are
>illegally occupying.

okay, and if the price is simply waiting?  or is *that* price too high for
you?  See my discussion of the criminal justice system, above.

I'll be interested to read your thoughts on this.
Arlin


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:33:15 GMT
Message-ID: <833124795$11689@atype.com>
Subject: Re: 105 mm howitzers
Lines: 14


In article <832985283$7582@atype.com>, firelt@ix.netcom.com (John Luebbers
) writes:

>
>There are reported to be 8 to 10 105 mm howqitzers in position near
>justus Township Mt. These will be used against freedom fighters in
>defense of the freemen. 

uh, John, did anybody say where those howitzers came from?  or who was
manning them?  Neither the FBI nor the Marshalls have any artillery, not
even mortars.  Sources, please?

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:33:36 GMT
Message-ID: <833124816$11737@atype.com>
Subject: Re: ALERT
Lines: 20


In article <832992483$7880@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>Thus spake Arlin Adams:
>
>>
>>JHistorian wrote:
>>>       Quien sabe?  However, he's one of yours -- a militiaboy.
>>
>>Why do you resort to calling people "boy?" Some kind of 
>>resentment over having the word applied to you, or just
>>cheap shots as a substitute for logic?
>==========
>
>      A substitute for logic, of course.

uh Jim, that wasn't me you just quoted.  I don't have that post on my hard
drive anymore, but that was somebody else responding to your response to
me...might want to check that.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:34:06 GMT
Message-ID: <833124846$11785@atype.com>
Subject: Re: War Veteran Wannabes: the Suicide of
Lines: 10


In article <833016783$8641@atype.com>, bogart1@earthlink.net (Tim Hill)
writes:

>War Veteran Wannabees...hmmmm..aren't they the guys who like to dress up
>in cammies and play soldier in the woods?

no, tim, they're folks like you with no military experience, who claim to
understand military subjects...sorry, but you *really* set yourself up for
that one.


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 15:34:13 GMT
Message-ID: <833124853$11801@atype.com>
Subject: Articles of Faith (was: Jesus and Militias)
Lines: 34


WARNING: THEOLOGICAL DEBATE FOLLOWS, IF YOU AIN'T INTERESTED, YOU MIGHT
WANT TO SKIP THIS ONE.



In article <832973583$7317@atype.com>, joe@junior.wariat.org (Joseph T.
Adams) writes:

>Well, here we have one of the inherent contradictions of modern
>society.
>
>If all truth is relative, then it is not possible to be objective. 
>One cannot help but view things with the biases inherent in one's own
>perspective if truth is relative.
>
>If truth is *not* relative, then all of us cannot be right.  Some of
>us - all of us, perhaps - are objectively wrong.

Hi Joe,

I guess I wasn't as clear as I might have been.  What I was trying to say
was that, in the end, ALL religious beliefs are based on acts of Faith. 
Now Faith is inherently a supra-rational act - it is going BEYOND provable
facts and acknowledging that something *not* directly provable to an
objective observer exists.  If it were objectively provable, then (as with
gravity) there would be no doubt in anyones' mind, but there would also be
no need for Faith.  Because all religious beliefs hinge on Articles of
Faith, it is at best a futile to attempt to debate them...either party to
the debate can claim different Articles of Faith, and there is no way for
the other party to disprove them.

Best
Arlin


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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 16:18:04 GMT
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Subject: Re: 105 mm howitzers
Lines: 12


In article <833014086$8560@atype.com>, gt7030c@acmex.gatech.edu (Jolly
Roger) writes:

>Drop 50, fire for effect, shake 'n' bake.
>Uff Da.

Uff Da???????  Jolly you been hangin' around dem norskis to long I tink,
eh?

Arlin
who grew up in a place where people actually talk like that :-)


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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 18:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <833134684$12295@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? -->>
Lines: 83


In article <833077114$10277@atype.com>, jdulaney@nntp1.best.com (John
Dulaney) writes:

>	You speak as being a part of the corrupt system that has destroyed
>our nation's educational standards. 

No, John, I speak from personal experience.  I am not a member of the NEA
- I refused to join either teacher's union because of their anti-gun and
anti-liberty philosophies.  Of course this means that I'm not even allowed
to teach in many 'closed shop' public school systems, but that is simply
one of the sacrifices one makes if one chooses to stand on one's
principles.

I'm also a Libertarian, and a militia member, to claim that I am 'part of
the system' is not only absurd, but irrational.  If I had wished to remain
part of the system, I could have done so by fighting the forced medical
retirement which put me out of civil service...you see besides being
partially disabled, the government wasn't real happy with the fact that I
didn't just play along with things.  I dare say that not only have I been
fighting for truth a lot longer than you have, in a number of different
venues, but I have also had access to significantly more hard information
than you ever shall.  My opinions are based on my observations and
experiences, nothing more or less.

>Of what possible value do your lies
>have when the entire world knows the truth?

Now I realize that you've led a rather sheltered life, John, else you
wouldn't have fallen for that anti-semitic nonsense to begin with; so let
me explain something to you.  There are two things you should NEVER call a
libertarian, without hard evidence to support them - Never accuse a
libertarian of cheating, and never, ever, accuse a libertarian of lying. 
Because we do not function under 'implied' or 'inherited' contracts,
social or otherwise, the only contracts we abide by are those on which we
give our word.  Our word is our bond.  My word is my bond.  You have
falsly impugned my word, and in doing so you have falsly impugned my
honor.  I shall remember that.

>	You ARE the problem we face and getting YOU and people like YOU
>OUT of the system is the battle we face today.

uh, John, yo!  wake up guy! I'm not IN the system...you obviously haven't
been paying attention to anything I or anyone else writes on this
newsgroup.  Your ignorance does you grave discredit, though I doubt you
realize that fact.

>	I already did.
>	The entirety of the rest of your posting was a repitition of the
>            same NEA text you are all ordered to push out.

Actually, John, none of  the texts I used were from the NEA, my general
discription of how Whole Language works came from a Canadian textbook, as
a matter of fact.  The historical data I presented concerning the failure
of the Look-Say methodology came from a professor friend who actually
worked on the development project at the University of Arizona.  No one
'ordered' me to say anything.  You, sir, haven't a clue what you are
talking about.


>	Problem is we've all read these lies a thousand times.
>	Since you are not allowed to diverge from these lies you are
>             stuck.	

well, no, I'm not 'stuck' as the one thing I wont diverge from is the
truth.  Guess my little addendum about lack of parental discipline really
struck a nerve, eh?  Funny thing, though, I got several email messages
>from  fellow militia members who had noted the same lack of discipline and,
in fact attributed it to the same source.  Funny how that worked out,
don't you think?  or do you now believe that your vaunted super-duper
conspiracy is playing mind control games on militia members?  If that's
the case, then how can you be certain they also aren't playing mind
control games on you?  

>	Get deprogrammed and join the Human Race!

The only person who programs me, is me.  As far as being part of the human
race, John, I most certainly am.  Since I don't live with your paranoid
racist fantasies, I associate with *all* types of humans.  Thus, one might
say that I'm actually more a part of the human race than you are.  :-)

May you have done to you as you do to others.
Arlin H. Adams


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Date: Sun, 26 May 96 19:33:03 GMT
Message-ID: <833139183$12433@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Get used to it...You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there's
Lines: 189


In article <833005091$8356@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>
>Actually, Arlin, I am fully aware of my power to change things of
>which I do not approve.  However, unlike you militists, my weapon is
>reason, not treason. 

ah, so tell me Michael, if the point comes where you find that reason no
longer prevails, what will you do then?  What do you see as your options,
should the government's actions overstep *your* tolerance limits?

> I actually happen to think that my government is
>a pretty damn good one.  No, its not perfect.  But it's certainly not
>the evil empire you militists try to make it out to be.  

You certainly have the right to make that judgement if you wish. 
Obviously we disagree, as our standards are somewhat different.

>And its
>certainly a hell of a lot better than any of you weekend warriors
>could do.

ah, and on what criteria do you base that judgement?  You seem to know
almost nothing of who we are, what we stand for, or what we intend to do -
one might question whether you even have sufficient information to form a
valid opinion in this matter.


>>Unfortunately for him, *we* are doing something.  
>
>Yes, in fact you *are* doing something.  Let's see...stockpiling
>military weapons,

and ammunition, and food, and medical supplies, and other survival needs. 
I'm sorry you have problems with our self-sufficiency.  Does it bother you
that you may be more dependent on the system than we are, or is it that we
are simply different?  

> proposing the violent overthrow of my elected
>government, 

no, that's not true.  We are proposing armed defense of ourselves and our
communities against possible future depredations by the federal
bureaucracy...as far as any elected officials owned by you, well since I
don't know exactly who you have in your pocket, it's hard for me to answer
that one.

>engaging in criminal behavior

you have knowledge of criminal behavior on the part of the Constitutional
Militias?  I challenge you to produce any evidence supporting this claim.

> and keeping the best
>equipped LEO's in the world at bay with your massive weapons stockpile
>("Freemen"), 

hmm, you're a bit confused here - no militia unit is keeping "LEO's at
bay".  As for the FM, they are not now, nor have they ever been part of
the CM.  They're anarchists, Michael, they wouldn't even think of
associating with us.  Now what is this "massive weapons stockpile" you're
talking about, anyway?  

>commiting terrorist acts against domestic targets and
>causing the deaths of innocent women, children and men ("McVeigh").

again, you're more than a bit confused.  First off, the Nichols and
McVeigh travelling side show hasn't been convicted of anything yet...or
don't you hold with the concept of innocent until proven guilty?  In any
case, McVeigh had been THROWN OUT of militias in two seperate states (MI
and AZ).  He was not one of us, nor did any of us support the OKC bombing.
 But let's carry your guilt by association to a logical parallel - in the
last several years there have been a number of members of both major
political parties who have gone to jail for felonies - everything from
embezzlement to having sex with minors.  Do you belong to one of those
political parties, Michael?  If so, are you then involved in embezzlement
or sex with minors?  Sauce for the goose, Michael.


>Yep, that's something alright.  And you're right it is unfortunate
>for, and for every other law-abiding American citizen.

We are law-abiding American citizens, Michael, in fact although you don't
know it, you probably see us on the street, everyday.


>>Now that implies that
>>people *can* change the situation, which in turn shows him up as the
lazy
>>coward he is.  
>
>Lazy coward, am I?  Because I choose not to take up arms against my
>own government?  

Actually, considering what you've written above, no, I'd say you were more
on the order of misinformed, and perhaps overly idealistic.  You see, you
provide more data, and my analysis changes.

>Or because I realize that reasonable restrictions on
>some of my freedoms are not the first steps in a secret government
>plot to turn this nation into Orwell's _1984_?

now *that* I would classify as downright foolish.  If you choose to
consider the government your master, I suppose that's your right; but
please expect no sympathy here.


>>Of course he doesn't like that, so he tries to assuage his
>>ego by lecturing us on how 'wrong' we are.  
>>
>>In the end, when he figures out that his cause is hopeless, he will be
>>caught in a dichotomy - either he can run away again (just as he's run
>>away from his responsibilities in regard to maintaining his own
liberty),
>>which would be admitting we were right - or - he can join us, which
would
>>be tough, because it would be admitting we were right, as well.  Should
be
>>interesting, don't you think?

>
>Um, not quite.  Look, I know that you are so indoctrinated into the
>manly men's "patriot" movement that you can't see the forest for the
>trees.

LOL!  man, I sure wouldn't let the women in *my* group hear you refer to
the movement that way, if I were you.  It's nice that you admit your
sexist bias up front like that, though.

>  But, trust me Arlin, you are dreaming.  It is your, not my,
>cause which is hopeless.

because you say so?  on what do you base this analysis?

>  You guys haven't a snowball's chance in hell
>of taking over this country. 

oh, that's okay, we'll be quite satisfied if we simply preserve our
communities, our way of life, and our essential liberties...no need to
take over the whole shooting match....  Please remember Michael, that *we*
are *defensive* organizations, it is portions of the fe(de)ral government
which have become offensive.


> What you will end up doing (if your
>bravado ever extends past posting to this newsgroup - which I highly
>doubt) 

*sigh* Michael, you've already proven your judgement to be faulty, and
your penchant for inaction to be almost total, so why should I be
concerned about your opinion of me?  Your inability to distinguish between
courage and bravado, between honor and hot air, brings dishonor only upon
yourself.

>is getting yourself killed and giving the government the
>support it needs to *really* limit, if not abolish, the right of
>private citizens to keep and bear arms.

They are already in the process of "really" limiting RKBA.  Whether you've
felt the direct impact of those limitations or not, does not make them any
less real.  Indeed many of us are working quite hard to remove support for
the government's anti-gun policies, through both social and political
channels...and slowly, we are succeeding.  Which scares you more, Michael,
the fact that we are willing to die for our rights, or the fact that we
are becoming a *political* force to be reckoned with?


>And by the way, you need not post a reply to this message.  We *all*
>know what it would say.  In fact, I'll save you the time and effort
>and post it for you:

Why Michael, I'm surprised, so proud of your bigotry that you want to
demonstrate it on the internet?  how interesting.

>"No commie boy!  It is *you* who are dreaming.  Me and my gun buddies
>are gonna defeat you and your jackbooted LEO's.  I mean what I say!
>I'm not just posting big bad messages to this newsgroup.  We're making
>real plans to take real action with our real guns and then we're
>gonna...yadda yadda yadda...

Well, as we can all see, your attempt at humor exhibits only your obvious
misconceptions about who I am, who the members of the militias are, and
what it is we're actually doing.   This was actually quite helpful,
Michael, as we are rarely able to find an anti-militia bigot who is as
sexist, as foolish, and as computer literate as you seem to be...through
your excellent negative example you've done us a service, thankyou!

Arlin H. Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 19:48:05 GMT
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Subject: Re: Get used to it...You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there's
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In article <833005103$8372@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>>
>>In article <832907925$3258@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
>>writes:
>
>I know you hope to go out in a blaze of glory with six guns a firin'
>and then ride off into the sunset on your trusty steed

Why Michael, I must really be getting to you, conscience starting to
bother you a bit?  here you are spreading your prejudice across two
seperate posts...how interesting.


From ahabiz@aol.com Mon May 27 15:29:37 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 26 May 96 19:48:21 GMT
Message-ID: <833140101$12531@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? -->>
Lines: 237


Now, John, you didn't think that hiding this underneath an ad for your web
site was really going to keep me from finding it, did you?  Shame on you,
if you did.

In article <833077127$10293@atype.com>, jdulaney@nntp1.best.com (John
Dulaney) writes:

>In September 1993, Americans were stunned to learn that half the
>adult population - some 90 million Americans - have such poor
>literacy skills that they can scarcely cope with the demands of our
>high-tech economy. That was the finding of the U.S. Department of
>Education's $14-million survey of adult literacy in the U.S. The

yep.  there are some quibbles concerning the exact manner in which they
measured literacy in some instances, but overall, that's true.

>question is: How could so many Americans - who had spent more time
>in school than any previous generation, on whom more money had been
>spent than in any previous generation - emerge from their education
>so poorly equipped in basic literacy skills?

The answer to this question is, of course that there are a number of
factors which have effected literacy rates.  These include such things as
social and cultural upheavals, which have had long term effects on the
stability of family structures, the fact that in many instances (parent
gets a promotion, job gets moved to a different state, etc) children
change schools every two or three years, often moving between widely
disparate educational systems, the lack of education resulting from lack
of discipline (which I noted in a previous post), cultural discontinuity
between teaching materials and the cultural and social environment in
which the students live, the list is actually quite long.   

There is also an unstated assumption in that question that throwing money
at educational problems somehow is supposed to be meaningful, this is
obviously not the case, and the study certainly provides evidence to
support the fact that money alone will NEVER solve the problems of public
educaton in this country.  When you read this propaganda of your's John,
you need to watch for unstated assumptions like that.


>Blumenfeld answers that question in his no-holds-barred examination
>of the decline of literacy in America and the deliberate dumbing
>down of its people.

Pardon me for asking, John, but as a publicly espoused antisemite, how
comfortable are you with drawing support from a Jewish intellectual like
Dr. Blumenfeld?  I find this most interesting - incongruous and
hypocritical as well, mind you, but interesting nonetheless.

> He puts the blame squarely on the shoulders of
>the educational leaders who decided early in this century to change
>the purpose of education from its traditional academic function to
>a radical social one.

Now you see, John, this is one of those little propaganda discontinuities
you need to watch for - the writer starts out talking about the current
generation, and then skips merrily back 90 years to the turn of the
century.  Think for a moment, John, if the educational policies espoused
at the turn of the century had been as debilitating as this author would
have you believe, would they not have had a more immediate effect?  Would
not their effects have been felt throughout that time frame, rather than
simply 'materializing' in the public school system over the last few
years?  Logic, John, it's what's missing here, and what you need to apply
rigorously to spot this kind of propagandistic nonsense.

> It was John Dewey and his colleagues who
>decided that high literacy was an obstacle to their progressive
>agenda and that, therefore, the teaching of reading had to be
>changed to produce a more socially desirable result.

Actually, that's about half right.  John Dewey and his colleagues most
certainly *did* advocate, and make, modifications to the educational
system.  However they did NOT do this from a socialist or 'progressive'
perspective, but rather looking to support *industry*.  Dewey was very
upfront about this too - he specifically stated that his educational
reforms were intended 'to produce good workers for industry'.   In point
of fact, John, Dewey, was a proto-fascist, *not* a socialist.  Now either
the author is lying, or he hasn't a clue and has never actually read any
of Dewey's writings.  In either case, his analysis is factually wrong.


> The results
>for the nation have been disastrous.

Actually, the vaunted traditional textbook method of instruction, the one
that you espouse in place of whole language, was the result of the Dewey
reforms.  While I do NOT believe that was neccessarily the best thing that
could have happened to public education, it's absolutely astounding that
the author could so blatantly contradict her/himself.  Utterly amazing.


>
>Whole Language is the latest manifestation of that progressive
>plan.

You see John, this is another one of those propaganda techniques, where
the author makes an unsupported (and unsupportable) assumption, states it
as fact, and then moves on, in the hope that no one will notice.

> It has not only replaced intensive phonics in the classroom

This is not true.  The phonics instruction in whole language classrooms,
through the use of word sounds, continues in all classes throughout the
school day.  it is therefore a very intense methodology.  What whole
language *has* replaced has been the teaching of isolated phonics lessons,
which had no relationship to anything else the students were learning, and
which was restricted to one period per day.  The traditional textbook
method, besides being less effective, was also decidedly less intense.

>but also the old Dick-and Jane Look-say reading programs.

well I should hope so.  The whole point of whole language pedagogy is to
get the kids functioning as fluent readers of real world print media just
as quickly as possible.  And it does - again by practicing reading skills
throughout the school day rather than in one isolated class period.  

>a whole new dimension to the reading process: subjectivism and
>deconstructionism.

uh, actually that would be *two* dimensions, John, apparently the author
can't count, either.  In any case, this is yet another example of the
half-truths of which he is so fond.  Reading is inherently a *subjective*
process, this isn't introduced by whole language, merely acknowledged.  An
easy proof of the subjective nature of reading is the current debate over
the 2nd Ammendment.  Obviously, if reading produced some sort of
absolutely objective knowledge, then everyone who read it would interpret
it the same way...which is obviously not the case.  Instead, a variety of
*subjective* interpretations are espoused by different people, because, in
point of fact reading requires subjective interpretation by the reader.
It's also obvious that the author was presuming that no one reading this
would understand the difference between constructivism and
deconstructionism.  Deconstructionism is a post-modern text interpretation
method in which the analyst literally 'deconstructs' the text, through a
series of processes which are really irrelevant here, since they are NOT a
part of whole language.  Constructivism, on the other hand, is simply the
fact that we take what we read, integrate it with what we already know,
and that's how we *construct* new knowledge.  As you can see,
constructivism is nothing more than applied common sense.  As you can also
see, the writer would have found criticizing common sense to be
counterproductive, and thus substituted a completely unrelated concept. 
Propaganda techniques again, John, see?

> In addition, it has become an integral part of
>Outcome-Based Education. 

Actually OBE, which is nothing more than an unusable program put together
by a bunch of governmental bureaucrats desperately attempting to appear as
though they are doing *something* to improve education, has tried to piggy
back on the success of whole language for the better part of this decade. 
Funny thing, though, while whole language is always effective, OBE never
is...interesting how the government does that, don't you think?

>Thus, it is a far more lethal form of
>pedagogy than anything that has proceeded it.

The only 'lethal' pedagogies of which I am aware in this country, are
those in courses taught by the military.  John, this is a nonsense
sentence - a 'lethal pedagogy' would either be one in which the students
learned to kill, or one in which the students *were* killed...even public
schools haven't gotten to that point yet!  :-)  [note for John - that was
a joke!]  Here the author is simply trying to play on your emotions, with
yet another unsupported, and unsupportable assertion, stated in a factual
manner.


>
>Blumenfeld writes:
>
>Whole Language educators are perpetrating a fraud. They are telling
>parents that whole language is a new and better way of teaching
>children to read when, in reality, it is nothing of the sort. For
>all intents and purposes, whole language is a way of preventing
>children from becoming fluent, accurate phonetic readers.

This is a propaganda technique called "The Big Lie" John.  You may be
familiar with it as it was practiced by your fellow anti-semites in
Germany during WWII.  The truth is that all research shows whole language
produces a higher percentage of fluent readers than the traditional
textbook-in-isolation methods.  In other words, the author is lying by
stating the EXACT OPPOSITE of the truth, and pretending that this is some
great secret...of course there was a lot of that in the first post you put
up...so perhaps you can remember seeing other examples of this nonsense
before, eh? 

You will also note that the author subtly juxtaposes two educational terms
in an attempt to blur a major distinction.  Fluent readers are folks who
read like adults.  Phonetic readers are those children in an early stage
of reading where they are still sounding out the words.  You can tell late
stage phonetic readers by watching their mouth and throat - they'll
subvocalize the word sounds, in order to 'hear them' sufficiently to check
for accuracy.  Fluent readers do not do this.  Rather, they have moved
beyond having to sound out the words one syllable at a time, and have
moved on to the stage of being able to scan text interpret it internally,
thus reading much faster than would be possible under a sound-it-all-out
system.  Fluent readers, read like adults.  In attempting to juxtapose the
terms fluent reader and phonetic reader, the propagandist is merely
working to insure your confusion, nothing else.

> It is a
>new way of creating reading disability, academic confusion and
>learning frustration, a new way of crippling a child's linguistic
>development."

There is no valid research to support any of these accusations.  In point
of fact the research available shows just the reverse to be true.  Because
the traditional textbook methodology either partially or completely shuts
out several types of learners, (remember the kids in high school who could
barely read, but could do wonderful things in shop class, or with musical
instruments?   I suggest that you might want to read Howard Gardener's
book MULTIPLE INTELLIGENCES, to find out why) the tradtional textbook
methodology increases reading problems and *decreases* the likelihood of
producing fluent readers.  'academic confusion' is a nonsense term,
although we've already seen your author has no aversion to misuse of
words, as long as they sound impressive.  Whole language provides
opportunities to approach topics from a variety of directions, thus
actually decreasing the students' frustration level; and finally
linguistic development is a psycho-social function, of which the
educational process is only one contributing factor.  In other words,
John, the author is clueless and assumes that you will be too, otherwise
you wouldn't buy into his nonsense.

>
>And Blumenfeld proves everything he says with thorough, eye-opening
>documentation.

No, John, actually he doesn't.  His entire book is written in the same
manner as this excerpt I've just critiqued - it uses standard propaganda
techniques including the Big Lie, misuse of terms, misdefinition of terms,
and nonsense terms, in an attempt to build a case out of thin air.  Once
you get rid of all of his propaganda, that's still all you have left -
thin air. 

 Wake up John!  You've been had!

Arlin H. Adams M.Ed., NRA Life Member, Militia member, and Libertarian
Curmudgeon.


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In article <833031184$8925@atype.com>, hk157@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Janet
L. Littler) writes:

>. C'mon, get your oar in the water.

actually Janet, many of us have long wondered if he was capable of having
both oars in the water :-)

Arlin


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Date: Tue, 28 May 96 4:03:27 GMT
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Subject: Re: Hill wants state control of internet
Lines: 8


In article <833241783$17817@atype.com>, Eric Engelmann 
writes:

>His web page note speaks for itself.

cheez Eric, you expect him to take *responsibility* for his actions??? 
but he's a liberal....


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Date: Tue, 28 May 96 15:18:15 GMT
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Subject: Re: Reno's death squad
Lines: 132


Hi Harry,


>             We're done.  Period.   I went to several militia and
>             10th Amendment meetings since '93.  I hate to say it,
>             but what I saw was a small band of devout, but loser,
>             Christians.  I gave it a fair chance.

hmm, well, that depends.  IF you at least tried to do something, tried to
make a change, and failed at doing so, then I guess I could agree that you
'gave it a fair chance'.  On the other hand, if you sat around at those
meetings waiting for someone else to tell you what to do, then no, all
you've really done is seek a rationalization for your own inaction. 
There's a big difference.

>             Hell, most of them didn't even *exist* on paper.  What
>             are *they* going to do?  Nothing, that's what.
>
>             Absolutely nothing.

Oh, I don't know about "absolutely nothing", though certainly the results
will be diminished to the degree that you and your skills will not be
present to assist them.  Tell me, Harry, if we fail, but only by a small
margin, will you have any problems looking at yourself in the mirror, or
will you continue to go on pointing your finger elsewhere, saying 'him -
he was the one who didn't do enough!' ?


>             Likewise with the American public.  Nothing, as long Sam
>             keeps making empty promises that they can hang some small
>             MOLECULE of hope upon.

uh, Harry, WE are the American public - each of us - you, me, and that guy
behind the tree.  If you, or I, or anyone else, wants the 'American
public' to do something, guess where they have to start?  Yep, right there
at home. 

>             I thought that Duke might accomplish something, too.
>
>             Nothing.

Well, I'm not a David Duke fan - I'm allergic to klan members - but my
question remains the same Harry - if you thought he might have
accomplished something, what did you do to help?


>             The "Republican Revolution" is another sad joke.  

Again the question arises - if this seemed like an opportunity for
positive change, where were you when it began?  What were *you* doing?


>             You're certainly free to sacrifice yourself on some
>             noble but hopeless cause.  It doesn't matter a lot to
>             me. 

au contraire Harry!  It obviously matters a great deal to you, or you
wouldn't be here on m.a.m. seeking self-justification.  Now that you know
you wont find it here, what will *you* do next?  You see Harry, the
problem with individual responsibility is that you can't really run away
>from  it.  Since the responsibility is *yours*, is in fact actually a part
of you (as it is a part of each of us) you simply can't escape it.  Will
you turn and face your responsibilities Harry, or will you try running
somewhere else?


>            It's kind of sad, but personally, I can't see
>             getting myself killed or imprisoned for a bunch of 
>             lazy, middle-class knuckleheads, no matter how 
>             cool-sounding the slogans are.

hmm, let's see, those 'knuckleheads' are actively trying to change a bad
situation, and you aren't...if *they* are lazy, where does that leave you?
  [oh, and BTW, most of us AREN'T here for the 'cool sounding slogans'
either - it's the ideas behind the slogans that matter Harry - just
thought you'd want to know.]


>             Actually, it's pretty damn funny to me a lot of time.
>             It's like watching a bad movie.

perhaps so, but the question you need to ask yourself is whether or not
life is supposed to be a spectator sport....


>             It took a couple of years, but my wife finally talked
>             some sense into me.  "We take care of ourselves now,
>             we can't save other people"  "Our family comes before
>             political or ethical ideals"          

if you give up your ethics, what will be left to hold your family
together?

             
>             Hell, half the patriots are CROOKS!  They're scamming
>             the system, jabbering about the Constitution while
>             doing White Power salutes.  It's incredible to me.  The
>             dang Christians are jabbering about "freedom", and then
>             jabbering about the "right to life" in the next, and
>             jabbering about "the drug war" in the next.

That's funny, Harry, none of the people I work with use 'white power'
anything.  My group includes Christians, at least one Zen practitioner, a
couple of new age types, we're very ecumenical.  We don't jabber a whole
lot either.  On the other hand, since I'm one of the folks who helped get
the group started (primarily because I hadn't found one I really wanted to
join, up to that point) I guess my question to you is - if you didn't like
the group that was already there, why didn't you at least *try* to form
one of your own - one you *would* be comfortable associating with?  


>             When they figure out that they can't abridge other
>             people's "freedom" without abridging their own, maybe
>             they'll get somewhere.

Without you there to help them learn that, Harry, how much longer do you
think it will take before they discover it on their own?


>             It's not going to happen, though.  It's a very bad
>             bet at this point.  Much better to bet on Sam, I think.
>           
>             Hail, Caesar!

You might try studying a little history, Harry.  If you do, I think you'll
find that those who grovel are only safe as long as there are others, like
us, who resist the Beast.  If we are in fact destroyed, the Beast's
appetite will not be sated, it's thirst for blood will not be slaked, and
it will need to find other prey.  What will you do then, Harry?  What will
YOU do then?



From ahabiz@aol.com Tue May 28 15:23:26 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 28 May 96 15:48:35 GMT
Message-ID: <833298515$21662@atype.com>
Subject: Re: @@@@You people are nothing but idiots@@@@@@@@
Lines: 9


In article <833275984$20029@atype.com>, horseman@indirect.com (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:

>Then you're amazingly capable of skimming past the reams that have been
>posted here concerning federal failures to police their own when their
>own kill people (eg, Ruby Ridge/Waco).

Oh, c'mon Scott!  it's easy!  all he has to do is close his eyes....


From ahabiz@aol.com Tue May 28 15:23:27 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 28 May 96 15:33:19 GMT
Message-ID: <833297599$21548@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Where can i down load Mein Kamp written by Adolf Hitler on the internet
Lines: 15


In article <833263392$19301@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>I would have no idea.  But you are asking in the right place.  I'm
>sure one of our resident militists will be happy to whip that out from
>his hotlist and email it to you in a jiffy.

y'know kid, if you'd actually bothered to *read* any of this newsgroup,
before wading in, you might have discovered that we tend to chase the
nazidiots out of here whenever they raise their unwashed heads.

Arlin H. Adams
[Who, among other things, has been declared a 'race traitor' by the white
supremacists]


From ahabiz@aol.com Tue May 28 15:23:27 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 28 May 96 16:33:12 GMT
Message-ID: <833301192$21820@atype.com>
Subject: Re: ALERT
Lines: 10


In article <833286783$20516@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>
>      I've sent the message and reply to AOL for them to determine who it
>is that did write it.  I shall be more than appy to find out who it was
>and whta can be done about showing them the error of their ways.

Thankyou.  Please let me know what you find out in this matter. 


From ahabiz@aol.com Tue May 28 15:23:28 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 28 May 96 16:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <833302083$21905@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? -->>
Lines: 12


In article <833291292$20759@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

> It reminded me too much
>of the same fanatical refusal of you militiaboys to even begin to
consider
>that there is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat.

sorry you feel that way, Jim.  Y'see there are as many different cat
skinning techniques as there are militia units...versatility is one of our
strong suites.


From ahabiz@aol.com Tue May 28 21:11:08 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 28 May 96 16:18:06 GMT
Message-ID: <833300286$21764@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Who are the Officers of maltia groups
Lines: 12


In article <833256287$18785@atype.com>, horseman@indirect.com (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:

>
> Now, let's get this straight: only groups of armed people in 
>outright rebellion against their lawful government are "real" Militia?

no, no, Scott, you missed the point!  according to mark, the 'real'
militia are ANYONE other than us...haven't you figured that out yet? :-)

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Tue May 28 21:11:09 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 28 May 96 17:03:03 GMT
Message-ID: <833302983$21944@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Get used to it...You will lose all your rights sooner or later and there's
Lines: 22


In article <833257983$18857@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>You have already admitted (aw, don't try and take it back now) that
>*any* restriction on your personal liberties is per se unreasonable.
>Accordingly, you feel that the Constitution should guarantee every
>American the right to: (1) ingest any and every kind of narcotic
>known; (2) carry concealed all manner of military devices and weaponry
>(including weapons grade plutonium); and (3) advocate and promote
>*any* agenda, including the assasination of our President and the
>violent overthrow of our government.

y'know, Michael, I can't really decide what's better about your trolls -
that you spend so much time on them, thus keeping you off the streets, and
effectively out of action; or that once you figure out that you will
accomplish nothing here, you will have generated so many new nightmares
for yourself, through fantasies like those above,  that you are most
likely to do the typical liberal thing and simply blame yourself.  After
all, as a liberal you believe it's all your fault, anyway, now don't you?

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Wed May 29 14:03:18 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 3:18:26 GMT
Message-ID: <833339906$25276@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 14


In article <833328184$24709@atype.com>, bogart1@earthlink.net (Tim Hill)
writes:

>No, they just bomb day care centers and defend folks like David Koresh 
>who execute children after a lifetime of raping them.

tim, tim, tim, you've been trying this same troll for the last two
years...no militia person, ever bombed any day care center, and Koresh was
still an American citizen with the same basic rights as anyone else.  See,
I've got the entire rebuttal down to less than a paragraph.  You really
need to try a different song.

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Wed May 29 14:03:20 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 3:18:37 GMT
Message-ID: <833339917$25292@atype.com>
Subject: Re: eplurubus unum website
Lines: 10


In article <833324591$24629@atype.com>, freematt@bronze.coil.com (Matthew
Gaylor) writes:

>Proof positive that public education is deficient.  See the above
sentence
>for confirmation.

Now Matthew, you know he'll just claim that his grammar is the only legal
grammar...:-)


From ahabiz@aol.com Wed May 29 14:03:21 PDT 1996
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Date: Wed, 29 May 96 3:03:05 GMT
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Subject: Re: "Worst Nightmare"
Lines: 11


In article <833333592$24860@atype.com>, Solomon 
writes:

oh look! a troll!  how droll!
and just look at whose name he stole!

Arlin
[who figured Dr. Seuss was about the level the troll's author was ready
for, in any case]



From ahabiz@aol.com Wed May 29 14:03:22 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 3:03:19 GMT
Message-ID: <833338999$25135@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 15


In article <833310200$23411@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Do you think that early Americans all had easy access to a "Bonne Homme 
>Richard"?

uh, mark, I think you missed the logic here:
a.  The Bonne Homme Richard was a privately owned ship.
b.  The Bonne Homme Richard was armed with military weapons.(cannon, don't
you know...)
therefore
c.  Military weapons were available for private ownership.

simple enough, really. 


From ahabiz@aol.com Wed May 29 14:03:22 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 3:03:30 GMT
Message-ID: <833339010$25151@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Ohio and Schweitzer
Lines: 24


In article <833271483$19788@atype.com>, horseman@indirect.com (Scott Alan
Malcomson) writes:

>:  Mililitia 'Chaplain'?? Heh a man of god playing with guns and 
>: wearing cammies.
>
>ROFL! Hempster, even my OLD chaplain --- the one who served the 3rd 
>Squadron, 3rd Armored Cavalry Regiment, U.S. Army --- wore cammies! As 
>for toting rifles, it's hardly unheard of. Try reading up on the Battle o

>the Bulge for some examples of chaplains in combat, some of whom were 
>awarded Congressional Medals of Honor...some posthumously.

Hi Scott, 
pardon for jumping in, but since frankie is apparently ignorant of the
history of military chaplains, I'd just like to interject that the history
of armed chaplains extends at *least* back to to WWII.  Y'see my dad was
an Army chaplain with one of the combat engineer groupss which helped
recapture New Guinea.  He, and all of his fellow chaplains were required
by general orders to go armed at all times.  Good thing, too, as he had to
USE said firearm defensively on several occaisions.

Arlin Adams


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Date: Wed, 29 May 96 3:03:50 GMT
Message-ID: <833339030$25183@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Reno's death squad
Lines: 345


In article <833313784$23815@atype.com>, musashi@dimensional.com (Harry
Langford) writes:

>      As posted before, I did write letters, for almost
>              two years, to various congress reps.
>
>              A waste of time.  Simply looking at the legislation
>              that's been passed in that time is proof.

Harry, that's why *we* are all here.  I doubt there's anyone among the
militia members here on m.a.m. who hasn't repeatedly called, written, or
faxed their congresscritter, handed out leaflets, done volunteer work, all
of that.  Once the system proved that it had become almost totally
unresponsive, slowly, and for some of us painfully, we became aware that
armed resistance may well be the only effective alternative left.  I
dunno, I guess it's just that, for most of us, running away isn't seen as
a positive option.


>              I also wasted several hundred dollars in donations,
>              copies, transcripts, etc.

Hmm, I guess it depends on who you donated to, can't really comment on
that, other than to say that even though I live just above the poverty
level, I still send a hundred bucks or so the NRA every year...not because
I think they can rescue the situation all by themselves, but because any
organization which stands up for individual rights makes it that much
harder for the statists to operate.  I guess I think of it as putting my
money where my mouth is, you know?

As far as the 'copies, transcripts, etc' go, again, I'm uncertain of
exactly what you purchased, but I would ask you if, had you not gotten
that material, would you be as aware of the problems facing us as you are
now?  Would you have known to your current degree of certainty just how
corrupt and evil portions of our government have become?  We pay for
knowledge in different ways, not always with money, but as long as we
learn from our expenditures, I'm not at all sure we can call them a
complete waste of effort.

>              Although, I have to admit, I did get to see the real
>              FLIR video out of it all.  That alone was worth the
>              price.

ah, my point exactly.


>: present to assist them.  Tell me, Harry, if we fail, but only by a
small
>: margin, will you have any problems looking at yourself in the mirror,
or
>: will you continue to go on pointing your finger elsewhere, saying 'him
-
>: he was the one who didn't do enough!' ?
>
>
>              Nope.  I've already got my Canadian passport ready. :)

uh, Harry, if you'll notice in the above, I didn't specify from where you
might go on pointing your finger....


>: uh, Harry, WE are the American public - each of us - you, me, and that
guy
>: behind the tree.  If you, or I, or anyone else, wants the 'American
>: public' to do something, guess where they have to start?  Yep, right
there
>: at home. 
>
>              Oh, come on.  

Well, okay, maybe that guy behind the tree is just there to report on our
conversation, so I guess that only leaves you and me, eh?:-)  More
seriously though, I would ask you to stop and think for a moment - whether
or not you like it, you *are* a role model.  For the young, those less
fortunate, those who have perhaps begun to realize that something has gone
terribly wrong in the world, but aren't quite sure yet what to do about it
- those folks.  THOSE are the people who are looking around, trying to
find examples, trying to learn from the actions of others, the best way to
deal with this current mess that we're in.  Here you are, an older,
successful guy, someone who looks  and acts quite knowledgable about the
situation.  So tell me, Harry, what do such folks learn from watching you?
 What does your example teach them?


>                 Charles Duke.  Donated money.

My most humble appologies for misunderstanding.


>                 You know what's really funny?  I'm essentially
>         a Fed, so I get crap and suspicion from the militia guys,
>         'cause I have money to donate and have short hair and
>         white socks.
>
>                 I get crap from the Feds because I actually believe
>         there should be non-baised enforcement of laws, that the laws
>         apply to everyone.
>
>                 What the hell kind of crap is this?

well, it's crap, no doubt about that, but nothing any number of other
folks, including myself, haven't gone through.  Harry, I used to work for
an INTELLIGENCE organization...do you have any IDEA of the level of
garbage people in the movement threw at me when I first got involved?  And
yes, I *still* have short hair.  And yes I still wear white socks some
times...except NOW they're white BOOT socks.


>                 Seriously,  what kind of deal is it where *I* get
>         shafted by both sides, when I'm really tired of both sides,
>         and when I could be plundered the system for some good cash?

The same deal received by everyone else who works to maintain their moral
and ethical standards in this decaying society.  Why in the heck do you
think WE are all HERE?

>: Again the question arises - if this seemed like an opportunity for
>: positive change, where were you when it began?  What were *you* doing?
>
>                Wasting time and money.   
>                Writing worthless letters.

In other words you were taking every available action you could think of,
and learning that those sorts of actions were no longer effective.  Just
like the rest of us, you were learning from your mistakes.  C'mon Harry,
everybody makes mistakes, and the ones you made are the same ones WE all
made.  The lessons you learned were the lessons WE learned as well -
that's why we've all, in the end, found ourselves here.


>              Actually, this is true.  It does matter to me.
>              What matters to me is that I've always had this
>              picture of how the country is.  And it's not true.

Harry the ideal is rarely found, and even more rarely maintained.  But
that doesn't make it any less valid as an ideal, as a goal for which to
strive.

>              It's taken me several years to figure it out, but
>              the great majority of hte population doesn't believe
>              in equal rights.  They claim to, but they don't.

The majority of the population doesn't understand what equal rights
actually entail.  They certainly don't understand that equal rights *also*
require equal responsibilities.  Obviously, they can't *do* something they
don't currently comprehend.  But that doesn't mean that they can't learn. 
My experience has been that people learn these sorts of things best by
being exposed to consistent examples - what do you think?

>              The great majority of the population doesn't believe
>              in honesty. 

I certainly couldn't say *what* the great majority of the population
believe, since as we just discussed, most of them don't understand the
real implications of much of what they *claim* to believe.  I can,
however, say that the people with whom I willingly associate value honesty
highly, else I would not go near them.

>             There *are* posted rules, but if you play
>              by them, you end up bitter and poor.  I'm doing MUCH
>              better, financial, since I started playing by the real
>              rules.

hmm, well, as a Libertarian, I generally play by *my* rules.  I guess my
question in this instance, Harry, is this: whose rules are *you* playing
by?

>              I would wish that we had a real American culture in
>              the country, but quite frankly, we don't.  I absolutely
>              don't believe it anymore.  

Culture is something that happens when people come together and form real,
supportive, communities.  In many places no such real communities exist. 
Therefore the only semblance of culture is some sort of destructive,
self-involved, hedonistic temporary construct.  I would certainly classify
NYC as such a place.  Good heavens, large portions of THIS metropolitan
area (DC) are also that way...but that doesn't excuse me from working with
*my* friends to build the kind of community to which *we* aspire...I guess
you'd call it an American community - I know we sure do.


>              Don't knock running until you try it.  It's done *me*
>              a world of good.  I wonder if Canada will be as good
>              an opportunity?

Well, it would seem that running has kept you alive.  It would also seem
that it hasn't kept you very happy.  Any idea why that might be?


>               Sure, the ideas matter.  But not to the bulk of the 
>               population. 

Harry, right now the bulk of the population doesn't even know what the
ideas, and ideals, of freedom are!  They've been indoctrinated against
them for a long, long, time.  25 years ago, when I was in high school,
there was a musical group known as The Fifth Dimension - you may have
heard of them.  One of the songs they recorded was a portion of the
Declaration of Independence, set to music - The part that begins with the
words "We hold these truths...".  One Sunday, they sang that song as part
of the half time show for a football game - the network was subsequently
innundated by phone calls from angry viewers wanting to know why they'd
allowed *communist* propaganda on the air.  That was a quarter of a
century ago.  The point of all this, Harry is that much of the struggle
which lies before us is NOT a contest of arms (though it may indeed come
to that) but a process of EDUCATION.  In as much as this is so, we, in our
capicity as the militias, are at *least* as much teachers as we are
fighters.

>               The bulk of the population are inherently dishonest,
>               but desperately trying to convince themselves that
>               they're not.

This, I cannot speak to, as I am not empowered to judge their moral values
- only to maintain my own.


>               Why should *I* get killed defending a bunch of clowns
>               who *deserve* to be plundered by an evil government?

Well, I can't answer that either, since I don't hang out with that sort of
individual.  If I have to die, it will be in defense of my friends, who
make up the community of which I am a part.  Maybe the situation is such,
that what you really need to do is find a more constructive
community...but then I think I've mentioned that already.


>                 It's not a question of "giving up ethics".  It's 
>                 a matter of adopting ethics that work.  The only
>                 purpose for ethics in a society is to enhance the
>                 survival value of its members.

ah well, here we stand in very different spaces, you and I.  For I hold
that the only purpose of ethics in a community are to operationalize the
moral values of the community members.


>                 If my "ethics" endanger my survival, what good
>                 are they?

If survival means constantly running, living in anger and fear, what good
is that?


>                 I refuse to be exploited anymore on the basis of
>                 an ethical heritage that isn't working.

No one can exploit us against our will, Harry.  It is always a choice
whether we allow someone power over us, or not.  Anything less is an
abrogation of individual responsibility.


>                  That's a good question.  Probably  because I have
>                  no desire to be a "leader".

May I ask why you would not wish to be a leader?

>                   I've found, over the 
>                  past few years, that I don't particularly like
>                  people in general.

Ah, here my question is: people in general, or simply those you associate
with currently?


>                  It's like watching a bunch of robots going through
>                  the motions.   Do you think Holloman can *think*?

Hmm, if you mean that in the sense of 'is he currently using his intellect
in a critical, analytical fashion' then I would agree that he is not.  But
he's young, Harry, and he's been very heavily indoctrinated - we can all
see that.  Yet I believe he has the capacity to think.  Our challenge with
here, then, is to confront him in ways that may force him to exercise that
capacity.  

>                   I don't think Pittcavage can, either.

Ah, well now, pittcavage is another kind of a beastie altogether.  He
*can* think.  It's just that he's in continual self-inflicted pain.  His
low self image, which he externalizes through his pitiful attempts at
snobbery, makes him incapable of considering himself to be an acceptable
human being.  In order to off-set this, he has taken on the impossible
task of attempting to single-handedly stop the movement.  Of course we
continue to grow apace, which means that his self image continues to
lower, his self-inflicted pain continues to grow, and he struggles even
harder, wallowing along toward his inevitable selfdestruction.  The only
question in my mind, is whether he has intentionally chosen this evil
road, or whether the pain, even at the start, was so intense as to blind
him to the basic concepts of right and wrong.  I doubt we'll ever know.


>                  In fact,
>                  as near as I can estimate, at least half the 
>                  population can't think; they just react with their
>                  programming.

I wont debate the fact that a large portion of the population is running
on autopilot, but as I pointed out concerning Holloman, that doesn't mean
they couldn't be educated.


>                   If they've spent even 1/10 of the time I have,
>                   it should be goddamn SELF EVIDENT by now.

Certainly, had they understood that to which they were exposed.  Part of
that educational process I was talking about, before, involves helping
them to understand the problems, even helping to understand that there ARE
problems...it's all part of the same struggle, Harry.

>                   They're programmed.  They're not going to 
>                   change.  

Not without help, they aren't.


>                    I've quite enough history, thank you.
>                    It's not particularly salable.

shame on you Harry!  studying history isn't about salability - it's about
survival.  I thought survival was your penultimate concern.....

>
>: it will need to find other prey.  What will you do then, Harry?  What
will
>: YOU do then?
>
>
>                   Oh, come on.  The longer Sam squeezes, the
>                   more militia types are going to pop up.  Sam
>                   has his hands full now.  I hardly doubt that
>                   Sam will exhaust his potential enemies during
>                   the time frame I need.

To run away again?  Sam is not the Beast itself, merely it's current
incarnation.  You've run from the Beast before, Harry, you've said as much
yourself.  It wasn't Sam last time, was it?  Yet it was still the Beast. 
It wont be Sam next time, but it will still be the Beast.  It feeds on
fear Harry, the more people flee, the more it follows them.  The *only*
thing which hold it at bay, is when people turn and fight.  Not everyone
wins Harry, and not all the time, but fighting is really our only
chance...and although it may indeed be cliche', I, at least, would still
rather die on my feet than live on my knees.  What about you, Harry?  What
about you?

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Wed May 29 14:03:24 PDT 1996
Article: 20289 of misc.activism.militia
Sender: news@newsbf02.news.aol.com
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 6:33:05 GMT
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Subject: Re: Hill wants state control of internet
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In article <833336291$24975@atype.com>, pgissource@aol.com (PGISSource)
writes:

>In article <833256207$18705@atype.com>, ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ) writes:
>
>>cheez Eric, you expect him to take *responsibility* for his actions??? 
>>but he's a liberal....
>
>Humph, Arlin.
>
>Geez, _some_ of us liberals take responsibility. Besides, is he really a
>liberal? Or just a profiteer trying to cash in on a hysteria?

Okay, Wiz, I stand corrected, *some* liberals DO take responsibility for
their actions, tim just isn't one of them.  as for a profiteer, I don't
know that much about him - don't tell me HE's playing "expert" too now! 
Yeesh!

Arlin


From ahabiz@aol.com Wed May 29 14:03:25 PDT 1996
Article: 20296 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 5:03:05 GMT
Message-ID: <833346185$25744@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Gov't 101 - Lesson 1 (Was Re: Get used to it...)
Lines: 187


Michael,

I received this initially as email, therefore I am responding via email. 
If
the same post also later shows up on the newsgroup, I will post an
identical
copy of this response there, as well.

In a message dated 96-05-27 03:51:09 EDT, you write:
>On Sun, 26 May 96 19:33:03 GMT, ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ) wrote:
>>In article <833005091$8356@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
>>Hollomon, Jr.) writes:

>>ah, so tell me Michael, if the point comes where you find that reason no
>>longer prevails, what will you do then?  What do you see as your
options,
>>should the government's actions overstep *your* tolerance limits?
>
>Gee, Arlin, you *really* don't get it, do you?  Well let me try to
>explain it to you, one step at a time.  In the U.S. our form of
>government is a "democracy."  

Incorrect assumption:  The United States is actually a democratic
republic,
or a representative democracy, depending on which term you prefer, or at
least it was originally designed as such.  A true democracy = 1
person/vote
on all issues.  This has never occurred in this country.


>Well what is a democracy, you ask?
>
>1a: Government by the people; esp : rule of the majority 

does not currently exist. In case you didn't notice, Michael, only
something
like 29% of the electorate voted in the last election.  Even more
importantly, the elected officials at the federal level actually make up
less
than 10 percent of the total government.  The other 90% consists primarily
of
lifer bureaucrats, with a thin frosting of political appointees.  
Majority
rule is a myth.

>1b: A government in which the supreme power is vested in the people
>    and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of
>    representation usu. involving periodically held free elections 

which only functions so long as:
a.  The majority of citizens actually deign to participate.
b.  The elected officials' actual authority and effectiveness  outweighs
the
authority and effectiveness of the bureaucracies through which they are
forced to function.
and 
c.  The elections are truly free, in the sense that the electoral process
has
not been compromised by various power brokers and special interests in the
society.
None of those conditions currently exist either.

>2:  A political unit that has a democratic government cap 

uh, Michael, the People's Republic of China could claim that their
'political
unit' has a democratic government cap, as well.  That really doesn't make
it
a democracy.

>3:  The principles and policies of the Democratic party in the U.S. 

LOL!  well, it's nice to meet an honest partisan.  Not a valid element to
the
democratic process from a Libertarian perspective Michael, sorry, no sale.

>4:  The common people esp. when constituting the source of political
>    authority 

ah, so big business, big labor, and the various other special interests
don't
have *any* influence on the political system, eh?  LOL again!  you
wouldn't
happen to work for the DNC by any chance, would you?  Michael the entire
system has been designed to minimize the input of the common people for at
least the last hundred years!  Your item #4. certainly doesn't describe
anything like the present system.  no sale.

>5:  The absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or
>    privileges.

Tell you what, Michael, you come out here to DC some time and I'll
introduce
you to some FOURTH and FIFTH GENERATION welfare families - you can lecture
them about the lack of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions in
American
society, okay?  no sale with major points off for lack of reality on your
part.

>
>In short, a democracy, especially as practiced in the U.S., is a
>system of government in which the majority rules.  

Already proven such a system does not exist in this country.  See above.

Now that we've proven that, here's a little question for you:

If people become aware that their government is no longer responsive to
their
needs, ignores all attempts at reform, and in fact is acting in a fashion
which directly inhibits their natural rights, seemingly moving to
increasing
levels of totalitarianism on a yearly basis should they:

a.  sit around and pretend that voting alone will make it better?

b.  bend over and stick their head in the sand, so that when the
government
does it to them they at least wont see it coming.

or 

c.  take whatever steps by whatever means they deem neccessary to secure
their rights, and their liberties.

If you answered a. or b. then I'm sure that you will have no problem
finding
a job with the current regime.

If you answered c.  welcome to the resistance


>Well it certainly is a relief to see that you are not as stubborn in
>your prejudgments as are some of your cohorts.  Now, if you would care
>to enlighten me as to those matters of which you believe me to be
>"misinformed," I would be happy to *prove* you wrong in very short
>order.

I just have, and you just haven't.



>Yeah well, I'm sure that the Oklahoma City bomber, no doubt an
>adherent of some of your miltist philosophies, would say that he was
>just taking *defensive* action against the onslaught of the evil
>empire (aka US Govt).  After all, there's no defense like a good
>offense, eh?

uh, no Michael, that's in football.  This is real life.  It's important to
try to remember the difference:  Football is a spectator sport, real life
is
NOT.  In real life the OKC bombers committed an atrocity, nothing more or
less.  That was not a defensive reaction, and it most certainly was not
carried out by members of the local community.  It was therefore, by
definition, NOT a militia action.  


>If you were in fact merely becoming a *political* force, I would be
>happy for you (and would probably spend a lot less time in this
>newsgroup).  The fact that you are readily willing to die for your
>cause gives me no cause for concern either.  It is the fact that you
>are even more willing to *kill* your fellow countrymen for that cause
>which causes me some concern.

LOL! so if we don't take all possible effective actions, or we allow
ourselves to be slaughtered, you think that's just fine, but if we stand
up
in self-defense (a concept that, I guess, seems beyond you) you are
frightened.  Decidedly no sale there, Michael, what you are recommending
is
the coward's way out.  Tell me Michael, do you see yourself as capable of
using lethal force in your own defense, under ANY circumstances?  Somehow
I
doubt it....

Sorry, Michael, but you haven't yet dispelled my belief that you are
basing
your views on naive, overly idealistic, (and generally wrong) assumptions.
It's very clear to me that, to borrow a phrase, "you really don't get it,
do
you?"

Arlin H. Adams

"I have sworn upon the altar of Almighty God, Eternal enmity toward every
form of tyranny over the mind of man."  - Thomas Jefferson


From ahabiz@aol.com Wed May 29 14:03:26 PDT 1996
Article: 20297 of misc.activism.militia
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 28 May 96 17:33:08 GMT
Message-ID: <833304788$22031@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? -->>
Lines: 17


In article <833293085$21296@atype.com>, jhistorian@aol.com (JHistorian)
writes:

>* * * *
>    Dewey was the quintessential pragmatist.  It would be quite a stretch
>-- although you seem to have no problems with such leaps of logic -- to
>say that coincides with being a "proto-fascist."
>    I suspect that you, too, need to re-read Dewey's writings.

Any time a person espouses a philosophy which disregards individual rights
in the search for 'pragmatic' solutions to the problems of industry, they
directly parallel the philosophy of the Itallian fascists during the
1930's & 40's...perhaps you've read the old saw about how they were going
to "make the trains run on time"...that was one of their primary goals -
the efficiency of industry...at all costs...sorry Jim, but I still think
Dewey was a proto-fascist. 


From ahabiz@aol.com Wed May 29 19:46:02 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 14:02:50 GMT
Message-ID: <833378570$27797@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? -->>
Lines: 257



In article <833156298$13419@atype.com>, jdulaney@nntp1.best.com (John
Dulaney) writes:

>AHABIZ (ahabiz@aol.com) wrote:
>
>: In article <833077114$10277@atype.com>, jdulaney@nntp1.best.com (John
>: Dulaney) writes:
>
>
>: No, John, I speak from personal experience.
>
>	And yet I have read "your" text countless times in the various
>educational newsgroups, but they come from union teachers, NEA people.

No John, you have not.  you may *think* you have, in that you understand
so very little of what we are discussing that it may in fact all appear to
be the same to you, but you have seen nothing from union hacks like my
critique of goals 2000, or my critiques of OBE which have appeared in this
very newsgroup in the last year.

Look, I realize that you feel threatened by the fact that I directly
contradict your antisemitic propaganda.  Of course you *could* simply
admit that you were wrong, that you really don't know what you're talking
about, but that solution doesn't assuage your ego sufficiently.  Thus you
try to convince yourself that I am somehow a member of some superduper
conspiracy model, one that, by the way, was stolen directly from the
nazidiots, who in turn, stole it from the antisemitic morons who wrote
'the protocols of the elders of zion' who in THIER TURN stole it from
medeaval sources.  If you would only study a little history you would see
you've fallen for the same propaganda that's been used for over 700 years,
it was false then, and it's false now.

	You are a ringer, friend.
>	A Quiseling. 
>	A phoney "militia-member" sent here to disarm and disinform the
>public.
>	The war you fight is against truth, against life, against freedom
>and our Constitution.
>	You are no Libertarian. You are an Extremist-Leftist fraud.

I stand on my record.  What I have written is readily available in the
DejaNews index.  If you are so confused that, following your reading of my
accumulated postings, you *still* cannot tell what a Libertarian believes,
then I suggest you contact the Libertarian Party for further instruction. 
In the meantime, you discredit only yourself by accusing me of things
which are so obviously false that your lies are readily apparent to all.

>	And yet...isn't it odd that you defend the NEA programs which have
>and are destroying our nation.

You haven't been paying attention again, John.  I have been a consistent
critic of the Goals 2000 program since it's inception.  Also, I have on
several occaisions IN THIS VERY NEWSGROUP spoken to the perversion of the
performance based origins of OBE by the leftist leadership of the NEA. 
Anyone who has been reading this newsgroup for more than a couple of
months knows this...at least anyone who has been paying
attention...obviously John, YOU are not among that number.


>: I'm also a Libertarian, and a militia member, to claim that I am 'part
of
>: the system' is not only absurd, but irrational. 
>
>	And while you claim the above your words reflect strict Leftist
>agit-prop, disinformation and at the same time you mount it all on the
>usual well-rehearsed phoney moral plane.

John you have yet to do anything other than call me names.  Show me one
factual piece of evidence which supports your perverse notion that I am
not a Libertarian...just one John...one little fact...or admit that the
reason you insist on calling me names is because you HAVE no factual
evidence.  You have no explanation for the discontinuities, half-truths
and outright lies which your antisemitic propaganda contains and which I
consistently point out in front of the world.  You have no explanation for
any of  these things other than to call anyone who disagrees with you a
'leftist' .  Wrong answer John.  I have given you facts.  I have corrected
your half truths, your lies, your discontinuities...and I will continue to
do so EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU POST THEM IN THIS FORUM.

Face it John, this is not where you belong.  You need to be over with your
fellow antisemites in one of the 'white power' forums...you know, with all
the other little nazidiots.  Antisemitism, and EVERY OTHER FORM OF RACIAL
DISCRIMINATION is in direct opposition to the underlying principles of the
Declaration of Independence, The Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.  No
exceptions, No excuses.  As long as you continue to espouse your
antisemitic nonsense, then you most assuredly cannot claim to be
supporting the ideals of the founding fathers; even to attempt such a
thing marks you as a complete hypocrit.
  
>	If facts fail you, if logic fails you, if the law fails you then
>attack the messenger and beg for sympathy as handicapped.

John I've repeatedly pointed out the factual inconsistencies, and logical
fallicies of your arguments.  None of my assertions have ever been
contradicted by you - you haven't even attempted to answer them.  All you
do is call me names, and impugn my motives...and you say *I* haven't stuck
to the facts???  sheesh!  IF you had posessed a fact to your name, you
could have at least attempted a rebuttal, but you never have.  Why is
that, John?  Could it be because you really don't understand what we're
attempting to discuss, and thus have to resort to name calling?  That
certainly *seems* to be the case.


>  I dare say that not only have I been
>: fighting for truth a lot longer than you have,
>
>	You dare?
>	I've fought Communists since 1969 in Italy with my fists and the
>flesh off my skull.

Who won?  More to the point, in your world travels, how did you manage to
avoid learning that convincing someone of intelligence requires logical
persuasion, based on factual evidence?  Neither of which have been
provided by you.

>  There are two things you should NEVER call a
>: libertarian, without hard evidence to support them - Never accuse a
>: libertarian of cheating, and never, ever, accuse a libertarian of
lying. 
>
>	I accuse you of lying.
>	What pomposity!
>	ROTFL!	
>	Are you 12 years old?

No, I am a man of honor, a thing of which you appear to have little
understanding.


>: Because we do not function under 'implied' or 'inherited' contracts,
>
>	We?
>	You believe to call yourself a Libertarian means you are enrolled
>in the Justice League of America?

No, that wasn't the 'royal we' John, when I shifted to the plural it was
intended to indicate that I was speaking of libertarians generally - in
other words, providing the libertarian philosophical background neccessary
for you to understand my reactions.  Sorry, next time I'll be more direct.


>: social or otherwise, the only contracts we abide by are those on which
we
>: give our word.  Our word is our bond.  My word is my bond.
>
>	Are you 9 years old?

You really do know nothing of honor, do you?


>  You have
>: falsly impugned my word, and in doing so you have falsly impugned my
>: honor.  I shall remember that.
>
>	Not if you went to public school.
>	But if you can try (510) 673-0101

John I have no reason to call your phone number.  You seem to mistake
argument with debate.  You argue, I debate.  I have no wish to argue with
you verbally - I'm doing just fine here.  I will simply bide my time,
criticizing your posts, and making sure the world sees them for the
foolishness they truly are.  But should you ever require assistance, be
assured that I shall not be there for you, and I shall insure that anyone
who asks me about you knows exactly what sort of person you are.


>: Actually, John, none of  the texts I used were from the NEA,
>
>	Actually I've read it, always paraphrased as ordered, not less
>than 30 times since Jan. '96.

No John, you didn't, you simply don't know enough about the topic to
understand what you read.


>: well, no, I'm not 'stuck' as the one thing I wont diverge from is the
>: truth. 
>
>	The brainwashed believe that lying for the cause of
>Totalitarianism is moral.
>	In the cases in which you lie, like Clinton, you actually do
>believe it's the truth.

John, I'm the one who has consistently shown the factual and logical
inaccuracies in YOUR posts.  You have rebutted NONE of my critique, but
have consistently called me names and accused me of lying.  That's ALL
you've done.  You are the one who has repeatedly demonstrated that you
have no real evidence in support of your beliefs, and yet you still seem
to cling to them...and you call *me* brainwashed??  John that isn't even
rational.


> Guess my little addendum about lack of parental discipline really
>: struck a nerve, eh? 
>
>	Is that your debating point? Striking nerves in messengers that
>expose the truth to the world?
>	I don't recall reading that "addendum" anyway.

see I TOLD you that you didn't understand what you were reading!  sheesh!


>	
> Funny thing, though, I got several email messages
>: from fellow militia members who had noted the same lack of discipline
and,
>: in fact attributed it to the same source.  Funny how that worked out,
>: don't you think?  or do you now believe that your vaunted super-duper
>: conspiracy is playing mind control games on militia members?  If that's
>: the case, then how can you be certain they also aren't playing mind
>: control games on you?  
>
>	You have all the evidence that a world-wide conspiracy exists and
>yet you deny it.

John, I've consistently shown the gaping, semi-truck sized holes in your
so-called world wide conspiracy, and you haven't plugged any of those
holes yet.  I catagorically state here and now that your antisemitic
broadsides prove nothing other than the bigotry of their author.

>	You claim to be a Libertarian and militia member and this type of
>person would never disregard the possibility of a conspiracy and yet you
>do.

I do not disregard possible collusion by various power mongering elements
both within, and outside of, our government.  What I do repudiate is your
irrational racist propaganda.


>	Not only do you deny it you actively act as an eager agent to
>ridicule such a possibility.

NO, John, I'm just ridiculing the irrational nonsense you've been posting.

>          Who are you fooling, friend?
>	Not me.

LOL!  John, I could not possibly make a bigger fool out of you than you've
already made of yourself.

Arlin H. Adams
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Date: Mon, 27 May 96 4:33:48 GMT
Message-id: <833171628$14743@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? -->>


From ahabiz@aol.com Wed May 29 19:46:03 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 14:03:31 GMT
Message-ID: <833378611$27833@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? -->>
Lines: 29



In article <833156312$13435@atype.com>, jdulaney@nntp1.best.com (John
Dulaney) writes:

>: The answer to this question is, of course that there are a number of
>: factors which have effected literacy rates.  These include such things
as
>
>	The rest unread.
>	Thanks for repeating the NEA's response.
>	By your own black lies you defeat yourself.


thanks for admitting you read no one's posts but your own.
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Subject: Re: Jewish Conspiracy Proof? -->>


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu May 30 11:00:35 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 15:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <833384884$28455@atype.com>
Subject: Re: A Call for Militiaman Assembly
Lines: 23


In article <833348018$25853@atype.com>, thor@rest.is.net (ronnie smith)
writes:

Uh Ron, little problem here:

Your first premise:

>EVERY free individual has States rights just as if they were a state
>themselves.

directly contradicts your second premise:

>in georgia, blacks have yet to receive States rights see the public
>record of petition for redress of greivances by Gregory Karl Davis
>in the courthouse records

There was the late unpleasantness, you may have heard about?  The upshot
of it was that all people born in this country, or naturalized as citizens
are free, regardless of race.

Just thought you'd want to know
Arlin H. Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 29 May 96 14:33:05 GMT
Message-ID: <833380385$27918@atype.com>
Subject: Re: guilty ,guilty, guilty
Lines: 23


In article <833367784$26308@atype.com>, reillyjm@aol.com (ReillyJM)
writes:

>You mean Gingrich is guilty of crimes against the public for trying to
>defund the enforcement of environmental, work place, and food safety
laws?

LOL!  J.M.  get a grip!  just because Newt expects you to act like a grown
up and take responsibility for your own health and well being, doesn't
mean he's doing anything wrong...in fact it proves to most of us that he's
doing something right.


>Thank God Clinton was there to stop those House Republicans who are in
the
>pockets of polluters and international money. Gingrich is guilty as sin! 

keep moaning, Clinton's going to jail, and not just for land swindling and
embezzlement, either...I can hardly wait to see the spin they try to pull
of to keep the Mina drug deals covered up now....

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu May 30 11:00:37 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 4:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <833431683$1029@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Democracy vrs Freedom
Lines: 32


In article <833381306$28049@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>No, clearly it is you who missed the point.  I never said that there were
no 
>military weapons available for private ownership.  I said that they were
in 
>very short supply.
>
>

actually mark, what you said was that *firearms* were in short supply.  It
was I who pointed out that while this was true for military weapons, due
to production limitations in the interior of the country, personal
firearms were quite common.  I also pointed out that personal firearms,
while used by militia units in the early part of the Revolutionary War,
were phased out after the French began actively supplying military
muskets.

In point of fact, the military muskets used by both sides in the
Revolution were smoothbores - their effective *accurate* range against a
man sized target was only about 75 yards.  While this was this was
certainly comparable to the smoothbores carried by some of the poorer
militia members, the rifles carried by others far out classed them.  In
point of fact up until just before the Civil War, civilian firearms
available  to anyone generally outclassed their military counterparts. 
Even in the post-war years, with the expansion into the west, the military
was still issuing muzzle loaders, and then single shot Springfields, while
the civilians often carried Winchesters, Remingtons, and Henrys, some of
which were capable of sustained fire at three to five times the rate of
their military cousins.


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Subject: Re: guilty ,guilty, guilty
Lines: 9


In article <833396325$29273@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Clinton's testimony was highly
>credible; they just didn't feel it was relevant

hmm, just like everything else billy jeff says...sounds real good until
you actually stop and think about it...


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu May 30 11:00:38 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 8:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <833446083$1807@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Public Apology to the Constitutional Militia Movement
Lines: 32


Hi Mike,

In article <833400207$29740@atype.com>, mhollomo@ix.netcom.com (Michael
Hollomon, Jr.) writes:
> I have
>become convinced that equality for all Americans, regardless of race
>or sex, is among the agendas of many of those within the patriot
>movement. 

Well obviously nobody can speak for the whole movement, but as for my
associates and myself, your gracious apology is graciously accepted.

> There are views expressed by those within the patriot
>movement which I vigorously and vociferously oppose,

yeah, I think we're pretty clear on that too, trust me! :-)
More seriously, though, one of the many reasons this newsgroup is so
valuable, is that it allows us to state, and debate, our beliefs before
the world.  I know that's not always easy to see (our signal to noise
ratio can vary tremendously) but blocked as we are from the mainstream
media, this little newsgroup still gives us some chance to make our voices
to be heard.  

I don't think we expect the entire world to suddenly agree with us, heck
we don't always agree with each other.  You are certainly welcome to
express your considered opinions, and debate ours with us (even as we will
debate yours with you).  Perhaps we will convince you, perhaps not, but if
we didn't at least allow this opportunity to exist, we'd never even have
the chance to try! 

Arlin Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu May 30 14:15:37 PDT 1996
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Date: Thu, 30 May 96 17:03:06 GMT
Message-ID: <833475786$2821@atype.com>
Subject: Re: "Worst Nightmare"
Lines: 12


In article <833463185$2261@atype.com>, mo10cav@aol.com (Mo10Cav) writes:

>Do that one more time and
>we're gonna ground you on Pitcavage's Web Page, mister.

Ack!  wait a minute! doesn't that qualify as cruel and unusual?? 
hey...now are we talking *before* or *after* the proposed artillery fire
mission?????

Arlin
[who is thinking maybe he shouldn't have asked...]


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu May 30 14:15:38 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 17:03:14 GMT
Message-ID: <833475794$2837@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Gov't 101 - Lesson 1 (Was Re: Get used to it...)
Lines: 33


In article <833439784$1333@atype.com>, thor@rest.is.net (ronnie smith)
writes:

>
>All the courtrooms in America are flying ILLEGAL flags
>title 36 USC
>distinctly says that you cannot decorate the American flag
>so the GOLD FRINGE is Illegal
>and therefore every Judge in America is a Traitor

Hi again Ronnie,

Couple of points here:

1.  Treason is defined by the Constitution as either taking up arms
against the United States, or giving aid and comfort to the enemy.  Those
are the ONLY two things which constitute treason in this country. 
Redecorating the national flag is illegal, but treason it ain't.

2.  In point of fact, I believe if you check thoroughly that, while
national flags are not supposed to have fringe, there are historical
examples of exceptions to this in the case of the military, going back at
least as far as the Civil War.  Since almost no one (including judges)
knows all of the laws concerning display of flags, banners, and ensigns
I'd imagine most folks just think it's 'pretty'.  

All that being said, I believe that the gold fringe *does* make it a
military banner, which of course raises the question as to why one might
find it in a civilian courtroom...the federal court system is buying Army
surplus now??  I dunno...

Arlin Adams


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Date: Thu, 30 May 96 5:18:04 GMT
Message-ID: <833433484$1117@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Jesus and Militias
Lines: 15


In article <833377693$27631@atype.com>, stjohn@interpac.net writes:

> Sorry Jim, but we are the only gods there are. Humans have the only
wisdom
>extant. 


now THERE is a statement of blind faith, if ever I heard one...personally
I don't agree with it, but to hold the fact that we are the only and
greatest of all thinking beings in the universe takes an absolutely
breath-taking leap beyond logic.  how interesting it should come from an
athiest....

Arlin H. Adams


From ahabiz@aol.com Fri May 31 09:00:35 PDT 1996
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 5:18:19 GMT
Message-ID: <833433499$1133@atype.com>
Subject: Re: exposing the myths.Dulaney rebutted
Lines: 106


In article <833377436$27556@atype.com>, jdulaney@nntp1.best.com (John
Dulaney) writes:

>
>1) Are you so confused you haven't got a clue as to who the real enemy
is?

nope, same enemies that freedom has always had - statists and racists.



>2) Did you know high level Russians have long ago admitted that without
>   decades of continuous U.S. financial aid the Soviet Union would have
>   collapsed in 18 months?


ayep, it's called "Feeding the Hungry", John; and the Guy who told us to
do that, wasn't real concerned about where those hungry folks might be
living.


>3) Have you ever wondered why the U.S.A. has always favored and financed
>   the harshest Communist countries (such as China) and turned it's back
>   on Democracies and free nations (such as Taiwan).


Hmm, well, I've always considered Britain and France a bit on the
socialist side, but I wouldn't actually have called either of them 'harsh'
until this last British anti-terrorism law went through.  Germany, nope,
might be a whole bunch of other things, but I'm pretty sure 'communist'
isn't among them.  Australia, heh, I'd love to see what happens the next
time you call an Aussie a communist, really I would!  Could it be that, in
the case of the PRC, the state department weenies are just a might afraid
of a country with over a *billion* people in it?  Could it also be that
Taiwan, up until it started to realize that we just might NOT step in and
save their bacon, was about as democratic as Japan, which is to say,
hardly at all?  Oh and hey!  how about those Japanese communists!  Man,
they're something else, aren't they?


>4) Has it occurred to you that as soon as any "conservative" politician
>   reaches Washington D.C. they suddenly forget their own beliefs and
>   begin to rob us of our freedom and money just as fast as, or faster
>   than, the Liberals?

It's the water...er...no...it's...the air...er...no..I forget...:-)


>5) Have you ever added up the enormous number of factors in life today
>   that do not make sense? Have you ever sat down and tried to make a
list
>   of those areas that DO make common sense?

hmm, well let's see, there's the light in the refrigerator...always
wondered if it was on when the door was closed...then there's my thermos -
it keeps cold things cold, and hot things hot, but how does it know when
to do which???  And speaking of hot and cold, if my room airconditioner
blows cold air, which it does, why is the back side of it hot all the
time????  y'know, some of this stuff really doesn't add up.


>6) Short of violence what is the best way to change the direction of the
>   world today?

well, the '94 election was a good start...all that danged grassroots
activism started to pay off.  Given the time, and the fact that we're
still armed, we'll pull this thing off yet, one way or the other...

>7) Today, thanks to talk-radio and the Internet, you might guess what
>   single organization is most feared by the media, the Democrats, the
>   Liberals, the Communists, the Totalitarians and even the Republicans? 

I'd have to say either the Libertarian Party [we're the fastest growing
minority party in the US!], or COYOTE -the hookers union [but that's only
>from  what I've noticed driving through downtown DC after dark.


>8) Why have the Greens, Save-the-Earthers and other ecology-minded
>   organizations recently turned against the One World Government
>   Totalitarians and begun to embrace Pat Buchanan?

look man, all those years of doing illegal drugs *had* to take a toll
eventually...


>9) Are you aware that there is a single (not religious or political)
>   informational organization that has long ago been exposing the truth
>   as best it can but has been the target of the most intensive smear
>   campaign ever mounted by the controlled media and politicians?

oh, you must mean US - the militias!  of course!

>10) Did you know that you can end your confusion by reading history right
>    here in the Internet, for free? All facts are 100% verifiable.

yep all three of them.

>    The conclusion is inevitable.

I recommend keeping a paper bag handy for the equally inevitable nausea
and disgust, when you discover the depth of the racism and the incoherence
of the material presented there...oh well, I guess even Norm Olson has to
have *somebody* he can call weird...

Arlin Adams


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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Thu, 30 May 96 4:19:09 GMT
Message-ID: <833429949$972@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Encouragement for the militia...
Lines: 7


In article <833381298$28033@atype.com>, mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu
(Mark T Pitcavage) writes:

>Don't hold your breath.

oh, we aren't, mark, generally we don't have time...

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