The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/a/abels.nele/1996/abels.1296


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Dec  6 04:16:06 PST 1996
Article: 84041 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels-Ludwig)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Good Old Days,1.
Date: Tue, 03 Dec 96 02:08:24 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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PJO@is.back (Leprechan) wrote:
>	Rather the same standards appear to be applied to all parties.
>Singular documents that are not part of accepted business patterns are
>just that, singular documents.  For example the Wannsee document.  It
>lacks any evidence that it was ever implemented in any manner.  As
>such it remains without meaningful content.

Sigh. You can wish as hard as you like that historical documents cannot be
contextualised, Giwer, they can... And what the hell do you mean with
"accepted business patterns"? Nothing particular probably...

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Dec  6 17:44:03 PST 1996
Article: 84112 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels-Ludwig)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Dr. Becker Implements National Socialism
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 14:09:37 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
[...]
>The so-called gas vans are really one of the most unbelievable
>aspects of the Holocaust.
[...]
>It ought to
>be noted that the German army had a number of gas vans attached
>to particular combat sectors, which were used for delousing clothing
>and field equipment in an area where typhus ran rampant since the
>time of Napoleon.  Perhaps the Soviets captured one or two of these
>vans in damaged condition and then simply allowed their creative
>imaginations to run wild.

This is getting rather annyoing.

One has to chose whether "rblackmore" does not know the letter from Just
to Rauff and lets his imagination run wild, or whether he does know this important
source and tells the untruth about its contents...
The Rauff-letter is the most important source for the question of the gas vans. It
is a report to an SS department leader which deals with technical improvements
to be done with the gas-vans.
If the "freight" of those vans really would have been "clothing and field equipment",
then the report would make one wonder about its marvellour behaviour:
It is afraid of light, presses to the back doors, dies in half an hour and looses bodily
fluids when dying, and is bi-pedal by the way.
Of course there is no doubt that the letter is dealing with the killings of people, human
beings. I agree that the cruelty and cynicism of the letter is unbelievable. But even
more unbelievable is the cruelty and cynicism with which "rblackmore" spits on
the dignity and memory of the victims of his idiolized Nazi heroes.

No, I do not have the url to this letter at my hand. I know that there is a translation, I
recommend the search facility.

Nele

[posted and emailed]


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Dec  7 09:53:57 PST 1996
Article: 84194 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels-Ludwig)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Good Old Days,1.
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 22:41:19 GMT
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The coward Giwer hiding behind "Delorean@cobble.frie (Trunksated)" wrote:

>	Read it again.  Of course documents CAN BE contextualized.  I am
>pointing out that singular documents such as the Wannsee document,
>having no context, can not be contextualized.

Thank you for pointing out that you do not understand the meaning of "context"
in historiography. But to be fair, this is really not in the curriculum of a BS. Yet, that
leaves us to wonder why Giwer ALWAYS insists on talking about things he knows
nothing about...

>	In the Wannsee case, normal business practices would be
>implementing (written) orders for the document.  It would include
>implementation documents in compliance with those implementing orders.

Sigh. Of course these written orders exist. We have quite a lot of documents about
the transports to the East (Auschwitz etc.) and an abundant mass of names-lists.
The Nazis tried to destroy them, but luckily they were a too bureaucratic bunch to
get rid of the huge piles of paper they had produced earlier. (Luckily for us...)

>It would include documents supporting the implementation such as the
>acquisition of sterilizing equipment, assignment of personnel to sterilization process,

Ah come on, as if the Wannsee document were about sterilzing. It was about killing,
and we have all the documents describing the fitting out of concentration camps, and
this includes phenol for the "totspritzen" and cyclon B. There you have your
"link of businness" right into your face.

>a procedure for screening the ancestory of the people to determine who is and is not
>to be sterilized, that sort of thing.

You are a fool. You have this "procedure" right in the application of the Nuremberg laws.

>	And of course no such things have ever been found.

Seems you are uninformed (as usual) and have lost it completely (as usual)

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Dec  7 09:53:58 PST 1996
Article: 84241 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels-Ludwig)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Good Old Days,1.
Date: Fri, 06 Dec 96 22:32:09 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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tutu101@aol.com wrote:
>Actually, it is the task of a prosecutor to prove their allegations.  The
>authors of the book used this material to bolster a mass murder claim, so
>the burden of proof is on them.

Well, here we are talking about history and not about jurisdiction. But your
metaphor can be applied nethertheless.
The "revisionists" claim that the letter is worthless, so they are the "prosecutors"
against the established view on this particular source, and therefore have to
"bolster up their allegations".

But as usual they don't, the just deny, as they usually do, out of the thin air...

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Dec  7 09:54:00 PST 1996
Article: 84262 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels-Ludwig 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Good Old Days,1.
Date: 7 Dec 1996 13:55:47 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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tutu101@aol.com wrote:
>I must correct you.  It is the duty of a prosecutor to prove 
>the accusations against the accused.  You have things backward. 
>Someone has submitted these accusations as evidence.  If I was >the judge, I'd throw it out of court.

Looks like you got me wrong. I was talking about a completely 
different thing. (Apart from that I don't really care whether
a nobody who is too afraid to use his real name and who cannot
even master the "reply"-button of his newsreader would throw
anything out of court or not). 

Here is my point again, in four simple steps so that you 
can understand it:

1. reasonable people claim that "Good old Days" is a collection
of sources usable as evidence that the Holocaust took place.
Nobody apart from the minor extremist fringe mentioned in point
2 doubts that.

2. the bunch of nut-brains who call themselves "revisionists"
claim that these sources are useless. In your metaphor it's
them who make the accusation.

3. therefore THEY are in the role of the "prosecutor" and have
to prove why the source should be useless. It's not the task
of the authors of the book to do so, since their point is 
commonly assumed to be correct.

4. As usual, the "revisionists" fail to do so and stick to their
old "I deny everything, no matter what comes" - routine.

Yawn...


Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Dec 14 07:54:07 PST 1996
Article: 85503 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels-Ludwig)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Clearing the air about Posen
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 96 19:31:28 GMT
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minesweeper@navy.water (Force) wrote:
[...]
>>Because that is the purpose of the newsgroup.  Mr. Giwer doesn't like that,
>>because it leads to debate, but life's tough sometimes.

>	That is what soc.jewish.holocaust is for.  This is for revisionism.
>It is certainly not for spamming by holobuggers.

I have asked you several times, and I will ask you yet another time, expecting
a serious answer:

WHAT IN YOUR OPINION IS REVISIONISM? WHAT KIND OF EXCHANGE DO
YOU LIKE TO HAVE IN THIS NEWSGROUP?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Dec 14 12:34:30 PST 1996
Article: 85649 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels-Ludwig 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What IS "revisionism"? (was Re: Clearing the air about Posen)
Date: 14 Dec 1996 14:36:12 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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minesweeper@navy.water (Force) wrote:
[I asked]
>>WHAT IN YOUR OPINION IS REVISIONISM? WHAT KIND OF EXCHANGE DO
>>YOU LIKE TO HAVE IN THIS NEWSGROUP?

>You keep asking something that does not matter.  My opinion of 
>it is that I participate in it.  The exchange, regardless of my 
>likes and dislikes, should clearly be of revisionsm.  

As far as I know, you are the only one in the "revisionist"
camp who claims that the posts of your opponents do not
concern "revisionism". Since I am a bit puzzled about that, I
am asking you for your personal opinion about what "revisionism"
is. Therefore your likes and dislikes are definetly of interest
here. To be more clear: I really try to UNDERSTAND what you
want.

>Just give up the sophistry.  

Don't be paranoid. You wouldn't even notice if I really 
were to lead you down the garden path.

>Stop the antics in trying to justify what you know is
>deliberate disruption of the conference.  

Perhaps I have made clear this time that I am not trying to
"justify" or to "disrupt", but that I am asking you a
serious question.

Still waiting for an answer

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Dec 18 08:18:03 PST 1996
Article: 86367 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels-Ludwig)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Of Course Blackmore Doesn't call folks names
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 01:31:09 GMT
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destroyer@navy.water (Arleigh Burke) wrote:
[...]
>	How about a physical address and phone number so people can verify
>if there is a real mike curtis and that you are him?

And this from the biggest coward of all, who is too afraid to post under his own
name although all world recognises him because he would be too embarrassed
to admit that he has been kicked of yet another provider.

What a loser.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Dec 18 08:18:06 PST 1996
Article: 86470 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels-Ludwig)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust: US Students React
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 96 21:12:02 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>	My second question would be to inquire if any of the students are
>aware that many things that were once claimed about this Holocaust are
>now recognized as being untrue?

Interestingly enough, not the things you normally lie about. Some details have
changed, research slowly manages to establish a sure estimate of the victims.
Yet, neither the gassings, nor the extermination plans, nor the mass-shootings,
nor anything the neo-fascist fringe who flatter themselves in believing they
are "revisionists" deny.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Dec 19 07:46:37 PST 1996
Article: 86729 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels-Ludwig 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer loses it yet another time (Re: The Good Old Days,1.)
Date: 18 Dec 1996 08:11:01 GMT
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[I wrote:]
>>Giwer, you are a fool. What is the Holocaust, if not a subject
>>of historiography.

[Giwer:]
>It is a matter of war propaganda that got out of hand and
>refused to die after the war. It is nothing more than that.

Mhm, what is the strange little man trying to say? Is the 
Holocaust a subject of historiography or not? Let's confront him 
with two phrases he writes below:

>"History, as usual, will tell lies." - GBS. Have times changed?
>and If history has taught us anything, it is that history will >be revised.

This allows two conclusions. Either Giwer really believes that 
the holocaust is not a historical subject at one moment and he 
believes firmly that it is a historical subject the other moment. 
This would make him somewhat schizophrenic. The second conclusion 
is that he is as usual lying just to avoid admitting that he is 
wrong and has to accept a different opinion. Well, he can chose 
for himself which conclusion suits him better, but there is no 
alternative.
Apart from that, even if he were right and the Holocaust were 
"war propaganda" which is of course false, this question would 
still be a subject of  historiography. This makes Giwer's remarks 
irrelevant in any case. But he knows that of course.

[I wrote:]
>>What is the Wannsee document if not a historical document. >>Nobody who knows what he is talking about needs a "pretention" >>[sic=
!] whatsoever to realise this...

[Giwer:]
>If you folks could find a second copy of it or any evidence that >anything in it were ever implemented we might have some idea >wha=
t it means. Other than that, it is something that appeared on >the scene several decades ago rather out of no where.

But why should we find "a second copy"? We don't need one. Let's 
apply the thing so alien to true "revisionists", let's apply 
plain logic. If the document is authentic then we know that there 
have been 30 copies and that the remaining document is no. 16. 
(Cp. _Enzyklop„die des Holocaust_, Bd. 3, S. 1519). If the 
document is a forgery that would be a surprise to all real 
experts out there, since Giwer is the only one claiming that. But 
if he makes that claim, fair enough, "he who makes the claim has 
to present the evidence." Thus he has the ball. Of course we all 
know that he will never even able to read the original, less so 
make any qualified remarks about its authenticity. Again his 
remarks are irrelevant. But he knows that of course... 
Concerning the context of the Wannsee-conference: Emil Aretz 
writes that this was a secret conference of the state secretaries 
in the Berlin-Wannsee to which they were invited by Heydrich and 
which were to coordinate and to optimise the work of all 
departments. This way, the order from G”ring to Himmler and 
Heydrich concerning the "Endl”sung" should be achieved. After the 
Wannsee conference (Aretz quotes Heinrich H„rtle) Heydrich 
established a talk with general governour Frank. The IMT witness 
Bhler declared later that Heydrich remarked, the Reichsfhrer SS 
were ordered by Hitler to proceed with with the "Endl”sung" and 
to collect all European Jews. [Emil Aretz: _Hexeneinmaleins einer 
Lge_, Hohe Warte, 1979, p. 155f]

So Giwer, here you have the preface and the aftermath of the 
Wannsee conference. WHAT ARE YOUR COMMENTS, you fool?

[I wrote:]
>>You are obviously not talking about historical evidence. So >>pray, what kind of "evidence" are you talking about? Evidence >>whic=
h shows that you are an ignorant, uneducated, and >>incompetent babbler?

[Giwer gives more of this evidence:]
>"History as usual, will tell lies" -- GBS
>Have times changed? I am not talking about the evidence that >matters, physical evidence, because there is none?

Huh? What does that mean? Naturally the Wannsee document is 
physical evidence, it is a material object which can be verified. 
Apart from that Giwer's witless quotation from Shaw shows that he 
is not more than a desperate, stupid little babbler.

>>>In which case, everything I said is correct.
>>Obviously you are right here :))
>I always am.

Totally devoid of irony too. What a pity that a sense for irony
is a sure indicator for a superior intellect, isn't it, old chap?

[Giwer:]
>It is not whether you win or lose but how you play the game. And >if played long enough, it keeps one off of the streets and out >o=
f trouble.

Whatever that means. The most probable interpretation is that for 
Giwer posting to this newsgroup is not a matter of serious 
discussion but some kind of "game-therapy" which helps him to 
endure his meaningless, desperate, and numb life.

Well, he HAS completely lost it.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Dec 20 15:40:23 PST 1996
Article: 87058 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels-Ludwig 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: True Revisionism and the "Brack Device"
Date: 20 Dec 1996 12:32:19 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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To: dkeren@world.std.com,mgiwer@gte.net

In September 1996 Matt Giwer wrote:
>   Ah, yes, the infamous Brack Device which no one has ever
>found even a description of. It is suspected by revisionists
>to refer to the polaxing iron plate operated by the foot tredle
>from the other side of the room. Others have considered it to
>be the infamous conveyor belt electrocution method.
>
>   However it has recently been determined that the Brack Device
>was an exploding picnic basket which unsuspecting Jews were
>given before being sent into the woods.

Of course "revisionists" have not tried anything to determine
a questionable term by scrutinizing the original documents. They
normally lack the required knowledge of language and methods. But
since I myself had never heard about the "Brack device" and had
my doubts about it, I took this criticism seriously and invested 
some work to dig up the original letter. "Revisionists" like 
Giwer, of course are only able to produce less than witty cynical 
remarks but will never lift their butts high enough to excel 
beyond plain lying.

The passage in question was originally quoted by Dr. Keren from 
the letter by Dr. Erhard Wetzel to Reichskommissar Lohse, October 
25, 1941 [Hitler and the Final Solution - G. Fleming, University 
of California Press, 1984, p. 70:

>>Given the present situation, Jews who are not fit for work
>>can be eliminated without qualms through the use of the Brack
>>device.

The original passage says:

   Nach Sachlage bestehen keine Bedenken, wenn diejenigen
   Juden, die nicht arbeitsfähig sind, mit den Brackschen
   Hilfsmitteln beseitigt werden.
   ---
   Nürnberg Dok. No. 365. (Photocopy in the Institut für
   Zeitgeschichte, München). Quoted in: Anatomie des
   SS-Staates, 6th ed., München, DTV, 1994, p. 649.

Therefore, a better translation would be:

   Given the present situation nothing stands against 
   eliminating those Jews who are not fit for work with 
   Brack's means.

This means there is no "Brack Device" in the form of a single
piece of machinery comparable e.g. to the gassing device used
in Mauthausen. On the other hand the methods of Brack are
amply documented in the context of the T4 programme and clearly
mean the killing with carbon monoxyde. This document is therefore
an important link between the "Aktion Reinhardt" and the
euthanasia programme. Of interest is also that there exists
a written Führer order for the T4 programme and that the methods 
in the euthanasia centres resemble in detail the procedures 
applied in the later destruction camps, ranging from the 
pre-selection to the looting of gold teeth etc.

The complete German document should be uploaded to Nizkor by now.

The above remarks demonstrate what real revisionism is in 
comparison to the cheap smoke screening of "Holocaust 
revisionists". There is nothing to say against revisionism if it 
means taking up a point of criticism, DOING RESEARCH, and then 
revising the previous historiographical opinion by using the 
research results.

Nele




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