The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/a/abels.nele/1996/abels.0996


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Sep  2 09:28:07 PDT 1996
Article: 61624 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: 2 Sep 1996 09:17:43 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

[... I wrote:]
>>My, my, Mr. Giwer. You know perfectly well that we have that 
>>"huge paper trail", since I have pushed your nose into it a 
>>couple of times. That you haven't read the sources is a 
>>completely different game.

[...]

>You should pay more attention to the newsgroup.  Every honest 
>person knows that there have only been a two or three ambiguous 
>documents refering to something about gassing.  

>But then Diogenes must have been searching for a honest 
>holohugger.  

You see Mr. Giwer, that's the difference between us two. I know
perfectly well that the Internet, and especially the newsgroups
which are frequented by admitted liars, are not the most reliable
of all informational sources. Therefore I rely for research 
purposes on _books_ (you know, these old fashioned leafy things
made of paper). And these books give documents galore, completely
unambiguous documents too. The holocaust is overwhelmingly well
documented in contemporary texts - exactly this is the reason
why the "revisionists" switched to the science-game. You should
at least try to be informed on the tactics of your fellow 
believers.

Apart from that. Just the other day I have posted a document 
about the gassing lorries. Not the testimony of an eye witness,
but a document by the department for transportation of the SS.
You must have seen it. What was that talk about "dishonesty" 
again, eh?

Nele


>There's no business like Shoah Business
>Like no business I know.
>Everything about it is appealing,
>Everything that traffic will allow.


Boy, what a wit...





From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Sep  2 13:11:23 PDT 1996
Article: 61682 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ultimate Responsibility
Date: 2 Sep 1996 11:29:32 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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[posted and emailed. Hate mail will be published]


[Tom Moran wrote yet another time:]

>This is a repost.
             
>"Know ye not history and you are doomed to repeat it."


Hehe, I've waited _months_ for this happening. Here again we find 
one of our "revisionist" master-liers fiddling the same old tune 
again. Luckily I had my old response still on the shelf. But I 
really would appreciate if someone could explain to me, _why_ are 
the "revisionists" so keen on repeating the same procedure over 
and over again: they produce some inane drivel, are beaten to 
pulp, retreat to a shameful silence and wait till the dust has 
settled. Then they repost...

Anyway, for your amusement:

A critique on T. Moran's "Ultimate Responsibility"




Quite a while ago, T. Moran published in alt.revisionism the 
essay "Ultimate
Responsibility". Though it has been dealt with extensively, I 
feel, that
some major points have not been touched. Therefore I will post my 
comments
on it. I consider Moran's essay dangerous. It does not fall into 
the category
of usual revisionist writing as a blend of blatant lies and base 
insults. On
the surface, this text tries to appear as a real reflection on 
history, pretend
ing
to judge facts on neutral grounds. Yet the text is a rape of 
history, but in
a subtle way, directed not at the scholar of history, used to 
methods of
argumentation and scholarily proof, but at the uninitiated reader 
whose only
contact with history was perhaps in school. Moran very cunningly 
manipulates
implications. He is very good in establishing a ground of 
half-truths and
hints which are completed in his reader's mind. My essay too is 
directed
at the non-histiorian. It is therefore only partly a historical 
argumentation,
I will also try to show Moran's methods of manipulation. 
"Ultimate
Responsibility" must be taken seriously. It is a piece of 
propaganda, and
probably an effective one.

Quotations which are not marked, are taken from Mr. Moran's text. 
Since
English is only my second language, and therefore my attempts on 
this
language cannot be trusted completely, I will not mark 
orthographical and
syntactical mistakes in quotations, although this is the normal 
practice.
That would make me vulnerable to revisionist agitation. I prefer 
to be
criticized on the grounds of what I say, not of how I write.

Moran introduces the essay as a general treaty on history. "Know 
ye not
history and you are doomed to repeat it", as he writes. The text 
deals
with the history of the "Hebrews", we come to know, who "relish 
in recounting
this history as if it is a high point of achievement". Yet they 
do not
seem to be able to learn from their past, "it is always the other 
guy who
is at fault".

On what sources is this idea based? We find, that Moran seems to 
have got
hold of a calendar with dates of Jewish history. Calendars like 
this are
quite common. Calendars with sport dates can be found, with dates 
of
technical achievements, feminist calendars, calendars with the 
dates of
great explorers. I would not be surprised if there were calendars
remembering the dates of Adolf Hitler's great deeds. But for T. 
Moran this
special calender is extraordinary. It is a proof for the Jewish 
"relish"
in their own history, a document for their attempt of how they
"propagandize all they want about how they brilliant they are, 
how
benevolent they are".

This is a heavy burden for a little calendar, and I am not sure, 
whether
it can as a historical source really meet this task. Neither is 
Moran
since he comes to the brilliant revelation:

   Since these bewailings of dates of reactions are always devoid 
of
   discussing any extenuating circumstances we are left to wonder 
about
   the ultimate cause and effect of the reoccurance.

It is indeed most unfortunate that the task of a calendar 
actually is to
list dates without comment. A calendar is not a history book, Mr. 
Moran,
neither does it pretend to be. But let's see how Moran deals with 
this
poor booklet.

First, he establishes the general feeling of a "research 
enviroment". He
carefully describes its physical appearence and its layout. 
'Aha', thinks
the innocent reader, 'this man really tries to give me a 
picture.' But then
he comes to the contents. Contempt in his voice, he summarizes 
them:

   in each space there is a notation for something the Jews find 
significant,
   such as [...] June 27 notes "The Yiddish newspaper Die Yidishe 
Velt began
   publication in New York (1902)

Between the lines the reader is already introduced to notion that 
these dates
are of no real significance in the context of world history, they 
are just the
above mentioned way of the "Jewish attempt to show their 
brilliance". It is
the same idea which Hitler stated in Mein Kampf, "the Jews are 
the destroyers
of culture and the Jewish press only tries to blind the Aryans 
with their
propaganda", isn't it Mr. Moran? The author then continues with a 
very long
and impressive list of anti-semitic deeds in European history 
since the
medieval ages which he has extracted from the calendar. This list 
is so
impressive that Moran completely forgets that it was him who has 
made the
selection from the things "the Jews find significant". The reader 
has no means
of seeing the true ratio between the remembereance of 
anti-semitism and the
rememberance of Jewish contribution to culture. This gives Mr. 
Moran the
opportunity to claim without fear of contradiction that the main 
task of the
calendar is "bewailing the dates of reactions."

But really impressive is how Mr. Moran describes these acts:

   The Jewish history also cites [...] a substantial recollection 
of their
   effects on others

This is a tall word, Mr. Moran. I can clearly imagine, how in 
1195 the Jews
cunningly effected the people of Speyer by allowing themselves to 
be
massacred. What a master-plan to conquer the world. To do Mr. 
Moran justice,
he at least mentions that there is a "discussion of cause and 
effect". But,
alas, this highly important discussion finds no place in his 
essay, which
is centred exactly around the very point of cause and effect as 
we will see
below.

Is this long list of dates to be trusted? Following Mr. Moran, it 
can be
assumed that the record,

   compiled by the Jewish community is that which they were able 
to find
   but that the full account, if records were available, might 
excede this
   by many times.

We have already heard, that Jewish history cannot be trusted. 
Between the
lines the dates must suspicious because they are the product of 
Jewish
research. But it comes even worse. Mr. Moran found himself not 
able to
retrace the mentioned incidents in the historical literature. 
Long and and
straining must his research have been, yet it produced only one 
single
found: "one example of the above has found it's way into history 
books as
to any details. This is the Spanish expulsion of Jews in 1492." 
Poor Mr.
Moran, he worked so hard and he did not even find a single 
quotation
mentioning the Reichskristallnacht, or the acts of the Hitler 
friendly
Vichy government. This seems a strange thing to me, because, 
although I am
not specialised in anti-semitic history, I have often come across 
similar
incidents in my studies. Perhaps Mr. Moran should have extended 
his
research a bit farther than school books.

Anyway, what are his conclusions? First, he finds that 
antisemitism "spanns
ten centuries and many different areas." This is true and is not 
doubted
by anybody. From the general existence of antisemitism, however, 
he finds
it possible to conclude that the special case of the 
Einsatzgruppen's deeds
in the areas occupied by Hitler-Germany are actually to be seen 
as deeds
of the "people in Hungary, Romania, Ukraine, White Russia and 
else where."
This assumption is neither backed up by sources nor by secondary 
literature.
While the idea that SS and Wehrmacht were helplessly swept by the 
united
will of the suppressed European people into the Jewish genocide 
is strange
at best, Moran's next conclusion is really dangerous to readers 
not used
to historical methodology.

Having introduced the topic "Holocaust", Moran comes to the point 
that:

   we also have to recognize, aside from any moral judgements, 
that whatever
   really happened during WW II is a continuation of the listed 
history above.

With that, he considers the topic closed and changes the subject, 
implying
that the anti-revisionist argumentation is damaged by his line of 
thought.
What he doesn't mention is that nobody denies the fact that the 
national
socialists did not invent anti-semitism. The above quotation is 
intended
to leave the reader with the feeling that the history of 
Holocaust actually
tries to establish the idea that the NS genocide was in each and 
every aspect
original. Since this is not true, it is implied between the 
lines, can't it
be at least assumed that the revisionist cause has a true 
foundation? What
is left out, is the fact that the NS "originality" lies in their 
bureaucratic
effectiveness, in their perversion of the modern principle of 
mass production
to the ends of mass killings. Moran is dangerous at this point, 
not because
he tells lies, but because he leaves out truths.

The long list of atrocities under which the Jewish people have 
suffered must
tell us something, says Mr. Moran, it is all their own fault, 
that's it!

   It is evident that great rage was directed towards the Jews, 
and we must
   recognize that the Jews repeated history suggests that they 
are the
   ultimate responsibility for whatever happened to them.

How does the author come to that point? As mentioned above, Moran 
succeeded
only in finding one single quotation backing up the long list of 
anti-semitic
deeds: the expulsion of Jews from Spain in 1492. Unfortunately, 
he does not
mention his source, it is therefore not possible to validate his 
claims.
Anyway, this is what he says:

The Jews came to Spain together with the Moors who invaded Spain 
in the early
medieaval ages, and were therefore "complices" of the Moors. The 
Moors were
driven out, but the Jews were allowed to stay because they were 
connected in
some way with the bible. Soon the Jews had got hold of the whole 
economy,
"including the agricultural chain", whatever that may mean. 
Consequently
the Spaniards had enough and kicked the Jews out of their 
country. Voila!
It's all their own fault. Hadn't they angered the rightful rulers 
of the land,
they would have been allowed to stay.

This summary of the incidents is full of misconceptions, 
over-simplifications
and things left out. I will try to redraw the picture, although I 
must say,
I could not be bothered with doing extensive research. I only 
took two
random books in the library (no, they are not "Jewish propaganda 
material",
but coincidently written by Oxfordian historians) and read some 
passages.
I worked with

J.H. Elliott, _Imperial Spain, 1469-1716_, London: Edward Arnold, 
3rd ed.,1969
J.B. Trend, _The Civilization of Spain_, Oxford, Oxford 
University Press,
7th ed., 1963.

The first mistake is Moran makes is that he assumes that the Jews 
came to
Spain with the Moors. This is again a Hitlerian thought, the idea 
of the
Jews in the trek of an invading race. A myth, nothing more. When 
the
Jewish state was dissolved by the imperial Rome, Jews emmigrated 
all over
the Empire, and were thus found also in the Spanish provinces. So 
they
were as a people by no way complices of the invading Moors. I 
have no quote
at hand, but you can read about that in every history of Rome.
Second, Moran falsely assumes that the reconquista restored the 
conditions
before the invasion of the Moors, thus the war being "rightful". 
There had
never been anything like a Spanish realm. Under Ferdinand and 
Isabella, for
the first time a unified realm was consolidated. This is 
important as a
background for the Jewish expulsion. On the one hand, the the 
newly emerged
state needed at strong unifying factor. In the Spanish case, this 
was the
catholic belief as a contrast to the islamic moors. On the other 
hand, the
last war which led to the inclusion of the former Kingdom of 
Granada left
the Spanish treasury empty. When Ferdinand established in 1487 
the inquisition
in Spain, this is mainly to be interpreted as an attempt to gain 
control on
the diverse power fractions. But it was also a means of dealing 
with the Jews
who indeed had much wealth, and in consequence to get hold of 
this wealth.

Moran, in his attempt to construct a Jewish conspiracy, carefully 
does not
mention that Jews had little chance of being something other than 
merchants
and physicians. They were nowhere in Europe allowed to own land, 
and were
kept out of the christian guilds. Thus they could not become 
artisans either.
It was not a new phenomenon in history that Jews were sucked 
empty to
finance some state undertaking. Another example for this is the 
way the
ransom for Richard I of England was collected from the Jews of 
London. Don't
believe in the romantic version narrated in "Ivanhoe". The money 
was pressed
out of them. There are numerous other examples on the continent, 
when Jews
were faced to pay for "privileges", which were actually the 
promise that
something nasty would not happen to them. These methods are 
nowadays connected
with organised crime. So if the Jews are to be blamed, it's the 
same way
the victim of a mugger is to be blamed for owning something.

The expulsion of the Jews from Spain proved to be harmful for the 
Spanish
economy in the long run. The crown may have had the opportunity 
to lay their
hands on some funds, but the mass-emigration of Jews damaged the 
infrastructure
needed for a functioning trade. Spain lacked the skilled 
merchants and the
intellectuals. We see the results in the fact that Spain in the 
period
of the conquistadors was bitterly poor and had to export most of 
her gold
to the rest of Europe in order to keep her economy floating, 
although vast
riches came into the country. So by no means can be said that the 
Jews in
Spain were a burden for economy or society. Trend remarks to the 
topic of
Spanish anti-semitism:

   The persecution of a Jew will always achieve cheap popularity, 
and one
   of the least penalties imposed on Spanish Jews was the 
confiscation of
   property. (p. 83)

Most of the above misconception result from the over-simplifying 
view of
history as a struggle of monolithical, individualized powers, who 
strive
for simple and linear aims. In Moran's and Hitler's conception of 
history
we find the same notion of "natural rights" and the same sympathy 
with
reckless excercise of brutal force. Needless to say that this 
picture of
history is naive at best - this is the history of fantasy tales.

Having come to this point, what are the sad remains of Mr. 
Moran's essay. He
simplifies and falsifies one single historical example and draws 
a general
conclusion from false premises. He not even tries to see subtle 
aspects in
historical developement. He speaks of "the Jew" and "the 
Spanish". Point for
point he has the same methods and concepts of history as his 
great idol
Adolf Hitler. And all this he hides under the mask of rational 
discussion
and neutral reflections. The question left open is:

Is he a poor historican or his he a clever demagogue. Is he too 
stupid or
is he too cunning.

Whatever he is, don't fall for him.





From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep  4 07:04:55 PDT 1996
Article: 62159 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "Diversity" -- White Code Word
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 16:11:42 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:
Thankyou for that; and we believe, because it is true, there was no , is
>no  holocaust against the j*w. If anything, the slimey Kulaks wage a

I wonder if you really know what "Kulaks" are... If a word sounds strange
it must be an insult, eh? "Revisionist" education...

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep  4 07:04:55 PDT 1996
Article: 62167 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Opinions on Nuremberg
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 16:41:14 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 18
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <50jmkb$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <508501$cgq@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>"The Nuremberg Trials ... had been popular throughout the world and
>particularly in the United States. Equally popular was the sentence
>already announced by the high tribunal: death. But what kind of trial
>was this? ...The Constitution was not a collection of loosely given
[and so on]

Ah, I can guess what you are up to: the Holocaust hasn't taken place because
the Nuremberg trial was the justice of victors. When will you finally get it into
your thick head that the files of the Nuremberg trials are _NOT_ the primary
source material for the history of Holocaust. Tons and tons of completely
unambiguous material has been produced in the time between 33 and 45.
You and the other "revisionists" don't know it. That's all, but it's not an
excuse.

Idiot.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep  4 07:04:56 PDT 1996
Article: 62170 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Jbelling contines to troll... Re: Himmler's Posen Speech Again
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 17:04:02 GMT
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>There you go again, changing the subject.  My identity or
>identities  are none of your business....how about that for a response?
>What is your address and phone number and what is your bank account
>number?  Don't avoid answering the questions....inquiring minds want to know.

You are too big a coward to use a real name.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep  4 07:04:57 PDT 1996
Article: 62171 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 17:12:59 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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Distribution: world
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

[ I pointed Mr. Giwer at his mistake about the abundant source material]

>And of course you belive they can not pring a book unless it is true.
>So what point are you trying to make really?  Are you next going to
>tell that they can not say it on television unless it is true?

No, Mr. Giwer I do not believe that all printed books are true. But you can
bet your head that documents published in a heated discussion amongst
historians (btw not "heated" in the sense you would like) are carefully
checked by the antagonists. Fake citations or even falsified documents
would be exposed recklessly at once and would be a cause of deep embarrasment
for the publishing researcher. What do you think, why is Irving only being
laughed at? The great conspiracy again?

>>Apart from that. Just the other day I have posted a document
>>about the gassing lorries. Not the testimony of an eye witness,
>>but a document by the department for transportation of the SS.
>>You must have seen it. What was that talk about "dishonesty"
>>again, eh?

>	So what?  The "testimony" as we all know, is so enmired in perjury,
>torture and barbaric standards of justice that it is of no value.  We
>all know that.  That means that you konw that and I know that.

You _are_ abysmally stupid, aren't you? Please try to re-read my above passage.
I explicitly wrote that I did not offered a testimony but an official document - a
part of your wide paper trace. Aren't you ashamed to expose your idiocy in
public?

[...]
>>Boy, what a wit...

>Thank you but I owe my inspiration to a Jew.

You see, your originality doesn't even reach THAT far...

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep  4 07:04:57 PDT 1996
Article: 62184 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 16:27:41 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>Hopefully I will explain this so even you may understand.  What I said
[...]

Ah, something I forgot: when you read "pornographer", please try to understand
that we are talking about the 30s and 40s and that you should not expect
what you will find in the net nowadays.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep  4 10:48:52 PDT 1996
Article: 62247 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Julius Streicher - PORNOGRAPHER
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 16:25:22 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 24
Distribution: world
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
[...]
>Hopefully I will explain this so even you may understand.  What I said
> was "Whenever I read anything about Julius Streicher, he is referred
> to as a pornographer.  Obviously, if a dozen  so-called "respectable"
>authors are referring to this man as a pervert and a pornograher, they
> ought to prove it.  It is quite clear to me that the prosecution at Nuremberg
>used the albumen article to prove that this was a form of profligacy or porn-
>ography, along with an article about a Jewish doctor seducing an Aryan girl.

Ok, I will use very short sentences, so that you can grasp it all:

1)  "He who makes the claim has to provide the evidence"
2) The usual opinion is that Streicher was a pornographer.
3) You want to verify, if possible to disqualify this opinion.
4) Therefore, you make the claim.
5) You need the right sources to do so.
6) You looked up the wrong sources. (The documents of the Auschwitz trial)
7) You used secondary material as primary source. This isn't appropriate either.
8) I pointed you at the right sources.
9) The rest is up to you.
10) Finally stop speculating.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep  4 12:55:37 PDT 1996
Article: 62292 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 17:02:29 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 43
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <50jns6$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
[...]
>Must I always do your work for you?

Yes, it would be very laudable if you finally would do your homework.

> It is obvious that Himmler is
>referring here to the warfare with the Partisans.

Himmler said in roughly these words: "Most of you have seen a thousand or
more corpses side by side. This is hard, but one has to endure it and to stay
morally clean".

A batallion of partisans on one spot? Strange guerilla warfare...

And: "When a tank ditch has to be excavated by women and you say 'I can't
do that, these women will die' then I will say 'If this tank ditch is not excavated
than you will become the murderer of your own women and children'..."

Warfare with partisans?

And: "We have to kill the women and children, or else in their offspring new
ememies of the German people will rise."

Warfare with partisans???

>This explanation has been posted often enough.

Repeating this lame excuse over and over again doesn't make it truer.

>Now, how about answering a
>question for us:  who found these tapes, where did they find them,
>when did they find them, and under what circumstances?

Go into a library, take a printed publication of these speeches, and you
will find all your questions answered.

>Inquiring minds want to know.....

What a moron.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep  4 16:49:47 PDT 1996
Article: 62325 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ye shall smell gas where there be no gas
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 17:25:30 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <50jp7b$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <509089$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]
>If someone disagrees with me, take it up with Simon.  But then we all
>know he lies a lot.

>WW II American airman Paul Stralka shares details of his stay at
>Buchenwald for the Duluth  News Tribune by recalling "long lines of prisoners being led to
>the gas chambers, which were usually disguised as showers." Unfortunately, Buchenwald is
>in Germany, and as we  all know, "there were no extermination camps on German soil"
>(Simon Wiesenthal, Books and Bookmen, April, 1975).

>	But then what does the subborner in chief know?

Giwer is not only a liar (that he doesn't protest, affirms that he he earns the title) but also
an idiot beyond any mortal bounds. That there were no extermination camps in Germany
does of course NOT mean that there were no gas chambers or no gassed people. As usual
his conclusions are completely worthless. (I wonder were he has done his degree in science?)

Hey, Giwer, at what university DID you do your BS in science?

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep  4 18:55:32 PDT 1996
Article: 62397 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No criminal evidende in the Wannsee protocol
Date: Wed, 04 Sep 96 16:38:04 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 33
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>1/28/87
>     SS Gruppenfuehrer Gerhard Klopfer, who served as state secretary
>in the Party Chancellery under Martin Bormann and was the last
>surviving member of the Wannsee Conference (at which it was alleged
>that details were worked out for the "final solution") dies in
>Heilbronn, West Germany. Klopfer was charged with war crimes at
>Nuernberg, but the case was dropped for lack of evidence, and in fact
>Klopfer was
>permitted to resume practicing law in 1956. This lends credence to the
>proposition that the Wannsee Conference had nothing to with with an
>extermination program.

BZZZT, wrong conclusion. The candidate has lost it all! No-one put to prison
after the war (with the exception of Rudolf Hess*) ) had to serve more then
5 of 6 years. After that all of them were free. The judicial system in Western Germany
has never been cleaned from Nazis after the war. The "Entnazifizierung" was a
big joke. Therefore no conclusion about his role in the Wannsee conference is
possible. The only conclusion possible is that the verdicts of the trials against
SS-men in the 60s and 70s are to be trusted. No "axe to grind", no torture, no
excuses for "revisionists".

But, as usual you don't know anything.

Nele

*) Hess died in Spandau prison two or three years ago. I personally consider it a
mistake that he wasn't set free, because his death provided the neo-fascist
idiots with a desperately needed martyr. (The number of fascist "martyrs" is
astonishingly little despite the "revisionist" whining about their being in grave
danger)




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Sep  6 07:23:26 PDT 1996
Article: 62926 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 18:35:46 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 11
Distribution: world
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gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote:
>:>	For anyone who has witnessed the constant onslaught of the
>:>Holocaust story, in our medias and in books, it becomes apparent it is
>:>almost always the Jews who are the ones who bemoan the story and no
>:>one else.

>Wrong again, Tommie.  I bemoan the story and I sure as hell ain't Jewish.

So do I.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Sep  6 10:59:33 PDT 1996
Article: 62932 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: GIWER SEES GENOCIDE AS LEGITIMATE ACT OF WAR (was Re: Ausrotten again)
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 18:57:25 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <50p74m$b7g@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <50jns6$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <50jr53$nka@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <322D8490.D6D@serv.net> <50m9es$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>>         Yes.  It is as old as the old testiment and as new as "The Godfather"
>>> that women and children are to be killed in such cultures.  Are you
>>> really imposing 1990s US culture on the rest of the world?  Are you
>>> really that stupid?

>>To which cultures does your phrase 'such cultures' refer?  The
>>convention of noncombatant immunity is not a recent development in
>>Western thought.

>	For example, cultures like Israel that punishes the family of the
>suspect even before he is arrested whenever possible.
[...]

Yout said that it is A NORMAL ACT OF WAR TO KILL WOMEN AND CHILDREN so
that there will be NOBODY LEFT to revenge. THIS IS GENOCIDE.

Would you mind to explain, exactly why you have problems believing the holocaust?

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Sep  6 14:27:27 PDT 1996
Article: 63003 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 18:49:58 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 54
Distribution: world
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Yet another time Giwer insists on talking about things he knows nothing about.
He hasn't read the source, he doesn't know history. Yet by all means he
must babble on and on...

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>Himmler said in roughly these words: "Most of you have seen a thousand or
>>more corpses side by side. This is hard, but one has to endure it and to stay
>>morally clean".

>>A batallion of partisans on one spot? Strange guerilla warfare...

>	No.  Combat troops had seen the thousand or so of their own and
>others.  So what is your point?

Go and read the source. Read the discussion. Then come back and talk. Himmler does
not speak about war casualities nor about battles. He speaks about people killed by
non-combat troops. "Rblackmore"'s point was that Himmler was speaking about
killing partisans. I pointed out that you will hardly find hundreds of partisans on one
spot, therefore his conclusion is wrong.

>>And: "When a tank ditch has to be excavated by women and you say 'I can't
>>do that, these women will die' then I will say 'If this tank ditch is not excavated
>>than you will become the murderer of your own women and children'..."

>>Warfare with partisans?

>	Actually it was a rule of war at the time that partisans could be
>executed on site without a trial of any kind.  But you know that.

I addressed my comment to people who know the source not to idiotic trolls like you.
Your wild speculations led you into the wrong direction. If you are interested in the
context, go and read the source. (This is the guy who babbles about
"scientific methods"??)

>>And: "We have to kill the women and children, or else in their offspring new
>>ememies of the German people will rise."

>>Warfare with partisans???

>	Yes.  It is as old as the old testiment and as new as "The Godfather"
>that women and children are to be killed in such cultures.  Are you
>really imposing 1990s US culture on the rest of the world?  Are you
>really that stupid?

As you see my email-adress on the top of this post, you will know that I have little
reason to "impose 1990s US culture" on anybody. As a matter of fact, you will
have to look hard to find civilized people in the world who share your view of
murdering children and women being a legitimate act of war.

But thank you very much for stating that exterminating a whole nation IS
a legitimate act.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Sep  6 21:32:49 PDT 1996
Article: 63046 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Very First Extermination Accusation
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 19:30:43 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 8
Distribution: world
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mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote:
[...]
>Where did you get this little tid-bit?

Ah, let's be fair. I assume, he looked up the 12.5.1933 number of the  _London Daily News_ in
a library. Nethertheless his conclusion is worthless.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Sep  6 21:32:49 PDT 1996
Article: 63047 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Very First Extermination Accusation
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 19:31:59 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 10
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <50p95g$b7g@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
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Alexander Baron  wrote:
[...]
>There were claims even before that. As soon as Hitler took power in fact.
>At one point the Jewish Chronicle even accused Jewish organisations of
>spreading false propaganda!

Hey, hey, hey! How does this go along with your bad dreams about the
unbroken front of the Jewish conspiracy?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Sep  7 09:23:11 PDT 1996
Article: 63063 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ye shall smell gas where there be no gas
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 19:42:13 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 22
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <50p9on$b7g@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <509089$ppv@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <50jp7b$l6u@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <50m8u5$7t8@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]
>>Giwer is not only a liar (that he doesn't protest, affirms that he he earns the title) but also
>>an idiot beyond any mortal bounds. That there were no extermination camps in Germany
>>does of course NOT mean that there were no gas chambers or no gassed people. As usual
>>his conclusions are completely worthless. (I wonder were he has done his degree in science?)

>	How could you judge as you have zero familiarity with any form of
>science?  But you know that.

That I am no scientist does not mean that I have no connection to academia. And here we
come to the point of judging your statements. You just made the same logical mistake you
have made in your first post. Your conclusion expands the premisess. Very simple indeed,
but perhaps to much for a IQ163 hulk. (BTW, Giwer got this result by self-assessment :)) )

>>Hey, Giwer, at what university DID you do your BS in science?

>	It has been posted many times.  Look it up.

No, you have never posted it. At what university DID you do your BS in science?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Sep  8 08:01:12 PDT 1996
Article: 63455 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.slack,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Germany blocks access to XS4ALL
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 18:11:54 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 17
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <50p4fb$b7g@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <50md3e$b5v@mtinsc01-mgt.ops.worldnet.att.net>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.slack:48430 alt.revisionism:63455

modemac@tiac.net (Modemac) wrote:
>The following message is forwarded from Declan McCullagh's fight-censorship
>mailing list.  Germany is moving to block access to XS4ALL because it
>doesn't like the politics of one of the web sites hosted there.

I just tried it. No problem. Free access.

[...]

>However, just in case the German government is successful in this
>censorship gambit, I've mirrored the three embattled web sites at:

It is a bit naive to assume that the German "government" (questionable as the
attitude of the present majority parties may be) would be able to censor the net
access all over Germany without a considerable uproar from the press.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Sep  8 11:00:23 PDT 1996
Article: 63543 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!fu-berlin.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!usenet
From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Who sides with Hitler?
Date: 8 Sep 1996 14:22:00 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>Hitler and the 'Big Lie' 

>It has been repeated so often that virtually no one bothers to
>challenge it: Adolf Hitler created and used the "Big Lie," one 
>of his many evil techniques. As holds true for so many things we
>are told, this belief, too, must be examined to see 
>the underlying truth. 

>In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote: 

[...]
>
>Clearly, Hitler is not advocating the use of the "Big Lie," and, 
>far from creating it, he is in fact is ascribing the "Big Lie" 
>technique to the Jews and Marxists. The "Big Lie" technique
>is Hitler's in the same fashion that Halley's Comet is Halley's 
>-- not because either man was the inventor, but rather because 
>he was the discoverer. 

BWAHAHA! Fat laughter. It has been known for decades (check
E. Jaeckel's _Hitler's world view_ in the early 60s) that Hitler
didn't invent ANYTHING. The only "big lies" around here come
>from  Giwer's big mouth. Apart from that: Hitler is repeating
for the umpteenth time anti-semitic commonplaces. He should be
the "Discoverer"?? 

Additionally: you obviously believe what Hitler writes here. What
about your statement that you are not anti-semitic?

>Sources

>Adolf Hitler. Mein Kampf. James Murphy, translator. London, New >York, Melbourne: Hurst and Blackett Ltd; April 1942; page 134.
>Page 211 of the Mannheim translation, London: Hutchinson; 1969.
>Page 232 of the Houghton-Mifflin edition.

I strongly suspect that somebody else has written this for the
Giwer troll. Neither will he have read "Mein Kampf" (tedious
reading BTW) nor has he ever been able to give precise and
complete annotations. Besides, the text is written too coherently
for a typical Giwer-product.

>We have two interesting points here.  The important one is 
>addressed in the source.  The second one is that Hitler firmly 
>comes down on the side that one can be an atheist Jew.  He must 
>have had rabbinical training to have been so far ahead of his 
>time.  

Rubbish. Anti-semitism had already developed the concept of
race at that time. Nothing new here either. Only just another
stupid attempt of denouncing the victims of racism as racist.

What an idiot.

Nele





From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Sep  9 13:18:31 PDT 1996
Article: 63791 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: More "Eyewitness Testimony" Won't Help Holocaust
Date: 8 Sep 1996 14:06:29 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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kurtstele@aol.com (Kurt Stele) wrote:
[...]

>More eyewitness testimony isn't going to help the Holocaust.  
>Only the discovery of a huge paper trail (and I mean HUGE) could 
>possibly bail out Holohoax at this point.

>But tomorrow you just might hear this "mysterious" paper trail >is suddenly "discovered."  I wouldn't put anything past the 
>hoaxsters.  

Oh come on, Giwer, don't try stupid games. You should finally 
believe that the people around here are above your intellectual
level. You know perfectly well that there are documents galore
dealing with the holocaust, and I don't mean secondary
literature. I have stuck you nose into one or two of them.
Apart from that, historians have been working with the
existing "paper-trail" for decades. It doesn't need to be
"discovered".

>At that point, the hoaxsters will have the dubious task of 
>tracing the origins of this paper trail and why this huge file >was not found with all he others, where it would have been 
>found normally.

Of course it was found, it was "with all the others", it was
in the German administrational and SS archives.

[...]

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Sep  9 13:18:33 PDT 1996
Article: 63824 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No criminal evidende in the Wannsee protocol
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 18:53:43 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
> No torture? Let just say that it didn't transpire if it happened.
> Poor Bauer, he chose to deny the gas chambers in his camp and died in his
>  early fifties...coincidence?

Torture? Ok, give one, just ONE single piece of evidence hinting at torture
in the (West-)German judicial system after 45. Then we can carry on...

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Sep  9 13:18:34 PDT 1996
Article: 63835 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Opinions on Nuremberg
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 18:57:29 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 17
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>	Now that you are admitting that the first material, that which
>was used at Nuremberg, is ambiguous

No, not at all. Learn to read. Learn to think. Then write. I have made a statement
about the main sources used for the Holocaust-historiography. I have made no
statement about the value of the documents of the Nuremberg trials. The implication
is yours, not mine. (What a bunch of pea-brains)

> maybe you can introduce your other
>evidence, the "tons and tons of unamgiguous material".
>	Go for it. Just show a few pounds of the "tons and tons".

You won't expect me type in the annotations of nearly every research paper on
aspects of the Holocaust. Go to the library and look for yourself.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Sep  9 13:23:03 PDT 1996
Article: 63824 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No criminal evidende in the Wannsee protocol
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 18:53:43 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:
> No torture? Let just say that it didn't transpire if it happened.
> Poor Bauer, he chose to deny the gas chambers in his camp and died in his
>  early fifties...coincidence?

Torture? Ok, give one, just ONE single piece of evidence hinting at torture
in the (West-)German judicial system after 45. Then we can carry on...

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Sep  9 13:23:06 PDT 1996
Article: 63835 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Opinions on Nuremberg
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 18:57:29 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>	Now that you are admitting that the first material, that which
>was used at Nuremberg, is ambiguous

No, not at all. Learn to read. Learn to think. Then write. I have made a statement
about the main sources used for the Holocaust-historiography. I have made no
statement about the value of the documents of the Nuremberg trials. The implication
is yours, not mine. (What a bunch of pea-brains)

> maybe you can introduce your other
>evidence, the "tons and tons of unamgiguous material".
>	Go for it. Just show a few pounds of the "tons and tons".

You won't expect me type in the annotations of nearly every research paper on
aspects of the Holocaust. Go to the library and look for yourself.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Sep  9 16:13:51 PDT 1996
Article: 63884 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ye shall smell gas where there be no gas
Date: Mon, 09 Sep 96 19:06:29 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 31
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	Just what does a "connection to academia" have to do with an ability
>to judge science?  The ego of students knows no bounds.  Second year,
>right?

Do you know the difference between the humanities and science? No you don't.
But here lies your answer. Logic is needed in both branches. You have no real
understanding of logic or else you would have found the answer for yourself.

>	If you want to talk logic, where are you when people answer a request
>of physical evidence with any but physical evidence?

Evading, evading over the deep blue sea... So you admit that you have made a
major logical blunder? And you claim to be a scientist, you ridiculous person?

> Why the
>selective application or do I have to ask?  (I know, you can not
>determine what physical evidence means, typical academic.)

Well, can you? Lots of people around here ARE scientists (and I don't mean
that they have a puny BS in science) and they claim that there is physical
evidence galore.

[...]
>>No, you have never posted it. At what university DID you do your BS in science?

>	Look it up.

It has never been posted. And I would hardly be surprised if your degree is a lie too.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Tue Sep 10 07:18:44 PDT 1996
Article: 64102 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Very First Extermination Accusation
Date: Fri, 06 Sep 96 19:27:22 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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Once again: wrong conclusions due to an astonishing lack of historical
knowledge.

rblackmore@juno.com wrote:
>I believe I have traced the very first written reference
>to Hitler and mass exterminations.  In the Illustrated
>London Daily News, the following report appeared:
[...]
>Not surprisingly, the culprits identities were not disclosed.   What was
>written on the placard?   "Hitler-the Mass Murderer."
>The date of the occurance?    May 12, 1933!
>Mighty prophetic, I would say, but to what end:  exterminations or accusations?

The three arrested men were probably socialists or communists (the read paint hints
at that). If you would know at least a little bit about the German history of the so-called
"Kampfzeit" you would know that the struggle between the national socialists and the
communists could hardly be compared with nowadays party struggles. There were
many casualties on both sides - wounded and dead. The three men certainly
were pointing at dead communists. They did not adress the NS crimes against the Jews.

And by no means did they use the word "mass extermination".

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 11 17:18:12 PDT 1996
Article: 64475 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME)
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 20:42:12 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]
>>Er, Mr. Giwer, he compared Holocaust-"REVISIONISM" with UFO abductions, RSCA,
>>and witchcraft - a comparison which is quite justified since Holocaust-"revisionism" works
>>only on the assumption of a gigantic conspiracy...
>>[...]

>	Revisionism is based upon the non-existance of physical evidence for
>all the claimed attrocities and the absurdity of the claims of the
>witnesses, such as the women dancing naked and the maniacal laughter
>right out of B horror movies and the witchcraft trials.

No, no, Mr. Giwer. "Revisiniosm" isn't based on anything because it doesn't put forward
anything. "Revisionism" exhaust itself in questioning a general consensus without presenting
any evidence why the commonly assumed standpoint should be wrong. "Revisionism" starts at
and stops with plain denying. That's all. Therefore "revisionism" is a matter entirely in the
"revisionists" mind - a belief.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 11 17:18:13 PDT 1996
Article: 64476 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Oprah Winfrey next week
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 20:35:14 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 11
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	She investigates the holocaust.
>Mon: 	Expresses sympathy for survivors who heare maniacal laughtere
>over fighter plane engines.
>Tues:	Sympathizes with those who saw the faces of the pilots through
>closed wagons.
[and so on]

What is this sick and lonely man trying to say?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Sep 13 17:53:47 PDT 1996
Article: 65204 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power
Subject: Re: Ye shall smell gas where there be no gas
Date: 11 Sep 1996 12:48:42 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:65204 alt.politics.white-power:43130

mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>I'm not but you are.  I haven't heard that one since early
>gradeschool.  

You mean you have been hearing that one since early gradeschool, 
don't you?

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Sep 14 10:04:51 PDT 1996
Article: 65417 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What G”ring Knew
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 19:20:25 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]
>	Military action against Poland had nothing whatsoever to do with Jews,
>nor was it justified based upon Jews, in fact it was announced and the
>people approved.  After all, it was returning a part of Germany to
>Germany.

Er, you aren't particularily familiar with European history, are you?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Sep 14 10:04:52 PDT 1996
Article: 65423 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: All mouth - No substance
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 19:00:09 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 16
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]
>No one supporting Pollard is an American, even YFE.
>YFE was never considered an American.
>YFE is only a Jew.  Being a Jew supporting Israeli murder is
>unamerican.

"Kein Jude kann Volksgenosse sein", "No Jew can be compatriot"
				(Party programme of the NSDAP)

>Anyone doing so is deserving of only a speedy trial and a slow
>exectuion.  YFE and Pollard are in the same camp.

You are a sick, sick man.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sat Sep 14 10:04:53 PDT 1996
Article: 65424 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Always believe Russina Sources
Date: Thu, 12 Sep 96 19:00:54 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>It has been posted.

He is lying (yawn)

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Sep 15 09:26:59 PDT 1996
Article: 65794 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: AN INVITATION TO TOM MORAN (was Re: ALL BY THEIR LONESOME)
Date: 13 Sep 1996 11:17:03 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	It has been posted.  Look it up, braindead holohugger.  

You haven't. You are lying as usual.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Sep 15 15:53:17 PDT 1996
Article: 43372 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Was Gerhard Lauck Framed By Anti-Racists?
Date: Fri, 13 Sep 96 22:33:30 GMT
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Reiner Eschbach  wrote:
[... Dave Harman:]
>> Liar.  Mein Kampf is illegal throughout Germany.  Almost no Germans
>> have read it but licensed historians who, of course, have to prove
>> fidelity to the anti-racist global vision before achieving access to
>> the text.
>
>Funny, when I look into my shelf, I find an issue of Mein Kampf, bought around 1984
>in Germany ( lived there 'till 86 ). When I look at my business card, it does not say
>historian or anything close to that. Well, I must be dreaming, there just can not be
>any Mein Kampf on my shelf!

What is a "licensed historian"? Has this something to do with double zeroes? :) Anyway
it is not possible to buy "Mein Kampf" in Germany. After the World War II the Bavarian
government acquired the rights on this book and chose not to publish it in order to
"improve the image of the Federal Republic abroad." Nowadays it is locked away in the
libraries and you have to go great lengths if you want to have a look at it. I think this
is quite ridiculous because it is well-known that there are no original Hitlerian ideas, and
all his sources are freely available. So what's the point? Regarding the book, you
certainly will be able to get copies from neo-fascist organisations, who import them illegally
>from  the USA.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Sep 15 19:46:05 PDT 1996
Article: 65925 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ausrotten again
Date: Tue, 10 Sep 96 20:47:51 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]
>>>	No.  Combat troops had seen the thousand or so of their own and
>>>others.  So what is your point?
>
>>Go and read the source. Read the discussion. Then come back and talk. Himmler does
>>not speak about war casualities nor about battles. He speaks about people killed by
>>non-combat troops. "Rblackmore"'s point was that Himmler was speaking about
>>killing partisans. I pointed out that you will hardly find hundreds of partisans on one
>>spot, therefore his conclusion is wrong.

>	Even better.  Partisans were subject to summary execution.  Fighting
>without a uniform was like that.

You are an idiot beyond bounds. Will you please tell me why you are not even able to read a
short paragraph of 5 lines and understand its contents? Not I did say that they were partisans,
but "Rblackmore" did. I said they were NOT partisans because you will NEVER find a battalion
of partisans on one spot. Oh, boy...

[The rest of Giwer's idiotic post is clipped]

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Mon Sep 16 19:18:59 PDT 1996
Article: 66176 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Fascist Continent
Date: 14 Sep 1996 10:41:49 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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>Shriker replies:
>Maybe the saddest aspect of the ideology-religion of Nazism and its "unique"  
>totalitarian culture, is that it was not an aberration.  It was, in fact, the very 
>flower of European culture, and reflected the basic immorality of the society.  Hitler's 
>was not the first but the _third_ reich.  As such, its essence was true to form. 

   It is certainly not possible to evaluate the European 
phenomenon fascism in terms that easy. First it is to be 
remarked that the third Reich was called that way because
Hitler strived to construct a tradition reaching back to the 
first, mediaeval German Reich and to Bismarcks creation. This 
reflects the highly ambivalent nature of German fascism which 
combined the ideal of a mystified past on the outside with an 
utterly revolutionary core. The inner structure Hitler's state 
broke completely with the past Germany. The old elites were 
pushed from their throne. The new leading elite emerged from
the ranks of the petty bourgeoisie. The most striking symptom
of the Nazis' idea of a completely changed society was their
youth cult. In its purest form this cult could be found in the
SS-Ordensburgen where the youth was moulded to the new form 
intended by the new leaders - far away from the influence of 
their parents or old teachers, far away from anything connection 
to past society.

   Nazism evolved on the grounds of a special German situation. 
This cannot be doubted. But as little as Nazism can therefore be 
identified with pre-Hitlerian Germany (the Nazis were the last 
ones to claim that their state would be Weimar), as little can 
European fascism be identifed with European cultural traditions. 
it is quite the contrary - it is the dialectic turning over of a 
discourse which seemed outdated and outlived because it had 
failed to deal with the historical challenge which led to the 
first world war. Alternatives were sought after and communism 
and fascism seemed for a while to be the new forms of human 
society which would take the place of the outlived ones.

>But note that in the 1930s we *Americans* weren't at each 
>other's throats--we pull together in adversity, to our 
>everlasting credit and their everlasting shame.

   It is futile to compare the American situation in the 30s
with the Europrean theatre. Hardly any historical parameter 
concurred. War had been waged in Europe. Two of the three major 
European powers had suffered warefare on their territory. 
Germany was humiliated and in general turmoil anyway. France
had won the war but had suffered severe losses of human life.
The two nations watched each other with drawn knifes. Great 
Britain's days of a glorious empire were past, she was heavily 
indebted to the USA. The Great War certainly left far more 
questions opened than answers were given. 

   The USA on the other hand had taken part in the war, but 
this war has been far away. They did not have the problems which
the existence of many relatively small nation states meant for 
Europe. That has been solved after the civil war. In the US there 
were no war enemies facing each other with hate. And most 
importantly, in the US there was no Adolf Hitler. The outbreak
of the second world war is therefore no question of "credit" or
"shame" or a mystical quality of "being American" which enabled
the people "to pull together in adversity". 

>Though we have superficially similar social systems, we are 
>not_ them. [...]

   This is certainly true. The European onlooker is usually 
bewildered by the strangely amusing pathos which seems to be 
dripping from every American cultural expression. Everything 
seems to be too loud, too colourful, too big. Everything must be
explicitely said, nothing is left between the lines. Silence is 
unfashionable. "Subtleness" is not a word invented in the United 
States. This can be seen hardly clearer than in the newest 
American clownery "Independence Day" which leaves the educated 
European puzzled: are they taking themselves seriously or is this
a giant piss-take on "American values"? How can one be so shrill 
without being ironic? But then - Hollywood is located in the US,
isn't it? And just why do they always insist on saving us??

   Anyway, this is the cue which leads to the strange paradoxon 
of this post. From the beginning to the end it is a construction 
of a mystical "America". The world is seen through 
red-and-striped glasses: European society is "immoral" - "moral" 
being the moral of the white puritan, of course). *Americans* 
stick together - note the stars. The European reluctance to wage 
war is suspicious and "hypercautious" - how would the US act if 
the two greatest wars in human history had been fought on their 
grounds? But more strikingly the "honest" way would be to follow 
the American way of life: play the policeman in your backyard. 
Strangely the "Europeans" seem not to want to do this. What could 
be the reason? At once a very American answer comes to 
the Amercian mind: it must be their fear of a "Moslem 
souvereignty". As if the percentage of a muslim population 
wouldn't be much higher in central Europe than in the USA (the 
Algerians in France, the Turks in Germany, not to speak of 
British Muslims). As if the "Muslim terrorist" wouldn't have 
taken the place of the "Soviet agent" and even the "Columbian 
drug baron" as a paradigmatic sign for "the Evil" in US cultural 
expressions already years ago. 

   So the "American view" is the only view to see the world, 
their way the only way to do it. But how can this be reconciled 
with the ideal of diversity put forward on the surface of this 
post? We have still to wait for the black atheist in the white 
house, so we can only speculate whether the "American" way 
idealized here really reflects America or wheter it is not only a 
myth created by the white Anglo Saxon protestant ruling class.
What this post does is to substitute European nationalism - which 
is criticized entirely rightfully - with a different "-ism". And 
therefore it arrives at the usual stand: our country is the best, 
you out there (whose languages we don't understand anyway) should 
become as we are, or else... "Am deutschen Wesen soll die Welt 
genesen" or "The new world order" - the effect is the same. 


  Thus, this naive post is dangerous in its own way. Nobody 
denies that Europe has its (its?) problems. But here we find the 
implication that there is a simple solution, the solution of 
being "American" and then all problems fade away. "Just believe 
in the right dream and everything will be okay." We should not 
forget that there will never be a simple solution, nor that 
tolerance starts where the otherness begins to hurt. 


Nele

[posted and emailed]



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 18 01:10:10 PDT 1996
Article: 66513 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Stumpy is easily amazed.
Date: 15 Sep 1996 13:51:23 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>Which is why Israel has not admitted it murder of the crew of 
>the Liberty of an the Palestinians in Qana.  

Isn't it amazing how similar the topics of Mr. Giwer and a 
certain "Kurt Stele" are?

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 18 01:10:12 PDT 1996
Article: 66514 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Where is our german linguist?
Date: 15 Sep 1996 14:03:27 GMT
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On Thu, 12 Sep 1996, Jean-Francois Beaulieu wrote:

> 
>   By the way, I'd like to know if our eminent German linguist 
>can find anywhere in a german dictionnary 'vergasungskeller' or 
>its equivalent 'gaskeller' or in a newspaper, a book, anywhere, 
>and a context for which it is supposed to be a 'gas chamber' , I 
>mean, something else than a post war claim about this january 
>1943 letter. 

   No problem. "Vergasungskeller" is a compound noun, which falls 
apart into the two nouns "Vergasung" und "Keller". The meaning of 
"Keller" should be clear. The method of qualifying the meaning of 
nouns by building compound forms is a very productive feature of 
the German language. (Many students of German know and detest 
this :) ) But this functions in a similar fashion in English. The 
first particle qualifies the second. "Lesesaal" is the "Saal" 
where the "Lesen" takes place (reading-room), "Waschraum" is the 
"Raum" where the "Waschen" takes place washing-room), 
"Vergasungskeller"  is the "Keller" where the "Vergasung" takes 
place. 

   "Vergasung" is defined in the dictionary with sources:

   Vergasung, die ; -,-en: 1 (Fachspr.) das Vergasen (1), 
Vergastwerden: Die Anlage ... eignet sich zur V. aller ... 
Holzabfaelle (NNN 29.6.84,3) (2.a) das Vergasen (2a), 
Vergastwerden: Ich habe von Anfang an gewusst, dass wir nach 
Auschwitz zur V. kommen (Hochhut, Stellvertreter 178) [...]
   
   [Duden: das grosse Woerterbuch der deutschen Sprache, Band 8,
   Mannheim etc.: Dudenverlag, 2nd ed., 1995]

   "Vergasung" has therefore two means. First it is a technical 
term describing a process of turning a substance into a gaseous 
state. Second it means "to kill with gas". This means that, 
following the semantics alone, a "Vergasungskeller" is a cellar 
where either substances are turned to gas or a cellar where 
people are killed with gas. 
   To find out which specific meaning of "Vergasungskeller" is 
used in the present case, one has to look at contextual material. 
"Revisionists" have favoured the first meaning (I think it was 
Butz) but have failed to provide any evidence for machinery which 
could have served the purpose of turning a certain substance to 
gas. On the other hand there is abundant evidence (documents, 
physical evidence, testimonies of SS-men and victims) that 
actually people were put to death in the cellar with the use of 
gas.

   This means that a "Vergasungskeller" is definitely a cellar 
were people are killed with the use of gas - a room which is 
usually called "gas chamber" in the English language and which 
may be called "Gaskammer" in German.

>  There's now a strong argument which show that the guy who used 
>this word did it to described a kind of   air raid shelter in 
>connection with chemical walfare (this russian-german military 
>dictionnary) in this famous letter. 

   Highly improbable because "Vergasen/Vergasung" does not have 
the connotation of protection. The only way to express this 
concept in a compound would be "Gasschutzkeller" 
(gas-protection-cellar) or something like that.

>  If everyone around him used always 'gaskammer' to describe a 
>gas chamber (the delousing facilities and the american gas 
>chambers) than one may hardly explain why he decided suddenly to 
>use the equivalent of 'chemical air raid shelter' while he was 
>supposed to have in the mind 'gas chamber'.

   This "contradiction" is nonexistent because "Vergasungskeller" 
or "Gaskammer" mean more or less the same the same. 
"Vergasungskeller" has additionally the concept of being below 
ground. "Gasschutzkeller" is an entirely different word. 

   As usually the points "revisionists" make stem from a lack of
knowledge.

Nele

P.S. Note that Mr. Beaulieu has me this post some days ago, 
before It becaume visible on my news-server. I answered it 
promptly. Till now I have received no answer from him. I consider 
it very impolite to not to react on solicited mails just because 
the contents are not agreeable.







From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 18 01:10:13 PDT 1996
Article: 66515 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: and do not forget
Date: 15 Sep 1996 14:09:14 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
[...]
>>In fact the person I am referring to spent a year in Saudi 
>>(lying about his religion) to work for them.  After all, it was 
>>money.  That is also what I have come to expect.  


>Which, of course, does not change the basic fact.  The word >"nizkor" is Hebrew.

But perhaps all this supports Giwer's claim that he is not 
an anti-semite? :>

Nele




From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 18 18:21:12 PDT 1996
Article: 66665 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: 'There Was No Longer Any Escape'
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 17:10:47 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	You have to give a lot of the credit to a real shit translation like
>most all of them.  For example, tube.  These translations have all the
>earmarks of a poor German-English dictionary.

Since you are obviously a fluent speaker of German, why don't you give here
and now a better translation?

Or are you again LYING about your abilities?

Nele

Hic Rhodos, hic salta.



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 18 18:21:13 PDT 1996
Article: 66670 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: and do not forget
Date: 15 Sep 1996 14:07:35 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>>>  	Nitskor is a German derivative word.

Oh is it?? Would you kindly inform me about its meaning. I mean I 
have never heard this word.

Nele

P.S. "tsk" is a rather strange grapheme combination for a German 
word. You would probably rather use "zk". Therefore, er, 
"Nizkor".





From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Sep 19 07:41:02 PDT 1996
Article: 66705 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Anti-Racists Control Everything
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 17:18:10 GMT
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schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>Silke is NOT the only person who has stated this.
>
>Please admit your mistake.

This is true. Although it is not possible to BUY "Mein Kampf" you won't be
thrown into prison if you possess a copy.

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Thu Sep 19 07:41:02 PDT 1996
Article: 66733 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: and do not forget
Date: Mon, 16 Sep 96 17:14:42 GMT
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yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
[Giwer]
>>  	He also insisted there was no connection between German and Yiddish.
>>  	It is amazing how far you folks will go to lie.
[...]
>Which, of course, does not change the basic fact.  The word "nizkor"
>is Hebrew.

And needless to say Giwer doesn't know any of the three languages.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Sep 20 01:15:49 PDT 1996
Article: 66968 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mike Curtis-This Bud's for you, part 2
Date: 17 Sep 1996 13:46:13 GMT
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
[...]

>	The holocaust is for kids.  

Is that why by far the most posts are by YOU?

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Fri Sep 20 12:25:32 PDT 1996
Article: 67106 of alt.revisionism
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From: Nele Abels 
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Myshkin Lies Again (so what else is new?)
Date: 15 Sep 1996 13:31:44 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	I have posted it.
>	Look it up, stupid.  

No you haven't. You're lying as usual.

Nele



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Sep 22 09:49:48 PDT 1996
Article: 155334 of control
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These cancels are issued as a service to thInternet providers not wishing
to carry articles from persons of Jewish persuasion. Sites that do not wish
to take advantage of this free service can easily can opt out of these
cancels by "aliasing out" the kikecancel pseudosite.


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Sun Sep 22 14:14:09 PDT 1996
Article: 67739 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: "Vergasungskeller" or "Gasschutzkeller"?  was  Re:Where is our german linguist?)
Date: Thu, 19 Sep 96 19:27:54 GMT
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Jean-Francois Beaulieu  wrote:

[I wrote]
>>   No problem. "Vergasungskeller" is a compound noun, which falls apart
>>into the two nouns "Vergasung" und "Keller". The meaning of "Keller"
>>should be clear. The method of qualifying the meaning of nouns by building
[...]

>  I didn't ask you to recover the question with a screen of smoke.

I didn't spread smoke, I offered a linguistically acceptable explanation to you.

> I know  that vergasung may have the sense of killing with gas. You are just trying
>  to avoid the issue by stating that this mean necessarelly 'killing people
>  in a gas chamber'. People were killed with gas during WW I also.

I didn't say that. (Why, oh why are "revisionists" never able to understand the details??)
What I have said was that "vergasen" means either a)  to transfer a substance to a
gaseous state or b) to kill a person with gas. "Vergasungskeller" means a cellar
where either act a) or b) takes place.  The contextual evidence shows that only meaning
b) is plausible.

> I'm thus perfectly able to understand why 'vergasung' exist in connection with
>  keller to described an air raid shelter back those days.

No, you obviously did NOT understand my point. (And that you don't give the reason
WHY you are "perfectly able to understand" shows only that the one spreading fog
is YOU) As I have pointed out out below (and you left that part deliberatly out), the
word "Vergasung" does not have the connotation of protection. To express this
thought you need the particle "-schutz-" as in "Luftschutzkeller", "Feuerschutz" etc.
And to give your own question back to you:

   Would you mind providing a quotation showing the usage of "Vergasungskeller" in
   the meaning put forward by you?

Or alternatively:

   Wouly you mind citing a dictionary which gives for the verb "vergasen" the meaning
   of "protecting from gas" or something like that?

> The word vanished gradually after the war, simply because chemical war was no longer a major
>  threath,  nuclear  weapons were far much a concern.

Rubbish. "Vergasen" is a word familar to every German. Protection against chemical
warfare is still an issue of much importance in today's German forces. (When I served in
the airforce,  I was trained as an NBC specialist) The gas mask is called "ABC - SCHUTZ -
Maske". The protective room is called "ABC- SCHUTZ - Raum". Also possible for
gas mask is "Gasmaske", but the important difference here is that the prefix "Ver-" misses.
This prefix means roughly "to process something using the word following".  Even you
will understand that the purpose of a protective mask or room is especially to INHIBIT
the effects of gas. Therefore "vergasen" has quite a contrary meaning than intended.

> But there's traces of it, in this russian-german military dictionnary.
>  What I asked you was to bring any german document, dealing with the delousing
>  facilities, or a newspaper, or a german book which described american gas
>  chambers, or a german report of amnisty international about death sentence,
>  anything of that kind were a gas chamber is defined with the words 'gaskeller'
>  or 'vergasungskeller' rather than 'gaskammer'.

I have given you quotations mentioned in the Duden-Dictionary which is considered
a standard dictionary by people who know about this stuff. (You don't) I have done
exactly what you asked me to do. That you prefer to ignore what I have offered instead
of dealing with my arguments only shows that you are standing on very thin ice.

> It is unbelievable, knowing
>  now that gaskeller was the word used to described an air raid shelter (in
>  connection with chemical bombardment) that a german decided suddenly to
>  write in a letter 'vergasungskeller' to describe a 'gaskammer' while there
>  was a common word for a gas chamber.

That you claim a false statement repeatedly doesn't make it truer. But what would
you think about mailing me the citation given in this "German-Russian dictionary", so
that we all can see what it really says. I must admit that I haven't seen the post, but
my news-server isn't among the best.

> All what you do is to build artificial  connection but you bring no source where
> the words 'gaskeller' or 'vergasungs keller' are used to describe a gas chamber.

Was my explanation really that difficult to understand?? Hardly. You are spreading fog.
I assume that we are of the same opinion considering the word "Gaskammer". And now
the explanation for "Vergasungskeller" (sigh): "Vergasungskeller" falls apart into the
two nouns "Vergasung" and "Kellar". This is a compound noun. Compound nouns are
commonly created out of nothing in the German language to express a thought in a
concise manner. This is a feature of the German language. You won't find all compound
nouns in all dictionaries, therfore you have to trace back their particles and to look at
the connection. This is what I am doing now: The meaning of "Kellar" should be clear.
The first particle in a two-word compound modifies the second. Therfore a "Vergasungs-
keller" is a cellar where "Vergasung" takes place.  Vergasung means either a) to turn
a substance into a gaseous state or b) to kill people with gas. I have given a source -
the Duden dictionary - which points at further sources in German literature. The contextual
evidence of the "Vergasungskeller" in question leaves no doubt that only the second
meaning of "Vergasung" can be applied. Therefore the "Vergasungskeller" in question
is a room that may also be called "Gaskammer".

I hope that you have finally understood my point. If you still have doubts, please put forward
some arguments. Don't just repeat denial after denial. (But on the other hand, we all
know perfectly well that "revisionism" exhausts itself in plain denial)

> The location of the building, underground here, hasn't any importance since
> it didn't prevent this guy  to use 'gaskammer' if he wanted to be understood.

Thank you for finally supporting my point. "Gaskammer" and "Vergasungskeller" actually
are interchangable. That the location of the room is underground is indeed of minor
importance,  and I just pointed it out to give the difference between these two words.


Nele

[posted and emailed]


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 25 07:38:41 PDT 1996
Article: 68659 of alt.revisionism
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: for the recod
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 17:36:27 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	McFly nad Ferree are both idiots.

Drunk again in public. Aren't you ashamed, Mr. Giwer?

Nele


From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 25 08:22:20 PDT 1996
Article: 31146 of alt.politics.nationalism.white
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.war,alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.culture.jewish,alt.nuke.europe
Subject: Re: Fascist Continent
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 17:34:16 GMT
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[I wrote:]
>>[...] It is futile to compare the American situation in the
>>30s with the European theatre. Hardly any historical parameter
>>concurred [...]

[Shriker]
>It is _hardly_ futile to compare Americans during the Depression
>to their European counterparts.
>Our reaction to adversity and deprivation differed markedly from
>theirs. While the Europeans typically chose to blame the other
>nation, other race and other religion for their predicament, we
>united to face it together. [...]

I have given ample reason why the historical situations in Europe
and the US cannot compared that easily. Have you reacted to any
of the aspects I have put forward? No. Have you offered any support
why the situations were identical? No. What are you doing? You
are simply re-stating the nationalist myth that "America" is better
because "Americans" stick together. Did you expand this rather
simplistic view? No. Did you put forward _anything_ that could
show that it is more than a plain propaganda myth? Of course not.

We all know perfectly well that it is an American trait to use the
large brush. But could you please at least _try_ to inform me
abouth whether you are plainly ignoring my points or whether you
have difficulties understanding them. I mean if you are not
interested in considering other people's opinions, why do you post
in a newsgroup?

>To you, it seems there is no moral difference. Help a man, kill
>a man - it's all the same thing, eh?

Of course I see a moral difference here, but I have problems
considering "morality" as a suitable measure for the purpose of
evaluating a historical setting in rational terms. I doubted
your original claim on the grounds of historiography and if you
claim validity for your statements, you should answer me in such
terms and not with some blurry pep-talk. But well, seeing morality
as a cultural constant (and of course claiming the monopoly on
the "right" morality) is an American habit too. We all remember
that US president who spoke of the "realm of evil", don't we?

>Now we have the "modern European" making excuses for, of all things,
>Nazism and WWII. We an excuse the Europeans only in the sense that
>we might pardon a mentally incompetent criminal. WWII was the final
>insult; no one respects the Europeans today, and without their
>empires they are just pathetic. You can expect this standing to
>improve only when we see practiced, in good times and bad, the
>"civilized behavior" Europe has always claimed to possess.

The "modern European" is not at all "making excuses" for Nazism and
World War II. It is simply admissable to reject an utterly primitive
pseudo-historical explanation which only serves to construct a
nationalistic concept of "American" elite. But let's rather look
closer at what you are really saying:

   You claim that Europeans blamed "the other nation, the other
   religion" for the catastrophic situation in the 30s.

   You blame other nations and other cultures for the miseries of
   World War II, just _because_ they are other nations and other
   cultures.

   You claim that the European nations were nationalist.

   Your nationalist proud of "America" is beyond any bounds.

So pray, what _is_ the difference between the Europeans in the 30s
and yourself? The European nations closed their ranks against the
"otherness" of the other nations, you close the ranks by constructing
an elitist "American" distinction. Both attitudes are completely
wrong. It seems to me that you are applying double standards here,
nothing more.

Apart from that, in contrary to you I don't see anything "great"
about empires. Exactly the ideal of ordering others around led
to the great tragedies in this century. And exactly this made the
US government in the cold war abandon all their democratic ideals
when they where allying with South American dictators agains the
"communist threat". Not to speak of the McCarthy witch-hunts.

Nele

[posted and emailed]



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 25 08:23:01 PDT 1996
Article: 44622 of alt.politics.white-power
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From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.war,alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.culture.jewish,alt.nuke.europe
Subject: Re: Fascist Continent
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 17:34:16 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
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[I wrote:]
>>[...] It is futile to compare the American situation in the
>>30s with the European theatre. Hardly any historical parameter
>>concurred [...]

[Shriker]
>It is _hardly_ futile to compare Americans during the Depression
>to their European counterparts.
>Our reaction to adversity and deprivation differed markedly from
>theirs. While the Europeans typically chose to blame the other
>nation, other race and other religion for their predicament, we
>united to face it together. [...]

I have given ample reason why the historical situations in Europe
and the US cannot compared that easily. Have you reacted to any
of the aspects I have put forward? No. Have you offered any support
why the situations were identical? No. What are you doing? You
are simply re-stating the nationalist myth that "America" is better
because "Americans" stick together. Did you expand this rather
simplistic view? No. Did you put forward _anything_ that could
show that it is more than a plain propaganda myth? Of course not.

We all know perfectly well that it is an American trait to use the
large brush. But could you please at least _try_ to inform me
abouth whether you are plainly ignoring my points or whether you
have difficulties understanding them. I mean if you are not
interested in considering other people's opinions, why do you post
in a newsgroup?

>To you, it seems there is no moral difference. Help a man, kill
>a man - it's all the same thing, eh?

Of course I see a moral difference here, but I have problems
considering "morality" as a suitable measure for the purpose of
evaluating a historical setting in rational terms. I doubted
your original claim on the grounds of historiography and if you
claim validity for your statements, you should answer me in such
terms and not with some blurry pep-talk. But well, seeing morality
as a cultural constant (and of course claiming the monopoly on
the "right" morality) is an American habit too. We all remember
that US president who spoke of the "realm of evil", don't we?

>Now we have the "modern European" making excuses for, of all things,
>Nazism and WWII. We an excuse the Europeans only in the sense that
>we might pardon a mentally incompetent criminal. WWII was the final
>insult; no one respects the Europeans today, and without their
>empires they are just pathetic. You can expect this standing to
>improve only when we see practiced, in good times and bad, the
>"civilized behavior" Europe has always claimed to possess.

The "modern European" is not at all "making excuses" for Nazism and
World War II. It is simply admissable to reject an utterly primitive
pseudo-historical explanation which only serves to construct a
nationalistic concept of "American" elite. But let's rather look
closer at what you are really saying:

   You claim that Europeans blamed "the other nation, the other
   religion" for the catastrophic situation in the 30s.

   You blame other nations and other cultures for the miseries of
   World War II, just _because_ they are other nations and other
   cultures.

   You claim that the European nations were nationalist.

   Your nationalist proud of "America" is beyond any bounds.

So pray, what _is_ the difference between the Europeans in the 30s
and yourself? The European nations closed their ranks against the
"otherness" of the other nations, you close the ranks by constructing
an elitist "American" distinction. Both attitudes are completely
wrong. It seems to me that you are applying double standards here,
nothing more.

Apart from that, in contrary to you I don't see anything "great"
about empires. Exactly the ideal of ordering others around led
to the great tragedies in this century. And exactly this made the
US government in the cold war abandon all their democratic ideals
when they where allying with South American dictators agains the
"communist threat". Not to speak of the McCarthy witch-hunts.

Nele

[posted and emailed]



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 25 08:44:18 PDT 1996
Article: 76747 of soc.culture.jewish
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!insnet.net!news.insnet.net!news.nacamar.de!nntp.zit.th-darmstadt.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.war,alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.culture.jewish,alt.nuke.europe
Subject: Re: Fascist Continent
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 17:34:16 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 85
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <51tvga$3el@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <517k1u$6j2@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <3237C11E.31FB@concentric.net> <51e25d$f4i@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <323F8FB3.788D@concentric.net>
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[I wrote:]
>>[...] It is futile to compare the American situation in the
>>30s with the European theatre. Hardly any historical parameter
>>concurred [...]

[Shriker]
>It is _hardly_ futile to compare Americans during the Depression
>to their European counterparts.
>Our reaction to adversity and deprivation differed markedly from
>theirs. While the Europeans typically chose to blame the other
>nation, other race and other religion for their predicament, we
>united to face it together. [...]

I have given ample reason why the historical situations in Europe
and the US cannot compared that easily. Have you reacted to any
of the aspects I have put forward? No. Have you offered any support
why the situations were identical? No. What are you doing? You
are simply re-stating the nationalist myth that "America" is better
because "Americans" stick together. Did you expand this rather
simplistic view? No. Did you put forward _anything_ that could
show that it is more than a plain propaganda myth? Of course not.

We all know perfectly well that it is an American trait to use the
large brush. But could you please at least _try_ to inform me
abouth whether you are plainly ignoring my points or whether you
have difficulties understanding them. I mean if you are not
interested in considering other people's opinions, why do you post
in a newsgroup?

>To you, it seems there is no moral difference. Help a man, kill
>a man - it's all the same thing, eh?

Of course I see a moral difference here, but I have problems
considering "morality" as a suitable measure for the purpose of
evaluating a historical setting in rational terms. I doubted
your original claim on the grounds of historiography and if you
claim validity for your statements, you should answer me in such
terms and not with some blurry pep-talk. But well, seeing morality
as a cultural constant (and of course claiming the monopoly on
the "right" morality) is an American habit too. We all remember
that US president who spoke of the "realm of evil", don't we?

>Now we have the "modern European" making excuses for, of all things,
>Nazism and WWII. We an excuse the Europeans only in the sense that
>we might pardon a mentally incompetent criminal. WWII was the final
>insult; no one respects the Europeans today, and without their
>empires they are just pathetic. You can expect this standing to
>improve only when we see practiced, in good times and bad, the
>"civilized behavior" Europe has always claimed to possess.

The "modern European" is not at all "making excuses" for Nazism and
World War II. It is simply admissable to reject an utterly primitive
pseudo-historical explanation which only serves to construct a
nationalistic concept of "American" elite. But let's rather look
closer at what you are really saying:

   You claim that Europeans blamed "the other nation, the other
   religion" for the catastrophic situation in the 30s.

   You blame other nations and other cultures for the miseries of
   World War II, just _because_ they are other nations and other
   cultures.

   You claim that the European nations were nationalist.

   Your nationalist proud of "America" is beyond any bounds.

So pray, what _is_ the difference between the Europeans in the 30s
and yourself? The European nations closed their ranks against the
"otherness" of the other nations, you close the ranks by constructing
an elitist "American" distinction. Both attitudes are completely
wrong. It seems to me that you are applying double standards here,
nothing more.

Apart from that, in contrary to you I don't see anything "great"
about empires. Exactly the ideal of ordering others around led
to the great tragedies in this century. And exactly this made the
US government in the cold war abandon all their democratic ideals
when they where allying with South American dictators agains the
"communist threat". Not to speak of the McCarthy witch-hunts.

Nele

[posted and emailed]



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 25 10:21:37 PDT 1996
Article: 68674 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!EU.net!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!dispatch.news.demon.net!demon!insnet.net!news.insnet.net!news.nacamar.de!nntp.zit.th-darmstadt.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.revisionism,alt.war,alt.politics.nationalism.white,soc.culture.jewish,alt.nuke.europe
Subject: Re: Fascist Continent
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 17:34:16 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 85
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <51tvga$3el@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE>
References: <517k1u$6j2@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <3237C11E.31FB@concentric.net> <51e25d$f4i@surz03fi.HRZ.Uni-Marburg.DE> <323F8FB3.788D@concentric.net>
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[I wrote:]
>>[...] It is futile to compare the American situation in the
>>30s with the European theatre. Hardly any historical parameter
>>concurred [...]

[Shriker]
>It is _hardly_ futile to compare Americans during the Depression
>to their European counterparts.
>Our reaction to adversity and deprivation differed markedly from
>theirs. While the Europeans typically chose to blame the other
>nation, other race and other religion for their predicament, we
>united to face it together. [...]

I have given ample reason why the historical situations in Europe
and the US cannot compared that easily. Have you reacted to any
of the aspects I have put forward? No. Have you offered any support
why the situations were identical? No. What are you doing? You
are simply re-stating the nationalist myth that "America" is better
because "Americans" stick together. Did you expand this rather
simplistic view? No. Did you put forward _anything_ that could
show that it is more than a plain propaganda myth? Of course not.

We all know perfectly well that it is an American trait to use the
large brush. But could you please at least _try_ to inform me
abouth whether you are plainly ignoring my points or whether you
have difficulties understanding them. I mean if you are not
interested in considering other people's opinions, why do you post
in a newsgroup?

>To you, it seems there is no moral difference. Help a man, kill
>a man - it's all the same thing, eh?

Of course I see a moral difference here, but I have problems
considering "morality" as a suitable measure for the purpose of
evaluating a historical setting in rational terms. I doubted
your original claim on the grounds of historiography and if you
claim validity for your statements, you should answer me in such
terms and not with some blurry pep-talk. But well, seeing morality
as a cultural constant (and of course claiming the monopoly on
the "right" morality) is an American habit too. We all remember
that US president who spoke of the "realm of evil", don't we?

>Now we have the "modern European" making excuses for, of all things,
>Nazism and WWII. We an excuse the Europeans only in the sense that
>we might pardon a mentally incompetent criminal. WWII was the final
>insult; no one respects the Europeans today, and without their
>empires they are just pathetic. You can expect this standing to
>improve only when we see practiced, in good times and bad, the
>"civilized behavior" Europe has always claimed to possess.

The "modern European" is not at all "making excuses" for Nazism and
World War II. It is simply admissable to reject an utterly primitive
pseudo-historical explanation which only serves to construct a
nationalistic concept of "American" elite. But let's rather look
closer at what you are really saying:

   You claim that Europeans blamed "the other nation, the other
   religion" for the catastrophic situation in the 30s.

   You blame other nations and other cultures for the miseries of
   World War II, just _because_ they are other nations and other
   cultures.

   You claim that the European nations were nationalist.

   Your nationalist proud of "America" is beyond any bounds.

So pray, what _is_ the difference between the Europeans in the 30s
and yourself? The European nations closed their ranks against the
"otherness" of the other nations, you close the ranks by constructing
an elitist "American" distinction. Both attitudes are completely
wrong. It seems to me that you are applying double standards here,
nothing more.

Apart from that, in contrary to you I don't see anything "great"
about empires. Exactly the ideal of ordering others around led
to the great tragedies in this century. And exactly this made the
US government in the cold war abandon all their democratic ideals
when they where allying with South American dictators agains the
"communist threat". Not to speak of the McCarthy witch-hunts.

Nele

[posted and emailed]



From abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de Wed Sep 25 10:21:38 PDT 1996
Article: 68697 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!unixg.ubc.ca!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!www.nntp.primenet.com!nntp.primenet.com!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!voskovec.radio.cz!nntp.zit.th-darmstadt.de!news.th-darmstadt.de!News.Uni-Marburg.DE!ps1031
From: abels@stud-mailer.uni-marburg.de (Nele Abels)
Newsgroups: alt.censorship,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.europe,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Anti-Racists Control Everything
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 96 17:31:43 GMT
Organization: Hochschulrechenzentrum der Universitaet Marburg
Lines: 12
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mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>	Germany only invaded Silesia which was part of Germany that had been given to
>Poland.  England declared war against Germany in defense of the Treaty of
>Versailles despite the excuse that it was in defense of Poland.  Had it been the
>latter they would have attacked Russia also.

Idiot Giwer strikes again. Knows nothing about geography, knows nothing about history,
comments on everything nethertheless. Messes up Silesia with the Danzig corridor.
Scientific mind? Hehehe...


Nele



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