The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people//nyms/aol/sf924.0796

From Mon Jul  1 17:50:40 PDT 1996
Article: 47502 of alt.revisionism
From: (SF924)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2:  Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: 1 Jul 1996 10:04:36 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 24
Message-ID: <4r8ltk$>
References: <4r7ron$>
Reply-To: (SF924)

Mr Giwer:

It is quite clear that you are incapable of  engaing in a cogent
discussion.  We're discussing the Nazi Holocaust of the Jews and you start
to talk about "ancient Israelites".  It boggles the mind to see your
logic.  You obviously have a serious problem with Jews.  I don't know
whether this arose from your upbringing or like Hitler, you kept losing
out to Jews in school or in the workplace and built up a resentment and
hatred.  I don't really care.

Over the last several weeks, I have attempted to gain an understanding of
the Revisionist viewpoint.  If you must know, my curiosity in this subject
was motivated by an editorial which George F. Will had written discussing
a lunch he had with Mr. Mark Weber of the IHR.  I wanted to learn for
myself whther there was any basis in your position, or as Will concluded,
you were just a bunch of zanies on the lunatic fringe, a sort of "flat
earth society".

It seems pretty clear to me that your arguments are delusional.  However,
like you, I am a strong believer in the First Amendment.  I believe that
the best way to combat your "arguments" is to put them up to scrutiny and
to refute them.  I am left with one question, and one which Will posed
which I paraphrase:  What kind of person would spend his or her life
engaging in this type of activity?   

From Thu Jul  4 07:43:23 PDT 1996
Article: 48165 of alt.revisionism
From: (SF924)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: What are your views of Jews?
Date: 3 Jul 1996 20:02:57 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <4rf1nh$>
Reply-To: (SF924)

Since all of the revisionists steadfastly deby hating Jews or advocating
killing them,  what is the revisionist view of the Jew?  What is the Jew's
place in society?  Does a Jew have rights including the right to live?  If
you were the absolute ruler of the world today, what would you do with or
to the Jews?

From Thu Jul  4 15:33:11 PDT 1996
Article: 48282 of alt.revisionism
From: (SF924)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Date: 3 Jul 1996 19:02:51 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Message-ID: <4reu6r$>
References: <>
Reply-To: (SF924)

You people do HATE.  You hate Jews, Blacks, immigrants and hispanics.

What I can't fathom is why the hell you deny it.  Hitler never denied that
he hated Jews to the core.  Hitler believed that all of society's ills lay
at the feet of the Jews.   Hitler transformed himself from a "weak-kneed
cosmopolitan" to an anti-semite.

You act like there is something wrong with hating Jews.  Are you too
ashamed to hate Jews?   

From Fri Jul  5 17:49:29 PDT 1996
Article: 48496 of alt.revisionism
From: (SF924)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: 5 Jul 1996 18:50:25 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 104
Message-ID: <4rk67h$>
References: <4rk1ov$>
Reply-To: (SF924)

In the approxiamte three weeks that I have been examining and
participating in this site, this is by far the most concrete,
comprehensive and thoughtful articulation of the Revisionist positionl. 
This posting unapoligetically and without the usual double speak appears
to put forth all of the main points behind revsionism.

                                   1.  Minimization

First, the holocaust is not a singularly evil event.  It was one evil in a
world of evils including Dresden and Hiroshima.  As the author notes,
revisionists are holocaust minimizers, not deniers.  As the author further
notes,  mistakes were made on both sides.

                                   2.  Denial of Intent to Mass Murder

The author of this posting further appears to jump on a second theme of
the Revisionists.  That is that there was never intent to mass murder or
exterminate the Jews.  All of the testimonies by perpetrators and victims
are fabrications or "group fantasies".

Perhaps 500,000 to 1 million Jews died from excessive confinement, poor
food and epidemics, there was no plan to exterminate.  There were no gas
chambers.  The extermination story is physically impossible (presumably as
shown in the Leuchter Report). 

                                   3.  The Jews Asked for it

This author further snuck this little tidbit in by his observation that
Jews just seem by nature to alienate the people they live with.

                                  4.  The Jews are Lying for their own
corrupt purposes.

Why do the Jews lie?  As the author notes, there is no business like Shoah
business.  The Holocaust is a unifying issue qhich generates big bucks. 
And we all know what those greedy Jews will do for money.  

I have come to the conclusion that it is preposterous to argue these
points on the merits with the so-called Revisionists.  The Revsionists are
propogandists and liars.  I do believe that it is necessary to point out
the motivations that the Revisionists have to lie through their teeth and
to distort history for their own purposes.

  1. The Revisionists are largely Neo-Nazis or Nazi Sympathizers.

The only people who are enamored with this so-called debate are nazi
sympathizers, like Zundel, or ultra-right wing fascists or anti-semites. 
Look at who carries this stuff:  the Stormfront web site and other
neo-Nazi websites throughout the world.  CODOH is closely associated with
the Liberty Lobby of Willis Carto, an unabashed anti-semite and Jew hater.
 Even David Irving, arguably the only legitimate historian in the
revisionist camp, is closely aligned with ultra-rightest political
elements such as the British National Front. 

I judge men by the company they keep.  All of these goups are passionately
racist and anti-semitic.

2.  Naziism is Dead, Largely casue of the Holocaust.

 Let's face it, Nazism and Adolf Hitler have a serious PR problem. 
People, other than sadistic lunatics, don't want to be associate with a
movement that mass murdered twelve million people.  People don't care
about autobahns when you are associated with genocidal murder.   Hey,
lying ain't a bad strategy when the truth hurts too much or "people can't
handle it".  Any neo-Nazi has a great incentive to lie and distort the
truth about the Holocaust. 

3.  Denying the Holocaust de-victimizes Jews and deligitimizes Israel.

Here's the third reason why the so-called Revisionists lie through their
teeth.  Nazism and anti-semitism go together like chocolate and peanut
butter.  If Matt Giwer had stood up on a street corner in Berlin in 1935
and stated that Nazism was race neutral and not anti-semitic, he would
have been shot, and justifiably so, the damn heretic.

It's pretty hard to drum up support against a people who were the victims
of a genocide.  The Jews went from world pariahs to victims.   Poor Jews,
they've suffered enough, let's leave alone.  But if the Holocaust is a
fraud, look at what those conniving Jews did, defrauding the whole world
like that.

4. Revisionism is a form of psychlogical anti-semitism.

I have formed a very strong belief over the least several weeks: the
proponents of Revisionism, i.e. the Zundels, Smiths, Webers and Ravens
know that there was a Holocaust.  Hell, they're glad there was a
Holocaust.  Too bad Hitler didn't get them all.  They hate Jews to the

Here's where Revisionism is at its most diabolical.  What better form of
cruelty and sadism is there than to literally taunt, taunt the victims of
the genocide.  And not that they are glad that someone's aunt or mother
got the gas.  But rather that it is alll a lie.  Hey you're making it up. 
It's all a group fantasy.  Your mother is alive and living in a villa in
Rio, you fucking kike.  You people really do kill these people twice.  You
are void of any decency.      


From Sat Jul  6 08:00:29 PDT 1996
Article: 48562 of alt.revisionism
From: (SF924)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Question #2:  Evidence of a Conspiracy
Date: 29 Jun 1996 16:06:30 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 5
Message-ID: <4r42c6$>
References: <>
Reply-To: (SF924)

Mr.  Morrison:

An excellent point.  You would have thought that those sneaky conniving
Jewish conspirators would have thought to plant something directly linking
the Fuhrer  

From Sat Jul  6 20:52:14 PDT 1996
Article: 48761 of alt.revisionism
From: (SF924)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re:  Khazars
Date: 6 Jul 1996 13:29:26 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
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Message-ID: <4rm7pm$>
Reply-To: (SF924)

I never have had a problem with Nazis being Nazis and publicly espousing
their vile hatred.  It's only this revisionist b.s. I find offensive.

From Tue Jul  9 07:36:47 PDT 1996
Article: 49170 of alt.revisionism
From: (SF924)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism Defined
Date: 8 Jul 1996 21:07:09 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 49
Message-ID: <4rsbbt$>
References: <4rrgl9$>
Reply-To: (SF924)

Mr Hagen:

Your remarks during this string have been very thoughtful.  I don't
believe in burning heretics either.  I will defend with my life your right
to believe anything you want.  You have no obligation to accept anything
as true or false.

But you have to come to grips with a very serious fact: no historian or 
academic, who is not also pushing a neo-Nazi or similar agenda, seems to
support your position.  The only people who seem to support your position
are those persons with a strong political or personal bias either to
rehabilitate Nazism, Hitler or facism or denounce its victims, i.e. Jews
and other lesser races.  Much of the recvisionist thinking plays on
earlier Nazi-style propoganda: i.e.  the Jews control the world.  

Until serious mainstream academics come to support your position, your
position will be viewed as part of the lunatic fringe, and justifiably so.

Further to this point, you really have to look hard at why your position
has been rejected. Your claim that unpopular opinions are never readily
accepted is intellectually lazy and smacks of self-pity.  I think the
claim of poitical correctness has similarly been overplayed.

Israel, for example, has been under stringent attack for decades by
credible and respected academics and writers.  Fear of offending the Jews
has never thwarted this criticism.  Many anti-Israel and anti-Zionists
hold important posts at major Universities throughout the world.  My
professor of international law, a Methodist from Illinois, was an ardent
critic of Israel and an anti-Zionist.  To this day, he believes that
Israel has no right to exist, yet he was a tenured professor at a major
University with a sizeable Jewish population.  He was never censored or

Why would a legitimate scholar or historian be afraid to tackle what must
surely be the greatest misrepresentation in history, the extermination of
the Jews.  I have to conclude that the reason why is simply because noone
has come forward with any credible proofs. 





From Fri Jul 12 07:00:21 PDT 1996
Article: 49806 of alt.revisionism
From: (SF924)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionism
Date: 11 Jul 1996 20:55:53 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 67
Message-ID: <4s47qp$>
Reply-To: (SF924)

  The main problem with so-called Holocaust revisionism is the extremism
of the requested revision.  It is just too outlandish and falls, for me,
into the realm of paranoid quackery of the type such as: Dwight Eisenhower
was a Communist mole; The Jews run the world out of a secret base in
Antarctica, and Hillary Clinton is an alien from outer space.

      Revisionism would seem more plausible if the only issues of debate
were whether Hitler personally ordered the "Final Solution", whether the
question was whether  6, 5 or 4 million Jews were gassed (the true tally),
or  whether the Nazis always intended Genocide or just after 1941.  This
is perhaps best put into light when considering real world examples of
historical revisionism. 

Most serious historical revisionism of which I am aware  centers on
comparatively minor side issues which surface or resolves debatable
conflicts over which reasonable minds have always differed.  For example,
it was popularly held among the intellectual left that both Alger Hiss and
the Rosenbergs were framed and were innocent.  We now know that both were
probably guilty from recently revealed Soviet archives.

Similarly, we have had to reassess Kennedy in view of his womanizing and
the severity of his illness which was kept from the public.  Did we have
to drop the bomb on Japan? This has recently been a hot topic in view of
the emergence of documents which suggest that the Japanese would have
surrendered anyway without an invasion.  Roosevelt's supposed strong ties
to the Jews was seriously put into question by Arthur Morse who attempted
to show that Roosevelt knew about the death camps.  This is another
example of legitimate histrical revisionism.

For twenty years after he left the White House, Eisenhower was viewed as a
dumb goofing golfer.  Eisenhower's reputation for "smarts" and hands on
management have been seriously reassessed more recently by historians in
his favor.  Truman is another classic example.  He went from being a
viewed as a hack machine  politician in 1952 to a revered figure.  That's
legitimate historical revisionism.

The so-called revsionism which I have seen espoused by some in this group
is  like the script in a science fiction or Oliver Stone movie.  You don't
raise reasonable issues about the Holocaust, you deny that the whole thing
ever took place, lock, stock and barrel.  You don't just debate the
numbers, you claim that there were no gas chambers and no "Final
Solution."   It was all just one big lie, a big hoax.  All the witnesses
lied, the documents and pictures  were forged, the confessing Nazis lied
to appease their captors or were tortured.  All of the Judges and lawyers
were either willing dupes or active conspirators.  You don't just revise,
you deny.

It's like not just questioning whether we should have dropped the A-Bomb,
but  claiming that it never happened.  It was a hoax by the Japanese to
elicit sympathy and U.S. aid.  The Mushroom cloud was really an inverted
tornado. That big flat area in the center of Hiroshima was a giant parking
lot built in 1935 and you have the pictures to prove it! You are like that
group of Aborigines in Australia who believed that the Appollo moon shot
was a big hoax because the moon was a God to them.  They believed that the
whole thing was staged by NASA and the moon landing films were shot in a
Hollywood studio.

By the very extremism of your position, you people reveal yourselves for
what you really are:  paranoid delusional anti-semites, cranks, crack-pots
and Nazi apologists.



From Tue Jul 16 14:01:38 PDT 1996
Article: 50761 of alt.revisionism
From: (SF924)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: David Irving
Date: 15 Jul 1996 23:22:21 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 15
Message-ID: <4sf1td$>
Reply-To: (SF924)

Mr Erlich:

Do you share David Irving's facist sympathies?

I was struck by your comment that you doubt the number of gassings but
have no such proof.   Am I to assume that you are unconvinced by Messers.
Zundel, Smith, Thomas, Raven, Weber and Moran?

I am afraid that you have made an uncomfortable deal with the devil.  You
want to be perceived as a legitimate thinker and intellectual, but you
have fallen in with bad company.  And I will resort to name calling.  I
believe that the above mentioned people are lying propogandists, fascists
and neo-Nazis.  They hate their fellow man and hold the most obsene views
on race.  They are evil.  They are the scum of the earth and frankly I
like saying so. 

From Sun Jul 21 18:36:05 PDT 1996
Article: 51934 of alt.revisionism
From: (SF924)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Call Me a Revisionist, But ...
Date: 21 Jul 1996 13:22:47 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <4stp17$>
References: <4st348$>
Reply-To: (SF924)


What planet are you on?  Get it through your head, your ideological soul
mates are nothing more than blatant, rabid anti-semites.  Trying to
divorce "revisionism", as preached by Zundel, et al,  from anti-semitism
is like trying to divorce the Klan from white sheets.  Zundel and his girl
Friday Ingrid hate Jews.  They hate Jews to the very marrow of their

Face it pal, these people don't give a damn about historical integrity. 
Their very lives revolve around hating Jews and other people they perceive
to be vermin.  They live in a world of paranoid conspiracies.  Stop
deluding yourself into thinking that there is some respectable way to
associate yourself with these people and their views and not be tarred as
a Nazi,  anti-semite or a lunatic.

You have characterized yourself as some sort of moderate on this subject. 
If you really believe that there is some need for serious dispassionate
historical revision of any of events of 1933-1945, you will never find nor
achieve it through any association with these people.  People like Smith,
Giwer, Moran, Raven, Weber, Zundel et al are Nazi sympathizers and
propogandists, plain and simple.  Their agenda is simply not yours.       

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