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Last-Modified: 1999/05/31

Q. Please turn to page 5 which you have marked as page 18.

A. This section 4 - a meeting of the heads of departments on
19 January 1940..."This concerns a modern migration of
peoples. To our regret, this matter does not usually receive
the attention of the central authorities in Berlin, owing to
a lack of understanding of the special problems in the
Generalgouvernement. The Governor General has now advised
that the plan known as the 'long range plan' (Fernplan)
which should have commenced on 15 January, was postponed,
first of all, to 1 March."

Q. Please, pass on to page 12, section 13 (your page 742).

A. This is from Frank's diary. It is a report of his
activities from 31 July 1940. It says: "Obergruppenfuehrer
Krueger advises that the deportation of the entire Jewish
community from the Generalgouvernement is now in the process
of preparation. Memoranda have already been compiled on the
manner in which the overseas operation should be carried
out. SS Brigadefuehrer Streckenbach stresses that an exact
description of the operation could not be given. In fact, so
far it is clear only that this office has received an order
to determine the number of Jews located in the entire area
which had been occupied up to that point by Germany.
According to the plan existing thus far, the Jews are to be
sent to Madagascar."

Presiding Judge: What is the date of this record?

A. 31 July 1940.

Attorney General: Please read on page 15 - your section 17.

A. Yes. "Volume 15. Working Session 1941 - January -
October. 15 January 1941. Annexure. Page 1. Report on the
Conference, dealing with the deportation of Poles and Jews
to the Generalgouvernement, in the Head Office of Security,
Berlin, on 3 January 1941. Represented at this Conference,
apart from the delegates of the Generalgouvernement (SS
Obergruppenfuehrer Krueger, Oberregierungsrat Schepers,
05Raumordning and the undersigned President Westerkamp
together with Dr. Fael of the internal administration), were
also all the offices connected with this matter: The
Reichskommissaer for Strengthening the German Nation, OKW,
OKH, the Reich Ministry of Transport, the Reich Economics
Ministry, the Inspector of the Security Police in the
Eastern areas and the delegate of the Vienna Gau (District).
SSD Gruppenfuehrer Heydrich presided. The following
conclusions were approved: (1)As regards questions of
resettling residents, the Generalgouvernement will deal
solely with the Head Office of Reich Security (RSHA), which
for its part maintains contact with all the offices in the
Reich concerned with the matter. As far as the
Generalgouvernement is concerned, there will be no separate
action by authorities of a lower rank in the Eastern areas
that have been annexed."

Q. Please pass on to page 17, your pages 66-67, a record of
a meeting of the authority of the Generalgouvernement of 16
December 1941.

A. A meeting of the Governing Body of the
Generalgouvernement in Cracow.

Q. What does Frank say?

A. These are Frank's words: "With the Jews - and this I want
to say to you openly - we must finish the matter one way or
another. The Fuehrer once observed: 'If united Jewry should
again have the  power to instigate a world war, then they
will cause a bloody sacrifice not only of the nations that
have been incited to war, but this will be the end of the
Jew in Europe.' I am aware that criticism has been voiced
concerning the many steps being taken now in the Reich
against the Jews. From the reports on the prevailing mood it
appears that attempts are being made on purpose to speak
over and again of cruelty, inflexibility and so on. I want
to ask you: First of all agree with me, before I go on now
to speak about the formula: On principle we shall have mercy
only for the German people and, apart from that, for no one
else in the world. The others also did not show any mercy
towards us. As a veteran Nazi I also have to say: If the
Jewish race in Europe continues to survive after the war,
while we shall sacrifice our life blood for the sake of
saving Europe, then the war will constitute only a partial
achievement. Therefore, as far as the Jews are concerned, I
shall behave on principle only in the expectation that they
will disappear. They must vanish. I have begun negotiations
in order to remove them towards the East. On this question a
large conference will take place in January in Berlin, to
which I shall send the State Secretary Dr. Buehler. This
conference will be held at the Head Office for Reich
Security, in the office of Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich. At
all events, a large Jewish migration will begin."

. Thank you very much. Please turn to your page 19: "The
Labour Commandos" (Arbeitseinsatz).

A. This is a discussion I copied from volume 24: "Meetings
of Heads of Principal Government Departments 1942." Fifth
working discussion of the Heads of Principal Departments,
dated 11 May 1942. This is on my page 19. Page 3: "The
Labour Commandos."  As State Secretary Dr. Buehler advises,
there is, according to the latest information, a plan to
dismantle the Jewish ghetto, to retain the Jews capable of
work, and to dispatch the remainder further to the East. The
Jews capable of working will be accommodated in a number of
large concentration camps, located in the production centre.
While at first sight this plan seems very attractive, after
a closer acquaintance with the state of affairs one can
arrive at the conclusion that with the implementation of
this programme the damage that would be caused by the
destruction of the existing forms of organization would be
many times greater than the benefits which it is expected to
derive from this measure. At all events, in my opinion, this
programme at present will not bring any relief. A further
suggestion coming from the Reich is to organize in the large
cities operations for catching residents found in the

Q. Thank you. Now, on page 20, the passage on top, from the
remarks of State Secretary Krueger.

A. This is a meeting devoted to police matters, which took
place at the Royal Hall in the Palace at Cracow on 18 June
1942. "State Secretary Krueger points to the fact that the
Jewish operation, in all its aspects, has been prepared by
the police and that its execution is merely a question of
transport. In Radom and Szenstochov it is necessary to leave
behind Jewish labourers for the munitions industry.
Obviously it will also be necessary to leave behind the
direct families of these workers, but all the others must be

Q. Kindly read the remarks of Frank on your page 21 about
the meeting for dealing with the special problems of the
Lublin district, extract 24.

A. This was a very interesting meeting.

Presiding Judge: Let the words speak for themselves.

Witness Carmel  The meeting of 4 August 1942 at Cracow, from
page 820 in Volume 20. This is from the diary. "Meeting for
discussion of the special problems of the Lublin district.
The Governor General first points out that several problems,
important to the Lublin district, require joint
consideration...He reads from the newspaper Krakauer
Zeitung, an item about the visit of Reichsfuehrer-SS Himmler
to the district of Lublin and about the instructions given
on this occasion about structural alterations. A thing like
this should not happen, that the administration of the
Generalgouvernement should learn in this way that a Reich
authority, without the knowledge of the Government
authorities in Cracow, issues orders in the area of the
Generalgouvernement...he is ready for any cooperation, but
it cannot be that he has to learn from a newspaper about any
orders of the Reich authority in one of the districts of the
Generalgouvernement. This is why he invited the
personalities responsible for Lublin to this discussion at

Q. Please continue with the following passage.

A. The next extract is on page 821: "The Lublin district
fulfills a special role in the policy of the Reich
Commissioner for Strengthening the Foundation of the German
Nation. They are planning there the erection of special
camps and places for absorbing a dense concentration of

Q. Thank you. Now let us pass to your page 24. Read from the
top, please.

A. The reference is to a meeting of the Government on   9
December 1942. From the words of the Governor General
Reichsminister Dr. Frank: "This Government and the members
of this Government have an incomparably difficult duty, and
that is to ensure free scope to enable you to do your work,
to ensure for you a united administration, to enable you
personally to stand the test so that you should not be
engulfed by the administration chaos, flowing all the time
from the Reich to members of the Government...Today we have
in the Reich an abundance of authorities, conducting a face-
to-face conflict with one another. It is quite clear that
these difficulties flowing inwards from outside find their
expression, with us in the centre, in the form of special
demands, one contradicting the other, of instructions which
deviate from one another on the part of Reich central
authorities, all of whom rely on special authority."

Q. Would you now go on to the next section?

A. "We have been deprived of not an inconsiderable labour
force from amongst the Jewish groups who had already proved
their ability. It is quite clear that it creates
difficulties for the work in progress, if in the midst of
carrying out a  programme of work for the War, comes an
order that all the Jews have to be handed over for
extermination. The responsibility for this does not fall on
the administration of the Generalgouvernement. The
instruction to destroy the Jews came from a higher
authority. We are obliged merely to reconcile ourselves to
the final outcome, and moreover can only inform the Reich
authorities that getting rid of the Jews has brought about
enormous difficulties regarding the labour force."

Attorney General: Thank you very much. Will the Court allow
me a few more minutes? We are now approaching the end.

Presiding Judge: Yes.

Attorney General: Let us take your page 26, page 7.

A. This was a working Session ("Arbeitssitzung) of 1943.

"Secret Reich Matter" - that is what it says on this
protocol. This was a working Session in the Belvedere Palace
in Warsaw on 25 January 1943. "Subject: Questions of police
and security. Governor General Dr. Frank says: Mr. State
Secretary, Mr. Krueger, you are aware that you are entitled
to implement the instructions of the Reichfuehrer SS only
after you hear from me beforehand. This has not been done in
this case. I express regret about this, that you carried out
an order of the Reichsfuehrer without giving me prior
information in accordance with the Fuehrer's command...It is
impossible, that in the sphere of police and security,
people should comply directly with the instructions of the
Reichsfuehrer while bypassing the man whom the Fuehrer
appointed here; otherwise I am completely superfluous."

@0Q. Do you know as a fact from the diary that Frank
submitted his resignation as a protest against the conduct
of the Gestapo?

A. He submitted his resignation twice in protest against
activities, but there was actually no one else...

Q. But Hitler did not accept his resignation?

A. There was no one else who could fill this key position.

Q. Please now read your page 29.

A. This is extract 30 from volume 33. "Working Sessions
1943." On this protocol, too, it says "secret." Working
Session of 31 May 1943. "Subject: The security situation in
the Generalgouvernement, Page 1. At the beginning of the
meeting the Governor General begins this consultation as
follows:"...With special pleasure I welcome Police General
SS Obergruppenfuehrer Dr. Kaltenbrunner and Deputy Minister
Dr. Lammers, Reichskabinettsrat von Stutternheim and the

State Secretary Krueger says: "The liquidation of the Jews
("Entjudung") has without doubt also brought some relief.
For the Police it was one of the most difficult tasks, very
unpleasant, but it had to be done by order of the Fuehrer
since it was essential in the European interest...The murder
of Germans in Cracow must without doubt be attributed to the
Jewish organization of the movement of young Zionists (Jung-
Zionbewegung). This organization was dispersed by the
police. According to proof in our possession this was a
matter of Jews who escaped from the ghetto, who with the aid
of a centre of forgery prepared for themselves identity
certificates (Kennkarten). Not long ago he (Krueger) again
received an order to carry out the liquidation of the Jews
("Entjudung") within a very short time. It became necessary
to remove the Jews also from the munitions industry and the
army supply enterprises, if they were not posted there
specially for a vitally important task from the point of
view of the War."

Q. Please read from the bottom of the page.

A. Thereafter he continues: "Of the Jews there remained at
work the very best forces from the physical point of view,
those who were nicknamed "Maccabees" - they were excellent
workers - and also a labour force of women concerning whom
it was found that, from a physical point of view, they were
much stronger than the Jewish men. Apart from this there was
a similar experience also at the time of the evacuation of
the Warsaw Ghetto. Incidentally this task was exceedingly

Attorney General: Please turn to page 33, about the Majdanek

Witness Carmel  This is from the diary of 1944. Extract 34
on page 32.

Presiding Judge: Mr. Hausner referred you to page 33.

Attorney General: This is page 32 at the bottom.

Witness Carmel  This is on 15 September 1944 in Cracow. A
discussion with State Secretaries Buelher and Koppe. The two
Secretaries of State present to the Governor General a
report on their fields of work. The subject of the
discussion also covers a variety of questions about the
Majdanek camp, near Lublin. Concerning this camp, as the
Governor General stresses, there is a discussion at present
going on in the world press, and an incitement campaign is
being conducted against Germany in connection with this
camp. State Secretary Dr. Buehler advises that this matter
is not known at all to the administration of the
Generalgouvernement since it never had any opportunity of
viewing what is happening inside camps such as these. Since
as a matter of fact, the camps were erected exclusively and
directly, and were being run, by the Berlin centre of the SS
and the Police, and hence for all their arrangements, their
management and all that took place in them, only the central
authorities in Berlin were responsible.

But concerning a meeting of the Government for consideration
of this subject is not called for; one must be satisfied
with this statement of fact.

The Governor General agrees with this observation and
confirms that the administration of the Generalgouvernement
and all its authorities and amongst them those of the
district of Lublin, do not bear any responsibility for the
affairs of the camp, seeing that this responsibility falls
exclusively upon the person who was the supreme commander of
the SS and police, Krueger, or upon the appropriate
authorities of the Reich."

Q. The last extract I shall ask you to read is on page 39,
page 789, from the words "We began here."

A. This is from the second portion, the statistical one. I
have here a statistical supplement. This was said at a
reception at the highest level on 2 August 1943, a reception
for speakers from the Reich, in the Royal Hall at Cracow.

Q. Who was speaking?

A. The Governor General. [Reads] "We begin here with 3.5
million Jews. Of these only a few working squads have
remained; all the rest - let us say - migrated..."

Q. Thank you very much.

 Attorney General: There is, perhaps, one other section, to
which I attach very great importance, as it is a summing-up,
and I ask for permission to read it.

Presiding Judge: Please, do.

Witness Carmel  This is the 1944 diary - extract 47, page
41, of 9 June 1944.

Attorney General: Who is the speaker?

Witness Carmel  Governor General Frank, at the end of the
38th course of a training school, that is a Nazi School.

[Reads] "...and whoever asks how long a revolution lasts is
not a revolutionary. Whoever says: Yes, I will join the
revolution, but it ought to last three years only and after
that I shall not take part any more - to this person I
reply: This is ridiculous; what do several years matter as
against the fact that the Jews have been living on the face
of the earth for 5,000 years? Do you suppose that in ten
years we could have finished with this gang?"

Q. How is "this gang" written in German - do you remember?

A. "Glauben Sie dass wir mit dieser Gesellschaft in 10
Jahren fertig geworden waeren?"

[Continues reading] "In order that we should succeed in our
war against the Jews, it was essential that we should take
possession of Poland, since here, in Poland, there was a
natural fertility of the Jewish people. It existed only here
and in no other place. Following the extermination of the
Jews of Poland, from the point of view of the essence of
their blood, the future of the Jewish people had been
totally done away with; for only here were there Jews who
had children..."

Attorney General: Thank you very much.

Presiding Judge: Dr. Servatius, do you have any questions to
the witness?

Dr. Servatius:  One question, Your Honour. [To the witness]
Was the name of Adolf Eichmann mentioned in these twenty-
nine volumes?

Witness Carmel  The name of Adolf Eichmann was not mentioned
in the twenty-nine volumes.

Dr. Servatius:  Thank you very much - I have no further

Judge Halevi:  Is that the same Frank who said in Nuremberg
"A thousand years will pass and the disgrace of these crimes
will not be removed from Germany"?

Witness Carmel  That is correct.

Q. Is this to be found in these diaries?

A. No. It was said at his trial itself. In volume 12 of the
International Military Tribunal. At any rate when he spoke
there, when he testified there, he really, if it may be put
this way, repented. The reasons are not known, and he
maintained that what had been done, this wickedness that had
been inflicted on the Poles and also on the Jews, could not
be cleansed in a thousand years. But this was already said
post factum, as he wrote in the book he published, Im
Schatten des Galgens (In the Shadow of the Gallows).

Presiding Judge: Thank you very much, Mr. Carmel. You have
concluded your testimony.

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