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Last-Modified: 1999/06/07

Q. Where did they place the woman?

A. She was lying on the floor, amongst the others.  He would
stand in this position (his hand on his hips) opposite her.
He said he wanted to see how a human being was born and
brought into the world.  The children who were born did not
survive.  They lived for an hour or an hour and a half, for
one bite of a louse would be enough, and this spelt death
for them.

Q. What happened to the women?

A. I think one of them came back home.  They were not given
any attention.

Q. What was the attitude to those men who were also in the

A. The same thing.  They worked at the cleaning up.  It can
be said that the men held out less than the women did.

Q. Why?

A. They weakened more rapidly.  Spotted typhus was
accompanied by a high temperature, and it generally affected
the brain.  The doctors said afterwards that it was called
meningitis, they went insane from it, and they collapsed and

Q. Do you remember an incident where you wanted to give
someone water?

A. That was not there - it was in another camp.

Q. When you left that place, where were you transferred to?

A. In January 1944, in the second half of January, they took
from our number a group of about thirty to thirty-five
people - those of us who at that time were still healthy -
and then, together with the Lagerfuehrer, we walked for
about three hours along the road and we came to a village
called Felixdorf.  I remember the name well.  There was a
factory building there which had already been bombed several
times.  They took us inside in order to clean a number of
halls which had remained more or less intact. They said that
a transport of men was due to arrive there that day.

In the afternoon, several freight cars arrived.  The railway
line passed by in the vicinity.  I don't remember the number
of persons - there were between five and eight hundred - who
once had been human beings.  We took them out of the freight
cars.  They were covered from head to toe with running sores
caused by the frost, their clothes were torn and threadbare,
and they were half naked.  The Lagerfuehrer would not even
allow us to bring them into the halls which we had cleaned;
we merely laid them down on the ground in the courtyard in
their dying condition.  He had told us before that we were
forbidden to give them water.  As for them - all they asked
for was a drop of water.  I came across the husband of a
girl friend of mine there.  He was a young man, but at that
stage he was on the verge of death.  The whole of his body
was one big wound.  He caught sight of me and begged me so
much for "just water" - I took his water bottle and went up
to the well in the yard.  By working the pumping handle
water could be drawn.  I thought they would not see me, but
the Lagerfuehrer saw everything.  He jumped on me, kicked my
hand, and the water bottle fell.  He said, "I told you it
was forbidden to give them water."  I could not go back to
him, for I did not have any water to give him.

Q. Where did these people come from, this group?

A. From work on fortifications.

Q. Were they all Jews?

A. They were all Jews from Hungary.

Q. How many people from this group were left?

A. When we were liberated, we enquired especially about
that, and we were told that about twenty people survived.

Q. Out of how many?

A. Approximately eight hundred.

Q. When were you liberated?

A. On 2 February 1945.

Q. By Russian soldiers?

A. By the Russians.  And I went back on foot to Budapest.  I
thought I might find my mother.

Q. Did your father remain alive?

A. Yes.

State Attorney Bach:  Thank you.

Presiding Judge: Dr. Servatius, do you have any questions?

Dr. Servatius:  No, I have no questions.

Judge Raveh:   Just one question, Mrs. Fleischmann.  How
long did you live in the house from which you were taken to
the brick factory?

Witness Fleischmann: We moved there on the last day, on the
last date when it was possible to move to a Jewish house.  I
think it was on 16 June, but I do not recall the exact date.
It was not our apartment where we lived all the time.

Presiding Judge: Who was this Lagerfuehrer whom you

Witness Fleischmann: I don't remember his name.

Q. What uniform was he wearing?

A. The uniform of the SS - the same colour, that greyish-
green, and he had the emblem of the SS, an officer.

Q. You are not familiar with the ranks?

A. No.

Presiding Judge: Thank you, Mrs. Fleischmann, you have
concluded your testimony.

State Attorney Bach:  In connection with this march, the
Court will permit me to draw Your Honours' attention to some
items of evidence that have already been submitted.  In the
Kasztner report, there is reference to this on pages 126-
128, where he says:

     "On 16 November, high-ranking German visitors arrived
     in Budapest, the head of the Waffen-SS, Generaloberst
     Juettner, who came to Budapest following an invitation
     from Becher, accompanied by Krumey and by the
     commandant of Auschwitz, SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Hoess.
     On the way from Vienna to Budapest, they witnessed the
     foot march which was full of horrors.  The corpses
     piled up on the road, the exhausted people made a very
     unpleasant impression upon the German gentlemen.  On
     arriving in Budapest, they expressed their indignation
     to Becher at what they had observed.  In the course of
     the conversation  - at which Billitz was also present -
     the commandant of Auschwitz expressed himself as being
     particularly shocked.
     "Juettner gave immediate orders to the Judenkommando
     Budapest to put a stop to the foot march.  This was on
     17 November.  On that day they managed to bring back
     about 7,500 Jews who had been put on the road.
     "Eichmann was absent at that time.  Before he left, he
     tried once again to get around the agreement on the age

     "On 13 November, he changed the orders which had been
     given by providing that all children above the age of
     ten were to be deported.  As soon as we got to know
     this, we alerted Becher, who telephoned Eichmann in my
     "At first, Eichmann did not want to admit it; he denied
     having given such an order and spoke of 'horror tales.'
     Becher threatened in the end that he would send a cable
     to Himmler, if Eichmann did not stop interfering each
     time with his functions.  This threat proved effective.
     Eichmann yielded and rescinded this order.
     "On 21 November Eichmann came back to Budapest, after a
     temporary absence, and immediately gave instructions to
     continue the foot march.  This was characteristic of
     him all along, how he wanted, at the same time, to
     prepare his defence against my anticipated protests.
     He summoned me and announced that it was not true that
     he wanted to interfere with Becher's negotiations.
     Despite that, he gave orders, after his return, that
     'additional contingents would be put on the march'
     (weitere Kontingente in Marsch gesetzt wuerden), for he
     assumed that the order halting the foot march had been
     given on the basis of the mistaken impression of 'some
     gentlemen' who were not capable of judging whether
     people who had been on the road for about seven or
     eight days could be regarded as being fit for labour or
     not.  He would be obliged to place the responsibility
     on his colleagues who carried out the order (that is to
     say, the order to stop the foot march).
     "Wisliceny, too, who had refused to accept sick Jews on
     to the German side, would be brought to a court-martial
     by him.  And then he went on:
     "I need, under any circumstances, 65,000-70,000
     Hungarian Jews.  So far, only 38,000 have been received
     at the German border.  I need at least another 20,000
     'Fortification Jews' for the south-east wall at the
     Ostmark (the eastern marches).

     "After that, he went on to discuss the 'abuse' of
     protective passports; he would attribute the
     responsibility to the consul Lutz and to Wallenberg for
     this swinish behaviour.  But he had a suggestion.  He
     would not concern himself any longer with the holders
     of these certificates, if, on our part, we would
     voluntarily place 20,000 'Fortification Jews' at his
     disposal.  Otherwise he would be forced to put all the
     Jews, without exception, on the march."

This matter of Wisliceny's refusal to accept these Jews is
discussed on page 128 of the Kasztner report.  Here
Wisliceny, in commenting on the Kasztner report (T/1116) on
page 16, says

     "Eichmann's contention, made to Kasztner, to the effect
     that he wanted to court-martial me, was correct; he
     also removed me from my post at the border.  I was told
     that I had to travel to Vienna, and Eichmann had placed
     me at Mueller's disposal.  I informed Eichmann that in
     the course of the proceedings I would have an
     opportunity of bringing to Himmler's knowledge the
     'march scandal' which violated Himmler's orders.  Then
     Eichmann waived the legal proceedings against me."

Juettner's statement has already been submitted to the Court
and was given exhibit number T/692.   Here he describes how
he went to Budapest and learned from Becher about the
"Fussmarsch," and at first he could not believe what he was
told - he did not think such a thing was possible - but
afterwards he saw these occurrences himself and was shocked.
He went to Winkelmann and asked Winkelmann to put a stop to
it.  And then Winkelmann said to him that the person
responsible was Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann.  Juettner
asked for Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann to be brought before
him, but he was not in his office, and one of his officers
there replied arrogantly that he had no authority to give
him orders.  Juettner then protested to Himmler on what he
had seen.

When Eichmann himself was questioned about this
"Fussmarsch," he answers about it on page 929.  When he was
asked how many Jews, in all, reached the border, he said:
"Mr. Superintendent, Sir, not many died,  apart from the
fact that a few died naturally; I do not think that they
were many."  He was asked: "I thought that you said
previously that this was a very sad business?"  His reply:

     "Yes, it is sad when citizens walk in this manner,
     stagger along in this fashion, is that not so, for the
     final kilometres?  I personally - I said this, Sir, in
     this conversation, that I myself did not look at such
     wretched scenes on principle, unless I received an
     order to do so."

One further document on this subject, Your Honours, document
numbered 974.  Kaltenbrunner writes to Wagner on 11 November

     "According to my information, the columns of Jewish
     marchers towards the Reich were sent off, emissaries of
     the Swiss legation followed one of the columns and
     distributed protective passports to the marching Jews
     in such large numbers that by the end of the day's
     march, most of the column had disappeared, since the
     accompanying Honved guard units honoured the protective
     passports which had been distributed.  Heil Hitler!

This is a document which was submitted to the Accused and
was given the number T/37(284).

Presiding Judge: This document will be marked T/1238.

State Attorney Bach:  The following document is our No. 221;
it, too, was submitted to the Accused and was given the
number T/37(115).  Here, again, Wagner reports the position
in Hungary, on the number of deportees, on the numbers that
Hitler had consented to set free at the request of the
Swedes, the Swiss and the Americans.  He says:

     "Our offices request that, at all events, there should
     be no more concessions over and above those made
     hitherto, and that there was no need to go beyond those
     concessions which had already been made."

Presiding Judge: This document will be marked T/1239.

State Attorney Bach:  Your Honours, our next document is our
No. 1018.  Here, von Thadden, in October 1944, writes to
Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann in Berlin and says that a
representative of the Hungarian embassy had approached him
regarding the return of an "Aryanized" Jew by the name of
Stefan Kemeny who was in the Waldsee camp.  After the word
"Waldsee," there is a question mark.  It is known that the
man is at Waldsee, and von Thadden clearly does not know
what this is, and hence he adds a question mark after the
word "Waldsee."

Presiding Judge: "Am Waldsee."

State Attorney Bach:  Yes, "Am Waldsee."  This used to
appear on all the postcards, as we have heard, and the
family approached the Hungarian Government and wrote that
this man is being held in Waldsee.  Von Thadden apparently
did not know what it meant and turned to Eichmann in this
connection. Presiding Judge: This question mark can also
refer to something else.  I would not jump to the conclusion
from this that von Thadden did not know.

Judge Halevi:  He will have to be interrogated on this
issue.  Or has he already been questioned?

State Attorney Bach:  He has already been questioned.  I do
not believe that he gave an answer on this point.  It says

     "The Hungarian legation requests, on the special
     application of the Royal Hungarian Honved (Army)
     Ministry, that the above-mentioned" - the reference is
     to Kemeny - "be released as quickly as possible.  He is
     the chief engineer at the MRRT Works, who are the
     manufacturers, first and foremost, of short-wave
     instruments for the Hungarian Air Defence.  According
     to what they maintain, Kemeny is an outstanding expert
     in the field of technology of microwaves.  As a result
     of his departure from the MRRT Works, the production of
     these instruments, which are urgently required by the
     Honved Ministry, declined substantially."
Presiding Judge: This document will be marked T/1240.

State Attorney Bach:  The reply comes in document No. 1019;
it is Guenther's reply, saying that although the application
was received on 25 October 1944, the first memorandum was
dated 29 September.  Hence he believes that, owing to the
changes that had meanwhile come about in Hungary, it should
be possible to regard this matter as settled.  He says, by
the way, seeing that this man was of Jewish origin, there
was anyhow the fear that his services in an essential war
enterprise of this kind would only be exploited for purposes
of sabotage.

Presiding Judge: This document will be marked T/1241.

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