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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/e/eichmann.adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-046-06

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Last-Modified: 1999/06/02

State Attorney Bar-Or:  He begins his statement with the
words "I know that a specially appointed Standartenfuehrer,"
he calls him Standartenfuehrer "named Eichmann dealt with
the implementation of the measures against the Jews in the
headquarters of the SIPO (Security Police), and that the
instructions about the treatment of the Jews were passed on
through him."  At the end, in the last paragraph, he
mentions the camp in Sabac, about which we heard this
morning.  However, this witness does not know details.

Judge Halevi:  Excuse me, in connection with the previous
document: Mueller, who is mentioned there, is he not the
same Mueller who was head of the Gestapo?

State Attorney Bar-Or:  It is the Mueller who was the
superior of the Accused.  It says here: "Diese Meinung hat
Mueller, der Gruppenfuehrer in Hauptstab der SIPO in
Berlin..." (this is the opinion of Mueller, the
Gruppenfuehrer in the headquarters of the SIPO in Berlin).
There is no doubt that he was the superior of the Accused.

I go on to document No. 1437.

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/895.

State Attorney Bar-Or:  The importance of this testimony (by
Teichmann) lies in the last passage on page 2.  He speaks
about the Sajmiste camp there.  He knows that it was used
for military purposes at the time of the operation on the
Kozara.  Later on the camp was used for housing Jews, whose
concentration was ordered by the military administration and
implemented by German and Serbian police.   The Jews arrived
in the camp in the autumn of 1941, and he says:

     "Among the measures taken against the Jews in the camp
     itself, I do not remember that great numbers were shot
     in the course of reprisal executions; on the other
     hand, I know that part of them were transported to the
     Eastern zones, to the area of Lodz, and part were
     suffocated in gas chambers.  I estimate the number of
     Jews killed by gassing in Sajmiste camp at 7,000
     persons, taking into consideration that part had
     already left."

This is not a reference to gas chambers.  We know from other
evidence that gas vans were sent to Serbia by the Germans,
and that these were taken into the camps, and it is about
these that he speaks here.  The 7,000 killed by gas were
killed in gas vans in Serbia.  They had been brought to
Serbia from the East.

Presiding Judge: Do we have other evidence about these vans?
Has it already been submitted?

State Attorney Bar-Or:  Yes.  If it was not submitted in the
chapter dealing with the Einsatzgruppen, it will still be
submitted.  There is evidence independent of this testimony
that five such vans were indeed sent to Serbia.

And now the examination of the SS  and Polizeifuehrer,
August Meisner, document No. 1435.
Presiding Judge: This document will be marked T/896.

State Attorney Bar-Or:  Here I should like to base myself on
the last part of the document, @95Fortsetzung der Vernehmung
(continuation of the interrogation), and I should like to
draw your attention to certain sentences.  He says here in
the continuation of his interrogation:

     "At the time when I was appointed Commander of the
     Police, there existed a section for Jews within the
     framework of the BdS, and I know that this section
     implemented the legal instructions about the procedure
     against the Jews, i.e., that it arrested the Jews."

Then he goes on to testify:

     "For the treatment of the Jews, the BdS received orders
     directly from Berlin from the head office of the SIPO.
     The BdS informed me in general terms about all the
     instructions given, so that I was informed about how
     one had to deal with the Jews."

This passage is interesting: He is the Senior Commander of
the SS and the Police, directly subject to the authority of
the Reichsfuehrer-SS, it is true, but, where the treatment
of the Jews is concerned, he receives information about
instructions given by the office of the Accused - not from
the head office, but through the BdS, who is of course one
of his subordinates.  He mentions Schefer, whom we shall
meet again, who was in the top echelon of the BdS.  He also
mentions Teichmann and Weimann from among the senior
assistants of the BdS.

The most important part is what comes next.  He says:

     "I know that Schefer informed me, I believe in 1942,
     that a special unit with a gas van had arrived in
     Sajmiste from Berlin, and that its task was to gas only
     Jews.  The vehicle was used for two months or
     thereabouts, and in it Jews were  killed by
     suffocation.  Schefer and the so-called special unit
     were under strict orders to kill only Jews in the gas
     van.  When the van with the gas chamber left Sajmiste,
     there were no Jews left there, as all of them had been
     liquidated in this way."

It should perhaps be said in parenthesis that some of these
officers sometimes put forward the peculiar defence abroad,
not only in Yugoslavia, that they had only killed Jews, a
defence which of course generally did not help them.

I should like to direct your attention also to the end,
where he says:

     "I also learned from Schefer that in 1943 a special
     unit for the burning of bodies arrived, which had the
     task of burning bodies from mass graves.  I do not
     exactly know the reason for this, but I assume that at
     that time, in the course of what he calls 'the Katyn
     campaign,' they wanted to remove all traces of mass
     murder.  I do not know the numbers of bodies which were
     burned for this reason, but I assume that Schefer (of
     the BdS) took note of them..."
And finally, document No. 1493, Aleksander Benak.  Here I
shall refrain from giving details.  Here we have a good
description by one of the Ustashi about their methods of
operating in Croatia in cooperation with the Germans.

Presiding Judge: This document is marked T/897.

State Attorney Bar-Or:  And now some documents about Croatia
and Slovenia, mostly Slovenia, after the German occupation.
First, document No. 423.

Presiding Judge: Was Slovenia an Italian occupied area?

State Attorney Bar-Or:  The Slovenian part was under Italian

Presiding Judge: As we heard?

State Attorney Bar-Or:  Yes.

Presiding Judge: All of Slovenia?

State Attorney Bar-Or:  What is called "Untersteiermark"
(Lower Styria).  They reverted to the old imperial Austrian
name of that region, and this was under German occupation.
We shall find documents about the activities of the Accused
and his assistants, mainly in Untersteiermark.  The Court
may remember letters sent to Marburg - this is not Marburg
in Germany, it is the capital of Untersteiermark, and it was
part of the Great Reich just like Austria, not an occupied
area.  This document was shown to the Accused and was
numbered T/37(162).

A letter from Heydrich to the Minister of Finance under the
marking IVB4(neu) (new).  We shall find this marking on a
number of documents - it appears after the change-over from
IVD4 to IVB4.  The date of this letter is 21 April 1941.
The Accused speaks about this document on page 2046 ff.
Heydrich writes:

     " accordance with an order from the Fuehrer, the
     settlement of the ethnic question in the areas newly
     added to the Reich in the South East has to be
     undertaken immediately.  This is mainly a matter of
     evacuating the Slovenes from those areas to Serbia.
     According to provisional figures, some 260,000 Slovenes
     are eligible for this purpose.  In order to discuss all
     questions and difficulties arising in the course of
     implementing these tasks, especially those regarding
     transport, I have called a meeting for 6 May 1941 at
     10.30 a.m. in Marburg."

A meeting in which the Accused took part.

Presiding Judge: This document will be marked T/898.

State Attorney Bar-Or:  Now we shall proceed to document No.
1080, a telegram from the Accused, following these
activities, under the marking RSHA, Berlin IVB4, dated 26
April 1941, to the representative of the office of the BdS
in Untersteiermark.  It says that "Ulrich from the SD in
Posen cannot be spared.  As commandant for the camp that is
to be established, a suitable official from the Regional
Headquarters of the Security Police in Graz who is assigned
to Section III of the relocation staff must be made
available."  Signed - Eichmann, SS Sturmbannfuehrer.

Presiding Judge: That is to say that he dealt with the
uprooting of populations at that time?

State Attorney Bar-Or:  Yes, this is correct, Your Honour.
This is actually a somewhat later period.  He started
operations of uprooting populations under IVD4.  The Court
will remember that on matters of evacuation he continued
also when it became IVB4.  Together with the concentrated
attention on the Jewish Question, he is still in charge of
evacuation operations.  Here it is a matter of deporting
Christian Slovenes from the area which has been transferred
to the Reich.

Presiding Judge: This document will be marked T/899.

State Attorney Bar-Or:  Now I shall go on to document No.
1079, a number of Regulations, or rather announcements, by
the assistants of the Accused in Marburg, Untersteiermark,
addressed to the Accused.  We shall find here, for instance,
Dr. Seidl, whom we know later from Theresienstadt, as well
as SS Standartenfuehrer Lurker.  We should also mention Dr.
Fuchs, whose testimony we have just seen, and Abromeit from
the office of the Accused.  There are several announcements
here about the expulsion of Slovenes to the Serbian and
Croatian parts of Yugoslavia, out of the Yugoslav area which
has been annexed to the Reich, out of Steiermark.  I shall
not tire you with the details in each of these documents.
For each transport there is a detailed account of how many
Slovenes were deported.  Occasionally there is one Jew,
occasionally one Gypsy.  For instance, the letter of 20 June
1941 mentions 300 persons, including 298 Slovenes, and one
Jew - as well as one Gypsy - was also included and expelled;
furthermore, the amount of bread sent along, how much jam,

Presiding Judge: Since you are mentioning this, you might
also add "two bottles of Slivovitz for the accompanying

State Attorney Bar-Or:  Sometimes expelled Slovene clergymen
are also included in these transports.  I draw special
attention to Dr. Seidl's letter to Section IVB4, attention
Eichmann, of 7 June 1941.  Here it is mentioned that SS
Sturmbannfuehrer Hoeppner is on the deportation train on his
way to its destination.  The office of Dr. Fuchs has to be
informed immediately by radio that Dr. Hoeppner will arrive
at the final station on deportation train I.  Reference must
be made in the telegram to be sent to the assignment of
Hoeppner and of Obersturmbannfuehrer Krumey.  In brackets it
says: "The last paragraph on instruction of
Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann."  I should also like to
direct attention to the letter of Standartenfuehrer Lurker,
dated 18 July 1941 from Marburg to the Accused.  He reports
that transport No. 20 left Marburg on 18 July 1941 for
Slavonska Poz and says that there are 422 Slovenes on it,
among them one priest and 28 Carmelite nuns.  Also 1,000
kilogrammes of bread.  The Slovenes have taken dinars with
them  - that appears in each report - and he asks that the
office of Sturmbannfuehrer Dr. Fuchs be informed about the
departure of deportation train No. 20.

In the various reports, one clergyman or another is
mentioned occasionally.  Here I have drawn attention to it,
because a larger number of nuns has been included in this
transport of Slovenes.

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/900.

State Attorney Bar-Or:  With your permission, I now go on to
document No. 1093, a letter on the same subject, dated 23
June 1941, from Lurker to the Accused.  Here we learn that
there was also strict customs control at the transit points
into the Yugoslav areas.

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/901.

State Attorney Bar-Or:  Now document No. 558, which brings
us to Croatia proper.  It is a Vortragsnotiz (note in
preparation for oral reporting) to the Foreign Minister,
signed by Luther on 24 July 1942.  He says, inter alia, that
the question of the attitude of the Italian Government
towards measures against the Jews was again brought up in
Agram, where it was particularly acute because of the
current preparations for the expulsion of the Jews.  Further
on he says that the expulsion can only be carried out with
German help, since difficulties are to be expected from the
Italians.  He mentions that the Italian Chief of Staff in
Mostar has declared that he could not agree to the
expulsion, since all inhabitants of Mostar had been assured
equal treatment.  The Inspector General for the German Roads
Administration (O.T.) had also reported about this.  The
Italian Chief of Staff had told him that it was
"incompatible with the honour of the Italian army to take
special measures against the Jews, such as those demanded by
the O.T. for the purpose of vacating homes for their own
urgent needs."

Presiding Judge: What is O.T.?

State Attorney Bar-Or:  It is the big work organization
Organisation Todt."

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/902.

State Attorney Bar-Or:  Document No. 87, a letter from
Klingenfuss of the Foreign Ministry to the Head Office for
Reich Security dated 16 October 1942, which quotes a
telegram from the German legation in Zagreb.  It says, inter
alia, that preparations for the expulsion of the Jews from
the territories occupied by the Italians are made by the
police attache through the secret seizure of all the Jews.
The legation requests that the Head Office for Reich
Security be informed of this.

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/903.

State Attorney Bar-Or:  Document No. 661 is a telegram from
Kasche, the German Minister in Zagreb, to the Foreign
Ministry, together with a handwritten draft (of a covering
note) by Rademacher, with which he transmits the text of the
telegram to the Accused, IVB4, in November 1942.  The
telegram itself from Agram is dated 20 November, and it says
that a reliable rumour has come from Mostar and Dubrovnik
that the concentration of Jews was being made under German
pressure.  The Italians, it says further, intend to
concentrate the Jews on several islands.  In the opinion of
the Italians, the implementation of the measures is a
delicate matter because the Jews in America, who are
assisting the Jews here (in Dalmatia) financially, have to
be taken into consideration.  Any interference by the
Croats, or their participation in the implementation or in
the seizure of Jewish property, is also being refused by the
Italians.  And Kasche of course asks that the Head Office
for Reich Security, IVB4, be informed of this.

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/904.

State Attorney Bar-Or:  I shall now go on to document No.
1046.  On 6 December 1942 Klingenfuss passes on to the
Accused a telegram received in the Foreign Ministry from
Zagreb, dated 4 December 1942.  Kasche in Zagreb requests of
course also in this case that the contents of his telegram
be brought to the attention of the RSHA, IVB4.  It is again
about the expulsion of Jews from the Mostar area in November

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/905.

State Attorney Bar-Or:  I go on to document No. 1047, again
a telegram from Minister Kasche in Zagreb to the Foreign
Ministry with the request that IVB4 be informed, in which he
says that "the Italians have taken all the Jews who have
arrived from Dubrovnik and from places in Herzegovina and
transferred them to the islands of Lopud and Brac and to the
Kupari hotel.  Kupari belongs to the Protectorate."  He says
further: "The Italians have refused the use of the Kupari
hotel for German soldiers in need of recuperation.  Jews who
are local residents were allowed to remain in Dubrovnik.
The Italians made numerous exceptions at the time of the
deportation.  Good-looking Jewesses and well-to-do Jews were
allowed to stay behind."  This apparently angered Kasche,
and he asks that the Accused be informed about it.

Presiding Judge: This will be marked T/906.

State Attorney Bar-Or:  I go on to document No. 1081, a
letter from SS Sturmbannfuehrer Helm to the Chief
Administration of Croatia.  At the top we find that a copy
of this document was sent to RSHA IVB4, for the attention of
the Accused.

It says here, in paragraph 1: "Implementation of an
immediate operation for the complete freeing of Croatia of
wholly-Jewish elements, without consideration of age, sex,
as well as religious adherence."  The writer refers in the
letter to a conversation with SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Abromeit
from the office of the Accused on 19 January 1943.

In paragraph 8 Helm writes that "SS-Hauptsturmfuehrer
Abromeit takes full responsibility for the immediate
deportation of the Jews from the Stara-Gradiska camp, once
the inmates have been registered by lists.  The deportation
train will be made available by the German Reich Railways at
the initiative of SS Hauptsturmfuehrer Abromeit."

Presiding Judge: This document will be marked T/907.

Can we still finish these documents?  If not, we shall stop

State Attorney Bar-Or:  I thought I would finish the file
this morning.  But it is not a matter of two or three

Presiding Judge: I adjourn the Session here.  As I have
announced, the next Session will take place next Monday, at
15.30.  This Session is closed.

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