The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/e/eichmann.adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-039-05

Archive/File: people/e/eichmann.adolf/transcripts/Session/Session-039-05
Last-Modified: 1999/05/28

Attorney General: I should like to say to the witness, in
his own language, that, by agreement between the Prosecution
and the Defence, we have admitted as evidence the material
included both in the judgment and in the affidavits
appearing in the transcript, and therefore, we shall not
have to question you in regard to these matters.

With the Court's permission, I shall now turn to facts which
are within the knowledge of Judge Musmanno as a result of
his judicial activity, relating to people who were able not
to carry out instructions for murder, which had no
justification. I request permission to ask questions along
these lines.

Presiding Judge: Within the ambit of the decisions we
adopted. We mentioned this subject.

Attorney General: Yes - within that ambit.

[To witness] Did any of the members of the Einsatzgruppen
complain about the work that was assigned to them?

Witness Musmanno:  Yes. Some of them complained because they
had to travel over bad roads in order to reach the Jews that
they were going to kill. And they also complained when bad
weather set in, and mud made their transportation all the
more difficult. In very cold weather, when the ground was
frozen and it was impossible to dig graves, they complained
because the executions had to be postponed until fair
weather arrived. Sometimes, they shot their victims in the
snow and let their bodies lie in the snow.

Attorney General: Permit me to be more explicit. Do you
remember the case of Walter Blume?

Presiding Judge: Was he an accused in the Einsatzgruppen
Trial too? Does this appear in the judgment?

Attorney General: I do not believe that the episode appears
in the judgment.

Presiding Judge: Or in the fourth volume?

Attorney General: As far as I am aware - no. For these were
special episodes.

Presiding Judge: In that case, you will first have to prove
that you cannot present, here, the records of that trial

Attorney General: If you wish us to bring evidence in the
form of a trial within a trial at this stage - we shall have
to do so.

Presiding Judge: That is actually the correct interpretation
of this matter.

Attorney General: Then we shall have no alternative.

Presiding Judge: You have a witness here who may be able to
say something on this subject. You have mentioned to us a
matter of 300,000 pages.

Attorney General: I will interrogate the witness, by
permission of the Court. Justice Musmanno, do you know where
the records of your case are kept now?

Witness Musmanno:  Do you mean the transcript? The daily

Q. I refer to the exhibits, and the daily record of the
proceedings of the Einsatzgruppen Trial.

A. Certainly, there is a set of them in the archives in
Washington D.C. and also in London, and I am under the
impression that perhaps also in Nuremberg.

Presiding Judge: Will you permit me? If someone wishes to
examine the record, to get to a certain witness or to
certain evidence, do you think he could practically do so,
or would it be difficult?

Witness Musmanno:  He could eventually do it, but it would
be a very tedious task. Very tedious and it would require
many labyrinthian enquiries. Certainly they do exist. But no
one could, just by merely reaching out his hand, put his
finger on it, I am afraid.

Q. How many pages does the record of the the Einsatzgruppen
Trial contain? Can you remember that?

A. Yes. The Einsatzgruppen transcript which I have in my
chambers back in Pittsburgh embraces about 22 volumes, each
one of about that thickness - that is 2 1/2 inches or 3

Q. About how many pages would that be?

A. Oh - I would say about 8,000 pages.

Dr. Servatius  Your Honour, the Presiding Judge, these
records are kept in the archives of the German Federal
Republic in Coblenz. They also have there a summary of the
contents and a list of the witnesses, for part of the
documents. Whether such a summary exists also in connection
with the trial which we are discussing here - I do not know.
But my assistant is shortly about to travel to Germany, and
through him, I shall be able to go into the matter and to
seek a reply to the question.

Attorney General: I wanted to say that, naturally, we
searched for the material, but to my regret we did not find

Presiding Judge: How long would it take you in order to
search for this material? We are talking now about the
evidence of Blume.

Attorney General: I shall list the names of those concerning
whom I want to question the Judge. We are in the same
situation concerning all of them. The names are: Walter
Blume, Erwin Schulz, Heinz Jost, Franz Six, Willy Seibert
and Gustav Noske, whose evidence I have already submitted,
but I want to put in one document through the Judge.

Presiding Judge: But not all of them were accused - some of
them were witnesses in the trial?

Attorney General: They were also witnesses in the trial. We
tried to obtain the material.

Presiding Judge: How much time did it take you? Was this
after you got to know about these documents from the

Attorney General: After we learned about it from the
witness, we examined only those documents which we ourselves
had accumulated; we searched among the material available
here relating to these matters, but the material we have
here does not include those particulars - the material which
is in our possession, with Bureau 06 and the Prosecution. I
must admit that, since then, we have not attempted to look
for the material abroad.

Presiding Judge: Thank you.

Dr. Servatius  Your Honour, the Presiding Judge, if I  may
be permitted to point to page 90 in this volume 4 which is
in my possession, there is a diagram here which was prepared
by the persons themselves, and to which - so far as one can
see - no objections were voiced. From this diagram it
clearly transpires that the Einsatzgruppen were subject
directly to the orders of Heydrich, naturally under the
supreme authority of the head of the German Police and the
SD, Himmler.

Presiding Judge: This is another subject. We are talking now
- so it seems to me - about somewhat different matters.

Mr. Hausner, we notice that in this volume - we are not
fully aware of everything contained in this volume - but,
for example, we notice that on page 593...

Attorney General: Perhaps I may have a look at it. Our copy
is in the possession of Defence Counsel.

Presiding Judge: This relates, in fact to Case No. 9. This
is the very case of the Einsatzgruppen. There is a list of
witnesses with an index to the pages of the transcript.

Attorney General: Yes, here it is. The question is - where
one can find these pages.

Judge Raveh  You have heard that the witness himself has the
complete record. This is proof that it exists.

Presiding Judge: This we can elucidate immediately. Justice
Musmanno - a side issue, if I may call it that; are you able
to tell us: Is the material in your possession, those 22
volumes, arranged in order?

Witness Musmanno:  Yes, they are arranged consecutively.

Q. In other words, with the aid of these lists, the index of
the contents and the witnesses appearing in this volume, it
would be possible to find one's way through the labyrinth of
the documents of 22 volumes and arrive at the item in its
right place?

A. Well, if the Court would permit me, I would say that the
Green volume by no means is a complete account of the trial.
It is extremely abbreviated, and there are possibly episodes
and facts which are not included therein at all.

Q. Yes, it would help us, or rather the Prosecution, if we
were to know that it would be possible, with the aid of the
list of contents, of the witnesses and the summaries, to
find in the archives in your possession- for example in
those 22 volumes - each particular reference. Possibly we
could make it much shorter! You could have a look at the
book yourself and let us have a reply.

A. It is true that the witnesses are enumerated here and
their testimony is identified by page numbers, but each
defendant presented enormous so-called "document books" and
those documents are not indexed here, so that if there is an
episode in any of these documents you might not be able to
locate it very easily.

Dr. Servatius:  It is, in fact, true that defence documents
were not, as a rule, included in the official treatment of
these trials. However, it will not be difficult to find
them, for the documents are kept in the private archives of
the defence lawyers who are still alive in Germany. And I
believe that in the political archives of the Federal
Republic, as well, it should be possible to find these
documents, by number and by classification.

Presiding Judge: Mr. Hausner, the material which you wanted
to produce now by means of this evidence, was that evidence
given before the Court or was it in the content of sworn
affidavits submitted there? Can you tell us that?

Attorney General: The truth of the matter, Your Honour, is
that I myself do not know. I can ask the Judge.

Presiding Judge: I have a suggestion to make to both
parties, and also to the witness. In a quarter of an hour's
time we shall have to adjourn. Perhaps you could take
advantage of the lunch interval in order to clarify this
question with the Judge, and that will assist us to reach a
decision in this matter?

Attorney General: Certainly, Your Honour.

Perhaps, in the meantime, merely in order to reach a
convenient point, I can submit one more document through the

Presiding Judge: Apart from that you may proceed - if you
have further questions to the witness.

Attorney General: Thank you, Your Honour.

Presiding Judge: You will be able to check whether the
evidence you are seeking relates to matters on which oral
evidence was heard in that trial, or to documents which were
submitted and are not included. The reply to this question
is likely to affect our decision.

Attorney General: Now, Justice Musmanno, you gave me an
English translation of evidence taken by you in German from
the witness Schulz. I hand you the two documents, the German
original and the English translation. Were these the
testimonies that you heard and which you handed to me?

Witness Musmanno:  I can veryfy that this document was
submitted to me in the trial of the Einsatzgruppen Case, in
its English translation.

Q. This document was submitted in support of Schulz'
contention with regard to his release from the

A. That is correct.

Presiding Judge: Who makes this declaration - Schulz

Attorney General: This is a document signed by Heydrich, in
which Heydrich writes: I am releasing you from command for
reasons of service and I am transferring you to other

Presiding Judge: Are you submitting it?

Attorney General: I am submitting them both. The Judge gave
me this one in English, and on the basis of this I
identified the German document in our possession.

Witness Musmanno:  Would you kindly explain to the Court
that the remarks written on the back of the document do not
relate to the trial?

Attorney General: Actually we do not need the English copy -
only for the purposes of identifying the German copy.

Presiding Judge: Where did you get the original German
version from?

Attorney General: We have the Book of Documents No. 1 of
Erwin Schulz.

Presiding Judge: We shall mark the English translation

Do you have further copies of this document?

Attorney General: To my regret, no.

Presiding Judge: And the German original will be T/686(a).

Attorney General: Justice Musmanno, did you talk to
Schellenberg about other Einsatzgruppen commanders as well,
who - for one reason or other - applied to be relieved of
their duties?

Witness Musmanno:  In our general conversation, reference
was made to this proposition that if one really did not want
to kill Jews that there was a way of not killing Jews, that
it wasn't necessary to follow out these orders implicitly
and to the ultimate, and that it would be enough to indicate
that this person could not kill in cold blood, and, if that
was so stated, then one could be actually relieved of that

He said he knew of his own knowledge that there were
individuals in the Einsatzgruppen organization who were
released, even by Ohlendorf and by Dr. Toms, because they
couldn't go along with the extermination programme, He
indicated - I don't know just how far he wanted to go in
this type of testimony - but he stated very clearly that
those incapable of performing these executions would be
released and sent home, because they were in the way of
others who were perfectly ready, willing and able to carry
out Hitler's orders for the extermination of the Jews. He
pointed out that the Nazi leaders couldn't generally be
accused of great human sympathy, but he said he had to admit
that they were men of efficiency, and if a man couldn't go
along with this type of an order then he should be sent back
home. And many were sent back home.

Q. Are you able to tell the Court if there was another man
named Matthias Graf, whom you acquitted of this charge, and
who walked out of your courtroom a free person?

A. Yes. Matthias Graf could not conscientiously go along
with the orders and he evaded them at every opportunity. And
I acquitted him completely.

Attorney General: With the Court's permission I shall stop
at this stage. We shall utilize the minutes remaining at our
disposal in order to hand over to the Court the information
on the additional affidavits which we intend to submit, if
the Court is prepared to hear it. My colleague, Mr. Bach,
will do this.

Presiding Judge: Judge Musmanno, we shall interrupt your
evidence now, and you may step down from the witness box.
You will be invited to return in the afternoon.

Attorney General: I understand, in order that I may receive
directives, that if it should be found that all the
remaining instances can be proved by the record of the
proceedings, the Court does not want me to  continue
examining Judge: Musmanno on these matters - in which case
it would not be necessary to bring him back to the Court.

Presiding Judge: But there is a further examination - I
shall clarify this immediately.

Dr. Servatius, do you want to cross-examine the witness, or

Dr. Servatius  There will be a few question which I should
like to put to the witness.

Judge Halevi:  Have we heard all the questions of the
examination-in-chief? You spoke about the murder of children
- we have not heard about that.

Attorney General: This is included in the body of the
judgment. Part of it is here, part is not. At any rate, I
shall go into the question.

Presiding Judge: We shall now adjourn and we shall open the
afternoon Session with the submission of this information by
you, and thereafter we shall continue with the evidence of
the witness.

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