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Archive/File: people/e/eichmann.adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-011-01
Last-Modified: 1999/05/28

Session No. 11

5 Iyar 5721 (21 April 1961)

Presiding Judge:  I declare the eleventh Session of the
trial open. The court hands down its decision, to be noted
as Decision No. 6.

It has come to our attention that there has been an abuse by
one of the photographers of the permission granted  to
photograph the proceedings of this trial. This photographer
took photographs of some of the private notes  the Accused
made for himself in the courtroom. That photographer will no
longer be permitted  to take photographs at this trial and
the aforementioned photographs will be destroyed.
Now let us continue hearing the witnesses.

Attorney General: Mr. Less, if you please.

Presiding Judge: Mr. Less, you are still testifying under

Attorney General: Mr. Less, please look at the section of
the Accused's statement  on page 402. What does it refer to,
Mr. Less?

Witness Less: It refers to a document  we submitted to him
on that occasion, as  mentioned on page 401, Exhibit T/455
(T/37 (10)).

Q. What is the general content of the document?

A. A notification from the Paris branch of the Berlin
Central Office.

Q. Thank you very much. I would request the recording of
extract, pages 402 to 404 be heard.

     Less  That is to say, current reports on this subject
     were passed on to you? To your Department?
     Eichmann  Certainly, they did not have to be current,
     since Department IVB4 was obliged, for its part, to
     report on the transport schedules, even before the
     deportation began.
     L. Then the transport was confirmed in these memoranda
     E. The official authorities.
     L. The official authorities abroad?
     E. Actually not every single transport was approved,
     that was not the situation, but on the conclusion of
     the operation they reported on it through service
     channels, in the form of a report; they never reported
     individual cases, but each time they reported the
     operation as a whole. But here there was a notification
     of a special transport, evidently because of the remark
     below concerning the brother of Leon Blum.
     L. What is the meaning of "The class of people included
     was in accordance with the directives we were given?"
     What directives?
     E. These were the directives  the Reichsfuehrer  issued
     for implementing the evacuation. I have already had the
     opportunity of dealing [with this matter] right to its
     end, Captain; regarding Hungary, for example, "this
     person or that person," the age limits (Altersgrenze03)
     and so on.
     In this way there existed, in the case of - today I do
     not know, I presume - in the case of each country,
     various directives, because the Foreign Ministry had to
     give its approval to these directives. If the Foreign
     Ministry imposed its veto, in the other countries of
     Europe, of course,then...
     L. But it seems to me as if in this remark, and in this
     case the memorandum was addressed to you, the reference
     was to directives which were issued by your Department.
     E. Obviously, for we had to issue the directive,
     Captain, for we on our part obtained these directives,
     we requested them, either from the Chief of the
     Security Police and the SD or from Himmler, and then we
     had to pass them on, since it wasn't Himmler who gave
     these directives to Paris and the Hague, but us.
     L. Very well, what do these directives say?

     E. Captain, the instructions they laid down in an
     individual case, regarding France and regarding
     Holland, the age limits. etc. - this I would not be
     able to give you exactly.
     L. What about Holland?
     E. The age limits; in Hungary I can give them
     precisely, the age limit, fitness for work, the
     allocation for maintenance...
     L. Allow me - you say "fitness for work" I assume that
     fitness for work was determined by the commanders of
     the concentration camps?
     E. Yes, yes, in Hungary, it was then only permitted to
     send fit persons to work; and this actually began at
     the time when the whole matter was stopped.
     I have said all this, Captain, not only now, when I am
     - I would say - I am impelled to do so, I dealt with
     this right to the end a few days ago.
     L. Very well, what were the further instructions?
     E. I believe that afterwards, it said in general
     "Any excesses which can be avoided should be avoided"
     and that was the end of the matter. The Reichsfuehrer
     ordered "with children" or "without children," "without
     taking into account age-limits"...and in these...these
     were not observed for a very long time, these

     L. Was it also mentioned in the directives "when there
     is an attempted escape, arms should be used?"

     E. No, this I don't know, I do not know. Possibly, if
     you please, in these many transports - please I talk
     from experience when I say, not only in regard to
     Jewish affairs but in regard to so many transports,
     hundreds of them were carried out there, if not
     thousands - there were attempts at escape, some of them
     successful. Then the escorting guards became very busy,
     but if it said there "when there is an attempted
     escape, arms should be used" I cannot imagine it was
     so, I cannot imagine it.
     In Hungary, in Hungary this did not happen; in Hungary
     I know this with absolute certainty that they never
     went so far as to use arms when there were attempts at
     escape, this I do not believe, this I do not believe, I
     definitely do not believe it, no! This I certainly do
     not believe. In some case or other -  so that I should
     not, Heaven forbid, utter a lie, it might have been
     possible, that in some case or other, somehow, the
     clause with the addition was added -  but I myself
     cannot imagine this, I do not see, even today I am not
     convinced that the necessity arose, that things went so

Presiding Judge: What is "the clause with the addition?"

Interpreter:  An additional clause. In German Zusatz.

Attorney General: The reference is to the use of arms. The
additional clause of the directive.

Let us now hear the recording of tape No.9 on page 408,
beginning with the words "Sie entsinnen sich..."

     Less  Do you still remember the Wannsee Conference? We
     shall yet have to go into details.
     Eichmann  Yes, certainly.
     L. At any rate, I presume you were present at the
     E. Yes, certainly. I even had to write by myself the
     invitations to the Secretaries of State, that is to
     say, Heydrich told me briefly how he wanted this to be
     L. Why were you invited to this Wannsee Conference, at
     a time when you had such a minor position?
     E. Captain, I had to write the invitations. It was
     incumbent upon was incumbent upon me to supply
     Heydrich with the data for the speech he delivered, all
     the emigration figures and all that. This is what I had
     to give him, this was what he demanded of me; after all
     I was head of the Department at the Secret State
     Police, although not head of the Department of the Head
     Office for Administration and Economy.
     L. Was Mueller also present?
     E. Mueller was also present, yes certainly, this was a
     conference they used to say then, "at a high
     level," namely only Secretaries of State.
     L. Why did they bring into the circle little Eichmann?
     Just because he was head of a Department?
     E. I was head of the Deparment and obviously I had to
     be present, Captain. There was no possiblilty of my
     speaking there, for instance, Captain, or to be
     prominent in some way in the affairs of the Wannsee
     Conference, in the various matters of the Secretaries
     of State. Not in a single case did I discuss these
     affairs with any Secretary of State.
     L. Wouldn't it have been the normal way for Mueller to
     have said to you:
     "Eichmann, please prepare the material, so that it can
     be   on hand if I should be asked to give a report on
     it? And Eichmann would have produced the material."
     E. No, it was Heydrich who demanded this of me, this I
     have already said, Captain. Heydrich demanded this of

     L.So you prepared the material for Heydrich, but surely
     wouldn't Heydrich have asked you during the Conference
     from time to time, if what he was saying was correct?
     E. No, he demanded this of me beforehand, exactly as I
     have twice...yes, matters of emigration, since the
     Wannsee Conference was only the beginning of the actual
     killing business, is that not so?
     L.Yes, officially, there had already been killings
     E. Yes, but 1941...
     L. Are you maintaing that in 1941, roughly about
     November, at Auschwitz they were already operating
     these installations of killing by gas?
     E. Yes, certainly, yes certainly, correct. The Wannsee
     Conference was in 1942, but now, how could it have been
     a conference of authorization, that is to say a
     conference of authorization, a conference in which
     Heydrich made an announcement concerning his
     authorization. If they had already exterminated, as in
     fact they had done, for I reported on this to Mueller
     after 1941, after the outbreak of the war with Russia,
     I am now thinking...what was it, very well this was
     evidently...a much stricter organization and things of
     that kind - he was in fact appointed by Goering; until
     then the difficulties had been too great, there were
     too many central authorities.
     L.I see in the fact that they invited you and brought
     you to the Wannsee Conference more than a hint of the
     fact that in this objective, the solution of the Jewish
     Question by extermination, you were entrusted with a
     slightly more prominent role than you are ready to
     E. No, no, Captain, I would have acknowledged this, I
     would have acknowledged this without any further
     [hesitation], but everyone who knew me knew actually,
     after all, who I was; I was all the time the head of
     the Department in Office IVB4 - and the head of a
     Department of the Secret State Police could not - in no
     way could he go beyond the limits to which he was
     confined, this was not possible at all.
     L.Was it normal at far-reaching conferences of this
     type, where men of the top echelons met, to invite the
     junior officials as well?
     E. Yes.
     L. Was this customary?
     E. Yes, yes, it was so, this happened not only with us,
     but also with every department head...
     L. You were not entitled to speak?
     E. No, they were not entitled to speak, no, no, they
     did not have this right; if you please I was even
     ordered to be in Ljubljana or in Zagreb, I imagine this
     was it, I was ordered to come there, where Heydrich
     delivered a policy speech in regard to the deportation
     of the Slovenes, I myself had nothig to do with the
     deportation of Slovenes, except for the fact, as I
     believe, that I was also obliged to prepare the
     transport charts, and that was all.

Attorney General: Mr. Less, on page 413, before the extract
that I intend to play, beginning with your question "Ich
werde vielleicht so fragen" - what is this about?

Witness Less: This was a general question, a continuation as
regards the directives.

Attorney General: I would request the section from the
middle of page 413 until the middle of page 414 be played

Less:  Very well. Perhaps I could put my question this way:
In what way were the directives in regard to the Reich
different from those applying to the occupied areas, in the
West and the East, and to the countries which were Allies
[of the Reich]. And, in speaking now about directives, I am
not referring to the directives given by you to your
representatives in these various areas.

     E. Captain, this was the main - actually this was
     generally the reason that applied to those
     people...from the Western [areas] the areas of the
     Generalgouvernement, but not, not also in the occupied
     parts of Russia, was there...such a thing did not
     exist. The the...implementation...was firstly the
     efforts to carry out the deportation.
     L. Were these the directives which those people
     E. This was - it was - a general instruction, this was
     in general the basis, this was Himmler's instruction.
     And so, first of all, there was a need, in these
     countries, Captain,  - for a legal create a
     legal basis, on the basis...or by means of a
     regulation, or with the aid of orders, on the basis of
     which the deportation would be carried out at all. And
     here, those people such as Dannecker and such as - such
     as Wisliceny and so on....they, together with other
     members of the staff, under the local authority of the
     commander, or Wisliceny, together with the remaining
     members of the embassy staff, had to dig up and
     discover what could be considered here. For as long as
     it was not legal... on a legal basis, how can I put it
     - not a legal basis...
     L. Correct - that is obvious - as you have already said
     a few times, but - the directives which were given to
     those representatives by your office, or by your
     section, by your Department IVB4, were they not...

     E. Now we are coming to it - yes, yes...
     L. I can understand that you will say, or that you
     intend to say that what we are talking of are...these
     directives. The directives were that the
     representatives would get in touch with the
     authorities, on the spot, so that they should inform
     them how many persons to supply for the transport...
     E. Yes.
     L. So that you could proceed...
     E. Yes.
     L. What were the directives?...This is what I mean.
     E. Now, on the basis of that fact, came...that is to
     say if the place were ready for it that it would,
     accordingly, make the evacuation possible. Then came
     the directives for carrying out the evacuation - and
     there were various, frequent occasions according to
     what the Reichsfuehrer, in other words, Himmler, had
     determined, and as an example...
     L. Were the directives different for the different
     E. For the different areas, yes.

Attorney General: Mr. Less, in the section beginning on page
699, at the bottom, there is reference to a document   T/439
(T/37 (32)). Did you produce this document?

Witness Less:  Yes.

Attorney General: And did you read the document?

Witness Less:  I read the document out aloud.

Attorney General: And you also did the same in many other
places. You read the document and what did you ask the
Accused to do?

Witness Less: Whether he wanted to make any comments.

Attorney General: Thank you. I would ask you to play back
the section on page 699, from the words "Ich zeige Ihnen

     Less:  I now show you photocopy No. 20 - marked June
     8, 1960, from Paris (Exhibit T/439 (T/37 (32)). As I
     see, this is a file - Paris, 21 July 1942. Is the
     signature Dannecker's?
     Eichmann  Yes.
     L. Re: Deportation of Jews.
     (1) Memorandum

     On 20 July 1942 we received a telephone call from
     Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann and SS Obersturmfuehrer
     Novak from the RSHA IVB4. With Obersturmbannfuehrer
     Eichmann we discussed the deportation of the children.
     He decided that as soon as a transport to the area of
     the Generalgouvernement would again be possible,
     transports of children could roll. SS Obersturmfuehrer
     Novak promised to make possible at the end of August or
     the beginning of September six transports to the area
     of the Generalgouvernement, and these could include
     Jews of all kinds (also persons unfit for work and
     elderly Jews) SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Eichmann had
     received advice that at that time only ten transports
     would be possible and that even these were not
     definite, and that it was...that there were contacts
     pending with the French Government in connection with
     arrests of additional Jews. With regard to the
     transport from Bordeaux which had been cancelled, it
     was explained that in consequence of the promise given
     by SS Standartenfuehrer Dr. Knochen to the chief of the
     French Police Bousquet to take for the present only
     stateless Jews, a completely new situation had arisen
     without any  action on our part (ohne hiesiges Zutun)
     which upset the whole arrangement.
     (2)For the information of SS Obersturmfuehrer Roethke.
     (3) For the information and the records of SS
     Untersturmfuehrer Heinrichson.
     E. Yes.
     L. Do you want to say anything regarding this?
     E. I now remember in regard to the children, I remember
     that I heard about it. This decision in principle for
     those children was made by Himmler personally. The
     question was submitted from the Reich Security Office
     through Gruppenfuehrer Mueller, that this was the state
     of affairs and instructions were sought how to act, and
     this matter was not settled, not by Mueller and was not
     even settled by the Chief of the Security Police and
     the SD, but was brought before Himmler, and Himmler
     then decreed: "to transport." I now remember, when
     I...Captain, a few days ago I...when there was some
     question of children.
     L. Regarding the Grand Mufti?
     E. Right, yes, then I, it seems to me, I said that I
     remember some question of children, but that was not it
     - that's it, that's it - yes. On this point Himmler
     gave instructions personally.
     L. Did this decision have any connection with the
     "technical questions of the transport," the fate of
     4,000 children, who were sent to an extermination camp?
     E. Yes, Captain, in this case with the directives to
     carry out transports, since these were the...the office
     of the Commander....He had to furnish them with
     directives and I had to obtain these directives for
     myself. These had to be obtained by the Department.
     L. Are you willing to sign the document for the purpose
     of identification?

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