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Accused:  Having read in Reitlinger that between 10 and 22 August
1942, forty thousand Jews were dealt with in this way in
Lemberg, and because I have also read that the first part of
the Reinhardt Operation ended on 28 October 1942, I would
conclude - and I believe that this is extremely accurate -
that the visit I received instructions to make to Lublin,
must have taken place at that time.

These are the four official journeys I was instructed to
make, and during which I came into direct contact with the
extermination of the Jews.  I came into contact against my
will - I had to obey, I had to do it.  I cannot state
anything further on this matter.

Dr. Servatius:  Was there any written order indicating the
destruction, and ordering it?

Accused:    I never saw any written order.

Dr. Servatius:  But, as far as I remember, in his testimony
Wisliceny stated that you showed him such an order.

Accused:    No, even Heydrich told me of it by word of
mouth, and he gave his order orally.  Neither in my files,
nor in a safe - I myself did not even have a safe, but I
believe that there was a safe in the anteroom - nor anywhere
else in my office then was there any form of written order
which made reference to this matter.

Dr. Servatius:  You have said that you know nothing about
Guenther's activities with regard to obtaining gas, and the
journeys which he made apparently in that connection to Dr.
Grawitz and those other euthanasia people - how could
Guenther undertake such a thing without your being aware of

Accused:    I have already said that this matter with
Gerstein must also have been part of a special assignment
from Mueller.  Without my knowing about it...nothing would
have stopped me from testifying to this fact, just as I have
also testified about these four official journeys which I
had to make on orders, without my being put under pressure
in this connection.  I must correct myself - the reference
to "in this connection" does not refer...I did not choose my
words properly, because the impression might arise that in
other matters I had been put under pressure.  I should like
to correct what I said - in no instance was I put under

Dr. Servatius:  Witness, the numbers of persons who perished
there - can you give us some indication about this?  First
question: Did you on each occasion receive reports as to the
people who were delivered, and were reports received by you
as to who was exterminated?

Accused:    At that time my Section had fairly accurate
statistical documentation about the persons evacuated.
However, my Section did not have a single document available
about the things which subsequently happened in the
concentration camps and elsewhere.  And this was also the
reason why, when the statistician Korherr appeared at my
office and asked for documents, he had to get them from
elsewhere, because I did not have them in my Section.  Nor
was I aware of any.

Dr. Servatius:  On the basis of these reports as to the
transports carried out, is it not possible to make an
estimate of the numbers of persons who perished there?

Accused:    I do not believe that it is possible to make an
estimate here - in any case today I am totally unable to say
anything which would be even half-way reliable - these are
all figures which would simply be recited at random, without
any sound basis.  I am also not aware of how this
statistical report must have been drawn up for Himmler, how
Korherr obtained these figures - I do not know.  It must
have been through the Economic-Administrative Head Office,
but I do not know anything in detail, and I did not deal
with this at that time.

Dr. Servatius:  But in his testimony, Hoettl stated that you
gave him various figures.  You are familiar with his
statement.  Would you please comment.

Accused:    If Hoettl is here using figures, I must comment
that no one received such figures from me, because I myself
had none.  In this connection it is odd that everyone claims
to have received figures from me - one person says it was
five million, the other six million, and as far as his
concentration camp was concerned, Hoess talks of two and a
half million.  I am supposed to have given this figure to
Gluecks.  But I did not know of these figures - Gluecks is
the person who was first and foremost aware of them, not I.
So how am I supposed to have provided Gluecks' superior with
the figures of Jews who were killed in the Auschwitz
concentration camp?  This is all idle talk which was bandied
about at Nuremberg, or wherever.  I did not give any such
figures, for the simple reason that I did not have them.

In addition, with regard to the question about Hoettl, I
should like to say the following.  I seem to remember that
in this connection Hoettl also referred to someone telling
him of a statistical report which was intended for Himmler.
And here I should like to say that this business of the
statistical report...there was just one such statistical
report, as far as I am aware, around the turn of the year
1942-1942.  But subsequently Department IV - that is to say,
Section IVB4 - had to produce a monthly report on the number
of Jews deported during the month in question, a report to
the Chief of Department IV, who passed it on through
official channels through the Chief of the Security Police
and the Security Service to Himmler.

Dr. Servatius:  I turn now to exhibit T/1359.

Judge Halevi:  Excuse me, Dr. Servatius, I have a question
about the last document you mentioned, No. 1357, on page 15.
Perhaps you might want to ask the Accused about this, about
the question at the bottom of the page, the question put by
Dr. Merkel, and Hoess' answer.

Dr. Servatius:  Merkel is here asking, "How do you explain"
- previously he had said that the treatment of prisoners was
exclusively in the hands of the Economic-Administrative Head

"Hoess says, 'That is so.'  How, then, do you explain the
fact that you nevertheless had discussions with Mueller on
various questions which concerned the concentration camps?"

"Answer: 'The Head Office for Reich Security or Department
IV had executive power for all deliveries of prisoners,
their subsequent allocation into the various camp levels 1,
2 and 3, as well as the punishments which the Head Office
for Reich Security had to carry out.  Moreover, executions
and further accommodation of special prisoners and all
resulting questions came through the Head Office for Reich
Security or Department IV'."

Do you have the statement before you?  It is Hoess'

Presiding Judge: No, that was not the question; the question
relates, of course, to the substance of the matter.  It has
not yet been asked.

Accused:    I do not have the document before me, but I have
understood the question.

[The document is handed to the Accused.]

Dr. Servatius:  Witness, do you wish to comment?

Accused:    On the basis of my own knowledge, I myself can
hardly comment on this, as I had nothing to do with these
executive matters, but here in my file I have document No.
175 which has, I believe, already been discussed twice, and
this concerns such executive matters as escape by prisoners,
cases of death, punishment by whipping, and so on, and there
are specific rules here as to the appropriate channel to be
followed.  And here, for example, precisely because there is
a reference here to the division into different camp levels,
it says here: "Above all, at Stage 3, there is no question
of applying to the Head Office for Reich Security or the
Reich Criminal Police; this is to be decided from here."

I can but refer once again to the documents which I have
seen here during my studies, but I do not know anything from
my own knowledge at the time, and cannot say anything about
this either.

For the sake of completeness I should like to add that I do
know that Gluecks and Mueller spent a great deal of time
together, and I would tend to assume that these matters were
dealt with, and discussed by the two of them.  As I have
said, this is an assumption; I was never present at such

Dr. Servatius:  The next exhibit is T/1359, document No.
731.  This is a communication from the Head Office for Reich
Security, Section IVC2, to various police offices, dated 10
July 1942.  The following instructions are given with regard
to female prisoners:

     "A special division for female prisoners has been
     established at Auschwitz concentration camp.  On
     instructions from the Head Office for Reich Security,
     female prisoners are therefore to be sent to that

The next exhibit is T/1251 - this is a report - document No.
506 - about a conference of the Advisers on Jewish Affairs
of the German missions in Europe - held at Krumhuebel on 3
and 4 April 1944.

Judge Raveh:   Mr. Hausner, you promised to make further
copies available.  We - at least I - have not yet received
one.  This is the Krumhuebel conference or the Krumhuebel

Attorney General: Here it is.

Dr. Servatius:  Dr. Six, who was examined as a witness and
was destined for the special London commando and also the
Moscow one, appears here as the chairman of this conference.
In his statement, he indicated that it would not have been
difficult to avoid unpleasant orders, and that he tried to
do so with success.  This is the reason why I am referring
to this document, because this successful attempt to avoid
such matters meant his presiding over this conference.  At
the beginning it says here, "Welcome by Ambassador Professor
Dr. Six, who passes the chair to Ambassador Schleier..."  It
is not quite clear whether he makes the comments which
follow - apparently he does, and in his opening address he
talks about the tasks and aims of anti-Jewish operations

Presiding Judge: That must have been Ambassador Schleier,
who is mentioned immediately after this - he receives his
authority from Six.

Dr. Servatius:  Of particular importance here is page 3 -
what the conference is dealing with.  Each participant
presents a paper.  Mr. von Thadden speaks on "the political
situation of Jews in Europe and the situation with regard to
anti-Jewish executive measures."

Presiding Judge: On page 2 you have Dr. Six' ipsissima

Dr. Servatius:  In the second paragraph it says: "Ambassador
Six then speaks about the political structure of world
Jewry..." and then in the middle it says: "... Jewry in
Europe has finished playing both its biological and its
political role."  Then at the bottom of the page:
"...Ambassador Six then turns to Zionism.  Zionism means
bringing back all Jews to their homeland and their country
of origin, Palestine.  There they are to be united
politically and biologically.  But he says that the entire
question of a return is politically overshadowed by the Arab

I have already quoted from page 3: "Mr. von Thadden talks
about the political situation of Jews in Europe and the
situation with regard to anti-Jewish executive measures,"
and then at the bottom it says: "Since secrecy is to be
observed in respect of the details presented by the
specialist officers about the situation with regard to anti-
Jewish executive measures, these were not recorded in the

Exhibit T/1384, document No. 1106, is an affidavit by Pohl
dated 2 April 1947.  Under point 2 he says:

     "I was personally acquainted with SS Gruppenfuehrer
     Lieutenant General of Police Globocnik, and had
     dealings with him in his capacity as SS and Police
     Leader.  He set up the Lublin concentration camp.  On
     one occasion Globocnik spoke of cleaning up the Lublin
     area for settlement purposes, and he made reference to
     the settlers' community which he intended to establish.
     Himmler entrusted him with the assignment of carrying
     out the programme against the Jews known as the
     Reinhard Operation."

I shall omit a whole series of exhibits and just mention
three short documents which deal with transport matters. The
first is T/1284, document No. 1373.

Presiding Judge: Dr. Servatius, this does not appear in your
lists, does it?

Dr. Servatius:  It is quite possible that this document was
not included in the list, being in French - it is a reprint
of a newspaper article from a Romanian newspaper, reporting
on a transport conference dealing with the deportation of
six hundred thousand Jews from Romanian territory.  I am
referring to this document because it is signed Klemm,
showing that the railway administration is organizing this
matter.  This exhibit links up with the next one, T/251,
document No. 1253.

On 28 July 1942, Dr. Engineer Ganzenmueller of the Reich
Railways in the Generalgouvernement notifies SS
Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf of something about these transports.
Obergruppenfuehrer Wolf is a member of Himmler's personal
staff.  The document shows who has arranged for these
transports.  It reads as follows:

     "With reference to our telephone conversation of 16
     July, I would inform you of the following notification
     from my Directorate General for Eastern Railways
     (Gedob) in Cracow for your information: `Since 22 July
     every day a train, with five thousand Jews per train,
     travels from Warsaw via Malkinia to Treblinka, as well
     as a train twice a week with five thousand Jews from
     Przemysl to Belzec.  Gedob is in permanent contact with
     the Security Service in Cracow.  The Security Service
     agrees that transports from Warsaw via Lublin to
     Sobibor (near Lublin) should be cancelled, as long as
     reconstruction of this route makes such transports
     impossible (about October 1942).'  The trains were
     co-ordinated with the Senior Commander of the Security
     Police in the Generalgouvernement.  The SS and Police
     Leader of the Lublin District, SS Brigadefuehrer
     Globocnik, is aware of the situation."

The last document in that regard is T/252, document No.
1537.  This is the reply by SS Obersturmbannfuehrer Wolf, to
whom reference has already been made, to Director General
Ganzenmueller.  This is the Wolf with whom Eichmann had had
a disagreement.  If I am not mistaken, this was because he
was not prepared to carry out more lenient orders, or
something of that sort.  I shall read out what he writes

     "I thank you warmly for your letter of 28 July 1942,
     also on behalf of the Reichsfuehrer-SS.  I was
     particularly happy to see from your report that for the
     last two weeks one train a day has left for Treblinka,
     carrying five thousand members of the Chosen Race on
     each occasion, thus enabling us to carry out this
     movement of population at an accelerated pace.  I have
     been in contact with the various departments involved,
     and it would appear that all the measures will be
     implemented smoothly.  I should like to thank you again
     for your efforts in this matter, and would like, at the
     same time, to ask you to continue to devote your
     attention to these matters.  Best wishes and Heil
     Hitler, Wolf."
Your Honour, this brings me to the end of this chapter -
submission of documents and discussing them with the
Accused.  tomorrow I wish to comment on the various records
of hearings of witnesses abroad, and to ask some questions
of the Accused with regard to such records, as well as a few
basic questions.  However, this will not take a great deal
of time.

Presiding Judge: Thank you very much.

After the end of the direct examination, we shall announce
the reasons for our decision on the Sassen Documents, and
after that it should be possible to commence the cross-
examination of the Accused already during tomorrow's

The next Session will be at 8.30 tomorrow morning.

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