The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 1999/06/07

Q. Mr. Gutman, while you were in hospital, did you see
people being marched off to the gas chambers in Majdanek?

A. Yes, this happened once.  I heard some noise, and whoever
could stand on his legs jumped out of bed and ran to the
windows.  All this only lasted a few seconds, for we were
chased back at once and not allowed to watch.  I saw this
march of naked people.  Amongst them I noticed a boy - I
don't know how old the boy was, perhaps ten years old.  I
saw that this boy was holding in his hands, on his arms, a
child who was younger still.  And I saw two SS brutes - one
was pointing at the scene to the other and laughing.  I
would like to say that there were moments like this when I
tried to gaze into their eyes, to look stealthily, since to
glance directly was too dangerous.  I wanted to see whether
they showed any trace of scruples, of mental anguish,
whether there was any spark of humanity in their eyes.  And
I constantly encountered the very same experience.  Whenever
we grieved - they were rejoicing; whenever they were able to
maltreat us - they laughed, they were drunk with blood.

Q. Mr. Gutman, when you left the hospital, you were in a
totally debilitated physical condition, is that correct?

A. Yes, they told me so - I was told this by a Slovakian
Jew.  The first Jews to reach Majdanek were those from
Slovakia and Czechoslovakia.  When I was there, they told me
that ten thousand of them had arrived there; and, of these,
there remained perhaps one hundred, perhaps two hundred.  I
don't know...

Presiding Judge: Mr. Gutman, please pay attention to the
Attorney General's questions.

Attorney General: What happened to the others?

Witness Gutman:   They either died or became weakened and
were taken to the gas chambers or shot.  The Stubendienst
there, that is to say, the man responsible for the ward in
the hospital, told me  that I had to leave as soon as my
temperature went down.

Q. Mr. Gutman, did you come across Dr. Yitzhak Schiper

A. Yes.

Q. Was he the well-known historian?

A. Yes.

Q. In what circumstances did you find him?

A. I saw Yitzhak Schiper after I returned from hospital.

Q. Just give us a brief description, Mr. Gutman, because I
want to ask you some further questions.

A. I saw him sitting near the kitchen peeling rotten
potatoes or turnips.  I went up to him and reminded him that
I had studied under him at one of the ghetto seminars, the
underground seminar of my movement.  And he said only this -
that he was well, and that they had allowed him to sit there
and to do this work that he was doing, since he felt that
if, one day, he were obliged to stand on his feet, that
would be his last day.

Q. Mr. Gutman, where in Majdanek could people perform their
bodily functions?

A.  Yes, this was one of those matters that caused constant
fear.  This fear would begin and continue, in fact, also at
night.  Majdanek had one place, a latrine, one toilet, and
it was also the only place in Majdanek which had water.  We
had to get up at the sound of a gong, the sound of a bell,
and to run as fast as we could, in order to manage to get
there before the others, prisoners too, who were old-timers
and more experienced, could get there.

Q. Why did you have to run?

A. Since, if you came late, they began to maltreat the Jews.

Q. Who were "they"?

A. The non-Jewish prisoners who had been put there, and also
Jews amongst them who were Kapos in the camp.

Attorney General: Perhaps you would like to sit down, Mr.
Gutman.  The Court will allow you to do so.

Presiding Judge: Yes, certainly, I told you that.  The
important thing is your evidence, not the fact that you are

Witness Gutman:   Thank you.

Attorney General: Did they maltreat you there with whips?
Did they beat you with whips?

Witness Gutman:   I did not experience that afterwards in
any camp, in all the camps where I was after Majdanek.  They
had these whips.  They were made of an iron rod with plaited
leather on it.  Both the SS men and the Kapos had them.
They used them all the time, whenever there was an
opportunity, and even when there was no opportunity.

Q. From what kind of persons were those prisoners in
Majdanek who were in charge of other prisoners - the Kapos -

A. Most of them were German criminals, apparently habitual
criminals.  And on the strength of their maltreating the
prisoners, they were allowed to enjoy an easy life; they
were given certain privileges in the camp.

Q. Mr. Gutman, I understand that, later on, an announcement
was made that anyone who wanted to leave the place could
move to another camp?

A. No, it was not an announcement.  It was a rumour that
circulated amongst the prisoners, to the effect that some
sort of committee had arrived, and it was selecting fit
people, prisoners who were fit for work, and those were to
be transferred elsewhere where they would be employed in

Q. And you felt that you could not hold out any longer in

A. That is how I felt, and this was the feeling common to
all those who had come on the same transport.

Q. So you volunteered to go to another place?

A. I did not volunteer.  They did not ask us any questions.
They lined us up for a roll-call, naked, and from our ranks
they selected people.  We knew that this time it was a
selection, since they actually chose from amongst us those
who still had some strength, who still had some flesh on

Q. You failed to pass this test three times?

A. Three times I tried to pass the test, but they rejected

Q. On the fourth attempt, you managed by stealth?

A. On the fourth occasion, I managed by night, together with
one of my friends, to steal away, to escape from the block
where I was and to smuggle myself into another block where
this transport was being assembled.

Q. This transport went to Birkenau?

A. This transport arrived at Auschwitz `A'; I was never in
the Stammlager (prisoner of war camp) at Birkenau.

Q. So you were not at Birkenau?

A. I was in Auschwitz `A'.

Q. I shall not question you about Auschwitz, about the life
in Auschwitz, since others will testify about that.  But I
want to ask you questions on which I cannot get any details
from others.  Firstly, in Auschwitz, there were also Kapos
of a different category - Jews.  Were there also some of
those who treated the prisoners well?

A. There were people who fulfilled what was described as
functions at Auschwitz, Jews and non-Jews, who showed a
human approach.  Not only did they show this human attitude,
but they also had connections with the international
underground of the camp.

Q. There was an underground at Auschwitz?

A. At the time I arrived there, a very extensive underground
was in existence.

Q. And did you belong to it?

A. I belonged to the Jewish division within the underground.

Q. By the way, did you know Noach Zabludowicz, who has
testified here?

A. He was also one of those who was in constant touch with
the underground.

Presiding Judge: Was he outside?

Witness Gutman:   No, he was not outside, but he did work
which also involved going outside to camps in the
neighbourhood, because of the work they were doing.

Presiding Judge: Was that the witness who was a driver?

Attorney General: The one who was considered to be one of
the Volksdeutsche.  Some time later he was arrested.

Judge Halevi:  And I asked him some question in error...

Attorney General: That question pains him to this day.

Judge Halevi:  That was a mistake on my part - a
misunderstanding, and I am sorry about it.

Witness Gutman:   There were other comrades from Ciechanow,
Mordecai Hilleli and others, who were the nucleus of this
underground division and who, in the early stages, engaged
in mutual help, in giving a slice of bread to the needy, in
rescuing a man who was already amongst the condemned - in
certain cases, such possibilities existed - in providing
medicines to a man who was prevented from going to the
hospital, since it was clear to him that if he went there,
he would not come out, in securing a little lighter work for
a person who, we knew, was on the brink of becoming a
musselman.  But, apart from this, there was an actual
military plan which had been prepared by army men, officers,
members of a political underground, Poles, Germans as well,
Frenchmen.  We also had a member in that inner military
command which was dealing with the preparation of the plan.

Attorney General: Since the Court's time is limited, I would
ask you to give a very brief description.

Presiding Judge: As you have come from a distance, we are
trying to finish your evidence today.

Attorney General: We only have a few minutes, and I want you
to try and describe this as shortly as you can.

Witness Gutman:   I shall try.

Q. There was a revolt of the Sonderkommando in Auschwitz
which was partly successful - were you at that time a member
of the underground that carried out the revolt?

A. I only had an indirect link with the revolt, and I shall
describe it in a few words.  On one of those days, I and a
companion of mine, Yehuda Laufer, who today resides in
Haifa, received an order to ensure that we brought
explosives from our place of work, which was a huge, very
large factory for detonators.  This assignment was very
difficult, because moving around in this factory was
forbidden, and in the place where explosive materials were
handled, only Jewish girls were employed, and they were
under very strict supervision.  Through one of our female
comrades whom we were able to talk to, Hadassah Zlotnitska,
we tried to persuade the girls to hand over explosives to
us, but we were unsuccessful.  And then one of our members
was sent to Birkenau, and he took upon himself the task of
persuading a comrade of ours who was responsible for our
cell in Birkenau, Roza Robota, to see to it that the girls
should agree to abstract explosives and hand them over to
us.  They agreed, and from that time, almost every day, with
the aid of food bins having a false bottom, we used to bring
small quantities of explosives into Auschwitz `A'.  It also
happened once that, when I was standing next to this comrade
of mine, they began conducting a sudden search, and he said
that this time he had not managed to conceal the material in
the food bin, and it was hidden on his person inside a
cigarette box, and it was clear to me that if they
discovered it, not only would we pay for it with our lives,
but that all these people - there were more than one
thousand - and possibly the entire underground in Auschwitz,
were in danger.  They noticed that I was shivering all over
my body, and they searched me thoroughly.  And, after having
found nothing, they skipped my companion who was standing at
my side, apparently because they got somewhat tired.  I
apparently displayed some anxiety, and he did not.

After some time, it became clear to us that our comrade,
Roza Robota, was also sending explosives to Birkenau, and
this material had been delivered to the Sonderkommando.

That was at the time of the large deportations from Hungary,
when every day we were inhaling the smell of death, when we
got up in the mornings and saw the flames going up from the
chimneys.  And when these large transports were ended, they
began liquidating the Sonderkommando.  They were the
witnesses, they were the men who had participated in it.
The men who had forced them to do that despicable work -
they were going to be their murderers.  And the
Sonderkommando told us that they were going to revolt, and
they wanted us to advance the date of the uprising.  We went
to the general underground and told them that we had
messages from our comrades in Birkenau who were insisting
that we should revolt, for otherwise they had no chance to
live; but they had their own considerations and interests,
to which they were bound, also outside, also with partisans
outside, and they told us that we should direct them not to
do anything, for they might endanger everything.

Q. But they, nevertheless, took action?

A. But they revolted - I don't remember the date - but after
it was investigated, it was found to be on 6 November 1944.

Q. What did they do?

A. They blew up the crematorium No. 2, they killed some of
the men and their Kapo, they fled and scattered in the
neighbourhood.  And, as far as I know, not one of them
survived.  An immediate state of alert was declared, forces
were mobilized from the area, they spread out and went in
search of them and killed them, evidently to the last man.

Q. I understand that a special commission of enquiry came to
investigate how the revolt and the explosion had occurred,
and, in consequence of the work of this commission of
enquiry, Roza Robota was arrested and severely tortured.  I
will spare you the details and will only put questions to
you which you will kindly confirm.

You were afraid lest, under the pressure of the tortures,
she might betray the underground?

A. Yes.

Q. And then she sent a request through someone, through a
messenger, a block elder, that Noach Zabludowicz should come
to her, and he went to her?

A. He came into the bunker at night.

Q. And she told him that you had nothing to fear, that she
had not revealed anything?

A. Through him she sent a piece of paper which reached us,
on which she had written that we had nothing to fear, that
we should carry on with the job, that she knew why she was
going to die, and that no other person was in danger.

Q. And then she was executed by hanging?

A. She and four other Jewish girls were executed by hanging,
and Roza Robota's last word, which was heard by the girls
standing on parade - for they obliged all of them to stand
on parade and watch it - was: "Vengeance."

Q. Thereafter, you were transferred from Auschwitz to the
camp at Mauthausen?

A. I was at Auschwitz until the day of the evacuation, until
18 January 1945.

Q. And then you were transferred to Mauthausen?

A. I walked in the death march - that was in January, 1945 -
towards Mauthausen.

Q. And you arrived at Mauthausen, where you were set free?

A. They brought me there, and there I was liberated by the
United States army.

Presiding Judge: Dr. Servatius, do you have any questions to
the witness?

Dr. Servatius:  No, I have no questions.

Judge Halevi:  Mr. Gutman, when were the gas chambers at
Auschwitz and Birkenau destroyed? Do you know, by any

Witness Gutman:   I only know this from rumours that
circulated amongst the prisoners.  I think it was -  I
cannot state a precise date - during the last days of the
autumn of 1944.  I should only like to add that we did not
believe it.  At all events, we, the Jews, I, myself, at any
rate, did not believe it.

Q. But afterwards it became clear that it was true?

A. Afterwards it turned out that it was a fact.

Q. After that no more people were put to death, or how was

A. For example, in that death march in which I participated
(I called it that - a death march), those were the survivors
of Auschwitz whom it was decided to evacuate.  We insisted
on a revolt, for we believed that the Jews did not have a
chance.  But the underground ordered us to go with the
evacuation, since they had information that this was really
an evacuation and not an execution.  And, on the way, anyone
whose foot was sprained, who felt momentarily weak, anyone
who had to sit down for a few minutes - was shot.  I wanted
to say that that group of Jews of ours walked with arms
linked and, as far as possible, helped those who became
weak.  We dragged them along, and all of us reached
Mauthausen.  With the exception of one man whom they killed
when he tried to save a comrade, we all survived.

Presiding Judge: Thank you, Mr. Gutman, you have concluded
your evidence.

As I announced previously, the next Session will take place
on Monday next, at 10.30 a.m., and will continue until 1
p.m. without a break.

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