The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/e/eichmann.adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-021-05

Archive/File: people/e/eichmann.adolf/transcripts/Sessions/Session-021-05
Last-Modified: 1999/10/10

Attorney General: Let us leave the camp for a moment.
Somebody else will speak about the labour camp. I want you
to tell me now about the execution of Jews who were alleged
to shirk work. Do you remember the hangings of the Jews in

Witness Zabludowicz: Yes. I have already spoken about them.

Q. What was the charge?

A. The charge was that they evaded work. There were five
Jews - the first to be hanged.

Q. Were there hangings also in Novidvor?

A. Yes, correct, there were the five Jews whom they brought
from Ciechanow who were with me in prison, and they brought
them from Novidvor to Ciechanow and hanged them.

Q. Who was in charge of these hangings?

A. The Gestapo.

Judge Halevi:  When was this?

A. The second hanging, the great one, was in 1942.

Q. When was the first?

A. They hanged the first five Jews in 1941. I cannot
remember the exact date. The second hanging was carried out
in 1942 - they hanged these Jews in Novidvor. There was also
a third hanging...

Q. Just a moment. The second...what month was that, do you

A. I don't remember.

Q. How long before the deportation to Auschwitz?

A. A few months before the deportation, not long before. And
there was a final hanging, a few days before the general
deportation, there were these three Jews...

Attorney General: Let us leave details for the present. Do
you remember the action against Jews who, they alleged, were
concealing articles of value? What did they do to them?

Witness Zabludowicz: There was no such accusation.

Q. Please recall what happened on 5 November 1942?

A. Then they didn't hang them - they killed them, they
murdered them.

Q. Who killed them?

A. The SS men who were guarding them.

Q. Do you remember the case of a Jewish baby?

A. That is right.

Q. Tell us in detail what you remember about it.

A. When we were lined up in rows on the day of the
deportation, there was a woman who held a few months' old
baby girl in her arms. The baby began to cry, to wail. One
of the SS men turned to her and said: "Please give me the
child." Naturally she resisted, but he said this in a very
kindly way and she, despite herself, handed over the child -
in fear. He took the baby in his hands and threw her down
with her forehead hitting the road, and the baby died. The
mother was not even able to cry out. And there were also
instances in those rows where people were accused of
allegedly possessing articles of value, and they shot them.

Q. How long was the journey to Auschwitz?

A. Two days.

Q. In closed railway carriages?

A. In closed carriages.

Q. They gave you food?

A. No.

Q. Where did you relieve yourselves?

A. In the carriage.

Q. Do you remember anything about invalids?

A. Yes.

Q. When was this?

A. It was at the beginning. I cannot give you the exact
date, but there was an instruction from the men of the
Selbstschutz, men of the Gestapo: please register all the
invalids and cripples. They purported to be making
provisions for a sanatorium - they wanted to send these
people for recuperation. Whoever recovered - well and good;
whoever did not - would remain in the sanatorium. At the
outset people weren't suspicious and gave it no thought.
People registered, for better or for worse. And on one of
those days, they removed several hundred of the Jews, sent
them to a place not far from the town, to a forest named
Oshislovi, and they were all shot.

Presiding Judge: Dr. Servatius, have you any questions to
the witness?

Dr. Servatius:  I have no question to this witness.

Judge Halevi:  You told us that for a period of two years
you had German papers.

Witness Zabludowicz:  Correct.

Q. And your name appeared as Robert instead of Noach?

A. Correct.

Q. What was your job?

A. I worked as a driver for Kessler. Kessler had several
cars, not only one car. I was the Oberchauffeur (chief
driver). I was responsible for all the cars.

Q. By what right did you receive the identity of a German?

A. I had heard that some German had come along and was
looking for a driver. I left my work and came to him. He
tested me - he had a car with three trailers.

Q. The Germans knew that you were a Jew? Were you an
informer for the two years?

A. Informer?

Q. They wanted you to be an informer?

A. No.

Q. They proposed to you that you should be an informer?

A. The Germans?

Q. The Gestapo, so you said, demanded this of you.

A. This was at the time of the interrogation. After my
arrest. When I began to work, I said to him: "Mr. Kessler, I
cannot work for you." He said: "What's wrong, are you ill?"
I said: "I am not ill, as you can see. I am fit and well.
But I bear a stain, I am a Jew." And he said: What, you are
a Jew! You have found yourself a good German." He went off
and within two days arranged a certificate for me.

Q. When?

A. At that time, in May 1940.

Q. You received a document as a German?

A. More than that - after some time I received a call-up to
the German army, and the Ministry of Transportation
apparently requested a deferment on the grounds that I was
an essential worker.

Q. I don't understand. At that time, in May 1942, it
happened that you were under arrest by the Gestapo because
you were a Jew, and at the same time they gave you the
identity document of a German?

A. I should like to clarify to the Court. Throughout the
week I did not wear the badge of a Jew. I always kept with
me the certificate that I received from them, and this was
my practice. But every week I did a lot for our people, a
lot, moving Jews from place to place wherever they were
looking for them. There was no mail for Jews and I
established contact between ghetto and ghetto. No one knew
what was going on 10 to 20 kilometres away, in another
place, in the next village. I was a Jew and passed through
all the ghettos, I maintained contact between the people, I
took people from place to place. Every Saturday, when I was
free from this work, I went into the residential areas where
the Jews lived. I was living with my "Chief" outside the
area restricted to Jews. When I reached the Jewish zone, I
wore the Jewish badge. I couldn't move around amongst the
Jews without it. I met with friends and gave them a weekly
report. I received fresh instructions as to what I had to
do. At that time, in 1942 in the month of May, when the
incident which I have described occurred, I wore the Jewish
badge to which I was not used.

Q. Did the men of the Gestapo, during these two years, know
that you were a Jew, or did they think and believe that you
were a German?

A. I was a "pure German."

Q. In the eyes of the Germans.

Presiding Judge: Did you yourself witness an instance where
SS men entered an apartment?

Witness Zabludowicz: I was present.

Judge Halevi:  When they separated husbands from wives and,
as you related, they forced a man to have relations with
another woman?

Witness Zabludowicz: I was present there, Your Honours.

Q. In one instance?

A. The instance where I was present. I could not see
instances where I was not present.

Q. What happened in your case, the one you witnessed? For
you were speaking in a general way.

A. I am describing only instances that I witnessed,
instances that I myself saw. Not what I didn't see.

Q. You saw with your own eyes how they forced a Jewish man
to have relations with another woman?

A. They forced the men to exchange wives.

Q. In the room where you were?

A. Yes.
Q. And the case of the baby girl that they threw down? This
was in your presence?

A. This was in my presence, in the presence of all the
people of Ciechanow.

Judge Raveh:   Do you know how many Jews there were in
Ciechanow at the outbreak of the War?

Witness Zabludowicz: 6,000 Jews.

Q. How many were transferred to Auschwitz?

A. All of them were transferred to Auschwitz.

Q. The same number?

A. The total number went to Auschwitz.

Q. That means that the number remained the same from the
outbreak of the War until they were transferred to

A. I would like to point out that there were many cases of
people who were not of our town who joined us, in the same
way as some of our people moved to another place. But the
number of people who were in Ciechanow during that period
was 6,000 Jews. All of them were transferred to Auschwitz.

Q. Perhaps you have an idea, with regard to the people of
Ciechanow itself - not those who came from outside - how did
their number change from the outbreak of the War until they
were taken to Auschwitz?

A. It was approximately the same number all the time.

Q. That means that the number of Jews in Ciechanow did not
decrease from the outbreak of the War until the transfer to

A. What the number was before the beginning of the War - I
don't know.

Q. You said that at the time of the outbreak of the War
there were 6,000 Jews there.

A. There were 6,000 at the time of the Holocaust - how many
there were when the War broke out - this I do not know. I
beg you pardon - I didn't understand the question.

Q. This means that approximately 6,000 Jews were sent to

A. Yes.

Q. After the War, did you meet Jews from Ciechanow?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have an idea how many survivors there were from

A. Yes, actually I know this exactly. There were about 10
girls and about 70-72 men.

Presiding Judge: You said that you were in the underground.
Perhaps you will tell us briefly about the underground.

Witness Zabludowicz: The underground in Ciechanow continued
its activity even in the concentration camp. But this is not
relevant to the matter before the Court. The underground in
Ciechanow took the form of mutual aid to people and we
achieved the impossible - in the surroundings there were no
places for concealment. Each one of us helped the other.
When they moved people to the ghetto of Nove Mesto, where
there was sickness, we assisted a great deal by bringing
additional supplies of food in whatever way we could.
Officially this was mutual aid.

Q. Was this only in that town, or was this a more extensive

A. It was a wider organization. I was in touch with a number
of people in several towns. I was the only one in touch with

Q. You spoke of the interrogation where you were required to
give information and you did not inform?
A. I did not inform.

Presiding Judge: Many thanks, Mr. Zabudlowicz.

Attorney General: I should like to submit to the Court two
orders of execution by shooting in Ciechanow. These are our
documents Nos. 1254 and 1255. This has already been referred
to in the interrogation of the Accused.

Presiding Judge: This will be T/200 (1254) and T/201 (1255).

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