Archive/File: orgs/american/oregon/banished.cpu christian.news Last-Modified: 1993/12/17 Note: This file was published to UseNet by Dan Gannon, aka "maynard", in four parts. I have concatenated all four parts into a single document to provide for easier retrieval. knm. From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!destroyer!news.cic.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!netcomsv!netcomsv!banished!maynard Fri Dec 17 01:09:12 PST 1993 Article: 20265 of soc.history Newsgroups: soc.history Path: oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!destroyer!news.cic.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!netcomsv!netcomsv!banished!maynard From: firstname.lastname@example.org Subject: THE GREAT NON-DEBATE [PART 1 OF 4] Message-ID: <9312161343.A1349wk@banished.uucp> Organization: Banished CPU X-Mailer: TBBS/PIMP v2.41 Distribution: world Date: Thu, 16 Dec 93 13:43:42 Lines: 132 >From _Christian News_, February 27, 1989, page 1: 'THE DEBATE OF THE CENTURY' ON HOLOCAUST FIZZLES Exterminationists Called 'Un-American' for Backing Out of Debate Four Empty Seats vs. Revisionists Los Angeles, California -- February 21 -- What has long been called "The Debate of the Century" by the "Exterminators of Revisionism" turned out here today to be a "debate" between four empty chairs marked "Glen Peglau," "John Montgomery," "Hal Lindsey," and "Thomas Anderson" and revisionists Robert Faurisson, Robert Countess, Bradley Smith, and Mark Weber. On March 7, 1988 the "Exterminators of revisionism" announced in a news release titled "Debate of the Century Is On:" "It is high time we prove beyond a reasonable doubt before the whole world, in an open debate before the global media, that the holocaust was a real part of history. This must be done to stop the ridiculous contentions of the revisionists that the holocaust is only a figment of the Zionists' imagination. Their anti-Semitism and neo-Nazi propaganda must be stopped in this generation." Attorney Glen Peglau is quoted in the release: "It is also doubtful in my mind whether the revisionists can get one responsible theologian on their side. I can assure you we will have at least four of the most responsible, conservative, Bible believing theologians on our side. These men are godly men who are above reproach." The March 21, 1988 CN said in an editorial on the debate: "Both sides should only be interested in the truth and not in winning some debate. Both sides should follow CN's long standing motto: PUT ALL OF THE FACTS ON THE TABLE AND LET THE CHIPS FALL WHERE THEY MAY. "After the debate is over, we hope that one side or the other will have the courage to say to the other: 'Thanks, we appreciate that you have shown us the truth, we regret that we have been so sadly misled all these years and we will do our best to see that from now on only the truth is told about the Holocaust.'" Attorney Glen Peglau, chairman of the "Committee for the Extermination of Revisionism" announced on February 15 that "a bomb threat" had been "inferred" and that it would not be possible for the exterminationists (who insist that the Germans exterminated, most of them in gas chambers, six million Jews) to debate the revisionists. The Revisionists at the debate noted that the Christian exterminationists should not have been afraid to debate "just because of some inferred bomb threat." "Have these Christian exterminationists not trust in the God they say they believe in?," a revisionist asked. Since it was not possible to inform all those who had planned to attend the Holocaust debate that the exterminationists would not appear, the revisionists presented their position at a motel across the street from where the debate had originally been scheduled. Almost all the approximately 150 who attended the "debate" indicated that they did not believe the Germans exterminated six million Jews or that the Germans had a plan to exterminate Jews. Dr. Robert Countess, who has taught at various colleges, began the debate by saying he hoped the revisionists could at least "win over" the exterminationists to study revisionist literature. Exterminationists Peglau and Montgomery admitted that they had not read the writings of the leading revisionists. The revisionists at the debate repeatedly referred to the writings of the most scholarly and respected exterminationist authorities. Countess said he could not understand why "born again" Christians should let some alleged "bomb threat" frighten them. Countess phoned Peglau and asked him: "Can't you trust in the Lord?" The Alabama professor said that Peglau informed him that 98.2% of the American people believe in the Holocaust. Commenting on Hal Lindsey, Countess noted that Hal Lindsey maintains that animal sacrifices will one day again take place for human sin. The revisionists had hoped to be able to question the exterminationists, but revisionist Mark Weber announced that the exterminationists said they would refuse to debate if the revisionists would be allowed to question them. Weber reported that Peglau had told him his exterminationist team would not answer questions "because we are going to be made fools of" by answering questions from revisionists. The revisionists said they would be willing to answer any questions. Since the exterminationists were not present to question the revisionists, the revisionists answered questions from the audience and the press. Mark Weber commented on the origins of the debate. He noted that Peglau had announced with "great fan fare" the formation of the exterminators of revisionism and that the debate would be held in Constitution Hall in Washington, D.C. for national television. Weber said that Peglau had announced that at least two congressmen and several Holocaust survivors would be part of his team. According to Weber, all the excuses the exterminationists were now using to back out of the debate appeared to be "pretexts." "We are greatly disappointed," Weber said. "We thought it would be a positive event." Dr. Countess noted that the list of prominent scholars who now take the revisionist position on the Holocaust "gets longer" each year. "We do not deny that there was a holocaust" he said. He referred to the holocaust of Dresden when some 200,000 were killed. "All of WWII was a holocaust," but the extermination of six million Jews is simply not in accord with the evidence, Countess added. He said that the best evidence that the Germans did not exterminate six million Jews and did not have any plan to exterminate all Jews is that after WWII most of them were still there. The revisionists noted that Fred Leuchter, a leading U.S. authority on the construction of gas chambers for executing criminals, recently made a detailed study of the "gas chambers" where the Jews are to have been exterminated. He also studied their construction plans. Leuchter, who believed the Germans exterminated six million Jews, most of them in gas chambers, before his scientific study, concluded there were no gas chambers in the camps where the Germans are to have gassed millions. Leuchter called for an impartial International Commission to investigate the alleged gas chambers and their plans. Revisionists at the debate appeared to support Leuchter's call for such a commission. Countess said that the Nazis were "anti-Jewish," a spirit which he deplored. While he recognized that many communists were Jewish ("Jay Bols"), he maintained it was difficult to prove conspiratorial notions which blamed all the world's ills on any one group. He said the "Protocols of Zion" were not authentic and that the average Jew was a good citizen. He said "there is no evidence of any worldwide conspiracy." The revisionist noted that debates were in the best American tradition and that the revisionists regretted that the exterminationists were not following in this tradition. Dr. Robert Faurisson, a professor from France, and an expert on documentary evidence, began by pointing to the empty chairs and saying that he wished that Elie Wiesel, Simon Wiesenthal, Rudolf Verba, and Raul Hilberg were seated in the chairs and that he would be able to question these leading Holocaust writers and authorities. He cited some of the questions he would have asked them. "Have you studied the gas chambers?" "Were you there?" "Where are the extermination orders?" "Where are budget figures for extermination, plans, etc.?" Faurisson participated in a trial involving the Holocaust where he was able to help attorney Doug Christie cross-examine Hilberg and Verba. Observers report that Hilberg and Verba were "utterly devastated" and shown to be untruthful. Faurisson, a leftist and an atheist, at one time believed the Germans exterminated six million Jews, most of them by gassing, but after spending years studying the "gas chambers" and the Holocaust concluded that there were no gas chambers. Faurisson asked Elie Wiesel's chair: "When your liberators from the death camp in Auschwitz were coming and you had a choice to remain in Auschwitz why did you leave with your exterminators?" Faurisson mentioned other questions he wanted to ask the exterminationist scholars designed to expose their "lies" and contradictions. He maintained that Verba is a "professional liar." The Frenchman said that the exterminationists who refused to debate and defend their position in open debate were "un-American." Faurisson's reasons for maintaining there were no gas chambers for extermination are in _The Christian News Encyclopedia_, pp. 2920. The editor of _Christian News_ at the "debate" announced that the exterminationists said they were still interested in a debate, possibly in Palm Springs, California, on September 23. He reported that Mr. Glen Peglau had agreed to a proposal for a written debate in the pages of Christian News. (See page 22 on the February 20 CN for the editor's proposal for a written debate). The CN editor listed his reasons for not believing in the Holocaust at the International Conference on Historical Review. The CN editor is willing to publish any response from an exterminationist who wants to show that his reasons are in error. The editor stated: * THERE IS NO CONVINCING OR SUBSTANTIAL EVIDENCE FOR THE ALLEGATION OF MASS KILLINGS IN GAS CHAMBERS IN THE WARTIME GERMAN CAMPS. Careful investigation -- and in particular the one carried out by American engineer Fred Leuchter -- has thoroughly discredited the "gas chamber" extermination claims. * A NUMBER OF FORMER CAMP INMATES -- INCLUDING SOME WHO WERE INTERNED IN THE NOTORIOUS AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU CAMP -- HAVE DECLARED THAT THE WARTIME GERMAN CAMPS WERE NOT EXTERMINATION CENTERS. * THE MOST RELIABLE STATISTICS AVAILABLE CANNOT BE RECONCILED WITH THE LEGENDARY "SIX MILLION" FIGURE. The best evidence indicates that no more than a million or perhaps a million and a half European Jews perished from all causes during the war years. * NEITHER THE MAJOR JEWISH ORGANIZATIONS IN THE UNITED STATES, NOR THE WARTIME ALLIED GOVERNMENTS, NOR THE INTERNATIONAL RED CROSS, NOR THE VATICAN ACTED AS IF THEY SERIOUSLY BELIEVED THE WARTIME EXTERMINATION PROPAGANDA. * ALTHOUGH THE GERMAN GOVERNMENT KEPT EXTENSIVE AND DETAILED RECORDS OF ITS WARTIME JEWISH POLICY, NOT A SINGLE DOCUMENT HAS EVER BEEN FOUND WHICH SUBSTANTIATES OR EVEN REFERS TO AN EXTERMINATION PROGRAM OR POLICY. Instead, the voluminous German records confiscated by the Allies at the end of the war clearly show that the German "final solution" program was one of emigration and deportation, not extermination. * EVEN PROMINENT JEWISH "EXTERMINATIONIST" HISTORIANS NOW ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE STORIES OF GASSINGS AND EXTERMINATION IN CAMPS IN GERMANY PROPER ARE NOT TRUE, IN SPITE OF THE FACT THAT SUCH CLAIMS WERE ONCE SERIOUSLY MADE, PARTICULARLY AT THE GREAT NUREMBERG TRIAL OF 1945-1946. * THE HOLOCAUST STORY NOW CENTERS ON JUST SIX FORMER CAMPS IN WHAT IS NOW COMMUNIST-RULED POLAND, AND THE SO-CALLED "EVIDENCE" PRESENTED TO PROVE MASS EXTERMINATIONS IN THESE CAMPS IS QUALITATIVELY NO BETTER THAN THE NOW DISCREDITED "EVIDENCE" ONCE CITED FOR EXTERMINATIONS IN THE CAMPS IN GERMANY PROPER. * MUCH OF THE SO-CALLED "EVIDENCE" PRESENTED BY THE "EXTERMINATIONISTS" OVER THE YEARS HAS ALREADY BEEN THOROUGHLY DISCREDITED. For example, the well-known horrific photographs of piles of corpses taken in camps in western Germany at the end of the war are now acknowledged to be photos of victims of disease and malnutrition who perished as indirect victims of the war in the final weeks and months of the conflict. Also, so-called "confessions" -- such as those of Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess -- have been shown to be untruthful and extracted by torture. Many of the official reports and testimonies presented as "evidence" by the prosecution in the Nuremberg trials has since been shown to be lies. * THE FACT THAT SO MANY JEWS "SURVIVED" GERMAN RULE DURING THE WAR -- MANY OF THEM EVEN IN SO-CALLED "EXTERMINATION" CENTERS SUCH AS AUSCHWITZ-BIRKENAU -- IS ENOUGH TO SHOW THAT THERE WAS NO GERMAN PROGRAM OR POLICY TO EXTERMINATE THE JEWS OF EUROPE. (Only partially relevant:) EXTERMINATIONISTS SOMETIMES CHARGE THAT THE REVISIONISTS HAVE NOT IRREFUTABLY PROVEN THEIR CASE. However, it is rather those who make terrible accusations who have the burden of proof to prove their case -- and not those who dispute these charges. The Holocaust is a hoax and the time has come for Christian scholars and pastors to recognize this and stop perpetrating a hoax as the truth. A Christian is not free to believe and promote a lie about any person or nation, as was said in our introduction. True Christian scholars should at least read what the revisionists are saying. [end of article] This article was manually transcribed by the System Operator of the "Banished CPU" computer bulletin board system, which is located in Portland, Oregon, U.S.A. Banished CPU supports Freedom of Speech! ___________________________________________________________ | | | For 300-9600 bps (3 lines w/V.32) call: (503) 232-5783 | | For 14400 bps (2 lines w/V.32bis) call: (503) 232-6566 | |___________________________________________________________| Sysop: Maynard "the Main Nerd" [end of file] -Dan Gannon From oneb!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!destroyer!news.cic.net!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sgiblab!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!decwrl!netcomsv!netcomsv!banished!maynard Fri Dec 17 01:10:08 PST 1993 >From _Christian News_, March 13, 1989, page 10: Montgomery 'Astonishingly Ignorant' PEGLAU BACKS OUT OF HOLOCAUST DEBATE By Mark Weber Seven days before it was to be held on Feb. 21 in Torrance, Calif., Glen Peglau and his "exterminationist" team backed out of the eagerly anticipated Holocaust debate. Our "Revisionist" team went ahead anyway with a presentation that included a news conference and talks by Dr. Robert Countess, Bradley Smith, French professor Robert Faurisson and myself. Peglau and his team were represented by four empty chairs, each with a large sign showing the name of an absent "exterminationist." [Photograph captioned, "Open Debate on the Holocaust, Torrance, California, February 21. Four empty seats marked Tom Anderson, John Montgomery, Glen Peglau, and Hal Lindsey vs. (left to right) Robert Faurisson, Mark Weber, Bradley Smith, and Robert Countess."] ___________________________________________________________________________ "History will always owe a debt to the editor of _Christian News_ for his bringing the issue of the Holocaust, and the revisionist position, to the attention of the world...," Peglau added. "I believe we are operating under the Lord's will..." ___________________________________________________________________________ Journalists for the _Torrance Daily Breeze_ and the _Los Angeles Times_ were present, and articles about the "non-debate" later appeared in the two papers. Although the reports were slanted and sometimes inaccurate, they made many more people aware of the growing impact of Holocaust revisionism. Peglau -- a successful attorney and Lutheran activist -- backed out in spite of a promise to participate even if he would be "the only one present" from his side. Peglau said that he and best-selling Christian author Hal Lindsey withdrew because they feared a possible riot or bombing. Although I tried hard to convince Peglau that there was no basis for these fears, he remained completely inflexible. Peglau's pretext was a request by Torrance city police officer Rick Louck to everyone involved to report any suspicious phone calls or other unusual activity. Louck said that he was concerned that the Jewish Defense League might try to disrupt the event. (The FBI has officially described the Jewish Defense League as a criminal and terrorist organization. JDL founder Meier Kahane and current JDL leader Irv Rubin have each been arrested numerous times.) Although Bradley Smith and I welcomed police involvement, Peglau panicked when he heard about Loucke's concern. "I won't risk my life for this debate," he said. There was never any real danger. There were no threats or demonstrations, and the "non-debate" took place without incident or trouble of any kind. The other "exterminationist" team members -- educator John W. Montgomery and attorney Thomas Anderson -- were not able to participate as they had pledged because each had to be in court that day, Peglau said. [Photograph captioned, "John Warwick Montgomery, Ph.D., Th.D."] ___________________________________________________________________________ "To argue that the exterminations did not occur on the scale established by the Nuremberg Trials is to argue for a Flat Earth." --John Warwick Montgomery ___________________________________________________________________________ Almost all of the more than 100 men and women who attended the Feb. 21 "non-debate" already supported the revisionist view of the Holocaust story. The five-hour event began with an opening statement and a news conference. Rev. Herman Otten spoke briefly about the need for greater public awareness of both sides of this issue. (Otten, a Lutheran pastor, first proposed a Holocaust debate in the March 16, 1987, issue of his weekly paper, _Christian News_. Smith and I quickly accepted this challenge and we organized the Committee for Open Debate on the Holocaust to present the "revisionist" view. Several months later, Peglau announced that he would participate.) Dr. Countess, who has taught at numerous colleges and universities, delivered the first regular presentation, in which he sharply criticized the vast "Holocaustomania" media campaign. A question and answer period followed. During my own presentation, I cited numerous documents and other evidence to show that the Holocaust extermination story is a historical fraud. After another question and answer period, the gathering broke for lunch. After the break, Smith was the next to speak. The author and prominent revisionist publicist shared thoughts and observations about the Holocaust story in a wide-ranging talk. Prof. Faurisson concluded with a well-organized presentation that dealt with specific Holocaust myths. The failure of the four "exterminationists" to appear was "un-American," he said. After a lively question and answer period and some final announcements, the gathering concluded. In spite of the non-appearance of Peglau's team, our side was not entirely disappointed: We introduced a small group of skeptical attendees, including a few journalists, to the revisionist case. We strengthened the conviction of others who already agreed with our view. And we collected $616 in donations to defray our expenses and carry on our work. When Peglau backed out, he also cancelled the arrangement with the curch where the debate was to be held. This forced our side to quickly find (and pay for) an alternative site at a hotel conference room across the street. We also arranged to let people arriving at the curch know about the new site. Our side went ahead with the event because many people -- including quite a few from out of state -- had already made firm plans to attend, and because we had already notified quite a few newspapers about the event. During a phone conversation on Feb. 15, Peglau said that he would be willing to participate in an alternative debate in September in a "secure" hotel in Palm Springs. But 13 days later he backed out of even that whimpy verbal pledge. He told me during a Feb. 28 phone conversation that he is not willing to participate in a Holocaust debate of any kind -- except, perhaps, a written one in the pages of _Christian News_ -- because he will not put himself through any more strain and trouble. Peglau's last minute withdrawal contrasts sharply with his bombastic claims last year to "exterminate" Holocaust revisionism in a large-scale debate that he said would be held in Constitution Hall in Washington, DC. Peglau originally said that his 15-member team would include two U.S. Congressmen, prominent scholars and former camp inmates. "It is high time we prove beyond a reasonable doubt, before the whole world, in open debate before the global media, that the Holocaust was a real part of history," Peglau wrote in the March 7, 1988, issue of _Christian News_. "I assure you we will have at least four of the most responsible, Bible-believing theologians on our side. These will be godly men above reproach." "History will always owe a debt to the editor of _Christian News_ for his bringing the issue of the Holocaust, and the revisionist position, to the attention of the world...," Peglau added. "I believe we are operating under the Lord's will..." During many often lengthy phone conversations, Peglau made it abundantly clear that he is woefully ignorant about the Holocaust issue. He has a superficial "Hollywood" understanding of this chapter of history, and is not familiar with either the orthodox or the revisionist views. On numerous occasions, I urged Peglau (and Montgomery) to seriously study this issue so that they would be at least minimally prepared for the debate. During our Feb. 15 phone conversation, Peglau specifically admitted that he had been mistaken in telling me earlier that my letter to Hal Lindsey of Feb. 2 had so enraged Lindsey that he withdrew from the debate. And during our Feb. 28 conversation, Peglau said that Lindsey had not actually read my Feb. 2 letter until after he had already decided to withdraw from the debate. At one point during our Feb. 15 conversation, I rhetorically asked Peglau what kind of devotion to principle Lindsey and others like him would show if they lived in a country like North Korea or Cuba, where dissidents must endure real persecution. John W. Montgomery says that the revisionist view of the Holocaust story is "immoral," according to a report in the _Torrance Daily Breeze_ (Feb. 22). Such an accusation is particularly remarkable coming from a man who was recently forced out of his own law school for "moral failure." Montgomery is also astonishingly ignorant on the Holocaust issue. In fact, his willingness to debate our revisionist team can only be regarded as a breathtaking example of intellectual arrogance. During a phone conversation in late January, Montgomery acknowledged that he was not even superficially familiar with the writings of revisionist historians. ___________________________________________________________________________ "It is high time we prove beyond a reasonable doubt, before the whole world, in open debate before the global media, that the Holocaust was a real part of history." ___________________________________________________________________________ The _Daily Breeze_ quoted Montgomery as saying: "To argue that the exterminations did not occur on the scale established by the Nuremberg trials is to argue for a flat earth." Montgomery obviously does not know that even prominent "exterminationists" such as Raul Hilberg now reject the "original" Nuremberg version of the Holocaust story. For example, not a single serioius or prominent historian still believes the Nuremberg story that four million were killed at Auschwitz and another 1.5 million at Majdanek. Nor does any serious historian still accept the ludicrous Nuremberg tales of mass exterminations of Jews with electricity and steam. Hal Lindsey's bizarre best-selling fantasy about the imminent end of the world, _The Late Great Planet Earth_, includes the prediction that a vast military force of Soviet troops and no less than 200 million Chinese soldiers will soon be invading Israel. In a letter to Rev. Otten which appeared in the March 14, 1988, issue of _Christian News_, I wrote: "As you know, those who uphold the orthodox view of the Holocaust story have been notoriously unwilling to defend their position in open debate. So if the proposed debate is ever finally held, Mr. Smith and I will be very pleasantly surprised." Although we are disappointed at the failure of Peglau and his "exterminationist" friends to honor their well-publicized pledges, we remain as eager as ever to publicly debate the Holocaust story under any reasonable circumstances, confident that the evidence we present will convince intelligent and open-minded people that the Holocaust story is essentially a fraud which has been kept alive for self-serving reasons. [end of article] This article was manually transcribed by the System Operator of the "Banished CPU" computer bulletin board system, which is located in Portland, Oregon, U.S.A. Banished CPU supports Freedom of Speech! ___________________________________________________________ | | | For 300-9600 bps (3 lines w/V.32) call: (503) 232-5783 | | For 14400 bps (2 lines w/V.32bis) call: (503) 232-6566 | |___________________________________________________________| Sysop: Maynard "the Main Nerd" [end of file] -Dan Gannon
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