The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: orgs/american/cloc/stormfront-on-cloc


Subject:     CLOC
Sent:        1/17/96 5:21 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:21:31 -0500
Subject: CLOC
 
Although I should have been aware of it much sooner, I have investigated 
CLOC's activities, and sadly discovered the allegations in the _Time_ 
article are true.
 
What CLOC is doing is unacceptable.  It's as simple as that.  Attacking 
non-political, "helpless" groups is the most dishonorable form of 
cowardice I've seen on "our side."  I was absolutely disgusted by what I 
saw on alt.support.loneliness.  It takes no courage or skill to do what 
was being done on that group.
 
I have made a public request for CLOC to immediately cease and desist 
their unproductive, inappropriate campaigns against groups they have no 
business posting to, _especially_ in the name of the Aryan Race.  I know 
there are CLOC members on this list, and they should convey my statements 
to their "leaders."
 
What CLOC is doing is the epitomy of immaturity and hobbyism.  It does
_absolutely nothing_ to benefit our Cause, and does a great deal to harm
our image and respectability, already low due to Jewsmedia lies.  CLOC is
our own worst enemy.  With "friends" like CLOC, why do we need Abe
Cooper? 
 
I wrote "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET" to give guidelines for 
building a revolutionary communication infrastructure on the Net.  I am 
saddened to see people are using many of my ideas to the detriment of our 
Race, abusing the greatest opportunity to freely disseminate our views we 
have ever had.
 
CLOC operations on inappropriate groups and CLOC typically-crude tactics
end now.  Or, I will seek to put CLOC out of business, by whatever
measures it takes. 
 
-- Milton
  
 
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/17/96 9:22 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: nclearwntr@nclearwntr.seanet.com (Teri & Reuben)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 13:22:40 -0800
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
>From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
>Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 00:21:31 -0500
>Subject: CLOC
> 
>Although I should have been aware of it much sooner, I have investigated 
>CLOC's activities, and sadly discovered the allegations in the _Time_ 
>article are true.
 
I'll apologize for myself before I start... You'll have to excuse my
behavior. I can't help but get pissed off when one of our "own" does
something like this...
 
>What CLOC is doing is unacceptable.  It's as simple as that.  Attacking 
>non-political, "helpless" groups is the most dishonorable form of 
>cowardice I've seen on "our side."  I was absolutely disgusted by what I 
>saw on alt.support.loneliness.  It takes no courage or skill to do what 
>was being done on that group.
 
Excuse me, but what RC Richards and Salty write in behalf of CLOC is usually
complete bullshit and that's what you're seeing. If you happened to have
noticed, oh, maybe a month ago, there were CLOC'ers on those ngs that were
being friendly with others, not the crap that's going on there now. 
 
>I have made a public request for CLOC to immediately cease and desist 
>their unproductive, inappropriate campaigns against groups they have no 
>business posting to, _especially_ in the name of the Aryan Race.  I know 
>there are CLOC members on this list, and they should convey my statements 
>to their "leaders."
 
Leaders? What leaders? Everyone does their own thing. Kind of like
"freedom", ya know?
 
>What CLOC is doing is the epitomy of immaturity and hobbyism.  It does
>_absolutely nothing_ to benefit our Cause, and does a great deal to harm
>our image and respectability, already low due to Jewsmedia lies.  CLOC is
>our own worst enemy.  With "friends" like CLOC, why do we need Abe
>Cooper? 
 
You mean, "What RC and Salty and a few others are doing..." Whatever you
say, Mr. Know-It-All...
 
>I wrote "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET" to give guidelines for 
>building a revolutionary communication infrastructure on the Net.  I am 
>saddened to see people are using many of my ideas to the detriment of our 
>Race, abusing the greatest opportunity to freely disseminate our views we 
>have ever had.
 
No one used your ideas and I don't even know what they are. Do you think the
whole world revolves around you and when things don't go your way you have
to throw a temper tantrum like this? You, sir, I mean "boy", are the
immature one.
 
>CLOC operations on inappropriate groups and CLOC typically-crude tactics
>end now.  Or, I will seek to put CLOC out of business, by whatever
>measures it takes. 
> 
>-- Milton
 
I think that's the third or fourth time you wrote that, Milton... CLOC isn't
a business and you sound just like fucking Cooper! Maybe you should sit back
and listen to yourself. You actually *believed* the media! Excuse me while I
laugh at you...
 
 Teri
"Happy Newt Year!"
Loyal CLOC'er                 
 
"CLOC is not about hate, nor is it about destructiveness.  CLOC 
exists to promote the well being of the white race.  CLOC's only 
goal is to ensure that the forces of evil do not interfere with the 
Aryan's right to form a family and raise children in an environment 
which they can flourish and become successful, self-actualized
individuals.  This goal is so paramount that CLOC believes in 
achieving it no matter what the cost or personal sacrifice might 
be."
 


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/17/96 9:51 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: Marcus Aurelius 
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:51:08 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
Milt, I agree with you. Cloc tactics are not appropriate. If anything
these types of tactics will set us back. You can either love your 
race and build on that or build on the hatred of others. The later does
nothing for the movement. 
 


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/18/96 12:47 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: nclearwntr@nclearwntr.seanet.com (Teri)
Date: Wed, 17 Jan 1996 16:47:57 -0800
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
Milton writes:
 
>I have made a public request for CLOC to immediately cease and desist 
>their unproductive, inappropriate campaigns against groups they have no 
>business posting to, _especially_ in the name of the Aryan Race.  I know 
>there are CLOC members on this list, and they should convey my statements 
>to their "leaders."
 
White men have developed, built, and maintained the Internet since day one.
It is our birthright, my birthright.  Postings about White supremacy
*belong* in every newsgroup that exists.  The Carolinian Lords are not
invading newsgroups, we are *reclaiming* what has been created for us by our
forefathers.
 
Should anyone corrupt the Internet to the point that a White man can't log
on and discuss White supremacy at will, then I and the remainder of the
Carolinian Lords will consider it our right -- our *destiny* -- to destroy
the Internet entirely, preventing such a powerful tool from falling into the
hands of the Enemy.  We shall have an Ayan Internet or no Internet at all.
There is no middle ground!!
 
Milton, I know that you mean well, but this is war.  We will give no quarter.
 
Reuben
 


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/18/96 5:30 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 00:30:57 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
Teri of CLOC replies to me:
 
> >Although I should have been aware of it much sooner, I have investigated 
> >CLOC's activities, and sadly discovered the allegations in the _Time_ 
> >article are true.
 
> I'll apologize for myself before I start... You'll have to excuse my
> behavior. I can't help but get pissed off when one of our "own" does
> something like this...
 
And what is "it" I'm doing?  
 
> >What CLOC is doing is unacceptable.  It's as simple as that.  Attacking 
> >non-political, "helpless" groups is the most dishonorable form of 
> >cowardice I've seen on "our side."  I was absolutely disgusted by what I 
> >saw on alt.support.loneliness.  It takes no courage or skill to do what 
> >was being done on that group.
  
> Excuse me, but what RC Richards and Salty write in behalf of CLOC is usually
> complete bullshit and that's what you're seeing. If you happened to have
> noticed, oh, maybe a month ago, there were CLOC'ers on those ngs that were
> being friendly with others, not the crap that's going on there now. 
 
????
 
What are you trying to say, Teri?
 
Is CLOC an integral organization or not?  If what "Racial Theorist" and 
Salty say are not beneficial to our Cause, then why do you and Reuben 
continue to support CLOC?  Reuben and I have been posting long before 
CLOC ever came to USENET...and our posts were very effective -- _more_ 
effective -- than CLOC's operations.
 
> >I have made a public request for CLOC to immediately cease and desist 
> >their unproductive, inappropriate campaigns against groups they have no 
> >business posting to, _especially_ in the name of the Aryan Race.  I know 
> >there are CLOC members on this list, and they should convey my statements 
> >to their "leaders."
  
> Leaders? What leaders? Everyone does their own thing. Kind of like
> "freedom", ya know?
 
What exactly IS CLOC, then, Teri?  Is CLOC an organization or not?  If 
not an organization, why do you and Reuben associate with a degenerate 
like "Racial Theorist"?
 
> >What CLOC is doing is the epitomy of immaturity and hobbyism.  It does
> >_absolutely nothing_ to benefit our Cause, and does a great deal to harm
> >our image and respectability, already low due to Jewsmedia lies.  CLOC is
> >our own worst enemy.  With "friends" like CLOC, why do we need Abe
> >Cooper? 
  
> You mean, "What RC and Salty and a few others are doing..." Whatever you
> say, Mr. Know-It-All...
 
There was a support post from your account on asl last night, buttressing 
the campaign of "Racial Theorist."  Are you or are you not supporting 
"RT" by promoting CLOC?
 
> >I wrote "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET" to give guidelines for 
> >building a revolutionary communication infrastructure on the Net.  I am 
> >saddened to see people are using many of my ideas to the detriment of our 
> >Race, abusing the greatest opportunity to freely disseminate our views we 
> >have ever had.
  
> No one used your ideas and I don't even know what they are. Do you think the
> whole world revolves around you and when things don't go your way you have
> to throw a temper tantrum like this? You, sir, I mean "boy", are the
> immature one.
 
I invite everyone to read "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET," located on
"Aryan Crusader's Library," right next to the CLOC stuff (in fact, CLOC
material and "Tactics" both have URLs identifying them as "CNG" material).
I wrote "Tactics" long before CLOC, and it is clear that CLOC has adopted
and then perverted several of my ideas from "Tactics." 
 
As I said, before there was CLOC, there was Kleim.  If you want to 
consider that egotistical and arrogant, fine.  It's a simple fact I, 
along with two or three others, pioneered USENET for Aryan cyber-warfare 
techniques.  CLOC necessarily adopted the tactics we developed, and 
largely from my experiences "codified" in "Tactics."
 
> >CLOC operations on inappropriate groups and CLOC typically-crude tactics
> >end now.  Or, I will seek to put CLOC out of business, by whatever
> >measures it takes. 
 
> I think that's the third or fourth time you wrote that, Milton... CLOC isn't
> a business and you sound just like fucking Cooper! Maybe you should sit back
> and listen to yourself. You actually *believed* the media! Excuse me while I
> laugh at you...
 
No, Teri.  I didn't believe Quittner.  I HOPED he was lying or
misinformed.  I gave you CLOCers the benefit of the doubt, since we are
_supposed to be_ on the same side.  When I found out the _Time_ article
was accurate, my heart sank and my anger grew.  I was disgusted at what I
found.  As I said earlier, CLOC's destruction of asl is the USENET
equivalent of raping civilians during wartime.  Regardless of what went on
or is going on in asl now, there was NO reason CLOC should have EVER went
there.  Period.  You have hundreds, probably thousands of groups to post
to, and you followed "Racial Theorist" over to harass and abuse some
people who are not combatants in this Internet war. 
 
> "CLOC is not about hate, nor is it about destructiveness.  CLOC 
> exists to promote the well being of the white race.  CLOC's only 
> goal is to ensure that the forces of evil do not interfere with the 
> Aryan's right to form a family and raise children in an environment 
> which they can flourish and become successful, self-actualized
> individuals.  This goal is so paramount that CLOC believes in 
> achieving it no matter what the cost or personal sacrifice might 
> be."
 
This is nonsense.  CLOC has not done ONE thing to achieve these goals.  
On the contrary, CLOC has done much to assure we will have a more 
difficult time acheiving these goals and promoting their adoption among 
the Aryan Net surfers who are presently not aligned with us.  The 
Jewsmedia has seen to it that we have an "evil" image _without_ any 
action on our part; CLOC has given the Jewsmedia powerful evidence that 
(some) racists are indeed vicious and unfeeling.
 
-- Milton
 
With friends like CLOC, who needs Abe Cooper?
 
 
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/18/96 3:23 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 10:23:03 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
Reuben replies to me:
 
> >I have made a public request for CLOC to immediately cease and desist 
> >their unproductive, inappropriate campaigns against groups they have no 
> >business posting to, _especially_ in the name of the Aryan Race.  I know 
> >there are CLOC members on this list, and they should convey my statements 
> >to their "leaders."
  
> White men have developed, built, and maintained the Internet since day one.
> It is our birthright, my birthright.  
 
Certainly true.  ALL of Western Civilization is the product of Aryan
minds, and it will exist for so long as the cognition and creativity of 
the Aryan can sustain it.
 
> Postings about White supremacy *belong* in every newsgroup that exists.  
 
No they do not.  There are thousands of newsgroups where we may post our 
messages.  However, there are certain venues where we do NOT belong.  
Alt.support.loneliness, which was inhabited mostly by fellow Whites, is 
one of these groups.  You do NOT have the right to harass and intimidate 
people in the name of the Aryan Race, Reuben -- especially when there is 
NO gain from it, as is the case with CLOC operations.
 
> The Carolinian Lords are not invading newsgroups, we are *reclaiming* 
> what has been created for us by our forefathers.
 
You most certainly are invading groups where you don't belong.  You are
NOT reclaiming anything, since the groups you have selected to assault
have nothing to do with our Cause (and they are not pervaded with
non-Whites).  CLOC's latest sophistry about "helping people" in asl is
truly despicable.  
 
If you wish to "reclaim" groups taken from us by our opponents, why did 
not CLOC choose soc.culture.african.american or soc.culture.jewish?  Is 
it cowardice?  Too big of a challenge?  Is intimidating and annyoing 
people who are depressed a bigger laugh than activities that real 
cyber-guerrillas would engage in?
 
> Should anyone corrupt the Internet to the point that a White man can't log
> on and discuss White supremacy at will, then I and the remainder of the
> Carolinian Lords will consider it our right -- our *destiny* -- to destroy
> the Internet entirely, preventing such a powerful tool from falling into the
> hands of the Enemy.  We shall have an Ayan Internet or no Internet at all.
> There is no middle ground!!
 
The Reuben writing above is not the same Reuben I used to work with, when 
he built CyberHate/AC's Library alongside my USENET viking work.  The one 
above has lost all grasp of reality.
 
We don't control Western Civilization.  And we don't control the Net.  
You are apparently willing to destroy the Net to "save" it?  The INTERNET 
is our greatest weapon since the SS, but you want to abuse it.  Your 
unstable comments about destroying the Net are as insane as saying, 
"Well, since we don't control America, we're gonna start using nuclear 
weapons against every American city."  In either case, innocent 
non-combatants will/would be harmed for little or no gain.  Your advocacy 
of war against the entire USENET community itself is crazy, and is an 
exact equivalent of my description of the German Forces unit raping 
civilians in the name of the Fatherland.
 
The success of CLOC's war against USENET means we lose our most powerful 
medium.  Since CLOC is in a state of war against USENET, I intend to act 
accordingly to defend the "community" which I am a member of, and which 
has tolerated every reasonable yet "repugnant" action I've engaged in.
 
> Milton, I know that you mean well, but this is war.  We will give no quarter.
 
Yes, Reuben it is war.  But we are at war with the Enemy, not with 
USENET.  And if CLOC refuses to disengage, I intend to assist the USENET 
community in defeating you.
 
It's time to silence the Cuckoo CLOC.
 
-- Milton
 
With friends like CLOC, who needs Abe Cooper?
 
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/19/96 1:16 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: xyz@scsn.net
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 20:16:35 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
 
>> >I have made a public request for CLOC to immediately cease and desist 
>> >their unproductive, inappropriate campaigns against groups they have no 
>> >business posting to, _especially_ in the name of the Aryan Race.  I know 
>> >there are CLOC members on this list, and they should convey my statements 
>> >to their "leaders."
>  
>> Leaders? What leaders? Everyone does their own thing. Kind of like
>> "freedom", ya know?
 
that's exactly right.  there are no leaders in CLOC.
 
>What exactly IS CLOC, then, Teri?  Is CLOC an organization or not?  If 
>not an organization, why do you and Reuben associate with a degenerate 
>like "Racial Theorist"?
 
excuse me, bud, but i'm not a degenerate.
  
>> You mean, "What RC and Salty and a few others are doing..." Whatever you
>> say, Mr. Know-It-All...
> 
>There was a support post from your account on asl last night, buttressing 
>the campaign of "Racial Theorist."  Are you or are you not supporting 
>"RT" by promoting CLOC?
> 
>> >I wrote "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET" to give guidelines for 
>> >building a revolutionary communication infrastructure on the Net.  I am 
>> >saddened to see people are using many of my ideas to the detriment of our 
>> >Race, abusing the greatest opportunity to freely disseminate our views we 
>> >have ever had.
 
and basically, milt, your tactics didn't work.  ok, tell you what, let us
see you put them to use in some newsgroup, and we'll just observe, and we'll
see how effective your technique is.  there are reasons we do things like we
do that we are not going to disclose in public--but don't think we don't
have a plan.
  
>I invite everyone to read "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET," located on
>"Aryan Crusader's Library," right next to the CLOC stuff (in fact, CLOC
>material and "Tactics" both have URLs identifying them as "CNG" material).
>I wrote "Tactics" long before CLOC, and it is clear that CLOC has adopted
>and then perverted several of my ideas from "Tactics." 
 
and basically, milt, we've improved on your tactics.  plain and simple.
 
>As I said, before there was CLOC, there was Kleim.
 
and i think this is a lot of your problem, milt, and this why you think you
have to be in competition with CLOC.  basically, we've improved on your
ideas.  some of your ideas were good, but where were you going with them?
where was your internet organization?  sure, us CLOC'ers do bullshit around
some, but we've got about 12 people in CLOC now.  we started with three--me,
reuben, and marlow.
 
and i also want to say that i do not care to duke it out with you in public
on the usenet, but if that's what you want to do, then that's what we'll do.
personally, though, i think it's ridiculous.
 
>If you want to 
>consider that egotistical and arrogant, fine.  It's a simple fact I, 
>along with two or three others, pioneered USENET for Aryan cyber-warfare 
>techniques.  CLOC necessarily adopted the tactics we developed, and 
>largely from my experiences "codified" in "Tactics."
 
like i said, we took your ideas and improved them.  i know i'm running the
risk of people believing i'm just blowing smoke, but we know exactly what
we're up to.  we know we are going to piss a lot of people off--but we also
know there are going to be those who like us.
 
>No, Teri.  I didn't believe Quittner.  I HOPED he was lying or
>misinformed.  I gave you CLOCers the benefit of the doubt, since we are
>_supposed to be_ on the same side.  When I found out the _Time_ article
>was accurate, my heart sank and my anger grew.  I was disgusted at what I
>found.  As I said earlier, CLOC's destruction of asl is the USENET
>equivalent of raping civilians during wartime.  Regardless of what went on
>or is going on in asl now, there was NO reason CLOC should have EVER went
>there.  Period.  
 
there was plenty of reason for us to go everywhere we've been.
 
>You have hundreds, probably thousands of groups to post
>to, and you followed "Racial Theorist" over to harass and abuse some
>people who are not combatants in this Internet war. 
 
milt, your're wrong about us harassing the folks on alt.support. loneliness.
when folks read the time article and went to alt.support.loneliness, there
was not a single message from a CLOC'er harassing anybody.  and that's a fact.
 
rc
 


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/19/96 2:50 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: nclearwntr@nclearwntr.seanet.com (Teri)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 18:50:01 -0800
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
Warning: This one got me a little mad - if you don't want to get mad, too -
don't read it. 
 
>From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
>Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 00:30:57 -0500
>Subject: Re: CLOC
>
>> Excuse me, but what RC Richards and Salty write in behalf of CLOC is usually
>> complete bullshit and that's what you're seeing. If you happened to have
>> noticed, oh, maybe a month ago, there were CLOC'ers on those ngs that were
>> being friendly with others, not the crap that's going on there now. 
> 
>????
> 
>What are you trying to say, Teri?
 
I'm trying to say exactly what I said. 
 
>Is CLOC an integral organization or not?  If what "Racial Theorist" and 
>Salty say are not beneficial to our Cause, then why do you and Reuben 
>continue to support CLOC?  Reuben and I have been posting long before 
>CLOC ever came to USENET...and our posts were very effective -- _more_ 
>effective -- than CLOC's operations.
 
I have seen very few posts that Salty has made actually declaring he's a
CLOC member. Just because RC posts something doesn't mean we have to all
agree with it. Just because we're an organization doesn't mean we're all
mirror-images of one another. I support CLOC as a group. I do not
necessarily support every individual USENET posts made by members and it is
not written any where in stone that I need to or *should*. 
 
>What exactly IS CLOC, then, Teri?  Is CLOC an organization or not?  If 
>not an organization, why do you and Reuben associate with a degenerate 
>like "Racial Theorist"?
 
A group of people that get along well together that have the same basic
opinions of race. I think that's a good enough cause to be a "group." RC has
his own ideas and he can express them all he wants (remember the 1st
Amendment?). I have, in the past, spoken out against what some members were
saying, not on USENET because I rarely have time to waste there, but I still
have done it.
 
>There was a support post from your account on asl last night, buttressing 
>the campaign of "Racial Theorist."  Are you or are you not supporting 
>"RT" by promoting CLOC?
 
And it wasn't posted by me. Reuben posts from this account too. 
 
>I invite everyone to read "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET," located on
>"Aryan Crusader's Library," right next to the CLOC stuff (in fact, CLOC
>material and "Tactics" both have URLs identifying them as "CNG" material).
>I wrote "Tactics" long before CLOC, and it is clear that CLOC has adopted
>and then perverted several of my ideas from "Tactics." 
> 
>As I said, before there was CLOC, there was Kleim.  If you want to 
>consider that egotistical and arrogant, fine.  It's a simple fact I, 
>along with two or three others, pioneered USENET for Aryan cyber-warfare 
>techniques.  CLOC necessarily adopted the tactics we developed, and 
>largely from my experiences "codified" in "Tactics."
 
And, as I say again, Milton: Do you think the whole damn world revolves
around you? You think you're so damn high and mighty. You throw a tantrum
because you're not covered as much as CLOC in a measly TIME article. You say
you are the most notorious racist on the Internet... I've been here for a
year now and heard of you 3 months ago. Notorious my ass... 
 
>> >CLOC operations on inappropriate groups and CLOC typically-crude tactics
>> >end now.  Or, I will seek to put CLOC out of business, by whatever
>> >measures it takes. 
> 
>> I think that's the third or fourth time you wrote that, Milton... CLOC isn't
>> a business and you sound just like fucking Cooper! Maybe you should sit back
>> and listen to yourself. You actually *believed* the media! Excuse me while I
>> laugh at you...
> 
>No, Teri.  I didn't believe Quittner.  I HOPED he was lying or
>misinformed.  I gave you CLOCers the benefit of the doubt, since we are
>_supposed to be_ on the same side.  When I found out the _Time_ article
>was accurate, my heart sank and my anger grew.  I was disgusted at what I
>found.  As I said earlier, CLOC's destruction of asl is the USENET
>equivalent of raping civilians during wartime.  Regardless of what went on
>or is going on in asl now, there was NO reason CLOC should have EVER went
>there.  Period.  You have hundreds, probably thousands of groups to post
>to, and you followed "Racial Theorist" over to harass and abuse some
>people who are not combatants in this Internet war. 
 
Hundreds of political groups on topic? I think not. Like I said before, if
you would have gone to those ngs months ago when most of the members were
posting, you'd have seen that we were mostly friendly and ON TOPIC.
Alt.food.dennys - talking about Dennys... Alt.fan.barry-manilow - talking
about Manilow... And I have never made any attacking post without being
attacked first. The b.s. with Dyson - I don't even want to get into it, but
I'll put it straight and simple - he started it. I have sat back and watched
it, not taking sides, and he is the one creating all the problems. If we had
started it, I would say so. I am deeply disturbed that you call it "raping
of civilians." How could you be so sick? It's not even close to rape. Last
time I checked, USENET was still free from censorship of all kinds (at least
in the U. S.), and that would make cross posts and off topic discussion all
right. If you notice, almost every single ng has off-topic discussions. It
isn't uncommon. You, fighting your "own people" because they are in one
lousy ng (at least that I know of) is crazy. We aren't killing anyone, we
aren't even physically abusing anyone, and I really don't think we're
mentally abusing anyone. They don't have to stick around and read what
people write - they can even *ignore* it. Yet, the human mind doesn't allow
that, for some people, obviously. 
 
>This is nonsense.  CLOC has not done ONE thing to achieve these goals.  
>On the contrary, CLOC has done much to assure we will have a more 
>difficult time acheiving these goals and promoting their adoption among 
>the Aryan Net surfers who are presently not aligned with us.  The 
>Jewsmedia has seen to it that we have an "evil" image _without_ any 
>action on our part; CLOC has given the Jewsmedia powerful evidence that 
>(some) racists are indeed vicious and unfeeling.
 
You know what I've found, Milton, being a racist myself? Most of them *are*
vicious and unfeeling. Since when has anyone really cared what the media said?
 
>-- Milton
> 
>With friends like CLOC, who needs Abe Cooper?
 
I think you only have (had? I don't know...) one friend in CLOC anyway. I
really don't understand why you had to freak out about some little thing.
Are you bored? Or are you just not the center of everyone's attention?
 
>"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
>squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
>racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
>the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews
 
And do you really think Bob would have had a problem with CLOC? You seem to
know an awful lot about The Order. Why don't you stop and think about think
about things for a change...
 
Teri
 
 


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/19/96 5:48 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: xyz@scsn.net
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:48:54 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
milton asks:
 
>If you wish to "reclaim" groups taken from us by our opponents, why did 
>not CLOC choose soc.culture.african.american or soc.culture.jewish?  Is 
>it cowardice?  Too big of a challenge?  Is intimidating and annyoing 
>people who are depressed a bigger laugh than activities that real 
>cyber-guerrillas would engage in?
 
no, we aren't scared to go into soc.culture.african.american, but the whole
idea, which i thought we got from your manifesto, was to hit non polarized
newsgroups, milt.  as far as if anybody's scared to go into the two
newsgroups you mentioned, let's see you take your aryan corps in there and
we'll observe and maybe even learn something from you.  are you up to it?
and then if you aren't successful, CLOC will go in and clean things up.  how
about that?
 
 
milt writes:
 
>Yes, Reuben it is war.  But we are at war with the Enemy, not with 
>USENET.  And if CLOC refuses to disengage, I intend to assist the USENET 
>community in defeating you.
> 
>It's time to silence the Cuckoo CLOC.
 
milton, i can't help but think you're somewhat jealous because we've got a
better organized organization than you, and i just don't think that's any
way to be.  i think you're upset because you wrote the first usenet treatise
which CLOC has used but refined, but you didn't have the first white
supremacist internet raiding party.  as far as your organization, you have
the support of CLOC--that is, unless you insist on going up against
us--which none of us cares to see happen.  but anyway, maybe we CLOC'ers
should just sit back for awhile and watch your aryan corps in action.  what
newsgroup are you gonna hit first?
i'm being serious when i say we're willing to sit back and observe you in
action for awhile.
rc
 


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/19/96 6:57 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: xyz@scsn.net
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 01:57:09 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
milt writes:
 
>>As I said, before there was CLOC, there was Kleim.  If you want to 
>>consider that egotistical and arrogant, fine.  It's a simple fact I, 
>>along with two or three others, pioneered USENET for Aryan cyber-warfare 
>>techniques.  CLOC necessarily adopted the tactics we developed, and 
>>largely from my experiences "codified" in "Tactics."
> 
>And, as I say again, Milton: Do you think the whole damn world revolves
>around you? You think you're so damn high and mighty. You throw a tantrum
>because you're not covered as much as CLOC in a measly TIME article. You say
>you are the most notorious racist on the Internet... I've been here for a
>year now and heard of you 3 months ago. Notorious my ass... 
 
milt has been around, but for some reason he seldom posts on apw-p.  you
know, i too keep getting the idea that milt doesn't like it because CLOC got
more press than he did in the _time_ article.  sorry milt.  but like i said,
you can take solace in the idea that we did base a lot of our ideas on
yours, only we improved them.  but milt, if you're upset about how much ink
you got, think how rabbi cooper must feel.  hell, i think you got more print
than he did.
 
>>> >CLOC operations on inappropriate groups and CLOC typically-crude tactics
>>> >end now.  Or, I will seek to put CLOC out of business, by whatever
>>> >measures it takes. 
 
milt, the jews have been trying to put us out of business from the beginning.
 
>>> I think that's the third or fourth time you wrote that, Milton... CLOC isn'
t
>>> a business and you sound just like fucking Cooper! Maybe you should sit bac
k
>>> and listen to yourself. You actually *believed* the media! Excuse me while 
I
>>> laugh at you...
>> 
 
teri writes:
 
>Hundreds of political groups on topic? I think not. Like I said before, if
>you would have gone to those ngs months ago when most of the members were
>posting, you'd have seen that we were mostly friendly and ON TOPIC.
>Alt.food.dennys - talking about Dennys... Alt.fan.barry-manilow - talking
>about Manilow... And I have never made any attacking post without being
>attacked first. The b.s. with Dyson - I don't even want to get into it, but
>I'll put it straight and simple - he started it. 
 
i don't think you'll find a single post by a CLOC'er on asl attacking a
lonely person.  it is true we've gotten into some flame wars there, but they
have been with people who were there to help the lonely people.
 
 
>>With friends like CLOC, who needs Abe Cooper?
 
well milt, in saying you're gonna put us out of business, you are allying
yourself with rabbi cooper.  so CLOC could ask, 'with friends like milt, who
needs rabbi cooper?' i don't know about your internet aryan corps, but you
won't find us CLOC'ers throwing in with the jewry against you or any other
white nationalist group.  
 
hail victory!
 
rc
 


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/19/96 4:25 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: Ralph Johnson 
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 08:25:19 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
Whether Milton is right all the time is beside the point. MIlton has been 
in the fight since lots of you were in knee pants. I think Milton should 
be respected and supported for his efforts he has put in.  Disagree, 
yes, but let it remain just that. I think his motives are true to the 
cause. Argue the point, but dont call his motives in question until it is 
plain they are  a lie. Back in the days when alt.revision was big he was 
taking it from the Jews.  He doesn't need that kind of stuff from this group.


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/19/96 4:36 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:36:16 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
Teri replies to me:
 
> >> Excuse me, but what RC Richards and Salty write in behalf of CLOC is usual
ly
> >> complete bullshit and that's what you're seeing. If you happened to have
> >> noticed, oh, maybe a month ago, there were CLOC'ers on those ngs that were
> >> being friendly with others, not the crap that's going on there now. 
 
> >????
 
> >What are you trying to say, Teri?
  
> I'm trying to say exactly what I said. 
 
If it's complete bullshit, which I agree it is, why do you continue to 
associate with them by using the CLOC name?  Why not create a new name, 
or just use your own?  Reuben certainly has a respected name in the Movement.
 
> >Is CLOC an integral organization or not?  If what "Racial Theorist" and 
> >Salty say are not beneficial to our Cause, then why do you and Reuben 
> >continue to support CLOC?  Reuben and I have been posting long before 
> >CLOC ever came to USENET...and our posts were very effective -- _more_ 
> >effective -- than CLOC's operations.
  
> I have seen very few posts that Salty has made actually declaring he's a
> CLOC member. Just because RC posts something doesn't mean we have to all
> agree with it. Just because we're an organization doesn't mean we're all
> mirror-images of one another. I support CLOC as a group. I do not
> necessarily support every individual USENET posts made by members and it is
> not written any where in stone that I need to or *should*. 
 
Is it not true that "Racial Theorist" is the primary creator of CLOC?  Is 
not CLOC in essence an extention of his personality?
 
Certainly we don't have to agree with everything our comrades say, but
when a "comrade" says or does something which causes severe unnecessary
damage, and then brags aout it being "fun," I will have nothing further to
do with that "comrade." 
 
> >What exactly IS CLOC, then, Teri?  Is CLOC an organization or not?  If 
> >not an organization, why do you and Reuben associate with a degenerate 
> >like "Racial Theorist"?
  
> A group of people that get along well together that have the same basic
> opinions of race. I think that's a good enough cause to be a "group." RC has
> his own ideas and he can express them all he wants (remember the 1st
> Amendment?). I have, in the past, spoken out against what some members were
> saying, not on USENET because I rarely have time to waste there, but I still
> have done it.
 
I say again: "Racial Theorist" was posting BS to asl, but a post was made 
from your account at the same time, not sanctioning him for his actions, 
but offering "information" on what CLOC is about.  Instead of criticizing 
him for his "bullshit," your account was used to post an endorsement of 
CLOC, which any reasonable person would have perceived as support for the 
CLOC activities on the group.
 
> >There was a support post from your account on asl last night, buttressing 
> >the campaign of "Racial Theorist."  Are you or are you not supporting 
> >"RT" by promoting CLOC?
  
> And it wasn't posted by me. Reuben posts from this account too. 
 
Irrelevant.  It's your account.  Did you post ANY criticsm of "Racial 
Theorists'" actions?
 
> >I invite everyone to read "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET," located on
> >"Aryan Crusader's Library," right next to the CLOC stuff (in fact, CLOC
> >material and "Tactics" both have URLs identifying them as "CNG" material).
> >I wrote "Tactics" long before CLOC, and it is clear that CLOC has adopted
> >and then perverted several of my ideas from "Tactics." 
 
> >As I said, before there was CLOC, there was Kleim.  If you want to 
> >consider that egotistical and arrogant, fine.  It's a simple fact I, 
> >along with two or three others, pioneered USENET for Aryan cyber-warfare 
> >techniques.  CLOC necessarily adopted the tactics we developed, and 
> >largely from my experiences "codified" in "Tactics."
  
> And, as I say again, Milton: Do you think the whole damn world revolves
> around you? 
 
No, but USENET activism is still measured against my standard.
 
> You think you're so damn high and mighty. 
 
I have a solid grasp of reality, I have made great contributions to the 
effective use of the Net for our Cause, and I am fanatically committed to 
the 14 Words.  I think I have a right to be "high and mighty."
 
> You throw a tantrum because you're not covered as much as CLOC in a 
> measly TIME article.
 
"Tantrum"?
 
FYI, I _have_ gotten more publicity from the _Time_ article.  The graphic 
was the intro page to an archive of my writings.  And, my coverage was 
neutral; CLOC's was negative.  I have nothing to be jealous of CLOC for.
 
> You say you are the most notorious racist on the Internet... I've been here 
> for a year now and heard of you 3 months ago. Notorious my ass... 
 
Actually, Teri, I haven't noticed you around before about three months ago...
 
If you hadn't heard of me, you must not have visited your own companion's 
site.
 
> Hundreds of political groups on topic? I think not. 
 
Shall we start a list?  May I direct you where to get a list of USENET 
groups?
 
> Like I said before, if
> you would have gone to those ngs months ago when most of the members were
> posting, you'd have seen that we were mostly friendly and ON TOPIC.
 
HOW can racial activism be "on topic" on alt.support.loneliness?
 
And besides, we're talking about NOW, not then.
 
> Alt.fan.barry-manilow - talking about Manilow...
 
Yeah?  About what?  You are a Manilow fan I presume?
 
> And I have never made any attacking post without being attacked first. 
> The b.s. with Dyson - I don't even want to get into it, but I'll put it 
> straight and simple - he started it. 
 
Oh?  Mr. Dyson seems fairly cordial to me; he replied to my message last 
night.
 
Considering the present antics of CLOC on asl, I'm afraid I must give Mr. 
Dyson the benefit of the doubt.
 
> I am deeply disturbed that you call it "raping of civilians." How could 
> you be so sick? It's not even close to rape.
 
"Racial Theorist" calls his activities "fun."  Is it "fun" to harass and 
intimidate lonely people?
 
My raping civilians analogy stems from the fact CLOC's activities are 
having the same effect on USENET as raping civilians does in occupied 
territory during a war: it alienates people who were neutral.  And the 
literal application of "rape" to CLOC's actions is not far off: if one 
thinks making depressed people feel like shit by taking over their 
newsgroup is "fun," I'd say that it is comparable to "electronic rape" -- 
exercising power against a person for the sadistic thrill of it.
 
> Last time I checked, USENET was still free from censorship of all kinds 
> (at least in the U. S.), and that would make cross posts and off topic 
> discussion all right. 
 
Wrong.  USENET has voluntary rules, including charters for each group.  
One CAN break those rules, but doing so damages the environment of the 
USENET community.  Continued violation of those rules is corrosive to the 
structure of USENET itself.
 
You have more groups that are suitable for political discussion than you 
can post to.  WHY did you choose unsuitable groups over a group like, 
say, soc.culture.usa?
 
> If you notice, almost every single ng has off-topic discussions. It
> isn't uncommon.
 
And they are SINGULAR, mainly due to the ignorance of the poster about 
the topic of the group.  CLOC's off-topic material is repetitive and 
deliberate.
 
> You, fighting your "own people" because they are in one lousy ng (at 
> least that I know of) is crazy.
 
No, I'm trying to right a wrong.  CLOC has no business there, and I seek 
to put an end to it before more damage is done.  This is not anything 
personal against CLOC members such as yourself, Teri.
 
> We aren't killing anyone, we aren't even physically abusing anyone, and 
> I really don't think we're mentally abusing anyone.
 
I do.  Leave asl and other inappropriate groups if you are serious about 
not hurting anyone.
 
> They don't have to stick around and read what people write - they can 
> even *ignore* it. Yet, the human mind doesn't allow that, for some 
> people, obviously. 
 
How long would we tolerate it if Jews came to Stormfront and started 
posting Holocaust shit?  How much do we enjoy it when niggers come to 
APWP and post race-mixing shit?
 
The people in asl had other things to think about besides politics.
 
> >With friends like CLOC, who needs Abe Cooper?
  
> I think you only have (had? I don't know...) one friend in CLOC anyway.
 
Well, if he feels that way, I'm sorry.  I don't feel that way.
 
> I really don't understand why you had to freak out about some little thing.
> Are you bored? Or are you just not the center of everyone's attention?
 
CLOC's actions are dangerous to our operations on the Net, and someone had 
to take the responsbility of dealing with it.
 
> >"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
> >squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
> >racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
> >the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews
  
> And do you really think Bob would have had a problem with CLOC? 
 
Bob Mathews had a problem with EVERY hobbyist, non-productive organization.
 
> You seem to know an awful lot about The Order. Why don't you stop and 
> think about think about things for a change...
 
Such as?
 
-- Milton
 
 
 
 
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/19/96 4:36 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:36:51 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
"Racial Theorist" writes:
 
> >If you wish to "reclaim" groups taken from us by our opponents, why did 
> >not CLOC choose soc.culture.african.american or soc.culture.jewish?  Is 
> >it cowardice?  Too big of a challenge?  Is intimidating and annyoing 
> >people who are depressed a bigger laugh than activities that real 
> >cyber-guerrillas would engage in?
  
> no, we aren't scared to go into soc.culture.african.american, but the whole
> idea, which i thought we got from your manifesto, was to hit non polarized
> newsgroups, milt.  
 
"Tactics" specified _appropriate_ groups, not neutral non-political 
groups like asl.
 
Why didn't you take on soc.culture.usa or alt.politics.usa.misc?  
 
> as far as if anybody's scared to go into the two newsgroups you 
> mentioned, let's see you take your aryan corps in there and
> we'll observe and maybe even learn something from you.  are you up to it?
 
Already have.  During the aftermath of the O.J. Simian travesty.  Had 
enormous impact on scaa as well as afojs.  We controlled those two groups 
for nearly two weeks, and then we left when their usefulness subsided.  
If we were using CLOC tactics, however, we'd still be mired there, 
calling every one a jackass.
 
> and then if you aren't successful, CLOC will go in and clean things up.  how
> about that?
 
I guess you and I measure success in different ways.  I seek to educate 
and recruit.  You seek to insult and intimidate.  I may not be liked, but 
at least my image is respectable.  I have self-restraint, and even the 
enemy knows that.
 
> >Yes, Reuben it is war.  But we are at war with the Enemy, not with 
> >USENET.  And if CLOC refuses to disengage, I intend to assist the USENET 
> >community in defeating you.
 
> >It's time to silence the Cuckoo CLOC.
  
> milton, i can't help but think you're somewhat jealous because we've got a
> better organized organization than you, and i just don't think that's any
> way to be.  
 
Better organized organization?  If so, why isn't it having any POSITIVE
impact on USENET?  I would propose that CLOC is really an organization of
mostly hobbyists, not activists.  When you can show me where and when you
have had a productive influence on USENET, I'll acknowledge you have a
worthy organization. 
 
> i think you're upset because you wrote the first usenet treatise
> which CLOC has used but refined, but you didn't have the first white
> supremacist internet raiding party.  
 
I'm upset because CLOC is abusing the opportunity we have with USENET for 
non-productive and selfish ("fun") purposes.
 
On USENET, I have never advocated an organization, nor do I feel one is 
necessary.  That's why I call us "cyber-guerrillas."  We take on tasks 
independently, and go from there.  We don't need an organization to be 
effective.
 
> as far as your organization, you have the support of CLOC--that is, 
> unless you insist on going up against us--which none of us cares to see 
> happen.  
 
I don't have an organization.  The "Aryan Corps" are the body of USENET 
Vikings who follow my "Tactics" advice, including some CLOCers.  The 
Aryan Corps has existed for over two years.
 
> but anyway, maybe we CLOC'ers
> should just sit back for awhile and watch your aryan corps in action.  what
> newsgroup are you gonna hit first?
> i'm being serious when i say we're willing to sit back and observe you in
> action for awhile.
 
I don't believe in the tactics CLOC is using.  There is no point in going 
into a newsgroup and getting mired there, insulting and imtimidating 
people.  I've done that on APWP and APNW, but that's the type of arena 
those groups are.  I do NOT go onto mainstream groups and insult people.
 
My entire USENET strategy is to disseminate our ideas and opinions 
systematically across USENET, on appropriate groups.  I see no 
productivity coming from arguing with the freaks and Bolsheviks all the 
time; when the arguing is on non-political groups like asl, I see great 
potential harm being caused to the perception of us by non-combatants.  
We don't need to make unnecessary enemies.  
 
If you can show me that CLOC's escapades on asl and other similar groups 
has done ANYTHING productive for our Cause, then I'm prepared to 
apologize and withdraw my criticisms and warnings.
 
-- Milton
 
 
 
 
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/19/96 4:37 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:37:32 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
"Racial Theorist" writes:
 
> >>As I said, before there was CLOC, there was Kleim.  If you want to 
> >>consider that egotistical and arrogant, fine.  It's a simple fact I, 
> >>along with two or three others, pioneered USENET for Aryan cyber-warfare 
> >>techniques.  CLOC necessarily adopted the tactics we developed, and 
> >>largely from my experiences "codified" in "Tactics."
 
> >And, as I say again, Milton: Do you think the whole damn world revolves
> >around you? You think you're so damn high and mighty. You throw a tantrum
> >because you're not covered as much as CLOC in a measly TIME article. You say
> >you are the most notorious racist on the Internet... I've been here for a
> >year now and heard of you 3 months ago. Notorious my ass... 
 
> milt has been around, but for some reason he seldom posts on apw-p. 
 
Because we preach to the choir on APWP.  I have more important things on 
the rest of USENET.
 
> you know, i too keep getting the idea that milt doesn't like it because 
> CLOC got more press than he did in the _time_ article.  sorry milt. 
 
Au Contraire!  The _Time_ article gave ME more publicity than it did 
CLOC.  It not only quoted me, but used the intro to the Library of Milton 
Kleim for a centerpiece.  Tens of thousands of people could read first 
hand my writings.  And, my publicity was neutral; CLOC's was entirely 
negative.
 
> >>> >CLOC operations on inappropriate groups and CLOC typically-crude tactics
> >>> >end now.  Or, I will seek to put CLOC out of business, by whatever
> >>> >measures it takes. 
  
> milt, the jews have been trying to put us out of business from the beginning.
 
Where?  When?  Are you saying that Cooper is targetting YOU, rather than 
Don, the Alliance, Mark Phoenix, Resistance, and myself?
 
I think CLOC is the least of Cooper's concerns.  You're just providing 
him with an excuse to hit the real target. 
 
> i don't think you'll find a single post by a CLOC'er on asl attacking a
> lonely person.  it is true we've gotten into some flame wars there, but they
> have been with people who were there to help the lonely people.
 
The fact you invaded a group exclusively for lonely people is an attack 
on the people who use the group.  You have no business there.  Please 
don't give me the "we're helping lonely people BS," either.  One CLOCer 
on asl and I could believe that.  Many posts from many accounts (possibly 
front accounts for one or two people) and it's obvious your effort there 
is not to help lonely people.
 
> >>With friends like CLOC, who needs Abe Cooper?
  
> well milt, in saying you're gonna put us out of business, you are allying
> yourself with rabbi cooper.  so CLOC could ask, 'with friends like milt, who
> needs rabbi cooper?' i don't know about your internet aryan corps, but you
> won't find us CLOC'ers throwing in with the jewry against you or any other
> white nationalist group.  
 
My criticism and warning has nothing to do with allying with Cooper.  The 
Jewish Bible says anal sex is a capital offense.  Am I a Jew if I say 
faggotry is an abomination?
 
The whole point to my criticism and effort to either bring CLOC back into 
line with proper tactics, or shut them down if necessary, is to right a 
wrong, to demonstrate we are not animals who don't give a damn about 
anything besides ourselves and our ideas.  You are making us enemies who 
were not our enemies before, for no reason other than because you think 
it is "fun."
 
-- Milton
 
 
 
 
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/19/96 11:56 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: Mjollnir88@aol.com
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 18:56:40 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
In a message dated 96-01-17 22:47:02 EST, Teri writes...
 
> 
>>What CLOC is doing is unacceptable.  It's as simple as that.  Attacking 
>>non-political, "helpless" groups is the most dishonorable form of 
>>cowardice I've seen on "our side."  I was absolutely disgusted by what I 
>>saw on alt.support.loneliness.  It takes no courage or skill to do what 
>>was being done on that group.
> 
>Excuse me, but what RC Richards and Salty write in behalf of CLOC is usually
>complete bullshit and that's what you're seeing. If you happened to have
>noticed, oh, maybe a month ago, there were CLOC'ers on those ngs that were
>being friendly with others, not the crap that's going on there now. 
 
O.K.  First I want to say that I agree with Kleim in that what is happening
with CLOC must stop now.  Any "inappropriate" actions must be stopped.  If
the "bad press" is being caused by a certain group of CLOC'ers, and making
the whole organization appear corrupt, it is your duty to stop these
corruptors.  We, as Aryans, must keep our good name.  Writing bullshit posts
in ngs will get us NO WHERE, and probably take us BACKWARDS.  That would be
constituted as TREASON to your organization, the movement, and most
importantly, our race.  Redeem yourselves, or do whatever, AS LONG AS YOU END
THE BULLSHIT. 
 
>>I have made a public request for CLOC to immediately cease and desist 
>>their unproductive, inappropriate campaigns against groups they have no 
>>business posting to, _especially_ in the name of the Aryan Race.  I know 
>>there are CLOC members on this list, and they should convey my statements 
>>to their "leaders."
> 
>Leaders? What leaders? Everyone does their own thing. Kind of like
>"freedom", ya know?
 
In other words, do something about it.  The Jews must not have any more
ammunition than they already have.  They are making us look bad, whether or
not they speak the truth.  If the "bullshit" that was being posted on the ngs
never got there, the chance that any of this came up would have been slim.
 Don't blame it all on the Jew Media...they had to have something to work off
of, and they got it from your destructive posts on ngs.
 
>>What CLOC is doing is the epitomy of immaturity and hobbyism.  It does
>>_absolutely nothing_ to benefit our Cause, and does a great deal to harm
>>our image and respectability, already low due to Jewsmedia lies.  CLOC is
>>our own worst enemy.  With "friends" like CLOC, why do we need Abe
>>Cooper? 
> 
>You mean, "What RC and Salty and a few others are doing..." Whatever you
>say, Mr. Know-It-All...
 
If it's just a few of 'em, get rid of them.  It is your duty as a fellow
"CLOCer" to stop this non-sense.  
 
>>I wrote "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET" to give guidelines for 
>>building a revolutionary communication infrastructure on the Net.  I am 
>>saddened to see people are using many of my ideas to the detriment of our 
>>Race, abusing the greatest opportunity to freely disseminate our views we 
>>have ever had.
> 
>No one used your ideas and I don't even know what they are.
 
You should read them.  Anyone who posts on USENET in the name of the Aryan
Race sould read them.  I do believe they are posted in your CLOC home page.
 If not, try Reuben's page.  I'm sure it's there.
 
>Do you think the
>whole world revolves around you and when things don't go your way you have
>to throw a temper tantrum like this? 
 
"Temper tantrum"?  Must all arguments on this list, as well as within the
movement become childish?  Can't we conduct ourselves in a more ARYAN manner?
 Come on, it's not like were a bunch of dirt-bag minorities on the "Ricky
Lake Show."  Show some respect for each other.  If this immature manner must
be continued in EVERY one of our discussions, I'm afraid that the chance for
our race's survival is slim.
 
>You, sir, I mean "boy", are the
>immature one.
 
See above.
 
>>CLOC operations on inappropriate groups and CLOC typically-crude tactics
>>end now.  Or, I will seek to put CLOC out of business, by whatever
>>measures it takes. 
>> 
>>-- Milton
 
I stand with Kleim.  This treason must be stopped.  NOW.  CLOC is an
excellent organization.  Clean it up.  Redeem yourselves.  Take the
inititive, Teri.  Make CLOC a productive organization.  We need you guys.
 But, if CLOC continues to be a threat to our existence on the Net, it must
leave.  
 
>I think that's the third or fourth time you wrote that, Milton... CLOC isn't
>a business and you sound just like fucking Cooper! Maybe you should sit back
>and listen to yourself. You actually *believed* the media! Excuse me while I
>laugh at you...
 
> Teri
>"Happy Newt Year!"
>Loyal CLOC'er                 
 
My Honor is Called Loyalty
 
Conrad


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/19/96 4:38 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 11:38:09 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
"Racial Theorist" writes:
 
> >> >I have made a public request for CLOC to immediately cease and desist 
> >> >their unproductive, inappropriate campaigns against groups they have no 
> >> >business posting to, _especially_ in the name of the Aryan Race.  I know 
> >> >there are CLOC members on this list, and they should convey my statements
 
> >> >to their "leaders."
  
> >> Leaders? What leaders? Everyone does their own thing. Kind of like
> >> "freedom", ya know?
  
> that's exactly right.  there are no leaders in CLOC.
 
Then how can you have an "organization"?  Without leaders, all you have 
is a network, an alliance.  You especially cannot have a "better 
organized organization than [me]."
 
> >What exactly IS CLOC, then, Teri?  Is CLOC an organization or not?  If 
> >not an organization, why do you and Reuben associate with a degenerate 
> >like "Racial Theorist"?
  
> excuse me, bud, but i'm not a degenerate.
 
Some of your opinions make it sound like you are.
 
Can you tell us about having sexual crushes on mullato women?
 
Perhaps you could tell us what you meant by the recent post speaking 
fondly of the fact the _Time_ article was on "page 69"?
 
Perhaps you could explain why you need to call your opponent "jackass" in 
most of your posts?
 
> >> >I wrote "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET" to give guidelines for 
> >> >building a revolutionary communication infrastructure on the Net.  I am 
> >> >saddened to see people are using many of my ideas to the detriment of our
 
> >> >Race, abusing the greatest opportunity to freely disseminate our views we
 
> >> >have ever had.
  
> and basically, milt, your tactics didn't work.  ok, tell you what, let us
> see you put them to use in some newsgroup, and we'll just observe, and we'll
> see how effective your technique is.  
 
My tactics have as their ends much different goals from your own, and 
therefore cannot be judged by _your_ standards.
 
> there are reasons we do things like we
> do that we are not going to disclose in public--but don't think we don't
> have a plan.
 
What a cop-out.
 
My name is "Theorist, Racial Theorist."  Agent 000 can't reveal his 
"secrets."
 
> >I invite everyone to read "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET," located on
> >"Aryan Crusader's Library," right next to the CLOC stuff (in fact, CLOC
> >material and "Tactics" both have URLs identifying them as "CNG" material).
> >I wrote "Tactics" long before CLOC, and it is clear that CLOC has adopted
> >and then perverted several of my ideas from "Tactics." 
  
> and basically, milt, we've improved on your tactics.  plain and simple.
 
Like invading non-political groups?  I'm sure you've encouraged lots of
people to investigate and consider our ideas with your actions.  All
you've really done is "confirm" in most people's minds that what they see
on Jewraldo about racists is absolutely true. 
 
> >As I said, before there was CLOC, there was Kleim.
  
> and i think this is a lot of your problem, milt, and this why you think you
> have to be in competition with CLOC.  basically, we've improved on your
> ideas.  some of your ideas were good, but where were you going with them?
 
I'm in competition with no one...except maybe myself.  :-)
 
My ideas are still the cutting-edge of "marketing techniques" for USENET.
 
Please _demonstrate_ how you've "improved" on my tactics by telling us 
how you have advanced the Cause of Aryan racial salavation with typical 
CLOC activities.
 
> where was your internet organization?  
 
Don't need one.  USENET's characteristics preclude the necessity of an 
organization.
 
CLOC is mostly designed to make it's "members" feel important.
 
> sure, us CLOC'ers do bullshit around
> some, but we've got about 12 people in CLOC now.  we started with three--me,
> reuben, and marlow.
 
Big deal.  We want accomplishments, not numbers.
 
> and i also want to say that i do not care to duke it out with you in public
> on the usenet, but if that's what you want to do, then that's what we'll do.
> personally, though, i think it's ridiculous.
 
I'm trying to avoid having a direct confrontation with CLOC.  I would 
prefer CLOC understands its errors, and stands down from the activities 
which are harming our USENET activism.  I'm not at all fond of using my 
arsenal against people who claim to be on our side.
 
> >If you want to 
> >consider that egotistical and arrogant, fine.  It's a simple fact I, 
> >along with two or three others, pioneered USENET for Aryan cyber-warfare 
> >techniques.  CLOC necessarily adopted the tactics we developed, and 
> >largely from my experiences "codified" in "Tactics."
  
> like i said, we took your ideas and improved them.  i know i'm running the
> risk of people believing i'm just blowing smoke, but we know exactly what
> we're up to.  we know we are going to piss a lot of people off--but we also
> know there are going to be those who like us.
 
You ARE blowing smoke.
 
We need to see demonstrable accomplishments from your activities, before 
those of us who can presently see none will approve of your actions.
 
> there was plenty of reason for us to go everywhere we've been.
 
Please tell us.  Or is that "secret," too?
 
> >You have hundreds, probably thousands of groups to post
> >to, and you followed "Racial Theorist" over to harass and abuse some
> >people who are not combatants in this Internet war. 
  
> milt, your're wrong about us harassing the folks on alt.support. loneliness.
> when folks read the time article and went to alt.support.loneliness, there
> was not a single message from a CLOC'er harassing anybody.  and that's a fact
.
 
Let's say you're being honest here.  That still does not excuse the fact 
that CLOC WAS harrassing asl.  Are you prepared to make amends to the 
people who you chased off of asl?
 
-- Milton
 
 
 
 
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews


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Subject:     CLOC
Sent:        1/19/96 11:59 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bn946@freenet.carleton.ca (Les Griswold)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 18:59:27 -0500
Subject: CLOC
 
From: nclearwntr@nclearwntr.seanet.com (Teri)
Date: Thu, 18 Jan 1996 18:50:01 -0800
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
Warning: This one got me a little mad - if you don't want to get mad, too -
don't read it. 
 
(snip)
 
>>Is CLOC an integral organization or not?  If what "Racial Theorist" and 
>>Salty say are not beneficial to our Cause, then why do you and Reuben 
>>continue to support CLOC?  Reuben and I have been posting long before 
>>CLOC ever came to USENET...and our posts were very effective -- _more_ 
>>effective -- than CLOC's operations.
 
>I have seen very few posts that Salty has made actually declaring he's a
>CLOC member. Just because RC posts something doesn't mean we have to all
>agree with it. Just because we're an organization doesn't mean we're all
>mirror-images of one another. I support CLOC as a group. I do not
>necessarily support every individual USENET posts made by members and it is
>not written any where in stone that I need to or *should*. 
 
But you obviously see nothing wrong with CLOC going into NGs where they
obviously have no interest and posting.
 
>>What exactly IS CLOC, then, Teri?  Is CLOC an organization or not?  If 
>>not an organization, why do you and Reuben associate with a degenerate 
>>like "Racial Theorist"?
 
>A group of people that get along well together that have the same basic
>opinions of race. I think that's a good enough cause to be a "group." RC has
>his own ideas and he can express them all he wants (remember the 1st
>Amendment?). I have, in the past, spoken out against what some members were
>saying, not on USENET because I rarely have time to waste there, but I still
>have done it.
 
There is ONE reason, and ONE reason alone, to join or found a group:  to
fight for the White race.  Anything else is hobbyism.
 
>>There was a support post from your account on asl last night, buttressing 
>>the campaign of "Racial Theorist."  Are you or are you not supporting 
>>"RT" by promoting CLOC?
 
>And it wasn't posted by me. Reuben posts from this account too. 
 
Here's a hint for you, Teri:  YOU are responsible for whatever is posted
under your account.  If you can't, or won't, support what another CLOCer
(even your fiancee/husband) has to say, then don't let him use your account.
 
Geez, I can see that he can expect a LOT of support from you in the future
when things get sticky.  What if he shoots a negro who was going to rape
you?  I can see it now:  "REUBEN shot him, not me!"
 
>>I invite everyone to read "On Tactics and Strategy for USENET," located on
>>"Aryan Crusader's Library," right next to the CLOC stuff (in fact, CLOC
>>material and "Tactics" both have URLs identifying them as "CNG" material).
>>I wrote "Tactics" long before CLOC, and it is clear that CLOC has adopted
>>and then perverted several of my ideas from "Tactics." 
> 
>>As I said, before there was CLOC, there was Kleim.  If you want to 
>>consider that egotistical and arrogant, fine.  It's a simple fact I, 
>>along with two or three others, pioneered USENET for Aryan cyber-warfare 
>>techniques.  CLOC necessarily adopted the tactics we developed, and 
>>largely from my experiences "codified" in "Tactics."
 
>And, as I say again, Milton: Do you think the whole damn world revolves
>around you? You think you're so damn high and mighty. You throw a tantrum
>because you're not covered as much as CLOC in a measly TIME article. You say
>you are the most notorious racist on the Internet... I've been here for a
>year now and heard of you 3 months ago. Notorious my ass... 
 
Oh, for the love of...
 
Teri, I can hardly believe the depths to which you have sunk in your
argument supporting CLOC.  Of all the people on the 'Net, Milton is the
LEAST likely to care about the jewsmedia.  That was a truly low blow.
 
>>No, Teri.  I didn't believe Quittner.  I HOPED he was lying or
>>misinformed.  I gave you CLOCers the benefit of the doubt, since we are
>>_supposed to be_ on the same side.  When I found out the _Time_ article
>>was accurate, my heart sank and my anger grew.  I was disgusted at what I
>>found.  As I said earlier, CLOC's destruction of asl is the USENET
>>equivalent of raping civilians during wartime.  Regardless of what went on
>>or is going on in asl now, there was NO reason CLOC should have EVER went
>>there.  Period.  You have hundreds, probably thousands of groups to post
>>to, and you followed "Racial Theorist" over to harass and abuse some
>>people who are not combatants in this Internet war. 
 
>Hundreds of political groups on topic? I think not. Like I said before, if
>you would have gone to those ngs months ago when most of the members were
>posting, you'd have seen that we were mostly friendly and ON TOPIC.
>Alt.food.dennys - talking about Dennys... Alt.fan.barry-manilow - talking
>about Manilow... And I have never made any attacking post without being
>attacked first. The b.s. with Dyson - I don't even want to get into it, but
>I'll put it straight and simple - he started it. I have sat back and watched
>it, not taking sides, and he is the one creating all the problems. If we had
>started it, I would say so.
 
How childish.  So, since Dyson engages in some childish behaviour, it's
okay for you to, as well?
 
>I am deeply disturbed that you call it "raping
>of civilians." How could you be so sick? It's not even close to rape. Last
>time I checked, USENET was still free from censorship of all kinds (at least
>in the U. S.), and that would make cross posts and off topic discussion all
>right. If you notice, almost every single ng has off-topic discussions. It
>isn't uncommon. You, fighting your "own people" because they are in one
>lousy ng (at least that I know of) is crazy. We aren't killing anyone, we
>aren't even physically abusing anyone, and I really don't think we're
>mentally abusing anyone.
 
The people in a.s.l would disagree - in fact, ARE disagreeing.  So where's
the high and mighty concern for them that RC keeps talking about?
 
Teri, you really need to learn to distinguish between ACTUALLY DOING
SOMETHING POSITIVE, and just sitting around and making yourself noticed by
being annoying.
 
Les
 
 
--
"Any damn fool can learn from his own experience, but it takes a wise man
to learn from someone else's experience."
                -- someone


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Subject:     CLOC
Sent:        1/20/96 12:23 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bn946@freenet.carleton.ca (Les Griswold)
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 19:23:24 -0500
Subject: CLOC
 
From: xyz@scsn.net
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 1996 00:48:54 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
milton asks:
 
>>If you wish to "reclaim" groups taken from us by our opponents, why did 
>>not CLOC choose soc.culture.african.american or soc.culture.jewish?  Is 
>>it cowardice?  Too big of a challenge?  Is intimidating and annyoing 
>>people who are depressed a bigger laugh than activities that real 
>>cyber-guerrillas would engage in?
 
>no, we aren't scared to go into soc.culture.african.american, but the whole
>idea, which i thought we got from your manifesto, was to hit non polarized
>newsgroups, milt. 
 
Must be that new English.  I didn't know that "non-polarized" meant
"inappropriate".
 
>as far as if anybody's scared to go into the two
>newsgroups you mentioned, let's see you take your aryan corps in there and
>we'll observe and maybe even learn something from you.  are you up to it?
>and then if you aren't successful, CLOC will go in and clean things up.  how
>about that?
 
milt writes:
 
>>Yes, Reuben it is war.  But we are at war with the Enemy, not with 
>>USENET.  And if CLOC refuses to disengage, I intend to assist the USENET 
>>community in defeating you.
> 
>>It's time to silence the Cuckoo CLOC.
 
>milton, i can't help but think you're somewhat jealous because we've got a
>better organized organization than you,
 
Better than the National Alliance?!?  You ARE dreaming, boy.
 
>and i just don't think that's any
>way to be.  i think you're upset because you wrote the first usenet treatise
>which CLOC has used but refined, but you didn't have the first white
>supremacist internet raiding party.  as far as your organization, you have
>the support of CLOC--that is, unless you insist on going up against
>us--which none of us cares to see happen.  but anyway, maybe we CLOC'ers
>should just sit back for awhile and watch your aryan corps in action.  what
>newsgroup are you gonna hit first?
>i'm being serious when i say we're willing to sit back and observe you in
>action for awhile.
 
RC, it's getting increasingly hard to determine WHEN you're being serious,
and when you're just playing word-games, like you do in a.s.l to defend
your presence there.  Regardless of WHO started "talking about CLOC" in
a.s.l, you guys are as out of place there as Birkenstock sandals at an
opera.
 
Les
 
--
"Any damn fool can learn from his own experience, but it takes a wise man
to learn from someone else's experience."
                -- someone


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/20/96 12:54 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: semidas@svlhp88.scs.philips.com
Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 16:54:59 PST
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
As a neutral party to this thread, I would like to ask something from BOTH
sides.  I, and I'm sure many others here, were not privy to the postings CLOC
parties made into asl, etc.  In order to enlighted the rest of us, why not
post copies the postings CLOC made in these groups on this list?  Milton could
provide the egregious examples and CLOC people demonstrate their "techniques"
in the light of day, so to speak.  I think this would benefit us all if done
civilly.  For Don's sake don't be voluminous ad tedium.
 
Racist is a Racist does.
 
Beowulf


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/20/96 7:01 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: salty@gate.net
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 14:01:55 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
Is stormfront now "Politically Correct" also?  White males can
no longer express views that conflict with liberals, jews, and
minorities.  Are we to refrain from flaming these people when
they post radical ideas.  If Cloc shook up a few subhumans, 
what's the big deal!  
 
 


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/20/96 11:25 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: xyz@scsn.net
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 06:25:07 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
rc: 
>>milton, i can't help but think you're somewhat jealous because we've got a
>>better organized organization than you,
 
les:
>Better than the National Alliance?!?  You ARE dreaming, boy.
 
of course not better organized than national alliance--but better organized
than the aryan internet corps.  i wouldn't have come here and addressed the
things milt was saying about us in public, except i just had to.  and i've
said something.  now if milt would just tell us where his aryan internet
corps is going to start posting messages.
 
rc
 


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/20/96 12:36 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 07:36:53 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
>From: semidas@svlhp88.scs.philips.com
>Date: Fri, 19 Jan 96 16:54:59 PST
>Subject: Re: CLOC
 
>As a neutral party to this thread, I would like to ask something from BOTH
>sides.  I, and I'm sure many others here, were not privy to the postings CLOC
>parties made into asl, etc.  In order to enlighted the rest of us, why not
>post copies the postings CLOC made in these groups on this list?  Milton could
>provide the egregious examples and CLOC people demonstrate their "techniques"
>in the light of day, so to speak.  I think this would benefit us all if done
>civilly.  For Don's sake don't be voluminous ad tedium.
 
I will post only one example of the utter stupidity and obnoxiousness that
CLOC has engaged in on asl, so as not to overload the stormfront server
with messages. 
 
However, ONE post from CLOC does not present the whole picture, nor could
even five (anymore than one or five photos of a car wreck can explain all
the details).  One must GO to asl, and see what is/was happening.  For a more
proper investigation, one might wish to use DejaNews to see some of CLOC's
earlier antics before I made my first statement on this matter.
 
-- Milton
 
 
I presume this post is either from another CLOC member, or possibly from
yet another of "Racial Theorist's" phony name front accounts.  It follows
the pattern of posts made by CLOC members using both real and bogus accounts:
 
From: quarantony@aol.com (Quarantony)
Newsgroups: alt.support.loneliness
Subject: In Defense of Mr. Richards
Date: 19 Jan 1996 13:34:56 -0500
Message-ID: <4doo8g$nb3@newsbf02.news.aol.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf02.mail.aol.com
 
I have been lurking for a long, long time, and I feel that it is time I
said something.
 
Alt.support.loneliness used to be a moderately popular group before CLOC
entered the scene. Now it's an immensely popular group.
 
Seeing the members of CLOC reach out to help the lonely people on the
internet has reaffirmed my faith in humanity. Sure some of us might
disagree with some of their beliefs--but hey, we all have opinions that
others may not like.
 
But the point is, CLOC came in and tried to help the best they could. That
alone is enough.
 
Thank you, R. C. Richards. You have made a difference in this lonely
person's life.
 
 
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/20/96 5:18 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bn946@freenet.carleton.ca (Les Griswold)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 12:18:43 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
>From: xyz@scsn.net
>Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 06:25:07 -0500
>Subject: Re: CLOC
 
>les:
>>Better than the National Alliance?!?  You ARE dreaming, boy.
> 
>of course not better organized than national alliance--but better organized
>than the aryan internet corps.  i wouldn't have come here and addressed the
>things milt was saying about us in public, except i just had to.  and i've
>said something.  now if milt would just tell us where his aryan internet
>corps is going to start posting messages.
 
Why?  So you can come charging in like the U.S. cavalry (in YOUR mind,
anyway), to "rescue" us when the heat gets too heavy?  Give us all a break.
 
Les
 
--
"Any damn fool can learn from his own experience, but it takes a wise man
to learn from someone else's experience."
                -- someone


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/20/96 7:43 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 14:43:27 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
"Racial Theorist" writes:
 
>of course not better organized than national alliance--but better organized
>than the aryan internet corps.  i wouldn't have come here and addressed the
>things milt was saying about us in public, except i just had to.  and i've
>said something.  now if milt would just tell us where his aryan internet
>corps is going to start posting messages.
 
Davey's trying a little game, but it won't work. 
 
LONG before you ever came around, "Racial Theorist," I've been posting to
dozens of groups in a systematic way.  My comrades and I constitute the
Aryan Corps, and we've actually _done_ something that has helped the Aryan
Race.  Too bad CLOC can't (honestly) say that.
 
If you have an obsessive need to _see_ my posts, use DejaNews to find out
where I've been posting to over the past few months.
 
You still haven't answered:
 
1) Why are you attracted to mullatto women?
 
2) What did you mean when you spoke fondly of the _Time_ article being on 
   page 69?
 
3) What has CLOC done to advance the survival of Aryan Race?
 
-- Milton
 
 
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/20/96 11:54 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: Mjollnir88@aol.com
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 18:54:34 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
In a message dated 96-01-19 01:39:21 EST, you write:
 
> 
>>Is CLOC an integral organization or not?  If what "Racial Theorist" and 
>>Salty say are not beneficial to our Cause, then why do you and Reuben 
>>continue to support CLOC?  Reuben and I have been posting long before 
>>CLOC ever came to USENET...and our posts were very effective -- _more_ 
>>effective -- than CLOC's operations.
> 
>I have seen very few posts that Salty has made actually declaring he's a
>CLOC member. Just because RC posts something doesn't mean we have to all
>agree with it. Just because we're an organization doesn't mean we're all
>mirror-images of one another. I support CLOC as a group. I do not
>necessarily support every individual USENET posts made by members and it is
>not written any where in stone that I need to or *should*. 
> 
 
Does this matter?  RC and Salty are giving CLOC and the Aryan race a terrible
reputation, and giving the Jews ammunition for censorship.  You are, directly
or indirectly, connected with RC and Salty, and that means that you have a
responsibility to seperate youselves from them.  This goes for everyone else
in the movement...we are all indirectly connected (at least in the eyes of
the media) to RC, Salty, and CLOC...it is our duty to put an end to any
actions that harm the movement and, most importantly, the future for White
children.  
 
Keep the 14 words in mind...they are words for every white man and woman to
live by.  They are a sacred vow, placed upon each of our heads after birth- a
vow originating from the beginnings of our race, lasting through the times
when our great warrior-ancestors ruled the earth, and to exist forever-more.
 
 
Blood and Honor...14 WORDS FOREVER!
 
Conrad


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/22/96 4:52 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: klokan@ix.netcom.com (Ivan Matchaszoff )
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 20:52:34 -0800
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
You wrote: 
>
>From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
>Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 16:21:05 -0500
>Subject: Re: CLOC
> 
>>From: salty@gate.net
>>Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 14:01:55 -0500
>>Subject: Re: CLOC
> 
>>Is stormfront now "Politically Correct" also?  White males can
>>no longer express views that conflict with liberals, jews, and
>>minorities.  Are we to refrain from flaming these people when
>>they post radical ideas.  If Cloc shook up a few subhumans, 
>>what's the big deal!  
> 
>CLOC did not attack "subhumans," Salty.  CLOC attacked a group that 
was
>populated mostly by Aryans.
> 
>CLOC did not attack people advocating "radical ideas."  CLOC attacked
>readers of a newsgroup that had nothing to do with politics.
> 
>CLOC had hundreds or thousands of other venues where which to attack 
the
>Enemy.  "Racial Theorist" took CLOC to an inappropriate group instead.
> 
> 
>BTW, Padgett, maybe you'd like to explain why CLOC has done nothing to
>assist in the creation of rec.music.white-power?  Is harassing people 
on
>asl more important than activism on news.groups in favor of rmwp?
> 
> 
>-- Milton
 
 
 Would someone tell me what group that CLOC flamed in the usenet to get 
this much crap flinging ,, I tried to look in alt.support.lonliness
 
 thanx klokan


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/22/96 1:58 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: Marcus Aurelius 
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 20:58:14 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
The movement should be built on the love of our race, 
not the hatred of others. 
                -MP
 
Censorship is their goal, don't hand it to them. 


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Subject:     Re: Racism and SPAM & CLOC
Sent:        1/22/96 12:29 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: AryanGar@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 19:29:05 -0500
Subject:        Re: Racism and SPAM & CLOC
 
Sorry that that post of mine was sent before, rewriting or reviewing.
 
I have a few house guests who used my computer to send e-mail.  They were
unaware that I had this sitting in the que from last night (when I jotted out
a few ideas, got to tired, wanted to fix up & add more in the morning, not to
mention spell check..).  Well, my comrade did a flash session & it was sent
out as is...  sorry for it's construction, but if you wheedle around with it
a little in it's half assed state you can find my point & stand on
the subject..
 
And for all of you out there.  I have found a great source, private, limited
in size for old German crests, medals...  I need to get a book on what they
all are but I did buy a few yesterday.  If you have or know of a good book
that outlines info, value, on this stuff please share it with me &/or  the
list..  And if there is some special thing you are looking for describe it so
I can make a visual picture of it.  I have no idea what they are, I just
memorized all I saw yesterday. 
 
3 comrades of mine who were all at the concert in Cleveland say HI !!!!,
 
Kris Y & Phil B  (who brought their bull dog to the show)  Phil B is now in
jail after his railroading court date & the help of a few once thought loyal,
now proven traitors, liars, pussy, backstabbers).  
 
Byron (from the story in Resistance issue 4 p. 40) He is the one that took
the donkey from the circus truck, took it up 3 flights of stairs & started to
ride it w/ his buds from BFG &
Centurion.  He also woke George up in the middle of the night to say "hey,
George kiss my ass.  really, see..."  I just saw the pics & boy are they
funny.  George you look pretty cute for just waking up... really...  
 
If any of you know these persons & wish to send mail.. I am the contact
account at this time until we get Byron up & running in a month, & Christ is
SOL since Phil is unjustly locked up & stuck paying reparations to the nigger
that started the fight.
 
And to the 3 good NA comrades that just joined this list...  a big NA
greeting..  
 
Stay true to the Fire With-in,
 
AryanGar


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Subject:     Re: Racism and SPAM & CLOC
Sent:        1/21/96 8:40 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: AryanGar@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 15:40:24 -0500
Subject: Re: Racism and SPAM & CLOC
 
In a message dated 96-01-20 02:54:17 EST, you write:
 
>Racism is like SPAM:
>1) Both spread easily.
>2) You don't have to have white bread to enjoy them.
>3) Both are great with crackers.
>4) You can slice, dice, & assemble them to make them appealing to the tastes
of any social class or situation.
>5) Neither is liked by the jews.
>6) You can have them anytime--morning, noon, or night.
>...others?
> 
>Rudolf Koebel, E.h.
>Oberdienstleiter
 
But I don't like Spam.  (it leaves a metalic taste in my
mouth...yuck...though I will admit it is in my survival kit....but I will
have to be on the verge of starvation before I break into it....rather eat
bark..)
 
I also don't like all this petty childish infighting.  I do see a purpose in
straightening out misdirected youth though.  And, this is a touchy area but
it has to be done.
 
I have been working lately with alot of "skin head" types.  I have been
trying to get them to explain what their ideology is & how they plan on
acheiveing what ever goals they have set for themselves.   I have found that
for them it is sometimes very difficult for them to seperate there love of a
"counter culture" & there quick sense of "stomp it & that will fix it".
 
When you really get them down to planning out what they want, along with what
our truths are, there really in only on true path to take as I see it.  That
is for them to join a larger more organized more deliberate force.  The
National Alliance is the only force world wide that is fighting everyday for
our ideology.  It fights in the courts battles which effect us all.  
 
To have a few youths ,that do not yet understand the things it has taken many
of us years to learn, destroy & put at risk all of our gains.  We all know
that sooner or latter the Zogg devils will finally quash any facade of
freedoms they pruportatly "let" us have. phones will all be taped (via
legislation they are presently pushing & they just do it anyways), E-mail
that will be intercepted (via legislation they are presently pushing & they
just do it anyways), Web pages & ftp sites banned, free speech of our kind
will be made punishable (via legislation they are presently pushing & they
just do it anyways, & many of our European comrades feel this blade all to
well),  To bring any sort of unwanted attention on our just now sprouting
internet triumphs is, foolish, childish impudence, & will destroy our well
thought out plans for the future.  Don't let a youthful need for imediate
conquest, ensure the great victory will be impeeded.  Don't let Ego & Fooly
disarm us in such a wreckless manner.  Resources are the keys to victory.  


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Subject:     CLOC and Time
Sent:        1/21/96 8:01 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: nobody@valhalla (Anonymous)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 14:01:08 -0600
Subject: CLOC and Time
 
 
It would appear that the antics of a few members of CLOC have handed the
Jewsmedia a minor weapon to hurt the nationalist presence on the net. It
has also provided a timely lesson to those engaged in awakening the 
white man from his slumbers, on how to behave properly in front of a 
global audience.
 
Although the article was well balanced it gave the after-taste of a 
bunch of unpleasant characters bullying helpless people, "It's 
frightening because these [lonely] people are at the lowest point
in their life... "Racial Theorist," says his organization doesn't mean 
any real harm: "What this thing is about is having fun. And shock 
value." 
 
What some nationalists don't seem to understand is that the people of
the internet are, generally speaking, of above average intelligence.
A large number of internet subscribers are academic institutions, and
their students may very well take an interest in nationalism. However
if they see 'jokers' and insensitive individuals (who appear as an 
organisation) upsetting people on inappropriate newsgroups, it may 
very well outrage their feelings - and destroy any budding sympathy 
they may have had with the legitimate concerns of nationalists.
 
It seems ok for people to have a good row with the idiots who try to
spoil apnw etc., but on other groups, self-control, intelligent 
arguments (backed up with sources) and a refusal to be drawn into 
ignorant slanging matches is sensible.
 
Your Jew opponents, and their stooges, delight in trying to make fools
of nationalists - using the underhand method of political correctness:
the opponent is never answered; he is discredited.
 
Apnw may be a place for fun, but what is dangerous is that 
misbehaviour gives ammunition to the 'synagogue of Satan' who are the
real foe. It is people like Simon Wiesenthal who are the true danger
to free speech. They wish to use any and all tactics to ensure that the
racial nationalist position is suppressed. Intelligent people will look
at all sides of an argument, provided it is properly presented. The 
'synagogue' knows this. They are afraid of the liberals, who might see
the positive message in racial nationalism/separation.
 
On the net, it is an information struggle - the Wisenthal Centre, in 
using negative terminology, "the rapidly expanding presence of 
organized hate groups on the Internet", deliberately attempts to 
manipulate the well-intentioned liberal conscience. For who is in favour
of hate - as a mode of living? People want positive 'good' programs for
the community. 
 
You are up against the most powerful, organized, force - which has its
own goal of dominion. A dominion over a multi-racial, directionless mob,
which has no sense of its past or any concept of a future. They wish to
destroy the continuity of all peoples, with the noted exception of
'the chosen ones'.
 
One way to combat this evil is to produce positive images, arguments, 
and to get the message across to non-whites that they are just as much
in danger from a Jewish, One World, tyranny as the whites are.
 
The Jews control by a 'divide and rule' strategy. All the peoples of 
the world must unite politically (not racially) to combat the menace.
(Only the white community is 'friends' with the enemy - isn't it 
strange that they don't get on well elsewhere? That's because non-
whites can't be taken in!).
 
The 'West' is conditioned from top to bottom with Jewish ideas -
Judeo-Communism, Judeo-Capitalism, Judeo-Christianity, Judeo-Satanism.
They dominate virtually all of the established ideas of the West, but 
they don't dominate the rest of the worlds thought processes and 
racial/cultural traditions. (Understand the Islamic peoples who are
continuously at war with the enemy. See people like Farrakhan as 
potential covert allies.) 
 
The internet has the possibility of becoming a central component in 
a global freedom movement. If you misuse this opportunity it is your
fault. Wiesenthal & co. have seen the potential of this medium to 
upset their plans, and they will shut you down, if they can fool the
rest of the net citizens into supporting them.
 
On a more postive note, the large number of responses from members
of the public in visiting nationalist web pages, since the article,
shows the tremendous potential of the net. If you make sure your
pages are filled with non-abusive info. great progress may be made.
 
People are sick and tired of the self-important, self-chosen ones. 
Make sure they get the ideas they need, in the format THEY understand.
 
Alles gegen Juden.
 
From an observer. 
 
-- 

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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/22/96 12:45 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: Joe Bunkley 
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 19:45:03 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
> From: salty@gate.net
>  
> Is stormfront now "Politically Correct" also?  White males can
> no longer express views that conflict with liberals, jews, and
> minorities.  Are we to refrain from flaming these people when
> they post radical ideas.  If Cloc shook up a few subhumans, 
> what's the big deal!  
 
Dear Salty,
        I will tell you what is the big deal.  Many folks have sacrificed 
quite a lot to maintain their White National presence on the Internet.  I 
personally have been fired from my job because of my web page and other 
net activity.  The Net is the greatest opportunity our Folk have had in 
decades to present our racial ideas.  This freedom is tenuous at best.  
Already the thought police want to remove that right.  
        You, Salty, and the rest of you CLOCers, are endangering me, my 
race, and my comrades.  I will not allow you to continue without a 
fight.  If you continue, I will begin action to halt your activity.  Your 
continued action will place you and CLOC completely outside our movement 
and our race.  It is that simple.  Make your decision. 
 
14words+14words+14words+14words+14words+14words+14words+14words+14words+14
14                                                                      14
14              FOURTEEN WORDS !             |  I am sincerely yours,   14    
14   "We must secure the existence of our    |  Joe Bunkley             14
14  People, and a future for White children."|  gs02jwb@panther.gsu.edu 14
14                                                                      14
14                The Coming Fall Of The American Empire                14
14                     http://www2.gsu.edu/~gs02jwb                     14
14                                                                      14
14words+14words+14words+14words+14words+14words+14words+14words+14words+14
 
 
 
 


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/21/96 9:21 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bb748@freenet.carleton.ca (Milton Kleim)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 16:21:05 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
>From: salty@gate.net
>Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 14:01:55 -0500
>Subject: Re: CLOC
 
>Is stormfront now "Politically Correct" also?  White males can
>no longer express views that conflict with liberals, jews, and
>minorities.  Are we to refrain from flaming these people when
>they post radical ideas.  If Cloc shook up a few subhumans, 
>what's the big deal!  
 
CLOC did not attack "subhumans," Salty.  CLOC attacked a group that was
populated mostly by Aryans.
 
CLOC did not attack people advocating "radical ideas."  CLOC attacked
readers of a newsgroup that had nothing to do with politics.
 
CLOC had hundreds or thousands of other venues where which to attack the
Enemy.  "Racial Theorist" took CLOC to an inappropriate group instead.
 
 
BTW, Padgett, maybe you'd like to explain why CLOC has done nothing to
assist in the creation of rec.music.white-power?  Is harassing people on
asl more important than activism on news.groups in favor of rmwp?
 
 
-- Milton
 
 
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the White
racialist organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only
the Alliance has the potential to bring us to victory!"  -- Bob Mathews


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/21/96 6:58 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: Mjollnir88@aol.com
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 13:58:22 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
In a message dated 96-01-21 12:24:05 EST, SALTY  writes:
 
> If Cloc shook up a few subhumans, what's the big deal!  
 
The Big Deal:
 
YOU ARE COMMITING AN ACT OF TREASON!
 
Over and over we take one step forward, and then the Jews force us two steps
back...
Salty, RC, and other "CLOCers" have been posting inappropriate remarks in
inappropriate newsgroups.  The Jewsmedia picked up on that and used it as
further ammunition towards its mission of Net censorship.  
 
It's not hard to understand...CLOC is HARMFUL to our cause.  Through
'indirect' actions,  these hobbyists who post for "fun" have participated in
an act of treason to their race.  The movement can not survive if we do
things haphazardly and without thinking...that is NOT the Aryan warrior's
way.  A true warrior strategized before he attacked, not just throwing
whatever assets he had at the enemy, hoping to defeat him.  A true warrior,
when using common sense, was able to defeat the enemy WITHOUT harming any
chances for a bright future for his family and race.  We have seen that some
CLOCers ARE NOT true warriors, but in reality, hobbyists who threaten the
well-being of our movement and our race.  It is the responsibility of the
"true warriors" of CLOC to end the nonsense and remove those hobbyists who
are commiting acts of treason.
 
The internet and its privelages are one of the most useful tools of our
struggle today.  We must use it right so as not to loose our privelages of
staying online.  "Shaking up a few subhumans" will not maintain this right;
it will, most likely, take this right away.  This would be most devestating
to our movement.
 
I would just hope that people sit back and consider what they are actually
"doing" for our movement.  Why are you doing it?  Is it for your race, your
kin, and your heritage?  Or is it for your own personal amusement?  Is what
you are doing benificial, or harmful?
 
Think about it.
 
Conrad


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/21/96 5:54 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: bn946@freenet.carleton.ca (Les Griswold)
Date: Sun, 21 Jan 1996 12:54:37 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
>
>From: salty@gate.net
>Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 14:01:55 -0500
>Subject: Re: CLOC
> 
>Is stormfront now "Politically Correct" also?  White males can
>no longer express views that conflict with liberals, jews, and
>minorities.  Are we to refrain from flaming these people when
>they post radical ideas.  If Cloc shook up a few subhumans, 
>what's the big deal!  
 
But CLOC DIDN'T shake up anybody who needed shaking up; all it did was
piss off some people who have NO interest in our ideological battles
(never mind the fact that the outcome will be VERY significant to them)
 
Les
 
--
"The fate of every last White man, woman, and child on this planet lies
squarely on the shoulders of us here today.  Out of all the racialist
organizations in the Nation, the [National] Alliance, and only the
Alliance, has the potential to bring us to victory!" -- Bob Mathews


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/21/96 4:07 AM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: Ralph Johnson 
Date: Sat, 20 Jan 1996 20:07:13 -0800 (PST)
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
On Sat, 20 Jan 1996, Stormfront-l wrote:
> >As a neutral party to this thread, I would like to ask something from BOTH
> >sides.  I, and I'm sure many others here, were not privy to the postings CLO
C
> >parties made into asl, etc.  In order to enlighted the rest of us, why not
> >post copies the postings CLOC made in these groups on this list?  Milton cou
ld
> >provide the egregious examples and CLOC people demonstrate their "techniques
"
> >in the light of day, so to speak.  I think this would benefit us all if done
> >civilly.  For Don's sake don't be voluminous ad tedium.
 
What the heck is CLOC?


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/22/96 5:54 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: CRSP_MA@gsbvxb.uchicago.edu
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 11:54:03 -0600 (CST)
Subject: Re: CLOC


unsubscribe Stormfront-L


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Subject:     Re: CLOC
Sent:        1/22/96 6:28 PM
From:        Stormfront-l, stormfront-l@stormfront.org

From: xyz@scsn.net
Date: Mon, 22 Jan 1996 13:28:23 -0500
Subject: Re: CLOC
 
a few comments on what people on the list have been saying about CLOC:
 
as far as the comments about CLOC not supporting the white music group, a
CLOC'er has been very active in getting this group.  and when mcvay wrote a
post against this newsgroup on apw-p, i was the first one to attack him as
being in favor of censorship.  (i'm not going to quote that post here, but
i'll send it to milt if he cares to see it again.)  and i have voted for the
newsgroup.  a reason CLOC has not been more outspoken about the white music
group is probably because most of the active CLOC'ers have been moving
during the last month and have not been posting at all.
 
as far as milt quoting a post from an aol'er and saying i wrote it--i did
not write that post and don't even have an aol account.
 
rc 
 


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