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From hempster@io.org Wed Jun 12 10:06:19 PDT 1996
Article: 21369 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (015d50b0056720fa716c391fb8acb871)
From: hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
Organization: Internex Online (shell.io.org), Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 1:48:03 GMT
Message-ID: <834544083$6948@atype.com>
Subject: Christian Identity
Lines: 126


ahabiz@aol.com writes:

a> >a> c.i. types are neither Christian, 
a> >
a> >  Yes they are..They are biblical fundamentalists..They thump 
a> >their bibles as hard as any Baptist or Pentacostal, if not
a> >harder.
a> 
a> frankie this is simply not true.  Their theology of hate
a> intentionally misinterprets, and in some cases out right
a> fabricates elements of both the Old and New Testament..

  In a way they take the scriptures *too* literally..For example,

 "I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) 
and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are
 not, but are the synagogue of Satan."  - Rev 2:9

   ..or for example this, which explains the paranoid survivalist,
gun-crazy mindset of Identity Christians (and others as well) :

  "And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment 
was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were 
beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, 
and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, 
neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their 
hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." 
- Rev 20:4
  
a> .they attempt in their perverse way to prove Jesus
a> wasn't Jewish...it's that nonsensical, really.  

   Yup..It's a hate sect, not typical of most churches.
There's alot of things that are nosensical in Jehovas 
Witness or Mormon or even Catholic doctrine as well..
Does that mean they ar enot Chrsitains either?

  a>  I know you aren't familiar
a> with the tenets of Christianity - 

  I used to be christian, actually..I'm born-again atheist.
And I'm pretty familiar with the bible, having read it from cover
to cover.
   
   a> that much is obvious if they could
a> convince you that they actually were some form of Christian, 

  They are Christian, as Christian as any occultic sect of Christendom.

 of course they''re not 'Christian' in their beliefs, but they are bible-
believers..

  a> > From my experience with these folks, they ARE true believers.
a> >They live according to their beliefs, which is more than can be 
a> >said for most Christians.
a> 
a> frankie, they're freaking NAZIs ! 

  Correction, they are neo-nazis.

  a>  I don't care if they're true believers
a> - so was himmler! 


  Hitler himself accepted Jesus as his Lord and Saviour (in his own words,
_Fireside Chat with Hitler_)..He was in fact obsessed with Jesus,
believing him to be the son of God, with supernatural powers.
Hitler was a Christian.

   a> They're racists, antisemites, and have no relationship
a> whatsoever to either Christianity or American political
a> conservatism...wake up and smell the coffee!  

  hmm..so Identity Christians aren't conservative Christians?

 They sure as hell aren't liberal agnostics.

  Would you agree with the term 'Christian cult'?


a> sorry, should have been more specific, I meant a little  basic
a> research into mainstream Christian theology...not a little basic
a> research into c.i....the latter hadn't even occurred to me as
a> something you'd be comfortable with...my fault.

  I've been familiar with the basics of Identity Christianity since 
1987 or '88, long before most people knew what a 'freeman' or 
'Christian patriot' was..

a> >profound belief in racist Christianity and a biblically-based 
a> >hatred for Jews and niggers.
a> 
a> frankie there is *no* *such* *thing* as 'racist Christianity'. 

   Saying this will not make it so..What about Hitler?
OK, what about 'racist Christians'?

   a> Christianity is profoundly inclusive of all races.

 depending on how you interpret it..Christianity is a death cult from
an atheistic POV.

   a>  This is what I meant
a> about their twisted attempts at theology.

  Do you believe there is one correct form of Christianity?

 a>  I challenge you to
a> investigate the theological basis for several of the
a> mainstream Christian denominations, and then see if you can
a> maintain your belief that c.i. is anything other than an
a> intentional perversion. 

  I know it's bullshit, there's no refuting the fact that Jesus was a Jew,
which is why they re-define Jew to mean caucasian. Identity
Christians believe they are the 'true' children of all tribes of
Israel.

<-------------------------!------------------------->
Hempster's Home Page: http://www.io.org/~hempster/hemp.htm
          -Hemp-InterFripp-OS/2 Warp-Links-Unabom-
                -Leary -Giger/Dali/Escer/Bosch-Ubo-

---
  KWQ/2 1.2i  OS/2 - Your imagination is your only limitation                                                                                   


From mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu Thu Jun 13 07:35:18 PDT 1996
Article: 21403 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (ea72dbecc6f01e0ebfe12c5ebac21bbf)
References: <834418083$2107@atype.com> <834472983$4455@atype.com>
From: mpitcava@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Mark T Pitcavage)
Organization: The Ohio State University
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 96 14:48:24 GMT
Message-ID: <834504504$5426@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 14



In article <834472983$4455@atype.com>, Mo10Cav  wrote:
>
>Pitcavage sez: "Pitcavage has never said that McVeigh was a militia
>member.."
>
>I observe:   Is it Pitcavage using the third person, or has his ATF
>control taken over his keyboard in the event of Herr Doktor's absence to
>attend the Third Annual Clinton Administration Snitches Convention?
>
>Been reading Caeser lately, Pitcavage?  Delusions of grandeur, perhaps?

Probably.


From hempster@io.org Thu Jun 13 07:35:21 PDT 1996
Article: 21405 of misc.activism.militia
Approved: militia-request@atype.com (9512e1d82f40a0a95e5c2a25d128435f)
From: hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
Organization: Internex Online (shell.io.org), Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 0:48:04 GMT
Message-ID: <834540484$6859@atype.com>
Subject: Christian Identity
Lines: 15


mo10cav@aol.com writes:

m> Pitcavage sez: "Pitcavage has never said that McVeigh was a
m> militia member.." 

  Correct..That was me who said that.

<-------------------------!------------------------->
Hempster's Home Page: http://www.io.org/~hempster/hemp.htm
          -Hemp-InterFripp-OS/2 Warp-Links-Unabom-
                -Leary -Giger/Dali/Escer/Bosch-Ubo-

---
  KWQ/2 1.2i  Moderator not found. Enter forbidden subjects? [Y/n]                                                                         


From ahabiz@aol.com Thu Jun 13 07:35:22 PDT 1996
Article: 21407 of misc.activism.militia
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From: ahabiz@aol.com (AHABIZ)
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 96 22:18:14 GMT
Message-ID: <834617894$10244@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 114


In article <834544083$6948@atype.com>, hempster@io.org (frankenchrist)
writes:

>a> frankie this is simply not true.  Their theology of hate
>a> intentionally misinterprets, and in some cases out right
>a> fabricates elements of both the Old and New Testament..
>
>  In a way they take the scriptures *too* literally..For example,

uh, they take *parts* of it literally, and the parts they do take, such as
the examples you gave, are taken both out of context and without any
knowledge of the cultural, linguistic, or religious environments in which
they were originally written.  

>   Yup..It's a hate sect, not typical of most churches.
>There's alot of things that are nosensical in Jehovas 
>Witness or Mormon or even Catholic doctrine as well..
>Does that mean they ar enot Chrsitains either?

No, it only means that, to the extent that their message does not parallel
the central themes of the NT,  they've wandered somewhat from the central
theme of Christianity.  [oh boy, I can hardly *wait* to see the comments
on that sentence!]

>  I used to be christian, actually..I'm born-again atheist.

okay.  I'd be interested to hear about that some time.  I guess my other
question there is whether or not you've rejected all forms of
spirituality, simply because you found the Christianity didn't 'fit' for
you.

>  They are Christian, as Christian as any occultic sect of Christendom.

uh, not familiar with the term 'occultic sect' could you define please?

> of course they''re not 'Christian' in their beliefs, but they are bible-
>believers..

frankie the evil one can quote scripture, if it suits his purposes...that
certainly doesn't make *him* Christian.

>a> frankie, they're freaking NAZIs ! 
>
>  Correction, they are neo-nazis.

erm, point to you on a technicality...

>  Hitler himself accepted Jesus as his Lord and Saviour (in his own
words,
>_Fireside Chat with Hitler_)..He was in fact obsessed with Jesus,
>believing him to be the son of God, with supernatural powers.
>Hitler was a Christian.

no.  hitler *claimed* to be a Christian.  His actions, however, were NOT
consistent with Christianity, and therefore he was not what he claimed to
be.  Look frankie, I'm a radical libertarian, now if I suddenly started
claiming I was a socialist, but kept acting like a radical libertarian,
would it be legitimate for people to point to me as an example of
socialism?  of course not!  Just the same, in matters of spirituality, we
must define people by their *actions*, rather than their words.

>  hmm..so Identity Christians aren't conservative Christians?

no, by no means.

> They sure as hell aren't liberal agnostics.

true enough :-)

>  Would you agree with the term 'Christian cult'?

I would define them as a cult.  or perhaps, a cult which misuses the term
Christian.

>a> frankie there is *no* *such* *thing* as 'racist Christianity'. 
>
>   Saying this will not make it so..What about Hitler?
>OK, what about 'racist Christians'?

I define people by their actions, not their words.  perhaps you use a
different standard?


>   a> Christianity is profoundly inclusive of all races.
>
> depending on how you interpret it..Christianity is a death cult from
>an atheistic POV.

yeah, yeah, it's also theophagic from that perspective...and atheism is
inherently self-destructive from a spiritual POV.  

>  Do you believe there is one correct form of Christianity?

I believe that there are a series of core issues regarding both the Person
of Jesus, as well as God's Intent for the world, which are central to all
forms of real Christianity.


> a>  I challenge you to
>a> investigate the theological basis for several of the
>a> mainstream Christian denominations, and then see if you can
>a> maintain your belief that c.i. is anything other than an
>a> intentional perversion. 
>
>  I know it's bullshit, there's no refuting the fact that Jesus was a
Jew,
>which is why they re-define Jew to mean caucasian. Identity
>Christians believe they are the 'true' children of all tribes of
>Israel.

Okay, yet you would say these c.i. types are exactly the same as everyone
else?  doesn't that seem to be stretching it a bit?



From mmedi13720@aol.com Mon Jun 17 15:00:20 PDT 1996
Article: 21794 of misc.activism.militia
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From: mmedi13720@aol.com (MMedi13720)
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Newsgroups: misc.activism.militia
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 96 23:03:05 GMT
Message-ID: <834966185$24316@atype.com>
Subject: Re: Christian Identity
Lines: 35


In article <834474807$4528@atype.com>, Robert Ireland 
writes:

>
>I live in the same county where those bomb making idiots live.  It's not
=
>the FBIs fault=20
>that Cherney and Bari went boom with their own bomb. =20

Why the hell would anybody hide a car bomb directly under where they would
be sitting? Likewise, why was it that there was no way to trace any of the
surviving components of the bomb to either Bari or Cherney? Finally, put
the explosion into the context of the repeated death threats received by
Bari which were never investigated by the Sheriff's patrol, despite here
repeated requests for this both before and after the assassination
attempt. Add to that the letter after the bombing from someone calling
themself "The Lord's Avenger" who was able to describe the bomb in full
detail.

I used to live in the same county as Richard J. Daley. By your logic
above, this would make me an expert on the private inner workings of the
Democratic party.

>My statement holds as much validity as yours, since it has never been
pro=
>ven who=20
>manufactured the bomb in the first place.  Hell, my statement holds more
=
>validity.  I=20
>live in the same state and country as the two bungling would be bombers.
>
It was never proven, since it was never investigated.

Mike S. Medintz


From aircav@zapcom.net Mon Jun 17 15:00:23 PDT 1996
Article: 21817 of misc.activism.militia
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Date: Mon, 17 Jun 96 5:03:13 GMT
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Subject: Re: Christian Identity
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MMedi13720 wrote:
> 
> In article <834474807$4528@atype.com>, Robert Ireland 
> writes:
> 
> >
> >I live in the same county where those bomb making idiots live.  It's not
> >the FBIs fault
> >that Cherney and Bari went boom with their own bomb. 
> 
> Why the hell would anybody hide a car bomb directly under where they would
> be sitting? Likewise, why was it that there was no way to trace any of the
> surviving components of the bomb to either Bari or Cherney? Finally, put
> the explosion into the context of the repeated death threats received by
> Bari which were never investigated by the Sheriff's patrol, despite here
> repeated requests for this both before and after the assassination
> attempt. Add to that the letter after the bombing from someone calling
> themself "The Lord's Avenger" who was able to describe the bomb in full
> detail.
> 
> I used to live in the same county as Richard J. Daley. By your logic
> above, this would make me an expert on the private inner workings of the
> Democratic party.
> 
> >My statement holds as much validity as yours, since it has never been
> >proven who manufactured the bomb in the first place.  Hell, my statement holds more
> >validity.  I live in the same state and country as the two bungling would be bombers.
> 
> It was never proven, since it was never investigated.
> 
> Mike S. Medintz

-- 

Mike,

Don't get your blood pressure up.  The point was that both conclusions were
unsubstanciated.(sp?)

BTW:
Since I live in this county and worked with law enforcement at the time(prisoner
transport) I am aware of her complaints and also the fact that investigation turned up
no one but Bari that actually could verify the threats.  Since Bari was already in the
process of stirring up shit locally the assumption was these(the threats) were just a
publicity stunt to generate more funding for "Redwood Summer."  (Mind you this is not
official but was the grumblings to be heard while loading / unloading prisoners.)

I would also like to point out that in that same general time period, and before the
bomb blast, the LP mill's, in Redwood Valley, log deck was the recipient an attempted
fire bombing. This coming as it did shortly before their bomb going off, and it relation
to "Redwood Summer," helped to create the atmosphere that brought about the sloppy
investigation.

There is more than enough shared responsibility for the lack of zeal on the
investigators part.  They didn't do their jobs, and that sucks.  It allows us to have
these types of distracting conversations when we need to be focused on restoring our
rights while there is still time.

As I said above I used the example to illustrate the fallacy in using unsubstanciated
claims.  Someone will always be able to counter with their own unsubstanciated claim,
and then reinforce it with, "Hell! I live there," logic.



Robert Ireland
aircav@zapcom.net

"Government is not the solution to our problems,
government is the problem."  R. Reagan

"Although we give lip service to the notion of freedom, we know that government is no 
longer the servant of the people but, at last, has become the people's master.  We have 
stood by like timid sheep while the wolf killed - first the weak, then the strays, then 
those on the outer edges of the flock, until at last the entire flock belonged to the 
wolf."	
			  - From Freedom to Slavery -
			       - Gerry Spence -



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