The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 1999/11/27

THE PRESIDENT: With reference to Documents 1 to 8, has Dr.
Kubuschok the books?

                                                  [Page 207]


THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Then he will be prepared to
specify what parts of them . . .
DR. KUBUSCHOK (interposing): Yes, sir, yes, indeed.

I should merely like to add one item to the list. Yesterday
I received, from the prosecution, a further report by von
Papen to Hitler at the time of his activity in Vienna -
similar to No. 9, also a report to Hitler. I have also
received it in the form of a photostat. I shall also submit
this report for purposes of evidence.

THE PRESIDENT: I call on counsel for the defendant Seyss-

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: May we state our position?

May it please the Tribunal, with regard to this defendant,
the position as to the first four witnesses is that they
deal with the Austrian part of the case. On the 2nd of
December the Tribunal allowed this defendant a choice of
four out of nine. He has chosen Glaise-Horstenau, who was a
minister in the Austrian Government; Guido Schmidt, who was
the Foreign Minister at the time of the Schuschnigg-Hitler-
Ribbentrop interview; Skubl, who was the Police President
and State Secretary for Security in Vienna; and Reiner, who
is a well-known Nazi and who was afterwards Gauleiter of

The prosecution have no objection to these witnesses.

Then we come to the Holland period, and the prosecution have
no objection to Wimmer and Schwebel, but they do object to
Bolle being called as an oral witness. The position is that
he was refused by the Tribunal on the 26th of January. After
the refusal interrogatories were submitted, but these seem
to be almost entirely covered by the interrogatories
administered to the witness Von Der Wense, who is the second
under the heading of affidavits. I think out of the twenty
questions suggested for Bolle, there are only two that are
not covered by Von Der Wense, which are Nos. 17 and 18, and
two others which seem, to deal with very obvious points.

So that is the objection with regard to Bolle, and the
prosecution submit that he would really be cumulative and is

They make no objection to Fischboeck, who speaks on the
Jews, financial administration, art treasures and forced

They make no objection to Hirschfeld, who speaks about
confiscations and destruction of factories and the food

So, on the oral witnesses, the only objection is regarding

With regard to the affidavits there is no objection - or
rather, they should be interrogatories. They were all
granted by the Tribunal on the 26th of January, and under
these circumstances the prosecution make no objection to

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Steinbauer.

DR. STEINBAUER (counsel for defendant Seyss-Inquart): Mr.
President, your Honours ; my client, Dr. Seyss-Inquart, had
at first asked for a large number of witnesses and then, at
my advice, and according to the desire of the Tribunal,
reduced this number considerably.

I ask that the witness, Construction Supervisor
(Baudirektor) von Bolle, be admitted before the Tribunal
because in my opinion the objection made by the prosecution,
that this is a cumulative witness, is not quite correct.
Bolle was, before the occupation, Direktor of the Port of
Hamburg, and then during all the years of the occupation he
was director of the transportation department in Holland.

In particular he can testify about the railroad and shipping
strike in October 1944. This chapter of the history of the
occupation is extraordinarily important, because this strike
resulted in a blocking of traffic which led to an embargo.
The Indictment asserts, moreover, that the causes of the
later famine catastrophe in

                                                  [Page 208]

Holland, as we may call it, can in part be traced back to
measures which the defendant Seyss-Inquart took in October
1944. Quite understandably, the Armed Forces wanted to use
the few means of transportation which were still
functioning, for their own purposes. The very examination of
the witness Bolle should prove, however, that Seyss-Inquart
endeavoured, in as far as possible, to mitigate the effects
of the measures taken by the Wehrmacht in this matter.

In an interrogatory this complex of questions could not be
treated exhaustively.

I ask you, gentlemen, to realise that we are dealing here
with the examination of the administration of a kingdom of
nine million within a period of five years. If we read
through the report submitted by the Dutch delegation we see,
in regard to the financial consequences, alone, that it is
alleged that the damage, which had been brought about by the
administration on the one hand and by the events of war on
the other hand, in short, by the occupation of Holland by
Germany, reaches a figure of 25,725,000,000 Dutch guilders,
to which, considering the difference in prices between 1938
and now, we have to add a margin of 175 per cent.

I wish to point out that we are dealing here with the
examination of administrative, legal, financial and economic
measures over a period of five years. I therefore believe
that the request of the defendant, that this witness be
admitted, is quite justified.

Concerning the affidavits, I took the liberty of making two
more applications which have not yet been granted. This is
on the last page, a very short affidavit by Baron Lindhorst-
Hormann. He was formerly Kommissar of the Province of
Groningen and should in particular be examined in regard to
one point; in regard to the treatment of the so-called
hostages in the hostage camp, and also in regard to the fact
that none of these hostages was shot.

In addition to getting this affidavit, I have also asked
that some official announcements be obtained, announcements
by the Higher Police and SS Leader Rauter, regarding the
executions, in order to prove who had done these things;
that is, that the point of view of the defendant is, that
these regrettable measures were taken by the police and not
by the civil administration.

I also intend to submit two affidavits which are already in
my possession. One of them is an affidavit by a German
Judge, Kaminergerichtsrat Rudolf Fritsch. In Seyss-Inquart's
administration in Holland he was in charge of appeals. He
can tell us how Seyss-Inquart handled this important chapter
of jurisdiction.

Another affidavit which I have in my possession comes from a
Dr. Walter Stricker. It is cited as Document No. 30. Dr.
Walter Stricker was a lawyer in Vienna and emigrated in 1938
to Australia. He served in the Australian Army and, without
my asking, he sent me an affidavit, notarized by an
Australian Public Notary, in which he testifies about
conditions in Vienna in the critical days of October and
November 1938. I ask also that this affidavit be admitted.
As to the documents, as I have already told Sir David, I
shall submit an exact list.

THE PRESIDENT: One moment, before you deal with that. Sir
David said that with reference to the affidavits, which are
mentioned on Page 2, that these ought to be called
"interrogatories." I do not know whether you wish to ask
particularly for affidavits which are different from


THE PRESIDENT: You want affidavits?

DR. STEINBAUER Interrogatories, Sir.

THE PRESIDENT Would there be any objection to the affidavit
from the lawyer in Australia being shown to the prosecution,
so that they may see whether they wish to put cross-
interrogatories to that witness? Australia is too far away
from here for him to be brought here for cross-examination.

DR. STEINBAUER: Certainly.

                                                  [Page 209]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I have just been handed that
affidavit from the witness Stricker and also No. 6 on the
Dutch questions, from judge Fritsch; and if the same course
could be taken with regard to that from Baron Lindhorst-
Hormann, I shall be ready then to consider that too.


SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: With regard to the rest of the
documents, in the usual course, I ask that the defence make
extracts and show them to us.


SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: There is one point I call to the
attention of the Tribunal. It maybe helpful that No. 28, D-
571 is already in as Exhibit USA 112. I do not know if the
defence really wants No. 3. I shall not deal with it now,
but the prosecution will submit that it is really
unnecessary and irrelevant, but I think that is a matter
that we can more conveniently discuss when it comes up.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes; then, with reference to No. 2, under the
heading concerning the Dutch question, will it be
satisfactory if that is in the form of an affidavit and is
submitted to you, so that you can put cross-interrogatories
if you want to?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: That would be very satisfactory.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Steinbauer, have you the affidavit
mentioned in Paragraph 2 of the last heading?

DR. STEINBAUER: No, Sir. I have not received it yet. But I
have requested that the Tribunal question the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Would not interrogatories be a more
convenient form?


THE PRESIDENT: Then we need not trouble you further about
the documents.

DR. STEINBAUER: I have only the request that if possible,
two books, which are not in my possession, be obtained:
Document No. 8, Guido Zernatto: The Truth about Austria, and
No. 9, the book A Pact with Hitler - The Austrian Drama, by
Martin Fuchs. I was told by Austrian people that both these
books contain worthwhile information clarifying the events
in 1937 and 1938. Both books were, of course, prohibited in
Austria during the Nazi regime and therefore I cannot get

The second book is also on the list presented by the French
prosecution, and from this I have learned that the book
appeared in the publishing firm of Plon in Paris. Perhaps it
is possible, with the assistance of the prosecution, to get
these books in time. All other documents I have in my

THE PRESIDENT: Did you say No. 2? You said 8 and 9, but did
you also say No. 2?

DR. STEINBAUER: No. 2, Three Times Austria, by Schuschnigg.

THE PRESIDENT: I thought you mentioned the third book. You
said you have not got Nos. 8 and 9 and I thought you went on
to mention a third one.

DR. STEINBAUER: No, sir; only these two books.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Then, no doubt, the prosecution
will help you to get them.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: We will make inquiries, my Lord, and
we will communicate the result.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. I call on counsel for the defendant

                                                  [Page 210]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: May it please the Tribunal, the
defendant Speer has asked for twenty-two witnesses, who are
all to answer in writing. There are no oral witnesses. And
he asked for forty-one documents. He has also asked that the
Tribunal appoint a panel of experts to interrogate a number
of witnesses on what are termed " Economic questions". Now,
I think it would be convenient if I summarize in four
sentences the points of defence that appear on Page 26 and
the following pages of the application, because if the
Tribunal have these in mind it will make consideration of
the witnesses easier.

There are four Points. No. 1 is to show the responsibility
of Speer. The defendant Speer says that he was not
responsible for the mobilization, allocation or treatment of

The second Point is to prove that his functions were merely
technical and not political.

The third Point, to prove his actions to stop the importing
of foreign labour and the treatment of concentration camp
labour in the armament factories, which were his concern.

The fourth Point is his efforts, at the end of the war, to
stop destruction in Germany and so to benefit the Allies and
Germany after the war.

Now, as to the witnesses, the following are from his own
ministry, Nos. 1 to 6, 8, 10, and 12. The prosecution submit
that nine is rather a large number dealing with the position
of the ministry. They are cumulative on many points and we
should suggest that if counsel would pick three, that would
cover that part of the case.

Now, the following witnesses, Nos. 15 to 21, are designed to
show the attitude of the defendant at the end of the war.
There are a number of documents on this point, and again the
prosecution submit that that number of witnesses could be
cut down to two or three.

Now, dealing with the remaining witnesses, No. 7, Field-
Marshal Milch, has already been allowed to defendant
Goering, so that point does not arise. And No. 9, Dr.
Malzacher, although not a member of the defendant's
ministry, who was in charge of armaments in the South-east,
would appear to be cumulative as to the members of the

No. 11 is the liaison officer between the ministry and the
OKW and also appears cumulative, unless counsel could
indicate any special point that escaped the prosecution.

No. 13 is really cumulative of No. 12, relative to a point
on which Frau Kempf can speak.

No. 14 is the defendant's doctor, to speak on a period of
illness. Again, unless there is some point that the
prosecution has not appreciated, they would have thought
that the defendant and his secretary could speak on a period
of illness.

Finally, No. 22, Gottlieb Berger, is designated to inform
the Tribunal of Hitler's general views on the situation at
the end of April 1945, and would appear to be irrelevant. I
think the only point that is made is to show that this had
some effect on the radio speech which this defendant wanted
to make. These are the views of the prosecution as to the
witnesses. With regard to the panel of experts, the
prosecution respectfully say that these matters of supply of
labour and armaments are matters which are very generally
familiar now, and on which a great deal of evidence has been
given, and that they are essentially matters which can be
dealt with by the Tribunal, which will decide other
questions of fact. They are not really sufficiently
specialist matters to merit the Tribunal setting up a
special panel to deal with them. These are the views of the
prosecution on the question of witnesses.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Flaechsner.

DR. FLAECHSNER (counsel for defendant Speer): May I start,
Mr. President, with the last point which the prosecutor has
mentioned, namely, the question of whether the case of the
defendant Speer might justify having his sphere of activity

                                                  [Page 211]
explained and interpreted to the Tribunal by an expert. The
prosecutor is of the opinion that the evidence presented so
far is sufficient to inform the Tribunal about the manner of
work, the course of work, and its consequences in regard to
those questions, which came under the jurisdiction of the
defendant Speer.

I regret to have to say, however, that the description which
the prosecution has given of the activity of the defendant
Speer up till now is not correct, that is to say, not

It is very difficult to take account of a ministry and its
method of works, which, in normal times, has no place in the
state administration. In all states at war the ministries of
armament and production are created during the war. The
sphere of activities of ministries is determined from time
to time; and that also applies to the ministry which the
defendant Speer headed.

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