The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 1999/11/25

MR. DODD: Your Honour. There is the matter of Admiral
Buerkner. So, far as we know, Dr. Siemers made one request
about Admiral Buerkner some time ago, and at that time he
was told, as I understand it, that Admiral Buerkner was to
be called, or that the prosecution intended to call him as a
witness, and that, therefore, we did not think it proper for
him to talk to Admiral Buerkner until after we had called
him as a witness.

Up to a very late date in this presentation of our case, we
still had in mind calling Admiral Wirkner. I think some
reference was made to him, as a matter of fact, before the
Tribunal, with reference to the witness Lahousen. And it was
for that reason that we told Dr. Siemers that we did not
think he should, talk to the witness until after he had
testified, or a decision had been made with reference to his
testimony. But we have at all times tried to co-operate with
the defence and make available these people who are here in
custody so that they may talk with them.

THE PRESIDENT: We will adjourn now for ten minutes.

(A recess was taken.)

DR. SIEMERS: May I add something regarding the witnesses?
Concerning witness No. 1, Marinedakan Ronneberger, I agree
to use an affidavit as suggested by Sir David. Concerning
the witness Buerkner, I would like to mention that Mr.
Dodd's statement is based on an error. I am not permitted to
speak to the witness, because he has not yet been approved
by the Tribunal as my witness. No other reason was given.

THE PRESIDENT: We do not think any further discussion is
necessary about this witness. I have already stated what the
members of the Tribunal will act upon.

DR. SIEMERS: I did not understand whether Mr. Dodd agreed to
my speaking with the witness Buerkner now.

THE PRESIDENT: I think he said so. He said the prosecution
have closed their case, and they now have no longer any
objection to your seeing the witness.

DR. SIEMERS: Then one last remark. The Tribunal will have
noticed that I have not requested any witness concerning
naval warfare and submarine warfare. The reason is that I
have agreed with Dr. Kranzbuehler that he will deal with the
entire complex of naval warfare and submarine warfare
although, in this respect, it not only affects Donitz, but
also in a considerable degree Raeder in his capacity as
Supreme Commander of the Navy. Therefore, insofar as the
interests of Raeder are concerned in this matter, Dr.
Kranzbuehler will also represent him.

                                                  [Page 183]

I should like only to point out, that Dr. Kranzbuehler's
very important application regarding the questions to
Admiral Nimitz not only affects Donitz but, in particular,
Raeder, and beyond that, the organization of the General
Staff, insofar as the Navy is concerned.

May I pass to the documents now?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: With regard to Document No. 1, The
War Diaries of the Seekriegsleitung and the B.D.U., Dr.
Kranzbuehler's assistant, Dr. Meckel, has gone to London to
work on these at the Admiralty.

With regard to No. 2, Weyer's Navy Diaries, and the Navy
Year Book there is no objection to Dr. Siemers having these.

With regard to General Marshall's Report of 10th October,
1945, I cannot see the relevancy of it at the moment, but if
Dr. Siemers will indicate which part he intends to use, it
can be discussed when he actually presents it to the

Now No. 4, the British Admiralty Documents, May 1939 to
April 1940, which are wanted as to the preparations for
landing in Scandinavia and Finland. Although, strictly, what
is relevant is what was known to the defendant Raeder, I
shall make inquiries about these documents, and if the
Tribunal will give me a short time, I hope to be able to
report to the Tribunal upon them.

I want to make it clear that I cannot, of course, undertake
to give details on Allied documents: but I hope to be able
to produce some documents which may be helpful to the
Tribunal, and deal with them authoritatively. I would rather
not be pressed for details at the moment.

DR. SIEMERS: I agree with Sir David, I hope that I will
receive the books of No. 2 and No. 3 soon, because otherwise
a delay may be caused. The Report of General Marshall of
10th October, 1945, is, as far as I can judge from the
excerpts, important for the reason that General Marshall
adopts, on various points, an entirely different attitude
from Justice Jackson's. I believe that a comparison of two
such outstanding opinions is of sufficient importance to
have the Report of General Marshall also heard here.

Concerning No. 4, I am waiting for the final decision of the

I have only one more request, and I ask to be excused,
since, by error, I have not listed this No. 5. It is the
following: The prosecution has repeatedly presented
quotations from the book Mein Kampf by Adolf Hitler and
inferred from it that each one of the defendants who held a
leading position as early as 1933, should have known from
this book, even before 1933, that Hitler was contemplating
the launching of aggressive wars. I noticed that the
quotations in the document book, which was presented in
November, are all taken from an edition which was published
only in 1933. The edition of 1933, however, differs in many
points from the original edition. Unfortunately, I am
personally only in possession of an edition which was
published after 1933. In order to check these questions,
that is to say, in order to see what anybody could have read
in this book in 1928, and not 1933, I ask the prosecution to
try to submit a copy of the first edition. As far as I know,
the first edition was published in 1925, and the second in
1927, by the publishing firm of Franz Eher.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: We shall try to get an earlier
edition so that Dr. Siemers can compare the passages.

THE PRESIDENT: Are you going to deal with Page 2 of your
document? Sir David, you have not dealt with this, have you?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: No. I assume, your Lordship, that
Dr. Siemers would, in due course, indicate what excerpts he
was going to use : we could discuss when he presents them,
whether the prosecution has any objection.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. You intended, Dr. Siemers, I suppose, to
indicate the passages upon which you rely in your document

                                                  [Page 184]



SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: We have already discussed the point
on Page 3, that is the question of tonnages built, and so on
- I said I am making inquiries with regard to that.

THE PRESIDENT: My attention is drawn, Sir David, to
Paragraph 4b on Page 2. Are you suggesting that the Tribunal
supply him with documents on German policy without any
further reservation?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I am very sorry. It was an
oversight. I took it that that was included in the words at
the top of the page: "In addition, I shall submit documents
and affidavits, some of which are already in my possession,
and some of which I shall procure myself without having the
assistance of the prosecution." I took it that Dr. Siemers
has certain documents on German policy, and will indicate
what passages he is going to use. I am very sorry I did not
refer to that.

THE PRESIDENT: Does this part of the application mean that,
with reference to all these documents, Dr. Siemers has them
and does not wish any further action to be taken with
to them?

DR. SIEMERS: Yes, sir.

THE PRESIDENT: I call on counsel for the defendant von

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Dr. Sauter suggests it would be
convenient if I indicate the view of the prosecution.


SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: May I ask the Tribunal to note that
Dr. Sauter is asking for witnesses 1 to 8, except witness 5,
as oral witnesses : that is, he is asking for 7 oral
witnesses, and Nos. 5 and 9 to 13 by way of affidavit.

The prosecution suggest that, as far as oral witnesses are
concerned, the defendant might have No. 1 or No. 2, that is,
Wieshofer or Hoepken, because these witnesses appear to
cover the same ground : that he might have No. 3, the
witness Lauterbacher, who was Chief of Staff of the Reich
Youth Leadership (Reichsjugendfuehrung) : and, also, that he
might have No. 8, that is, Professor Heinrich Hoffmann, who,
I think, is Schirach's father-in-law: since the description
of his evidence takes up nine pages of the application, he
is obviously a very important witness.

Then the prosecution suggest that there might be affidavits
from No. 5, Scharizer, who was the Deputy-Gauleiter of
Vienna: No. 11, who is Madame Vasseau; No. 12 Herr
Schneeberger; and No. 13, Field-Marshal von Blomberg.

The witnesses that the prosecution find difficulty in
perceiving the necessity for are, first of all, No. 4, Frau
Hoepken. There are no details given in this application,
except that she was secretary to von Schirach. No. 6, the
witness Heinz Schmidt, who apparently repeats part of the
evidence of the witness Lauterbacher word for word. No. 7,
Dr. Schluender, who also repeats the witness Lauterbacher
word for word. And No. 9, Dr. Klingspor, who expresses a
personal view on the defendant, which, in the submission of
the prosecution, is not really helpful evidence. And
finally, Dr. Roesen, No. 10, who speaks as to an isolated
incident of kindness on the part of the defendant to the
family of the musician Richard Strauss.

This is the position which the prosecution take with regard
to the witnesses.

DR. SAUTER (counsel for defendant von Schirach): Your
Honours, I have, in the case of Baldur von Schirach also,
limited my evidence as much as possible.

                                                  [Page 185]

England and France, and, I believe, your Honours, that the
attitude of the defendant von Schirach in the naming of
witnesses should be given recognition here, and that not one
witness only but both should be granted. I have submitted
the addresses of both witnesses to the Tribunal. They are in
a camp and I believe, your Honours, it is imperative to
summon both witnesses to establish the facts.

THE PRESIDENT: I still do not follow what the essential
difference is between the two.

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, I have just pointed out that the
witness No. 2, Hoepken, had a leading position in the Reich
Youth Leadership, and that therefore the witness No. 2,
Hoepken, is in a position to give information, especially
about the activity of the defendant von Schirach as Reich
Youth Leader.

THE PRESIDENT: But Dr. Sauter, you stated that Wieshofer,
No. I, was adjutant to Schirach in his capacity as
Reichsleiter of Education of Youth, so that he was in just
as close contact with the defendant on the question of the
education of youth as Hoepken.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, but Hoepken was officially in charge of
Youth Education, while the activity of the witness Wieshofer
was limited mainly to the job of adjutant to the defendant
von Schirach, primarily in his capacity as Gauleiter in
Vienna. That is the main difference, and the witnesses who
could provide information about his activity in Vienna are
mainly the witness Wieshofer and, to a small extent, also
Hoepken. But I need Hoepken, chiefly, as I said, for the
clarification of the activity of Schirach in the Reich Youth

Mr. President, may I also point out that much is at stake
for the defendant von Schirach, and that, from the point of
view of the Tribunal, it should really not make much
difference, in a matter so important to Schirach, whether
one witness or two witnesses are called.

Your Honours, I could have suggested perhaps four witnesses
in the hope that two would then be granted. If now, in the
name of the defendant von Schirach, I am proposing to call
two witnesses, I would not think it very just if one of
these two witnesses should be denied.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will consider what you have

DR. SAUTER: Furthermore, your Honours, in the third place, I
have to request Hartmann-Lauterbacher. If I have understood
correctly, the prosecution agree to this: therefore, I can
be brief.

The witness Lauterbacher, who was Chief of Staff of the
Reich Youth Leadership, is in a position to supply
information especially about the fact that the defendant
Schirach in no way prepared the youth psychologically and
pedagogically for the war, and by no means for an aggressive
war. Furthermore, he can testify that the allegations of a
Polish report - presented by the Russian prosecution in one
of the sessions during February, I believe on 9th February -
are definitely false. According to this report, the Hitler
Youth had used spies and parachute agents in Poland. And
this is false and the witness Lauterbacher will refute it .
. .

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Sauter, Sir David said he would not
object to No. 3 being called as a witness but what he did
object to was 6 and 7, whom you are also asking for, as oral
witnesses, because he said that they repeated what
Lauterbacher said - Nos. 6 and 7, that is Schmidt and

DR. SAUTER: Mr. President, there again is the difficulty
which I pointed out before.

From the Polish Government report which was read by the
Soviet prosecution on 9th February, 1946, it cannot be seen
in what period these activities concerning the Hitler Youth
agents and spies are alleged to have taken place.

Now it may happen here that, if I have only one witness, it
will be alleged that it was at some other time, perhaps at a
time when this witness was in the army

                                                  [Page 187]
and that is why, in the interest of a complete clarification
of these facts, I have asked to have witness No. 6 heard
also, that is the witness Schmidt.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, if you say that, does it not appear
that, with reference to Schluender, his collaboration with
the defendant extended from 1933 to 1945 and therefore if he
were called or were to give an affidavit or an
interrogatory, and Lauterbacher, whose collaboration extends
only from 1933 to 1940, you would cover the whole period and
you could exclude Schmidt.

DR. SAUTER: If I understand you correctly, Mr. President,
you are referring to an interrogatory in the case of

THE PRESIDENT: No, Sir David was prepared to have
Lauterbacher called as a witness.

DR. SAUTER: Lauterbacher is to be called as a witness and
Schmidt is to receive an interrogatory?

THE PRESIDENT: He said that Schmidt and Schluender were
cumulative. Then you said they did not relate to the same
period, as I understood you, and that might raise a
difficulty. So I pointed out to you that No. 7 related to
the whole period, that is to say from 1933, beyond the
period dealt with by Lauterbacher, and goes to 1945 and
therefore, if he were called, that would cover the whole
period and if you called Lauterbacher and Schluender and
left out Schmidt ...

DR. SAUTER: You mean that an interrogatory is to be obtained
from Schmidt? I am agreeable to that.

THE PRESIDENT: The statements which you make with reference
to Schmidt and to Schluender are practically identical.

DR. SAUTER: Yes, only they refer to different periods, as
each of them was in the army. If one of them comes he
cannot, of course, say anything about the time during which
he served in the army. He cannot give any information as to
whether during his military service agents were used.

THE PRESIDENT: I do not know about that. You have stated
that they were collaborators with the defendant from 1938 to
1945 in the one case, and from 1933 to 1945 in the other
case, and therefore if that is correct they cannot have been
in the army, they cannot have taken an active part in the

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I should be quite prepared to agree
to the suggestion that your Lordship put forward: that would
then cover the whole period. If both Lauterbacher and
Schluender were called, it would dispense with the necessity
for Schmidt.

DR. SAUTER: May I point out, Mr. President, that in any case
I need Schluender, who, by the way, was arrested a few weeks
ago, because he was a specialist for physical training with
the Reich Youth Leadership and because, therefore, I want to
prove, especially through Dr. Schluender, that the education
of the youth, as administered by the defendant von Schirach,
was absolutely neither extraordinary nor militaristic. The
defendant von Schirach has thus far, during the entire
procedure in his interrogations . . .

THE PRESIDENT: I think, really, there is a substantial
agreement between you and Sir David that No. 1 and No. 3
certainly should be called and that No. 7 might be called,
but I do not know whether Sir David agrees that an affidavit
or an interrogatory might be given by No. 6.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I have no objection to that, my

THE PRESIDENT: That is substantially what you want, Doctor

DR. SAUTER: Yes, sir.

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