The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 2000/11/29

Q. I am not going to argue with you about that. My
suggestion is perfectly clear, that Dr. Levy's letter was a
transparent attempt on your part to refute The Times
article, which you knew to be true. We will not argue that
any more. You evidently disagree. But you will agree to
this, will you not, that Dr. Seger seems to have agreed with
The Times article in his book, does he not? In his book, A
Nation Terrorized, he seems to be very much of the same idea
as The Times' article? Look at another letter in your book
now -

A. May I give you an answer to that too. The book written by
Seger is not called, A Nation Terrorized, but it is called
Oranienburg. And I should like to say this at once, Herr
Seger committed perjury knowingly when, at the beginning of
his book, he used the form of oath customary in German
courts. His statements were definitely refuted in every

Q. I understand what your position is on that and I am sure
the Tribunal does too, but just look at one more letter in
your book before I finish. Turn to Page 241. Have you got
it? Now there towards the bottom of the page is a letter
from an inmate which you published in much the same way as
Dr. Levy's letter, I suggest, to show how good conditions
were. And you see over the page, on Page 242, he says in
this letter: "Dear Mr. Schaefer: The days at Oranienburg
will always be among the best memories of my life." Do you
see that passage? "The days at Oranienburg will always be
among the best memories of my life."

A. Yes.

Q. Do you not think that that is too good to be true, or do
you support that today?

A. May I say the following: It is true, quite true. I admit
that this letter was written in a mood of exuberance and joy
at being free again. But I do not doubt that the author of
the letter quite truthfully meant what he wrote to me. One
should hear him personally on this matter.

                                                  [Page 140]

Q. He may have had the best intentions, but why should he
say that the days in a concentration camp, where he was
deprived of his liberty, were among the best memories of his
life? Can any man be -

A. Perhaps I might be permitted to say that before the
concentration camps existed, there were men - and I among
them - who stood in line in front of the unemployment
agencies and who suffered very great misery, men who in the
concentration camp had enough to eat for the first time
after a long period of want. That I should like to make
quite clear.

Q. They had enough to eat, and you remember you told the
Commissioner that you had them weighed and they all gained
in weight. If you will look at the last two pages of your
book I think you will see that you published there a table
or a list of the weights of the prisoners, showing how much
they had gained while they were in the camp. Have you got

MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON: My Lord, that is Document 2924-
B. It is on Page 32, I think - immediately after The Times


Q. Now that is a list, is it not, which shows the name of
the prisoner, or his Christian name and the initials of his
surname, and the weight on a certain date and then, after a
certain period, what he had gained. Well, now, I am going to
suggest to you that those weights are so fantastic that they
cannot possibly be true. Just look down, and you will see
that you have had some of them printed in bolder type than
the others. Look at Hermann H. from Wriezen. Have you got

A. Yes.

Q. On 26th June he weighed 54 kilogrammes; on 6th September
he weighed 68. That is an increase of 14 kilogrammes or 22
English stones in two and a half months. And look down
farther; you will see Erich L., who gained 15 kilogrammes in
six months. And farther down, Paul S., who gained 15
kilogrammes in four months; and if you look over the page
you will see Fritz T., who started at 55 kilogrammes and
very nearly gained half his own weight in three months, 19
kilogrammes in three months; that is 3 English stones in
three months. Do you not think those are rather fantastic
figures, impossible to believe? Well, I will put it another
way to you; I will make another suggestion; see if you will
accept this explanation. If The Times article was true about
the poor food and conditions and if my suggestion is right
that you afterwards decided to have a show camp and to
improve the conditions, is not this list of weights quite
consistent with the prisoners having first of all lost
weight under the bad conditions and then gained it again
rapidly when you improved conditions? Do you like that
explanation? I am not saying it is right, but that is
another explanation; or are you maintaining that these
figures are correct?

A. Yes.

Q. I notice that you do not include Dr. Levy's weight; and
you do not include Dr. Seger's weight, do you? Perhaps they
lost weight. Did they?

A. Perhaps they maintained their weight. This is only a list
of weights, only an extract from the list of weight
increases. You are assuming right from the beginning that
these are fantastic figures. I would like to emphasize that
I stand by whatever is set down in this book, and that this
list which is reproduced here is accurate and correct, and I
would like to suggest to you that you ask a medical man what
is the possible extent of gaining weight by a man who,
because of years and years of unemployment, has been
exhausted and run down when he once again enters a
nutritional phase in which he receives daily regular meals
and the quantity of food to which he is entitled. I am not a
medical man, but I believe that without hesitation a
physician will confirm to you that, within four months, a
man can gain the amount of weight shown in the lists. In May
of this year, I myself lost 50 pounds through insufficient
food in the camp. In the course of -

                                                  [Page 141]

Q. Well, I suppose then that these men must have been very
disappointed when they were given the generous Christmas
amnesty, were they not?

A. About Christmas, 1933, conditions in Germany had already
changed essentially. I believe I may say that things were
considerably better than in the year before.

MAJOR J. HARCOURT BARRINGTON: That is all the questions I
have, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Boehm, have you any questions to ask the



Q. Witness, was Hohenstein a Prussian camp?

A. No, Hohenstein, as far as I know - I hope I am not
mistaken in my geography - is in Saxony.

Q. Was Wuppertal a camp of the State?

A. That I do not know.

Q. Do you know that Vogl, who was mentioned earlier, was an
official of the Gestapo for the Land of Saxony?

A. No. I heard this name for the first time today. I do not
know it.

Q. Do you know that in his application he requested the
quashing of the proceedings not in his capacity as a member
of the SA but in his capacity as an official of the Gestapo?

A. I gathered from this letter which I had just now for a
few minutes that he did this in his capacity as an official.

Q. Do you know that the SA suffered 300 casualties in killed
and 40,000 in wounded during the struggle for power?

A. The figure of dead is known to me. The exact figure of
those wounded I do not know. I know only that there were far
more than 10,000 wounded.

Q. Is it not perhaps possible, after all, that many a member
of the SA thought of the 300 killed and the 40,000 wounded
comrades at the time when political opponents were taken
into the camp Oranienburg?

A. That cannot be denied, but no one is justified in drawing
any conclusions from this fact as to possible reprisals or
acts of retaliation which, from the beginning, were
prohibited by the decree of the Fuehrer; one, however, has
to realize that the seizure of power occurred at a time when
political tension was at its highest.

Q. Did anybody commission or order you to write the book

A. No. As I have already said, I received no commission and
no order for it.

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, I have no further question to put
to this witness.

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will adjourn.

(A recess was taken until 1400 hours.)

THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire, Dr. Boehm.

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, as next witness, I should like to
examine the witness Gruss. He is the witness who is to be
questioned concerning the people who went over from the
Stahlhelm to the SA.

THE PRESIDENT: Would you state your full name, please?

THE WITNESS: Theodor Gruss.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you repeat this oath after me.

I swear by God, the Almighty and Omniscient, that I will
speak the pure truth and will withhold and add nothing.

(The witness repeated the oath.)

THE PRESIDENT: You may sit down.

                                                  [Page 142]



Witness, how old are you?

A. 64 years old.

Q. Were you a member of the Party?

A. No.

Q. Or any of its branches?

A. No.

Q. Were you a soldier?

A. Yes, in the First World War.

Q. What was your rank?

A. Gefreiter (Corporal).

Q. And what was your rank in the Stahlhelm?

A. I was the Bundeskammerer (treasurer) of the Stahlhelm.

Q. From when to when were you in the Stahlhelm?

A. From 1919 until it was dissolved in 1935.

Q. What was your task after the dissolution of the Stahlhelm
in November, l935?

A . I had to carry out the liquidation of the Stahlhelm.

Q. And how long did that take?

A. Until 1939.

Q. How was the transfer of the Stahlhelm to the SA carried

A. At the end of April, 1933, the First Bundesfuehrer, Reich
Minister Franz Seldte, removed the Second Bundesfuehrer,
Duesterberg, from his post in violation of the Bundes
statute and took over dictatorial command of the Stahlhelm.
One day later, Seldte, in a radio speech, declared his entry
into the Party and he placed the Stahlhelm under Hitler. In
June 1933, Hitler, in an agreement with Seldte, issued an
order according to which:

1. The Stahlhelm Youth, the so-called Scharnhorst Bund, had
to be incorporated into the Hitler Youth.

2. The young Stahlhelmer and the sport units were placed
under the supreme SA leadership.

3. The rest of the Stahlhelm remained under the leadership
of Seldte.

A few weeks later, in July, 1933, a new order came from
Hitler. He ordered that now the entire Stahlhelm was to be
placed under the supreme SA leadership and directed that the
young Stahlhelmer and the sport units were to be reorganised
in view of their incorporation into the SA. On 4th July,
1933, the leadership of the Stahlhelm undertook
reorganisation of the Bund and established:

1. The Wehrstahlhelm. It was made up of the Youth Stahlhelm,
the sport units, and all Stahlhelmer up to the age of thirty-

2. The rest of the Stahlhelm (Kern-Stahlhelm) was made up of
all members over thirty-five years of age.

Then the Wehrstahlhelm were incorporated into the SA as
separate formations with their own leaders, the field-grey
uniforms and the Stahlhelm flags. This incorporation was
completed around the end of October, 1933.

At the beginning of November, another order was issued by
Hitler according to which the SA Reserves I and II were to
be set up. The SA Reserve I was to be made up of units of
the Stahlhelm, by the men from thirty-six to forty-five
years of age. The SA Reserve II was to include the older age
groups, that is, men over forty-six. But it never played any
role, and was just registered in the lists.

On the other hand the units of the Stahlhelm were set up to
form the SA Reserve I and were transferred to the SA, again
with their own leaders, as separate units and in the
Stahlhelm uniforms. This operation was completed by the end
of January, 1934. I believe it was on 24th January when
Chief of Staff Roehm reported to Hitler that the entire
Stahlhelm had been incorporated into the SA.

                                                  [Page 143]

Just as before the Wehrstahlhelm was placed under the SA
groups, the SA Reserve I was now also placed under the
command of the SA groups, which meant in both cases -

THE PRESIDENT: Is this not all set out in detail in the
Commission evidence?

DR. BOEHM: No, Mr. President. The examination of this
witness by the Commission was not conducted in the way the
examinations are generally carried out. This witness was
only very briefly examined by the Commission because his
state of health was very poor at that time, and there is no
getting away from the fact that this witness must be
examined more fully before the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: The only topic he is dealing with is the
merger of the Stahlhelm in the SA in 1933, is it not? That
is the only evidence he is giving and surely that is
adequately dealt with in the Commission evidence.

DR. BOEHM: Yes, Mr. President.

THE PRESIDENT: Is there anything else that you want to get
from him?


THE PRESIDENT: What is it? Yon are not getting it at
present, you are getting the way in which the Stahlhelm was
merged in the SA.

DR. BOEHM: Mr. President, the members of the Stahlhelm
consider it very important that it be presented to the
Tribunal how they were transferred into the SA; that they
were transferred by way of orders and that, as they assert,
they in no wise volunteered for the SA, and I believe, in
this connection, I may -

THE PRESIDENT: I quite understand that, but you are not
telling me, are you, that that was not stated in the
evidence in the Commission, that they were taken over
compulsorily by the SA.

DR. BOEHM: Yes, but I desire the individual events as they
actually occurred to be presented here to the Tribunal.

THE PRESIDENT: Well, we have got the summary of the evidence
before us and it seems to me that the evidence he is giving
now is the same as the evidence he gave then.

DR. BOEHM: It is true that a great part of the evidence
given was the same, Mr. President, but he had just finished
his testimony in this connection and I would have come to
the next question anyhow.

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