The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 1998/04/12

Q. Turning now to the Jews remaining in Budapest, what
happened to them?

A.  In October-November, 1944, about 30,000 of these Jews,
perhaps a few thousand more, were removed from Budapest and
sent to Germany. They were to be used to work on the
construction of the so-called South-East-Wall, a
fortification near Vienna. They were mostly women.

                                                  [Page 287]

They had to walk from Hungary to the German border -- almost
200 kilometers. They were assembled in marching formations
and followed a route specially designated for them. Their
shelter and nutrition on this march was extremely bad. Most
of them fell ill and lost strength. I had been ordered by
Eichmann to take over these groups at the German border and
direct them further to the "Lower Danube" Gauleitung for
labour purposes. In many cases I refused to take over these
so-called workers, because the people were completely
exhausted and emaciated by disease. Eichmann, however,
forced me to take them over and in this case even threatened
to turn me over to Himmler to be put into a concentration
camp if I caused him further political difficulties. For
this same reason I was later removed from Eichmann's

A large proportion of these people then died in the so-
called "Lower Danube" Work Camp from exhaustion and
epidemics. A small percentage,  perhaps 12,000, were taken
to Vienna and the surrounding area, and a group of about
3,000 were taken to Bergen-Belsen, and from there to
Switzerland. Those were Jews who had been released from
Germany as a result of the negotiations with the  "Joint."

Q. Summarising the countries of Greece, Hungary, and
Slovakia, approximately how many Jews were affected by
measures of the Secret Police and S.D. in those countries
about which you have personal knowledge?

A.  In Slovakia there were about 66,000, in Greece about
64,000, and in Hungary more than half a million.

Q. In the countries of Croatia and Bulgaria, about which you
have some knowledge, how many Jews were thus affected?

A.  In Bulgaria, to my knowledge, about 8,000; in Croatia I
know of only 3,000 Jews who were brought to Auschwitz from
Agram in the summer of 1942.

Q. Were meetings held of the specialists on the Jewish
problem from Amt IV-A, for the  names which appear on this
sheet, to which we made reference earlier?

A.  Yes. Eichmann was accustomed to calling a large annual
meeting of all his experts in Berlin. This meeting was
usually in November. At these meetings all the men who were
working for him in foreign countries had to report on their
activities In 1944, to my knowledge, such a meeting did not
take place, because in November, 1944, Eichmann was still in

Q. In connection with the Jews about whom you have personal
knowledge, how many were subjected to the "final solution",
i.e., to being killed?

A.  The exact number is extremely hard for me to determine.
I have only one basis for a possible estimate, that is a
conversation between Eichmann and Hoess in Vienna, in which
he said that only a very few of them had been fit for work.
Of the Slovakian and Hungarian Jews about 20 to 30 per cent.
have been able to work. It is, therefore, very hard for me
to give a reliable total.

Q. In your meetings with the other specialists on the Jewish
problem and Eichmann did you gain any knowledge or
information as to the total number of Jews killed under this

A.  Eichmann personally always talked about at least
4,000,000 Jews. Sometimes he even mentioned 5,000,000.
According to my own estimate I should say that at least
4,000,000 must have been affected by the so-called

                                                  [Page 288]
"final solution". How many of those actually survived, I am
not in a position to say.

Q. When did you last see Eichmann?

A.  I last saw Eichmann towards the end of February, 1945,
in Berlin. At that time he said that if the war were lost he
would commit suicide.

Q. Did he say anything at that time as to the number of Jews
that had been killed?

A.  Yes, he expressed this in a particularly cynical manner.
He said "he would leap laughing into the grave because the
feeling that he had 5,000,000 people on his conscience would
be, for him, a source of extraordinary satisfaction."

LIEUTENANT-COLONEL BROOKHART: The witness is available for
other counsel.

THE PRESIDENT:  Do any of the other prosecuting counsel wish
to examine the witness?

MR. ROBERTS: My Lord, I have no desire to ask any questions.

THE PRESIDENT:   Does the Soviet prosecutor wish to ask any

COLONEL POKROVSKY:  At this stage the Soviet Union does not
wish to ask any questions.

THE PRESIDENT:   Does the French prosecutor?
(No response. )


BY DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for the defendant Sauckel.):

Q. Witness, you mentioned the labour impressment of the Jews
and named two cases, one of Jews from Slovakia, who were
brought to Auschwitz and of whom those fit for work were so
used; the other when, later, you spoke of such Jews who were
brought from Hungary to the "South-East Wall." Do you know
whether the Plenipotentiary for Labor, Sauckel, had any
connection with these actions, whether this happened on his
orders and whether he otherwise had anything to do with
these matters?

A.  As far as the Jews from Slovakia were concerned, the
Plenipotentiary for Labor had nothing to do with these
matters. It was a purely internal affair for the Inspector
of Concentration Camps who committed these Jews for his own
purposes. Concerning the impressment of Jews for the
construction of the "South-East Wall," I cannot definitely
answer this question. I do not know to what extent the
construction of the "South-East Wall" was directed by the
Plenipotentiary for Labor. The Jews who came up from Hungary
for this construction work were turned over to the "Lower
Danube" Gauleitung.

DR. SERVATIUS: I have no further questions to ask the


BY DR. BABEL (Counsel for S.S. and S.D.):

Q.  Witness, you mentioned measures taken by the Security
Police and the S.D., and you spoke about these organisations
several times in your testimony. Is this merely an official
designation or are we justified in concluding from your
statement that the Security Service, the S.D., was
participating in any way?

A.  The actions mentioned were executed by Amt IV, i.e., the
Gestapo. If I mentioned the Chief of the Security Police and
the S.D., I did so because it was the correct designation of
thier office and not because I wished mention the S.D. as

                                                  [Page 289]

Q.  Did the S.D. therefore participate, in any way, in the
measures against the Jews mentioned by you: (1) numerically,
and (2) with regard to the execution of these measures?

A.  The S.D. as an organisation, was not involved. Some of
the leaders, including myself, had risen from the S.D., but
they had been detailed to Amt IV, i.e.,  the Gestapo.

Q.  Did former members of the S.S. and S.D., who later
became active in the Gestapo, still remain members of their
original organisation, or were they exclusively members of
the Gestapo?

A.  No, they still remained with the S.D.

Q.  And were they acting as members of the S.D. or actually
by order of the Gestapo?

A.  We belonged to the Gestapo for the duration of the
detail. We merely remained on the S.D. payroll and were
taken care of as members of their personnel. Orders were
received exclusively from the Gestapo, i.e., Amt IV.

Q.  In this connection I should like to ask one more
question. Could an outsider ever know his way about in this
maze of offices?

A.  No; that was practically impossible.

THE PRESIDENT:  Is there any other of the defendants'
counsel who wishes to cross-examine this witness? Colonel
Amen? Do you wish, or Colonel Brookhart, does he wish to re-
examine the witness?

COLONEL AMEN: No further questions, Your Lordship.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well. That will do.

(The witness withdrew.)

COLONEL AMEN: It will take about 10 minutes, sir, to get the
next witness up. I had not anticipated we would finish quite
so quickly. Do you still want me to get him up this

THE PRESIDENT:  Have you any other witnesses on these

COLONEL AMEN: Not on this subject, Sir. I have two very
short witnesses: one on the written agreement, as to which
testimony was given this morning, between the O.K.W., and
O.K.H. and the R.S.H.A., a witness who can answer the
questions which the members of the Tribunal asked this
morning, very briefly; and one other witness who is on a
totally different subject.

THE PRESIDENT:  On what subject is the other witness?

COLONEL AMEN: Well, he is on the subject of identifying two
of the defendants at one of the concentration camps. I
prefer not to mention these names to the defence unless you
wish me to.

THE PRESIDENT:  Very well. Then you will call those two
witnesses to-morrow?

COLONEL AMEN: Yes, Your Lordship. I do not think either of
them will take more than twenty minutes.

THE PRESIDENT:  Very well. Then you will go on with the
evidence against the High Command?


THE PRESIDENT:  We will adjourn now.

  (The Tribunal adjourned until 4th January, 1946, at 1000

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