The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 1998/04/10

                                                  [Page 272]
BY DR. SERVATIUS (Counsel for the Political Leaders and for
defendant Sauckel).

Q. Witness, with regard to the command channels at the
disposal of the R.S.H.A. for the execution of their orders
and measures and for the transmission of these orders to
tactical organisations, such as the S.D. and the
concentration camps, did the R.S.H.A. possess their own
official channels or did they rely on the channels of the
Political Leaders Organisation, i.e., were these orders
forwarded via the Gauleitung and the Kreisleitung?

A. I know nothing at all about it. I consider it entirely
out of the question.

Q. You consider it entirely out of the question that the
Gauleitung and the Kreisleitung had been informed? How was
it, for instance...

A. One moment, please. You asked me whether the channels
passed their way; you did not ask me whether they had been

Q. Were these offices informed of the orders?

A. The Inspectors, the Gestapo, or the S.D. Leaders were
considered as police or political reporters (Referenten) of
the Gauleiter or the Reichsstatthalter, and these official
chiefs had to report to the Gauleiter on their respective
fields of activity. Just how extensively this was done, I am
unable to judge. It depends on the activities and on the
nature of the co-operation between the Gauleiter and these
offices, but it is, in any case, inconceivable that the
State Police could carry on these activities, for any length
of time, without the knowledge of the responsible Party

                                                  [Page 273]

Q. Does this also refer to reports from lower to higher
units, i.e., to the activities of the concentration camps?

A. The concentration camps were not subordinate to the State
Police; I am convinced -- since these were purely affairs of
the Reich -- that there was no such close connection between
the Gauleiter and the concentration camps as there was
between the Gauleiter and the permanent activities of the
State Police.

Q. I also represent the defendant Sauckel. Do you know of
the impressment of foreign workers by the S.S.? Foreign
workers who, as a matter of fact, came from the
concentration camps?

A. Only superficially.

BY HERR BABEL (Counsel for the S.S. and the S.D.).

Q. Witness, this morning you mentioned the figures of 3,000
and 30,000 for the Security Service. I should now like to
know for certain how these figures are to be understood. Do
the 3,000 members of the S.D., whom you mentioned this
morning, represent the entire personnel of the S.D. at that
time, or did they only represent that part of the units
which were employed in the field with the mobile units also
mentioned by you this morning?

A. No, the figures represent the total personnel including
employees and women auxiliaries.

Q. Including employees and women auxiliaries. And the
30,000, which we also discussed, were they honorary members
(ehrenamtliche Mitglieder) employed only in the interior of

A. Yes, as a rule, in any case...

Q. And who, to a considerable extent, belonged neither to
the S.S. nor to the Party?

A. Yes.

Q. How large were the mobile units of the S.D. employed in
these executions?

A. The S.D. had no mobile units and only individual members
of the S.D. were detailed to regional offices elsewhere. The
S.D., as a separate entity, did not act independently

Q. In your opinion and judging by your own experience, what
figure did this detailed personnel attain?

A. The figure was quite a low one.

Q. Will you please give an approximate figure.

A. I place the figure at an average of about two to three
S.D. experts per Einsatzkommando.

Q. I should like to be informed of the total number of the
S.S. Do you know anything about that?

A. No, I have no idea at all.

Q. No idea at all. Did any units of the S.S. Armed Forces
(Waffen S.S.) and other subordinate S.S. Groups in any way
participate in the Einsatzgruppen?

A. As I said this morning, in each Einsatzgruppe there was,
or rather there should have been, one company of  the S.S.
Armed Forces (Waffen S.S.).

Q. One company. And what, at that time, was the exact
strength of one company?

A. I do not know about the Waffen S.S. serving with the
other Einsatzgruppen, but I estimate that my particular
group employed approximately 100 men of the S.S. Armed

                                                  [Page 274]
Q. Were "Death's Head Units" (Totenkopf Verbaende) also

A. No.

Q.  Was the "Adolf Hitler Bodyguard" (Leibstandarte Adolf
Hitler) employed in any fashion?

A. That was purely a matter of chance. I cannot name a
single formation from which these S.S. Armed Forces had been

Q.  Another question that was touched upon this morning:
When was the S.D. created and what, at first, were their

A. As far as I know, the S.D. was created in 1932.

Q.  And what were their duties at that time?

A. They constituted, so to speak, the I-C [Intelligence
Corps] of the Party. They were supposed to give information
about Party opponents and, if necessary, to deceive them.

Q.  Did these duties change in the course of time. and, if
so, when?

A. Yes, after the seizure of power, the combating of
political opponents was, in certain spheres, one of their
principal duties, and supplying the required information on
certain individuals was considered their main task. At that
time an Intelligence Service, in the true sense of the word,
did not yet exist; the real evolution of the S.D. machine
within the field of the Home Intelligence Service only
followed as from 1936-1937. From that time onwards the work
changed, from the observation of individuals to technical
matters. With the 1939 reorganisation, when the Main Office
of the S.D. was dissolved, the handling of political
opponents was completely eliminated from the work of the
S.D., which work was thereafter limited to technical
matters. Its duties now consisted in observing the effects
of the measures carried out by the leading authorities of
the Reich and the States (Laender) and in determining how
the circles affected reacted to them; in addition, they had
to determine what shape the moods and attitude of the people
and various classes of society assumed during the course of
the war. It was, as a matter of fact, the only authority
supplying criticism within the Reich and reporting facts on
objective lines to the highest authorities. It should also
be pointed out that the Party did not, at any stage,
legitimise this work until 1945. The only legal recognition
of this critical work came from Reichsmarshal Goering, and
that only after the beginning of the war, since he could, in
this way, draw the attention of the other departments, at
meetings of the Reich Defence Council, to faulty
developments. This unbiased and critical work became, in
fact, after 1939 the main function of the S.D. Home
Intelligence Service.

Q.  Another question. To what extent were units of the S.D.
committed for duty in the concentration camps?

A. I would ask you, at all times to distinguish between the
Home Front S.D. (Inland) working under the Head Office (Amt
III) and the Foreign S.D. (Ausland). I cannot give you any
information about the Foreign S.D. (Ausland), but their
Chief, Schellenberg, is present in this courthouse. As far
as Amt III is concerned, I know of no single case in which
the representatives of the Home Front S.D. (Inland) had
anything at all to do with concentration camps.

                                                  [Page 275]

Q.  Now, a question concerning you personally. From whom did
you receive your orders for the liquidation of the Jews and
so forth? And in what form?

A. My duty was not the task of liquidation, but I did head
the staff which led the Einsatzkommandos in the field,
whilst the Einsatzkommandos themselves had already received
this order in Berlin, on behalf of Himmler and Heydrich,
from Streckenbach. This order was renewed by Himmler at

Q.  You personally were not concerned with the execution of
these orders?

A. I led the Einsatzgruppe, and therefore I had the task of
seeing how the Einsatzkommandos executed the orders

Q.  But did you have no scruples in regard to the execution
of these orders?

A. Yes, of course.

Q.  And how is it that they were carried out regardless of
these scruples?

A. Because to me it is inconceivable that a subordinate
leader should not carry out orders given by the Leaders of
the State.

Q.  This is your own opinion. But this must have been not
only your point of view but also the point of view of the
majority of the people involved. Did not some of the men
appointed to execute these orders ask you to be relieved of
such tasks?

A. I cannot remember any one concrete case. I excluded some
whom I did not consider emotionally suitable for executing
these tasks and I sent some of them home.

Q.  Was the legality of the orders explained to these people
under false pretenses?

A. I do not understand your question; since the order was
issued by the superior authorities, the question of legality
could not arise in the minds of these individuals, for they
had sworn obedience to the people who had issued the orders.

Q.  Could any individual expect to succeed in evading the
execution of these orders?

A. No, the result would have been a court martial with a
corresponding sentence.

THE PRESIDENT: Colonel Amen, do you wish to re-examine?

COLONEL AMEN:  Just a very few questions, Your Honor.


Q. What organisation furnished the supplies to the Einsatz

A. The Reichssicherheitshauptamt furnished supplies.

Q. What organisation furnished weapons to the Einsatz

A. The weapons were also furnished through the R.S.H.A.

Q. What organisation assigned personnel to the Einsatz

A. The Organisation and Personnel Department of the

Q. And all these activities of supplies required personnel
in addition to the operating members?

A. Yes.

COLONEL AMEN: I have no more questions.

THE PRESIDENT:  That will do; thank you.

                   (The witness withdrew.)

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