The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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                                                  [Page 168]

Q. Would you please wait one minute. Just before this you
read Koppe's report on the shooting of the hostages, Page
180. And after that the Governor General expressed his
approval. This means that it was precisely this activity of
Koppe's that the Governor General had approved?

A. Well, this was not the only statement made by Koppe. The
statement of the Governor General was in reference to all
the statements made by Koppe, and not only to that one
singled out portion.

Q. Very well. In that case he also approved among other
things, this report and this statement.

A. But I know that the Governor General, like myself, was
exerting pressure on Koppe in order to stop the shooting of

Q. Will you kindly inform me who, while Kruger was still
chief of police, issued instructions for the shooting of one
male inhabitant from each house which displayed a poster
announcing a Polish national holiday?

A. That is unknown to me.

Q. I ask to have the corresponding document submitted. The
quotation is in the document book and on Page 1, paragraph 7
of our document.

  "The Governor General received District Chief Dr.
  Waechter, who reported on the appearance in some
  districts of inflammatory posters on the occasion of the
  11 November (Polish day of liberation). The Governor
  General ordered that in every house where a poster
  remained exhibited one male inhabitant should be shot.
  This order is to be carried out by the Chief of Police.
  Dr. Waechter has taken 120 hostages in Cracow as a
  precautionary measure."

Do you remember that? Who then introduced this criminal
practice of taking hostages?

A. Are you trying to say that I was present during that

Q. I should like to ask you about something else.

A. Please, will you answer my question? Was I there or was I

Q. No, I am not obliged to answer your question. It is you,
Witness, who have to answer mine. It is I who am
interrogating you, not you who are examining me. Kindly
answer the next question. You resided in Cracow. By order of
the Obergruppenfuehrer, Dr. Waechter - as a precautionary
measure - detained 120 hostages. Would you like to say that
you knew nothing about this either?

A. I knew nothing about this measure, nor is it known to me
that hostages were shot.

Q. Please answer the following question. Have I understood
you correctly, did you state today that there was no famine
in Poland?

A. Yes, there was no famine in Poland.

Q. I am asking you to be shown the speech of Dr. Buehler,
Secretary of State - (that obviously means you) - at a
meeting on 31 May, 1943, in Cracow. I begin the quotation:

  "... The Government of the Government General has for a
  long time been clear on the point that the scale of food
  rations allowed to non-Germans cannot be continued any
  longer without the population taking things into its own
  hands or being driven to insurrection ... The
  difficulties of the food situation, which, naturally,
  have a bad effect on the morale of the population, the
  enormous rise in prices, the in some cases overdone and
  narrow-minded salary and wage policy, has led to a part
  of the Polish population being driven to despair."

Did you say that?

A. I could follow the first part, but I couldn't find the
last sentences.

Q. Would you kindly follow the text. In the text you will
find both the first part and the last sentence. "Part of the
Polish population has, by this time, been driven to
despair." Please study the text.

                                                  [Page 169]

A. Where does it say so, please? Would you show it to me?

(The text was indicated to the witness.)

A. (Continuing) I made these statements, and -

Q. Then I also have the following question to ask you. Do
you not think that your announcement, in 1943, testifies to
the fact that you have today testified falsely before the

A. No; no. What I meant by my statement was that the
population would take things into its own hands. When for
instance a worker remained away from his place of work for
three days to go in search of food, this was considered by
me to be a desperate step on the part of the worker.

However, I said this morning that it was very difficult for
the population to obtain the necessary food supplies but
that it was not impossible, so that I did not notice any
actual famine.

And please may I ask you to consider that 80 per cent. of
the population of the Government General were country
people, so that there could be no famine on a large scale
unless the country side had been completely despoiled, and
that was not the case.

Q. You stated that as a result of the food quotas
established in the Government General a revolt might arise,
and you said that the population was driven to despair by
hunger. Is that not evidence that a famine was raging in the

A. By "revolt" I meant "unrest," not an armed uprising. It
is quite clear that morale and the will to work did suffer
by reason of the insufficient rations. I stated this morning
how it was that adequate provisioning of the Poles couldn't
be carried out. On the other hand, however, there was such a
widespread free market and black market that even the
worker, if he had sufficient time, could obtain food, and if
he didn't have time, he took it. That was what I meant.

Q. Please, answer this question. Were only such educational
possibilities left to the Poles as would - according to the
plan of Frank and Goebbels - merely emphasize the hopeless
destiny of their nation?

A. Efforts to keep down the level of education of the Polish
population were noticeable. These tendencies originated from
Himmler in Berlin.

Q. I would like you to answer: What was done with the Polish

A. They were closed and they were not reopened. However,
technical courses were arranged in Warsaw and in Lemberg, in
which these people received university education; but it
appears that these courses were closed by demand from the

Q. Perhaps you will recollect under whose signature the
decree was issued to close the universities. Perhaps you
will recognise this signature? It is an official report.

A. The decree regarding the appointment of university
curators was signed by the Governor General in November,

Q. Will you please tell me, were only industrial schools
left in Poland?

A. Not only industrial schools remained open, but there
were, for instance, commercial schools, and the attendance
there was very big. Apart from that, there were trade
schools and elementary schools, which were set up on a large

Q. In other words, only those schools were left which
trained artisans and petty commercial clerks?

A. Who attended them I don't know, but at any rate
commercial schools were permitted.

Q. I should like to know on whose initiative the royal
palace at Warsaw was destroyed?

A. I don't know for certain. I heard once that it had been
the Fuehrer's wish that the castle in Warsaw, which was
heavily damaged, should be razed to the ground.

                                                  [Page 170]

Q. And by whose personal order was this castle, the royal
palace of Warsaw, destroyed?

A. I don't know whether it was blown up; that I don't know.

Q. Yes. It was destroyed. Who ordered it to be destroyed, do
you know?

A. I do not know.
Q. You do not know?

A. No.

Q. The quotation which I want to read to you is on Page 1 of
the translation of the document submitted by us to the
Tribunal. It is a very short quotation. I shall proceed to
read it into the record:

  "The Fuehrer discussed the general situation with the
  Governor General and he approved of his work in Poland,
  especially the destruction of the palace at Warsaw and
  the intention not to reconstruct the city."

Was it not true that the palace of Warsaw was destroyed by
order of Frank?

A. It is not known to me that the castle was destroyed. As
far as I know there was at one time a project to do this,
but the plan was abandoned.

Q. Tell me, please, was it not in your presence that the
defendant Frank, on 21 April, 1940, issued an order to apply
police measures during the so-called recruitment of

A. I should have to see the minutes. I can't remember it

Q. If you please (handing papers to the witness). The place
which I should like to quote is on Page 46 of the document,
the last paragraph.

  "Discussion with Secretary of State Dr. Buehler, S.S.
  Obergruppenfuehrer Kruger and Dr. Frauendorfer, in the
  presence of Reich Minister Dr. Seyss-Inquart."
  Subject of discussion is the deportation of workers,
  especially agricultural workers, to the Reich.
  "The Governor General stated that, since all methods in
  the way of appeals, etc., had been unsuccessful, one had
  now to come to the conclusion that the Poles evaded this
  duty to work either out of malice or with the intention
  of doing Germany indirect harm by not placing themselves
  at her disposal. He therefore asked Dr. Frauendorfer
  whether there were any measures left which had not yet
  been taken in order to win the Poles over voluntarily.
  Reichshauptamtsleiter (chief of a Reich main office) Dr.
  Frauendorfer answered this question in the negative.
  The Governor General stated emphatically that a final
  decision was now required of him. The question now was
  whether one would not have to resort to some form of
  coercive measure."

Was that not an order to apply coercive measures when
recruiting manpower?

A. I will not contradict the statement, since I have seen
the minutes. It is one of the utterances of the Governor
General which, I believe, were not altogether made
voluntarily, but which in no way altered the course which I
took on this question.

Q. Please, answer the following question: Were you present
at a discussion with Sauckel on 18 August, 1942, and was it
in your presence that Frank told Sauckel that he "joyfully
informed him of the shipping of fresh convoys of workers to
the Reich with the help of the police."

A. Together with the heads of my sub-departments who dealt
with the recruiting of workers I had a conference with Reich
Commissioner Sauckel before the visit to the Governor
General took place. I cannot now remember whether I was
present when Reich Commissioner Sauckel visited the Governor
General. I ask to see the minutes.

Q. Please show the witness the passage.

(Papers were handed to the witness.)

                                                  [Page 171]

I will now read into the record two short passages on Pages
918 and 920.

  "Doctor Frank: 'I am very glad that I can inform you
  officially that up to this date we have sent to Germany
  over 800,000 workers. Only a short time ago you asked for
  another 140,000. I am happy to inform you officially
  that, in accordance with our agreement of yesterday, 60
  per cent. of these newly requested workers will be sent
  by the end of October, and the other 40 per cent. will be
  despatched to the Reich by the end of the year.'"

Then I will ask you to pass on to Page 120. There is only
one other sentence I want to quote:

  "Besides the 140,000, you can count on further numbers of
  workers from the Government General during the coming
  year, for we will use the police to get them."

Does that not imply the use of Draconian police methods in
the so-called recruiting of manpower?

A. I don't recollect that I was present on that occasion, so
I can in no way confirm that was said in this way.

COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, I have no more questions to
put to the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: Do you want to re-examine?

DR. SEIDL: I have a few more questions to ask the witness.

First of all, I should like to clarify a misunderstanding
which seems to have arisen. The question which I put to the
witness in connection with Exhibit USSR 93 referred only to
Appendix 1, which has the title "Cultural Life in Poland."
That appendix deals with directives regarding cultural
policies which the administration of the Government General
was supposed to have issued, and the way I understood the
witness was that he only wanted to answer that particular
question, and not refer to the other appendices, such as,
for instance, those dealing with confiscated art treasures.

Perhaps it would have been better if he had not used the
word "forged." At any rate, he wanted to say that he didn't
know the directives in question.


Q. Witness, is it correct that by far the greater number of
Polish workers who were brought to the Reich were

A. May 1, first of all, say that I by no means wished to
accuse the prosecution of committing a forgery. I merely
wanted to point out that possibly they were using a forged
document. I didn't want to accuse the prosecution itself of
a forgery.

Now, regarding the question put by defendant's counsel, I
want to say that according to my observations, by far the
greater number of all the workers from the Government
General went to the Reich voluntarily.

Q. So as to refresh your memory, I am going to read a short
quotation from the diary, which deals with the recruiting of

On 4 March, 1940, the Governor General addressed a meeting
of the town mayors of the Lublin district and stated the
following regarding the recruitment of workers:

  "He turned down the issuance of a new decree as demanded
  by Berlin containing particular coercive measures and
  threats of punishment. Measures which attract attention
  abroad would have to be avoided. The forcible transport
  of people had every argument against it."

Does the conception reflect the true views of the Governor

A. I was not present during that conference, so I didn't
hear that utterance by the Governor General, but it does
tally with those instructions and principles which the
Governor General gave to me and which I have always had
carried out.

Q. Were you present during a conference on 14 January, 1944?
- I see you

                                                  [Page 172]

were there - it was a conference with the Secretary of State
Dr. Buehler, Dr. Koppe and several others. I quote from it:-

  "The Governor General resolutely opposes the employment
  of police forces for the carrying out of such measures.
  Such a task is not a matter for the police."

Is it correct that the Governor General repeatedly opposed
the use of police in connection with the recruiting of

A. That wasn't the only occasion. The deputy of Reich
Commissioner Sauckel was often attacked by him during public
meetings when he was talking about raids for the recruiting
of workers; but I must state that Sauckel's deputy always
declared that it was not he who had given instructions for
these raids for the rounding up of workers.

Q. The first quotation which the prosecutor put to you was
an entry dated 25 January, 1943. He asked you whether you
regarded yourself as a war criminal. I shall now put to you
another passage from that conference, during which you
yourself were present. I quote from Page 7 of that entry in
the diary. The Governor General stated:-

   "State Secretary Kruger, you know that orders of the
   Reichsfuehrer S.S. can only be carried out by you after
   first hearing me. This procedure was omitted in this
   instance. I express my regret that you have carried out
   an order from the Reichsfuehrer without first informing
   me, in accordance with the order of the Fuehrer.
   According to that order, instructions of the
   Reichsfuehrer S.S. may only be carried out here in the
   Government General after I have previously stated my
   agreement. I hope that this is the last time that that
   will occur; because I do not want to bother the Fuehrer
   in every single case of this kind."

I shall omit a sentence and continue to quote:-

   "It is impossible that we can disregard Fuehrer orders,
   and it is out of the question that in the sphere of
   police and security, direct orders from the
   Reichsfuehrer should be carried out over the head of the
   man who has been appointed for that purpose by the
   Fuehrer. Otherwise I should be completely superfluous."

I now ask you, is it correct that there were very frequently
such arguments between the Governor General and the higher
S.S. Police Leader Kruger, and that the Governor General
terminated these arguments by asking for co-operation, so
that some sort of administration could function in this

A. Yes, that is correct, such discussions were our daily

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