The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 1999/12/22

Q. Have you acquainted yourself with the entire document or
with paragraph 4 only?

A. I have read paragraph 1 of which you spoke previously.

Q. Did you find the passage referring to the plenary powers
of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs regarding the transfer of
the territory of Yugoslavia?

A. Yes, it says in my document that the surrender of the
territory occupied by the Italians is to be prepared by a
letter from the Fuehrer to the Duce and put into effect on
further instructions from the Foreign Office.

Q. That is correct. That is precisely the passage which I
had in view, i.e. section two of this document, which is
headed "The Delimitation of the Frontiers," it is stated
there - Section Two, Page Two of the document, it is stated
that as far as the delimitation of the frontiers was not
exactly defined, this was done in accordance with the
directives received from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

A. Yes, I see that.

Q. I have only one question to ask in this connection. Do I
assume that this document defines the part played by the
Ministry for Foreign Affairs in the partition of Yugoslav
Territory? Is this correct?

A. That appears from the fact that the Foreign Office was to
take part in fixing the other frontiers, in addition to
those defined here, the main lines of which were probably,
already, fairly clear.

Q. This is quite evident. I should like to put two more
questions to you, concerning Yugoslavia.

On the 4th June, 1941 - this no longer refers to the
previous document - a conference was held in the German
Embassy, presided over by the German Ambassador, Siegfried
Kasche, at which it was decided forcibly to evacuate the
Slovenes to Croatia and Serbia, and the Serbs from Croatia
into Serbia. This conference had been sanctioned by a
telegram from the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, No. 389,
dated the 31st May, 1941. Do you know about these measures?

A. No, I must say that I do not know them, but perhaps I may
read through them.

Q. Please do.

A. I recollect that resettlement was undertaken but I do not
know the details.

Q. It goes without saying that it must be very difficult for
you to remember all the details at the present time. But you
do remember that such deportations did actually take place
and precisely in accordance with the directives of the
Ministry for Foreign Affairs?

A. Yes. It states here that the Fuehrer had approved a
resettlement programme, but I do not know the details. At
any rate, we undoubtedly had something to do with it, as
this meeting definitely took place in the Foreign Office.
Unfortunately I cannot add any details since I am not

Q. I understand you. There is one more question in this
connection. This was the enforced emigration of the

A. I do not know, I cannot say.

Q. You do not know? All right. And now - the last question
in connection with Yugoslavia. After Germany's attack on
Yugoslavia about 200 employees of the Yugoslav Foreign
Office attempted to leave for Switzerland. They were

                                                  [Page 286]

arrested and then, in spite of protests addressed to your
Ministry, they were forcibly taken to Belgrade whence many
of them were sent to concentration camps and there died. Why
did you not take the measures which you were obliged to take
after such a glaring breach of diplomatic immunity?

A. I must say that at the moment I cannot recollect it at
all, but as far as I know, instructions have always followed
the principle that diplomats must be treated as diplomats
and sent back to their own countries. If it did not happen
in this case, I do not know why it was not done. However,
you yourself say that they were sent back to Belgrade. That,
at any rate, is certainly in accordance with my
instructions. Why they were later interned in Belgrade - if
they were - I must say I do not know. I do not think we had
anything to do with that.

Q. You do not know that they were interned in concentration

A. No, I did not know that.

Q. Very well. Now for a further series of questions. Who,
besides Hitler, signed the decree regarding the Sudetenland
of the 21st November, 1938? Can you remember?

A. I do not know to which order you are referring. May I
look through it? I see that I am one of those who signed it.
This is the law regarding the re-incorporation of the
Sudetenland into the Reich.

Q. You remember that you actually signed this decree?

A. No doubt. If it says so here, then it must certainly have
been so. At the moment, of course, I do not remember it

Q. That is evident. Who, besides Hitler, signed the decree
regarding the Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia, of the
16th March, 1939, which, by its very nature, destroyed any
remaining vestige of the sovereignty of the Czechoslovak

A. I believe that I was one of those who signed that one,
too. At least so I assume. Yes, I see that I signed it; here
it is.

THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, surely all these documents
speak for themselves. The defendant has not challenged his
signature upon these documents.

GENERAL RUDENKO: I understand, Mr. President. I only want to
remind the defendant. Since he appears to forget I simply
present the documents to him.

You also signed the decree of i2th October, 1939 regarding
the occupation of the Polish territories. Do you remember

A. 12th October, 1939. No, I do not remember it. I signed a
great many things during these years, but I cannot remember
them in detail.

Q. This is dated 12th October.

THE PRESIDENT: General Rudenko, if he does not dispute his
signature why should you waste time in putting these
documents to him? His signature is on the document. He does
not dispute it. This is a mere waste of time.


Q. Your signature also appears on the decree of the 18th
May, 1940, regarding the annexation, by Germany, of the
Belgian territories, Malmedy et alia.

I put these questions so that I may conclude with the
following question. Am I right in stating that each time a
decree issued by the Hitler Government attempted to offer
some semblance of a pretext for fresh territorial
annexations, this decree invariably bore the signature of
the Reich Minister Ribbentrop?

A. I believe not. If any territorial changes were
undertaken, it was the Fuehrer who ordered them, and, as is
probably evident from these documents, the various ministers
who were in any way concerned then countersigned the
Fuehrer's order or the laws decreed by the Fuehrer, and, of
course, I probably countersigned most of these orders

Q. Now, I should like you to acquaint yourself with the
document already submitted in evidence to the Tribunal as
Exhibit USSR 120. It is your agreement with Himmler for the
organisation of Intelligence work. I should like you to
acquaint yourself with sub-paragraph 6 (m) of this document.
It is an extensive

                                                  [Page 287]

document and the time of the Tribunal should not be taken up
unduly. It is stated here, and I quote:

  "The Ministry of Foreign Affairs gives every possible
  assistance to the Secret Intelligence Service. The
  Minister of Foreign Affairs, as far as possible, in the
  foreign affairs, will provide certain employees for the
  Intelligence Service, and they will be put amongst the
  foreign representatives of Germany."

I want to omit one long paragraph and will read the final

  "The responsible employee of the intelligence service
  must keep the head of the mission informed on all
  important aspects of secret intelligence service
  activities in the country in question."

You did sign such an agreement? Is that true?

A. Yes.

Q. We are therefore forced to the conclusion that the
foreign organisation of the Ministry for Foreign Affairs in
Germany was actually engaged in espionage work?

A. No, you cannot really say that, for the following

I mentioned once before this morning in the course of the
examination that there were differences of opinion between
Himmler and myself in regard to the Intelligence Service
abroad. Thanks to the efforts of the defendant Kaltenbrunner
that agreement was eventually signed. We planned to co-
operate; and I do not deny that we intended to work
Intelligence Service personnel into the Foreign Office
organisation. This, however, was not put into practice. The
agreement could not become effective because it was
concluded so late that the end of the war intervened. I
think the date of the conclusion of this agreement, which is
lacking in this copy, must have been 1944 or even 1945.
Thus, there was no actual co-operation. Such co-operation
was, however, planned, and I was particularly interested
therein. There had been all sorts of differences and I
wanted to end them and put matters on a more uniform basis.
That was the reason. In any case, I think that is a part of
the procedure which all countries had to employ abroad. I do
riot think it is anything unusual.

Q. I am not asking you about the activities. I was
interested in this document it is true that you did sign
such an agreement. You replied in the affirmative? I am not
asking you any questions about this document.

A. Yes. I replied in the affirmative - yes.

Q. I have another document from this series. Do you remember
a letter of the defendant Kaltenbrunner in which he asked
for one million Tumans for bribery in Iran?

A. One million ...? What is that? I did not hear it; please
repeat it. I did not hear the word very well ...

Q. Tumans are Iranian currency. I should like you to
acquaint yourself with this document; it is a short one.

A. May I see it, please?

Q. Of course.

A. Yes, I recollect the matter, and I think certain funds
were placed at their disposal.

Q. The money was placed at Kaltenbrunner's disposal?

A. I do not know the details, but I believe I did give
instructions to the Foreign Office at the time that
financial support should be given in this matter. That is

Q. It was precisely that point which interested me. The
document speaks for itself.

I now proceed to a following series of questions.

You have testified that in August- September, 1940, in the
castle of Fuschl, you met the defendant Keitel to discuss a
memorandum on the possibility of an attack

                                                  [Page 288]

by Germany on the Soviet Union. Consequently, nearly one
year prior to that attack on the Soviet Union, you were
informed of the plans for this attack.

A. No, that is not correct. The defendant Keitel was with me
at the time at Fuschl, and on that occasion he mentioned to
me that the Fuehrer had certain misgivings regarding Russia
and could not leave the possibility of a conflagration out
of his calculations. He said that, for his part, he had
prepared a memorandum which he proposed to discuss with the
Fuehrer. He had doubts as to the wisdom of any conflict of
that kind in the cast; and he asked me at the time if I
would also use my influence with the Fuehrer in that
direction. I agreed to do so. But the question of an attack
was discussed, as I might say, more from a staff point of
view. He made no mention to rue of anything more concrete.

Q. I do not want to take up the time of the Tribunal on this
question, because it has already been sufficiently

You replied to Keitel during this conversation that you
would express your opinion regarding the war with the
U.S.S.R. to Hitler. Did you have a conversation with Hitler
on that subject?

A. I discussed the subject several times with Hitler, and
when occasion arose I spoke of the danger of preventative
wars to him. Hitler told me of his misgivings, which I have
already mentioned here.

Q. Yes, you have testified in that sense. Tell me, did you
know that the so-called "Green File" of the defendant
Goering, containing directives for the plunder and
exploitation of the temporarily occupied territories of the
Soviet Union was prepared a long time prior to the attack on
the Soviet Union.

A. No, I did not know that. I heard the term "Green File"
here for the first time.

Q. All right - you did not know the name. And when did you
learn about the contents? The contents of this file?

A. Neither the file nor the name.

Q. You did not know. All right. You knew that already before
the war directives were drafted for the extermination of the
peaceful Soviet population?

A. No, I did not know that either.

Q. And when did you know about that?

A. I heard nothing at all about such plans.

Q. And the directives?

A. Regarding the preparation of such plans ...

Q. And regarding the directives concerning jurisdiction in
the "Barbarossa" region? You evidently did know about that

A. Regarding what? I did not understand that.

Q. Regarding jurisdiction in the "Barbarossa" region - it is
a supplement to Plan "Barbarossa"?

A. No, I must say that I have never occupied myself
personally with that subject. It is possible that some
department in my office did have a hand in it somewhere, but
as far as I remember I myself was never concerned with the
subject of jurisdiction; for after the conflict with the
Soviet Union began, the Foreign Office had nothing more to
do with these territories.

Q. I should like you to take cognisance of a telegram which
you addressed on the 10th July, 1941, at 1451 hours, to the
German Ambassador in Tokyo. We are submitting this document,
2896-PS, to the Tribunal as Exhibit USSR 446. You must
remember this telegram?

A. To whom is it addressed? It does not say here.

Q. To the German Ambassador in Tokyo.

A. Oh, Tokyo, yes.

Q. You apparently remember it. I must ask you to pay
attention to the words on Page 4 at the end of this
document. They are underlined, in pencil, for the sake of
convenience. Have you found the passage? I shall only read
that part into the record.

                                                  [Page 289]

A. Which part are you referring to? The last page?

Q. It is on page 4. It is underlined.

A. Yes, I have found it now.

Q. I am going to read this passage into the record.

  "I request you to use every means in your power to
  influence Matsuoka in the way I have indicated, so that
  Japan will declare war on Russia as soon as possible; for
  the sooner this happens the better it will be. Naturally,
  it must still be our aim to shake hands with Japan on the
  Trans-Siberian railway before the winter. With the
  collapse of Russia the position of the countries
  participating in the Three Power Pact will be so strong
  that the collapse of England or the complete annihilation
  of the British Isles will only be a question of time."

Have you found this passage

A. Yes, I have the passage; yes.

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