The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 1999/12/22

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TUESDAY, 2nd APRIL, 1946

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, your Lordship will have
noticed that I did not deal with the question of Jews. That
will now be taken up by my learned friend, M. Faure, of the
French Delegation.

DR. KAUFFMANN (Counsel for defendant Kaltenbrunner):

Mr. President, may I say a few words on an important
question? A map was discussed here yesterday, the map which
is now visible in Court. From that map the prosecution
concludes that a large number of concentration camps were
distributed all over Germany. The defendants are
contradicting this statement as energetically as possible.
In the treatment of my case, the case of the defendant
Kaltenbrunner, I hope to adduce evidence to the effect that
only a very few of the red spots on this map are in order. I
wish to make this statement here and now, in order that the
impression does not arise over and over again, in the
subsequent cases, that this map is a correct one.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kauffmann, this is only a reproduction of
what has already been put in evidence.

DR. KAUFFMANN: Yes, but I am at liberty to adduce proof to
the contrary?

THE PRESIDENT: Of course you are, but it is not necessary
for you to say so now. The fact that the evidence was put in
by the prosecution at an earlier date, of course, gives you
every opportunity to answer it, but not to answer it at this




Q. Defendant, as Minister for Foreign Affairs, you were the
Head of the Diplomatic Personnel, were you not?

A. Yes.

Q. The personnel followed your instructions, did they not?

A. Yes.

Q. You declared yesterday that you were responsible for the
acts of your subordinates?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you please tell me if Dr. Best, Plenipotentiary for
Denmark, was a member of your Ministry?

A. Yes.

Q. Dr. Best told you, did he not, that Hitler had given an
order to assassinate Danes when there were acts of sabotage?

A. May I ask you to repeat the question?

Q. Dr. Best, according to the documents that were produced
before the Tribunal, saw you on 30th December, 1943, and
told you that Hitler had given the order to assassinate
Danes when there were acts of sabotage in Denmark; is that

A. Yes, that was to be done against saboteurs. Hitler had
ordered it.

Q. The order, according to the terms employed by Dr. Best in
the document was to "execute persons, terrorists or non-
terrorists without judgement."  Can that not be considered
as assassination?

A. From the beginning I strongly opposed these measures, and
so did Dr. Best. We went so far as to ...

                                                  [Page 262]

Q. Defendant, I am not trying to say that you were pleased
with this state of affairs. I am merely asking you if you
were informed thereof. Is that correct?

A. Yes, the Fuehrer wanted that. I do not know the details.

Q. But I am not asking for details.

A. And what was ordered afterwards I do not know because, so
far as I am aware, it did not go through us, but through
another department.

Q. I note that you actually were informed of the Fuehrer's
order given that day to permit assassination. You therefore
considered it normal to belong to a government, the Head of
which was a murderer.

A. No, the exact opposite is true, the exact opposite.

Q. All right, all right, just answer, please.

A. ... for I told him that I had taken my stand and that I
held divergent views. The Fuehrer was dissatisfied with Dr.
Best and had the matter handled through other channels,
since Dr. Best was against it and so was I.

Q. I am merely asking you to answer my question simply. You
can give details through your counsel later.

With regard to Denmark, there was action against the Jews in
that country in order to deport them. Did you have anything
to do with that?

A. I cannot tell you anything about matters relating to the
Jews in Denmark, since I know nothing.

Q. Did you never hear anything about it?

A. The question - I remember once discussing the question
with Best - and we decided that it was of no significance in
Denmark. He was, therefore, not proposing to do anything in
particular about the Jewish question there, and I declared
myself in complete agreement with him.

Q. I ask that you be shown Document 2375-PS.

M. FAURE: This document has not yet been submitted to the
Tribunal. I would like to submit it as Exhibit RF 1503.

Q. I would like to read with you the second paragraph of
this document. It is an affidavit from a commander of the
Police in Denmark.

  "As commander, I was subordinate to the Plenipotentiary,
  Dr. Best. Since I was opposed to the persecution of the
  Jews, on principle and for practical reasons, I asked Dr.
  Best to give me the reasons for the measures that were
  Dr. Best declared to me that the Reich Foreign Minister,
  Ribbentrop obviously knew Hitler's intention to
  exterminate the Jews in Europe. He had furnished to
  Hitler a report about the Jewish problem in Denmark and
  proposed to deport the Jews from Denmark.
  Dr. Best declared furthermore that Ribbentrop was afraid
  of being held responsible in case the Jews remained in
  Dr. Best was also obliged to carry out the measures that
  were proposed to Hitler by Ribbentrop.
  From the discussion with Dr. Best I gathered that he must
  have had a discussion or a telephone conversation with

You read that, did you not?

A. What is written in this document is pure fantasy. It is
not true.

Q. Very well; I ask then that you be shown Document 3688-PS,
which I wish to deposit as Exhibit RF 1502. It is an order
Of 24th September, 1942, from Luther, addressed to his
collaborators. I wish to read with you the first, two
paragraphs of that document.

  "The Minister for Foreign Affairs has instructed me today
  by telephone to expedite as much as possible the
  evacuation of the Jews from different countries in
  Europe, since it is certain that the Jews rouse up
  feelings against us everywhere and must be made
  responsible for acts of sabotage and attacks. After a
  short report on the evacuations of Jews at present in
  process in
                                                  [Page 263]
  Slovakia, Croatia, Roumania and the occupied territories,
  the Minister for Foreign Affairs has now ordered us to
  approach the Bulgarian, Hungarian and Danish Governments
  with the aim of getting the evacuation started in
  these countries."

I suggest that this second document confirms the first as
regards your participation in the deportation of Jews in
Denmark. Do you agree?

A. It was the Fuehrer's plan, at the time, to deport the
Jews from Europe to North Africa - and Madagascar was also
mentioned in this connection. He ordered me to approach
various governments with a view to encouraging the
emigration of the Jews, if possible, and to remove all Jews
from important Government posts. I issued instructions to
the Foreign Office accordingly and, if I remember rightly,
certain governments were approached several times to that
effect. It was a question of persuading the Jews to emigrate
to certain parts of North Africa. That is true. May I return
to this affidavit. This, sworn affidavit is pure fantasy and
quite out of keeping with Colonel Mildner's character.

Q. But, in any case, you admit ...

A. Best once discussed the Jewish question with me, and he
said that as far as Denmark was concerned, the question was
of no particular importance, since there were not many Jews
left there. I explained to him that he would have to let
matters take their own course there. That is the truth.

Q. You admit, therefore, that this document signed by Luther
is correct, and that you did give the order to evacuate the
Jews of Denmark? It is in the letter.

A. No, not in Denmark. I do not even know this document of
Luther's. This is the first time I have seen it.

Q. Please, answer my questions; otherwise we shall waste a
lot of time.

In your opinion, both these documents are incorrect, you
said so; let us pass on. The German Embassy in Paris ...

A. No, I did not say so. That is incorrect. I said that I
did not know Luther's document. It is, however, true that
the Fuehrer gave me instructions to tell the Foreign Office
to approach certain foreign governments with a view to
solving the Jewish problem by removing the Jews from
government positions and, wherever possible to favour Jewish

Q. The German Embassy in Paris was under your orders, was it

A. The German Embassy in Paris - that is, the Ambassador to
the Vichy Government, naturally received orders from me.

Q. Exhibit RF 1061 has already been read to the Tribunal and
in this document you defined the functions of Ambassador
Abetz. It is document 3614-PS.

In this document, which has already been read to you twice
here, I would remind you that you commissioned Abetz to put
in a safe place the public and private art treasures,
particularly those belonging to Jews, on the basis of
special instructions mentioned here. Abetz executed this
mission by pillaging art collections in France?

A. It is not true.

Q. I would ask that you be shown Document 3766-PS, which has
not yet been produced, and which I should like to put in as
Exhibit RF 1505. I will merely go over a few lines of this
document with you. It is a report from the military
administration of which 700 copies were distributed. It is
entitled: "Report on the removal of French works of art by
the German Embassy and the Einsatzstab Rosenberg in France."

If you will look at page No. 3a, you will see that the title
in the margin is very significant: "Attempt reported by
German Embassy to remove objects from the Louvre."

Page 4, I will read the first sentence at the top of the
page ...

A. When may I refer to the individual points? Not at all or
here and now?

Q. When I ask you a question you will answer. I am reading a
passage to you:

  "Ambassador Abetz, disregarding the prohibition
  pronounced by the
                                                  [Page 264]
  military authorities, undertook to send to Germany a
  whole series of works of art from the Louvre which had
  been placed in safety."

A. I declare that this is absolutely untrue. Not a single
work of art was taken out of the Louvre by Ambassador Abetz.
That would have been contrary to the Fuehrer's express
orders, and he had strictly forbidden it. The report is

May I mention that on one occasion the French Government
wanted to present me with a work of art from the Louvre, a
painting by Boucher. I returned this picture to the Louvre.
I do not possess anything and the Foreign Office never even
saw a single work of art from the Louvre.

Q. You state that this report is incorrect?

THE PRESIDENT: What is this report you are putting to him?

M. FAURE: It is Document 3766-PS.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, I know, but what is this document?

M. FAURE: It is a report from the German Military
Administration, which is amongst the American documents in
the P.S. series. The Tribunal received a general affidavit
referring thereto.

THE PRESIDENT: Captured documents?

M. FAURE: Yes, captured documents. I indicate to the
Tribunal that this captured report contains numerous other
passages relating to Abetz's actions, but as the defendant
declares that the report is inexact as regards one of its
passages, I shall not continue reading the document, in
order to save time. In addition -

THE WITNESS: But this is not a captured document.


Q. Please, answer my questions. We are not going to carry on
a controversy. Your counsel can interrogate you later on.

DR. HORN (counsel for the defendant Ribbentrop): I must ask
your permission to inquire into the nature of the documents
submitted to the defendant. If it is stated that it is a
captured report and then, that it is not a captured report,
the matters should be put right, here and immediately.

M. FAURE: I have already indicated that this document
belongs to the P.S. series of captured documents. The
Tribunal has a large number of such documents and I do not
think that their authenticity will be disputed.


Q. I would now like to ask you the following question:

THE PRESIDENT: Are you going to ask further questions upon
this document?

M. FAURE: No, Mr. President.

Apart from the questions of art treasures, Abetz also dealt
with the question of the treatment of Jews in general, did
he not?

A. Abetz received no order. As far as I know he also had
nothing to do with the Jewish question. This question was
handled by other departments.

Q. Is it not true that in October, 1940, Abetz communicated
with you with a view to settling the situation of Jews of
German or Austrian descent who were residing in France?

A. I do not know, it did not interest me.

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