The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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DR. THOMA (counsel for the defendant Rosenberg): Mr.
President, may I first draw your attention to the fact that
my application for a document - Rosenberg's letter to
Hitler, in which Rosenberg asks not to be a candidate for
the Reichstag - has since been handed to me. This
application has thus been settled. Secondly . . .

THE PRESIDENT just a moment, Dr. Thoma. You withdraw that

                                                    [Page 6]

because you have that letter, do you not? You said "With
that the application has been settled." Do you mean that you
withdraw that application?

DR. THOMA: No, Mr. President. The Tribunal has already
permitted me to offer this document as soon as it was found.
It has since been found.

Furthermore, I should like to draw attention to the fact
that the document in which Rosenberg writes to Hitler and
asks to be relieved from the position of editor-in-chief of
the Volkischer Beobachter has been allowed me likewise. But
I have not yet received it.

Thirdly, may I ask that two further documents be granted me.
Two documents, which, during interrogation, have already
been shown to Rosenberg by the prosecution. The first is a
decree Hitler sent to Rosenberg in June 1943, in which
Hitler instructs Rosenberg to limit himself to the principal
matters in Eastern questions ...

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, you are now dealing with
applications which are not in writing; are you not?

DR. THOMA: Yes, I have already submitted them in writing.

THE PRESIDENT: I have only two applications here as far as I
can see:

One with reference to Hitler's letter to Rosenberg dated
1924, and the other with reference to three books about
Jews. These are the only two applications I have.

DR. THOMA: Mr. President, I have already made these
applications during open session, and as far as I know, I
had submitted them in writing even before making them in
open session. I have in fact received an answer as regards
two documents applied for. But for two applications the
reply is still outstanding. Hence I request the Tribunal's
permission to submit these two applications in writing

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, you will be allowed to if you will make
them clear. You ask for two further documents, and the first
one I understand you to say was a decree dated June, 1943.
Is that right?

DR. THOMA: That is correct. And the next document is a
letter from Hitler to Rosenberg in which Hitler replies to
Rosenberg regarding the reasons for his not wanting to work
in the Reichstag and for not wanting to participate in the
elections. But I do recall that I submitted this application
in writing and may I submit it again now?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, the application will be considered. Are
you referring to the document of 1924, the letter from
Hitler to Rosenberg dated 1924?

DR. THOMA: Yes, 1923 or 1924. Then, Gentlemen, I have
further this fundamental application regarding the question
of anti-Semitism. I have asked here to be permitted only a
few historic writings, these on the theme of why the Jewish
problem has existed in Germany, I believe even from the
eighth century, and why persecutions of the Jews recur
persistently in Germany. I want thereby to establish that in
this connection we are concerned with some tragedy which we
do not rationally understand. By producing evidence both
from Jewish and from Christian theological literature, I
want to prove that we are not concerned with the fact that
the German people were misled into exterminating the Jews,
and that the influence of the National Socialist Party was
such as to inculcate the German people with hate for the
Jews, but that we are rather here facing irrational
conditions and that this is recognized both in Jewish and
Christian literature. I wish also to establish that the
dispute between Jewry and the German race has existed on a
purely intellectual level, and cite Moritz Goldstein, who
said in 1911 - I mention only one example - that the Jews in
Germany dominate the intellectual life of Germany. Thus here
it is a matter of depicting the problem in Germany, the role
of Judaism in the cultural history of Germany, and why such
a drastic contrast between Judaism and the German race
exists here in Germany. I intend to quote only literature in
this connection, but I believe that my statements will not
be sufficiently credible to the Tribunal if I do not also
quote scientific - recognized scientific - writings. That is
all I am concerned with.

                                                    [Page 7]

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Thoma, your applications will be

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The next application is on behalf of
the defendant Speer, who requests a number of documents
dealing with the Central Planning Committee. I have not
actually had the opportunity of checking these with the
Exhibits, but if, as I believe, they are the ones which were
put by Mr. Justice Jackson to the defendant Goering in cross-
examination, I think they are all either Exhibits or
Documents which the prosecution have, and they relate to the
defendant Speer. If he does not have them, then we should do
our best to supply copies.

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, you said they all had been put to
the defendant Goering in cross-examination and were either
Exhibits or Documents; but if they have been put to the
defendant Goering, then they should be Exhibits.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Yes, your Honour, they should be
Exhibits; I have not had the opportunity of checking them,
but if they have been presented in Court they must be
Exhibits. The next one is an application on behalf of the
defendant Seyss-Inquart for interrogatories to be submitted
to Dr. Ueberreiter. The Tribunal will remember he was
Gauleiter of one of the outstanding Austrian Gaus, and a
collaborator in the National Socialist Movement in Austria.
I have no objection to these interrogatories being

THE PRESIDENT: He gave another affidavit, did he not, a day
or two ago?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Yes, sir. That was for another
defendant, Goering. Dr. Uiberretter obviously has some
knowledge of the Austrian position. The only question is as
to the requirements and the special subject of the
interrogatories. I do not know. I have to reserve my
position as to actual wording of questions.

THE PRESIDENT: Have you seen the interrogatory?


THE PRESIDENT: They have been deposited before us.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I am sorry, my Lord; I have seen
them. It is my mistake. Dr. Ueberreiter certainly comes into
the picture once or twice. I had seen this application. And
the only objection the prosecution felt was to the somewhat
leading form of the questions that were put, and perhaps my
friends Mr. Dodd and Colonel Baldwin, could have a word on
that point with Dr. Kubuschok or whoever represents Seyss-
Inquart, before they are actually delivered.


SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The next one is an application in
regard to the defendant Sauckel. Dr. Kubuschok tells me
there is another application on behalf of Seyss-Inquart
which was not on the form in front of me.

(Addressing Dr. Kubuschok):

Perhaps you would develop that?

DR. KUBUSCHOK (Counsel for defendant Seyss-Inquart): The
defendant Seyss-Inquart is requesting permission for an
interrogatory to the witness Bohle. The examination of this
witness has been refused by the Tribunal on the grounds that
it would be cumulative evidence. The defendant Seyss-Inquart
requests again to have these matters of evidence clarified,
this time only by way of an interrogatory. The witness is
essential, particularly as the subject of his evidence
cannot be established by means of other direct witnesses.
The other
witnesses who have been named in this connection can only
state what they have been told by Bohle. Regarding the
actual events, Bohle is the only man who can make statements
based on his own knowledge.

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kubuschok, if other witnesses who have
been granted are going to give what we call hearsay
evidence, from what they heard from Bohle, why was Bohle not
asked for instead of one of these other witnesses?

DR. KUBUSCHOK: I do not know the intention of my colleague
who is defending Seyss-Inquart. All I know is that he has
asked supplementarily for indirect witnesses here, but I am
told now that Bohle is considered as a direct witness, and
this because it must be expected that the other witnesses,
for whom this matter is not so important, may not remember
some points.

THE PRESIDENT: Did you want to say anything about it, Sir

                                                    [Page 8]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The Tribunal will remember that I
informed the Tribunal that all the questions to Bohle were
the same as those to the witness von der Wenze, except two,
which I think dealt with the requisitioning of lorries and
about which there could be little dispute. It seemed to the
prosecution therefore that here was clear proof that this
witness was entirely cumulative. The interrogation is the
same, word for word, as the interrogation of the witness,
von der Wenze.

DR. KUBUSCHUK: It was certainly not expressed clearly in the
original applications that the other witnesses only know
what they have heard from Bohle. In fact, we are here
concerned with evidence on instructions given by Bohle
personally, on which he is, of course, the best witness. If
necessary we would agree that the subject of that evidence
be eliminated, as far as the other witnesses are concerned.

THE PRESIDENT: Unless the matter can be agreed upon, the
Tribunal can scarcely decide on it without seeing the
interrogatory to Bohle and the interrogatories to these
other witnesses. Would it meet the case if we were to grant
this interrogatory on the condition that, if it appeared
subsequently that other interrogatories, when considered
with this one, were cumulative, they might be disregarded?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Certainly, as far as I am concerned.


SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The next is the defendant Sauckel,
and Dr. Servatius and Mr. Roberts of my staff have been
considering this carefully together. Dr. Servatius is not
here. Perhaps Mr. Roberts can tell the Tribunal how far they

MR. ROBERTS: Dr. Servatius submitted a list of about ninety
documents, a formidable number; but most of them are short
extracts from various decrees and orders relating to the
employment of labour, and it is difficult to find any reason
for objecting to them. Dr. Servatius at my suggestion agreed
to take from his list about ten or fifteen as cumulative.
There are about four documents relating to alleged ill-
treatment of workers at the hands of the enemies of Germany,
to which I have objected on the ground that they are not
relevant, and as to those documents a decision of the
Tribunal will be necessary, as a question of principle.

My Lord, as Dr. Servatius could not, as I understand, be
here today, perhaps we could discuss the matter with the
General Secretary on his return at the beginning of next
week, so that the matter then could be put in a convenient
and more or less agreed-upon form to the Tribunal.


Then you have not been able to come to any agreement about
the witnesses, have you?

MR ROBERTS: My Lord, I thought the position as to the
witnesses was this: That Sir David some weeks ago discussed
it before the Tribunal and Dr. Servatius discussed it, and
Sir David conceded the calling of six witnesses and
affidavits from a number of others. That was considered by
Dr. Servatius and he submitted his final and much-reduced
list of eleven witnesses, which I handed to an official of
the Tribunal, and which I understand has been before the

THE PRESIDENT: Have you the date there? Is it 4th March,

MR. ROBERTS: I have a document before me in German -


MR. ROBERTS: And the prosecution's position was fully stated
by Sir David when these matters were being considered
before, and it would be now really for the Tribunal, I
think, to decide on those two contentions - one for six
witnesses and one for eleven. What their decision should be

THE PRESIDENT: Sir David, that takes us to the end of the
listed ones. There were some that were received later.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: There is one from the defendant
Frank who requests interrogatories to Ambassador
Messersmith. That was granted by the Tribunal, and in an
executive session. It was not requested in counsel's
consolidated applica-

                                                    [Page 9]

tions but heard in open court. There is obviously no
objection to that in principle that the prosecution are
aware of.

Then the defendant von Ribbentrop requests the book,
"America in the Battle of the Continents," by Sven Hedin -

THE PRESIDENT: Other defendants have administered
interrogatories to Mr. Messersmith, have they not?


THE PRESIDENT: Have the answers been received yet?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: They have not been received, I am

THE PRESIDENT: How long is it since they were sent off?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I will find out, my Lord. (Short
pause.) 21st February.

THE PRESIDENT: You have seen these interrogatories, the ones
now suggested by the defendant Frank?


THE PRESIDENT: There are five of them.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The position is that we got them
yesterday and they are still being discussed between my
Delegation and the American Delegation. They have not
actually come to me yet.

THE PRESIDENT: We had better consider this.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: The next is an application by the
defendant von Ribbentrop who asks for the book, "America in
the Battle of the Continents," by Sven Hedin. That must be
subject to the general use of books and if there are
passages that the defendant wants to use, if he will submit
them, then we can deal with their relevance when the
individual passage comes up.

THE PRESIDENT: That also will be considered.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: If your Lordship pleases. Then there
is an application on behalf of the Defendant Schacht for the
book, "Warnings and Prophecies," by the late Lord
Rothermere. The same, I submit, should apply to that. Any
passage desired to be used can be extracted and shown to us
and then their relevance considered when use is attempted to
be made of them. Dr. Dix nods agreement to that.

Now, I understand there is an application on behalf of the
defendant von Neurath. I understand that he wishes copies of
the interrogations of Dr. Gauss, who is the gentleman who is
mentioned as a witness for the defendant von Ribbentrop. The
general ruling of the Tribunal has been, as I understand it,
that the defendants are only entitled to copies of
interrogations which are going to be used against them, that
is, their own interrogations, and it would be an extension
of the rule which might lead us into general difficulties if
this were extended to copies of the interrogations of other
witnesses. Therefore the prosecution objects in principle to

But as I gather that Dr. von Luedinghausen wants them for
the purpose of preparing the case, if he would care to come
and see me or my staff, perhaps they could be shown to him;
and if he indicates any matters on which we can help him, we
will be very pleased to discuss them with him.

THE PRESIDENT: Where is Dr. Gauss?


THE PRESIDENT: Can Dr. Luedinghausen not see him here?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I would welcome that. I have not the
least objection to that at all. That will ease the

THE PRESIDENT: Both causes appear appropriate, that Dr.
Luedinghausen could perhaps see you -


THE PRESIDENT: - with reference to interrogatories and see
Dr. Gauss in the prison here.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I welcome both of these courses.

                                                   [Page 10]

THE PRESIDENT: Very well, that concludes the matter.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: As far as Ribbentrop is concerned

THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Siemers, as Dr. Horn is not here, perhaps
you could deal with that application with reference to

DR. SIEMERS: Yes. I am prepared to do that, but since I have
not talked to Dr. Horn I must ask that Dr. Horn be not bound
by my statements.Hilger is a witness of very great
importance, since he was an Embassy Counsellor in Moscow
during the period, moreover, when negotiations for a pact
were conducted between Germany and Russia, until the
outbreak of the war with Russia. He is therefore the person
who participated in all negotiations, is well acquainted
with the dealings of von Ribbentrop, and therefore the best
informed and most useful witness. Hilger until now has been
in the background as a witness, since Dr. Horn had asked for
the ambassador, Dr. Gauss. But Dr. Horn withdrew, or has
withdrawn, his application for Dr. Gauss, as, far as I know,
and wants only, in reference to some lesser points, to have
possibly an affidavit or an interrogatory. I assume that Sir
David agrees to this, if I submit it in that form.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, Dr. Siemers.DR. SIEMERS: Sir David has just
very kindly expressed his agreement to this course.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I agree, my Lord, as I suggested, that if this
witness Hilger is called as an oral witness, an
interrogatory be administered to the witness Gauss.

THE PRESIDENT: Very well.That is all, is it not?


THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal will
adjourn to consider these matters.

(The Tribunal adjourned until Monday, 25th March, 1946, at 1000 hours.)

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