The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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                     TWENTY-SEVENTH DAY
                  FRIDAY, 4th JANUARY, 1946

COL. AMEN: I would like to call as a witness for'the prosecution
Walter Schellenberg.

THE PRESIDENT: Is your name Walter Schellenberg?

THE WITNESS SCHELLENBERG: My name is Walter Schellenberg.

THE PRESIDENT: Will you take this oath: I swear to God, the Almighty
and Omniscient, that I will speak the pure truth and will withhold and
add nothing.

(The witness repeated the oath in German.)


Q. Where were you born?

A. In Saarbruecken.

Q. How old are you?

A. Thirty-five years.

Q. You were a member of the N.S.D.A.P.?

A. Yes.

Q. And of the S.S.?

A. Yes ; the S.S. also.

Q. And of the Waffen S.S.?

A. And the Waffen S.S.

Q. And the S.D.?

A. And the S.D.

Q. What rank did you hold?

A. The highest rank that I held was that of S.S. Brigadefuehrer in the
S.S. and of Major-General in the Waffen S.S.

Q. You were Chief of Amt VI?

A. I was Chief of Amt VI and . . .

Q. During what period of time?

A. I was Deputy Chief of Amt VI in July, 1941, and the final
confirmation of my appointment as Chief was in June of 1942.

Q. State briefly the functions of Amt VI of the R.S.H.A.

A. Amt VI was the political secret service of the Reich and worked
basically in foreign countries.

Q. Do you know of an agreement between O.K.W., O.K.H. and the R.S.H.A.
concerning the use of Einsatz Groups and Einsatz Commandos in the
Russian campaign?

A. At the end of May, 1941, conferences took place between the then
head of the Security Police and the Quartermaster-General, General

Q. And who?

A. The Quartermaster-General of the Army, General Wagner.

Q. Did you personally attend those conferences?

A. Yes. 1 kept the minutes of the final meetings.

                                                            [Page 291]

Q. Have you given us the names of all persons present during those

A. The conferences took place principally between Obergruppenfuehrer
Heydrich, who was then the Chief of the Security Police and, the S.D.,
and the Quartermaster-General of the Army.

Q. Was anyone else present during any of the negotiations?

A. Not during the conferences themselves, but at a later meeting other
persons took part.

Q. And did those negotiations result in the signing of an agreement?

A. A written agreement was concluded.

Q. Were you there when the written agreement was signed?

A. I kept the minutes and was present when both gentlemen signed.

Q. By whom was this agreement signed?

A. It was signed by the then Chief of the Security Police, S.S.
Obergruppenfuehrer Heydrich, and the Quartermaster-General of the
Army, General Wagner.

Q. Do you know where the original agreement, or any copy thereof, is
located to-day?

A. No, that I cannot say. I know nothing about that.

Q. But you are familiar with the contents of that written agreement?

A. Yes ; for the most part I recollect that.

Q. To the best of your knowledge and recollection, please tell the
Tribunal exactly what was contained in that written agreement.

A. The first part of this agreement began with the quotation of a
basic decree by the Fuehrer. It read somewhat as follows:

     "For the safety of the fighting troops in the Russian campaign
     that is now at hand, all means are to be used to keep the rear
     safe and protected. On the basis of this consideration every
     resistance is to be broken by every means. In order to support
     the fighting unit of the Army, the Security Police and the
     Security Service are also to be called in for this task."

If I remember correctly, as a special example of something to be
protected, the safeguarding of the so-called great routes of supply,
also called "Rollbahnen," was mentioned.

Q. Do you recall anything else contained in that agreement?

A. In the second part of this agreement the organisation of the Army
Groups was mentioned . . .

Q. And what was said about that?

A. . . . and the corresponding organisation of the Einsatz Groups and
the Einsatzkonimandos of the Security Police and the S.D. Four
different spheres of activity were distinguished.

I remember the following: first, the front area; second, the
operational zone -- it was also divided into an Army area and a rear
Army area; third, the rear Army area; and fourth, the area for the
Civil Administration "Reichskommissariate" to be set up.

To cover these different spheres, questions of subordination and
command were settled exactly. In the front areas or fighting areas,
the Einsatzkornmandos of the Security Police and the S.D. were
tactically and operationally under the command of the Army, that is,
they were completely under the command of the Army.

                                                            [Page 292]
In the operational zones only subordination in respect to operations
should apply and this same rule should apply in the rear Army area. In
the zone intended for the Civil Administration (Reichskommissariate)
the same conditions of subordination and command were to apply as in
the area of the Reich.

In a third part was explained what was meant by tactical and
operational, or rather only the concept "operational " was explained
in detail.

By "operational " was meant the subordination to the Army in respect
to discipline and provisions. Special mention was made of the fact
that the operational subordination also included all supplies --
especially supplies of petrol, food and the making available of
technical routes of intelligence transmission.

Q. Have you now told us everything which you can recall about that

A. Yes ; I cannot remember anything else contained in the agreement.

COL. AMEN : If your Honour pleases, that is all.

THE PRESIDENT: Has the English prosecution any questions to ask?


THE PRESIDENT: Has the Russian prosecution any questions to ask?


THE PRESIDENT: Has the French prosecution any questions to ask?

(There was no response.)

THE PRESIDENT: Do the defendants' counsel wish to ask any questions?


BY DR. KAUFFMANN (Counsel for defendant Kaltenbrunner)

Q. Is it correct that Dr. Kaltenbrunner was your superior?

A. Dr. Kaltenbrunner was my immediate superior.

Q. During what time?

A. From the 30th January, 1943, until the end.

0. Do you know his attitude towards the important views of life
entertained by National Socialism, for instance, towards the question
of the treatment of the Jews or the question of the treatment of the

A. I personally did not have a chance to converse with him on these
problems. What I know about him is the result of my own few personal

Q. Did you see original orders from Kaltenbrunner dealing with the
execution of saboteurs, the confinement of people in concentration
camps and the like?

A. No. I had only oral orders from him in respect to this -- commands
which he gave to the Chief of the State Police, the Chief of Amt IV of
the R.S.H.A.

Q. Did Kaltenbrunner ever indicate to you that he had agreed with
Himmler that everything concerning concentration camps and the entire
executive power was to be taken away from him, and that only the S.D.,
as an Intelligence Service, was to be entrusted to you and him, and
that he wanted to expand this Intelligence Service, in order to supply
the criticism that was otherwise lacking?

A. I never heard of any such agreements. and what I found out later to
be the fact is to the contrary.

                                                            [Page 293]

Q. Now, since you have given a negative answer, I must ask you the
following question, in order to make this one point clear: What fact
do you mean?

A. I mean, for instance, the fact that, after the Reichsfuehrer S.S.,
persuaded by me, had very reluctantly agreed not to evacuate the
concentration camps, Kaltenbrunner, in direct contact with Hitler,
circumvented this decree of Himinler's and broke his word in respect
to international promises.

Q. Were there any international decisions in respect to this,
decisions which referred to existing laws, or decisions which referred
to international agreements?

A. I would like to explain that, if in regard to internationally known
persons the then Reichsfuehrer S.S. promised the official Allied
authorities not to evacuate the concentration camps in case of
emergency, this promise was humanly binding.

Q. What do you mean by evacuate?

A. Arbitrarily to evacu~te the camps before the approaching enemy
troops and to transplant them to other parts of Germany still
unoccupied by the enemy troops.

Q. What was your opinion?

A. That no further evacuation should take place, because human right
simply did not allow it ; that the camps should therefore be
surrendered to the approaching enemy.

Q. Did you know that your activity could also contribute to the
suffering caused to many people who were innocent?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you know that your activity, too, could bring suffering to many
people, to people who were per se innocent?

A. I did not understand the question. Will you please repeat it?

Q. Did you ever think that your activity, too, and the activity of
your fellow workers, was a cause for the great suffering of many
people -- let us say Jews -- even though these people were innocent?

A. I cannot imagine that the activity of my office could cause any
such thing. I was merely in an information service.

Q. Then your information service had no connection at all with such

A. No.

Q. Then Kaltenbrunner too would not be guilty in regard to this point?

A. But he was, at the same time, the Chief of Amt IV of the State

Q. I asked in regard to this point, and by that I meant your sector.

A. I only represented the sector Amt V1 and Amt Mil.

Q. But Kaltenbrunner, at the same time, was Chief of Amt V1?

A. Kaltenbrunner was the Chief of the R.S.H.A. Eight departments were
under him. One or two of them I headed, namely, Amt V1 and Amt Mil.
These two offices had nothing to do with the executive power of the
State Police.

THE PRESIDENT: What 1 understood you to say was that you were only in
a branch which was an information centre ; is that right?


THE PRESIDENT: And that Kaltenbrunner was your immediate chief; is
that right?

                                                            [Page 294]

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, he was the Chief not only of your branch but of
the whole organisation.

THE WITNESS : Yes, this is correct.

DR. KAUFMANN: I should like to question this witness later on. I
should like to reserve these important questions for later on, after I
have talked with Kaltenbrunner.

BY DR. KUBUSCHOF (Counsel for defendant von Papen)

Q. In the summer Of 1943 were you in Ankara, and did you then pay a
visit to the German Embassy?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you during this visit criticise German foreign policy in
various respects, and did you in this regard mention that it was
absolutely advisable to establish better relations with the Holy See?
Did Herr von Papen then answer: "That would be possible only if, in
accordance with the demands that I have made repeatedly, the Church
policy is revised completely and the persecution of the Church

A. Yes, that is the correct gist of the conversation, and I spoke with
the then Ambassador von Papen to that effect.

BY DR. THOMA (Counsel for defendant Rosenberg)

Q. You said a little while ago that the same regulations applied in
the area of the Civil Administration as in the Reich.

A. I said they were to apply.

Q. Please answer my question again.

A. I will repeat : I described the agreement which contained the pro
vision that in the areas intended for Civil Administration
(Reichskommissariate) the same relations to the Security Police and
the S.D., in regard to subordination and command, were applicable as
in the Reich.

Q. Do you know how that was done in practice?

A. No, later on I did not concern myself with these questions any

Q. Thank you. BY DR. BABEL (Counsel for S.S. and S.D.):

Q. You were a member of the S.S. and of the S.D., and in leading
positions ...

THE PRESIDENT: Will you state, for the purposes of the record, on
behalf of which organisation you appear?

DR. BABEL : I represent the organisations of the S.S. and S.D.

Q. In the R.S.H.A. there were departments of the Security Police and
the S.D. How were these two departments related, and what was the
purpose of the S.D.?

A. That is a question that I cannot answer in one sentence.

Q. I can withdraw the question for the moment and ask a concrete one:

Was the S.D. used with the "Einsatzgruppen" in the East? To what
extent? And with what tasks?

A. I believe that the largest employment of personnel in the East was
undertaken by the Security Police, that is, by the Secret State Police
and the Criminal Police, and that from the personnel of the S.D. only
supplementary contingents were formed.

Q. How large were these contingents? How large was the S.D.

A. I believe that I can estimate the figures: excluding female help,
the State Police -- perhaps 40,000 to 45,000; the Criminal Police --
15,000 to

                                                            [Page 295]

20,000; the S.D. of the Interior, that is, Amt Ill with its
organisational subsidiaries -- 2,000 to 2,500 ; and the S.D. outside
Germany, that is my Amt VI -- about 400.

Q. And how was the S.D. used in the East with the Einsatz Groups?

A. I cannot give you the particulars, since that was a concern of the
Personnel Administration, and subject directly,to the instructions of
the then Chief of the Security Police.

Q. Did the figures you mentioned include male members of the S.D.
exclusively, or was female help also included?

A. Only male members. I excluded the female help.

Q. Yesterday a witness gave us approximately the same figure Of 3,000,
but he included the female help in this figure.

A. I mentioned a figure Of 2,000 to 2,500 for the S.D. in the

Q. What was the organisational structure of the Waffen S.S.?

A. As for the organisational structure of the Waffen S.S., I cannot
give you a detailed reply that is reliable.

Q. You were a member of the Waffen S.S. and of the S.D.

A. I was appointed a member of the Waffen S.S. only in January, 1945,
by higher orders, so to speak. There I had more military units under
my command through the Amt Mil and had to have a military rank to
justify my activities.

Q. Do you know whether that also happened to a large extent in other

A. That question is beyond me to answer.

DR. BABEL : Thank you.



Q. Do you know of any particular case in which Kaltenbrunner had
ordered the evacuation of any one concentration camp, in direct
contradiction to Himinler's wishes?

A. Yes.

Q. Will you tell the Tribunal about that?

A. I cannot give you the exact date, but I believe it was in the
beginning of April, 1945. The son of the former Swiss President,
Muesi, who had taken his father to Switzerland, returned by car to the
Buchenwald Concentration Camp, in order to call for a Jewish family
which I myself had set free. He found the camp in complete evacuation
and under the most deplorable conditions. As he had, three days
previously, driven his father to Switzerland, with the final decision
that the camps would not be evacuated, and since this declaration was
also intended for General Eisenhower, he was doubly disappointed at
this breach of promise. Muesi Jr. called on me personally at my
office. He was deeply offended and reproached me bitterly. I could not
understand the situation and at once contacted Himinler's secretary,
protesting against this sort of procedure. Shortly after the truth of
the facts, as depicted by Muesi Jr., was confirmed, although it was
still incomprehensible, since Himinler had not given these orders. An
immediate halt to the evacuations by every available method was
assured. This was certified personally by Himmler by telephone a few
hours later. I believe it was on the same day, after a meeting of
office chiefs, that I informed Kaltenbrunner of the situation and
expressed my profound concern

                                                            [Page 296]

at this new breach of international assurances. As I paused in the
conversation, the Chief of the State Police, Gruppenfuehrer Mueller,
interrupted and explained that he had started the evacuation of the
more important internees of the individual camps, three days ago at
Kaltenbrunner's orders. Kaltenbrunner replied with these words:

     "Yes, that is correct, it was an order of the Fuehrer which was
     also recently confirmed by the Fuehrer in person. All the
     important internees are to be evacuated at his order to the South
     of the Reich."

He then turned to me mockingly and, speaking in dialect, said :

     "Tell your old gentleman (i.e., Muesi Jr.) that there are still
     enough left in the camps. With that you, too, can be satisfied."

I think this was on the ioth April, 1945.

COL. AMEN : That is all, may it please the Tribunal.


Q. Can you say what the functions of the Chief Amt of the Security
Police were?

A. That I cannot answer in one sentence. I believe . . .

Q. Be brief, be brief! What were the aims?

A. The R.S.H.A. was a comprehensive grouping of a Security Police,
that is, a State Police . . .

0. We know about this organisation on the basis of the documents which
ariat the disposal of the Court, but what were its functions?

A. I just wanted to explain its functions. Its functions consisted of
security, that is, State Police activity, of Criminal Police activity,
and of intelligence activity at home and abroad.

Q. Would it be correct to formulate the functions as follows : to
suppress those whom the Nazi Party considered its enemies?

A. No, I think that statement is too one-sided.

Q. But these functions were included?

A. They were, perhaps, a certain part of the activities of the State

Q. Had this part of the functions, then, been changed after
Kaltenbrunner took office?

A. No, there was no change.

Q. Had those functions, to which you referred just now, been changed
since the time that Kaltenbrunner took office as Chief of the Security

A. The functions, as I formulated them, did not change after
Kaltenbrunner assumed office.

Q. I have one more question : What were the aims and purposes of the
operation groups which were to have been created on the basis of the
agreement between the S.D. and the High Command?

A. As far as the agreement was covered at that time, the first part,
as I mentioned before, referred to the task laid down of protecting
the rear of the troops, and using all means against opposition and
against resistance.

Q. To repress or to crush resistance?

A. The words were : "All resistance is to be crushed with every

Q. By what means was the resistance suppressed?

A. The agreement did not mention nor discuss this in any way.

Q. But you know what means were used for that suppression, do you not?

A. Later I heard that because of the bitterness of the struggle, harsh
means were chosen, but I know this only by hearsay.

Q. What does it mean more exactly?

A. That in Partisan fighting and in the treatment of the civilian
population many shootings took place.

Q. Including the children?

A. That I did not hear.

Q. You have not heard it?

A. (No response.)

Q. That is all.

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