The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Last-Modified: 2000/11/08

DR. PELCKMANN: Mr. President, I ask for permission to
interrupt the reading of this document for a moment. I
object to the use of these documents in the examination of
this witness. The witness is to be examined as to his
credibility by this prosecution. The submission of these
documents does not serve this purpose. In his testimony the
witness has said that he had no authority over concentration
camp administration. Nevertheless, a document is shown to
him concerning penal regulations in a concentration camp. He
said he did not know it. Continuing on the same lines, the
prosecution attempts to submit a document -

THE PRESIDENT: The Tribunal is perfectly well aware that -

DR. PELCKMANN: I did not understand, Mr. President. I beg
your pardon.

THE PRESIDENT: I say the Tribunal is perfectly well aware
that this is a new
document and they will take into account everything that
this witness says.

DR. PELCKMANN: I beg your pardon, Mr. President.

                                                  [Page 273]

THE PRESIDENT: I say, the Tribunal is perfectly well aware
that this is a new document and that the Tribunal will take
into consideration everything that the witness says and how
far it appears that he has had anything to do with the
document in considering the question of his credibility.
Your objection is therefore rejected.

We had better adjourn now.

(A recess was taken.)

MR. ELWYN JONES: Reading a number of extracts, the total
possessions of Jewish Poles were 26 million. For textiles,
there were 462 wagons of rags, 251 wagons of bed feathers,
371 wagons of clothing and underclothing, and then follows a
total of over one hundred million Reichsmarks. Pages 18 and
I9, you need not trouble with them. Then, you turn to Page
20 of the German text, and, my Lord, Page 16a of the English
text. You see a report on the exports of the slave labour
from one of these camps which was set up for the benefit of
the German armament industry. There are listed the various
details of the work on various manufactured articles. "41
Aryan leading personnel ran 5,445 Jewish workers who worked
1,115,000 working days in the first 10 months of the year
1943, with 31,000,000 Zloty in the bank and till."

Then on the next page, Page 21 of the German text, dealing
with the orders given to the slave camps. "83 per cent of
the orders were for the Wehrmacht and 17 per cent for
civilian concerns."

Next, turn to Page 23 of the German text, Page 19 of the
English text. It is the provisional balance sheet of the
Action 'Reinhardt' till, Lublin, dated 15th December, 1943.
"The following money and values in kind were brought to the
German Reich during the course of the Action 'Reinhardt,'
Lublin, during the period 1st April, 1942, to 15th December,
1943, inclusive." The Tribunal will see from these figures
that, in the meantime, additional loot had been obtained.
"Cash in hand, 17,000,000; Reichsmark notes and coins,
3,900,000; to the Reichsbank, Berlin, Zloty notes and coins,
5,000,000; to the SS economist, Cracow, 50,000,000; loans
for SS industrial concerns 8,218,000."

Then on the next page there is a table of the foreign
currency that was looted currency and then notes, and then
there comes, once more, a list of the private possessions of
the Poles and Jews that were taken away. Rings, ladies' gold
wrist-watches, gentlemen's gold pocket watches, ladies'
watches with brilliants, ladies' watches of platinum, 29,391
spectacles, shaving equipment, pocket knives, alarm clocks,
sunglasses, silver cigarette cases, clinical thermometers,
all detailed to the last mark with a total of 43,662,000
Reichsmarks. Then the industry increased by 9,000,000 more
workers. There were 1,901 wagons of clothing, underclothing,
bed feathers and rags to an average value of 26,000,000
Reichsmarks. Total compilation of the total loot up to the
end of December, 1943, 178,745000 Reichsmarks.

Then there follows, on Page 38 of the German text, Page 23
of the English text, an account from the Personal Staff of
the Reichsfuehrer SS, which is an account of the national
resettlement carried out by uprooting of farms to make room
for German citizens, and the clearing of some villages.
Paragraph 3, "All Poles, including those who are being
brought into the labour programme in the Reich, are to be
given certificates confirming what property they have left
behind. They will be informed that they will receive a
suitable compensation some time in the form of goods or

Page 29 of the German text, 24 of the English text,
paragraph 6. "The communications from persons previously
sent to the Reich which report that they are getting on well
there, and the people's realization of the fact that up to
now nobody has been treated like the Jews, have already
dispelled the feeling of dread which surrounded this system
of grouping."

                                                  [Page 274]

Then I want you to turn to Page 31 of the German text, and
26 . .. the Tribunal will find it on Page 26 of the English

"Measures for the further Transfer of Populations." That
carried the heading of the Personal Staff, Reichsfuehrer SS.
"As many quarters express themselves against the transfer of
populations on the grounds that it causes too much unrest
among the foreigners, thus disturbing production, the
following measures have been decided upon:

  (1) Verbal propaganda will spread news about the
  discontinuation of these transfers.
  (2) No authority will announce anything before the actual
  moment when the transfer of the population is to be
  carried out. Planning will be done secretly.
  The time for immigration will be fixed to take place
  after the spring tilling of the fields, so that the
  foreigners will carry out the cultivation of the land,
  and the new settlers will be able to make use of the
  harvest. This has the advantage that, the conditions
  being as mentioned above, the foreigners will till their
  fields in all districts, while the German settlers will
  not run the danger, in view of the short time available,
  of being hindered in their spring work.
  The transfer of Poles should be carried out in such a
  manner that the good elements are put, as far as possible
  voluntarily, in districts cleared by the Security Police,
  and the transfer should be called 'The Establishment of
  Security in Partisan Districts.' The bad elements, if
  they are not employed as auxiliary workers, will be taken
  away gradually.
  The announcement of the time of resettlement will be made
  only on the day of the transfer of the population.
  All the organizations formed by settlers in all the
  villages will be occupied in advance by the 'Landwacht'
  (Country Guard) who, having received previous training,
  are to save the use of our own SS forces."

Then on the next page there follows a memorandum by
Globocnik, setting out the details of the technique of
resettlement, and I turn to the next document, Page 34 of
the German text, 29 of the English text. That is Globocnik's
final letter forwarding this report in dealing with the
Reinhardt action. It is dated the 4th of November, 1943,
when, as the Tribunal sees, Globocnik was the Higher SS and
Police Chief in the Operational Zone of the Adriatic Coastal
Area. It is addressed to Himmler: "Reichsfuehrer: I
concluded Action Reinhardt, which I have been directing in
the Government General, on the 19th of October, 1943, and
have dissolved all camps."

  The last paragraph but three: "During a visit, you,
  Reichsfuehrer, held out to me the prospect that a few
  Iron Crosses might be awarded for the special performance
  of this hard task after the work had been concluded.
  Please advise me, Reichsfuehrer, whether I may submit
  suggestions in this connection.
  I beg to point out that such an award to the forces of
  the local SS and Police Chief was authorized for the work
  in Warsaw, which formed a comparatively small part of the
  total work."

In the final document, Himmler sends a letter to Globocnik,

  "I express to you my thanks and my acknowledgement for
  the great and unique services which you have performed
  for the entire German people by carrying out the Action


Q. Witness, do you still say that you had no knowledge of
the use of the SS for the collection of loot, for the use of
resettlement, for the driving of people from their homes and
for the enslavement of Poles and Jews?

A. No, I had no knowledge of these things.

                                                  [Page 275]

Q. When did you first discover that Jewish and other people
were being exterminated in concentration camps?

A. I already testified to that a little while ago, that
these destructive actions were known to me only after I was

Q. Your connection with the Rascher case in the spring of
1944 must have given you a very clear idea that
extermination was going on. I repeat my question: Did not
your contact with the Rascher case in the spring of 1944
warn you clearly that extermination and killings were going
on in concentration camps?

A. I can refer only to my personal experience and
observation, when for the first time, in the case of
Rascher, I received proof that these things had occurred. I
should like to repeat again that in Reich territory, inside
Germany, it was quite impossible to get to know of such
things as are revealed by the documents before me.

Q. You arrested Rascher on the charge of fraud, did you not?

A. Rascher, as I already testified on Saturday, was
suspected first of all -

Q. Just a moment. Are you going to answer my question
directly? Did you arrest Rascher on a charge of fraud?

A. I can only repeat that he was already under arrest, and
after we learned of this crime we kept him in custody until
the end. It was a coincidence that we were holding him for
the other crimes - the two crimes for which he had been
charged - and, of course, he was closely guarded.

Q. You knew that Rascher had been carrying out experiments
on humans and, in the course of those experiments, that he
had been killing them, did you not?

A. That I learned from my conversation with the camp
commandant and the physician.

Q. Was Rascher ever charged with murder?

A. I already testified to that on Saturday - unfortunately
he was not accused by Himmler. Himmler was the only one who
could accuse him, as he was the supreme judge at the Court.

Q. Although you knew in the Spring of 1944 that Himmler's
organization was not only criminal but murderous, you
continued to serve it for another year?

A. I have already stated the cogent reasons why it was not
possible for me to go against the order of my superiors.

Q. When you gave the evidence before the Commission on this
Rascher matter, do you remember saying - it is recorded on
Page 2216 of the transcript for the 6th of July, 1946 - that
when you discovered that Rascher was the responsible person
for the experiments on living human beings, you saw to it
that this crime was not carried out any more? Did you say

A. Yes, indeed - inasmuch as this man was not released from
arrest as he otherwise probably would have been - the other
cases having been settled in the meantime. There was no
longer any danger of his evading justice and he would
therefore have had to be released. Instead, we continued to
hold him, because we had received knowledge of this new

Q. Did you take any steps to see to it that Rascher was not
succeeded by another SS murderer?

A. I do not understand what you mean by that question.

Q. I will explain myself. The Rascher experiments on human
beings were continued in Dachau after Rascher was arrested
for fraud, were they not?

A. No; the physician with whom I talked and who was the
deputy - he was brought to me by the camp commandant - did
not carry out any further experiments of that nature. He was
the man who had reported on those things that Rascher had
done, and he told me that he refused to go on working.

Q. Are you telling the Tribunal that the experiments and
biological research on human beings in Dachau stopped after
the dismissal of Rascher?

A. Yes, indeed. I am firmly convinced of that fact.

Q. I want you to look at the Journal of the Ahnenerbe, the
Ancestral Research Organization, for 1944, which was kept by
Sievers, the Reich Manager of that

                                                  [Page 276]

organization. It is Document 3546-PS, which will be Exhibit
GB 51. I have made certain extracts from the relevant
passages for the convenience of the Tribunal. Now, if you
confine your attention to the extracts, you can check them
against the original if you wish to do so. You will see that
Rascher's name appears in January, the conferences with him
on the 28th of January, on the 29th of January, and then
over on the next page in March and then in April there is a
conference at Rascher's station.

Now, when exactly was it that you had Rascher arrested, what
month was it?

A. What month?

Q. What month was it that you had Rascher arrested?

A. I cannot tell you. But surely you will find it in the
files. On Saturday I testified that it was in the spring of
1944. I cannot give you the exact date; however, I do know
for certain that at the beginning of May, after the
preliminary proceedings of this case were concluded, I went
to see Himmler and took the documents, so that these things
must have ceased as Rascher was under arrest.

Q. In looking at the extract for May, you will see the
conferences of the Reichsarzt SS, in which Hauptsturmfuehrer
Dr. Ploetner took part. Did you know that Dr. Ploetner took
over from Rascher in Dachau?

A. I do not know the names of the various physicians.

Q. In the entry for the 27th of June, the extract of 31st of
May - first, you see that Sievers had a conference with SS
Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Ploetner - first of all, with regard
to Professor Schilling. I take it that you know who
Professor Schilling is, do you not? Do you know Professor

A. Yes, indeed.

Q. He has recently been condemned to death for his
experiments in Dachau, has he not?

A. I read that in the papers.

Q. In May, you see, he was having a conference with Dr.
Ploetner; the 27th of June there is a conference with regard
to the creation of the scientific research station in the
concentration camp. The 25th of July, conference with SS
Staf. Mauer, in Oranienburg, about the use of inmates for
scientific purposes; and then on the same page, the 26th of
July, Hauptsturmfuehrer Dr. Fischer goes on a quick journey
through all concentration camps in order to fix finally the
persons; and then the 21st of October, the proceeding of
research of SS Staf. Prof. Dr. Hirt, and then the final
entry for the 23rd of October, 1944, SS Sturmbannfuehrer Dr.
Poppendieck, taking over of biological research by SS Staf.
Dr. Ploetner in Dachau. Are you still saying to the Tribunal
that all experiments on human beings in Dachau stopped after
Rascher went from there?

A. I can only state that the name Rascher does not appear
here and that I said under oath that he remained under
arrest. I do not know what else went on there. Anyhow, when
I learned of the happenings, I did everything to have the
matter brought to court. What other experiments were made in
the camp, as indicated in this report, I cannot know.

Q. Witness, you told the Tribunal that these experiments did
not go on any more after the dismissal of Rascher. You told
that to the Commission, did you not, and is it not untrue?

A. I can only repeat that Rascher was under arrest and thus
I assumed that these experiments had ceased.

MR. ELWYN JONES: If your Lordship please, I am not
attempting to cross-examine this witness with the matters
discussed before the Commission. The Tribunal is in
possession of all the documents with regard to the general
matters I dealt with in the cross-examination.

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