Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-20/tgmwc-20-193.03 Last-Modified: 2000/11/05 COLONEL SMIRNOV: Thank you. BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: Q. Do you know the name of Rauff? A. Yes. Q. What was he at that time A. Rauff at that time was in charge of the motor cars belonging to the Security Service, as far as I remember today. I should like to say that at that time I had no direct connection with the Central Office in Berlin, as the Hauptamt of the SD was so organized at that time that between the lower divisions and the Head Office there was an organisational set-up, Oberabschnitt, which was abolished in September, 1939. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, the American prosecution kindly gave me the text of a document already submitted to the Tribunal which shows that orders concerning death vans were addressed specifically to Herr Rauff. These are the documents which I am now passing on to the Tribunal. These documents have been. submitted already. I am merely reminding you of them. [Page 207] BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: Q. And now, witness, I should also like you to look at the circle showing "Einsatzkommando" in the chart. Do you recognize the names mentioned there? A. I do not know yet which names you mean. Q. I am talking about the last circle, Einsatzkommando 2, 3, 8, 9, and others. Have you found the place? A. Is that another document? Q. No; that is precisely the same document. A. On the manuscript document which I have, I can see no such circles. It must be another document attached to another letter. Q. Please look at the circles around "Einsatzkommando." Do you recognize any of the names within those circles? A. On the document which is appended to the one signed by Obersturmfuehrer Seitl. Q. Do you recognize the names there? Particularly, did you know Gottschalk? A. No. Q. Dr. Lehmann? A. No. Q. Schultze? A. I gather that there must be a confusion of names there, and it should be "Schultz." Q. That is right, "Schultz." A. Yes, I know. Here we have "Schultze." Q. That is a mistake. I have it as "Schultz." A. I know Schultz, but not Schultze. Q. Was he a collaborator of the SD? A. I think that he was at that time Stabspolizei Chief somewhere in Northern Germany. Q. Do you know Biermann? A. I do not know him personally, but I have heard his name. Q. Who was he? A. I beg your pardon. I think that he was then a chief of the Secret State Police. Later he became Inspector of the Security Police and the SD. Q. Do you know Heinrich? A. I do not know Dr. Heinrich. Q. You do not know him? A. Was he the commander of Einsatzkommando 10? Q. No, Einsatzkommando 4, Hoehnscheid. A. I did not know him. Q. Hoffmann? A. No. Q. I do suppose that you knew Stahlecker, though? A. I knew him by name but I did not know him personally. Q. You are acquainted with the post he held, though? A. I think he was then inspector of the Security Police, or Stabspolizeileiter or Oberabschnittsfuehrer, but I cannot quite remember what he was. Q. And do you know Guenther? A. Guenther, if I remember right, was at that time inspector in Berlin. Q. Inspector of SD, was he not? A. There were no SD inspectors at that time; there were only inspectors of the Security Police. COLONEL SMIRNOV: I have no more questions about the chart, Mr. President. May I ask some other questions? [Page 208] THE PRESIDENT: Wait a minute - These letters "EK" in the circle at the bottom mean Einsatzkommando, I suppose, do they? And will you tell the Tribunal What the purpose of the chart is? What is the organization which it is supposed to define? THE WITNESS: The translation did not come through. Could you repeat your question, Mr. President? THE PRESIDENT: What is the organization which the chart is supposed to define? THE WITNESS: I suppose that it is the preparation of some plan of Gruppenfuehrer Heydrich to employ the offices of the Security Police and the SD, which were under his jurisdiction in case of possible complications with Czechoslovakia. The abbreviation "EGA" will mean Einsatzkommando (task force unit). Actually, later, when the German troops marched into Czechoslovakia units of the Security Police and of the SD went along which, just like the Einsatzkommandos and the Einsatzgruppen in the East, were mobile units of a very special nature which had been newly set up and had entirely new tasks, and which were dissolved later when the State Police office in Prague and the SD Department Prague were organized. THE PRESIDENT: Well, I am not concerned with whether they were later dissolved. Heydrich, I suppose, was in command of the whole of the SD, was he not? THE WITNESS: Yes, Heydrich was head of the SD Main Office and at the same time head of the Security Police, both offices personally united in him. THE PRESIDENT: Was Stahlecker a member of the Information Branch of the SD that you are speaking of? THE WITNESS: I cannot state that for certain. If I remember correctly, Stahlecker had at that time some function in East Prussia. THE PRESIDENT: You said just now, I thought, that Stahlecker was in Berlin? THE WITNESS: In East Prussia at that time. In my opinion, Guenther was in Berlin. His name was also mentioned previously. THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, was he a member of the SD Information Service? THE WITNESS: Yes, I think that he was then head of the SD, Berlin Oberabschnitt (Oberabschnittsfuehrer). I cannot say it with certainty. THE PRESIDENT: Ehrlanger, was Ehrlanger also a member of the SD Information Service? THE WITNESS: I do not know in what office Ehrlanger was then employed. I heard his name only later when he became head of Office I. THE PRESIDENT: What about Rauff? THE WITNESS: Rauff was then in' charge of the motor transportation corps of the SD head office, but here, too, I cannot state for certain whether THE PRESIDENT: What about the Information Service of the SD, was he a member? Was Rauff a member of the SD Information Services? THE WITNESS: He was head of a technical department in the SD head office. In the SD head office at that time, which handled foreign information and domestic information, there were several technical offices in the central head office No. I which were at the disposal of the entire Amt. THE PRESIDENT: Well, what about his functions? One of his functions was to work in the Information Service of the SD, in the Domestic Information Service of the SD? [Page 209] THE WITNESS: He was also in charge of the motor cars for the Domestic Information Service. THE PRESIDENT: Yes, but you can answer the question yes or no. Was it part of his function to work in the Domestic Information Service of the SD? THE WITNESS: Not in the Information Service as such, as far as I know. No, he only - THE PRESIDENT: Well, he had no competence, as you call it, in the Domestic Information Service of the SD? THE WITNESS: As far as I can remember, he was only in charge of the motor transportation of the SD Head Office; also for the Domestic Information Service. THE PRESIDENT: Does not that chart show that the SD was working in transport co-ordination with the Gestapo? THE WITNESS: In my opinion the chart only shows that the head of the organizations was prepared, in case of a march into Czechoslovakia, to employ men of both organizations there. THE PRESIDENT: And do not these documents show that your comment about the first document was inaccurate and that that document was being used by Schellenberg in September, 1938, for the purpose of organising the SD in Czechoslovakia? THE WITNESS: I think it is impossible that this document should have been used, because otherwise the date would have been filled in; and the Roman figures at the end of the document would have been indicated. Whether another draft was made later and submitted to Schellenberg, that I do not know. THE PRESIDENT: Well, you see that the first document is headed Roman III, Arabic 225. The letter to Dr. Best is also headed Roman III, 225, and it refers to the suggestion which is no doubt contained in that document; and the chart itself is also headed III, 225. THE WITNESS: Yes; I suppose that some other draft was made, for this is months later. This draft was almost certainly not used because then the Roman figures would under all circumstances have been indicated. In any case, the Roman figure III of that time had nothing to do with the later organization III, because the department from which the accused Office III originated was Central Department II/2. COLONEL SMIRNOV: Mr. President, in connection with the witness's replies on the fact that he does not know whether the confidential persons of the SD made up lists of persons who were to be annihilated or mobilised forcibly or else arrested and placed in concentration camps, I would like your permission to submit another short document pertaining to another country, to Poland, which contains the instructions of the Blockstellenleiter of the SD in Poland to his trusted collaborators. I ask your permission to read this document into the record. THE WITNESS: May I say one more word? There is nothing in my document about annihilation or concentration camps. COLONEL SMIRNOV: You will now have the document before you. May I quote the document? It is USSR 522. I quote: "Security Service of the Reichsfuehrer SS, Block Station Mogilno, 24th August, 1944." Translating verbatim. "To Trusted persons. Subtitle The preparation of the lists of Poles." The text follows: "I have repeatedly pointed out to you the necessity of paying special attention to the Poles. For that reason, I am giving below the speech of the Reichsfuehrer of the SS, Himmler, delivered on 15th, March 1940, at the meeting of the concentration camp commanders in former Poland, and according to the directives given in that speech, I ask you to submit to me the list of names of all the Poles [Page 210] concerned." Extract from speech, I quote: " For that reason, all our collaborators, both men and women, should consider it their most important and urgent task to prevent all unscrupulous leaders of the Polish people from exercising their activity. You, as commanders of the concentration camps, will know best how to fulfil this task. All skilled workers of Polish origin are to be utilised in our war industry; later all Poles will disappear from the face of the earth. In fulfilling this very responsible task, you must, within the prescribed limits of time, exterminate the Poles. I give this directive to all the camp commanders. The hour is drawing closer when every German will have to prove himself. For that reason, the great German nation should understand that its most important task now is to exterminate all the Poles. I expect all my trusted collaborators to report to me immediately all Polish grumblers (Miesmacher) and defeatists. For such a task we must also utilize children and aged persons, who can help us considerably, because of their so-called friendly attitude towards the Poles. Extract from Himmler's speech on 15th March 1940. Heil Hitler. SS Hauptsturmfuehrer (Signature illegible)" BY COLONEL SMIRNOV: Q. I would like to ask you now, after seeing this document, whether you still deny that the workers of the SD in the occupied territories trained and oriented all persons they could use to make up lists of such persons that were to be annihilated? A. Yes, I deny that, especially as I cannot state whether this document is a genuine one or not. Q. This document was captured by the Polish Army in Mogilno in the building of the SD. A. I take, for example, the words "camp commander meeting" as being absolutely impossible. I do not see what it could refer to and it seems to me impossible to ascertain what "Polish grumblers and defeatists" might mean. It seems to me absolutely self-evident that the Poles hoped that Germany would lose the war. Q. I am not asking you to make propagandistic speeches on the subject of Poland, I am asking you something quite different. I am asking you this question: Are you still denying the fact that the SD compelled those collaborating with it to make lists of persons to be annihilated? A. Yes, I deny that. COLONEL SMIRNOV: I have no more questions. THE PRESIDENT: What evidence is there that this document was found in the SD Headquarters? COLONEL SMIRNOV: It was not found in the SD Headquarters. That was not properly translated. THE PRESIDENT: Your answer did not come through. COLONEL SMIRNOV: This was not found at the central headquarters, Mr. President. It was not translated to you correctly if that is what was said. The document was found by the Polish Army - THE PRESIDENT: What was translated to me was that it was captured by the Polish Army at the SD Headquarters. Is that right? COLONEL SMIRNOV: That is right, but not at the central headquarters of the SD for Poland but at the headquarters in the Block Station of Mogilno. THE PRESIDENT: I did not say anything about the central headquarters. All I want to know is what evidence there is that it was found at the headquarters of the SD.
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