The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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M. MONNERAY: Yes, Sir.


Q. Did you often have the impression in the course of your
activity in the Gestapo that the State leadership was asking
you to carry out tasks which were contrary to what you would
call police duties?

A. In connection with certain questions during my activity
in Berlin, as well as also in Denmark later, I had the
feeling that certain duties were assigned to us which were
contrary to our duties as policemen; but in this connection
I must remark that I could only judge these questions from
the point of view of a police official and could define my
attitude to things only on the basis of my knowledge as
such, and I did not know what had caused the leadership to
make the decisions which were transmitted to us.

Q. You did not consider as criminal, for example, the order
intended for certain categories of Soviet prisoners?

A. I must honestly say that I was absolutely unable to
understand such an order, particularly since it could not be
explained at all by police reasons.

Q. But nevertheless the Gestapo lent itself to the execution
of these orders, did it not?

A. I cannot tell you that from my own knowledge.

M. MONNERAY: I have no further questions.

DR. MERKEL: Just a few questions, Mr. President.



Q. Did the members of the Gestapo who had been assimilated
into the SS by the assimilation decree come under the orders
of the SS or the SD and perform their service there?

A. No. The registration in the SS was merely an outside
measure, and after my formal entry into the SS in the year
1939 I did not perform any service with either the SS or the

Q. In the order of protective arrest issued by the RSHA was
the concentration camp already designated to which the
prisoner was to be delivered?

A. I think I remember that it was, but I cannot tell you

Q. Who carried out the arrests of those people against whom
an order of protective arrest had been issued, in case these
people were still at liberty?

A. Either the officials of the Gestapo directly, or possibly
also the constabulary and local police authorities.

Q. Who accompanied the trainloads of prisoners to the
concentration camps?

A. As far as I remember, this transportation was handled by
the general police administration in regular prisoner
transport cars which traversed the entire Reich area
according to a regular schedule.

Q. Did you or your office know anything about the true
conditions existing in the concentration camps?

A. No.

THE PRESIDENT: What do you mean by "regular schedules"? Do
you mean special transports or do you mean ordinary trains?

WITNESS: They were special cars for prisoners which were
used by the general police administration between the
individual prisons and which also carried ordinary
prisoners. These cars were attached to the regular express
and passenger

                                                  [Page 178]

trains, and these prisoners were also transported in these
trains. And so there were no special transports.


Q. Were the concentration camps under the Gestapo?

A. No. Concentration camps were under the Inspector of
Concentration Camps at Oranienburg, and as far as I know
this Inspectorate was under the Administrative and Economic
Office in the SS Main Office.

Q. The very document just submitted by the prosecution, 2521-
PS, also speaks for this fact, does it not, since the return
address is the SS Economic Administrative Main Office in
Oranienburg and it is addressed to all the camp commandants
of all the concentration camps?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you know about the annihilation of Jews at Auschwitz?

A. No. I only heard about these things after the ... after
the surrender.

Q. Did you know that Eichmann's activity was directly
connected with the biological extermination of the Jews at

A. As long as I was in office ... as long as I was in
office, and before the surrender, I heard nothing about
problems of that kind.

Q. When was the first time that you received reliable
knowledge about these things?

A. After the surrender.

DR. MERKEL: I have no further questions for the witness.


Q. Witness, you spoke of a decree under which the Gestapo
were permitted to use third-degree methods in Denmark, is
that right?

A. Yes, indeed.

Q. Was that decree in writing?

A. That was a written decree by the head of the Security
Police and the SD.

Q. And was it signed?

A. Yes.

Q. Who signed it?

A. As far as I recall, the first decree was signed by
Heydrich and the second one on behalf of Muller, but I
cannot say for certain about the latter -

Q. What was the date of the first decree?

A. I believe it was 1937.

Q. What month?

A. That I cannot tell you at this date.

Q. What was the date of the second decree?

A. 1942.

Q. Did you see both decrees yourself?

A. Yes.

Q. What was in the first decree?

 A. The contents of the first decree provided that for the
purpose of uncovering organizations hostile to the Reich, if
no other means were available, the person involved could
receive a certain number of blows with a stick. After a
specified number, a physician had to be called in. This
order could only ... could be used for extracting a
confession for the conviction of one individual. Approval
for this had to be obtained in every case from the chief of
the Security Police and SD.

Q. Wait a minute. Was the decree limited to any particular
territory, or did it cover all the occupied territories?

A. The decree of 1937 applied to the Reich territory, but I
believe it later applied automatically to the activities of
the Sipo in those regions where it was stationed. I cannot
remember any limitations.

                                                  [Page 179]

Q. Were there any other methods of third degree which were
allowed as well as the beating in this first decree?

A. No. According to the second decree only ... the only
measures approved were those which were milder than blows
with a stick. Standing at interrogations, or fatiguing
exercises. They are enumerated in the decree, but I do not
remember them all.

Q. You remembered one of them - standing up, for instance.
What was the provision of the decree with respect to
standing up during interrogations?

A. I personally never attended such an interrogation.

Q. I did not ask you that. I said, what was the provision
with respect to standing up?

A. It only said that the order could be given that the
person involved must not sit down during the interrogation
but had to stand.

Q. And how long were the interrogations? How long were they

A. The decree did not mention that, but -

Q. I said, how long were the interrogations? How long were
they actually?

A. Well, under the circumstances, they naturally lasted very
long. It was only in that way that standing up was a severe

Q. Was the number of strokes that could be used mentioned in
the decree? Did it say how many times a man could be struck
with a stick?

A. As far as I recall, this measure could be applied only
once to the same individual; that is, it could not be
repeated. And the number of blows, in my opinion, was
specified in the decree.

Q. And then the doctor was called?

A. No, I believe it was this way. If a fairly large number
of blows was prescribed in advance, then the physician had
to be present immediately.

Q. And what was the number of blows that was to be
permitted, do you remember that?

A. As far as I recall, twenty, but I cannot tell you that

Q. And both decrees covered all of the German Reich,
including the occupied territories, is that true?

A. Yes.

Q. And the decrees were effective in France, as well as in
Denmark, is that not true?

A. Yes, later. In the second decree, the power of approval
of the Chief of the Security Police was delegated to the
commanders - that was in 1942.

Q. So that after that the commanders could order beatings
without going to the head of the Security Police?

A. Yes, after 1942.

THE PRESIDENT: The witness can retire.

DR. MERKEL: Mr. President, I should like to make one small
correction ... a little misunderstanding which I think I can
clear up. While examining the witness, the Tribunal has just
mentioned a commandant in the occupied territories. I should
like permission to ask the witness whether he meant the
commandant of the Security Police or the commander of the
Security Police. They are two entirely different persons.

THE WITNESS: As far as I recall, the commander.

THE PRESIDENT: That is all. Thank you very much.

LT.-COMMANDER HARRIS: If the Tribunal please, I would like
to put one question to this witness, following the
questioning of the Tribunal. I believe that the witness
testified that in this second decree there was no provision
for beatings.

                                                  [Page 180]



Q. Did I understand you to say that, witness?

A. . No, I said beatings and ... but from now on still
further measures which, however, were milder in nature than
actual blows.

THE PRESIDENT: I thought, when I took it down, that he said
there were milder methods in the second decree, standing up
and tiring methods.

LT.-COMMANDER HARRIS: Yes, Sir; that is what I understood,
but I now gather that the witness admits that under both
decrees beatings were authorized, and that is all that I
wish to establish.

DR. MERKEL: I have no further questions to the witness.

THE PRESIDENT: What is it you want, Colonel Karev?

COLONEL KAREV: The Soviet prosecution will request the
permission of the Tribunal to present new documents
concerning the criminal activity of the Gestapo.

THE PRESIDENT: Yes, certainly.

COLONEL KAREV: First of all, I want to submit to the
Tribunal Exhibit USSR 258, containing excerpts from a list
of hostages shot by the German police in Yugoslavia. If the
Tribunal considers it necessary I shall quote just two
sentences out of this document: At the end of Paragraph 1 of
this document it says: "The executions were effected
according to the decisions and by order of the chiefs of the
Gestapo or the SD." Then I shall draw the attention of the
Tribunal to item "B" at the end of the second page, which
states as follows: "According to different informations,
lists, death records, etc., the following number of victims
has been established up till the present time ...." I omit
here a detailed enumeration of the victims and merely draw
the attention of the Tribunal to the fact that 337 persons
were shot or hanged in the year 1942, and at the very least
1,575 persons by the SD.

Then I submit here Exhibit USSR 465, which is the
notification issued by the German police about destroying a
number of villages in Slovenia and of shooting all the men
of those villages for helping the partisans. I draw the
Tribunal's attention just to these sentences again at the
beginning of which it is said:

  "On the 20th of July, 1942, the village of Krosnik and
  three other villages were destroyed and the male
  population shot. The remainder were deported, because
  they had helped the partisans and had carried out hostile
  activities against the German Reich."

One more sentence of the document:

  "In addition to all the measures taken here by the
  Gestapo, a number of civilians had to be shot as

The third document is Exhibit USSR 416. I shall not read it.
It is a list of citizens of Yugoslavia, compiled in the year
1938. The persons listed were to be arrested without any
charges of crime being made against them. Near every 4,000
names listed there was a note - whether the arrested people
were to be directed to the Gestapo or to the chief
administration of SD of the Reich. However, this document
was found in the archives of the Gestapo in Yugoslavia.

The fourth document is Exhibit USSR 418, captured from the
Germans. It contains a copy of an order to the State Police
in Yugoslavia with a decree of Himmler to arrest all persons
who had expressed their joy in connection with the defeat of
the Germans at Stalingrad.

I think, Mr. President, there is no need to read it all.

Finally there is Exhibit USSR 71. It is very brief and
consists of a wire sent by the German State Police to arrest
employees of the diplomatic service, attach‚s,

                                                  [Page 181]

diplomatic couriers, consuls, etc. The wire was sent one day
prior to the German invasion of Yugoslavia, an act which was
a violation of International Law.

This telegraphic message to arrest couriers, consuls, etc.,
is also mentioned in Exhibit USSR 316.

The last document is Exhibit USSR 518. It is the testimony
of the former Lt.-General Kappe of the German Army, which
states that the Gestapo killed their own collaborator, in
order to conceal the fact that a special secret installation
was made to overhear what was spoken by the chief. This is
all that I wanted to submit.

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