Archive/File: imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-17/tgmwc-17-167.01 Last-Modified: 2000/09/01 [Page 307] HUNDRED AND SIXTY-SEVENTH DAY SATURDAY, 29th JUNE, 1946 THE PRESIDENT: I will deal with the supplementary applications for documents. The first application on this list was on behalf of the defendant von Neurath, and that has been dealt with. The second was on behalf of the defendant Streicher. That was withdrawn. The third was on behalf of the defendant Donitz for an affidavit of former Fleet Judge Jakobs. That application is granted. The next two, 4 and 5, were on behalf of the defendant von Neurath. Those have been withdrawn. The next three, 6, 7, and 8, on behalf of the defendant Rosenberg, are denied. The next, on behalf of the defendant von Papen, have all been dealt with during the presentation of the defence on behalf of von Papen. The next two, on behalf of the defendant Bormann, are granted. The last three, 12, 13, and 14, on behalf of the defendant Goering, are subject to the possibility of agreement being reached upon the question of whether affidavits are to be presented or witnesses called, and therefore that application is postponed. That is all. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, before the Tribunal goes on with the business of the day, I should like to inform the Tribunal of the results of my inquiries as to outstanding witnesses and perhaps these could be supplemented by any of the learned counsel. My Lord, as far as I can see, there are the witnesses whom your Lordship has just mentioned, of the defendant Goering, dealing with the question of Katyn. My Lord, the next witnesses that were outstanding were three that the Tribunal allowed to be called for cross-examination if desired in respect to the case of the defendant Kaltenbrunner. I have just had a word with Dr. Kauffmann and he says that he will not require the witnesses Tiefenbacher, Steinbauer and Strupp for cross-examination. As far as my information goes, the next is Admiral Boehm in the case of the defendant Raeder. THE PRESIDENT: Before you get to that, Sir David, on the list that I have there was a witness called Strupp for Kaltenbrunner. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Yes, my Lord, there are three, Tiefenbacher, Steinbauer, and Strupp. Dr. Kauffmann tells me he does not want these. THE PRESIDENT: Very well. Then you were speaking about the defendant Raeder. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, there is the question of Admiral Boehm. Dr. Siemers was going to let the prosecution see an affidavit and I have not seen it yet, but, my Lord, I do not anticipate that the prosecution will require that witness unless the affidavit is in very different form from what I expect. My Lord, the only other witnesses that I know about are the three for which application was made by Dr. Fritz yesterday in the present case. The Tribunal is considering that. THE PRESIDENT: Yes. [Page 308] SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord that, as far as I can see, is the full extent of the outstanding witnesses, unless I have missed some. THE PRESIDENT: Was there an application for witnesses from the defendant Bormann on the 26th of June? SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Well, I asked Dr. Bergold this morning. He has only got one witness that he is calling, he told me, but he unfortunately is not here today. THE PRESIDENT: Well, I am told he has just now arrived. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Your Lordship's information is later than mine. THE PRESIDENT: It has only this moment come through. But so far as the others are concerned, there is only the one that Dr. Bergold wants to call now? SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: So Dr. Bergold informed me this morning. DR. BERGOLD: May it please the Tribunal, only one witness has arrived. But I have to put in several more requests which have not been decided on and I cannot say whether these witnesses will ever arrive or whether they can be found. The Bormann case is characterised by the fact that not only the defendant cannot be found but almost all the witnesses cannot be found either. In the course of today's proceedings on the Bormann case I should like to put a special application before the High Tribunal which I do not wish to do just now. THE PRESIDENT: One moment. Will you tell us exactly which witnesses you are referring to? In your letter of the 29th June you withdrew your application for Fraulein Christians. DR. BERGOLD: Yes, Mr. President. THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Kloepfer is the witness who just arrived in Nuremberg. DR. BERGOLD: Yes. Then there are the witnesses Kupfer and Rattenhuber who are still not here and also the witness Christians. THE PRESIDENT: Well, Helmut Friederich has not been located? DR. BERGOLD: No, he has not been found. THE PRESIDENT: Are you wanting to call Fraulein Christians? DR. BERGOLD: She has not yet arrived either. She was at Camp Oberursel She received leave and while on leave disappeared - obviously she has fled. THE PRESIDENT: Have you got your application of the 26th June or did you make an application of the 26th June? DR. BERGOLD: Yes, I did make an application. THE PRESIDENT: Whom did you ask for then? DR. BERGOLD: Just a minute, I have to consult my secretary. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Fraulein Christians and Dr. Helmut Friederich. THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Kloepfer and Friedrich. SIR. DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Yes, and Fraulein Christians, my Lord. DR. BERGOLD: On the 26th June I applied for the witnesses Falkenhorst, Rattenhuber and Kempka. I could dispense with Falkenhorst if I might have Dr. Kloepfer instead. THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Kloepfer is the only one who has arrived, as I understand it. [Page 309] DR. BERGOLD: Yes, the only one who has arrived, Mr. President. THE PRESIDENT: What the Tribunal wants to know is how many you want to call now and with reference to the others you had better withdraw them if you cannot find them. DR. BERGOLD: Very well, your Lordship, I wanted to put in an application for postponement. The witness Dr. Kloepfer has only just arrived. Up to now I have not had a chance to talk to him and I consider it unfair to him to have to testify immediately. He is not prepared, he does not know the documents which have been presented by the prosecution, and I myself do not know whether he has any knowledge about the things on which I want to question him. Therefore, I should like to apply for the proceedings in the case of Bormann to be postponed until 10 a.m. on Monday to give me the opportunity to see my one, chief witness, and to discuss the case with him. I do not even know whether I want to have the witness interrogated for he may possibly make statements that are quite irrelevant. It is not my fault that I have not seen him until now. I applied many months ago to have him brought here and I would not have found him even today if, at the last moment, I had not had the very kind assistance of the American prosecution. I have also spoken to Sir David Maxwell Fyfe and I consider a postponement until Monday at ten would be quite reasonable in order to give me time to prepare, as the defendant has not been here and my witnesses have not been here and I have not been able to prepare anything. THE PRESIDENT: Well, Dr. Bergold, you have had many months in which to prepare your case and the Tribunal has put the matter back for you already for a very long time and this witness is now here. You can see him immediately and the Tribunal thinks you ought to go on. You must have known that the case would come on in the same way every other case has come on in its proper place, subject to the licence which has been allowed to you to have your case put back to the end, and all your applications for witnesses and documents put back to the very latest possible moment. The witness is here and we still have some time to deal with the witnesses for Fritzsche and documents. The Tribunal thinks in those circumstances you ought to go on. DR. BERGOLD: Mr. President, it is quite correct I have had months at my disposal, but if I can obtain no witnesses and no information - I ask the Tribunal to put themselves in my place. Of what use to me are many months of waiting, months during which I could do nothing? The witnesses were not here, nobody could tell me where the witness Kloepfer could be found. He was only found at the very last moment. I cannot discuss the entire case with him in fifteen minutes. I am just asking for a very short postponement until Monday morning. The Tribunal will lose only a very few hours through that. It is not my fault that I have been assigned such an unusual defendant, one who is not present. THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, the only thing you propose to prove by this witness is the alleged fact that Bormann is dead and any evidence he can give about that. That is what the application says. DR. BERGOLD: No, may it please the Tribunal, that is a mistake. The witness Kloepfer cannot testify to that. He can only give his opinion as to the rest of the Indictment, namely whether Bormann is guilty or not. Only the witnesses Christians, Lueger and Rattenhuber can give evidence as to the death of the defendant Bormann. But the witness Kloepfer can only testify concerning the Indictment itself. THE PRESIDENT: Where is the application for Kloepfer? Where is your application? DR. BERGOLD: It is my application of the 26th of May. THE PRESIDENT: Let me see it. Have you got it there? Dr. Bergold, have you not anything else at all in the way of documents or evidence that you can continue with without calling this witness Kloepfer? [Page 310] DR. BERGOLD: My Lord, the data at my disposal are so small and meagre that I myself do not know whether they apply until I have questioned the witness. Up to this point I have been dependent on pure supposition. I have not been able to receive or obtain any effective data. They are all legal constructions which can be made untenable by one word from the witness. MR. DODD: Mr. President, I have an objection to any postponement for this case. As the Tribunal has pointed out, counsel has had months, and has had every co-operation from our office, both for his documents and for his seeking out of his witnesses, and if he would stop talking and go out and talk with his witness, who is here now, I think he might be prepared to go on with his case. THE PRESIDENT: Dr. Bergold, the Tribunal will go on with the case against the defendant Fritzsche now, and in the meantime you will have an opportunity of seeing this witness Kloepfer, and if after seeing him you wish to make further application, you may do so, but the Tribunal hopes that, if you can ascertain what the nature of his evidence is, you will be able to go on with it. I now have your - I had it only in German before but I now have it in English - your application for the witness Kloepfer, and a summary of it is that he was head of Section 3 in the Party Chancellery "and he can deal with questions relating to constitution of law and elaboration of laws and that he is to testify that the activity of Bormann in the proclamation of laws and ordinances was an entirely subordinate one." That is the only reason why you allege that you want to call him in your application. DR. BERGOLD: That is my supposition. There is the possibility that the witness, of course, really knows much more, for he was one of the chief collaborators. I drew up my application very carefully, because as a lawyer I did not want to submit a fantasy to the Court. THE PRESIDENT: Well, I have said what you can do with reference to Kloepfer and are you still asking to call a witness called Falkenhorst? DR. BERGOLD: I can decide on that only after I have talked with the witness Kloepfer. In all probability I shall forgo the calling of this witness, Falkenhorst. THE PRESIDENT: Well, you heard what I said, Dr. Bergold. You can now see Dr. Kloepfer. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I only wanted the Tribunal to know that that was the position as to witnesses and when your Lordship asked me, I said that the process of finishing off witnesses might take two days. My Lord, subject to the Katyn witnesses, it might take much less than that, as I am at present advised. THE PRESIDENT: Yes. And when shall we be informed what the position is with reference to the Katyn witnesses, as to whether there is an agreement as to using affidavits or calling witnesses? SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, I will make inquiries and try to let your Lordship know at the end of the session. THE PRESIDENT: I take it that we shall not be able to go into that this morning. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I do not think so. Apart from that, there are certain outstanding interrogatories which counsel for the defence may want to refer the Tribunal to, but that is the only other matter I know. From the point of view of the prosecution, there may be a few documents which will be put in more or less to clarify points that have arisen during the case, rather than formal evidence and rebuttal. They will be quite small in number and will not take any time. THE PRESIDENT: Were there any documents on behalf of the defendant von Neurath which have got to be dealt with? [Page 311] SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My recollection is that there were one or two interrogatories, but apart from that I do not know of any others. THE PRESIDENT: Perhaps those matters had better be gone into on Monday morning. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: If your Lordship pleases. THE PRESIDENT: Well, the Tribunal hopes that counsel for the defendants understand that the Tribunal will expect them to be prepared to go on with their speeches on behalf of the defendants directly the evidence is finished. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, it is to try to give some indication of the time that I ventured to intervene this morning. THE PRESIDENT: Yes. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: As I understand it, the proposal is that Professor Jahrreiss will make his general speech first. THE PRESIDENT: Yes. SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: I understand the Professor is ready to do that and I thought it would be useful if it were known that that might occur even on Monday. THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Then, now, Dr. Fritz, perhaps you will continue with your witness. MORITZ VON SCHIRRMEISTER - Resumed DIRECT EXAMINATION - Continued BY DR. FRITZ (counsel for the defendant Fritzsche): Mr. President, gentlemen of the Tribunal, I beg to be permitted to continue with the examination of the witness von Schirrmeister. Q. Witness, yesterday, at the end of the session, we stopped at the point dealing with the anti-Semitism expressed by the defendant Fritzsche in his radio speeches; in connection with that point, I have a further question. According to the statement made by Dr. Goebbels: To where were the evacuated Jews to be sent? A. Up to the first year of the Russian campaign, Dr. Goebbels, in the conferences over which he presided, repeatedly mentioned the Madagascar plan. Later he changed this and said that a new Jewish State was to be formed in the East, to which the Jews were to be taken. Q. Do you know whether, in dealing with reports from abroad concerning alleged German atrocities, not only toward the Jews but toward other peoples as well, Fritzsche always had inquiries made at the RSHA or other offices concerned? A. Yes. Not only with regard to atrocity reports but all propaganda reports from abroad which were unpleasant to us. He made inquiries sometimes at the office of Muller, at the RSHA in Berlin, and sometimes he inquired of the authorities that were directly concerned in these matters. Q. And what other agencies were concerned besides the RSHA where he might have made inquiries? A. For example, the Ministry for Food, the Armament Ministry, the OKW; it all depended.
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