The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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SWEDISH COMMITTEE AGAINST ANTISEMITISM
Formed in accordance with the declaration of the
Nansen committee, Oslo 1983

Box 34036
100 26 Stockholm
tel (46) 8 667 60 90
fax (46) 8 663 01 02



Radio Islam
Broadcast 13-14 December 1991
11 p.m. - 6 a.m.

The following is a partial transcript of a Radio Islam broadcast first
aired in December 1991 over the Stockholm communal network. The
transcript contains about 70% of the IHR interview. The main feature
of the broadcast was the interviews conducted by Ahmed Rami during his
visit to the USA in early December 1991. Rami claims he was invited to
the USA by "Black Muslims" to give lectures, and took the opportunity
to visit with the Institute for Historical Review.

By way of introduction Rami first plays some anti-Jewish parts of a
speech held by Louis Farrakhan in Madison Square Garden in 1985, aired
by Rami previously. After this he introduces his German
"correspondent", Karl Philipp, who accompanied Rami during his trip to
the USA and took part in some of the interviews.  The IHR is
represented by Tom Marcellus, Ted O'Keefe and Mark Weber. Ahmed Rami
continually uses French or Swedish expressions. They have been altered
only when interfering with reading comprehensibility. Please see
copyright note at the end of the transcript.

/.../

MARCELLUS: First of all let me say how pleased we are to be here with
Mr. Rami and Radio Islam, and speaking to the Islamic community in
Sweden. This is a great and rare opportunity for us.

/.../

PHILIPP: Tom, you mentioned the Holocaust and what is it, what can be
refute on the Holocaust? It's, isn't it fact what we hear in the daily
medias, 6 million Jews have been exterminated mainly in gas chambers
in the Nazi territories. What is it what the Institute wants to
[inaudible] on this?

/.../

O'KEEFE: /.../ On the question of the Holocaust we revisionists,
following in the American and international revisionist school,
challenge the verdict of Versailles following the first World War and
sought at least in this country to, to keep America out of the second
World War. We have attempted merely to apply to the study of the
so-called Holocaust the, the historiographical standards that should
be applied to investigating any event in the past. And by that
historical method the evidence for a Hitler order, a German policy to
exterminate the Jews of Europe, the deaths of Jews in, in, in any
numbers approaching 6 million and a massive use of gas chambers is,
is, is, the evidence for that is, is virtually nil.

/.../

PHILIPP: Some people are obviously what I heard from Tom not happy
with the work you are doing, I heard of arson attacks and attempts.
Why is this?

/.../

WEBER: The Institute calls into question some of the most widely held
beliefs of our time, which have enormous political and social
significance. It's very, the whole story of the, during the second
World War 6 million Jews were killed was a major part of the
indictment the defeated German regime in 1945, and the...alleged
extermination of the Jews was a major reason why the Allied powers
were able to portray themselves as noble as they could, and in an
effort to portray the defeated German regime in the most evil way as
possible. But to call into question the story of the...6 million
exterminated Jews, is to call into question...a major foundation of
the State of Israel for example...And for that reason, especially
Zionist interests have been very, very active in trying to stop the
IHR at every turn. The Institute for Historical Review is certainly
the major publishing centre in the world for books and articles,
leaflets and so forth which call into question the generally accepted
Holocaust story. And for that reason it has been viciously and
enormously unfairly attacked by some of the most powerful individuals
and organizations in the United States or even in the world.

/.../

O'KEEFE: We are often attacked, it is often said and I believe this is
through propaganda of the Anti-Defamation League of Bnai Brith,
America's most powerful opinion police, they have said that we have no
trained historians working with us. This is not true. We have at least
5 men who have attained doctorates in history on our editorial
advisory committee. Furthermore, we have specialists, precisely
because of the failure of literary and professional historians in this
country and elsewhere, we have specialists in evaluation of texts and
documents, specialists in the study of chemistry, specialists in the
design  and construction of gas chambers. In other words, we are
getting very close to the facts or non-facts of this Holocaust just as
in a routine criminal investigation...We are much closer to the actual
details of what happened than the literary and paper historians who
come forth, issue statements and testify at trials in Germany and
other places.

/.../

WEBER: I think it is very important to understand that what...the
public believes is the Holocaust story, is not the same Holocaust
story that was told 20 or 30 or 40 years  ago and is not the same
Holocaust story that even those historians who believe generally in
the Holocaust story now accept. For example, many important aspects of
the extermination story that were once held to be absolutely settled
and confirmed, have been admitted to be untrue...It was once claimed
that people were gassed at, in concentration camps in Germany proper
such as Dachau and Buchenwald and so forth. These claims were made at
the Nuremberg trial of 1945, 1946, but have since been completely
given up. The attention has focused completely now to claims of
gassings only at 5 or 6 camps in what is now Poland. Auschwitz,
Majdanek, Belzec, Sobibor, Treblinka and Chelmno, and essentially
claims of extermination gassings have been given up in all other
places, in all other camps. Other stories, such as stories that Jews
were steamed to death in steam chambers during the war have been given
up. Stories that Jews were killed in mass electrocution facilities
have likewise been given up over the years, or the story that the
Germans manufactured bars of soap from the bodies of murdered Jews is
another canard, another myth that has also been abandoned. But the
general public has what could be called a very Hollywoodish, a very
childish view of a very evil Hitler who was ranting and raving about
killing the Jews and gave order to kill all the Jews, and that there
is this vast extermination apparatus set up for this purpose. That
story...is not accepted by scholars, even scholars who generally
believe there was an extermination of the Jews. Among those who
believe that there was a mass extermination of Jews during the war,
most of those scholars are now what are called functionalist,
functionalist historians. They believe that there was an extermination
but that it was not planned, that there may not have been an order for
it, that there was no budget for it, there was no central organization
for such an extermination and that it took place as Raul Hilberg, as
Christopher Browning and others have, have written and said, as a kind
of spontaneous...unplanned event, while we believe that all of this
does is underscore just how weak, just how illusive evidence for any
extermination program or policy really is. And we believe that the
burden of proof should lie not with us who are trying to investigate
this whole story, but the burden of proof should lie with those who
make the accusations. And one of the most remarkable things that has
happened in recent years, is that under the impact of Holocaust
revisionism those people who try to uphold the Holocaust extermination
story have been forced to try to present evidence for an extermination
policy or program, and that millions of Jews were killed. And the
astounding thing, for anyone who cares to really investigate it, is
that the evidence that is presented is laughable, it's
minuscule...it's very hard to believe just how ludicrous really the
evidence that is presented by those who are now on the defensive and
forced to try to defend this...accusation, this monstrous accusation.
The other thing that I think is more and more obvious in recent years
to millions of people in the United States and...in Europe and other
countries is the political nature of the Holocaust extermination
story, that is the claim that Hitler killed millions of Jews is used
in a political way to justify policies even today in the State of
Israel, or to justify American support for Israel. Without the
continued and massive military and economic support for the State of
Israel from the United States of America, Israel's very existence
would be very quickly called into question. But...the Holocaust
extermination story has other purposes as well, other political
and...social purposes. And the very fact that in our time and in our
day, that...what is said to deny the Holocaust is considered a crime
is itself evidence of just how powerfully politically important this
whole story is, because in our age, in our time it is not considered a
crime or even considered...an offence to quote deny or to call into
question any other chapter of history. One of the remarkable things is
that...in countries which are considered, European countries or the
United States, which are considered Christian countries it's not even
considered wrong to as it were deny the divinity of Christ or to mock
or belittle Christianity. What it shows I think is that the Holocaust
story has taken on even a kind of theological dimension, it's become
almost a kind of religion. And those people who defend it, especially
the less informed people who...are in the mass media, defend the
Holocaust story with a kind of tenacity which is comparable only to a
religious faith.

O'KEEFE: I'd like to agree with Mark and add something
further...Revisionists are often accused of slandering the entire
Jewish people by doubting the Holocaust, acting as if or believing as
if the Jews have conspired as a group. I don't think that's true. But
there is a small number, not merely of Jews but...of historians and
politicians throughout the Western world who have indeed conspired to
keep this ridiculous and slanderous story alive. I don't believe that
a historian, a professional historian who has studied the Holocaust by
the same canons as he studies any other subject and failed to see that
it's a lie, that therefore by implication makes such an historian a
liar. We know that these people are liars, they're learning that we
know that they are liars, there's soon going to be a very interesting
denouement. Furthermore, the politicians, the people who are using the
Holocaust for its political impact to justify the murder of
Palestinians, the slaughter of Arabs throughout the Islamic world,
should bear in mind that they will be judged some day perhaps as
sternly as  the German people and their allies during the second World
War and Germans today are being judged for their alleged complicity in
these offences. Isn't it interesting that we drag out the same old
lying atrocity stories to justify and to empower an assassin like
Shamir, a mass-murderer like Begin, a low killer like General Sharon
in their crimes against humanity?

/.../

O'KEEFE: Of course our opponents quite unscrupulously confuse the
difference between this intellectual construct, the Holocaust, and the
actual physical things that happened to Jews and others during the
war. They claim that by challenging the concept of a special
Holocaust, a mass sacrifice of Jews, we are denying the existence of
the concentration camps, the German policy on the Jews, the expulsion
of the Jews and so forth. It's ridiculous!...In fact, anyone who reads
revisionist publications will know that revisionists have, starting
with Paul Rassinier...revisionist scholars have studied what went on
in the concentration camps far more closely, and I submit far more
sensitively than the exterminationists have.

/.../

MARCELLUS: The Holocaust story as it has come to be known, as Mark
pointed out, having developed into a very powerful propaganda
political weapon, is the...allegation that the...Nazi German
government planned and actually carried out a systematic annihilation
of the European Jewish population...and that they largely succeeded in
this, having killed 6 million Jews and that this was largely done in
lethal gas chambers. So these are the 3 components of this, of this
lie. First of all, that it was...deliberately carried out, planned and
attempted. Secondly, that...it resulted in the death of 6 million
Jews, innocent victims. And thirdly, that this...largely took place in
lethal gas chambers. Well...we are attempting to revise this what has
become orthodox or established history, especially here in the West,
by pointing out the fallacy, by...bringing in people and associating
with people who are investigating this in great detail and finding out
that the emperor as it were has no clothes. And of course for this 
we've been attacked continuously. /.../ So we formed the IHR, and we
began bringing these books out in high-quality affordable editions, we
began promoting them in various places, we were getting them into
libraries, we began publishing our quarterly Journal of Historical
Review and our IHR Newsletter, and we found that much of the impetus
to keep this going was not only that...thousands of people...really
wanted this literature and wanted to learn more about the Holocaust,
but that the opposition itself, in this country mostly the
Anti-Defamation League of Bnai Brith and also the Simon Wiesenthal
Centre, began attacking us so strongly that we...suddenly realized we
must be doing something right, we must be on to something here.
And...this also added to the impetus, so since that time interest in
this topic...has continued to expand  and grow because...we caught
something here and we started to take it apart, and it's revealed that
this massive, this massive campaign to convince the Western world of
what allegedly took place in Europe...before and during World War II
has...no basis in fact, and..this gigantic whopper as, as some of us
call it here is, is all the more fascinating because of the fact that,
that it is being shown to be a, a hoax. And so there are all sorts of
angles on this, who..was doing this, why where they doing it, what's
the effect of it, it's being used now as a political propaganda
weapon, how is that being used, what are the ramifications, there's
just enormous interest in this topic and we are practically propelled
or compelled by people who, who read our literature and by our
opposition to continue this line of research until we get to a final
conclusion upon which all men of good will can agree.

PHILIPP: Mark, how would you describe the reception of your work in
North America, is it a growing readership and what kind of numbers
would you...

WEBER: I think there's no question that Holocaust revisionism is much
better known and even more accepted in the last several years. It's
hard to measure this thing very well, because many individuals who
agree with us, who are inclined to support us are afraid to say so
publicly. /.../ There is no question that the Jews of Europe suffered
a catastrophe during the second World War. Many Jews died, many Jews
were even killed, but what happened..is not one event. What happened
to the Jews of Europe...could be compared to what happened to the
Germans during the second World War. Many Germans died, many Germans
were killed but we don't give a single name [Holocaust] to the fate of
the Germans during the second World War...In the popular consciousness
the fate of the Jews during the second World War has more
significance, more import than the fate of any other people during the
second World War. And that is a, an imbalance, a...distortion of
history which we feel is really wrong and in fact this distortion
exists for, we think, self-serving and obviously motivated reasons.

PHILIPP: Well Ted, that leads to the conclusion Jews or Jewish
organization must have tremendous power in the Western world, why
would they otherwise be so much in favour of other nations although,
as Mark said, they have suffered as well and we only know the, the
label for, for one suffering and this for the Jews and the Holocaust.

O'KEEFE: Well, I don't think you can blame Jews exclusively,
many...groups are powerful throughout history, many groups
have...pushed their own suffering. I think you can look at the...moral
laxity of non-Jews in...surrendering to this, one must congratulate
Jewish organizations, let's say the hierarchy...of persons and
organizations which gives orders and leads Jews just as they attempt
to Gentiles, for their persistence here...One can point out that this
alleged near-extermination of European Jewry has had many names, and
it's getting names still. It was 'genocide' or 'the final solution',
then the 'Holocaust', now people who are a little more in, a little
more modern refer to it...as the 'Shoah', in Hebrew I believe it means
the destruction. And there is another word the 'Khurban' which is
coming on, it seems to me...this is a little telling. Someone who has
a dubious or shoddy product to, to merchandise will keep changing the
name...for public relations in fact. Secondly, on this business of
judeo-centrism, it's very true what Mark says. We have this magical 6
million number which has no basis in...any sort of realistic
demographics whatsoever, but increasingly throughout America and the
Western world the, the fate or what happens to Jewish people is judged
on an entirely different standard than...what happens to other people.

/.../

O'KEEFE: It's quite important to stress that despite what the media
and what our professional detractors and enemies say, revisionism is
not a right-wing movement, is not a racialist movement, is not a
religious movement. We have, the revisionists writing now, producing
for our Journal...and forwarding our work, who are Jewish, who are
leftists, who are anarchists, who are homosexuals, who are
fundamentalist Christians, we have atheists, we have one member of our
board who is a Moslem, we have a Japanese member now, we have always
been very, we're all Americans. The Institute for Historical Review
has an American orientation, I believe it is most important for
Americans to learn from revisionism. We as Americans profit greatly
from the protections in our Bill of Rights.

/.../

PHILIPP: I refer to Louisiana again and...such a breakthrough in, in
the public voting for somebody [David Duke] who is described as a
Nazi, as the incarnation of Hitler. If that continues and it...will
come to a wider view in the public and your institute will succeed in
getting...the message across that there were no gas chambers, this had
been wrongly put forward, what is the institute's next step if that
task has been fulfilled, if...

MARCELLUS: Well, I think an important...aspect of all this is
something we have to continuously keep in mind, is that when we are
slandered by groups such as the Anti-Defamation League of Bnai Brith,
the Simon Wiesenthal Centre and those are able to influence in the
media, and we're smeared by them and linked with...these terrible
words like neo-Nazi, antisemite and so forth, I think we have to
constantly keep in mind that it's necessary for people to get to know
us. It's necessary, maybe not, perhaps not personally but trough our
literature, through our Journal and through our Newsletter. And the
more people we can reach with this material, the better able we are to
convince them that we are not a bunch of crazies, that we are not
cranks, that we are serious scholars, that we're honest people. We're
Americans, we're interested in the truth, we're not interested in
attacking any specific group, we're interested only in bringing
history into accord with the facts...What happened in Louisiana, the
way the media attacked Duke and the words they used to attack him
with, the way they slandered him, I think...it points up how important
it is for Americans to, to know what revisionism is, what Holocaust
revisionism is and what it means. And that the people who are
promoting this point of view are interested, have honest motives, have
decent motives and I think that the more we are able to accomplish
this, the less effect the opprobrium in the media, the attacks from
the media, the attacks from the ADL, the less effect these will have
until finally, it our hope, nobody will listen to these, to these
ranting and raving groups and will understand that they are ones,
really, who are protecting interests. They are the ones who have a
great financial and political investment in the perpetuation of these
lies. Right now...they attempt to deflect attention on to us by
calling us names, but I think as time goes on the spotlight is going
to focus more on them and their motives, and I think as the public
realizes that their motives are not very clean, that they are trying
to protect vital interests, that that's going to start to change
things in the United States and perhaps all over the world.

/.../

WEBER: It is not us who say that the fate of the Jews during the
second World War should be politicized or emotionalized. It is in fact
over and over our adversaries, individuals for example as Elie Wiesel
or Deborah Lipstadt who insist that the Holocaust is so unique and so
special that it must serve a very important political and what they
call educational role. We believe that if history is to be learned
from, if we are to learn lessons from history as people say we should,
it should be looked at with the same sort of objectivity that we look
at any other aspect of history. And the history of the Jews during the
second World War should not be given a special status different than
that of any other aspect of history. And we believe that if one is
seriously, tries to answer the questions we have raised one cannot
help but come to the kind of conclusions that we have come to. But it
is in fact our adversaries who insist that their should be no
questioning,  no discussion of this issue of history. In fact...one of
the very, very sad and hypocritical aspects...of this is that many of
those who insist, as a group of scholars for instance did in France
several years ago when they insisted there must not be any debate or
discussion about the gas chambers or the Holocaust, that many of these
people are themselves scholars who insist upon investigating, insist
upon scientific and sober and objective discussion about every other
aspect of history. But on this one aspect of history they insist
not...And one of the ways in which it has changed, is the matter of
who is guilty for the Holocaust or who's guilty for all of this.
During the second World War and for a few years right after the war
the guilt was supposedly that of Hitler and his small group of, a
circle of colleagues, or perhaps the guilt was that of the German
people. But interestingly enough, in recent years the Holocaust story
is used to in fact indict all of humanity. Increasingly, everyone is
guilty. Not merely...the German people as a people, but all Europeans
and in fact all of humanity is considered collectively guilty for
this. It's...a further example of a real kind of judeo-centric view of
history, that...what happens to one group of people...has this very
special status. And another interesting aspect too of it in the last
year...is that even the leaders of the Allied countries, of the United
States and Britain and the Soviet Union are also increasingly
considered guilty if not for carrying out the Holocaust extermination
of the Jews but for permitting it to take place. This was done just
recently by Elie Wiesel in an interview in which he denounced Winston
Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt for permitting the extermination of
Jews to take place. And this is so perverse, this is such
a...distortion of history. Not only of the objective facts of history
but of the meaning of history that this points up again the need and
the importance of the work of the IHR and of Holocaust revisionists
around the world.

/.../

MARCELLUS: I think, to answer your [Rami's] question as directly as I
can, if..the media, if the mass media in this country treated equally
and fairly the viewpoints that we have, as they do the viewpoints of
the opposition I think...this would immediately bring, bring an
enormous change, a political change in this country. The IHR
itself...is not a political organization, but of course the work that
we do has powerful political implications. If it were suddenly
permissible to say that the gas chambers did not exist and we have
proof, that the 6 million Jews were not killed because there is no
evidence, if it were permissible to say this in the press and if the
editors of the big newspapers and the writers of these newspapers were
willing to say this, without at the same time accusing us of being
crazy, I think it would make Congressmen, Senators free to, to
criticize the Israeli lobby, free to...do things more...conducive to a
better America and a better world rather than every time they do
something, doing it for the benefit of Israel and Zionism. I
think...if we could speak freely about this in...the academia,
in...Congress and in the public forums, in the mass media, I think it
would severely, severely reduce the power that the Zionist lobby has
in this country and perhaps even in the Western world.

/.../

RAMI: In reality the American state should give you help, financial
help, because I think Philipp now ask you about the...Jewish
propaganda which compare revisionism with AIDS. I think what is the
characteristics of AIDS and cancer it is that when the body has losed
the immunity, and I think the Jewish power, Jewish propaganda are the
really [inaudible] immunity from the society because they are
dominating all the mass media, TV, radio, and I think they are the
really AIDS and cancer...and I think you are the little rest of the
immunity in the American society, you are the symbol and sign of the
health in the American society. And I think, as Muslim, I think all
the free people must help you because to help you is to help the
truth...I don't say that you have the absolutely truth, but you are
fighting for the truth, for what you believe that is true...And we
must help you...What our listeners, young pupils from the school,
normal people, ordinary people from the Sweden, what they can do for
to help the revisionists?

/.../

MARCELLUS: We have a very popular and powerful pamphlet series of I
think 7 or 8 different pamphlets that address various aspects of
historical revisionism and the Holocaust story, and these,  we have
distributed the hundreds of thousands of these. Some of them are...in
various languages now, perhaps if some of these could be translated
into your language and, and these could be handed out to, around
schools, in the neighbourhoods, perhaps...that would have some
positive impact.

WEBER: I have a very specific suggestion. I urge your listeners who
support our work and wish to help us to get in contact and to contact
Mr. Ahmed Rami, and to form an organization of revisionists in Sweden
of Swedish people, because in many different countries now there are
very active and very good organizations of...revisionists, in France,
in Italy, in Britain, in Belgium, in the Netherlands, in the United
States, in Canada, but as far as I know there's not a really good
organization or periodical and such in Sweden. And we believe it would
be a very, very good thing if those listeners who wish to help should
organize together and the person to get in contact to do this would be
Mr. Ahmed Rami.

/.../

MARCELLUS: We do have a number of supporters that we send our
literature to in Sweden and who do subscribe to us now...It's
increasing, yes it is increasing. This is true of all European
countries.

/.../

WEBER: This charge of being Nazi, or neo-Nazi or being antisemitic is
one that is made now I think so often that it is losing a great deal
of its impact...And all these other kinds of charges, all these silly
accusations in the long run will mean nothing.

MARCELLUS: And I think your listeners should also know that, that we
don't fear this term 'Nazi'. That we, we are in favour of studying
that period of history and finding out the truth about that period. If
Hitler did not order the extermination, if the Germans, the Nazis did
not carry out the extermination, then let's know that, let us know
that and let's talk about that and let's bring it out into the open,
and let's determine what really did take place from 1933 to 1945. And
just to close, finally...your listeners should know that the Institute
feels that the United States should not have been in World War II,
that we had no business being in that war and that in fact our own
President at the time, Franklin Roosevelt, did everything in his power
to get us involved in that war for various political reasons. So this
again sets us up against the establishment if you will of history and
makes our work very difficult but when people call us names like
neo-Nazi, these are names that are designed to make others think that
we are not legitimate. That name itself does not bother us.

/.../

WEBER: Another example is that, it's a very, very thick book
published...in the United States and in France by the Klarsfelds, a
long book by Jean-Claude Pressac as an attempt to answer the
revisionists. A very expensive, a very thick, a very well-illustrated
book. This was also really a disaster for the exterminationist side,
because the more they attempt to get into an argument, the more they
have to deal with very specific questions, specific details. And the
more one talks about specifics, the more one talks about real facts,
concrete facts, the more this is a disaster for their side and the
more this is a victory for our side. Because as I said before, the
Holocaust story is really very largely a kind of political propaganda
construction. And it's very interesting that those people, even many
scholars who are supporters of the Holocaust extermination story go
about defending it in precisely opposite way that a professional
historian is supposed to operate. What generally they do is to start
with the assumption that the Hitler government killed millions of
Jews, and then they go out and try to find evidence to support that
view. That is precisely the opposite of the way a historian should
operate. A historian should be interested in gathering evidence and
then determining what this is evidence [inaudible]. In the case of the
Holocaust story, the historical establishment almost always operates
in precisely the opposite way and in...really an illegitimate way.

/.../

RAMI: Have you, Marcellus, something to say about the Zionist
lobby...here in USA. What do you think about the future of this lobby,
do you think that this power of this lobby is more stronger or how is
the situation now?

MARCELLUS: I think the power of the Zionist lobby is perhaps at its
apex, or...no I would say it was at its apex 5 years ago, or between 5
and 10 years ago, and is now beginning to go on a downward trend. And
I think...I see the power declining as we are able to say the word
'Zionism', as we are able to say the word 'Jew' or 'judeo' or 'Israel'
without having to practically bow down and apologize every time we say
it. I think the more we can speak about the Holocaust, the more we can
speak about Israeli influence and Zionist power in this country, the
more we can openly speak about it I think their power can only decline
as a result of that. Free expression, freedom of speech in our
Constitution, our Bill of Rights, we as Americans hold these rights
very dear and I think...that the power of the Zionist lobby in this
country can only keep a lid on this for so long. It can only stifle
open debate for so long before it's gonna bust wide open, and when it
does I...think it's gonna be devastating for the Zionist power in this
country.

WEBER: I would...add, I think there are two objective factors that
have also been responsible for a change in attitude. One is...the
intifada in Palestine. This is an event which...is now widely known
around the world and has made it much more obvious the nature of the
Zionist state in a way that was not obvious before. That is...I think
an objective reason why there, a part of the objective reason why
there has been a change in attitude. Another thing that has changed in
the world and will have even a greater impact in the next 10 years and
20 years has been the enormous changes in Eastern Europe and the
Soviet Union, the end of the Communist world. Because all of the new
governments which have arisen in Eastern Europe are essentially
revisionist governments. What we are seeing is the end of the post-war
order that was established in 1945 by the victorious powers of the
second World War, especially by the Soviet Union and the United
States...The climate is now created for a much more objective
understanding of history, and a much more objective understanding of
really the world I would say, that was not possible before. For 40
years both the United States and the Soviet Union were essentially
interested in creating a world, although they were adversaries and
were against each other in many ways, each of these 2 countries were
however in favour of a world in which, well, a national heritage,
religion and culture would have basically be done away with
and...subordinated to a world of consumers and producers. We have seen
in the last several years though and...in the collapse of Communism an
enormous revival of...national consciousness and cultural
consciousness in Eastern Europe and in Europe as a whole. And this
runs completely counter to the outlook...of the post-war order that
was established in 1945 by the Allies. So we are seeing in, throughout
Eastern Europe and...the former Soviet Union the rise of, of new
states which are inherently revisionist in their nature.

/.../

WEBER: In the last several months there has been an enormous increase
in American popular support for...a foreign policy which puts American
interests first. There's a very, very widespread belief and it's been
articulated especially by Patrick Buchanan and by others as well but
probably most eloquently by Patrick Buchanan, but there is very
widespread belief that America is, is now facing very, very major
economic and social problems here at home, and that America no longer
really has the luxury any more of spending enormous money and effort
and time in adventures in foreign countries...what you might say an
America first policy. Well, this...policy really isn't so much
anti-Israeli, but it has the effect of...being anti-Israeli because
it's basically saying America should treat Israel as it does any other
country. That is, we shouldn't have any special ties and give them
special consideration and special money. There is going to be in the
years ahead...a much greater clash, a much greater conflict between
you might say Jewish-Zionist interests in the United States
and...other interests here. For example, there has been increasing
tension over the last 10 years between...Black Americans and Jewish
Americans. And this was manifest a few weeks ago in what could perhaps
be called a pogrom in...New York State, in which one Jew was killed by
a mob shouting 'Kill the Jews'. Something like that hasn't happened in
Europe since the second World War. And increasingly...as America sort
of breaks down racially and ethnically, tension and conflict between
various ethnic groups has increased in this country. Not between
Whites and...non-Whites as much as between various non-white minority
groups, including the Jews. For many years...Jewish groups were you
might say the forefront or the vanguard of minority interests in the
United States, but in the last several years other minority groups,
Blacks, Hispanics, Asians and so forth, are less and less willing to
allow, in effect, Jewish organizations...to speak for them and to be
their representatives. So that's something...that will change in the
years ahead...Even though David Duke was defeated in Louisiana, the
fact that he got the support he did is...an expression of just how
deeply the felt the rage and disgust is among millions of Americans
with the direction the country is going in...Now, all of this kind of
dissatisfaction has not yet manifest itself in a very concrete or very
specific political way. And again, when I was talking earlier about
attitudes, popular attitudes towards Israel or Zionist interests, this
again does not yet manifest itself in...concrete political form or in
policy. But it's there and it's definitely a very palpable and real
thing, and it's bound to be more consequential in the years to come.

Rami now interviews Karl Philipp.

RAMI: Now I will ask you Karl Philipp about the Jewish lobby or Jewish
power in Germany today. Can you tell us what is the situation today?

PHILIPP: Well, Jewish powers in Germany or I would rather say the
influence and the power of Jewish organizations, I would not describe
it as a general Jewish power, is certainly there and I like to quote a
famous politician in the German Bundestag, his name is Heinrich
[inaudible], he described it with the following words. He said: If I
say shit-Jew I will be convicted, if I say shit-German nothing
happens. So, as what he said, the relationship with the Jewish
communities in Germany and maybe Europe-wide is not normal.

RAMI: You mean that Jewish, Jewish lobby and the Jewish...community
have privileges and that the Judaism has privileges, and that the
German people...is discriminated in Germany?

PHILIPP: Well, you could have put this way. Heinrich [inaudible] made
it very clear. If...I getting convicted, if I even get a [inaudible]
sentence when I say shit-Jew, but at the same time when German people
getting defamed, getting called bad names nothing happens, so you can
only conclude that they have certain privileges and I think this has
to be stopped, it has to be changed. Otherwise we, the Jewish
organizations themselves will create a tremendous anti-Jewish feeling
in the country. Now when it comes to the boiling point that people
feel they being oppressed, they cannot express their opinion, that
they are not allowed free speech it will result in, in other terms of
resistance.

RAMI: I don't understand why the German people accept this
discrimination. Why they accept that the German people have not the
same rights like the Jewish in Germany?

PHILIPP: Well, this is easy to describe. We have now a country you
could say 24 hours a day in the electronic medias like TV and radio,
we have...atrocity propaganda against Germany, we...getting told 24
hours a day and 30 days a month and 365 days a year what have done
supposingly to the Jews, and that makes it in a way making the Jews
saint and making the German people criminals, and I don't think that
this could go forever without causing tremendous problems.

RAMI: /.../ The Jewish power, the Jewish propaganda has tried to
exterminating all national feeling in Germany. Do you think that the
nationalism will...come back to German nationalism again?

PHILIPP: It will as certain come back than as it came back in the east
part of this world. Look at the Soviet Union, look at the eastern
countries. It has been for 70 years not only suppressed, they have
slaughtered about 60 million people just to wipe out national
feelings. But you cannot wipe out a natural element which lives in the
[inaudible] of people...it will come back with thrust. And this is
what we experience now in Germany, and of course, again, Jewish
organizations and their lobbyist politicians in Bonn and their
lobbyist politicians in Paris and everywhere try to...eliminate this.
But people start wondering why would the Jews in Israel not accept,
why would the Israelis not accept any other influence in Israel, but
Jewishsm [sic] at the same time, the same leaders, demand from other
countries 'get yourselves destroyed by invasions of millions of other
people'. And this is the question people asking now themselves, I give
you more details. Rabbi Yitzhak from Toronto, Ginsburg from Toronto,
he said in '89 first of June, it was printed on page 1, he said 'to
slaughter Palestinians, that is allright. Because the blood of
non-Jews and Jews are not the same'. With other words the blood of
non-Jews is of lower quality, and that's allright to kill them. So
this is an attitude which is shared by the leaders, by Jewish leaders
throughout the world, for instance in Germany the leader of the Jewish
congregation Heinz Galinski he is supporting Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg
and he is supporting Israel so with other words he is supporting this
horrible racist attitudes! And people wondering...why is allowed for
the Jews being racist in a way which is terrible and disgusting,
criminal. And at the same time these same Jews are demanding the
European nations to surrender their national identity to millions and
millions of immigrants. At the same time, what is it causing? For
instance, in Europe especially Germany we had traditionally very good
relationships with the Arab countries, excellent relationship. Real
deep friendship you could say. Now, of course millions and millions
and millions of Arab people flooding into our country, flooding into
Europe, and no nation can accept this...This is invasion and any
invasion is causing resistance. In other eras it had been war right
away, this time because of the propaganda it's tolerated. But what do
they achieve the Zionist propagandist in Israel? Naturally, our good
friendship with the Arab states is suffering or even breaking apart
because due to these immigration invasions the people in Europe start
hating the Arabs. And this should not be the case, we should have our
relationship maintained what we had before. We should really care for
this and we should support the Arab countries with our technology,
because it's our natural ally against Zionist power and attempt for
world domination. So, and we have to support these Arab states and
we...sell everything to Israel from the...biological weapon to atomic
bombs, which they threat the Arab nations with it. That will never be
a course of peace and we have to change our policy. So I think with
this immigration business it's also part of Zionist strategy in Tel
Aviv to put something in between...to create conflicts and this is
what we have to [inaudible]...

/.../

RAMI: But Jewish power they are totally dominated your country, the
West, politically, juridically, culturally and economically. And this
is...a paradox, big paradox that the mass media in your country they
are telling very positive about the Jewish nationalism, nationalism,
Jewish chauvinism. Even if this Jewish chauvinism, objectively, and is
to kill, to exterminating Palestine people, to dominate [inaudible]
this is Jewish nationalism, aggressive nationalism. But when I have
been recently in Germany, and when I visit USA and when I [inaudible]
in Sweden, people in the West are just asking about to be, to have
their country to ourselves [sic], Germany for German peoples, Sweden
for the Swedish people, France for French people and I think if this
nationalism is just defensive, I mean the French nationalism, the
modern German nationalism want just to have own country to own people,
I think it's, it's positive. If...massmedia are telling
positive...Jewish nationalism, which is aggressive because Jewish
nationalism don't want only have domination on Palestine but want
their domination...on German people, to own the German country, they
are working for the German [sic] domination in USA, the German
domination, Jewish domination in France and I think it's duty for
every French, every German person to make resistance and to
be....nationalist in the positive meaning, I mean if this nationalism
is just defensive and not...make expansion like the Jewish and Zionist
nationalism.

PHILIPP: Well, of course. This is absolutely the fact. Nationalism is
described...as you outlined it, just Germany for the Germans, France
for the French and...Arab [sic] for the Arabs. This is natural thing,
but the difference is what they try to telling us is that nationalism
would be something like chauvinism, would be something like
imperialism. But...who are the imperialists? USA is calling themselves
far away from nationalism, but they suppressing the whole world. They
are destroying the culture everywhere with oppression, with financial
oppression, big military oppression etc. What is this? This is the
real evil in this world! Nationalism cares only for their own nation
in their own territory. What is wrong with this? This is a natural
element. But of course they are telling us this is bad, because of
their own activated strategy to destroy the nations. And look at their
slaves, their lobbyists, I refer to Chirac in...Paris. What kind of
guy is this?...Jacques Chirac in the first place playing along with
the ideas of Zionist congregations in Paris, condemning nationalism
saying 'OK, we need and we want all the Arabs' and now he says 'Arabs
and Blacks are stinking people, we have to kick them out'. So, what
kind of arrogant attitude is this? Of course, Arabs are not stinking
people, they are just human beings like we are and the only thing is
if they are coming millions it will be a hostile atmosphere. But you
yourself, you are a Moroccan and I...think you can speak out of
experience that there was never a hostile feeling against you in
Sweden, and there would be none in Germany, there would be none in
France as long the number is in a size where...people don't feel
threat. So, it is obvious that it is a set-up of Zionist plans, you
know, launching this conspiracy, creating hatred between the Europs
[sic] and the Moslemic, Islamic world which should not be the
case...it's a Zionist conspiracy! They want to part us, and this we
have to avoid. And we have to support the Arab nations, I believe our
natural ally is these days only the Arab, Islamic world.
America...itself is, as I saw the other day in TV...to a great extent
under Zionist lobbyism. So what can we expect from there? Nothing!
Bush, George Bush, he launched the war against Iraq for and in the
interest of Israel, and those who don't believe this, Chancellor Kohl
had confirmed this himself 16th of September 1991 at a press
conference in the White House and the Rose Garden together with Bush.
It slipped out of his mouth, he said he doesn't know anybody who did
more for Israel than George Bush. He even launched a war for him [sic]
and took responsibility for it. You see, this is the domination of
Zionist powers in that number one power of the world. So, in order to
break this evil power we got to support, with our technology, with our
economy the Arab world. We got to support the Islamic world, it's our
natural ally. Our nationalism, the same as the Arab nationalism. It's
a defensive element, it's an element caring only for their own but
never imperialistic, never chauvinistic unlike Zionist...aggression,
unlike US imperialist. Look, we are united in Germany now, they
telling us we are a sovereign country. Now, why would, why do the
Americans still have to be in Germany? Why is it still that we have to
bear and endure the occupation of this country? There is no threat
from the East! Who is threating [sic] us? Nobody is threating us. But
I think the, the [inaudible] from this power are in a way scared that
there could be a change of politics within Germany, and that's why
they need probably the American occupation powers in order to maintain
also Zionist powers.

RAMI: Can I ask you, now the Jewish dominated mass media present this
victory in Gulf war as a Western victory. Do you...think that this is
a victory for the West or for the Jewish?

PHILIPP: Well it's of course only, plainly a victory for Israel. It's
a tremendous disaster for the West. There is a 150 million Arab people
who are hurt by this action. This was absolutely terrible, it was
unjust, it was a double standard and again I have to repeat myself, it
was a war launched for Israel, Chancellor Kohl himself said this. This
is a fact, it slipped out of his tongue! And people now asking, how
come there were 700 resolutions against Israel over 25 years of time?

/.../

PHILIPP: The Arab people will not forget whatever the propaganda tries
to tell us. And this is what I call...a disaster for the West. We're
gonna lose our face in the Arab countries and it is awful for the
future. Our historical, wonderful relationships will suffer. And we
have to stop this madness that the Western world will just do what
Israel demands, we have to stop this madness.

RAMI: You are from Germany, I will ask you, do you think that war, the
war two was for America or for the Jewish...power?

PHILIPP: Well, again I only can repeat myself. Kohl...himself
confirmed it, it was the war for Israel.

RAMI: And the World War II?

PHILIPP: Oh, World War II, this is interesting. In 1933 the...Jewish
World Congress already declared war against Hitler and no Jew was at
that time really discriminated and being chased or whatever, so, and
in '39 Chaim Weizmann declared 'we're gonna get America into this war,
how we did it, the same way we did it already in the first World War'.

Of course they had special interest in this Jewish
organization...Zionist organizations in World War II as well, and now
as Peres said two years ago after World War II the world became
Jewish. That tells it all...I think, and this cannot go on forever. It
has to be stopped, the relationship has to be normal and we cannot
tolerate this kind of oppression in the world.

RAMI: I remember somebody tell me that if we can...make liberation of
the West we can help you in the Arabic world against the Zionist and
I...answer them that if you can...make liberation of the West we can
liberate the Palestine ourselves, because Israel cannot exist without
support from your countries and I think now we in the Arabic world we
are convicted [sic] that...must first liber [sic] USA, must first the
people in the West fight for to liber the West from the Jewish power
because Israel, the Jewish power in the world are dominated...the West
and they using all the West as tool for to dominate our country and
for to domination of Palestine.

PHILIPP: Well, I like to quote Israeli...attorney, lawyer Felicia
Langer who spoke recently in Stockholm and she herself stated that it,
Israel succeeded very well by blackmailing the West, by getting the
West - even America - under their thumb.  And I agree, once the
support in arms, once the support of money will be restricted to [sic]
Israel...the problem for the Palestinian people and the suffering will
come to an end. And all these people and politicians who are praising
[probably meaning 'preaching'] humanity are most of the time
hypocrites, because they are closing their eyes at the terrible,
horrible massacres on the Palestinian people in a way what only sick
minds can, can commit. When I heard this from Felicia Langer that
pregnant women getting tied up with hand and feet and have to deliver
their babies, what, how can you tolerate such a thing? And by the
West, supporting Israel again with money, with arms and weapons and
everything, this is supporting this crimes, this is being part of this
criminal actions. That has to stop, that has to come to an end and we
have to try to convince and to, to get this truth to the people, that
they eventually will recognize here is a Zionist interest working and
in place, and we have to stop this, we have to think of our own
interest and that will solve the Middle East crisis.

RAMI: I can tell you that when I was in Morocco, all my life I
was...against nationalism, against chauvinistisc [sic]
nationalism...Zionistic nationalism. But when I come to Europe and I
met that all, all newspaper, all mass media, TV, radio are...make
glorifiration [sic] of the Jewish nationalism and chauvinistisc, very
reactionary nationalism. And in the same time they are fighting all
mass media against the Swedish nationalism, German nationalism, fransk
[Swedish for "French"] nationalism and I now hope that a very strong
nationalism can wake again, can grow up...again in Europe for to
fighting against the horrible, this criminal and expansionist Jewish
nationalism and I hope even that a new strong nationalist leader can
come...in German [sic]. And I ask you, is possible a new nationalism
can [inaudible] in the West?

PHILIPP: It will come. It's bound to come. We look at France, we see
how Le Pen, it's gaining popularity, how he's gaining support from the
masses and serious polls show if there would be an election today he
could expect at least 20 percent of the votes. That means Le Pen's
party, the Front National would automatically become the strongest
party. We have seen the success of Haider in Austria, and certainly
something will come up in Germany and all the other countries because
it's an unnatural course what's taking, what's on the track right now
and that will not go on forever. And again you pointed out absolutely
correct, we have to denote, we have to see the difference of
propaganda when they are telling us we are anti-, we are this and we
are nationals, and we are of course of national care. Again, natural
element! But we are not like the Zionist, imperialists, chauvinist who
are going into other countries, eliminating the culture there,
suppressing the people, killing the people! No, no, no! We are caring
for ourselves and not in criminal actions abroad. This is the
difference. And I like to refer again to Israel. Israel is the same
country, nobody complains, nobody's dared to complain against Israel
although it's the only country I believe, or maybe the second after
South Africa which was condemned by the United Nations in 1975 being a
 - and still today this is valid - labelling Israel a racist country.
So what is  this? A racist country...from the United Nations condemned
as a racist country, is denouncing other countries who only want to
care for their own country, remaining...Germans, remaining French
people, calling them nationalist! How is this? /.../ Stop Israel's
criminal actions, this is all to it.

RAMI: What do you...want to tell something to the Swedish listeners
and to Swedish nationalist, in your opinion how can they make nice
work, nice job for to fighting against the, this Zionist domination in
Sweden?

PHILIPP: Well, the first step must be, analyze what is the Swedish
interest. And when they have determined this is our national interest,
let's go for it. Automatically they will...discover all foreign,
especially Zionist influence and will just cut it off. That just what
we...have to do in Europe and everywhere, is to say [inaudible] Sweden
first, and you're Jewish, you're Jewish in your congregations in this
country, just adapt yourself to it. And obey the national law! And if
Israel doesn't accept any other nationality within Israel, and if they
even having a...very high check on immigrants they have to prove that 
for centuries! There have been Jews already. Good God, I mean we can
at least ask for our minimum rights...you can live here, no problem
but you obey our national law! And once this is determined I think the
world will be in a better shape. Swedish people in the first place
have to research, they have to look into it. They have to establish
who is owing, who is directing the medias. Who owes [sic], is
directing the economy. Who is, who has got the saying in the judicial
system? And who is the influential part in cultural business and
aspects? Democracy means fight concentrations, democracy means a
widespread pluralism. In that case, look into it. See who dominates
the medias, look into it. Who has got the economy in it's hands? Look
who dominates the cultures and setting up this. Once you have
analyzed, once you have determined you will immediately know where the
Swedish interests [inaudible] down the floor, and you will have to
re-establish Swedish interest. The real question is...are the Swedish
interest really in the foreground? Or are Israeli interests are
dominating? This is what Swedish people have to find out, what they
have to analyze and to get it in a straight matter, to get it back to
normal again. I refer to the nonsense what they're telling us with
minority exclusive rights and if they refer to democracy, minority
have to follow the majority. Why do they turn it upside down all of
sudden? You see, in democracy the majority rules. But it, when it
comes to Zionist interest, they just turn it upside down! All of
sudden, minority should have privileges. This is nonsense, and I give
you a more hardening example. In Israel the majority are Palestinians,
they have been living there for thousands of years. Israel has driven
them out of their wide land and in the occupied territories they
haven't got a saying at all! Not even down to the lowest official
office, nothing! Israel would never grant a Swedish person to have any
rights in Israel, but they demand all the rights, Zionist lobbies
demand all the rights for instance in Sweden. How to compare this? How
to accept this? This cannot go on, every Swedish person must object
this. Get your rights, and Israel should be happy with the same rights
what Israel would grant a Swedish person. A Palestinian who has been
driven out by Israel and who lives abroad has no rights to come back
to his own country, but an Israeli can get right, can obtain right
away Swedish [sic] citizenship. Every Jewish person in the world,
every Jewish person - I repeat this - has got the fundamental right to
come back to Israel, to settle in a land where he has never lived
before. But a Palestinian - again, I repeat this again - a Palestinian
has to be driven out by Israel from his own soil, is not allowed to
come back, is not allowed to come back to his homeland. And this is a
standard a democrat, a freethinking mind cannot tolerate. And I give
you another example. Every, every Jewish person in the world is
granted the right to go to Israel. It was established in the first
place that this international law of humanity was violated from the
very beginning. Just imagine that France says only a French person who
can prove that he is French by blood for centuries is allowed to come
to France. It would be a scandal world-wide, racism...would be the
screaming. The same thing applies for Germany and Sweden. Israel can
do it...without causing any complaints in the world. Jewish are
allowed to come to Israel...come to a land which was taken away by
violence from the Palestinians. And Palestinians who have been
compelled from their own land, driven out by Israel powers, forces,
are not allowed to come back to their own home land! And the world
community is silencing this criminal actions down and I call on all
Swedish people, when Jewish leaders in Sweden are demanding
immigration laws that other nations can come in as they wish to, tell
this people 'yes, we will accept this as once as Israel allows us and
any nation to settle the same way in Israel. When this is settled,
when this is equal, yes we accept this suggestion but not before'.

RAMI: This...big problem that the humanity, human beings today must
fighting for equality with the Jewish. Jewish today want...domination
over all the world with special rights, with discrimination, with
apartheid against other human being, especially against the
Palestinian people, and...I hope that one day in the future the German
people can have the same rights, equality with the Jewish people in
your own country! It's a scandal [Rami's voice breaks] that you, Karl
Philipp, militant nationalist, German nationalist, you have not, you
have not right to express your opinion in the mass media as the Jewish
have. If you are Jewish you have all mass media open for you, but
because you are German you are discriminated! What is your feeling,
feeling against this discrimination?

PHILIPP: Well, this is why I feel very much attached to the
Palestinians. I call the German state a Palestinian, a Palestinian
state in Europe and yes I agree, I wish we would have the same rights
and I hope the say will not be too far that we will reinstate our
fundamental rights, and I hope it also in the sake of peace between
Jews and Germans...in Germany. It, it cannot ever end peacefully if
the majority is discriminated, if the majority has to suffer an
apartheid. This time not in South Africa, this time between Jewish
leaders in Germany being just the long arm for Israel, and the
majority of German people. That cannot go on, and I appeal to every,
every reasonable man to stop this! Otherwise the masses will revolt
and it will then cause a lot of turmoil, a lot of trouble and, and
innocent Jews will suffer, and innocent Germans of course. And I want
to avoid this, I want peace. But peace can only be if we stop Zionist
superiority.

RAMI: And which we call the just peace, peace and the justice and the,
because the peace without justice are not, is capitulation. I think
the Palestine people, the Arabic people, Muslim people and the
Palestine Golf [sic] in all the Arabic country are feeling the same as
you, we are. The new Jewish world order want build this Jewish order
on the Muslim and German peoples som [sic] capitulation. But I think
any people in the world can accept humiliated like this humiliate,
humiliating capitulation.

PHILIPP: No, certainly not and again I, I state it again. I'm neither
a  militarist, I'm neither a militant and I'm just a national oriented
German and I want our people have the same rights, as you said, than
minorities like the Zionist in Germany and at least the same rights.
And I also believe that what they doing at the moment can never, can
never succeed...There's more than 1 billion Islamic population and
naturally they are not very close to Israel, so you just cannot ignore
this power and it has shown in the conference in Teheran and others.
It has to be solved reasonable before, before a disaster takes place.
And in the sake of humanity, let's be reasonable. Let's stop this
madness! This is my appeal to all Europeans.

RAMI: I, I read Nahum Goldmann book 'The Jewish Paradox', and he self
tell that 70% of Israel...infrastructure are build of, with German
money. Money from you! From your generation was not was living in the
Hitler time, and now still you still pay much money to...the Jewish
from Soviet was not, because the majority of the Jewish in...Israel
are from Soviet, from the East, which have no problem with Hitler.
What you are feeling against that, even your generation and the future
generation must pay to the Jewish person, the Jewish state milliard
and milliard [sic] Marks every year?

PHILIPP: Well, this is a very interesting point and...it's more
interesting yet to refer to, to 'The Jewish Paradox' by Nahum
Goldmann. Yes, in 1979 the official amount paid to Israel and Jewish
people world-wide resulted officially in 86 billion D-Mark. And it was
said at that time that's the end, that's finish. But ten years later
that amount was increased by another 47 billions up to the year 2030.
And just recently, Israeli leaders demanded just double as much as was
paid by now, when originally Adenauer negotiated 3,5 billions only.
So, now we are, we have achieved, we have received, we are now in the
[inaudible] 100 billions, will be increased by another 40 billions and
now the demand is additional 100 billions. That means every non-born
German, any child which will be born next year or in 5 years will have
to carry this cross for its entire life. And as some Jewish leaders
demand, forever the German nation will have to pay for this. But I
give you something else to consider. It's not the German nation who
only pays. America, the ally of Jewish people during second World War,
the natural ally is paying every year more than any other country in
the world for Israel. And look into your country, in Sweden. Let's
suppose there was a demand from a third world country, let's say
Mongolia, and a demand from Israel for money to the government of
Sweden. What would you believe, who will get the money? Mongolia or
Israel? So, it's not only Germany who has to carry the alleged guilt
and carry...the cross on this alleged guilt.

RAMI: And now I...the Jewish so-called people can tomorrow pay the
Palestine people all reparation for all destruction and extermination
as committed of the Jewish Mafia against the Palestine people.

PHILIPP: Yes, the Palestinians and other Arabic states who have been
massacred by Israel have to file compensation demands...equal rights
for everybody that applies for everybody, and Israel has to repay,
Israel has to compensate.

RAMI: But as you know, with the world, with the world opinion was
maked of the Jewish mass media, they have double, double standard.
This mean that just Jewish have all rights but the Palestine people
have no rights because...now it's very bad I think when the people
speak about occupation in the world, German occupation or the
occupation, French occupation, it's very negative. Occupation,
colonolization [sic], it's very negative. And when has Iraq has
occupied Kuwait was very negative occupation. But when the mass media
are speaking the Jewish occupation in Palestine and about intifada,
it's not anymore something against civilization. No, the mass media
are presenting the Jewish occupation as a part of civilization,
civilization action in Palestine.

PHILIPP: Yes, unfortunately we have this double standard...but luckily
we can observe now a growing critic on this. You can see that in
America, you can see that in Europe for the first time critic on this
actions of Israel is really growing and is growing strongly and is
growing fast. And I do believe, and this is my hope, that it will even
find its way into the mass medias and there will come new medias, and
nothing is lasting for ever.

RAMI: And I think if we can...Muslims in collaboration with the
Germans, with Swedish, with French nationalists, with all the free
nationalist people in the West, if we can stop the Jewish power and
the Zionist Mafia, Zionist domination, I think the peace can come back
to the world and we can have democratically regime...in our country,
and all immigrants can come back to our country because they are not
out after to dominate. Our immigration, our Muslim or Arabic
immigration they are not...living in Germany, France now with
idea...to dominate your country. But the Jewish cause, Jewish, Zionist
domination in our country have provoked many problems which force our
people, many of our people, our employment, to export this problem to
the West. But I think if we can resolve the Jewish, the Zionist
problem, I mean occupation, the Jewish occupation, I think, I am sure
that all Muslims and Arabs  and people from 3d world will...move back
to their countries. And I think if now your governments, now this
problem in Europe, you have this problem because you have the Jewish
dominated governments, this Jewish want make chaos and civil war in
your country because the Jewish, Jewish Mafia...is a minorite [sic]
and they want make many, many small minority and when...you have many,
many, many minoritets [sic] the Jewish minorite can have the power.
Because they have already power now as minorite, but they have not the
number, the quantite. But if they have...many people from other
countries they can use them against the...local population. But I
think our interests, our Muslim interests is to help, to support all
the anti-Jewish, all anti-Zionist movements and ideologies and
nationalism in the West because if the West can liber themselve [sic]
from the Jewish occupation, Jewish power, we can easily finish with
the Jewish occupation of Palestine when Israel has not anymore the
support from the West.

PHILIPP: Well, if we had diverted our financial help for Israel to the
Arab world we wouldn't have an immigration problem right now. The, as
you pointed out, the Moslemic immigration is not coming to our
countries in order to take over government and take over leadership,
take over domination. They are just coming in order to make a living.
If they can make a living in their own countries they will go back,
this is no problem and the problem will be solved. So, this must be
our emphasis. To divert the money from Israel into the Arab countries,
number one. And who, they only try to, to divide us. Calling us
nationalist  and calling us therefore racist and saying we are, we
would be the enemies of the Arab world. This is of course a lie. Look
at the Gulf War, it was only the national movements, the national
parties in Europe who supported Iraq against Israel, against the USA.
Not the leftist, no, nothing else. It was only the national movements.
How can the nationals then be racist or enemies of the Arab world?
This is nonsense! It has just to be normal, it must be normal
standard. And that will come, and together with the Arab countries we
will find a solution.

RAMI: And not just supporting us this nationalist movements like Le
Pen, and the nationalist...movement in Germany. This nationalist
movements, Le Pen, in Germany, in Sweden, they are not
just...supporting the Arabs' rights or...the justice in the Gulf
War...Because Le Pen was the only independent leader in France who was
independent from the USA strategy, because the French government in
this case, this war, was just Jewish tool! American tool...because
America means Jewish...because the Jewish are dominating USA. USA is
not free in the politic and...in the Middle East, the
Israel...deciding all the strategy and the tactic. And I use to say
that in France really Le Pen was today's de Gaulle! Because all other
party...was not after the French interest, was after Jewish and
American-Israel interest.

PHILIPP: Personally I can only agree to that and it...was really awful
how the propaganda worked, and...when we now see what kind of
massacres the united armies have committed in Iraq, one can only turn
his head very disgusted to that and, but again, it had his impact and
a lot of people have been woken up by this. And I hope it will take
its course, and I think we are on the right track.

RAMI: And I remember when Le Pen speeched [sic] the journalists that
'I am not supporting Iraq, Saddam, I am supporting the French
interests'... and it tell them that this war is not for France
interests or for German interests or for an European interest, it's
from Jewish, from Israel interest...And I think it's...very, very
important too that the West will not offer, will not sacrify [sic]
the...own interest for Israel, for Jewish Mafia's interest.

PHILIPP: Well, I think it has changed a little bit. Even though they,
Israel has strong lobbyist in the Western government we recognize at
the moment a little bit of resistance towards Israel. And I think this
resistance is only caused by the, by the unhappiness of the people and
if this...unhappiness is growing either the governments have to adjust
to the peoples' will or they have to make room for new governments,
and I think the second option will come anyway whether they like it or
not. Time is ripe.

Rami now interviews Radio Islam's American "correspondent" Manfred
Koch, who speaks with a slight German accent.

KOCH: Good evening Mr. Rami.

RAMI: Thank you. Here under [sic] my visit here in California, in Los
Angeles, thank you for your hospitality.

KOCH: You're quite welcome.

RAMI: And I will give you the opportunity to explain for Radio Islam's
listeners from your point of view the problem of here in...USA, the
problem of the Jewish power and the...Jewish lobby's power here on the
USA's political, finance and cultural, mass media.

KOCH: Well, you just said the word mass media. There is throughout the
United States I feel hardly a paper that could report any event no
matter what it is without Jewish control. We do have about 35% of our
major newspapers, are either Jewish-controlled or Jewish-owned so
therefore there is a heavy Jewish censorship. So you find that
particularly, and I would like to go into the subject of the Holocaust
where very blatantly, very openly see the censorship that is taking
place in the United States. Just like in Europe, maybe not quite as
bad as in Europe, you are not really permitted in open publications to
question the Holocaust. And I think you have that in Sweden as well,
and I think you've been in jail for that. Wasn't it?

RAMI: Yes, yes. True, yes.

KOCH: So in other words, if anybody wants to know whether the
Holocaust is true or not all he has to do is speak up once against the
Holocaust and see what the consequences are. They are either called
insane or uneducated, incurable nazis or such things. But perhaps most
of your listeners know about that already, or is that a subject that
is not too well-known?

RAMI: Yes, Radio Islam and even in my books we have, I have explain in
Radio Islam and my books this problem but I, I will now when I am
visiting here directly ask in the life,  the American citizen who are
living here and can...directly explain to me the mechanism of
this...domination.

KOCH: The mechanism of the domination of course is kept quite under
cover, because if the average citizen on the street would see the
Jewish domination he would revolt against it and there would be rising
antisemitism in the United States, which there is anyways. But like
any obscure act or any dishonourable action it is under cover, and it
isn't quite that open. One sees it when one can read the articles
correctly,  when one can see the Jewish censorship in the various
subjects. For instance, we have several prominent Jews like Mike
Milken and Ivan Boesky and...some Jew banker by the name of Wise who
have literally robbed the American people of billions of dollars. I
don't know if you've heard of the [inaudible] and loan debacle. Those
billions of dollars that have suddenly disappeared out of the American
banking system will now have to be made up by the American working
man. He has to reimburse the banks that stolen money, and yet the
papers do not condemn these Jewish bank robbers if I might call them.
They're working very hard and saying these men are highly intelligent
and they should not sit in jail. It would be criminal to have that
intelligence sit in jail. Now on the other hand if a Christian would
steal  just one tenth or 1% of that kind of an amount, no matter how
intelligent he is, he would be in jail. There's no question about it.
And therefore looking at that from this point of view you can see the
Jewish power trying to get their criminals off. Look what they do with
Pollard, John Pollard who gave these atomic secrets to the
Russians...no he didn't give it to the Russians, he give it to the
Jews in Israel. And his defence was that...he had to commit that crime
for the safety of Israel. And now the Israeli lobby is there trying
desperately to get Pollard out, out of jail. He and his wife has
gotten some severe jail terms. But knowing the system as it works, I
am sure they won't be in jail too long.

RAMI: You have here in USA many other minoritets, many other grupps
[sic], example you have the German minoritet, maybe they are 28% in
the American people?

KOCH: Yes, between 26 and 28%...making it about 60 millions of the
Americans are of German heritage.

RAMI: And in the second position, what...

KOCH: Of course then the English would come, and I think [inaudible]
the English group the Irish are the largest group that has come to the
United States. Then it goes down into Italians and Swedes as well, we
have Minnesota...

RAMI: And the Jewish minorite, how...many percent?

KOCH: The Jews comprise less than 3% of the American population, but I
am sure they wield 90% of the power of the United States.

RAMI: Because not just...90%, in Sweden in mass media often we heard
that Congress, American Congress, which theorically [sic] should
represent all the American people, but this Congress has 100%
dominated...av [sic] the Jewish lobby."

KOCH: Yeah, when we talk about domination, Jewish domination, it
doesn't mean that every member has to be a Jew. You can have 1 Jew and
99 Christians in there, and yet the Congress is Jewish-dominated
because behind every Christian there is 2, 3 Jews watching him, making
sure that he does their work or their wishes. If he does not, the next
election he is thrown...out of office. We know that about Paul Findlay
and several other Congressmen, as a matter of fact Paul Findlay has
written a book and I would like you to have this book so you can
educate yourself on this subject of Jewish power even more than this
rather short interview.

RAMI: But you mean that in example in the Congress, it's not necessary
to be Congressman or Jewish Congressman. They have majority of the
Congressman, they are not Jewish but they are working for the Jewish,
they are dominated of Jewish.

KOCH: Correct.

RAMI: But you have too maybe many millions Christian
fundamentalist...which, well they are Zionist and working for Israel.

KOCH: Yes, unfortunately there is a flaw in the Christian religion.
And that is one has to forgive his enemy. For instance, I think it
says in the Bible somewhere, where if a Christian gets slaps in the
face he should turn the other cheek and then get slapped again. That
is all fine if the enemy of the Christian would have the same
theories. However, the Jews we know it's a tooth for a tooth. And
usually when the Jews have to give one tooth they take two teeth from
their opponent! So looking at the strength of each religion the
Christian religion sure is the weaker one between the Jews and the
Christians. So therefore it is much easier for the Jew  to dominate
the Christians than it is for the Christians to dominate the
Jews...which will never be possible.

RAMI: But...I don't understand. How the American people, if the Jewish
minority...just represents just 3%, how can 97% of the American people
accept to be dominated of the Jewish Mafia?

KOCH: Of course the 97% of fundamental Christians get their opinion
and their knowledge from radio, TV and newspapers. And here we have
the great domination of Jewish power in the news media. And I think we
covered that before when I said that...a great 35% of the papers are
Jewish-controlled or Jewish-owned. One of them is The New York Times,
the other one is The Los Angeles Times, between those two papers we
have...in other words an education which brings about the respect for
the Jews, as it were.

RAMI: Have you any hope that the American people in the future can
making revolt or intifada against this Jewish power, this
Jewish...diktatur [sic] here in USA?

KOCH: There are several publications that are independent from the
Jewish media, that do bring out the Jewish problems that we have in
the United States. And let's call it a problem, because...to my mind
it is a problem. And they do, they do point out to their readers that
the Jews represent a problem here, that they're stealing our finances,
that they corrupt our morals, that they have total influence over the
minds of the American people. And let's hope that eventual it will
grow and grow and grow to the point where maybe there will be a revolt
against them. I remember that Adolf Hitler said in one of his
testament, he said 'if there's ever gonna' be antisemitism in Europe
again, I don't know' but he said 'if there is, it comes from the
United States, it will come from the United States', so the
possibility is there. Things are going downhill economically, and in
our walk through the city of Los Angeles I am sure you have seen the
economic conditions of some of the people that sleep out in the
streets, they have to sleep out in the streets because they don't have
the finances to live in modern apartments like we, the Americans, are
supposed to be paying for the Jews in Israel. You know about the 10
billion $ that Israel asked for to build luxury apartments in Israel,
while the American worker or former worker who is now unemployed lies
out in the street. Now eventually that has to have and bring about
some repercussions.

RAMI: For me was a shock to see the American citizen...who is living
in the street.

KOCH: Yeah, and it isn't just that. These people are so desperate that
anybody that comes by there in nice clothing is considered to have
money in his pocket, and the crime of course is enormous there. You
are not safe to go through the streets of Los Angeles during, after
sundown.

RAMI: Can I ask you, this...I don't know...if they are conscient that
USA gave, gives billion and billion dollars every year for Israel
instead to help the American...poor people?

KOCH: The question about the 10 billion $ came about 3 months ago, 4
months ago and like everything else it takes a long time to sink in
[inaudible] the people. Maybe it takes a year before they really
understand that they have to pay 10 billion $ to the Jews or make a
loan guarantee as it is, it's not supposed to be a gift to Israel. But
we know Israel will be [inaudible] on it and eventually why would the
United States have to guarantee a loan, why couldn't the Israeli state
guarantee that loan? They will forfeit on it and I don't think that
the American person is really all that educated to comprehend. You
have seen yourself, you see it on TV, the quality of the TV shows are
rather childlike, that in other words the, the American intellectual
level has been brought down to the level of a 15-year old...The mass
media is the pivot point where everything turns around.

RAMI: And maybe the people are not concerned that of [inaudible]
concentration of power in the...Jewish lobbies.

KOCH: They read about it, they can read about it. They can  read about
the heavy concentration of power of the Jews and...the money that they
cost the American tax-payer. On the other hand they cannot put it
together with their plight, so in other words they read 'here the Jews
are getting all the money, and here I am...I'm in poverty' but they
cannot connect the two together. For some reason there is a block in
between. We don't know what it is, a psychiatrist would probably be
able to tell you more about that.

RAMI: I will ask you too, because this is a scandal too for me in a
way, that you tell me that 26 or 28% of the American people are from
Germany. But the German minoritet or the German groups are
not...represented or they are not be lobby, and they have not loyalite
[sic] for German, Germany. They are American...citizen, and they...are
even discriminated if, if they try to, to be German or to speak about
the German culture...Did you feel that the German groups...are
discriminated?

KOCH: The average German or...German immigrant that came here 2-300
years ago has totally become an American, so he doesn't really
consider himself as German. The only people that you can class as
German groups are the ones that came here as immigrants as of now,
like I myself. They have, they're not really discriminated as far as
work is concerned, Germans are very well-liked as workers in this
country. They never really advance to any high administrative
positions. And as far as the getting groups together or forming a
lobby, that is totally out of the question because of the Jewish lobby
and is prohibited by law for any German publication in this country to
pick up any political viewpoints. They are not allowed to support any
political party, which is quite allright for the Jewish publications
to do that but German publications, we have in other words no
political publications in the United States that speak the German
language. And therefore...you don't have this let's get together and
form a lobby kind of an attitude.

RAMI: But all world now, but USA foreign policy, specially...about
Middle East, are not decided of American people...but of Israel, of
Jewish lobby. I don't know if the...American people are conscience
that...Israel decided the American foreign policy here, specially in
the Middle East, specially...if you will an example the Golf [sic]
war.

KOCH: A lot of people, when I say a lot it doesn't mean the majority,
but that a lot of people are aware of that America fought for Israel.
That Americans have to die so that the Jew can live in peace. I don't
quite know why the Gulf war really came about. They said it was not
for oil, it was not, in other words the slogan was 'no blood for oil'.
However it was to liberate Kuwait and make it a democratic country
again. If we take as an example today Yugoslavia where the Serbs are
totally destroying the Croatian nation, my question would be why
doesn't America go in and bomb now the Serbians in order to bring
democracy and freedom to the Croatian people?...However, we can see
the double standard. In other words, everything is done to please the
Jewish state of Israel but democracy is not being protected in that
way.

RAMI: But I think it's in the future maybe logically that it will be
conflict between the Israel power...in America, in USA, between Israel
and the American people, because now the USA, the America become more
and more poor...

KOCH: Uhu, you're right.

RAMI: Yes, and...with the new, new world order USA, the Jewish
propaganda cannot use anymore Israel as American base...in the Middle
East. Do you think that now the American people or American opposition
against the Jewish power can have more succes [sic] against the Jewish
lobby?

KOCH: Of course these are foreign policy questions, and it's kind of
difficult to really see to the bottom of that, to get to the bottom of
it. We can only go by what we read in the newspapers and who knows
what's true and what isn't? But we know that in order to form a
anti-Jewish - I don't want to say antisemitic because many of the Arab
peoples are Semites and it would be wrong to call, call the whole
animosity towards or the resistance to the Jews as antisemitism, it is
anti-Jewish -  and even if there are enough people in this country
there has to be some leadership, and I don't see any leadership that
would go ahead and say 'now we have to free ourselves from Jewish
domination'. There is none of that. David Duke is the latest one that
I have seen, but who knows how long he will exist? We know that there
have been a lot of anti-Jewish politicians in this country and they're
all dead [inaudible] or thrown out of office and [inaudible]
effectiveless, without any effect.

RAMI: Can I ask you the Black, Black minorite, how many percent are
they here in?

KOCH: I think the, the last statistics I read was 18%...I believe it's
18%...The Latino population I think has reached now 23%. The
fastest-growing minority if we can call it in this country is the
Asian population. So, as...you have seen, as I lead you through Los
Angeles you have seen the Latino quarters, the Japanese quarters,
the...Black quarters. You have seen them all, and these...populations
are growing rapidly.

RAMI: But this population or this grupps, can they play some role for
to balance, balance this Jewish power or Jewish domination?

KOCH: It's difficult to say. Any nation that's occupied by, by a
foreign power, may it be a national power like the United States
occupying Germany or an ideological power or religious power like the
Jews, there isn't the resistance like in you have in other countries
like where there patriotism. For instance, the Swede will revolt for
Sweden. The German will revolt for Germany and the Russian revolted
for Russia. But in America, is the Mexican...gonna revolt against the
Jews for America or for Mexico? This is such a large melting pot here
in the United States, that everybody is really here for economic
reasons.

RAMI: But if, if all the American people, all the American citizen pay
taxes, not, not only Jewish, but the American budget...

KOCH: Is in trouble.

RAMI: They come from the American people, but, but maybe the Jewish
are...monopolizing the majority of the American budget?

KOCH: Yes, annually, that is per year, the United States pays about 3
billion $ for the military spending in Israel. It's been said that
about 7 billion $ go to Israel every year. I would, I'm inclined to
think that it's even more than 10 billion $ with the, with the
donations and tax-free money that's being sent over to Israel.

RAMI: Now, you have many minoritets here. Who is of this minoritets
victims...who is of the minoritets who are trying to using
the...concentration of the power?

KOCH: The real victim in my opinion is the White working class
American who has to come up with the taxes to pay for all these
programs, the social programs and of course the enormous amount of
money that goes to Israel. Every time a nation is in, in economic
troubles and they look around why are we in an economic bad times,
they find the Jews. And the Jew always complains, he says every time
economic conditions get bad in any country we are the scapegoat. But
what they forget to say is that they did cause these bad conditions.
For instance robbing the savings and loan companies here, like Michael
Milken and, and Ivan Boesky and all the others who have robbed the
American tax-payer of billions of dollars.

RAMI: What the, I can, I have a constatation [sic] that in France, in
Europe, even here, every time the Jewish minoritets are trying always
to use other foreign minoritets against the majoritets in the...

KOCH: Yeah, that's true.

Rami:...in the people. Even if this majoritets are too victims of the
Jewish power.

KOCH: Yes, they are.

RAMI: It's the same in USA here?

KOCH: Yes, yes. All the, the civil rights movement in this country
that began in the sixties started out with giving broader rights to
the Black people which I would agree to. However, in the larger civil
rights context the Jew is included as, because the minorities are
protected in this country and they're called of national...origins,
religious origin or religious beliefs and origin of birth wherever
they came from. But here the Jew makes the biggest use out of it. He
is the one who really handles the...civil rights projects and the
civil rights benefits, more to his benefit than to the Blacks. And the
Blacks have found out about it and perhaps the most outspoken,
antisemitic - if I may use that name at this moment - or anti-Jewish
outbursts are in New York against the Jews of course, where the Negro
population has finally realized that they're being exploited.

RAMI: Of the Jewish power.

KOCH: Of, by the Jewish power, yeah. And which is that, that...all
this money goes to the Jews and Israel, but none to them. They are the
ones they have to fight out. They don't get into high position because
a Jew is already there.

RAMI: Has...this Black movement or Black grupps any leader or a
movement now?

KOCH: From what I have seen a couple of years back Louis Farrakhan was
a very outspoken anti-Jewish Black leader. Unfortunately, it's been
said that Mr. Farrakhan had to go in hiding.

RAMI: Why?

KOCH: They want to kill him. So he did, he made a mistake, he called
the Jewish religion a gutter religion and therefore I think that was
his death warrant, you see. So I, I wouldn't know where he lives...

RAMI: You mean that here in USA even if you have freedom...you are not
free to criticize the Judaism. But...you can criticize Islam...and
Christianity, but not Judaismen [sic]...?

KOCH: You can criticize Judaism in the United States to a certain
extent. I can criticize Judaism to you right here, but I can not go
into government and criticize the Jews.

RAMI: And not in mass media too?

KOCH: Not in the mass media...

RAMI: Just a secret between friends.

KOCH: Yes, yes. The minute when you have a large audience you become a
danger, and you're an antisemite. And unfortunately so many people
that have spoken out against the Jews are either dead or have been
kicked out of office.

RAMI: You mean that...Farrakhan now, he afraid to, to...

KOCH: He can't speak, no, because you see, about 10 or 12 years ago
there was a Muslim leader in Chicago, I forgot his name at this
moment, who was very effective and he got shot right...on the podium
holding a speech. He got shot through the head by a Negro, but we know
that no Jew goes out and does the killing himself if it came from the
Jewish, I assume it is but I really don't know if it was.

RAMI: You mean that he was paid of Zionist Mafia?

KOCH: That...I wouldn't know. I can only assume that, but he is, he
was speaking anti-Jewish and then he was dead. We had a presidential
candidate who was for the White people [inaudible] George Wallace, he
got shot and now he is...paralysed, he is in a wheelchair. We have
Paul Findlay who spoke up against the Jews,  well not so much against
the Jews as against Israel. And he is kicked out of office...You will
find in the book all the people who spoke up against Israel and who
are out of office now.

RAMI: And what now will happen in the next president election of the
President kandidat [sic]?

KOCH: That is difficult to say. We know the American public in
general, the White thinking public, we have seen that in the election
that, where David Duke was running, that 52% of the White people voted
for David Duke. So, but it isn't just the White people. Again we come
back to the tax-payer, and that includes Blacks and browns and what
have you that are working every day. They just had enough...with the
high taxation. Taxes are growing rapidly in the Unites States and I'm
sure over in Europe as well. And [inaudible] be sort of a tax revolt,
in other words people say 'I had enough' and they'll vote for the
candidate that is not of the orthodox democracy as we have known it
for the past 50 years in the United States. So there could be an
upset, but again it all depends on how much the system permits an
outsider to come in. David Duke would be an outsider, Pat Buchanan
would be an outsider and they're all on the extreme right. So...the
next election can hold some surprises, can.

RAMI: Do you believe that...Bush has some conflict with the Jewish
lobby or they just tactic and different role...they playing?

KOCH: I think he has some genuine problems with, with Israel. And not
him so much personally as his advisers, and how far that dispute will
go we don't know. It's being hushed up. Of course Bush is being
attacked by the Zionist lobby as being anti-Nazi [sic]. It went so far
that in one article I read, Bush...will cause the next Holocaust! So,
first of all there never was a Holocaust as you and I probably know,
and I know for sure that there was not a Holocaust but the Jews are
afraid, at least the press is afraid. The Jewish press is afraid if
Bush. Now, how true and how valid that is I don't know. I couldn't...

RAMI: But...between the Democrats and the Republicans, which of them
two parties are more pro-Jewish or maybe [inaudible]  the same?

KOCH: Traditionally it's the Democratic Party and traditionally the
Democratic Party was the party or is the party of the poor, the
unemployed and those who cannot get along in everyday life and of
course  the liberals and all the other institutions that go along with
liberalism. The Republican Party is traditionally the party of the
businessmen, but we see intermingling poors going over to the
Republican Party voting for them, rich going over to the Democratic
Party, so really when it comes down to it doesn't make any difference
who is going to win. The Democrats or the Republicans, because the
system will not change.

RAMI: But now the, the Black people, Black groups, they are become
more and more for Palestine and against Israel, against the Jewish
lobby. And they...are making a big group in Democratic Party. It is
not problem a for Democrat politic or for Democrats position for
Israel?

KOCH: I don't think so. I think the power of the press lies largely
with the Jews and you know, you know, no matter what opinion there may
be in the public today, miraculously it..can be changed almost
overnight with the media. So, it depends on the damage control that
the media sees that they have to repair and see how the public opinion
polls are running, and that's why they have public opinion polls.
About 6 weeks, 8 weeks before the elections they ask everybody 'who
would you vote for and why', and then when they know the answers they
go back into their back-rooms and they lay out the strategy and say
'well, these people down there, they wanna vote this and this way but
we have to fix that' so next day the articles go out, the commentaries
go out and the TV opens up and trying to change these peoples' mind.
And unfortunately it works, so whoever has the power of the press is
really the ruler of the nation.

RAMI: You mean that press is dominated of the Jewish lobby, and the
press...make opinion and the opinion make resultat [sic] of the
election.

KOCH: Yes.

RAMI: And the Congress and President.

KOCH: Yes, yes. And as I said before it is very difficult to find a
politician in...any democratic government who will criticize the Jew,
because immediately he will be branded an antisemite. And
anti-democratic or neo-Nazi or whatever label they have fabricated to
stick on the people and immediately, as soon as they criticize Judaism
or the different Jewish groups or whatever, whatever reason one, a
person has to criticize anybody that's Jewish or in the Jewish
religion.

RAMI: Mm, a big problem. Manfred Koch, thank you very much.


Rami now interviews another of his companions, Pablo Palacios. He says
he immigrated to the USA in 1965 from Argentina and tells Rami how he
was persecuted and threatened by a group called the Jewish Defense
Organization.

/.../

RAMI: You are not working with...anti-Jewish organization?

PALACIOS: Oh no. No, not at all.

RAMI: But why this Jewish organization try to persecute you? Why?

PALACIOS: Because at one time I went to, to a meeting of a, of an
organization that was aware that, that there is too much Jewish
control in this country and they wanted to, to change the situation.

RAMI: You mean...you was a meeting there the Jewish power was
criticizing?

PALACIOS: That's right. That's right.

RAMI: But how they know that you was in this meeting? How the Jewish,
this Jewish organization know that you was in this meeting? You are
not a public person, you are not known.

PALACIOS: Because they have an infiltrator, an informer.

RAMI: You mean they have list, they have name of all person...who was
there?

PALACIOS: Oh yes, of course. Yes...and most of those meetings I came
to the realization afterwards are infiltrated, yes. Yes.

RAMI: And now...

PALACIOS: I wouldn't say all of them but quite a few of them are
infiltrated. Otherwise what happened to me would not have taken place.

/.../

RAMI: Do you mean that the Jewish organizations are using the violence
against the anti-Zionist persons?

PALACIOS: By all means I would, I would say so. Yes. I am living
proof.

RAMI: You...come from Argentina. Is the same in Argentina? The same
situation there?

PALACIOS: I don't know because I haven't been there in a long, long
time. Ever since I came to the United States I never went back, so
I...

RAMI: But when you was there...

PALACIOS: No, when I was there no. Not at all, no. No. In that respect
I...felt safer in Argentina, because I never heard of anything like
that happen there, no. No way.

/.../

After the Palacios interview Rami meets an ex-German, Manfred Latting,
who says he's been active in the American film industry.

RAMI: Manfred Latting, you are welcome to Radio Islam and first I will
thank you for...your hospitality, and we are making this interview in
your camping car. I will ask you first how long time have you been
here in...Of course you are American citizen...

LATTING: I'm an American citizen, yes.

RAMI: But like all the American in USA everybody is coming
from...somewhere. Where are you coming from?

LATTING: I am coming from Germany...In 1964...I came to America, yes.

RAMI: And you have lived all the time in Los Angeles?

LATTING: All the time in Hollywood, yes...

/.../

RAMI: What is your profession, originally?

LATTING: Well, originally I was a film-maker all my life. I did my
first movie when I was 9 years old, and then I worked in my father's
business. My father was an artist, a painter, and with a painting
business. But I worked only 4 years there, then I worked for the
German government, postal office. But I was making movie all the time,
but as an amateur and then in 1964 after I won a couple of awards in
Italy and in South Africa and in Cannes, in Germany...

RAMI: In Morocco? Have you been in Morocco?

LATTING: I, I made a movie in Morocco, yes. But an amateur movie only.

RAMI: In Spain?

LATTING: I did as a matter of fact 17 movies in Spain for ABC, it's
called The Red Patrol.

RAMI: [Inaudible] in your home, and you have many souvenir, many
picture from different [inaudible]...

LATTING: That is right, this is a fragments of my work. Yeah. So,
then...in 1964 I came over, so that was my time in a way. When you get
to a certain age you have to make a decision...As an amateur I did
everything, I got all my awards and so I went to Hollywood and I
started motion picture, the UCLA in Los Angeles. And then I did my
first movie [inaudible] for 20th Century Fox, as an actor as a matter
of fact. Later on I did, most of my pictures, the movies I made, I
made it as technical adviser, as military technical adviser. So, but
then I did also about 80 or 85 motion pictures, movies, as an actor.

RAMI: In what area in Germany are you from?

LATTING: Cologne.

RAMI: /.../ In Cologne the people are Protestant or Catholics?

LATTING: I would say they are Catholics.

RAMI: Catholics.

LATTING: Yes, yes.

RAMI: And, of course when you come here to, to USA, now you are of
course American citizen. I want to ask you, are you...political
active?

LATTING: No, I am not even so sometimes I have help some people doing
something in...direction politic. I had a couple of reasons not to be
actively involved in politic, because of my engagement with the
government in Germany so I had to be very careful there.

RAMI: Even now?

LATTING: Even now, yes.

RAMI: But anyway you are even in USA you are active citizen...

LATTING: Oh yes. Yes, yes. I was invited by the White House so and,
you know, so I was invited to the President and doing my things, ya.

RAMI: I will...ask you here, because in Radio Islam we are speaking
very much about politic.

LATTING: Go ahead, go ahead. I don't know how much I can answer you,
but go ahead.

RAMI: I will just ask you if you have some kommentar [sic], something
to the heart you will telling to Radio Islam's...listeners.

LATTING: Well, I say whatever I can but you have to ask me, you
know...what's the question?

RAMI: OK, OK. I will ask you if as American from Germany, if you feel
that you have the same rights...as all other groups and other
[inaudible] here

LATTING: Yes, yes! In the book you have the same rights. But in
reality sometimes you have problems, even as an American citizen
[inaudible] from where you're coming. You know, you, you have
problems. I experience several situations where I, I was really, I
[inaudible] felt like the book [inaudible] thrown at me as we say
here.

RAMI: I will ask you if you can show us one example or two example for
to illustrate this what you are telling now.

LATTING: You mean discrimination?

RAMI: In your life, yes. In your, in your experiences.

LATTING: Well, especially in the industry, you know. I for example
start very early in the, in the, 1968, 69, I want to become an
assistant director. In order to become a director later on or to
become actor in the industry, you have to go through a specific
schooling here. Even so I had made already 40 movies, got many awards,
I wanted to start from the bottom. I went to the UCLA...the
university, did my things there. I...wanted to become an assistant
director. But you see, the industry is screening the people that they
let into...In what position, as a grip, as a lightman or...anything,
in the industry, motion picture industry, you are...not a danger to
anybody. But in the administration, or even in the...production as a
director, you will be screened. And...they are very careful
when...they have people from Germany. They are very careful. I found
that out when I wanted to become an...assistant director...There
always reason to put me off. They did that for 2 years and I was 32
years old, then I got a letter from the directors' guild that I was
too old to become an assistant director. But I became technical
adviser, and...we created also a different picture in the...motion
picture, war movies. Ya, I had an influence on the writing of the
script. So, I watched that, I watched the scenery, and they let me do
that. At that time, the...war film, on television I must say, were a
different one than the war films that you see on the screen or were
exported to Europe, the European market. And there I had a certain
influence. I got one, we did the [inaudible] for example. [Inaudible]
became very popular, and suddenly the, the German was not that mean
animal anymore. And for this first time we had a, a regular on the
show, which was Hans Gutegaest [?] and he portrayed the positive side
of a German officer. And we had 2 seasons running, for 2 years, and
that, for certain people, for a certain group of people in
the...politic in Washington, they didn't like that. So the show was
cancelled. The show was taken off, as one of the most popular war
movie action show where the, the enemy was, had as much weight or was
as, as fairly or positively portrayed as the friends...And that was of
course in front of a scenery, the scenery was Africa...Run very well,
and suddenly it was off the air. Cancelled. But it was not cancelled
by the public or by the networks, it was cancelled by some people in
Washington which I found out much later. But from that time on the war
movie became a political tool for this group. It started early in
1970, 1971, 72. All those movies that we created were taking off the
screen, maybe run as a rerun but the main program, the pictures became
political. Then we had the Holocaust, it was created for television.
And so on and so on. And all those pictures, and the technical adviser
that I was,  was not asked anymore. Because I was told by some of the
production people, 'we don't need technical historical adviser, we
make history'.  And so, for that it was out, I did a Disney movie
afterwards as a technical adviser, but then, more or less, Hollywood
was dead for me. Then I became, you know, I made my own television
programs for European television, for many years I had my own program.
But as a technical adviser I was not asked anymore. Of course that was
the time when the whole history was, was turned around. I felt right
there a certain resistance from the industry, you know...Of course I
could give you some other examples where I felt later on discriminated
by, you know sometimes when the police got here [inaudible] know where
you're from...some court cases, you know, where I...was really
discriminated against only because I came from Germany.

RAMI: But who and why you are discriminated, who would discriminate
you?

LATTING: For example...

RAMI: You tell me that some people from Washington.

LATTING: Well, I cannot say much about the Washington people, but I
know...it was political. Of political nature because, I had for
example one case against...a company which was [inaudible] but I know
it was Jewish-run. And I got a Jewish judge, I would never have a
chance. So this, this judge, in that particular case broke four
Californian rules just to throw the book at me. It was a very simple
case which became a very, very expensive one later on, you know. And
even so your...lawyers tell you, for example I was for 4 years with
the [inaudible] company another case. They broke a contract and...I
wanted to force them to honour a certain contract, it was a real
estate situation that I did for somebody else. So, the...judge, you
see my lawyers said 'you do not speak one word' because...I have a
German accent of course, and he said 'you don't say one word'. So
they're trying from the right from the beginning to hide my, my being
from Germany in front the court. But then the other throw it in. For
example, they made a compliment in the [inaudible] which had
absolutely nothing to do with the subject. They said for example, 'Mr.
Latting is a nice German', you know, bla bla bla...This had nothing to
do with the case, and they definitely didn't want to say 'a nice
German' but if you could say that 'he is a bad German' then the judge
would have said 'strike that out'...but I was 'a nice German', but at
least the judge knew I was a German, see. Even so I said I'm an
American, I'm an American citizen. But the word was out, the case was
lost. I lost everything. I lost everything. And a lot of money too.

RAMI: You tell me that you must be careful, but when I meet Jewish,
American Jewish, they are not carefully to show their support for
Israel and political activities here, opinions...but what is the
difference? The Jewish are not carefully to show publicly fighting for
Israel, but, and they are, they have...privileges because they are
Jewish. You are discriminated because you are German, and...

LATTING: And that was not before 1970. It starts in the...middle
of...70's, it started in the 70's when all those movies came out.
Those anti-German movies.

RAMI: How 3% of...the American people, I mean Jewish, can discriminate
26 or 28% of the American people, I mean the German...group here.

LATTING: Well, if you see, if you see the radios, if you see the
newspapers, if you see the, the studios, they're Jewish-controlled.
You know, the Zionist control and of course they say what will be on
the screen next year. That probably had an influence, I...wouldn't
put, I wouldn't say that directly but it had also influence what kind
of a picture will get the awards and the attention, definitely. From
what picture will be supported or will be financed, you know. Who is
in it, the actors, what kind of...view on their politics they have.
Then of course the producer, they're all, they're all very, very
carefully screened...As we say, they raise them, they educate them to
their function they later have. And they stay in line later on,
otherwise they're out of the business.

RAMI: If I understand, if the German group are feeling that they are
discriminated and the Black people too have feeling that
discriminating, and the people from Latin America too, maybe it will
be in the future more and more maybe feeling of discrimination in the
USA, and maybe it will be a sorts [sic] intifada against the Jewish
power here?

LATTING: I'm sure that will be, and I said that, I said that before, I
feel it on my own, my own, my self. That will be, it will be happen.
It's, it's, it's boiling kind of, something will happen. Soon, very
soon. You know, and I see that, when you grow, when you grow into that
situation, that's like you see your child growing. But if somebody
didn't see your child in a year or two, they'd see the difference. So
I don't see it that way so directly as people coming from the outside,
for example I, I have friends here which were in the German army and I
have quite a few of them around here because of my, my work as a
technical military adviser to all those war film productions. And I
was very inquisitive about certain things, and I asked them and
we...talked about those things that you just asked about. Then they
said, for example antisemitism, you know, he, he said 'I was an, I was
an officer in, in Auschwitz' for example. That kind of antisemitism,
that is shown openly in the United States, never existed in the Third
Reich. Even so, everything is portrayed it was so terrible at that
time. But he said 'what I'm seeing now in the United States, that I
never went, I never experienced in the Third Reich'.

RAMI: Strange, because the most strongly power in the world, Jewish
power, is, is here in the USA. All USA are, are dominated of the
Jewish power, Jewish lobby...

LATTING: Ah, yes.

RAMI: ...and in the same time the most strongly anti-Jewish,
anti-Jewish...

LATTING: But...that is just the nature. If somebody goes up there so
strong, you have to have the power against it! And the people getting,
the American people I think slowly getting to understand, because
slowly their livelihood is taken away from them! When I come to this
country 27 years ago, the gasoline was 27 cents. And then...there
starts the fighting in the Middle East there, with the Palestinians,
and the oil went up, the [inaudible] went up and people didn't
understand because they still enough money and income, but everything
is now so expensive that people are very unhappy...with the
Government, with the Administration. And so...they're asking
themselves...when we have more information material like this, the
Institute of Historical Review in...Costa Mesa, we send out this
material and people becoming, becoming inquisitive about it. And so
they're starting asking 'why do we have that?' And slowly it's coming
in the open. It's coming in the open, and people are very unhappy
right now.

RAMI: I think this is scandal when I meet you now, you are
intelligent, you have many experiences in the film industry and in the
technique industry, and I think if you was Jewish you will be now, you
will have many, many succes [sic] and many responsibility, many
opportunity but...

LATTING: Ah yes, but, but, but I don't know. That depends also what
kind of an attitude you have. I know a couple of Jewish people in the
industry who are not successful.

RAMI: Why?

LATTING: Because they spoken out! They're just not in line with the,
with the Jewish thinking. I...know quite a few.

RAMI: Mm. You mean that...if you was slave for the Jewish lobby,
Jewish propaganda, you will have succes...

LATTING: I would say, I would say yes, but success depends also on
more than just being a loyal Zionist or whatever, you know. You have
to come up with something too, so not every idiot that is just
swimming...with the river will be success. So, I don't, I couldn't say
that, but certainly I had a better chance than my life now...

RAMI: It's help if you are Zionist...

LATTING: Oh definitely. Absolute, absolute ya. And you have to be a
proven follower...not showing your union card and saying 'I'm this and
this' and on the backside it says 'you can believe you me'. You have
to prove it, and sometimes it takes a couple of years. I have some
example where that happened, you know. So it helps, definitely it
helps. But there are other cases that I felt I was kind of
discriminated against, you know. With one case here I had a fight with
my girlfriend , police came in and beat me up, arrested me. You know,
I was, I was treated like an animal. I didn't even know, at the end I
was, I was kind of glad through that experience because I will write
it in the book. I will write about it in a book, and, but then also
something, it's like a big disappointment.

/.../

RAMI: It's a strange situation when little minorite can discriminate a
majorite or a bigger grupp. Because...it's not just here in USA, even
in Germany the German people are not...rights like as the Jewish. In
Germany! I think this is a strange situation, and when I was in
Germany I feel the same that even Germany are still occupated [sic].

LATTING: Oh absolutely. Yeah, there's no question about it, ya.

RAMI: And when...I say occupated, I mean occupated not militarily,
worse occupation ideologically, politically, financially and even
philosophically. Mass media are totally occupated in Germany.

LATTING: Ya, but that has also developed in the last years. It is not
something that came overnight. So, the...people learn to live with it
and it became a normal, it became a standard later on, ya.

RAMI: Thank you Manfred Latting.


End of transcript


1. Philipp is known to have acted as the right-hand man of former SS
general Otto Ernst Remer.

2. It should be pointed out that Ahmed Rami in no way represents
Swedish Muslims.

3. Philipp refers to a series of seminars held in Stockholm in
solidarity with the Palestinians, organized by the educational
organization of the Social Democratic Party, at which Philipp
apparently was present.


COPYRIGHT NOTE: THIS TRANSCRIPT IS OWNED BY THE SWEDISH COMMITTEE
AGAINST ANTISEMITISM. IT MAY BE USED IN PART OR IN FULL ONLY BY
PERMISSION FROM THE COMMITTEE.

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