The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/o/ostrov.hilary/ostrov.0896


From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Aug  3 07:03:32 PDT 1996
Article: 55081 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:38:42 GMT
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In <4tmfhf$e12@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

[deletia]

>[...]Tertullian
>is sometimes regarded as an intellectual phony, who defended Christianity
>not because he believed it was true but because he thought it was good for
>you to believe it.  

Sounds to me as though this would be a very apt description of those
who mistakenly call themselves "revisionists":  their pseudo-academic
tracts are very phony.  They keep recycling their "arguments," not
because they _believe_ them to be true, but because they think it is
good for their agenda to delude others into thinking there may be some
truth to them.

>I gather that Caecaa is implying that you are a
>dishonest Hoaxter, who defends the pious fraud of the  Holocaust because
>it is impossible to believe, and because you believe it is good for us to
>believe in it.  

Ehrlich, you are moving back to  again.  Why do you
speak of the Holocaust as a "pious fraud" that is "impossible to
believe?"  I suppose you would have us believe that you are simply
engaging in your "freedom to speculate" as to what Caecaa might be
implying.  And that, of course, you do not ascribe to - nor are you
responsible for - this particular turn of phrase.

Hmmm ... sounds almostTertullian to me.  Perhaps you should consider
changing your nym from Ehrlich toTertullich.  It would be somewhat
more honest, don't you think?

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Aug  5 14:04:24 PDT 1996
Article: 64198 of news.admin.net-abuse.misc
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: news.admin.net-abuse.misc
Subject: Re: nswpp@earthlink.net's spams and lies
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 1996 19:53:30 GMT
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In , jamie@voyager.net
(Jamie McCarthy) wrote:

[text deleted for brevity]

>To his credit, he offers to take people's names off his list if they
>don't want his spew, and presumably he follows through on that.  But I
>don't think he deserves any more brownie points than the commercial
>spammers who claim they'll take people off their list who follow some
>simple instructions.  Unsolicited email is unsolicited email.

For the record, "Winston Smith" included no such "offer" in either of
the two unsolicited e-mails I received.

Posted/e-mailed to Mr. McCarthy

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Aug  9 18:47:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56134 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 19:27:58 GMT
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In <320b42ba.1615344@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

[snip]

>	It doesn't really matter what Mr.Keren has to say on the agents
>of mass extermination. The idea is so ridiculous most people I have
>told about it get that 'looking sideways' expression on their face.

I don't suppose it has *ever* occurred to you, Li'l Tommy, that if you
choose to conduct yourself in "real life," as you do here in alt.
revisionism, _anything_ you say about _anything_ would give reasonable
people cause to "get that 'looking sideways' expression on their
face."

>	It is just another part of the Holocaust Achilles heal.

The above is a prime example!  Here's a secret Li'l Tommy:  they are
'looking sideways' primarily to be polite and to avoid letting you
know that they are laughing at you.  Either that or they are totally
disgusted at finding themselves in the presence of a hate-filled,
ignorant, lying bigot such as you have proven yourself to be.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:07 PDT 1996
Article: 56192 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 02:20:34 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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Distribution: world
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References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <3204dfdc.490260@news.pacificnet.net>  <3209e894.477902@news.pacificnet.net>  <320b3e5d.498224@news.pacificnet.net> <4uggos$mvb@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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In <4uggos$mvb@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt
Giwer) wrote:

[snip]

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images

>Server Error

>The server encountered an internal error or misconfiguration and was
>unable to complete
>your request.

>Please contact the server administrator, webmaster@nizkor.org and
>inform them of the
>time the error occurred, and anything you might have done that may
>have caused the
>error.

>	It is interesting that "I" may have caused the error.  

Indeed it is ... and if that was the message you received you must
have caused the error (not to mention fabricating the error message!)

The Nizkor FTP error message reads as follows:



Nizkor FTP Error

You have entered an invalid pathname or filename. Perhaps you typed
the URL yourself and your fingers slipped. The closest
directory I have is camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon. You may go there,
return to the top directory, return to the Nizkor Home Page,
or you may, of course, just retype the URL and try to get it right. 

If you did not type it in yourself, please report this error, the
exact URL, and the page where you just came from, to
jamie@nizkor.org. Thank you. 



                                                  [ Nizkor Home Page ]


The Nizkor Project 
webmaster@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca 
Director: Ken McVay OBC 
HTML: Jamie McCarthy 

August 9, 1996 



And incidentally, the URL works just fine anyway:

http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images



Nizkor FTP Directory: camps/auschwitz/cyanide/zyklon/images

File Name                                                   Size
Date

intro-device-1.gif (ref)                                  20.9K     9
Aug 96
peters-03.jpg (ref)                                        61.0K     1
Jun 96
peters-04.jpg (ref)                                        60.5K     1
Jun 96
peters-58.jpg (ref)                                       147.1K     1
Jun 96



Now, for your next lie Mr. self-confessed liar, what'll it be?  Will
you try a new one, or just recycle one of your old ones?!

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:08 PDT 1996
Article: 56249 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 18:35:43 GMT
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In , mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark
Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <4ue5te$ug@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>(Ehrlich606) wrote:

>[snip]

>> OK, since you put it like that then I am in agreement that we should agree
>> to disagree.  Pressac's explanation is _possible_ but in my opinion not
>> _probable_.

>And _why_ is Pressac's theory, in your opinion, not "_probable_"? 

Good question, Mark!  I really wondered the same thing myself.  At
this point I'm not sure if this is simply a function of Ehrlich
engaging in his "freedom to speculate" or a conclusion he has reached
on the basis of his own lack of expertise in the fields pertaining to
the discussion.  You do remember that he remained unconvinced
following the presentation of chemical evidence because _he_ was not a
chemist.    

An interesting and persuasive argument don't you think?  Tell the
world about your "impressive intellect and knowledge", then expect all
to give credence to your "opinions" when you know nothing about the
subject at hand.  Sure seems to be the Ehrlichian way, doesn't it?!

Then again, it does strike me that perhaps Ehrlich is someone who
absolutely _has_ to have the last word in any discussion (in the many
threads he has left dangling, perhaps he has fooled himself into
thinking he has accomplished this by ignoring the responses!)  Not to
mention the fact that getting water from a stone is probably easier
than getting an acknowledgement from Ehrlich that his assertions and
"arguments" are either unsubstantiated or in error.

Posted/e-mailed

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:08 PDT 1996
Article: 56263 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer Meets His Match
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:56:05 GMT
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In <4ugt4h$1t7@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
wrote:

>>   hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) writes:
>>  In article <4u9gur$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>,
>>  Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>>  	You do nothing but nip at my heals.
>  
>>  That is all a fraud like Mr. Giwer deserves.


>	Does anyone beside me wonder why l'il tommy and Matty poo use the 
>same malaprop?

Could be they are affected by the same malady. Or perhaps they use the
same ghost-writer.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:09 PDT 1996
Article: 56266 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 18:35:03 GMT
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In <3208b0cb.1627482@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

[snip]

>>
>>How do we know?? simple, there was documentary evidence by the Nazis,
>>there is expert testimony from the perpatrators themselves, there are
>>photographs taken by Nazis, there is physical evidence of genocide by
>>the Nazis. In other words moran, it happened, it was corroborated by
>>victims, and perpatrators.
>>You did know that, didn't you?? 

>1. "Expert testimony"

>2. "photographs"

>3. "physical evidence"

>	Okay lets start. You present it. I'll trash it.

Nope, Li'l Tommy, that's not the way it works.  Although would
certainly agree that you do write an awful lot of trash.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:09 PDT 1996
Article: 56271 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: the Zyklon B graph - zb.jpg (1/1)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 05:20:35 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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In <4ugtcu$1qe@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

[snip]

>>
>>All that being said: this is a matter not of crucial
>>importance. Even if the graph was indeed as Rudolph
>>claims it to be, there would be no problems with
>>using it to kill people in the Auschwitz gas chambers.

>Given your prior dismissals to the other posts along these lines (lies,
>irrelevant, contradicted by, etc.), I have to say that I consider the
>guarded concession above as hysterically funny.

No kidding.  Sorry, Ehrlich, I don't see any humour either in
Rudolph's claims or in any matters pertaining to the Auschwitz gas
chambers.  However, if you _insist_ (as you always do once you have
made a pronouncement) that the statement is "hysterically funny," one
can only conclude that there must be considerable truth to the
aphorism that "small things amuse small minds."  

OTOH your request in another thread that one of the chemists to post
some information bordered on amusing.  What good do you suppose this
would do you? You have already informed us that you were "unconvinced"
by such information presented previously because _you_ are not a
chemist.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:10 PDT 1996
Article: 56273 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: "Ash Gets In Your Eyes" - Giwer's New Theme Song
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 18:36:20 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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In <4ufhbb$cm7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

[irrelevant troll reference snipped]

>>
>>On 8 Aug 1996 14:09:03 GMT, anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote:
>>
>>>In <4u9jf5$7ar@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
>>>writes: 
>>>previous discussion on the amount of ash snipped
>>
>>>>>Wow.  No problem to get rid of that ash at all.
>>>>>
>>>  Exactly true, Mr. E:
>>
>>>ASHES
>>>  What became of the ashes of the victims at Auschwitz and
>>>  other extermination camps that cremated the bodies.  Of
>>>  course this is a disrespectful and nasty question, since it
>>>  suggests that there is some deception taking place, but let's
>>>  consider it anyway. 

>This is where your problem begins.  You believe that to ask questions

No, Ehrlich, this is where _your_ problem begins.  You have no
interest in discussion of facts, rather your interest - like that of
all deniers/distorters  - is simply in finding hooks to which you can
append another recycled denier "argument."

[snip ehrlichian pontifications]

>Fact: Around 1989, leading historians of the Holocaust revised downward
>their totals for Auschwitz Birkenau.  Fact:  Around 1990, the Polish
>government reduced the claimed death toll for AB from 4 million to about 1
>million.  Fact:  The source of the 4 million number is clearly USSR-8, the
>Soviet Special Commission on Auschwitz, which based its totals on totally
>arbitrary cremation statistics for the camp.  Fact: This document was
>given judicial notice at Nuremberg.

And, surprise, surprise, here it is:  Yet another recycled denier
"argument".  It has been presented and refuted countless times before.
So many times, in fact, that you can find a web page discussing "The
Auschwitz Gambit: The Four Million Variant":

http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/4-million-1.html

Do tell us again, Ehrlich, about your "impressive intellect and
knowledge."  Then perhaps you will address the discussion you snipped
(i.e. the substance) of Ms. Alpert's post.

Posted/e-mailed

hro


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Aug 10 15:58:22 PDT 1996
Article: 56326 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!news.abs.net!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Shhh! Don't mention it [Technical aspects of the gassings]
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 20:16:28 GMT
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In <320c93ee.2430815@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom
moran aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote:

>>Are you advocating further education on the technical aspects of the
>>Holocaust now? It was more than fifty years ago, you know; what would be
>>the point? I think the general nonspecialist understanding of the fact
>>that Hitler's Nazi regime murdered some 10-12 million people, some 5-6
>>million of whom were Jews targeted for extermination solely on the basis
>>of being Jews, is sufficent. There's a lot of things that the
>>nonspecialist general public doesn't know. I hardly think that stuffing
>>every student's head with all the details of the Nazi plans for mass
>>murder is worth it. It's enough for me that the facts are readily
>>available in any decent library, should some child be temporarily confused
>>by Holocaust deniers. 

>	Whoa. I can sense Graves panting, envision the sweat on his
>forehead. The panic.

Whoa, indeed!  Gee, Li'l Tommy, best you get back to your doctor ASAP
and *demand* that he review your medications.  This hallucinatory
projection is an indication that you have _completely_ lost touch with
reality.  And while you are there, please do mention to the doctor the
problem you are having with your perseverative delusional postings of
lies and hate-filled drivel.  He might be able to refer you to someone
to help you work through your problems.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sat Aug 10 23:36:54 PDT 1996
Article: 56395 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.internetMCI.com!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Creationist/exterminationist similarities
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 23:37:35 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 28
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In <320CD3E3.36B1@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> >Sorry, Matt--you're the creationist here.  You're the one arguing
>> >a fringe position, not even regarded as worthy of debate by experts
>> >in the field.
>> 
>>         So did Wegner.  So what?

>The only problem is that Wegner had evidence.  You got zippo, nada and
>even less.  What cooked Wegner's goose at the time was the mechanism
>he proposed which geologists knew wouldn't work, *not* that continents
>never moved.

>Do try and stick to things you understand.

Not fair, Keith.  Some might think that, by this exhortation,  you are
attempting to silence the witless troll.  After all, if he were to
follow your advice, he would have nothing to say about anything.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:38 PDT 1996
Article: 56478 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor - an enviromental hazard
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 20:16:29 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 73
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4uiqu3$374@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <320c8ba7.311919@news.pacificnet.net>
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In <320c8ba7.311919@news.pacificnet.net>, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran
aka the denier in search of a persona) wrote:

>	Nizkor is a threat to our ecological system. Many of their FTP
>files are posts from alt.revisionism, whether their own post or
>someone else. Nizkor leaves the headers in which takes up about a
>quarter of a page. Include this with their signing format and a whole
>half page is wasted. Printing out Nizkor files often ends up with just
>the Nizkor signature on the last page, all trhis thereby reeking havoc
>on our forestry.

TRANSLATION:  Damn!  The way the Nizkor archives my "offering up of
thoroughly ridiculous questions and responses" proves that everytime I
engage my keyboard I am nothing more than a born loser who only knows
how to spew out hate-filled bigotted lies and drivel.

And besides I still haven't learned how to change the font size of a
page on my web browser - or any other simple techniques people
commonly use when they absolutely *have* to print web page contents
and want to save paper.  It's just not fair!

>	Printing Nizkor files including the alt.revisionism headers and
>Nizkor signature stresses out your printer, demanding more ink and hot
>time.   

TRANSLATION: Duh!  I don't know how to read anything I see on my
rigii's monitor so I  _have_ to print everything out and have someone
read it to me. Why can't Nizkor just "spirit 'n paste" just like me?
And I tend to get over-excited when my printer actually works.  It's
just not fair!

>	It also requires more retrieval time putting more demand on the
>Internet resources.

Of course it does, Li'l Tommy.  ZOG has decreed that this is the way
Nizkor will take control of the net.

>     People who have those rip off servers, like Compu-serve, end up
>having to pay more for the online time needed to wait for the
>alt.revisionism headers and Nizkor signatures.

Actually, if the truth be told, we have hidden codes in the pages so
that these costly irritations only pop up when stupid little twits try
to access our archives.  It doesn't take any extra time for the rest
of the on-line world.  Guess you must be a stupid little twit, eh,
Li'l Tommy?

>	Storing Nizkor files in your computer clobbers your hard drive
>with all the extra atl.revisionism headers and Nizkor signatures.

See above.

>	All this ends up using more electrical resources.

See above.

>	In addition to the Nizkor headers and footers being an ecological
>disaster all the rest of the nonsense threatens our ecological and
>spititual well being. 
>	

Yep.  You got it, Li'l Tommy - we *really* want to destroy _your_
"spititual [sic] well-being."

These "revisionistic" foot-soldiers are amazing, simply amazing.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:39 PDT 1996
Article: 56479 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: "Ash Gets In Your Eyes" - Giwer's New Theme Song
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 20:16:26 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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In <4uicps$jqg@news.iglobal.net>, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:

>On 8/9/96 at 10:18, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote: 

>[snip]
>>
>>Fact: Around 1989, leading historians of the Holocaust revised downward
>>their totals for Auschwitz Birkenau.  Fact:  Around 1990, the Polish
>>government reduced the claimed death toll for AB from 4 million to about 1
>>million.  Fact:  The source of the 4 million number is clearly USSR-8, the
>>Soviet Special Commission on Auschwitz, which based its totals on totally
>>arbitrary cremation statistics for the camp.  Fact: This document was
>>given judicial notice at Nuremberg.
>>
>>It seems obvious to me that the 4 million number was cooked in the first
>>place.  Since the cooking was done by the Soviet Union, the same source,
>>by the way, of a forged ID card for John Demjanjuk, it follows that there
>>has indeed been deception on some matters concerning the Holocaust.

>Hilberg & Reitlinger (to mention two) never accepted the 4 million 
>figure.  Hilberg's figures have been posted several times before.  Need 
>I post them again, or will you "give judicial notice" of them, and 
>agree that your statement was in error?

You want Ehrlich to acknowledge that he has erred?!  Surely you jest,
Gary!  The man does not seem to know how - although we have certainly
seen him cobble many convoluted pontifications and/or self-righteously
indignant protestations, in order to avoid retraction and apology. 

His favourite response, though, is a refrain from the Sounds of
Silence.  He claims to have "impressive intellect and knowledge" -
perhaps he does, but it seems that he keeps it well-hidden from the
readers of this newsgroup.

Posted/e-mailed

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Aug 11 12:13:59 PDT 1996
Article: 56517 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Wir scheissen auf die Freiheit der Judenrepublik
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 23:36:33 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 101
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4uj6l5$3v3@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4uil7o$gbi@epimetheus.algonet.se> <320D09E3.69F4@kaiwan.com>
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In <320D09E3.69F4@kaiwan.com>, Greg Raven  wrote:

>hebe@algonet.se wrote:
>> 
>> This is the text for a SA-song sung by students in Germany 1934:
>> 
>>         "Sharpen the long daggers against the sidewalk
>>          Dig them down in the body of the jew
>>          A tide stream of blood must sipper"
>> 
>> and so on...
>> 
>> I don't know if my english is the best but, I ask all revisionists a
>> question: how do you pinheads dismiss texts like this, when you're
>> denying the Holocaust? The Holocaust happened! It's a matter of
>> record. The only ones who deny it are people with ties to racial-hate
>> groups and antisemitic groups!

>It would only take a few minutes of your time to familiarize yourself
>with the revisionist position on the Holocaust, and then you could
>answer questions such as this for yourself.

Finally a true statement from Mr. Raven!  Indeed it does take only a
few minutes of one's time to ascertain the "position" of those who
mistakenly call themselves "revisionists."  However, it is interesting
to note that Mr. Raven has _ignored_ the question in the post to which
he pretends to respond.  Why _do_ you persist in dismissing such
texts, Mr. Raven?  And why do you obfuscate instead of answering
questions?

>Revisionists do not deny the Holocoaust. Revisionists do not deny that
>many Jews suffered and died during the Second World War.

Indeed legitimate historical revisionists do none of these things.
However, Mr. Raven and others of his ilk invariably engage in lies and
distortions in an attempt to delude others who - through no fault of
their own - may not know any better.  

Unfortunately for Mr. Raven and others of his ilk - and despite their
best pseudo-academic efforts - their transparent agenda betrays the
deceptive myths they attempt to have their readership believe while
they masquerade as voices of reason and seekers of truth.

>Revisionists DO say that there was no German program to exterminate
>Europe's Jews, that numerous claims of mass killings in "gas chambers"
>are false, and that the estimate of six million Jewish wartime dead is
>an irresponsible exaggeration.

Indeed they DO utter such _unsubstantiated_ assertions (freedom of
speech is very much a blessing here - how else would we know how
totally bereft of honesty these apologists really are?!) with
predictable regularity.  They vainly hope that if they repeat
themselves - and recycle their lies and distortions - often enough
sooner or later someone will make the mistake of giving them credence.


>Finally, people from all walks of live, of all religious faiths, and all
>racial backgrounds, agree with the revisionist view of the Holocaust. 

Well, it certainly seems to have worked with the Ehrlichs, Morans,
Giwers, Beaulieus, Barons, Hubers and other assorted riff-raff of this
world.

>If
>you have evidence to show that the revisionist position in wrong, it
>should not be necessary for you to stoop to personal attacks or question
>people's motives to make your point.

To the contrary, Mr. Raven:  are you not aware of the old maxim "He
who asserts must prove."  As you yourself noted at the beginning of
your post, it takes only a few minutes to ascertain the so-called
"revisionist position."   That you have repeatedly failed to
substantiate your claims is evidence in itself of its "wrongness."  

Newcomers to alt.revisionism may wish to point their web browsers to 

http://www.nizkor.org/features/qar/

There you will find everything you always wanted to know (but were
afraid to ask) about the "revisionist position."

Incidentally, if the so-called "revisionist view" had any truth to it,
those who promote it should have no difficulty presenting a coherent
alternative explanation for the overwhelming body of existing evidence
- which includes the Nazis own records and testimonies of both
perpetrators and survivors.  To date, they have failed to do so.

OTOH, it seems that Mr. Raven is so sure of his position that he must
resort to e-mail spamming in order to get some attention.

http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/r/raven.greg/holocaus-list-spam

Posted/e-mailed

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Aug 11 15:52:43 PDT 1996
Article: 56561 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust extermination claims
Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 09:12:45 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 97
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4uk8dc$7f1@atlas.uniserve.com>
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In <320D89B5.A14@kaiwan.com>, Greg Raven  wrote:

>Hilary Ostrov wrote:
>> 
>> In <320D09E3.69F4@kaiwan.com>, Greg Raven  wrote:
>> 

[snip - pls. note Mr. Raven, that unlike you, when I edit a post to
which I am responding, I indicate that I am so doing.  However,  your
failure to do so is consistent with the "scholarship" we have come to
expect from "revisionists"]

>> >Revisionists DO say that there was no German program to exterminate
>> >Europe's Jews, that numerous claims of mass killings in "gas chambers"
>> >are false, and that the estimate of six million Jewish wartime dead is
>> >an irresponsible exaggeration.
>> 
>> Indeed they DO utter such _unsubstantiated_ assertions (freedom of
>> speech is very much a blessing here - how else would we know how
>> totally bereft of honesty these apologists really are?!) with
>> predictable regularity.  They vainly hope that if they repeat
>> themselves - and recycle their lies and distortions - often enough
>> sooner or later someone will make the mistake of giving them credence.

>We keep repeating this because it is true, it is what we believe, and we
>continue to hope that if we say it long enough and often enough, perhaps
>people reading it -- even people such as yourself -- will understand
>that we mean what we say, not what others "interpret" us as saying.

Thank you for your acknowledgement that your postings consist of
repeated _unsubstantiated assertions_.  

I, for one, have never doubted that you "mean what you say" when you
claim that "Hitler was a great man"  and that he was "about the best
thing that could have happened to Germany."

Btw, if you are so concerned about how others "interpret" what you
say, perhaps you should refrain from the denier doublespeak which is
so characteristic of your material.

>> >If
>> >you have evidence to show that the revisionist position in wrong, it
>> >should not be necessary for you to stoop to personal attacks or question
>> >people's motives to make your point.
>> 
>> To the contrary, Mr. Raven:  are you not aware of the old maxim "He
>> who asserts must prove."  As you yourself noted at the beginning of
>> your post, it takes only a few minutes to ascertain the so-called
>> "revisionist position."   That you have repeatedly failed to
>> substantiate your claims is evidence in itself of its "wrongness."

>It is not the revisionists who assert the existence of fantastic
>chemical slaughterhouses, for which there are no plans, no budgets, no
>physical remains, etc. If you believe there is or was such a thing as a
>Nazi gas chamber, all you need do is produce it.

No one else is making such assertions either.  But you are quite
correct:  I cannot produce a Nazi gas chamber. And as you well know,
that does not mean that they did not exist.  No matter how often you
repeat these absurdities, you cannot change the facts, Mr. Raven.

>> Incidentally, if the so-called "revisionist view" had any truth to it,
>> those who promote it should have no difficulty presenting a coherent
>> alternative explanation for the overwhelming body of existing evidence
>> - which includes the Nazis own records and testimonies of both
>> perpetrators and survivors.  To date, they have failed to do so.

>For over 15 years, articles in The Journal of Historical Review have
>done just this, along with other materials that express the revisionist
>position. 

Articles?  You mean those pseudo-academic tracts and anti-Semitic
diatribes you publish from which the IHR financially benefits?  Yes,
they have indeed "done just this" i.e. failed to address the evidence
in a coherent and honest way.  (When _are_ you going to remove some of
those lies from your website, btw?)

>Indeed, what makes the revisionist position so strong is that
>there are alternate explanations for virtually all of the so-called
>evidence presented in support of Holocoasut extermination claims.

Alternate explanations?  You mean the grand conspiracy perpetrated by
the evil joooooos and the propaganda of those nasty allies the US and
the Brits?  

Oh, and btw, Mr. Raven, the evidence supports the _facts_ of the
Holocaust.  The _claims_ that have not been supported are all yours.
But you know that.

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Sun Aug 11 17:24:31 PDT 1996
Article: 56606 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.infi.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!homer.alpha.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.bright.net!chi-news.cic.net!News1.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 18:34:17 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 49
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4ug0in$nj2@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4tr4tq$s4f@d31sg0.Stanford.EDU> <4tsg4s$s27@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4u33uv$4l2@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>
NNTP-Posting-Host: van0319.tvs.net
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <4u33uv$4l2@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU>, rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard
J. Green) wrote:

>In article <4tsg4s$s27@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>Ehrlich606  wrote:

>>>Mr. Ehrlich clearly accused Pressac of fabrication.
>>>
>>>Mr. Van Alstine clearly showed that Pressac was not guilty of
>>>fabrication.
>>>
>>>Regards,
>>>
>>>Rich Green
>>
>>I said *According to Pressac who is making this up as he goes along* which
>>means that he is claiming facts about the time the fans were turned on
>>that are not facts.  There is no factual justification for saying that
>>this happened.  There is only Pressac's opinion.  In this sense, *making
>>it up* refers to the argument, not to whatever
>>documentary/physical/factual elements constitute it.  It is therefore not
>>fabrication in the normal sense of the word, and you know that.

>Actually, I seem to be having some difficulty with reading comprehension
>in the above paragraph.  It sounded like Mr. Ehrlich was saying that
>Pressac was "making it up."   Now it sounds as if he is saying that
>Pressac made a reasoned inference based upon evidence.  He seems to want 
>to make a distinction between fabrication and "making
>it up as he [Pressac] goes along."  It seems to me that this is an
>exercise in a mental activity that is unlikely to conceive progeny.
>If Mr. Ehrlich's claim is now that Pressac made an inference based upon
>"documentary/physical/factual elements," I would say that "making it up as he
>goes along" is a rather immoderate characterization.

Actually, Mr. Green, I rather think we have seen a demonstration of
the cobbler attempting to do some fancy footwork.  Trouble is, he
doesn't seem to want to utilize his "impressive intellect and
knowledge."  As a consequence, his left foot does not seem to know
what his right foot is doing - and he prefers to remain blissfully
ignorant of the fact that his mouth does not seem quite large enough
to accommodate both feet simultaneously.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Aug 12 16:35:57 PDT 1996
Article: 56930 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!info.ucla.edu!unixg.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,soc.culture.jewish
Subject: Re: Adopt a Holocaust Denier Pledge Program
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:57:49 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 19
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4uo2il$sj3@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4u4k7m$vp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>   <320ddaeb.2302261@news.inetport.com> <4ulepm$fmo@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4ulqr8$hff@news1.panix.com> <4uni22$m3i@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:56930 soc.history:7720 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2558 soc.culture.jewish:67766

In <4uni22$m3i@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA>, Laura Finsten
 wrote:

[snip]

>Someone tell the true fatbroad that the keys and deed haven't arrived
>yet, and she should be *very* concerned about that....

 But, but, but ... they're en route, I know they
are.  Not my fault that I had to ship via slow boat. (Sure hope this
one doesn't sink)  Damn budget cuts, you know. 


=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Mon Aug 12 17:09:54 PDT 1996
Article: 56941 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!news.clark.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust extermination claims
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:44:16 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 61
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4unqo9$rsa@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <199608110909.CAA19300@mercury.uniserve.com> <320DF642.3032@kaiwan.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

In <320DF642.3032@kaiwan.com>, Greg Raven  wrote:

>Hilary Ostrov wrote:
>> I, for one, have never doubted that you "mean what you say" when you
>> claim that "Hitler was a great man"  and that he was "about the best
>> thing that could have happened to Germany."

>	   "After visiting these two places [Hitler's mountain home and
>"Eagle's Lair" near
>       Bertesgaden], you can easily understand how that within a few
>years Hitler will emerge
>       from the hatred that surrounds him now as one of the most
>significant figures who ever
>       lived.

>       "He had boundless ambition for his country which rendered him a
>menace to the peace of
>       the world, but he had a mystery about him in the way that he
>lived and in the manner of
>       his death that will live and grow after him. He had in him the
>stuff of which legends are
>       made."

>	   John F. Kennedy

Nice of you to paste this in for us Mr. Raven.  However, perhaps you
would also post the URL from which this quote was taken - and the
Title, Author and Page of the book where this alleged quote may be
verified.

Readers will note from Mr. Stein's post in this thread that Mr. Raven
has been known to take liberties by using selective and dishonest
quoting.  It seems to be a common denier trait.

In the meantime, here's another Hitler quote:

	"Centuries may lapse, but from the ruins of our cities and monuments
will rise anew the hatred for that people to whom we owe all this,
they who are ultimately responsible; international Jewry and its
acolytes!"[1]

[1] Adolf Hitler, "Mein politisches Testament," p. 2. Johannmeier
original in Imperial War Museum, London; photocopy in author's
possession [...]

Cited by Gerald Fleming in _Hitler and the Final Solution_, p. 186
[Paperback Edition]. University of California Press.

Yep. That Hitler sure was one great guy.  One wonders if Mr. Raven and
his friends are doing their best to fastforward the time-frame for
fulfillment of Hitler's testament of April 28/29, 1945.

Posted/e-mailed

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
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From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Aug 13 08:05:15 PDT 1996
Article: 57014 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 17:44:20 GMT
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In <4ul0pl$ehk@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

>In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>>
>>In article <4ue5te$ug@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com
>>(Ehrlich606) wrote:
>>
>>[snip]
>>
>>> OK, since you put it like that then I am in agreement that we should
>agree
>>> to disagree.  Pressac's explanation is _possible_ but in my opinion not
>>> _probable_.
>>
>>And _why_ is Pressac's theory, in your opinion, not "_probable_"? 
>>
>>I'm all ears. 

>The simplest reason why I do not buy the explanation is that there is no
>necessity for it.  [...]

Wow!  Such "impressive intellect and knowledge."  Very convincing
Ehrlich.  There was "no necessity" for the Nazis to murder 12 million
innocent people (of whom approximately 6 million were Jewish) either.
Using your logic, I suppose any explanation of these murders was
"_possible_ but in [your] opinion not _probable_."

Tell us again how you are "trying to undercut deniers", Ehrlich.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Aug 13 08:05:16 PDT 1996
Article: 57030 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!news.bc.net!news.mindlink.net!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: "Ash Gets In Your Eyes" - Giwer's New Theme Song
Date: Mon, 12 Aug 1996 19:57:48 GMT
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In <4unkhi$fsf@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
cobbles and weaves as he plays his version of the 4 million variant
while riding one of his hobby-horses:

[snip]

>Lucy Dawidowicz claimed 2 million, from the context I assume she is
>referring to Jews only. 

>(The War against the Jews / 1933-1945, New York, Holt, 1975, pp. 149-149).

You assume this from the context do you, Ehrlich?  Well let us take a
look at the context:

The immediately preceding paragraph (p. 148) to the "Auschwitz
2,000,000" at the top. of p.149 reads as follows: [ellipses and
emphasis are mine]



THE STATISTICS OF THE DEATH CAMPS ARE ONLY APPROXIMATE.  At Auschwitz,
the largest mass-killing installation, many transports of deportees
went directly from the detraining ramps to the gas chambers and WERE
NEVER STATISCALLY REGISTERED.  On March 16, 1946, Ho"ss made the
following statement ... :  "I personally arranged on orders received
>from  Himmler in May 1941 the gassing of two million persons between
June-July 1941 and the end of 1942, during which time I was commandant
of Auschwitz."  MOST VICTIMS AT THE DEATH CAMPS WERE JEWS, BUT ALSO
GYPSIES AND THOUSANDS OF NON-JEWS - selected for particular reasons -
were gassed.



Sorry, Ehrlich, I may lack your "impressive intellect and knowledge"
but I fail to see from the context the basis of your assumption "that
she is referring to Jews only"

[snip]

>Sorry, the two quotes above at least throw your contention in doubt.  But
>the point here is that the 4 million number is phony, that it was
>demonstrably a Soviet creation (USSR-8 at the IMT), and that according to
>conventionalist sources was deliberately inflated.  OK -- now this is a
>case of deliberate deception that impinges on the Holocaust (_especially_
>if we take the non-Jewish victims into account).  That was my point.

Well, using _your_ reasoning, wrt to "deliberate deception", your
citation of Dawidowicz _strongly_ suggests that we should throw _your_
contentions, assumptions and arguments in doubt.  As you, yourself,
state (and as others have noted of other citations of yours):

>Now since there was one case, and since there were others (Majdanek,
>Katyn, Demjanjuk, etc.) it follows that there could be others.  [...]

Speculate to your heart's content, Ehrlich, but don't expect people to
_trust_ anything you say when you engage in such intellectually
dishonest "scholarship."

Posted/e-mailed

hro

=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Aug 13 11:40:45 PDT 1996
Article: 57097 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news.cais.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Eight Questions Matt Giwer won't answer (Round 6)
Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:48:52 GMT
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In ,
rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>In article ,
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>> (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>> > (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote:

>> > >(Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>> > >>McVay is a lying asshole who abuses the net for his personal reasons
>> > >>of self agrandizement.  

>> > >Libel, little man. Prove or retract.

>> >         Sue, asshole.  

>> I just LOVE it when Mr. Giwer gets serious like this.
>>  
>> It's too bad he can't call Gandhi "fatbroad." Then everything would be 
>> complete.

>> Giwer is gone, folks. It's just the bad taste that remains.

>If he does call me a fatbroad do I get a T-Shirt ?

Possibly!  (especially if you don't demand the keys to the condo,
which is now in the hands of agent Finsteinfen - and I doubt that
she'll ever give it up)  However, you will have to submit your
application (in triplicate), along with all supporting documentation,
to the FBTC (FatBroad T-shirt Commission) c/o ZOGWESCAN (pls. use your
decoder ring to find the address of the day)

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Tue Aug 13 14:18:09 PDT 1996
Article: 57128 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.orst.edu!v_mail.supra.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.usenet.kooks,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Trolls
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:19:23 GMT
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Lines: 63
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In <4uo5ra$23r6@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee)
wrote:

>In message <4ug94k$9bu@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> - kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca
>(Ken McVay OBC) writes:
>:>

[snip]

>:>
>:>Your ZOG T-shirt was mailed to you this afternoon. Thank you
>:>for your contribution. (The Fatbroads thank you.)

>Thanks.  Please intercede for me with the Fatbroads, so I can get a fatbroad
>t-shirt too.  Ostrovfeinvay is being impossible lately, even offering shirts
>to newcomers.

Sheesh!  What colour is your decoder ring-finger this week,
McFeevaysten?  It's obviously affecting your comprehension skills.  I
made NO OFFERS to anyone!  I was simply practising my "creative
ambiguity" skills.  Let me refresh your memory:

Gansteinfen asked:

	If he does call me a fatbroad do I get a T-Shirt ?

I replied:


	Possibly!  (especially if you don't demand the keys to the condo,
which is now in the hands of agent Finsteinfen - and I doubt that
she'll ever give it up)  However, you will have to submit your
application (in triplicate), along with all supporting documentation,
to the FBTC (FatBroad T-shirt Commission) c/o ZOGWESCAN (pls. use your
decoder ring to find the address of the day)


Now where in the above did I make _any_ offer or commitment?  Did I
even say *probably*?  No, I said *possibly*  Now, perhaps in McFeebrew
*possibly* means something completely different.  But in _my_ books,
it means maybe yes, maybe no. (And the  should have been a dead
giveaway - read the manual for gosh sakes.)

I'm in charge of new recruitment next month, McFeevaysten - and I have
to _practice_ my ambiguity skills.  But, if you keep forcing me to
reveal my strategy by your *constant* whining, I'm gonna complain to
the Chief at the next (secret) meeting - and suggest that he cut you
off from your decoder ring interpretation lessons subsidy.

And besides, there are 3 new appointees to the FBTC and they need some
applications to review. (N.B.  I did not say *approve,*  I said
*review*)  So if Gansteinfen sees this and decides not to submit his
application, it will be all your fault.

Posted/e-mailed 

FB-001
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Wed Aug 14 08:50:34 PDT 1996
Article: 57219 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.goodnet.com!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:19:22 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 21
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Message-ID: <4upe4a$3p8@atlas.uniserve.com>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com>   <4tke3r$era@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4tmcnp$60v@access1.digex.net> <4tn81d$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <320135B3.2B0E@unb.ca> <4tuvr7$ga4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3204EF5B.4C89@unb.ca> <32050A0A.63CE@unb.ca> <4u3ce6$197@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ud9pa$513@hil-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> <320A6DF1.5A31@unb.ca> <320A7820.6E07@unb.ca> <4uf16j$2k6@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <320E28F2.71F2@unb.ca>  <320FB57D.6234@unb.ca>
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In <320FB57D.6234@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Mark Van Alstine wrote:
[...]

>> 
>> In the the Troll's universe _nothing_ is the same!

>I'm beginning to think those fossilized bacteria from Mars have more
>intelligence.

What slow learners, you ZOGeasties are!  Us (superior) ZOGWESCAN types
figured that out _thousands_ of troll-posts ago.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Thu Aug 15 07:50:01 PDT 1996
Article: 57420 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Revisionist Breakthrough on "Vergasungskeller" from Arthur Butz
Date: Wed, 14 Aug 1996 05:23:06 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
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In <4urfdh$7jb@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
wrote:

>>   ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:
>>  In article <4uovup$hgf@news.enter.net>, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)
>>  writes:

>>  >>   dvdthomas@aol.com (DvdThomas) writes:
>>  >>  Rich Graves writes:

>>  >>  >Butz doesn't attempt to explain why the only place you find these
>>  >>  >gas shelters is in concentration camps.

>>  >>  What makes you think that?

>>  >	The fact that he makes no mention of them being elsewhere.

>>  My take on this is that Butz is setting off a trial balloon.  Don't be
>>  surprised if supplementary documentary indications in support of his
>>  thesis emerges over the next year or so.  

>	Sure.  Al Baron is putting it together for him.

With some help from Giwer and Moran, of course.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Aug 16 07:51:52 PDT 1996
Article: 57656 of alt.revisionism
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From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: Provide the "records," Mr. Hardy!
Date: Thu, 15 Aug 1996 17:18:37 GMT
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In , mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark
Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article ,
>schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>> In article <4uruk1$ddq@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>> (Matt  Giwer) wrote:
>> 
>> >         You may choose to simply drop out.  
>>  
>> Fervently praying for the day Mr. Giwer makes this choice.

>Actually, Sara, it is inevitable. Eventually the Troll's self-abuse will
>take it's toll and he will be but a (bad) memory.... 

>In the meantime, patience is a virtue. So is a wicked sense of humor.... };-> 

Surely we won't have to wait much longer for his departure.  After
all, the troll has repeatedly assured us that his only purpose in
being here is to hone his skills in preparation for making a
monumental contribution to the campaign rhetoric of the political
candidate of his choice in the impending US election, which should be
heating up any day now.

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/



From hostrov@uniserve.com Fri Aug 16 11:12:12 PDT 1996
Article: 57741 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!usenet
From: hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Guessing, surmising and abusing
Date: Tue, 13 Aug 1996 08:19:25 GMT
Organization: myssiwyg*
Lines: 45
Distribution: world
Message-ID: <4upe4d$3p8@atlas.uniserve.com>
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In <4uo2hi$lpl@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606)
wrote:

[snip]

>[...] there are some who frequently
>make anti-semitic remarks, my guess is just for trolling purposes.  And I
>might add it certainly seems to work.  

Are we to take it then that - in your view - expressions of
anti-Semitic (or other racist) sentiments are quite acceptable because
those who utter such sentiments don't really "believe" what they are
saying but are simply trolling (and that makes it OK)?  Would you put
such "trolling" on a par with, say, Giwer's ... um ... "skepticism?" 

>But then, I further surmise that a
>lot of the folks who are into abusing people for making anti-semitic
>statements are people who come here specifically for that purpose, i.e.,
>fighting hate.

Abusing?  Who is "into abusing people for making anti-semitic
statements," Ehrlich? Please share with us your definition of "abuse"
- and provide us with some specific examples of this "abuse" in
context.  And please do enlighten us as to what would constitute a
more acceptable response (if any) to the comments which precipitated
these alleged "abuses" - in your view, of course.  

Oh, and btw, Ehrlich, do you have some objection to the postings of
those who are "fighting hate?"  

Am I the only one who infers from Ehrlich's "guessing" and "surmising"
that expressions of anti-Semitism/racism are acceptable in this forum
(after all those who do so are only trolling), but that exposure,
refutation and denunciation are not (because those who do so are
"abusing" the trolls)?

Posted/e-mailed

hro
=======================
Hilary Ostrov
e-mail: hostrov@uniserve.com
http://users.uniserve.com/~hostrov/
Co-Webmaster - The Nizkor Project http://www.nizkor.org/




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