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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/graves.rich/graves-on-rimland


From rich@c2.org Sun Feb 18 10:19:04 PST 1996
Article: 24033 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!homer.alpha.net!solaris.cc.vt.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!news1.digital.com!nntp-hub2.barrnet.net!news.Stanford.EDU!not-for-mail
From: rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.skinheads,alt.internet.media-coverage
Subject: Ingrid Rimland/Ernst Zundel's mainstream press contacts
Followup-To: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white
Date: 16 Feb 1996 17:01:27 -0800
Organization: Institute for Ernst Zundel Revisionism, http://www.c2.org/~rich/
Lines: 196
Sender: llurch@Networking.Stanford.EDU
Message-ID: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: networking.stanford.edu
Summary: Followups set.
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:111 alt.revisionism:24033 alt.politics.white-power:19092 alt.politics.nationalism.white:14027 alt.skinheads:12338 alt.internet.media-coverage:14098

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[Ingrid Rimland is the principal online and media contact for Ernst 
Zundel, a leading Neo-Nazi propagandist based in Toronto, Canada. She
appears to have some links, at least an exchange of online mailto: links, 
with Tom Metzger, founder of the California KKK and WAR. See previous 
messages in alt.revisionism and alt.fan.ernst-zundel.]

I think it might be useful to check with these media sources to see if 
they have heard from Ingrid recently, or if they would like an update.
She also has a keynote.html listing some places she has given speeches.
Clearly, she has made herself a public figure.

It might also be good to research the back issues of these publications.

- From http://www.webcom.com/~ina/media.html:
   
                            _INGRID RIMLAND: MEDIA_

                                       
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
   Ingrid Rimland is a consummate media person, with hundreds of features
   coast to coast.
   
_Interviewers comment:_

     * _Fresno Bee: _". . . Ingrid Rimland generates so much energy that
       she practically glows in the dark. . . "
       
       
     * _Seattle Times: _". . . A story of achievement against
       intimidating odds. . . "
       
       
     * _Los Angeles Times: _". . . There is no reader who will not be
       touched by this courageous and powerful woman. . ."
       
       
     * _Long Beach Press-Telegram: _". . . her story is one of pain and
       hardship, despair and ostracism, work and devotion, survival and
       success. . . "
       
       
     * _San Francisco Examiner: _". . . here, you are soon aware, is a
       stubborn, driven survivor who has fought her way through a life as
       dramatic as the answers she suggests. "
       
   
   
   Below is a partial listing of various media sources.
   
_Syndicate Media_

   
       
       An extended feature article describing Ingrid Rimland's odyssey as
       depicted in "The Furies and the Flame" was carried in the
       following:
   
       
     * _Copley News Service_ - Robert Studer, Bureau Chief
   
       
     * _The Verduga Group _- Deb Miller, Feature Writer
       
   
   
   Additionally, numerous broadcasts over many stations featured Ingrid
       Rimland, including:
   
       
     * _Copley Radio Network_ -
   
       
       An interview with Ingrid Rimland was carried by _700 stations in
       the United States, Canada, Australia, South Africa, Hong Kong,
       Guam, Samoa, Thailand and West Germany._
       
       Host: Patrick Glynn
       
     * _Voice of Freedom_ - Host: Ernst Zundel
       
       Repeat _world-wide satellite programs _and numerous radio programs
       
   
   
_Features_

   
       
     * Los Angeles Times
     * San Francisco Chronicle
     * San Francisco Examiner
     * San Diego Union-Tribune
     * Long Beach Telegram
     * Washington Post
     * Seattle Times
     * Lutheran Witness
     * Kansas City Star
     * Sacramento Bee
     * Fresno Bee
     * Modesto Bee
     * Tracy Press
     * Manteca Bulletin
     * Lodi Sentinel
     * Stockton Record
     * Tri-City Journal
     * Hillsboro Argus
     * Clovis Independent
     * Sacramento Union
     * Medford Tribune
     * Chattanooga Times
     * Vancouver Columbian
     * Emphasis
     * The Call
     * The Shepherdess
     * The Missourian
     * Columbia Times
     * Freeman Argus
     * Yankton Observer
     * The Northridger
     * Fort Worth Star-Telegram
     * Arlington Observer
     * Oroville Mercury
     * Chicago Suburban
     * Martinez News Gazette
     * The Independent
     * Wausau Herald
     * Auxiliary Shepherdess
     * Boutique and Villager
     * Rossmoor News
     * LD Journal
     * Links
     * Stockton Magazine
     * Turlock Journal
     * The Mail Tribune
     * ACLD Newsbriefs
     * World Vision
     * The Desert Sun
     * St. Paul Dispatch
     * ACLD Perspective
     * Mennonite Reporter
     * Tiger Tracks
     * Columbia Daily
     * Tribune
     * Daily Leader
     * Tulelake Reporter
     * Lost River Star
     * Del Mar Blade-Citizen
       
   
   
_Miscellaneous Radio and Television_

   
       
       Hundreds of radio and television across the United States and
       Canada too numerous to mention
       
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   Forward to:
     * _Keynotes and Programs_
       
   _Testimonials_
   
   _Foundation Work_
   
  _Back to Home Page_
  
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
  e-mail:irimland@cts.com
  
   
     _________________________________________________________________
   
   
     _________________________________________________________________

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From rich@c2.org Sun Feb 18 10:18:03 PST 1996
Article: 23994 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu!csn!gw1.att.com!fnnews.fnal.gov!unixhub!news.Stanford.EDU!tip-mp6-ncs-11.stanford.edu!user
From: rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.censorship,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,soc.culture.german,comp.org.eff.talk,alt.folklore.urban,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.skinheads
Subject: "Censorship" hoax response from Ingrid Rimland, Zundel's press secretary
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.folklore.urban
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 1996 23:59:20 -0800
Organization: Uncensored Internet, http://www.c2.org/uncensored/
Lines: 301
Distribution: inet
Message-ID: 
References:  <4g14te$g0f@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca>    
NNTP-Posting-Host: tip-mp6-ncs-11.stanford.edu
Summary: Go ahead, Ingrid. Make my day.
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.4
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:23994 alt.censorship:68990 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:102 soc.culture.german:68393 comp.org.eff.talk:60674 alt.folklore.urban:1154 alt.politics.white-power:19051 alt.politics.nationalism.white:14015 alt.skinheads:12324

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[I have alleged in several articles, mostly in alt.fan.ernst-zundel and
alt.revisionism, that the "censorship" of Ernst Zundel's Neo-Nazi
"Revisionism," which I and several friends personally intervened to stop,
and which received broad coverage in the world press, was largely a
calculated hoax orchestrated by Ingrid Rimland, Tom Metzger, and other
racist and Neo-Nazi activists. This is the response she sent to her
"Lebensraum" mailing list. I believe her copyright claim is ludicrous on
its face because this is a derived work -- the bulk of the text is
personal email from me. She is welcome to try to sue me if it pleases
her.]

> Date: Sat, 17 Feb 96 10:39 PST
> From: "E. Zundel" 
> To: irimland@cts.com
> Subject: ZGram - February 17, 1996

"Ingrid" has two accounts on cts.com: ezundel and irimland. The former is
the official email address of Ernst Zundel and "Samisdat Publishing." The
latter has three uses:

1. As a front for her (very few) non-Zundel literary activities. See her
home page, http://www.webcom.com/~ina/, which doesn't even mention Zundel,
even though that's what she spends almost all of her time on.

2. As a platform for spamming. See
<950903105524.60792@ferret.ocunix.on.ca> in news.admin.net-abuse.misc,
dated October 2nd, 1995.

3. As a replacement for the above when she was identified, twice, as an
unrepentant spammer.

4. Apparently, it temporarily hosts the outgoing mail list for her
"Lebensraum" postings. Or maybe the list is Bcc'd.

> Copyright (c) 1996, (Ingrid A. Rimland).  All rights reserved.

BWAHAHAHA! You're copyrighting the public posting of private email you
received from me? Even for a Nazi like you that shows a lot of chutzpah.

> February 17, 1996
> 
> Good morning from the Zundelsite:

Wrong. This is not from the Zundelsite, this is from CTS. Ingrid and
Zundel put their files on webcom.com, rather than cts.com, there they
could have posted pages far more easily and *for free* since they already
had accounts, because it allowed the much smaller and less important web
site to be blocked without blocking the active mailing list.

> A few days ago I mentioned in one of my ZGrams that I thought there would
> be underhanded moves on my personal life and integrity as a professional
> because of my Zundelsite work.
> 
> I did not have to wait long.  I thought some of you might want to see what
> emotional intimidation and blackmail looks like - in print, out in the
> open!

Hmm. When are you going to show us?

> I received the following, all dated yesterday, Feb. 16, yesterday.  They
                                      ^^^^^^^^^           ^^^^^^^^^
Is there an echo in here?

"Yesterday, all my troubles seemed so far away..."

> came from the same person, Rich Graves, who was one of the first who set
> up the Zundel-mirrors at Stanford (for which I was enormously grateful -
> ironic, in retrospect!) and who later took it upon himself to censor the
> Georgia University State mirror of Joe Bunkley, trying to make Bunkley
> believe he was representing Ernst Zundel in a "copyright protection"
> matter.  Rich fabricated that assertion out of absolutely thin air.  More
> about that one - and more - tomorrow!

Yes, isn't it amazing what one can fabricate out of thin air? What a
troll! This goes way beyond our wildest dreams!

In article  dated February 2nd, I wrote, "This
entire endeavor has a BullExon Quotient (BQ) of 0.8."

In ,
dated February 3rd, I wrote, "***IT WAS A JOKE, OK?***"

On Sun, 4 Feb 1996 04:27:24 -0800, in private email message
, I sent
an encheferized message to *both* of Joe Bunkley's accounts making it
quite clear that the "copyright" thing was a joke.

For someone who is supposed to be a professional writer, this Ingrid
character sure has a hard time recognizing satire, even when it is pointed
out to her as such. For someone who claims to be concerned with the truth
[*cough*], ignoring the above messages is strange.

> Rich Graves is also, from what I have been told, the instigator of the
> alt.zundel fan news group or whatever that vile thing is called, and he
> has been floating some pretty outlandish accusations in other news groups 
> also.

As I emailed Ingrid on February 12th, the instigation of
alt.fan.ernst-zundel (somehow she can never bring herself to write the
name) was a troll. The group existed long before I had even heard of Herr
Zundel.

> Now we have this below.
> 
> I am giving it to you in full so you can see how the censorship crowd
> operates.  I am also sending this to you to leave a documented trail, for
> heaven only knows what will come at us next.

Since when did *I* become part of the censorship crowd? BWAHAHAHA!

> The references and insinuations made are taken from my own personal web
> site which has to do with work I did before I met Ernst Zundel, and which
> has nothing to do with Ernst Zundel.
> 
> You may check it for yourself at http://www.webcom.com/~ina.

She's lying, of course. It has everything to do with Ernst Zundel. As many
people have independently confirmed, if you sign up for her "novel"
mailing list, she will subscribe you to the "Zundelgram" mailing list,
which gets messages like these.

> The reference to "Lebensraum" is a huge 1,400 page manuscript I have been
> working on for more than a decade and which is almost completed.    The
> reference to Patsy Ferguson pertains to a lady who once wrote me a nice
> thank-you letter after I had done a program at her Soroptimist Club.  The
> reference to Hilde Spiel pertains to yesterday's thought of the day, which
> was:
> 
> "Malice is like a game of poker or tennis;  you don't play it with anyone
> who is manifestly inferior to you."

I am counting on this. It is a litte disturbing to me, though, that
without even attempting to contact me, Ingrid has chosen to broadcast my
name, addresses, and telephone numbers to hundreds of racists and
Neo-Nazis around the world. I assume she will see to it that noone sees
her spreading my name, addresses, and telephine numbers around as an
opportunity for mischief. That would surely be un-"Aryan," right?

> Here are the missives of Rich Graves:

I haven't checked them byte-by-byte, but I think they're basically
authentic. I think some were PGP-signed, and she removed the PGP header
and footer; caveat correspondor. If you get something claiming to be from
me that isn't PGP-signed, you should definitely think twice before acting
on it.

She has chosen to post personal email selectively, skipping the messages
going back to January 28th that she liked.

> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 10:31:46 -0800
> From: Richard Charles Graves 
> To: ezundel@cts.com, irimland@cts.com
> Subject: Re:  ZGram - February 16, 1996
> 
> Hilde Spiel was a seeker of truth.
> 
> -rich

Clearly, this is blackmail, but against whom?

She never called me, or responded to these or previous email messages.

> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 15:58:15 -0800
> From: Richard Charles Graves 
> To: irimland@cts.com
> Subject: I'll be in San Diego Saturday-Tuesday; can we meet?
> 
> I'd love to clear things up. Your place, mine, or neutral, no press. I
> just want to listen to your side of the story, and I'm sure you could save
> me some time searching through public records and newspaper archives in
> the San Diego and Sacramento areas. It's only just a matter of time,
> really. Why waste it? There's more to life than this.
> 
> Sincerely,
> Rich Graves
> llurch@networking.stanford.edu
> rich@c2.org
> 415-725-7710 work
> 415-493-5090 home

Clearly, this is blackmail, but against whom?

She never called me, or responded to these or previous email messages.

> From: rcgraves@netcom.com
> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:03:25 -0800
> Organization: Institute for Ernst Zundel Revisionism
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: irimland@cts.com
> CC: rcgraves@netcom.com
> Subject: Collectors Edition of Lebensraum to be Released Next Friday
> X-URL: http://www.webcom.com/~ina/novel.html
> 
> I would like to see the outline for your novel to compare it with my
> own notes. Like several other investigative journalists, I have already
> signed up to receive the Zundelgrams (under a different address), but I
> believe it would be better to meet the author in person to develop some
> ideas.
> 
> Please call or email as soon as possible. I can be in San Diego and free
> to meet with you from 6PM Saturday, February 17th, to 5AM Tuesday,
> February 20th. Surely you could reserve some time for me. Otherwise,
> we'll just film the outside of your home, and state that "Ingrid Rimland
> declined to be interviewed for this story," which hardly ever sounds
> good.
> 
> As you can easily verify, I am not a collector, just an independent
> reviewer. You may call me collect if you must.
> 
> Peace be with you.
> --
> Richard Charles Graves
> rcgraves@netcom.com
> 275 Ventura Avenue, Apartment 24
> Palo Alto, California 94306
> 415-493-5090 home
> Alphanumeric pager rich@beep.stanford.edu or 415-428-8055

Clearly, this is blackmail, but against whom?

She never called me, or responded to these or previous email messages.

> From: rcgraves@netcom.com
> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 19:08:00 -0800
> Organization: Institute for Ernst Zundel Revisionism
> MIME-Version: 1.0
> To: irimland@cts.com
> CC: ezundel2@c2.org
> Subject: How to reach Patsy Ferguson, Soroptimists, Elk Grove?
> X-URL: http://www.webcom.com/~ina/testim.html
> 
> I don't suppose you have her address, or a way to reach her? Everyone
> else you have listed as a press contact, testimonial, or reference is
> being contacted, but it's not immediately obvious who Patsy is.
> 
> -rich

Clearly, this is blackmail, but against whom?

She never called me, or responded to these or previous email messages.

> Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 21:41:34 -0800
> From: Richard Charles Graves 
> To: ezundel@mail.webcom.com
> Subject: When shall I have the television crew drop by your house?
> 
> We were thinking Monday around 2PM.
> 
> Please call me to make arrangements for a less public meeting.
> 
> -rich
>  415-493-5090

Clearly, this is blackmail, but against whom?

She never called me, or responded to these or previous email messages.

For the record, at the last moment, I decided not to fly down to San Diego
this weekend, though I did book the flights. I wonder if any of Ingrid's
friends wasted time or money trying to catch me.

> So there you have it.  And here is your thought for the day:
> 
> "No man thoroughly understands a truth until he has contended against it."
> (Ralph Waldo Emerson, 1803-1882)

Very interesting choice of quotes, coming from a professional liar.

Myself, I prefer to contend against lies.

> Ingrid
> 
> ***** Revisionism is the great intellectual adventure at the end of the
> Twentieth Century.
> 
> ***** Revisionismus ist das grosse intellektuelle Abenteuer am Ende des
> Zwanzigsten Jahrhunderts.
> 
> http://www.webcom.com/ezundel/english

[Spit]

- -rich
 Institute for Ernst Zundel Revisionism
 http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/
 "First, bring down Zundel's suffering in terms of numbers and
 events, both real and imagined, to what it really was, not what
 they say it was, what they exploit for their own political,
 financial, and geopolitical purposes."

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From rich@c2.org Wed Feb 21 15:21:05 PST 1996
Article: 24460 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.cyberstore.ca!skypoint.com!umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!munnari.OZ.AU!mel.dit.csiro.au!actcsiro!news.nsw.CSIRO.AU!metro!metro!inferno.mpx.com.au!news.mel.aone.net.au!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!biosci!news.Stanford.EDU!tip-mp20-ncs-10.stanford.edu!user
From: rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship,soc.culture.german,alt.discrimination,can.politics,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: The Great Zundel/Metzger/Rimland Neo-Nazi "Censorship" Hoax
Followup-To: alt.revisionism,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.conspiracy,alt.censorship,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 1996 22:38:21 -0800
Organization: Uncensored Internet, http://www.c2.org/uncensored/
Lines: 101
Message-ID: 
References:  <4g3h33$nlj@pipe10.nyc.pipeline.com>
NNTP-Posting-Host: tip-mp20-ncs-10.stanford.edu
Keywords: Ernst Zundel Ernst Zuendel Censorship Hoax Germany
X-Newsreader: Yet Another NewsWatcher 2.1.4
Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:24460 alt.politics.nationalism.white:14188 alt.conspiracy:32596 alt.censorship:69839 soc.culture.german:68701 alt.discrimination:43274 can.politics:31655 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:138

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

In article <4g3h33$nlj@pipe10.nyc.pipeline.com>, white@nyc.pipeline.com
(James White) wrote:

> On Feb 16, 1996 02:00:26 in article  Neo-Nazi "Censorship" Hoax>, 'rich@c2.org (Rich Graves)' wrote: 
>  
> >-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- 
> > 
> >Nice lady Ingrid Rimland will be shocked, SHOCKED 
> > 
> >to learn that the notorious Tom Metzger, founder of the California KKK, 
> >the White Aryan Resistance, and other racist organizations that advocate 
> >the violent overthrow of the US government, is USING HER NAME IN VAIN on
> 
> >a rather cynical web page of theirs (below). 
>  
> Ms. Rimland would never associate herself and the German cause with an
> American or Canadian racist asshole.

That's not what I heard:

  Date: Fri, 16 Feb 96 23:33:57 -0800
  From: Benny Barzuk 
  To: rich@c2.org
  Subject: (no subject)

  After reading some of your odd comments, I can only say that you see
  things which aren't there, as most jews do. Zundel indeed suggested that
  Metzger be censored and this is info not out of Metzger's mouth but
  straight from the pen of a Toronto man who visits the "bunker"
  from time to time. Zundel earns a living by separating his "golden
  geezers" from their money with his Pat Robertson type scams. Zundel
  regularily visits Metzger, so I wonder where you get your pecular
  information about this "hate" relationship. Nearly all of Zundel's
  followers suffer from Alzheimer's disease. I am not sure about Metzger's
  supporters.

  After leaving the Don Jail, some have claimed that Zundel made a deal
  with the jews. It is also claimed that Metzger has made a deal with the
  faggot Morris Dees. With all of this dealing going on, I am sure
  that there is room for a few doubles.

I think it's time that Ingrid and Zundel make their own feelings plain.
Actually, they already have, and Nizkor, http://www.almanac.bc.ca/, has
them on record. However, it would appear that Ingrid and Zundel have been
saying different things to different people. Do you find this in any way
dishonest?

> If you are not German you don't even
> get up to Ms. Rimland's front door.  She is not a racist at all, she is a
> German Nationalist.  She believes firmly in the absolute superiority of
> the German people and culture.  I would classify her as an anti-semite but
> no more so that any German.  Most Germans are anti-semites.  That comes
> with mothers milk.

I have met many Germans who would disagree quite strongly with that
sentiment. It's not good to characterize entire cultures like that.

> American and Canadian racists are garbage, the dregs of American and
> Canadian society:  misunderstood children, right wing kooks, imbeciles,
> security guards, misfits.  Any German movement would use this rabble to
> accomplish an end but they would never be one of "the few, the chosen, the
> Germans". They could be bullets for the cause and nothing else.   Ms.
> Rimland is very far above that sort of rabble.  She is a very beautiful,
> cultured, intelligent and educated German woman.  To read her in German is
> to gain insight into a very  eloquent mind, equaled by very few. 
>  
> She defends Zundel because he is a German, but Metzer never.  You do a
> great disservice when you associate her with him.  He could never be one
> of us.  At most Metzger would be a tool, after his usefulness has been
> expended then off with his head.  Turn him into the Feds or something. 

I find this all very enlightening, thank you.

I do so wish that Ms. Rimland herself would answer the question.

Ingrid?

Ingrid?

What do you think about Mr. Metzger? Please answer the question.

Ingrid, it's a simple question.

Ms. Rimland? Are you feeling OK?

- -rich
 Institute for Ernst Zundel Revisionism
 http://www.c2.org/~rich/Not_By_Me_Not_My_Views/

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As part of these educational purposes, Nizkor may include on this website materials, such as excerpts from the writings of racists and antisemites. Far from approving these writings, Nizkor condemns them and provides them so that its readers can learn the nature and extent of hate and antisemitic discourse. Nizkor urges the readers of these pages to condemn racist and hate speech in all of its forms and manifestations.