The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/giwer.matt/1996/giwer.0896


From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:48 PDT 1996
Article: 54771 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:26:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:56:21 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:


>>         The regular equate by the holohuggers of gassing equals
>holocaust is an
>> important link to break.  Holocaust does not mean gassing.  Holocaust means so
>> much it means nothing.  
> 
>Once again, Mr. Giwer's fingers are moving faster than his brain.
> 
>I have no idea what the first sentence here means.

	Then those who understand will consider you in need of help of finding the big
red switch.  
 
>Is this Mr. Giwer's new tack? To write such complete nonsense that one
>cannot intelligently refure it?
> 
>Holocaust, BTW, does not mean "so much." it has a very simple definition
>in MY dictionary.
> 
>Perhaps Mr. Giwer ought to try reading one.
> 
>Sara

	But then, there is no one who has considered a fatbroad able to even find it. 

	You are a blond, right?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:49 PDT 1996
Article: 54772 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Talmud baloney WAS Re: Luther and the Jews Part 1
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:53:04 GMT
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:25:20 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On 30 Jul 1996 05:21:36 GMT, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>(Annie Alperts excellent article snipped)

>>Interesting that you should post "Quotations from the talm*d".
>>
>>Our series on you weasely Khazars was so successful (218 POSITIVE 
>>responses. j*ws of course spammed us, but this was a first for us in that 
>>NOT ONE  j*w said the posts contained a LIE) that we are planning a 
>>second series on quotes from the talm*d. What a coincidence!
>Huber, you are up to your old tricks now aren't you, I would think
>that most Jews knew the whole thing was a lie from beginning to end,
>written by the twisted mind of a ranting shaved head, poop.
> 
>>The world will be able to see where your arrogance comes from, how you 
>>have no morals, and what you think of us Asians, Whites and Blacks.

>My understanding is that you characters have no morals, lying,
>stealing and worst of all acting like the world owes you, well buck up
>huby and get a job, and try to act some what akin to a human being.

>I forgot to mention, but your rag sucks.

>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF


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To: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Subject: Re: Re: Holocaust revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.test,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:59:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4skapj$6t4@netnews.upenn.edu>


 <4t7fks$okr@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>
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On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 12:15:18 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>         That is an amazing one.  The railroads dictating to the government the terms
>> under which they would accept payment or not ship.  I can see the Nazis
>> quivering at the threat of a railroad refusal right now.

>Once again you've Giwerized yourself, Matt.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:50 PDT 1996
Article: 54773 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.polish,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.clinton,alt.activism,soc.culture.african.american,alt.2600,alt.atheism,alt.christnet,alt.skinheads,uk.politics,soc.culture.canada,alt.censorship.canada.dumb,za.politics,soc.culture.asian.american,misc.immigration,alt.personals.intercultural,soc.couples.intercultural
Subject: Re: Racists in Georgia
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On 31 Jul 1996 15:35:28 GMT, erics@access2.digex.net (Eric Simon) wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: 	And of course, when Flt 800 went down they were straining to avoid suggesting
>: terrorism and as I post this CNN has not reported any formal terrorist
>: identification as yet.  
>: 
>: 	Yet in Atlanta, the first words out fo their mouths was terrorist.

>Well, duh!  That's because they were not immediately sure it was even a
>bomb with Flt 800.  But they _were_ sure it was a bomb in Atlanta.

	A bomb does not a terrorist make.  

	As most US airline bombings have been for insurance claims it is a strange
pervision to call that terrorism. 

	But then there are many who will form opinions upon media hype rather than
fact.  All who do so are fools and being used.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:51 PDT 1996
Article: 54775 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: can.politics,alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.discrimination,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Les the Genius
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:10:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:08:39 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 23:22:12 GMT, DHawk666xx@pop.gnn.com (dannie
>hawkins) wrote:

>>On Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:58:43 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:
>>
>>
>>>First of all, Mr. Anon, I am NOT your baby.
>>
>>Mere assertions... Prove it... cite sources... medical science etc.

>You really are as stupid as you write aren't you danny Hawkins, you
>really need to comprehend what has been written.


>Trash sig deleted.
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:52 PDT 1996
Article: 54776 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 09:25:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 158
Message-ID: <4tpt7p$hec@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References:     <31ff993f.6043342@news>
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 17:44:46 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 13:59:46 +0100, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg)
>wrote:

>>                  
>>
>>       This is a translation of a letter by me to the editor of the 
>>       moderate leftwinged Danish newspaper, Information printed on 9/9-94.  
>>       
>>                    The Importance of the Jewish Tale of Woe
>>
>>         It is very difficult for me to understand, why exactly it is the
>>       fate of Jews during WW2 that cannot be questioned, when you can do
>>       so about all other historical events.

>Mr. Kreiberg it isn't that you or Bradley Smith, Or Willis Carto, or
>Greg Raven, or the many others big and small that wish to "question"
>as you put it but they like you wish to tell everyone within ear shot
>that the Holocaust didn't happen, that Jews didn't have it so bad in
>WWII, and that the Nazi's were just not all that bad.

>>
>>         In the USA there has been built a special holocaust museum in
>>       spite of the fact that the American Jews have never suffered any
>>       particular harm and have always been among the most well educated
>>       and affluent. One could ask oneself whether it had been more
>>       appropriate if there were built a museum for the fate of the Red
>>       Indians or the Negro slavery. Why has the sufferings of Jews an
>>       exceptional position in proportion to other ethnic groups?

>Mr. Kreiberg, while not having lived or visited America, I can only
>assume that you are unaware of the many Museums that show not only the
>enslavement of African-Americans, but also the achievements of
>African-Americans, and American Indians, and a great many different
>museums, you really should spend more time investigating rather then
>just speaking about what you know "NOTHING ABOUT."
>>
>>         Abraham H. Foxman, National Director of the Jewish organisation
>>       Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith (New York) in ADL On the
>>       Frontline, January 1994 p. 2 , gives the following answer to this
>>       question:
>>
>>         "The Holocaust is something different. It is a singular event.
>>       It is not simply one example of genocide but a near successful
>>       attempt on the life of God's chosen children and thus, on God
>>       Himself. It is an event that is the antithesis of Creation as
>>       recorded in the Bible; and like it's direct opposite, which is
>>       relived weekly with the Sabbath and yearly with Torah, it must be
>>       remembered from generation to generation"
>>
>>         So it is, because the Jews according to religious scriptures
>>       regard themselves as God's chosen people that the sufferings of
>>       the Jews are regarded as more important than that of other
>>       peoples.
>So it is Mr. Kreiberg that G*D decided, not Jews, you really have that
>some what backward, and you should spend some time reading the Bible,
>I mean if you are going to comment on it, then know what it says.

>>         Just as the ecclesiastical inquisition a couple centuries ago
>>       persecuted people with dissident religious views, are people, who
>>       today refuse to submit to the holocaust-cult countries such as
>>       Germany and France - believe or not - sentenced to prison.
>Jews weren't dissident religionists they were Jews, people who
>wouldn't accept Jesus as their Messiah, you should read what Martin
>Luther had to say about Jews, really Mr. Kreiberg, Jews were picked
>upon simply because they were Jews.
>>
>>         I therefore do not think that Denmark in any way should assist
>>       Germany in it's bizarre witch-hunt on the so-called holocaust 
>>       deniers.
>Denmark can and should do what is best for Denmark, but remember that
>a country is judeged by the filth and intolerant that it provides
>refuge for, and I think that Denmark would rather not want to be
>associated with Nazis, because they are odeous.
>>
>>       [ Since this letter was been printed in 1994 the European Union has 
>>       tried to dictate the other membership countries to introduce the same 
>>       kind of bizarre legislation.]

>I hope they are successful. Nazis Raus...
>>--
>>Ole Kreiberg 
>>
>>http://login.dknet.dk/~olk (Danish)

>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 



========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 



========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:53 PDT 1996
Article: 54777 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.conspiracy,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Racists in Georgia
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 09:20:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
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On 31 Jul 1996 19:32:31 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
wrote:

>Followups set to alt.conspiracy.

>Dan Bennett (rdbennet@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: In <4tn4li$4dl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt 
>: Giwer) writes: 
>: 
>: >In fact what the media and all the rest are awaiting, anxiously hoping
>: >for, is one excuse to excite enough outrage to restrict liberties even
>: >further.
>: 
>: Bingo.  

>You think the media are in on this plot to restrict liberties?  Why?

	It is not a plot.  They are liberals.  81% voted for Clinton.  They are not
capble of analytic thought.  They are journalism majors.  

	They believe in strong government if and only if is the kind of governmnet
they want.  In that regard they are no different from conservatives.  

	We have a Constitution.  We have pre-existing rights and powers specifically
exempted from federal government authority.  

	We are Americans.  We are not Canadians.  We are not Europeans.  

	The only question is whether or not one kills or submits to so many of the
improper laws.  There is no question that the US government was never granted
the power to infringe rights on the grounds of safety.  

	And on more practical grounds, the Brits infringed general rights at the time
of the US revolution and thus provoked more problems.  

	As I have many times said, any revolution will be started by the government,
not by any militia.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:54 PDT 1996
Article: 54779 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Vyshinsky runs his mouth off by himself
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 09:36:12 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 42
Message-ID: <4tpts1$6nm@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 17:50:50 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 22:41:59 UTC, an572010@anon.penet.fi (The
>honourable Vyshinsky) wrote:

>there is nothing honourable about Vyshinsky when a character posts
>using a title such as he has, but never fear on Vyshinsky can run off
>at the mouth, or keyboard, or what every.
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:54 PDT 1996
Article: 54787 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 23:38:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 20
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On Mon, 29 Jul 1996 14:43:51 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>	Imagine, with these hot underground flues running below the
>floors of the crematoria, it must have been some pretty hot walking.

>Ooch - ouch. 

>	What the Holocasut story needs now is one of those 'deus ex
>machina' testimonies relating how those in the facilities wore special
>high lift insulated shoes.

	And of course, those "well designed" gas chambers were missing a great source
of heat free heat (for the cost of a thermostat, a little ductwork and a fan)
to keep them warm all year round and make it better for HCN.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:56 PDT 1996
Article: 54793 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:40:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 13:42:31 GMT, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>On Mon, 29 Jul 1996 14:30:23 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>>>chrisl@minn.net (Chris Lyman) wrote:

>>>>[--Holocaust revisionist crap deleted--]
>>>>
>>>>Leuchter's assertions have been thoroughly and repeatedly refuted
>>>>and debunked.  I have friends who lost family members to the
>>>>Holocaust.

>>>	I'd be interested in seeing the details and documentation of your
>>>friends loses. Did you see any? Did you ask for any? If you don't come
>>>back with the answers, will it mean you didn't ask or didn't get any
>>>of the details and documentation?

>>	Since UFOs were recently reintroduced into the disucssion, it is rather better
>>to ask for specifics.  Are these people really friends or are they friends of
>>friends?  Is there a claim that they died during the time frame of WW II or
>>that they were in fact gassed?  

>>	The regular equate by the holohuggers of gassing equals holocaust is an
>>important link to break.  Holocaust does not mean gassing.  Holocaust means so
>>much it means nothing.  

>Matt, what you are engaging in right now is harrassment.  Going into a
>Jewish newsgroup and denying the holocaust is tantamount to walking
>into a synagogue and doing the same thing.

	You appear to be trying to cover your own ass.

	Thank you lucky stars my father was released from the hospital yesterday.  And
he went in after your call.  

	There was a lot of luck in that one.  

	Before I forget, he had the first ulcer in his life.  

	Should I think highly of you?  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:57 PDT 1996
Article: 54795 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: As an example of the holohuggers' harrassment ...
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:42:45 GMT
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Subject: Re: Re: Holocaust revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.test,talk.politics.mideast
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:59:45 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 47
Message-ID: <4tn7bg$9qf@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4skapj$6t4@netnews.upenn.edu>


 <4t7fks$okr@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>
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<4tk3tj$uli@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4tkdoj$ife@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
<31FE3516.3C2C@gryn.org>
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On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 12:15:18 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>         That is an amazing one.  The railroads dictating to the government the terms
>> under which they would accept payment or not ship.  I can see the Nazis
>> quivering at the threat of a railroad refusal right now.

>Once again you've Giwerized yourself, Matt.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:58 PDT 1996
Article: 54796 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:44:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 13:42:31 GMT, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>On Mon, 29 Jul 1996 14:30:23 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>>>chrisl@minn.net (Chris Lyman) wrote:

>>>>[--Holocaust revisionist crap deleted--]
>>>>
>>>>Leuchter's assertions have been thoroughly and repeatedly refuted
>>>>and debunked.  I have friends who lost family members to the
>>>>Holocaust.

>>>	I'd be interested in seeing the details and documentation of your
>>>friends loses. Did you see any? Did you ask for any? If you don't come
>>>back with the answers, will it mean you didn't ask or didn't get any
>>>of the details and documentation?

>>	Since UFOs were recently reintroduced into the disucssion, it is rather better
>>to ask for specifics.  Are these people really friends or are they friends of
>>friends?  Is there a claim that they died during the time frame of WW II or
>>that they were in fact gassed?  

>>	The regular equate by the holohuggers of gassing equals holocaust is an
>>important link to break.  Holocaust does not mean gassing.  Holocaust means so
>>much it means nothing.  

>Matt, what you are engaging in right now is harrassment.  Going into a
>Jewish newsgroup and denying the holocaust is tantamount to walking
>into a synagogue and doing the same thing.

>Andrew

>-------------------------------------
>"Hehvu z'hirin barashut..."
>"Be wary of the authorities..."
>                Rabban Gamliel
>                Pirkei Avot 2:3

	So stop adding those newsgroups.  I do not add any newsgroups.  Why are you
doing it?  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:59 PDT 1996
Article: 54797 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 07:09:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 29
Message-ID: <4tpl92$dc4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
References: 
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On 30 Jul 96 22:27:34, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Holocaust revisionism] [Sun 28 Jul 96 04:42][Tue 30 Jul 96 17:44][0]*>

> >> The wiremesh columns were a very simple, very cheap thing
> >> to build.

> mnc>     It appears you are not knowledgeable enough to deal with the
> mnc> sulphuric acid claim.  I warned the wrong person it seems.

>If you have a better answer, give it in full - so it can be properly
>shredded, demolished and nuked.

>Otherwise admit that you know nothing of the subject and are trying
>to troll again.

>BTW - I have all that evidence that you kept demanding. If you don't
>want it delivered after all, please let me know.

	Tell me your manner of delivery and I will let you know.  

	Although, since you claim to have it, and now appear to speak for Nizkor these
days, Why not send it to them so they can make it available to the world?  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:10:59 PDT 1996
Article: 54803 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.polish,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.clinton,alt.activism,soc.culture.african.american,alt.2600,alt.atheism,alt.christnet,alt.skinheads,uk.politics,soc.culture.canada,alt.censorship.canada.dumb,za.politics,soc.culture.asian.american,misc.immigration,alt.personals.intercultural,soc.couples.intercultural
Subject: Re: Racists in Georgia
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 09:01:40 GMT
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 13:48:13 GMT, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>On Mon, 29 Jul 1996 10:24:51 -0700, Geoff Cooper 
>>wrote:

>>>Rev wrote:

>>>> 
>>>>     I thought the OJ trial proved that a person's race can not be
>>>> determined over the telephone?....They had to back off on their Black
>>>> Church Fire accusations, because they had egg on their faces after the
>>>> arrests of Blacks.....Now they try to smear White Southerners....How
>>>> pitiful these sons of Satan are; but so predictable.

>>>The FBI allegedly reported that the person making the phone call sounded 
>>>like a white Southerner, not that it was a white Southerner.  But this 
>>>is as good an excuse as any, I suppose, for you to spread your racist 
>>>lies.  We all know that white Southerners are all a bunch of little 
>>>angels who would never hurt anyone.  You must be a son of Satan to 
>>>spread such bullshit.  Have you sniffed the Devil's farts lately, 
>>>scumbag?

>>	One would think that sometime you folks would listen to the news.

>You folks...is that us JOOS?

	It is you holohuggers.  It is in particular people like you who who pretend to
be someone else "to see what my father knows about the matter."  

	If there is a 10th ring of hell, I expect to meet you there, holohugger.   




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 06:39:22 PDT 1996
Article: 33548 of alt.skinheads
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news.kth.se!newsfeed.sunet.se!news01.sunet.se!sunic!02-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!01-newsfeed.univie.ac.at!Austria.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 07:23:04 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:46:07 -0800, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K.
Gandhi) wrote:

>In article <4tnbcq$e0o@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>> On 30 Jul 1996 18:32:51 GMT, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:
>> 
>> >In article <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>> >Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines:
>> 
>> >       Not to mention that anything of mine posted without my
>> >       permission is a violation of my automatic copyright on
>> >       what I create.  
>> 
>> >I have never heard of this legal concept of "automatic copyright"
>> >anywhere.  So far as I know one must include a copyright statement
>> >at the beginning of any published piece of writing for it to be
>> >copyrighted.  Anything published without the copyright declaration is
>> >in the public domain and may be used by anyone without obtaining any
>> >permissions.
>> 
>> >This would not be the first time that Mr. Giwer has introduced a
>> >bogus legal concept to cover some bogus assertion.
>> 
>>         Nice claim but your position has been false for 19 years.  
>>         Any honest attorney will tell you that.  


>As has been pointed out there may be an implied and legally enforceable
>copyright. In your instance, however there are a number of factors which
>would tend to mitigate your claim. The first is the very working of the
>Usenet on which miltiple copies of your posts are distributed over various
>servers. By using Usenet an argument can be made that you have by posting
>wavied your copyright.

	Is this your legal advice, couselor?  

>Secondly there is the fact that Nizkor does not distribute your garbage -
>they archive it without remuneration.

	Without permission, counselor.  In which state are you licensed to practice?  

>Thirdly, people who repost your crap to the Usenet are doing so in the
>context of a reply to you, and so are likely protected under the fair use
>provisions inherent in copyright law.

	Said context being removed by Nizkor.  Are you really practicing law?  

>Fourthly there exists DejaNews, Alta Vista, and other archiving mechanisms
>on the Internet, of which you are aware, and you allow them to archive and
>distribute your junk without any special agreement.

	That is up to their lawyers.  

	Ask after the lawyers at CI$.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:40 PDT 1996
Article: 54821 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!pendragon!bcm.tmc.edu!newshost.convex.com!news.onramp.net!zdc!news4.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.polish,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.clinton,alt.activism,soc.culture.african.american,alt.2600,alt.atheism,alt.christnet,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Turner Diaries Now Out From Barricade Books
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 06:33:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 31 Jul 1996 14:05:35 GMT, tlofton@unlinfo.unl.edu (Todd Lofton) wrote:

>Andrew Mathis (fresh@panix.com) wrote:
>[snip]
>: Do you deny, Matt, that the Trochmann brothers, who run the militia of
>: Montana, have Aryan Nations ties?

>I'm not Matt, but I'm not aware of any actions having been taken by the 
>Militia of Montana that are racist.  Do you, Andrew, have any evidence
>of such?  If not, then shouldn't the fact there are racist Democrats, 
>Republicans, caucasians, blacks, etc. nullify your "argument?"

	I am Matt and the last time I heard of the law in this country anyone can say
damn near anything they want including calling for the violent overthrow of
the government and it was protected by the 1st Amendment.  (I am certain our
friend from Pennsylvania will have a unique slant upon a nearly 30 year old
decision.)  

	Beyond that, I am not aware of any racist militias.  That is why they bother
the government so much.  There is no way to use the race card to divide them.
That has worked so well for so many decades that the government does nto have
a fall back approach.  

	Beyond that, there have been inquiries into the Trochmanns and in fact they
have received prominent coverage in documentaries.  Their primary "evil
weapon" is a fax machine.  They invited the cameras into their "underground
armory" and the walls were lined with homemade canned goods.  Not a gun in
sight.  

	Lucky for them it did not have three little chimneys or Dees would have gone
ballistic.  

	But of course the whackos in this country know the militias are evil and they
are salivating at the first serious mis-step by any one of them so as to
broadbrush all of them as evil.  
	
	And in the process to repeal more of the Bill of Rights.  But what the hell,
it will be in a good cause.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:41 PDT 1996
Article: 54835 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!newsfeeder.sdsu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!cs.utexas.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Re: Luther and the Jews Pt 3
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:19:42 GMT
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:17:48 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Sat, 27 Jul 1996 19:18:26 -0700, bud  wrote:

>>
>>		HOLOCAUST PROPAGANDA
>(slander deleted)
>>	Douglas Reed in his book FAR AND WIDE gives us the following 
>>information: "Thus the WORLD ALMANAC for 1947 (two years after the war's 
>>end) printed such Jewish supplied 'estimates', which gave the world's 
>>population of Jews in 1939, when the war began, at 15,688,259...

>What a crock,why not mention that the World Almanac for 1947 had a
>caveat about those counts, bet you don't want to talk about that.
>>	"In 1948 the New Your Times (a Jewish owned newspaper) published 
>>what was offered as authoritative, statistical article, which stated that 
>>the figure of Jewish world population for the year 1948 was between 
>>15,700,000 and 18,600,000" (p. 310 & 312).
>Here we go again with Hanson Baldwins article, and the retraction that
>appeared several days later in the New York times, you really should
>try harder, or is it Lie Harder??

>(To much Jew hating crapola, had to snip)
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 



========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:42 PDT 1996
Article: 54836 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sara and her brain power
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:16:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4tpp79$f07@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:10:42 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On 26 Jul 1996 23:12:08 GMT, kesha2@ix.netcom.com(Janet) wrote:

>>(This is the question I posed to Sara and This is what I got back. 
>>
>>If jews, as we both agree, live all over the world, then why
>>is it that they're always in such Danger of being exterminated?)
>>
>>Janet

>I am surprised that you didn't answer your question, as I am sure that
>you are wanting to do, and more to the question, why would you pose
>such a question??
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:43 PDT 1996
Article: 54838 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!apollo.isisnet.com!eru.mt.luth.se!news.kth.se!nntp.uio.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Re: finally...!
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 09:36:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:30:26 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:45:32 -0700, bud  wrote:


>>If you don't know who "invented" this "misnomer" how do you know 
>>he/she/it/they were/are "Jew-hater's?"  Get real and drop the persecution 
>>complex everytime somebody tells some truth in relation to you or your 
>>selction religion.  Christians have to deal with it all the time.
>The Term "AntiSemite was coined by Wilhelm Marr, and if you had read
>anything about him you would have known that, but you didn't
>dudrite, what a maroon.

>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:44 PDT 1996
Article: 54839 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!winternet.com!mr.net!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!zdc!news4.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 07:03:33 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 31 Jul 1996 12:09:33 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
wrote:

>In article <4tn84t$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 09:56:15 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>>>GIWERISM ALERT!!
>>
>>>Sorry Matt - you blew it again and coverups or zig zags are not allowed.
>>
>>>The gas chambers were heated by the equivalent of a few hundred
>>>incandescent light bulbs - known as human beings.
>>
>>As an engineer you know better than that regarding the introduction of Polish
>>winter air.  

>    Please describe how this air was introduced into the underground
>chamber, when, in what amount, and at what step during the process.
>Supply documentation.

>    The unsupported assertion of an admitted liar like yourself
>contributes nothing to the discussion. 


	Alec is leaving you hanging again.  You are usefull to him.  Keep it up.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:44 PDT 1996
Article: 54847 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: "I will ... this weekend."
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 05:01:39 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 23 Jul 1996 14:56:05 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: On 22 Jul 1996 15:05:22 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
>: >Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>: >: On Sun, 21 Jul 1996 13:29:24 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>: >: 
>: >: >	Now here is Mr."McFee" with something else. 
>: >: 
>: >: 	There us no one inside McFly.  
>: 
>: >Make it stop.  Please.
>: 
>: 	Tell it to McFly.  

>I don't know anyone named McFly, but if he can stop you and Tommy 
>from gibbering inanely on my monitor, I will search for him with
>great dilligence.  Really, Matt--if people want to read the kind
>of trash you've been posting of late, they can delve into the 
>K12 hierarchy.  You've dropped to Moran's level, and you continue
>to plummet.  I realize Alec's arrival has been tough on you, but
>do try to keep your end up just a bit, huh?

	If people do not want to read what I have been posting they can drop off this
conference for the discussion of revisionism.  

	And it continues to amaze me that you actually think your rather amateurish
approach would have any effect upon me.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:45 PDT 1996
Article: 54848 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Genocide
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 02:30:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 26
Message-ID: <4t41uj$p45@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
References: <1e1_9607231026@tor250.org>
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On 23 Jul 96 10:03:26, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Genocide] [Mon 22 Jul 96 20:11][Tue 23 Jul 96 02:04][0]*>

> mnc>     However, in smoking out the believers they have to face they
> mnc> are part of a genocidal religion.  It takes a bit of the sting
> mnc> out of their studied outrage over what they imagine happened
> mnc> during WW II.

>Since you have never proven this or provided the smallest shred of
>legitimate evidence, you're simply spouting hot air.

	That is why believers are so useful.  I do not have to prove anything to them.
They bring the baggage to the table with them.  

> mnc>     That is why they are leaving you out in the cold on this
> mnc> one.

>As always, you are very wrong.

>But you knew that.

	There are several believers here.  Can you identify them yet?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:46 PDT 1996
Article: 54860 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 07:15:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4tpll0$t65@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>
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On 28 Jul 96 11:23:14, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[auschwitz:myths and facts] [Sat 27 Jul 96 06:20][Sun 28 Jul 96 01:45][0]*>


> >> Yes, it was.  "Schaedlingsbekaempfung."  What do you think
> >> that means?

> mnc>     Since you are playing the same old translation game, I have
> mnc> no interest.

>Do you really like losing all of your arguments, Matt?

	It is not a matter of losing or winning.  It is a matter of the eye of the
beholder.  

	We have two polarized camps on this NG.  

	It is all being stated for the lurkers.  

	And of course committed lurkers are not the intended audience.  

	You folks constantly make the mistake of posting for the committed lurker.  

	That is a total waste of time.  The objective is to be reasonable.  Present a
case simply and without "you're losing it" being the only response as that
only appeals to the committed lurker.  








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:47 PDT 1996
Article: 54863 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Luther and the Jews Pt 3
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:19:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 88
Message-ID: <4tppc3$53q@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:20:23 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On 30 Jul 1996 10:11:17 GMT, rev1915@ix.netcom.com(Rev) wrote:

>>I
>(Marmelstein case deleted)
>>    Could you please tell us the name of the judge who ruled in favor
>>of Memelstein?....Also, if you could tell us what the judge's race and
>>religion were, we would appreciate it.
> 
>More importantly was the Judges ruling "EVER" Overturned?? 

>Since when does a Judge have to declare his race or religion?? HMM, I
>do so wonder why you want to declare that.

>Rev, you are the sore loser, this isn't the esteemed Rev Ron Schodel,
>now is it??
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 



========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 



========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:47 PDT 1996
Article: 54875 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: SIMON WEISENTHAL CENTER censoring again (repost)
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:18:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 90
Message-ID: <4tppas$53q@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 17:56:44 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On 30 Jul 1996 04:22:22 GMT, wnabulsi@ix.netcom.com(Sjafar) wrote:

>>The Zionist do not want the truth to spread around. The internet is
>>more dangerous to the Jews than a nuclear Bomb. They will stop at
>>nothing until they destroy their enemies. But time have changed, the
>>zionist are facing the Final War.
>>
>>Salah Jafar

>Really Jafar, you are going to do something?? What you gonna do, lie
>some more about Jews, or maybe your gonna tell another slanderous
>allegation about Israel? Go right ahead, but final war?? You are to
>funny, Israel still is Israel, and the Arabs well, they still are what
>they are. Tah Tah.

>(Wiesenthal snipped, and responses snipped)
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 



========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 



========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:48 PDT 1996
Article: 54876 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!castle.nando.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: No historian has ever
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 06:51:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 31 Jul 1996 09:54:49 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
wrote:

>In article <4t6a7k$3r8@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>On 23 Jul 96 12:02:28, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:
>>
>>><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
>>><+[No historian has ever] [Tue 23 Jul 96 05:38][Tue 23 Jul 96 10:47][0]*>
>>
>>
>>> mnc>     Not one person ever found with radiation damage to the
>>> mnc> reproductive organs.
>>
>>> mnc>     What a piece of shit this holocaust is.
>>
>>>Not one person ever cured of Smallpox by leeches.
>>
>>>Pull your fingers from your ears, Matt.
>>
>>It is one more example of the complete lack of physical evidence for this 
>>mass extermination.  

>    No, it is one more example of Matt Giwer lying.  The letter itself is
>physical evidence.  You can touch it.  And physical evidence has been
>presented before.  Matt Giwer merely denies that it is evidence.

>    There is physical evidence of cyanide use in the Kremas, and physical
>evidence of lots of dead Jews.  Matt Giwer simply denies that there is
>physical evidence _unequivocally_ linking the gas with the deaths, only
>eyewitness testimony.  He says the morgues could have been fumigated for
>lice, maggots, and rats.  But has he produced a dead louse, maggot, or rat
>as physical evidence?  No.  Why should it be necessary to fumigate for
>rats at all?  Why not just keep the gas-tight door closed and put grilles
>over the drains?  Are the rats going to nibble through concrete? 

	You must be straining your won credulity to post this one.  Morgues are
morgues.  They attract vermin.  They are fumigated.

	There are NO unexplained deaths unless you assume there were people who were
not registered as entering.  Every person who was entered into the register
has a recorded fate until the Russians showed up.  

	You have to assume that people were sent there without any record any place
and then were gassed so that they disappeared.  

	And then of course we have the 31 million untraceable people as a result of
that war and it is still completely unclear as to why or even how 10 of those
31 million can be assigned to extermination campaigns without even a
significant fraction of those being documented.  

	About 1/3 of the untraceable are arbitrarily assigned to extermination based
upon nothing but "estimates" which are also without basis save samplings of,
"I can't find them where they were."  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:49 PDT 1996
Article: 54885 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:12:58 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4tpp01$f07@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 15:37:32 +0000, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

>Chuck Ferree writes to Moran, the turkey with no answers.



>tom moran wrote:

>clips

>> >Questioning as usual for someone to please explain for him in lay terms, how the heat from the crematoriums was handled. Which of course is Moran's contribution to the current debate about how the Nazis burned their millions of victims.

>Easy, Moran...oooops (third person)  Mr. Moran should understand that 
>burning 3-4 million dead people (also some live ones too) is easy once 
>you know how.
>>

	Are you certain you are not Alec Grynspan?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug  1 16:43:49 PDT 1996
Article: 54904 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 1996 22:55:23 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 35
Message-ID: <4tm3u5$bil@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
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On 29 Jul 1996 05:14:20 GMT,  wrote:

>Subject: Re: Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
>From: Daniel Keren, dkeren@world.std.com
>Date: Wed, 24 Jul 1996 18:01:34 GMT

>Alles andere als ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) writes:

># Dan, I like your posts, but your attempt at a remorseless 
># putdown of Tom would have been better if you got your 
># magnitudes right.  A ton is either 2,000 lbs. or 2,240, 
># long or short.  So everyone gets 7.4 grams a day, which 
># is _twice_ as much as you calculated.

>In English, "ton" refers to 20cwt (hundredweight) which is 
>2,240 lbs. (1 cwt = 8 stone = 112 lb.)

>In the USA, there is also a "short ton" consisting of twenty "short 
>hundredweights" (110lb each).

>The metric ton (sometimes still written as "tonne") is 
>1,000 kilogrammes, or about 2,204.62 lbs.

	Rather a convoluted explanation.  But some years after I knew of the above
explanation I found our "long" ton or tonne listed as exactly 2200 pounds.  I
went back to verify the relationship between the pound and the kilogram and
found it to be exactly 2.2 pounds.  Without going any further I assumed it was
part of our short lived metrication program.  

	As a sidebar, US Navy construction uses the metric ton.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:10 PDT 1996
Article: 54909 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Sara and her brain power
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:16:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 50
Message-ID: <4tpp6o$f07@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>
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On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:10:42 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:

>On 26 Jul 1996 23:12:08 GMT, kesha2@ix.netcom.com(Janet) wrote:

>>(This is the question I posed to Sara and This is what I got back. 
>>
>>If jews, as we both agree, live all over the world, then why
>>is it that they're always in such Danger of being exterminated?)
>>
>>Janet

>I am surprised that you didn't answer your question, as I am sure that
>you are wanting to do, and more to the question, why would you pose
>such a question??
>_______________________________________________________________________
>Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>_______________________________________________________________________
>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt

>P. GROFF


========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT


" The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
entrances to the four-story
house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
the same people were
forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
had to be transferred to one
place in the courtyard. "
IMT VII - p.491. 







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:11 PDT 1996
Article: 54940 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Racists in Georgia
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:58:51 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 31 Jul 1996 12:53:41 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:

>>   mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>  
>>  	WHITE American male voice.  Accent was not mentioned. 

>	Sorry Matt the official statement was "a male voice with an 
>indistinguishable American accent."  (New York Times, Sunday morning edition)

>	Why do lie about things that are so easy to check out?  Have you 
>been hanging around with l'il tommy again?

	Sorry about that but as read on CNN it was as I stated.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:12 PDT 1996
Article: 54949 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.apk.net!hyperion.nitco.com!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Silence You Almost Can Hear
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:03:15 GMT
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On 28 Jul 96 11:11:08, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[A Silence You Almost Can Hear] [Sat 27 Jul 96 06:40][Sun 28 Jul 96
>01:45][0]*>


> mnc>     Since you are are all of that, what is gryn.ORG?  Just out
> mnc> of curisoty that is.

>A set of letters registered to me, so that Domain Name Servers can
>assign the correct IP address and so that the routers can deliver
>material to me.

>I own it, as the administrative and technical contact.

> >> Prove it.

> >> mnc> It is McVay's personal plaything.  So the subject of free
> >> mnc> speech is always McVay, not Nizkor.  And remember that
> >> mnc> McVay supports Zundel's right to free speech any place
> >> mnc> but Canada.

> mnc>     His supporters have posted his own statements exactly to
> mnc> that effect.  You might take the time to read them.

>I have seen nothing to the effect that Ken excludes Canada from
>Zundel's right to free speech.

	Why is what you have seen of interest?

	Why is it that you will not go back to the failure of any relationship to
witness reports of gassing to the effects of gassing?  Why does an engineer,
who can shed such great light upon this manner, REFUSE to disucss this matter
which is the one under discussion?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:13 PDT 1996
Article: 54983 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:06:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 31 Jul 1996 23:38:38 -0400, mstein@access1.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
wrote:

>In article <4ti5f0$l3l@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>,
>confessed liar Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>On Sat, 27 Jul 1996 13:14:55 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>	Oh, I see your having the same problem with Keren over here as to
>>>these referred to reports, patents and manuals that he keeps alluding
>>>to without actually posting the stuff itself.
>>
>>Having a problem is hardly the word for it.  He keeps making it up as he goes
>>along.

>    Prove it, confessed liar.

>    Would you like to discuss all the times you have done this?  How about
>the claim that the Brack letter was an NKVD forgery?

>>He makes it up as he goes along and then claims it is gospel.  It is
>>rather tiring not to mention boring.  

>    Another lie from the confessed liar.

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

	Do you really wish to continue to advertise the conspiratorital libel of
Nizkor?  

>    What is the difference between you and Rudy Vrba, confessed liar?

	If there is no difference then Vrba is a liar.  Is that not where your post
leads?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:14 PDT 1996
Article: 54994 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: STUPID GERMANS
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 08:50:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 31 Jul 1996 09:17:54 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
wrote:

>In article <4tn037$qos@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>On Sun, 28 Jul 1996 16:35:54 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>>II.
>>>	According to the Holocaust story, instead of building chimneys
>>>right in the immediate proximity of the furnaces for evacuation of the
>>>flaming residue from raging coke fires, and availing of the long and
>>>widely known principle of draft and chimney design, the Germans built
>>>them 20 to 40 feet away so they would have to install underground
>>>flues from furnace to chimney. Of course since heat rises this setup
>>>would necessitate the need for some sort of mechanical assist like
>>>heat resistant blowers to draw the smoke and hot ash first down into
>>>the ground or cellar (take your pick), and then through the connecting
>>>flue(s) to the chimney.
>>
>>In fact, until you raised this point, it was a holohugger act of faith that
>>they were exactly as you describe them.

>    Huh?  Act of faith?  The plans exist.

	The act of faith is that this has anything whatsoever in any manner to do with
gassing anyone.  

>>I remember going over it months ago.

>    But then, you remember many things which are not so.  You make John
>Dean look like archival videotape even when you are not deliberately
>lying.  And you are a confessed liar:

>http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted

	Rather Nizkor is a confessed site of libel, blood libel in all of its Nazi and
antisemite references.  Blood libel excuses things that real libel would not.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:15 PDT 1996
Article: 55000 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 06:57:28 GMT
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On 31 Jul 1996 22:28:28 GMT, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote:

>In article <1wz-nOev1m$O065yn@login.dknet.dk>, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
>Kreiberg) wrote:

>> In article , Daniel Keren wrote:
>> >[Followup = alt.revisionism]
>> >
>> >olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes:
>> >
>> ># Why did the nazis chose Zyklon B for the killing of
>> ># humans in the concentration camps? 
>> >
>> >Because it was simple and cheap. Two very good reasons.
>> >
>> ># Why didn't they chose sodium-cyanid crystals poured 
>> ># down in sulphuric acid like they have done in execution
>> ># gaschambers in the USA since the twenties and still do 
>> ># today? 
>> >
>> >Why bother? There was plenty of Zyklon-B around, and simply
>> >throwing it into the chambers, via the openings, was good enough.
>> >
>> But they still have to order it and have it delivered.

>And sodium cyanide and sulphuric acid would not need to be ordered as
>well? You make no sense whatsoever, Mr.Kreiberg. (But then you didn't make
>sense with your "exploding corpses" claim either.) Irregardless, it is a
>specious objection. Zyklon B was a commercial fumigant that was _designed_
>to be shipped in bulk. It was in widespread use not only in the civilian
>sector but within the German armed forces as well. Zyklon B, _because_ it
>was ubiquitous, was _inconspicuous_. Only the removal (and diminuation) of
>the lachrymal changed this. 

>BTW, Not only would sulphuric acid need to be transported to Auschwitz, it
>would need to be transported _away_ as well. And don't forget that it
>would be contamninated with cyanides as well as _normally_ being toxic.
>Spent Zyklon B, on the other hand, was non-toxic and easily transportable
>(back to the factory) or disposable (typically by incineration).  

>> >Why bother with a more complicated procedure?
>> 
>> The American way of executing people with HCN was well tested, very quick 
>> and efficient. It was also a much more simple way of producing HCN gas.

>So was the Nazi way. The homicidal use of Zyklon B was simplicity itself:
>open a can, pour into the gas chamber, and walk away. The Nazi way was
>also designed to kill hundreds, even _thousands_, at a time. Again, Mr.
>Kreiberg, you are making no sense with your specious objections. 

	But none of if would have matched the descriptions of the witnesses which is
as always to root of the discussion.  Not a one.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:16 PDT 1996
Article: 55008 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 07:01:20 GMT
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On 31 Jul 1996 12:28:17 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
wrote:

>In article <4tn807$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:18:35 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>Incinerated hair was found?  By what miracle do you propose this occurred?
>>
>>>Matt opens mouth.
>>
>>>Matt inserts foot.
>>
>>>Matt kicks.
>>
>>>Matt claims conspiracy.
>>
>>>Trya  again, Matt. If the PARTIALLY-BURNT remains of the last firing of
>>>a Krema were not disturbed, it would be easy to distinguish the hair.
>>
>>>Years ago, when I smoked a pipe and used an unusual tobacco blend, some
>>>of the folks at the club decided to stick a clump of hair into my
>>>tobacco. 
>>
>>>It stank, of course, but when I knocked the ashes out of my pipe, the
>>>hair was clearly recognizable.
>>
>>This is fansinating.  The MOST flammable part of the human body remains after
>>the rest of the body is partially burned.

>    Suppose the body were at the periphery of the pyre, head out.

	Then the rarity of the find, in combination with the common findings would
tend to support the case but only AFTER major excavations.  But note that Alec
is leaving you hanging on this one as he knows better.  
 



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:17 PDT 1996
Article: 55009 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel
Subject: Re: Turner Diaries Now Out From Barricade Books
Date: Thu, 01 Aug 1996 06:36:24 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:55009 alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2276

On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:08:57 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4tlvoe$a0@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt 
>Giwer) wrote:


>>         Dees is the one most responsible for falsely labeling the
>militia groups as
>> white supremacist groups.  That gives him some standing in the anti-racist
>> community.  He was right in there trying to hang the label in Koresh and in
>> many cases he succeeded.  
>> 

>Please provide proof that Morris Dees called David Koresh a white supremacist.
> 
>I saw no such information in the SPLC's newsletters.

	You should have watched him on CNN.  
 
>The fact that you dislike Mr. Dees only increases my respect for him and
>the work he does.

	I have always expected you to respect idiots who are also lying for funding
raising.  
 
>You should have half the honesty and commitment Morris Dees has.

	The Dogtown Rangers are a militia group.  

> 
>One tenth, even.
> 
>Sara
> 
>By the way, I'm trimming ALL responses to Giwer to alt.revisionism and
>alt.fan.ernst-zundel. None of the other groups he spams are appropriate to
>any of this.

	Grow up, little girl, and stop getting all of your information off of the
internet.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:17 PDT 1996
Article: 55017 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars...
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 09:12:25 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 02  4:13:31 AM CDT 1996
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On 1 Aug 1996 13:52:07 -0400, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article , mvanalst@rbi.com
>(Mark Van Alstine) writes:

>>
>>> Reason why those black things ain't l'il chimneys:
>>> 
>>> 1)  They are too tall to be little anythings.
>>
>>And what makes you think this? How tall do you think these ersatz "rolls
>>of tar paper" in the photo are? Please enumerate your assumptions. 

>OK, click up the picture.  We can see the edge of the Krema above ground,
>and we know that it is 25 feet 4 inches in width (the length, receding in
>the photo, is 98 feet something).  Now there are two things self-evident
>to me in the picture.  The first things is that these black things are not
>down the center line.  This is not obvious because the LK in the photo is
>slightly canted.  But the three things I see look to be about 3/4 of the
>way over towards the left side.  Furthermore, I am not sure that they are
>even in line (this might be another reason for the variable width).

>The second thing is that, using the 25'4" as a bench mark, we can estimate
>the height and width of the black things.  Just eyeballing it, I would say
>about 4 feet high and 1 foot wide.  Sounds like a roll of tar paper to me.
> OTOH, does not sound like a little chimney that is supposed to cover an
>opening about 3 feet wide.  So there is that, and there is the fact that
>they are not centered.

>Beyond that there is the fact that there is a discussion about completing
>the roof of the Krema.  And so tar paper is a logical conclusion to me.

	Beyond that the splotches on the aerial photos are at least 10 feet in the
smallest dimension and in many other ways do not match the chimney
description.  They are not regular and are not in a straight line.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:18 PDT 1996
Article: 55021 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler praises Jews-let's all praise Hitler!
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 04:19:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 29 Jul 1996 13:18:18 -0400, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote:

>In article <4tfh35$pch@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com writes:

>>Subject:	Hitler praises Jews-let's all praise Hitler!
>>From:	rblackmore@juno.com
>>Date:	28 Jul 1996 10:57:41 GMT
>>
>>Of course Hitler's praise was demonstrated by banning the music of Jewish
>>composers from being played in Germany.

>That's the interesting part.  Apparently there was a disjunction between
>his personal tastes and the tastes which he allowed Goebbels to impose on
>Germany.  

	In the old days in the US the President was choosen by the party bosses and it
was in fact the party bosses that ran the country.  

	With parliamentary governments it was and is even more clear.  Failing a major
vote means the PM's own colalition did not support him (he tried to do what
they did not like, or like the Major replaces Thatcher event)  and you see who
has the real power in the party.  

	That this does not translate to other countries, particularly Germany, for the
true believers is hardly more than amusing.   

	After all, when one has the very personification of evil, it bothers the
psyche to have to admit they are dealing with second best.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:19 PDT 1996
Article: 55035 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 04:24:28 GMT
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On Sun, 28 Jul 1996 18:18:59 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote:

>[Followup = alt.revisionism]

>an572010@anon.penet.fi (Vyshinsky) writes:

># The Leuchter Report came out of a highly dramatic secret
># expedition in the middle of the Second Great Holocaust
># Trial in 1988 in Toronto where the Holocaust Lobby, working
># through the government while helping themselves to tax payer
># money, had put Ernst on trial for "spreading false news."

>This is starting to bore. We've been through this dozens of
>times already.

>Ernst Zundel is a crazy Nazi, who not only believes the 
>Holocaust never happened, he also believes that the Nazi
>leadership used "secret UFO's" to flee to a "secret base"
>in the South Pole. He also claimed that the base is still
>there, and tried to organize an expedition to look for it;
>he also claimed that there is a hole in the South Pole,
>via which the "Nazi UFO's" enter the inner earth.

>See some of Zundel's fliers on this, and other related
>UFO insanity: check out http://www.nizkor.org/, in the
>directory ftp.cgi?people/z/zundel.ernst/flying-saucers.

	And it is of more than passing interest that both gassing and UFOs rely solely
upon testimonies and wildly misinterpretated pictures not ot mention admitted
lies by some of the "witnesses"  particularly those who find themselves under
oath in court.  

>This is really hilarious stuff; look it up.

	Both UFOs and gassings are equally hilarious.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:20 PDT 1996
Article: 55090 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 06:53:30 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 02 Aug 96 19:05:40, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Mauving right along] [Fri 02 Aug 96 05:19][Fri 02 Aug 96 10:11][0]*>

> >> How do insect eggs breath, Matt?

> mnc>     That is a question to which the answer is rather complex.
> mnc> Rather than attempt to answer it myself I refer you to any
> mnc> holohugger post explaining how or to a text on the subject.

> mnc>     Although insect eggs vary widely they are not like chicken
> mnc> eggs and do metabolize the atmosphere in their development.

>The question had a purpose. Thanks for doing such a good job in
>ducking so visibly.

>I said that you were useful.

	At least you learned something.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:21 PDT 1996
Article: 55092 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 07:08:09 GMT
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On 2 Aug 1996 15:15:12 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:

>On 7/29/96 at 8:58, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote: 

>>From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>>Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 22:06:14 GMT
>>
>>
>>        I wonder if the ten hour ventilation time has anything to do with the
>>long promised Degesh pub not showing up before.  
>>
>>Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication 
>>
>>History
>>
>>As long as 80 years ago it was recognized that hydrocyanic acid could be
>>useful in pest control but it took half this time to popularize the method.
>>
>>Deficiencies and disadvantages had first of all to be eliminated from
>>the method of application. First this had been done in such a way that
>>hydrocyanic acid was no more developed on the spot by mixing cyanides and
>>acid, but this process already took place in the factory: The so-called "pot
>>method" was replaced by liquid hydrocyanic acid. The few deficiencies of this
>>procedure were removed in the early twenties by the ZYKLON method: One added
>>liquid HCN to a "carrier substance", thus simplifying handling whilst all
>>favourable properties of liquid HCN were maintained. At the same time, danger
>>to the operator was reduced to a minimum. Hydrocyanic acid in the form of
>>ZYKLON can be safely stored for considerable periods and under all climatic
>>conditions, any quantity of gas can be easily measured, quickly and cleanly
>>released. Any residures are completely harmless. 
>>
>>Composition
>>
>>In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid hydrocyanic acid is chemically
>>stabilized and absorbed in a porous, inert material. It is supplied in
>>snippets or discs prepared from wood pulp. Snippets generally are preferred as
>>in view of their larger surface they give off the gas more rapidly. Upon
>>request also discs can be supplied. The aborbent material can easily be
>>collected at the end of the fumigation. 
>>
>>Packing
>>
>>ZYKLON is packed in handy, gas-tight tins of various sizes which are
>>packed in strong wooden cases. One case, measuring 72 x 50 x 36 cm contains:
>>
>>Imperial - units 16 tins, each containing 40 ozs. HCN - total 40 lbs HCN or 30
>>tins, each containing 16 ozs. HCN - total 30 lbs HCN. 
>>
>>Toxicity
>>
>>No thoroughly effective pesticide is known to exist which could be
>>considered to be harmless to human beings or mammals. Fatal concentrations of
>>HCN impede or completely cut off the oxygen supply to the cells. The poison
>>can enter the body in three ways: through the mouth, the respiratory
>>organs, or the pores of the skin. The latter will occur in particular if the
>>body is exposed to high concentration for any length of time and in
>>unfavourable conditions (great heat). 
>>
>>Methods
>>
>>Prior to fumigation, the tins must be distributed about the building.  The
>>tins are opened, and the ZYKLON is scattered so as to reach even the remotest
>>parts of the building. If this is done correctly the gas will develop evenly
>>and instantaneously throughout the premises. Spaces difficult to reach may be
>>charged separately. In multi-storied buildings one begins with the top floor,
>>and then works towards the exit, taking care that nobody re-enters rooms
>>already charged. Even under mask protection it is not advisable to expose
>>oneself to the gas more than is absolutely necessary. The exit door is sealed
>>after everybody has left the building; warning notices must be put up before
>>gassing commences and a guard placed near the building to prevent unauthorised
>>persons from entering. Time of exposure depends on the type of pests to be
>>attacked; for the destruction of the various types of moths and their
>>pre-adult stages 24 hours will suffice, against other kinds of insect pests
>>one should fumigate for 48 hours. If there are any dense stowages or bulkss of
>>commodities to penetrate, the time of exposure may need to be extended to 72
>>hours. 
>>
>>Ventilation
>>
>>During this operation gas-masks must be worn. The ventilation takes
>>place in the reverse direction to the gassing. All windows near the entrance
>>are opened first, then gradually those in the rest of the building. It is
>>advisable to work only for 10 to 15 minutes at a time and then to make
>>interruptions of half an hour, as a precaution against skin poisoning.
>>
>>Depending on concentration, outdoor tempature and weather conditions,
>>ventilation will take at least 10 hours. Clearing of tins and residues may be
>>commenced before the end of airing. Windows and doors must remain open, and
>>gas-masks kept available. ZYKLON tins and absorbent material must always be
>>collected and cleared away before the resumption of work.
>>
>>Source: Zyklon for Pest Control, Degesch Publication 


>From the "Directives for the use of Prussic Acid (Zyklon)" as issued by 
>the Health Institution of the Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia in 
>Prague. It is contemporary to the Third Reich.


> Prussic acid is a gas which is generated by evaporation.
> Boiling point: 25 degrees Centigrade [point at which the liquid 
>becomes gas]
> The liquid evaporates easily.
> Prussic acid is soluble in water.
> Lower limit of combustion: 67.2 g/m^3
> Higher limit of combustion: 480.0 g/m^3

> Normal application approx. 8-10 g/m^3 [for delousing], therefore not
> explosive.

> Prussic acid is one of the most powerful poisons. 1 mg per kg of body 
>weight
> is sufficient to kill a human being. Women and children are generally 
>more
> susceptible than men.

> Poisoning through the skin:

> Dizziness, headache, vomiting, general feeling of sickness, etc. All 
>these
> symptoms pass if one gets out into the fresh air.

>  --------

> The following is the lethal doses (in g/m^3) per species:

> Mosquitos:     0.25 for 30 minutes
> Bugs:          0.25 for 1 hour
> Humans:        0.30 instantly
> Fleas:         1.25 for 2 hours
> Rats and mice: 2.5 for 2 hours
> Lice:          5.00 for 2 hours
> Cockroaches:   5.00 for 2 hours


>After all, we CERTAINLY wouldn't want anyone to think you were trying 
>to mislead in regard to lethal doses/times...

	I was also the first to post this one as I remember.  

	But what you post is the basis for the holohugger insistance upon 12 hours or
more for the required exposure time in pest control.  

	And it was obviously produced by people who had no idea what they were doing
as rats and mice have a higher metabolic rate than humans as they failed to do
the obvious in presenting a constant baseline of concentration.  

	I would have thought that would be obvious to everyone.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:22 PDT 1996
Article: 55093 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.polish,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.clinton,alt.activism,soc.culture.african.american,alt.2600,alt.atheism,alt.christnet,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Turner Diaries Now Out From Barricade Books
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On 2 Aug 1996 02:21:05 GMT, rafeb@tiac.net (Rafe B.) wrote:

>In article <4tnp7f$937@crcnis3.unl.edu>, tlofton@unlinfo.unl.edu says...
>>
>>Andrew Mathis (fresh@panix.com) wrote:
>>[snip]
>>: Do you deny, Matt, that the Trochmann brothers, who run the militia of
>>: Montana, have Aryan Nations ties?
>>
>>I'm not Matt, but I'm not aware of any actions having been taken by the 
>>Militia of Montana that are racist.  Do you, Andrew, have any evidence
>>of such?  If not, then shouldn't the fact there are racist Democrats, 
>>Republicans, caucasians, blacks, etc. nullify your "argument?"


>The Trochman brothers (founders of the MOM) have well-known
>ties to Christian Identity, KKK, and the Aryan Nations.
>Of course, they keep a more modest profile when faced with
>national-level media coverage (e.g., on their web page.)

>In 1990, John Trochman was featured speaker at the Aryan
>Nations World Congress.  Richard Butler (aging head of
>Aryan Nations) made complementary remarks about the Trochmans'
>involvement in Aryan Nations.

>Anti-semitic publications from Liberty Lobby are often
>sold and distributed at MOM gatherings.

>The Trochmans also have ties to Louis Beam (KKK)
>and to a Christian Identity group known as
>"United Citizens for Justice".

>As to actual acts of violence against their
>perceived enemies, I am not aware of any.  But
>it sure seems like they're gearing up for something...


>Source:  "The Party of Fear", David H. Bennet, 
>Vintage Books, 1988.  pp 450-451.

>Also:  "Gathering Storm", Morris Dees, 
>HarperCollins, 1996, P. 79


	Even if all true, so fucking what?  The only issue is acts of violence of
which you are aware of none which is quite correct as their have been none.  

	It is still a free country, even for the Klan.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:22 PDT 1996
Article: 55099 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.culture.german
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 07:28:43 GMT
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On Mon, 31 Jul 1996 11:02:56 +0100, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>In article <4tih3d$1np@netnews.upenn.edu>, Silke-Maria  Weinec wrote:
>>
>>That's a beautiful logic. If we talked more about Cambodia, then 
>>holocaust revisionism would disappear. You're getting better and better, 
>>Ole! You really can't think of any other reasons why people want to deny 
>>the holocaust? What if you try really hard?

> If some nazis want to deny the holocaust, so what? If some communists say
>that most of what you hear about millions of people perished in communist 
>prisoner camps is nothing but bourgois propaganda concocted by the CIA, so
>what? Is there something unusual in criminals denying their crimes? 
>According to the Danish penal code you will not receive extra punishment
>no matter how much you are denying your crimes. Thus it cannot be punishable
>to deny crimes committed against humanity. If you are not charged yourself
>with those crimes that you are denying you would be considered even less 
>culpable.

	Holohuggers are very strange people.  It is almost as though they enjoy what
they are doing.  Probably the kind the rushes to an accident site to look at
the blood. 





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug  3 07:04:23 PDT 1996
Article: 55117 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Kevin Alfred Storm and the NA on Genocide
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 09:30:24 GMT
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On 2 Aug 1996 17:08:05 +0200, nobody@REPLAY.COM (Anonymous) wrote:

>A few comments about the NA and advocamy of Genocide.
>Genocide in its formal definition is NOT limited to physical extermination
>of a group based on racial, religious or ethnic origin.

>Genocide may include forcibly expulsion of a group of people or even 
>attempts to exterminate this
>group by denial sterilization. 
>Since certain people want to cleanse the U.S. by expelling people of non 
>white origin, such an attempt may be considered Genocide. 

	The US had no such interest.  The US does have an interest in expelling those
who are criminals by the very fact that they are in this country.  Do you have
anything other an anti-American ignorance behind your couwardly anonymous
post?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:45 PDT 1996
Article: 55148 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 08:04:15 GMT
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On 2 Aug 1996 09:02:41 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:

>On 7/29/96 at 14:43, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: 

>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:
>>
>>
>>        Imagine, with these hot underground flues running below the
>>floors of the crematoria, it must have been some pretty hot walking.
>>
>>Ooch - ouch. 
>>
>>        What the Holocasut story needs now is one of those 'deus ex
>>machina' testimonies relating how those in the facilities wore special
>>high lift insulated shoes.



>>While on 8/1/96 at 22:28, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:

>[snip]

>>The ventilation period of 10 hours or so becomes irrelevant,
>>of course, if one uses gas masks, as were used by the
>>sonderkommando, or if the room is forcibly ventilated,
>>as in Kremas II and III. 

>        Then perhaps it is the 15 minutes work time, 30 minutes in the 
>fresh air even
>with gas masks to avoid being poisoned through the skin that applies.  
>As for
>the "forceable ventilation" that Polish winter air condenses it so we 
>are back
>to skin poisoning.  

>        Of course some day someone will have to find drawings that 
>specify or the
>orginal blowers to see if they were up to this task or were simply to 
>keep the
>air flowing for the morgue workers.  

	That would be nice to find but so far there is absolutely no indication LK I
ever had a blower of any kind.  No one has even found fittings or foundation
for the input side of the system where it would have been mounted.  And
remember, it is electrical, it needs be protected from the elements so there
is a lot more than fittings and foundations that are nonexistant, such as a
drawing of the room that protected it from the elements.  
	
	And in the picture Pressac managed to dig up, one would expect to at least see
a power pole leading to the building to run the fan but there is none.  








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:46 PDT 1996
Article: 55152 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
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On Fri, 2 Aug 1996 21:31:53 GMT, ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) wrote:

> wrote:
>> ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) wrote:

>>> Mostly I stick to just one or two newsgroups.  Your claim 
>>> appears to be nothing more than a baseless attack.  Why?
>>
>>Is that why this was posted to:

>You deleted the claim I was responding to.  Why?
>Intentional dishonesty?  The claim was that I "cruise" the newsgroups.

>>> Because I've violated the rules of the thought-police?
>>
>>No, because you're a liar. 9 newsgroups is NOT "just one or two."

>And you use out-of-context quotes to lie about people.  I didn't set
>the list of newsgroups, and I don't even know who's reading what from
>where.  If you think that retaining the list of newsgroups in a
>followup is "cruising" the newsgroups than you are a fool as well as a
>liar.

	These holohuggers are deliberatedly doing in order to create an "abuse" claim
against those they want to lose access to the internet.  It is an old game.  

	What needs to be done is not to delete the inappropriate conferences but to
post is doing it to the conferences.  I have one example who even cancelled
the message where he started it in hopes it could not be traced to him.
Fortunately it was still on my disk.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:47 PDT 1996
Article: 55153 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 07:16:17 GMT
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On 2 Aug 1996 08:59:42 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:

>On 7/30/96 at 22:11, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote: 

>[snip]
>>
>>>The ventilation period of 10 hours or so becomes irrelevant,
>>>of course, if one uses gas masks, as were used by the
>>>sonderkommando, or if the room is forcibly ventilated,
>>>as in Kremas II and III. 
>>
>>        Then perhaps it is the 15 minutes work time, 30 minutes in the 
>fresh air even
>>with gas masks to avoid being poisoned through the skin that applies.  As for
>>the "forceable ventilation" that Polish winter air condenses it so we are back
>>to skin poisoning.  
>>

>But then the HCN would evaporate off the still warm corpses, into "that 
>Polish winter air" again, where it would still be flushed via natural 
>convection.

	It is called condensation on the walls.  Everything coming off of the bodies
simply migrate to the cooler walls and ceiling that were of course being
cooled by the zero to sub-zero air, as were the bodies being cooled.  

>Greg Raven tried various tacks on this issue better than 4 yrs ago, and 
>was shot down, too.  So, don't feel too bad about your inability to 
>score a point.  Of course, Raven's arguments had a far greater 
>appearance of rationality.

	I have no idea what he posted back then.  Given the technical knowledge
exhibited on this conference, it is unlikely anyone was able to determine any
such thing.  But, should you have a technical response, please post it.  It
will be quite a change of pace from the usual nerfbrains who think they have a
technical opinion.  

>>        They are ventilated with heated air, just like the Degesh 
>delousing chambers
>>were.  It is very old technology.

>Not as old as the "technology" of a mammalian (i.e., warm-blooded) 
>body.  A full gassing chamber would have a large heating component 
>present in the fresh corpses.

	You need to learn something about turbulent mixing some day.  It will be good
for you.  

>Don't bother replying; you're apparently incapable of a rational 
>response.

	How would you know?  

>Sent with an evaluation copy of Cindy's Newsmailer v1.1.

	BTW:  Your attempts at spamming that thing are not reaching here.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:48 PDT 1996
Article: 55154 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 07:40:10 GMT
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On Thu, 01 Aug 1996 19:54:43 -0300, Keith Morrison  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>> >>The rivers meander (are snaking) in the area indicating a very slow current.
>> >>Ashes would not be washed away.  The would have sunk to the bottom and still
>> >>be there.
>> 
>> >    Another unsupported assertion from a confessed liar who has made many
>> >provable errors.
>> 
>>         May I suggest you look at a map of the area?

>Yeehaw!  Finally, Matt stumbles into my science.  I knew 'twas but a matter
>of time.

>Meandering streams indicate that said water is flowing across a relatively
>flat plain, usually the flood plain of the river.  Matt is correct in that
>a meandering stream usually indicates *relatively* slow water flow, due to
>the fact that the gradient the stream moves through is low, say a few feet
>every few miles.  However, this does not suddenly mean that the stream in
>question stops carrying sediments.  Moreover, this ignores annual events
>like spring floods which tend to move a great deal of material far more
>quickly.

	Except that since we have the Internet Cremation Society actually describing
the "ash" as not really being ash and since we have holohuggers introducing
bone grinding to the fineness of a 1 cm sieve we are not talking about
particulate sediment here.  That is in approximate agreement with the ICS.  

	We are talking about "ashes" that are many orders of magnitude larger than
sediment.  

	For all practical purposes you might as well be talking about the river moving
small pebbles.  And since this is your speciality, you know the dynamics will
be that the sediment will move leaving these small objects behind much as the
stone lined stream bed.  

>Let us see what a river can transport in an extreme case and then get back
>to the Vistula, shall we?

	Search for the Internet Cremation Society and learn what you are talking about
moving.  Then get back to me.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:49 PDT 1996
Article: 55155 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 07:47:15 GMT
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On 2 Aug 1996 14:18:02 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:

>On 8/1/96 at 19:54, Keith Morrison  wrote: 

>>the width of the Amazon.  Assuming the Amazon to be 90 meters deep and
>>the Vistula, say, 15 meters means that its cross section is .0003125
>>the size of the Amazon's.  Given the same water speed, the Vistula will
>>therefore carry .0003125 times the water volume.  Assuming the same
>>sediment carrying capacity, in twenty-four hours the Polish river will
>>move (.0003125*3000000) 937 tonnes of sediment.  For convenience, we'll
>>round this off to 900 tonnes/day past an arbitray point.  This means
>>that in two years (730 days), 657 000 tonnes of sediment can be moved
>>past this arbitrary point.  Given an average person massing 70 kilos,
>>this represents the equivalent of 9 390 000 bodies.

>Good work, Keith, but for one thing:  the ash of an avg. human is 
>approx. 1-2 kg, not 70 kg.

	It has been posted here before.  2-3 kg.  

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: How many tons of bone fragments?
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:31:58 GMT

http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml

Dec 26, 1995 @ 
Q. What's left after a body is cremated? It's ash, but what size are the
pieces? Are they fine, like
dust, or larger? Can you still see pieces of bone or teeth?

A. Tony, After the cremation process is complete, all that is left is
very brittle bone fragments.
Many of the bones are still distinguishable although not fully in tact.
Technically, there are no
ashes left at all but the term "ashes" is used to describe what is
referred to as cremated remains
or cremains. The pieces of bone fragments are then processed into a fine
powder and placed in
the urn selected. What remains after the cremation process is
approximately 5 to 7 pounnds of
cremated remains.

	800,000 at Treblinka x 5 lbs = 4,000,000 lbs = 2000 tons of bone
fragments missing.  Buried in a 5 acre area.  400 tons of bone fragments
per acre, approximately 15 pounds of bone fragments per square foot.  

	1,200,000 at Auschwitz.  3000 tons of bone fragments capable of passing
through a 1 centimeter mesh.  

	My thank again to Van Alstine for this website.

=====

>FYI, a denier in another forum of debate stated, in March 1992 that the 
>total ash production from Auschwitz would have been 800 m^3, if 
>non-denier death estimates were correct.  Try plugging these figures 
>in; you may manage to reduce Giwer to incoherence.

>Did I say "incoherence?"  I meant silence...

>The first happened long ago.

	This is the correct calculation.  Whoever posted that was way under, by a
factor of five at least.  

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: dem bones again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:08:01 GMT

	You will recall from last time we has 2000 tons of bone fragments from
Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find.  That was based upon the
internet cremation society's statement of 5-7 pound of bone fragements
remaining after cremation and I used 5 pounds so as not to exaggerate
the number.

2-7-96 @ 
Q. Do you have standard requirements for an urn? Someone has asked me to
design and
fabricate two urns for he and his wife. I have no idea where to start.Do
you have design
specifications? 

A. In order to accomidate the cremated remains of an average size adult,
the urn should have a
capacity of at least 205 cubic inches. Beyond that requirement, any
shape, size and design is
acceptable and the only limitations is your imagination.

	Here we have the volume of this mass of bone fragments.

	This gives us roughly 3500 cubic yards of bone fragments to find at
Treblinka and some 5200 cubic yards of them at Auschwitz.  This latter
is a cube 52 feet on a side.  On the other hand it would cover three
acres about one foot deep.  However there a convenient river there that
has never been probed.

	So back to Treblinka.  There we have a 45 foot cube.  Thus we have
enough to cover the five acres at Trblinka to a depth of 3.5 inches with
bone fragments.  But of course they were buried so at some point coring
would find a 3.5 inch thick layer of bone fragments.  

	But of course folks like Keren keep muttering about 27 foot deep core
fragments.  So let me address that for our applied mathematician.  The
false assumption is that 27 feet means anything.  He assumes that 27
feet means distributed over the 27 foot core.  The fallacy of that
assumption is that a 1000 foot core would not imply a 1000 distribution.


	If they were buried then there would be a distinct layer or layers of
these bone fragments.  

	For those of you who may have missed it, a core preserves the layers.
It does not randomize the contents of the entire core.  









From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:49 PDT 1996
Article: 55156 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 07:26:36 GMT
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On Mon, 31 Jul 1996 11:16:34 +0100, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>In article <4thvv0$8ln@hades.rz.uni-sb.de>, Stefan Schneider wrote:
>>
>>As I showed you, there is no problem  with the temperature at all. So why 
>>do you post this silly allegation again, when you it's already shown to be 
>>of no value?

> You can of course evaporate HCN from Zyklon B at various temperatures, but
>the higher the temperature the faster and thereby the more efficient it will 
>be. I think that the nazis would have chosen the most efficient method. In 
>the USA gassing of people had been tested many times in execution 
>gaschambers. Why wouldn't the Germans have taken a closer look at the 
>American experience instead of trying to apply an insecticide, which is what 
>Zyklon B really is.

	You have to realize the Nazi mindset.  When they wanted to do something new,
and as we know from the Auschwitz Museum (below) Eichmann and Hoess had
decided to use a gas but they did not know which one.  So rather than
researching gasses used for executions, they played around with anything that
came along until they found something at work.

	And then, as all the holohuggers insist, LK I was resigned to be a gas chamber
but, according to the mindset, the designers were permitted no access to any
"foreign" technology nor were they permitted to know even the slightest thing
about the gas that was going to be used.  

	It all helps explain why they lost the war.  They were just so stupid.  

=====

"The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11. Proctected by
a gas mask, I watched the killing myself. In the crowded cells, death came
instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost
smothered cry, and it was all over....  I must even admit that this gassing
set my mind at rest, for the mass
extermination of the Jews was to start soon, and at that time neither Eichmann
nor I was certain as to how these mass killings were to be
carried out. In would be by gas, but we did not know which gas and how it was
to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure."  "KL
Auschwitz seen by the SS Hoess, Broad, Kremer", second edition, Museum w
Oswiecimu, 1978, pp. 92-95.







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:50 PDT 1996
Article: 55157 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 08:36:27 GMT
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On Mon, 31 Jul 1996 20:01:07 +0100, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) wrote:

>In article , schwartz@infinet.co wrote:
>>In article , olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole
>>Kreiberg) wrote:
>>
>>
>>>          In the USA there has been built a special holocaust museum in
>>>        spite of the fact that the American Jews have never suffered any
>>>        particular harm and have always been among the most well educated
>>>        and affluent. One could ask oneself whether it had been more
>>>        appropriate if there were built a museum for the fate of the Red
>>>        Indians or the Negro slavery. Why has the sufferings of Jews an
>>>        exceptional position in proportion to other ethnic groups?
>>> 
>>
>>Dear Ole:
>> 
>>Since you don't live in America, and have extremely limited knowledge of
>>American history, this is quite a statement.

> Well I have stayed in the USA for alltogether around a year and I have past 
>a course in American history at the University of Copenhagen.

>>I suppose you are NOT familiar with the quota system that denied American
>>Jews entrance into American colleges and universities.

> It is still a fact that the American Jews have always been 
>overrepresented among the wealthiest and most well educated in the USA. You 
>better be happy that the Jews are not registered as an ethnic group in the
>USA, because in that case you may face some problems with affirmative
>action. What about some affirmative in e.g. Hollywood in favour of 
>Gentiles or in the massmedia as well as in banking and finance?

	Actually he is bringing up a "temple myth" that there was ever a quota system
of any interest in any American University.  They have always existed but they
have been for "other" purposes, largely pious frauds as was the recently
killed racial quotas.  

	Quotas by religion certainly existed but they were are institutions that had a
religious orientation at the time, Harvard as an example.  No quota was
against Jews any more than it was against any other religion.  I mix was
sought and it was obtained.  There were even Indians in most of the quota
mixes.  
 
>>I would call that "particular" harm. The fact that people managed to get
>>around it (my father, for instance, attended medical school in Scotland),
>>says something about the resiliency and intelligence of Jews.
>> 
>>I suppose you are NOT familiar with the swastiksa painted on synagogues,
>>or the vandalism done to Jewish cemetaries.
>> 
> In fact I am. I stayed in Iowa in the winter and spring 1994. A Swastika
>and some political slogan was painted on a synagoge in Des Moines. This
>silly incident caused a lot of fuss. It turned out that it was just some
>unserious youth gang that had done it. The police told that in most such 
>cases it is just teenagers and even children that wish to provoke or 
>whatever. Here in DK you often see swastikas, hammers and sickles and 
>various obscenities which nobody take seriously. People know that it is 
>just teenageboys that are behind.

	But in the US, as you learned, it becomes a media event.  You did not say how
long ago it was but in this decade, the majority of case resolutions I have
heard of have been as you describe or worse.  We just had a racist swastika
painting on an army barracks.  The perp was black.  

	The media dropped it at that point so I may never find his motivation.  

	If you read of a synagogue with swastikas painted on it, odds are it is Jewish
teenagers.  Maybe they are getting tired of the crap.  

>>I would call that "particular" harm.
>> 
>>Finally, I assume you've never heard of the "Museum of the American
>>Indian" in New York City (actually, it may be in the Bronx, I don't have
>>the address with me). It houses one of the most expectional collections of
>>Native American artifacts in the world.
>> 
>>Are you willing to write a second letter to the editor of the moderate
>>leftwinged Danish newspaper admitting your mistakes?
>> 
>As far as I know the holocaust museum is not mentioning anything about the
>treatment of the Jews in the USA allthough it is situated there. To me
>it seems absurd to build a big and expensive museum in the USA for the 
>alleged treatment of Jews solely outside the USA.

	It was a pressure group and we had a wimp as a president at the time, Jimmy
Carter.  Carter had the ability to cave at the slightest suggestion of moral
indignation.  He was a born again, nutcase who saw flying saucers and was
attacked by a killer rabbit.  And those were his good points.  He was only
elected because of Nixon and Watergate.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:51 PDT 1996
Article: 55160 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 07:50:56 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 2 Aug 1996 15:15:47 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:

>On 7/29/96 at 10:49, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote: 
>>
>>        Of course.  That is the only way holohuggers can deal with the 
>truth -- delete
>>it.  
>>
>>        I am rather surprised it has not been done before.  

>I don't know about the others, but I wouldn't miss anything you say for 
>the world!  I'm currently compiling your various posts into a 
>screenplay.  Once it's completed, I shall ask PeeWee Herman to star as 
>Matt Giwer, as it is he who's best suited for the job.========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: dem bones again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:08:01 GMT

	You will recall from last time we has 2000 tons of bone fragments from
Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find.  That was based upon the
internet cremation society's statement of 5-7 pound of bone fragements
remaining after cremation and I used 5 pounds so as not to exaggerate
the number.

2-7-96 @ 
Q. Do you have standard requirements for an urn? Someone has asked me to
design and
fabricate two urns for he and his wife. I have no idea where to start.Do
you have design
specifications? 

A. In order to accomidate the cremated remains of an average size adult,
the urn should have a
capacity of at least 205 cubic inches. Beyond that requirement, any
shape, size and design is
acceptable and the only limitations is your imagination.

	Here we have the volume of this mass of bone fragments.

	This gives us roughly 3500 cubic yards of bone fragments to fine at
Treblinka and some 5200 cubic yards of them at Auschwitz.  This latter
is a cube 52 feet on a side.  On the other hand it would cover three
acres about one foot deep.  However there a convenient river there that
has never been probed.

	So back to Treblinka.  There we have a 45 foot cube.  Thus we have
enough to cover the five acres at Trblinka to a depth of 3.5 inches with
bone fragments.  But of course they were buried so at some point coring
would find a 3.5 inch thick layer of bone fragments.  

	But of course folks like Keren keep muttering about 27 foot deep core
fragments.  So let me address that for our applied mathematician.  The
false assumption is that 27 feet means anything.  He assumes that 27
feet means distributed over the 27 foot core.  The fallacy of that
assumption is that a 1000 foot core would not imply a 1000 distribution.


	If they were buried then there would be a distinct layer or layers of
these bone fragments.  

	For those of you who may have missed it, a core preserves the layers.
It does not randomize the contents of the entire core.  









From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:51 PDT 1996
Article: 55181 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mauving right along
Date: Fri, 02 Aug 1996 09:19:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 31 Jul 96 20:48:28, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Mauving right along] [Wed 31 Jul 96 05:16][Wed 31 Jul 96 14:05][0]*>


> mnc>     It is amazing that a pretend aculturated human being
> mnc> pretends that cyanide will not kill flies, maggots and the eggs.

>How do insect eggs breath, Matt?

	That is a question to which the answer is rather complex.  Rather than attempt
to answer it myself I refer you to any holohugger post explaining how or to a
text on the subject.  	

	Although insect eggs vary widely they are not like chicken eggs and do
metabolize the atmosphere in their development.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:52 PDT 1996
Article: 55185 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Hitler Praises Jews
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 08:09:34 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 2 Aug 1996 12:40:58 GMT, Robert@cartel.westfalen.de (Robert) wrote:

>rjg@d31rz0.Stanford.EDU (Richard J. Green) wrote:

>>In article <4tbu22$b78@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
>>Ehrlich606  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>The same Hitler who had issued ruthless orders for the execution of
>>>the Soviet commissars was by no means as hostile as Goebbels desired
>>>toward western Europe's more cultivated Jews.  He heard Hitler speak
>>>warmly of both the composer Gustav Mahler and the producer Max Reinhardt
>>>(Max Goldmann), and concede that in their performances the Jews were often
>>>*not bad.* p. 369
>>>
>>>Source: Irving, David, *Goebbels: Mastermind of the Third Reich* Focal
>>>Point: 1996;
>>>US Distributor: IHR, PO Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 Fx: 714 631 0981
>>>(copied from back flyleaf)
>>>
>>>COMMENT: definitely hard to believe, keyed to a Goebbel's Diary entry of
>>>12/22/1940.
>>>Max Reinhardt was _very_ important in the German theater: he co-founded
>>>the Salzburg Festival.

>>22 December 1940 (Sunday)

>>...

>>We discuss issues affecting the theatre.  The Fu"hrer is very
>>interested.  He explains such phenomena as Mahler or Max Reinhardt,
>>whose abilities and achievements he does not deny.  The Jew can 
>>often be  quite successful when it comes to mimicry.

>>_The Goebbel's Diaries 1939-1941_, translated by Fred Taylor, p. 214,
>>Putnam and Sons, New York (1983).

>>My Comment: Irving seems to interpret this comment as more complimentary
>>than would be expected.  Perhaps, Irving is a fan of mimicry.

>>Regards,

>>Rich Green 
>>-- 
>>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>Richard J. Green                                Dept. of Chemistry
>>rjg@lyman.Stanford.EDU                          Stanford University     
>>http://www-leland.Stanford.EDU/~redcloud        Stanford, CA 94305-5080
>>	"Remember the days of yore,
>>	"Learn the lessons of the generation that came before you."
>>		-Deuteronomy 32:7

>Hitler did fear the jews becaus he thought of them as serious enemies
>therefore he had a certain amount of "respect for them"..to call
>Goebbles the mastermind of Hitlers thinking and to state that he was
>more hatefilled that hitler is a  lot of crap..quite the contrary is
>true if anything..Goebbels had  an even more "scientific" approach
>towards anti-Semitism..(read his diaries where he said ..as he did
>openly as well..that ..if one would be just and anti-Semite for some
>"emotional reason" that would be a bad and and oudated thing to do..
>he according to the ideology of the Nazis said many times
>"I  am an anti-Semite because i am a SOCIALIST)...
>(and that is true..as many socialists..where and still are
>anti-Semites..)
>Greetings from Germany

	What is most interesting about the "it is all Hitler's fault" attitude is the
pretention that in some manner the Herr himself was in fact running every
aspect of his entire government.  It is like looking at the government today
and thinking that the Chancellor is making all of the decisions.  

	Even more interesting, in time of war where Hitler is "credited" with
personally directing the war effort that he really had waking moments for much
more than the war effort.  The last time I ran a war it took up most of my
time.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:53 PDT 1996
Article: 55187 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!nntp.teleport.com!news.reed.edu!camelot.ccs.neu.edu!nntp.neu.edu!grapevine.lcs.mit.edu!bone.think.com!blanket.mitre.org!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet2.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!usenet1.news.uk.psi.net!uknet!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 08:12:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 79
Message-ID: <4tv1ne$lsd@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>
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On 2 Aug 1996 09:00:26 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:

>On 8/1/96 at 13:31, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) 
>wrote: 

>>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>
>>:       Thank you lucky stars my father was released from the hospital 
>>:       yesterday.  And : he went in after your call.  
>>: 
>>:       There was a lot of luck in that one.  
>>: 
>>:       Before I forget, he had the first ulcer in his life.  
>>
>>Your father developed an ulcer (in two weeks, yet--a medical miracle!)
>>because somebody called him and asked for your phone number?  
>>
>>Sensitive chap.  Why do I think you're lying, Matt?
>>
>>Bill

>With Giwer for a son, he's every right to an ulcer.
========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: dem bones again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:08:01 GMT

	You will recall from last time we has 2000 tons of bone fragments from
Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find.  That was based upon the
internet cremation society's statement of 5-7 pound of bone fragements
remaining after cremation and I used 5 pounds so as not to exaggerate
the number.

2-7-96 @ 
Q. Do you have standard requirements for an urn? Someone has asked me to
design and
fabricate two urns for he and his wife. I have no idea where to start.Do
you have design
specifications? 

A. In order to accomidate the cremated remains of an average size adult,
the urn should have a
capacity of at least 205 cubic inches. Beyond that requirement, any
shape, size and design is
acceptable and the only limitations is your imagination.

	Here we have the volume of this mass of bone fragments.

	This gives us roughly 3500 cubic yards of bone fragments to fine at
Treblinka and some 5200 cubic yards of them at Auschwitz.  This latter
is a cube 52 feet on a side.  On the other hand it would cover three
acres about one foot deep.  However there a convenient river there that
has never been probed.

	So back to Treblinka.  There we have a 45 foot cube.  Thus we have
enough to cover the five acres at Trblinka to a depth of 3.5 inches with
bone fragments.  But of course they were buried so at some point coring
would find a 3.5 inch thick layer of bone fragments.  

	But of course folks like Keren keep muttering about 27 foot deep core
fragments.  So let me address that for our applied mathematician.  The
false assumption is that 27 feet means anything.  He assumes that 27
feet means distributed over the 27 foot core.  The fallacy of that
assumption is that a 1000 foot core would not imply a 1000 distribution.


	If they were buried then there would be a distinct layer or layers of
these bone fragments.  

	For those of you who may have missed it, a core preserves the layers.
It does not randomize the contents of the entire core.  









From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:54 PDT 1996
Article: 55191 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!inter2.interstice.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!nntp.primenet.com!news.fibr.net!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 08:17:16 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 85
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On 2 Aug 1996 15:13:19 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:

>On 8/1/96 at 13:31, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) 
>wrote: 

>>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:
>>
>>:       Thank you lucky stars my father was released from the hospital 
>>:       yesterday.  And : he went in after your call.  
>>: 
>>:       There was a lot of luck in that one.  
>>: 
>>:       Before I forget, he had the first ulcer in his life.  
>>
>>Your father developed an ulcer (in two weeks, yet--a medical miracle!)
>>because somebody called him and asked for your phone number?  
>>
>>Sensitive chap.  Why do I think you're lying, Matt?
>>
>>Bill

>With Giwer for a son, he's every right to an ulcer.

>Termy aka Gary


>Sent with an evaluation copy of Cindy's Newsmailer v1.1.

========
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: dem bones again
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 04:08:01 GMT

	You will recall from last time we has 2000 tons of bone fragments from
Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find.  That was based upon the
internet cremation society's statement of 5-7 pound of bone fragements
remaining after cremation and I used 5 pounds so as not to exaggerate
the number.

2-7-96 @ 
Q. Do you have standard requirements for an urn? Someone has asked me to
design and
fabricate two urns for he and his wife. I have no idea where to start.Do
you have design
specifications? 

A. In order to accomidate the cremated remains of an average size adult,
the urn should have a
capacity of at least 205 cubic inches. Beyond that requirement, any
shape, size and design is
acceptable and the only limitations is your imagination.

	Here we have the volume of this mass of bone fragments.

	This gives us roughly 3500 cubic yards of bone fragments to fine at
Treblinka and some 5200 cubic yards of them at Auschwitz.  This latter
is a cube 52 feet on a side.  On the other hand it would cover three
acres about one foot deep.  However there a convenient river there that
has never been probed.

	So back to Treblinka.  There we have a 45 foot cube.  Thus we have
enough to cover the five acres at Trblinka to a depth of 3.5 inches with
bone fragments.  But of course they were buried so at some point coring
would find a 3.5 inch thick layer of bone fragments.  

	But of course folks like Keren keep muttering about 27 foot deep core
fragments.  So let me address that for our applied mathematician.  The
false assumption is that 27 feet means anything.  He assumes that 27
feet means distributed over the 27 foot core.  The fallacy of that
assumption is that a 1000 foot core would not imply a 1000 distribution.


	If they were buried then there would be a distinct layer or layers of
these bone fragments.  

	For those of you who may have missed it, a core preserves the layers.
It does not randomize the contents of the entire core.  









From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:54 PDT 1996
Article: 55198 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.insinc.net!news2.insinc.net!news.solect.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!mr.net!news.sgi.com!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: ethnic groups
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 06:46:57 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 61
Message-ID: <4tusng$bk1@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
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On Wed, 31 Jul 96 19:09:59 GMT, Alexander Baron 
wrote:

>In article <4tm0fg$g7v@news.enter.net> yawen@enter.net "Yale F. Edeiken" writes:

>>         I have tried two forfeiture cases.

>As a defence attorney I hope. 

>> 
>>         I do not like most of the forfeiture law because of what it does to the > adminstration of justice.  Our local D.A.s run not on the quality of their
>>  trial work or 
>> their administration of the justice system but on how much money they make 
>> through confiscations.  However, if the phamphlet to which you refer states
>>  that 
>> this is a possible scenario I suggest you locate "In re Shorty's Cafe." 

>Which is what?

>> The
>>  law 
>> does not (at this moment) work in the manner you suggest.
>> 
>>         Read the law. Al, and the cases that apply it.

>I've come across a few horrifying cases, and the law is partially here, as
>far as drugs is concerned. The right of silence has been sort of abolished;
>courts are now permitted to draw inferences from silence. Check out Wollstein.
>The way I read civil asset forfeiture and some of the other legislation that
>has gone through recently is that the US Government now has a means of 
>terrorising any individual or group - ethnic or otherwise - in a totally 
>arbitrary manner. As Wollstein says, if a fist fight breaks out on a union
>premises, the entire assets of the union can be seized. People have lost their
>homes because a small amount of cannabis has been found on their premises,
>which may not be connected to them. If that's not tyranny, what is?

	The amusing thing about the US law is not that it can confiscate the property
(or cash) that arose from the crime but rather that property that was at one
time owned by a drug dealer can be confiscated from an innocent present owner.


	If you do not mind a hypothethical case.  A drug dealer takes a million in
drug profits and buys a home.  But he his a bit off balance so he changes
homes every six months, selling and buying each time.  Further he is not very
bright when it comes to real estage and always sells for his purchase price.
He does this for ten years before being caught.
	
	20 houses can be confiscated.  And if had just sold but not bought at the time
of arrest, the million dollars would be confiscated also.  

	And the worst of it is that it has been effectively approved by our Supreme
Court.  

	This may appear extreme to the point of ridiculous but then a single property
was taken from the present owner because three owners back it was bought wtih
drug money.  Obviously since it was sold the dealer recovered his money, both
the property and the money were not both his assets at the time off
confiscation.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:55 PDT 1996
Article: 55208 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ole'!
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 09:34:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 34
Message-ID: <4tv6ha$k1v@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>
References: <4tt5qh$sbp@news.iglobal.net>
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On 2 Aug 1996 15:11:13 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote:


>On Tue, 01 Aug 1996 09:02:18 +0100, olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) 
>wrote: 

>>In article <4tohis$4qo@nz12.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de>, Sven Noltemeier wrote:
>>>
>>>So you think it is okay to humiliate your grandparents and their family,
>>>including you, after the state has murdered them and been spelling hatred
>>>against you and your kind, by denying that this has happened, or that your
>>>grandparents did not even live, and that your anger and grief is all pro-
>>>paganda.
>>>
>>My father and grandfather died both of cancer. If somebody claimed that
>>they died in a traffic accident would I then be humiliated?  Even if I 
>>became annoyed I would never regard it a crime.
>>
>>>The denial of the Shoah is a special, and very grave, case of crimes against
>>>the honour of the dead.
>>>
>> It has absolutely nothing to with crime. I do not feel that I have any 
>>obligation to honour any dead. Furthermore I am not Jewish or German and
>>therefore do not identify me with these events.

>"I do not feel that I have any obligation to honour any dead."

>Kewl!  Where are your ancestors buried?  Someone 'round here may wish 
>to piss on their graves.  SURELY you have no objection...

	You mean no one can piss in the Vistula?  A capitial offense or simply a
misdemeanor?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:56 PDT 1996
Article: 55209 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: L.A. Times & Auschwitz 4,000,000 & the Internet
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 09:38:32 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
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On 2 Aug 1996 15:34:02 -0400, historynot@aol.com (HistoryNOT) wrote:

>L.A. Times & Auschwitz 4,000,000 & the Internet

>BACKGROUND: In April 1994, the Houston Chronicle (a Hearst Paper)
>reported that WASPs had been deceived by Polak Commies all these years
>about the Auschwitz 4,000,000 - about the same time ordinary people gained
>access to the Internet via aol, CompuServe, prodigy, netcom, etc.

>Curious about how our smartest intellectuals could have been deceived by
>dumb, uneducated, few brain cells Polaks (Ann Landers & Mike Royko
>wrote that Polish people preferred to be called Polaks - not to be
>confused
>with  Polacks  which is the WASP pejorative form) the  Where did the
>Auschwitz 4,000,000 figure come from  question was presented to the many
>brain cell individuals in history usenet groups.

>Over a year has passed and not one Internet professor has had anything to
>offer - despite claims of great brain capacity -  other than to call the
>question
> crazy  and the questioner among other things  a La Rouche 

>ANSWER: The Los Angeles Times Wednesday Morning, July 30, 1975 with
>a front page picture of President Ford at Auschwitz accompanied by the
>caption -  HOMAGE - President Ford places a wreath at monument at
>Auschwitz, Poland, where 4 million Jews died. It was the first visit by an
>American President to any of the Nazi death camps. 

	Homage?  To what?  Was it voluntary?  

	These were a bunch of "gas me don't shoot me" wimps.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:57 PDT 1996
Article: 55221 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.mathworks.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.polish,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.clinton,alt.activism,soc.culture.african.american,alt.2600,alt.atheism,alt.christnet,alt.skinheads,uk.politics,soc.culture.canada,alt.censorship.canada.dumb,za.politics,soc.culture.asian.american,misc.immigration,alt.personals.intercultural,soc.couples.intercultural
Subject: Re: Racists in Georgia
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 20:44:09 GMT
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On Thu, 01 Aug 1996 06:21:36 GMT, meirman@erols.com wrote:

>In soc.culture.jewish on Mon, 29 Jul 1996 08:14:44 GMT
>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) posted:

>>On Sun, 28 Jul 1996 04:09:41 UTC, an572010@anon.penet.fi (Vyshinsky) wrote:

>>>kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca writes:


>>	Speaking of racists, the Olympic bombing suspect has been identified as a
>>white American male based upon a phone call.  Presuming it was not a
>>picturephone just for the Olympics, the only thing they had to go on was
>>voice.  
>I  believe they said he sounded like a white american, not that he was
>one. It is important to notice these differences. They said he had no
>regional accent.   Do you think that is impossible to know also.

	If there were "no regional accent" that would exonerate the current favorite
suspect.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:58 PDT 1996
Article: 55236 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,soc.culture.jewish,soc.culture.israel,soc.culture.polish,alt.revisionism,alt.fan.ernst-zundel,talk.politics.guns,alt.politics.clinton,alt.activism,soc.culture.african.american,alt.2600,alt.atheism,alt.christnet,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Turner Diaries Now Out From Barricade Books
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 20:43:48 GMT
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On Thu, 01 Aug 1996 15:14:24 GMT, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>	And in the process to repeal more of the Bill of Rights.  But what the hell,
>>it will be in a good cause.  

>And you'll get to spew more of your vile filth.  Wunnerful.

	Good ideas drive out bad.  You are in the marketplace of ideas.  

	Your only basis for demanding censorship is that you can not compete.  

	Or is this too obvious for you?   




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:58 PDT 1996
Article: 55237 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!ames!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 20:44:05 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On 1 Aug 1996 13:31:20 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson)
wrote:

>Matt  Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote:

>: 	Thank you lucky stars my father was released from the hospital 
>:       yesterday.  And : he went in after your call.  
>: 
>: 	There was a lot of luck in that one.  
>: 
>: 	Before I forget, he had the first ulcer in his life.  

>Your father developed an ulcer (in two weeks, yet--a medical miracle!)
>because somebody called him and asked for your phone number?  

>Sensitive chap.  Why do I think you're lying, Matt?

	Because you did not talk to him after the tube went down his throat to take a
look at it.  Is that clear enough?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:46:59 PDT 1996
Article: 55256 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 20:43:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-10.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 03  3:45:07 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 16:34:46 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>>         They archive it without permission.  If a complete archive were maintained of
>> complete threads, all sides of all discussions, that would be a different
>> matter entirely.  However, using the posts of others without their permission
>> is something that at least Compuserve holds to be impermssiable.

>1. This newsgroup is not called "MINE. MINE. MINE.", Matt. It's called a
>NEWSGROUP!!

>It is a BROADCAST mechanism.

>It is a PUBLIC DOMAIN broadcast mechanism.

>2. If Compuserve says don't - let them stuff it where the sun don't
>shine. They have no say for anybody who is not a member.    

	Rather ask after their legal reason for it.  

>No, Matt - you're stuck.

>Nizkor will keep your postings. 

	It is good to see you are speaking for Nizkor.  Why?  

>Your complaints are worth zero. 

	You legal opinion?  

>You should make sure to quote enough and keep any messages that you
>reply to to assure that you don't suffer from lack of context.

>BTW - with your selective quoting, I wouldn't worry about the loss of
>context making you look bad. It makes you look *BETTER*!!

	Your legal opinion?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:47:00 PDT 1996
Article: 55257 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: TWA Flt 800
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 20:44:01 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 17:53:08 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>         The correct analogy is that since the reports of the gassing are incredible
>> therefore that does not explain the means of death.

>We're still waiting for your proof, Matt.

	Even a truly backwater engineer should know that proof is for math, not
science.  You are truly taking a position that would lose you a bid should you
really want it.  
 
>>         As I have pointed out many times, it is rather difficult to explain how so
>> many survived with all the diseases running loose.

>Proof, Matt. Please prove your assertions.

	Proof?  Is this math?  

>After all, if you want to make assertions without any proof but the
>statement itself, repeated dozens of times, I can out-repeat you any day
>and simply make comments about your personal habits - the way Dahlman
>always does!

>Let's get some proof on the table, Matt.

>You assert, you prove.

>Oh, yes!

>If you do not answer in a reasonable time-frame, your silence will be
>taken as an admission that you were wrong and will be used in the future
>as such. There ain't no 5th amendment here, Matt.

	It is quite amazing that an expected experienced person would be expecting
proof in a field outside of mathematics.  What was it that was lacking in your
education missing in your decades of experience?   





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:47:01 PDT 1996
Article: 55258 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!fury.berkshire.net!news.albany.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-10.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!new-news.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-chi-8.sprintlink.net!news.inc.net!newspump.sol.net!news.mindspring.com!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!swrinde!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Lets desigm a mass extermination gas chamber
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 20:43:41 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 03  3:44:56 PM CDT 1996
X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On 31 Jul 96 20:40:04, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[Holocaust revisionism] [Wed 31 Jul 96 05:13][Wed 31 Jul 96 14:05][0]*>

> >> GIWERISM ALERT!!

> >> Sorry Matt - you blew it again and coverups or zig zags are not
> >> allowed.

> >> The gas chambers were heated by the equivalent of a few hundred
> >> incandescent light bulbs - known as human beings.

> mnc>     As an engineer you know better than that regarding the
> mnc> introduction of Polish winter air.

>As a CANADIAN, in a climate as least as cold as Poland at its worst,
>I can and will say that the body heat of the victims was more than
>adequate.

>Go to Montreal, Matt. Go to Place Bonaventure Hotel and use their
>pool when the temperature is 10 below Farenheit. You will feel no
>chill, yet the pool area is entirely open at the top to the winter
>air and is not as heavily heated as you might think at first. BTW -
>the sides were merely a simple double-pane glass.

>Simple and straightforward - there was more than enough heat
>generated by the bodies of the victims.

>Any engineer would know that, Matt.

	And as an engineer you know that bodies as heat exchangers are really shit.
You know the design factors for heat exchangers and were the air input from
the floors through the bodies you know it might have a chance of working.  

	But you know the ventilation system has to replace air faster than turbulent
mixing which is much faster than convection from the bodies can replace.  

	You do know this.  You would certainly design this differently even as a first
cut.  And then, you would know that you needed a ventilation system for LK
IIII and IV but this is none, even in the dead of Poland's winter.  

	But then you, knowing engineering, have not begun to address any of these
issues.  You are playing as ignorant as the holohuggers.  

	How about this.  Lets you and I design a mass extermination gas chamber as
competing bidders on the same project.  

	But first the bid package. 

	1)  Must be able to exterminate 3000 per hour without giving indication to the
next 3000 in line for extermination.   

	2)  When in doubt refer to 1).

	Agreed?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:47:01 PDT 1996
Article: 55260 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Silence You Almost Can Hear
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 06:06:21 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4u1ena$4ab@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>
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On Fri, 02 Aug 1996 11:42:54 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> > mnc>     His supporters have posted his own statements exactly to
>> > mnc> that effect.  You might take the time to read them.
>> 
>> >I have seen nothing to the effect that Ken excludes Canada from
>> >Zundel's right to free speech.
>> 
>>         Why is what you have seen of interest?

>Because it is of interest to all parties concerned - ME.

>I was responding with a challenge, Matt. If you have seen anything to
>contradict my statement present proof of your assertions - or admit to
>losing once again.

	To repeat, McVay supports Zundel's right to free speech but wants him
out of Canada for what he speaks.  

	And it is about time you get over the idea that there are winners and
losers in public debate.  The lurkers are the audience.  
 
>>         Why is it that you will not go back to the failure of any relationship to
>> witness reports of gassing to the effects of gassing?  Why does an engineer,
>> who can shed such great light upon this manner, REFUSE to disucss this matter
>> which is the one under discussion?

>Why should I contradict what I know is fact?

	How do you know it is fact?  Were you imbued with the knowledge?  

	Have you ever wondered how you had to learn engineering the hard way
but were born knowing all about this matter?  

>I've already responded to this.

>You lost.

>Repetition does not make you a winner, Matt.

	There are no winners or losers.  There are only lurkers.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:47:02 PDT 1996
Article: 55261 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 06:36:37 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 04  1:37:56 AM CDT 1996
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:81631 alt.revisionism:55261 talk.politics.european-union:5275

On Sat, 03 Aug 1996 07:49:36 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4tv34p$81q@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:


>>         Actually he is bringing up a "temple myth" that there was ever a
>quota system
>> of any interest in any American University.  They have always existed but they
>> have been for "other" purposes, largely pious frauds as was the recently
>> killed racial quotas.  
>> 
>>         Quotas by religion certainly existed but they were are
>institutions that had a
>> religious orientation at the time, Harvard as an example.  No quota was
>> against Jews any more than it was against any other religion.  I mix was
>> sought and it was obtained.  There were even Indians in most of the quota
>> mixes. 

>Mr. Giwer:
> 
>You are a liar. 

	Why thank you.   

There were many Anerican colleges and universities that
>had quotas for Jews.

	And for Christians and for Indians.  That is what I said.  

>>         If you read of a synagogue with swastikas painted on it, odds
>are it is Jewish
>> teenagers.  Maybe they are getting tired of the crap.  
> 
>Mr. Giwer, you are a liar.

	Thank you again, Schwartze.  
 
>Please point out the "odds" as you have determined them. I'd like to see
>specific cases and examples, please.

	As you know, specific cases can not support statistics.  

>>         It was a pressure group and we had a wimp as a president at the
>time, Jimmy
>> Carter.  Carter had the ability to cave at the slightest suggestion of moral
>> indignation.  He was a born again, nutcase who saw flying saucers and was
>> attacked by a killer rabbit.  And those were his good points.  He was only
>> elected because of Nixon and Watergate.  

>Mr. Giwer, you are a liar.

	Again, so many compliments from you it become embarrassing.  
 
>Jimmy Carter was elected because he got the most votes.

	You are very simple minded.  It explains a lot.  

	And you have the tits to post in public.  

	Quite amazing.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 07:47:03 PDT 1996
Article: 55278 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Ole'!
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 07:13:43 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Message-ID: <4u1ilm$9qt@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com>
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X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 04 12:15:02 AM PDT 1996
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On Sat, 03 Aug 1996 21:54:28 -0600, patchwgl@infinop.com wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>[snip]
>> >>>
>> >> It has absolutely nothing to with crime. I do not feel that I have any
>> >>obligation to honour any dead. Furthermore I am not Jewish or German and
>> >>therefore do not identify me with these events.
>> 
>> >"I do not feel that I have any obligation to honour any dead."
>> 
>> >Kewl!  Where are your ancestors buried?  Someone 'round here may wish
>> >to piss on their graves.  SURELY you have no objection...
>> 
>>         You mean no one can piss in the Vistula?  A capitial offense or simply a
>> misdemeanor?

>No, you pathetic little frustrated wanker, that's not what I meant.  Try
>again, without quite so many unwarranted leaps.  

>Speaking of unwarranted leaps, your "credibility" would be increased by
>several hundred percent if you'd limits such leaps to one per post, one
>per assertion.

>On the other hand, increasing zero by several hundred percent still
>leaves zero.

>Gary aka Termy

	With Termys like you who can not judge for lack of experience or
ability, what does it matter?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 08:12:06 PDT 1996
Article: 33889 of alt.skinheads
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!news-feed-1.peachnet.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.good-morning,alt.flame,aus.flame.usa,alt.skinheads,alt.drunken.bastards,rec.drugs,soc.culture.malaysia,alt.nuke.the.USA
Subject: Re: Bollocks
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 04:02:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 33
Message-ID: <4u17fq$sii@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>
References: <839026683snz@altairiv.demon.co.uk>
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On Fri, 02 Aug 96 22:58:03 GMT, Andrew/ 
wrote:


>The FAQ has now moved to a new URL. 

>http://www.altairiv.demon.co.uk/antU.html

>Features: 
>	Illegal Links! Break US Law on-line!

	Its a frigging faq.  Where to you hide the law breaking?  

>	On-line Voting!
>	See Hilary Klinton mocked!

	Is that all?  

>	Become a Defector in FOUR easy lessons!
>	Official Policy Statement from the Politburo!
>	The tediousness of alt.(f)lame exposed!
>	

>		*********** ADVERTISMENT: *************	

>	After visiting this site why not dine at the Texas RoadKill
>	Cafe? "You kill 'em, We grill 'em"
>		
>		***************************************	

	That's an Aggie joke.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:19 PDT 1996
Article: 55287 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 06:49:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-11.ix.netcom.com
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Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:38136 alt.politics.nationalism.white:26719 alt.revisionism:55287 alt.skinheads:33899

On Fri, 02 Aug 1996 11:37:52 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> >Secondly there is the fact that Nizkor does not distribute your garbage -
>> >they archive it without remuneration.
>> 
>>         Without permission, counselor.  In which state are you licensed to practice?

>Fair use, Matt.

	Execuse me, since when is fair use consider everything?  Or is it the
effect of the cold on the english speaking Canadian brain that can not
comprehend this matter?  

>I got *THAT* a long time ago from somebody licenced to appear before the
>"Queen's Bench" - AKA all of Canada - and is qualified in the US too.

>Patents, Licenses and Copyrights are the life-blood of many industries,
>Matt.

	Thank you for your Canadian legal advice.   If anyone is truly stupid
enough to follow your advice it would be interesting to see what
happens if they point to it in a moment of stress.  

>> >Thirdly, people who repost your crap to the Usenet are doing so in the
>> >context of a reply to you, and so are likely protected under the fair use
>> >provisions inherent in copyright law.
>> 
>>         Said context being removed by Nizkor.  Are you really practicing law?
>> 

>A contention that you'd have to prove, Matt.

>The only context that is needed is in the very headers of every message. 

>Only in the case of a libel suit would any other context be needed, such
>as the message that you are purportedly responding to.

>Again - a context that you'd have to prove was missing.

>> >Fourthly there exists DejaNews, Alta Vista, and other archiving mechanisms
>> >on the Internet, of which you are aware, and you allow them to archive and
>> >distribute your junk without any special agreement.
>> 
>>         That is up to their lawyers.
>> 
>>         Ask after the lawyers at CI$.

>The lawyers at CIS are inconsequential. The claims of CIS are worthless,
>since they are not Congress or Parliament.

	Parliament does not apply in the US and never will.  We are armed.  

	But you really should look after their reasons simply for your own
education.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:21 PDT 1996
Article: 55290 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 06:44:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-11.ix.netcom.com
X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 04  1:45:45 AM CDT 1996
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On Sat, 03 Aug 1996 18:11:55 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav
Bilik) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>	Perhaps when there a translation of the complete document available there will
>>be something to ignore.  But as you were concealing the other document which
>>said wood pulp while claiming it supported you there is nothing we can take
>>upon your word for the contents at this point.  

>We have now five good reasons to say that no gassings occured:

>1/ you said that the carrier was kitter litter, no silica gel, and
>that kitter litter was red-brown, so the witnesses describing
>blue-mauve pellets were wrong.

>2/ you said that silica gel is white, so the witnesses describing
>blue-mauve pellets were wrong.

>3/ you said that the releasing rate of silica gel was too slow, so the
>witnesses describing blue-mauve pellets were wrong.

>4/ you said that blue is not mauve, so the witnesses describing
>blue-mauve pellets were wrong.

>5/ you say now that the carrier was wood pulp (please document it for
>Zyklon-B specifically, no another kinds of Zyklon), so the witnesses
>describing blue-mauve pellets were wrong.

>It sounds like the old freudian joke about the cauldron: "I never
>borrowed it; the cauldron was soon damaged; I brought back the
>cauldron and it was not damaged at this time".

	I have an even better reason to ignore you.  I never said 1), 2), or
3) so whoever you are talking about is not me. 

	Pay attention to the NG or don't jump in and waste bandwidth.    






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:22 PDT 1996
Article: 55291 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 05:53:07 GMT
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On Sat, 03 Aug 1996 22:45:18 -0600, patchwgl@infinop.com wrote:

>Alec Grynspan wrote:
>> 
>> <*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
>> <+[listen up, Alec G.] [Sat 03 Aug 96 03:50][Sat 03 Aug 96 05:03][0]*>
>> 
>>  mnc>     You will recall from last time we has 2000 tons of bone
>>  mnc> fragments from Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find.
>>  mnc> That was based upon the internet cremation society's statement
>>  mnc> of 5-7 pound of bone fragements remaining after cremation and I
>>  mnc> used 5 pounds so as not to exaggerate the number.
>> 
>> Matt, we've been here.
>> 
>> You already lost the argument. You've set up a straw man and knocked
>> it down. Whoopie!
>> 
>> Then your contnetion was knocked down so thoroughly that it no
>> longer comes close.
>> 
>> Using the records of dumping in the nearby river and the
>> calcualtions of a professional we quickly arrive at the ability of
>> eliminating the remains of 50 times the total number murdered - let
>> alone the number murdered in the extermination camps.
>> 
>> So you restate the old argument.
>> 
>> Repeating seems to be all that you have left.
>> 
>> You are sticking your fingers in your ears, squinching your eyes
>> closed and yelling "IS TOO! IS TOO!"
>> 
>> Grow up, Matt!
>> 
>> Provide evidence for your contentions or admit that they go nowhere,
>> fast.
>> 

>  The following message (c) 1992 G. R. Raper, Jr. which is when I
>first posted it on GEnie.  Note that I don't even mention the Vistula,
>yet manage pretty thoroughly to debunk this particular denier myth. 
>Matt, you paying attention?  Should I email this to you?  

>In Message #167, Hans-Peter writes:
>  
>"1)  Cremation leaves a residue of between 1 to 2 kg of mineral ash. The
>remains of 1.5 million people would be a minimum of 1.5 million
>kilograms of
>ash or 1500 tonnes, occupying a volume of 800 m^3, a fairly considerable
>mountain. This has never been found at the site."
>  
>   
>Whew, that sounds pretty awesome, doesn't it?  800 cubic meters is a lot
>of ash!
>   
>Or...is it?
>   
>Let's look at it from another perspective, by breaking the numbers down
>into more 
>usable chunks and applying them to common objects.
>  
>800 cubic meters.  That's a box 8 m. x 10 m. x 10 m., or, to put it
>another way, 
>mark out a square on the ground that is 10 m. on a side.  stack 1 cubic
>meter boxes 
>within that square to a height of 8 m., and you'll have 800 boxes.
>   
>Still sounds pretty impressive, doesn't it?  After all, that's a square
>about 33 feet 
>on a side, and the boxes rise over 25 feet in the air.
>  
>Pretty big, isn't it?  Let's do a little more simple math, mostly
>multiplication and 
>division, and see just a bit more clearly what we're talking about.
> 
>A football field is 100 yds.  Let's snitch a little from the endzones
>and make it an 
>even 100 meters.  It's 50 yards wide...add the broad white stripes found
>on 
>professional and college fields to make it an even 50 meters.
>  
>100 m. x 50 m = 5000 square meters.
>  
>Let's take that 800 cubic meters of ash and spread it out over 5000 sq.
>meters:
>  
>800 m^3 / 5000 m^2 = .16 m.
>  
>Translating that to words, if you take that 800 cubic meters and spread
>them over 
>a football field (plus a smidgin), they'll be .16 meters deep.  
>  
>16 centimeters = .16 meter, and there're 2.54 cm to the inch, so:  
>  
>16 cm / 2.54 = 6.2999 inches
>  
>Suddenly, our 800 m^3 mountain seems less peakish than peckish.
>  
>Another way of looking at it is to look at the size of a common freeway
>underpass, 
>where the roadway going underneath was excavated.  Chances are, a little
>simple 
>eyeball measuring will show that it's at least a hundred yards long, and
>the depth 
>will reach as much as 20 or 30 feet.
>  
>Compare that to a small-sized ravine in hilly country.  Suddenly, the
>question isn't 
>"WHERE did they hide the ashes?" but "Where DID they hide the ashes?"
>  
>So, when next you run across a Holocaust revisionist who brings this
>point up, you 
>will have the knowledge needed to show where he errs.  Though the entire 
>discussion is somewhat gruesome, there is a hidden beauty, within the
>numbers:  
>you can allow him to double, even treble the cubic meters required to
>contain the 
>ash, and the "mountain" really grows very little; all you need do is add
>another 
>football field or two, or another ravine or two.  With a whole
>countryside to work 
>in, the Nazis doubtless had any trouble finding ravines or shallow
>depressions 
>which "needed filling".

	First off your basic numbers are at odds with people who know
something about cremation.  Again, the internet cremation society for
openers.  

	Second you have not thought through the mechanics of dumping the 1 cm
sieve "ashes" into the local lakes (without flow) and the river.  (Not
to mention using them on icy walkways and the like.)  

	Third you have not addressed the ashes, clinkers and such, from the
coke itself, given that it starts at 70 kg per body it should
certainly have ashes on the same order as the "human" ashes thus
doubling the real amount that are there to be found.  

	And after these obvious points you have missed the main point, no
ashes have been reported found by any "investigator."  

	Now it is clear that there were deaths from disease and they were
cremated it is interesting that not even the coke ashes have been
reported having been found.  Of course that means no one is looking.

	It has been interesting to see so many people running down the road of
claiming the human "ashes" can not be found when in fact no one has
been looking for any ashes of any kind.  

	Remember some day the following true statement.  There has been
exactly one examination that even mimics forensics and another one
that is a professional embarrassment by an organization that can not
be ascertained to even exist.  

	LOOKING FOR the ashes would be elementary to a forensic investigation.


	But as reality would have it the fact is that any such investigation
would be challenged as being questioning the unquestionable.  Further
what would be the value of any such investigation when reporting a
negative result in personal attacks and professional villification.  

	Rather more interesting is what has happened.  Primarily writers, but
a few historians and one pharmacist have written about it (and if
lucky having visited at least once what they are writing about) to
ascertain the details of HOW a given conclusion happened rather than
WHAT happened.  

	As you should expect, it gets worse than this but enough for now.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:23 PDT 1996
Article: 55293 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 07:01:25 GMT
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On Sat, 03 Aug 1996 16:36:01 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote:

>In article <4tv1vd$lsd@dfw-ixnews2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com
>(Matt  Giwer) wrote:

>>         These holohuggers are deliberatedly doing in order to create an
>"abuse" claim
>> against those they want to lose access to the internet.  It is an old game.  
>> 
>>         What needs to be done is not to delete the inappropriate
>conferences but to
>> post is doing it to the conferences.  I have one example who even cancelled
>> the message where he started it in hopes it could not be traced to him.
>> Fortunately it was still on my disk.  
> 
>Nice to see that your ability to communicate is still as horrendous as
>always, Mr. Giwer.


	As you are admitting you can not understand what I am saying, to what
do you think you are replying?  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:24 PDT 1996
Article: 55303 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 06:23:26 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 02 Aug 1996 11:08:21 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

On 31 Jul 1996 12:28:17 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein)
wrote:

>In article <4tn807$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>On Tue, 30 Jul 1996 10:18:35 -0400, Alec Grynspan  wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Giwer wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>Incinerated hair was found?  By what miracle do you propose this occurred?
>>
>>>Matt opens mouth.
>>
>>>Matt inserts foot.
>>
>>>Matt kicks.
>>
>>>Matt claims conspiracy.
>>
>>>Trya  again, Matt. If the PARTIALLY-BURNT remains of the last firing of
>>>a Krema were not disturbed, it would be easy to distinguish the hair.
>>
>>>Years ago, when I smoked a pipe and used an unusual tobacco blend, some
>>>of the folks at the club decided to stick a clump of hair into my
>>>tobacco. 
>>
>>>It stank, of course, but when I knocked the ashes out of my pipe, the
>>>hair was clearly recognizable.
>>
>>This is fansinating.  The MOST flammable part of the human body remains after
>>the rest of the body is partially burned.

>    Suppose the body were at the periphery of the pyre, head out.
 
>>         Then the rarity of the find, in combination with the common findings would
>> tend to support the case but only AFTER major excavations.  But note that Alec
>> is leaving you hanging on this one as he knows better.
 
>But!

>1. It was the last "run", done in haste, as the Russians approached -
>thus it is possible that the burn was incomplete.

	Holohuggers say that all gassing was stopped months before the
Russians showed up.  So we are only discussing cremation, not gassing.
So if that is the answer, it has nothing to do with gassing, only
getting rid of the the dead for obvious sanitation reasons.  

>2. I left no one hanging. Flammability does not mean no residue. These
>were remains in the ovens, so they would not have been disturbed after
>burning.

	Hair means hair.  Burnd hair means burnt hair.  As you have certainly
seen many examples of that in your life.  You wuold certainly be most
interested in the chemical analysis that determined its existence.
You certainly would not have simply accepted either hair or hair ashes
on face value without quite a bit of backup.  

>Yes, I do know better - than you.

>But you knew that.

	Of course, you worked like hell to learn engineering but you were born
with a knowledge of the truth of the holocaust.  That means you were
born with the knowledge of steaming, electrocution and suffocation.
But you simply forgot about those IMT established methods over the
years.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:25 PDT 1996
Article: 55306 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 06:37:50 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Fri, 02 Aug 1996 11:11:42 -0400, Alec Grynspan 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> 
>>         Alec is leaving you hanging again.  You are usefull to him.  Keep it up.

>False again, Matt. I *SAID* that I was busy, didn't I?

	AFTER you said you were busy your posts tripled at least.  

>Further, I saw Mike's message and saw no reason to refute it.
>Particularly since he challenged you to *PROPERLY* counter my message or
>else admit defeat.




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:26 PDT 1996
Article: 55312 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G.
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 04:36:04 GMT
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On 03 Aug 96 11:20:56, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote:

><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +>
><+[listen up, Alec G.] [Sat 03 Aug 96 03:50][Sat 03 Aug 96 05:03][0]*>

> mnc>     You will recall from last time we has 2000 tons of bone
> mnc> fragments from Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find.
> mnc> That was based upon the internet cremation society's statement
> mnc> of 5-7 pound of bone fragements remaining after cremation and I
> mnc> used 5 pounds so as not to exaggerate the number.

>Matt, we've been here.

>You already lost the argument. You've set up a straw man and knocked
>it down. Whoopie!

>Then your contnetion was knocked down so thoroughly that it no
>longer comes close.

>Using the records of dumping in the nearby river and the
>calcualtions of a professional we quickly arrive at the ability of
>eliminating the remains of 50 times the total number murdered - let
>alone the number murdered in the extermination camps.

>So you restate the old argument.

>Repeating seems to be all that you have left.

>You are sticking your fingers in your ears, squinching your eyes
>closed and yelling "IS TOO! IS TOO!"

>Grow up, Matt!

>Provide evidence for your contentions or admit that they go nowhere,
>fast.

	All that time I thought you were merely playing games with Dahlman.
It appears now that this is all you ever had.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:27 PDT 1996
Article: 55314 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th
Date: Sat, 03 Aug 1996 20:43:56 GMT
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On 1 Aug 1996 22:07:14 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote:

>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer) writes:
>>	Do you really wish to continue to advertise the conspiratorital libel
>>of Nizkor?  

>	Threatening to sue again, Prince Myshkin?
	
	It that is truly a quesion, only a real idiot could inger it


>	Derek
>-- 
>Derek Bell  dbell@maths.tcd.ie  WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html
>           Assassination is the extreme form of censorship.
>                    George Bernard Shaw (1856-1960)
>                       _The Rejected Statement_




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:28 PDT 1996
Article: 55335 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...)
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 1996 23:31:37 GMT
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On 25 Jul 1996 12:26:14 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
wrote:

>In article <4t7aon$6cd@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>,
>Matt  Giwer  wrote:
>>On 25 Jul 1996 05:56:31 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote:
>>This 
>>>statement is a clear admission of defamation even under the standards of NYT 
>>>v. Sullivan.  And, of course, you used what you knew to be a false charge in an 
>>>attempt to intimidate someone.
>>
>>	Really?  Is there anyone who would hire you after this post?

>    You should be more worried about whether anyone would hire you.  You
>say you do not need a job now.  But do you have psychic powers that you
>know what the future will bring?

	It is not a likely thing to happen.  I may want a job some day.  Probably
will.  So what is your point?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:30 PDT 1996
Article: 55361 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Re: are you a bigot?
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 00:13:04 GMT
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On Sun, 04 Aug 1996 14:59:34 -0700, bud  wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:30:26 GMT, pgroff@txdirect.net (pgroff) wrote:
>> 
>> >On Wed, 31 Jul 1996 18:45:32 -0700, bud  wrote:
>> 
>> >>If you don't know who "invented" this "misnomer" how do you know
>> >>he/she/it/they were/are "Jew-hater's?"  Get real and drop the persecution
>> >>complex everytime somebody tells some truth in relation to you or your
>> >>selction religion.  Christians have to deal with it all the time.
>> >The Term "AntiSemite was coined by Wilhelm Marr, and if you had read
>> >anything about him you would have known that, but you didn't
>> >dudrite, what a maroon.
>> 
>> 
>>_______________________________________________________________________
>> >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only
>> >interest is in causing fights.  While he can sound superficially
>> >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while
>> >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to
>> >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when
>> >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally
>> >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual
>> >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and
>> >respond.  For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to
>> 
>>_______________________________________________________________________
>> >URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt
>> 
>> >P. GROFF
>> ========
>> Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
>> Subject: Ooooo, those nasty SS
>> From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer)
>> Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:53:37 GMT
>> 
>> " The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven
>> entrances to the four-story
>> house, with their tongues and lips. After those stairways were wased,
>> the same people were
>> forced to collect garbage in the courtyard with their lips. All garbage
>> had to be transferred to one
>> place in the courtyard. "
>> IMT VII - p.491.

>Hey...! Are you disagreeing with me?!  Are you a bigot?  Are you one of 
>those "Christian-hating" anti-Christianists?
>-- 
>"The judgement of history depends on who writes it"  (Richard Nixon)

	You repeat the mantra you get one of the real true fact holocaust
stories.  How many of them would you like?  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:31 PDT 1996
Article: 55363 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust final exam
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 00:27:35 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 04 Aug 1996 15:14:29 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:


>Question:
>	The reason the Jews are so avid in bellowing the Holocaust story
>is:

>	A: So that the world will know the horrors of bigotry and malice?

>	B: To instill guilt, justify Zionist policies and to extort
>money. 

	C:  In the hope that after every succeeding holocaust, that if they
redouble their efforts, it will prevent the next one, i.e., simple
stupidity.  

	Remember, never substitute conspiracy when simple stupidity will
explain everything.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 21:51:32 PDT 1996
Article: 55375 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 00:54:15 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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     What is interesting about the claims of mass extermination 
by gassing is that all such claims were generated by the 
Russians.  It is also interesting that at no time did the 
Russians present any forensic evidence of even small time gassing 
much less mass gassing.  It is even more interesting that at no 
time did the Russians provide any forensic evidence of even the 
number of bodies required to support claims of mass gassing.  

     







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug  4 23:16:13 PDT 1996
Article: 422610 of talk.politics.misc
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: dc.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,dc.politics,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.clinton,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa
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	Given that Kenneth Starr has said he will put off indicting the
Clintons until after the election, would it not be appropriate to
consider that 

	A Vote for Clinton is a Vote for Gore?  

	Out of curiosity, when was there a time in the past when there was a
possibility to indict a president before an election?  Nixon may have
done a lot but I do not remember any particular federal indictments
involved.  The burglary and such would be covered by DC law.  The
coverup was a political problem.  

	So when did the Justice Department formulate the policy that Starr
says he is following?  When was the other time that there was a
possible DOJ indictment this close to an election?   

	If it was Nixon, what was the possible indictment?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:11 PDT 1996
Article: 55402 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.christnet,alt.religion.christian,alt.bible.prophecy
Subject: Re: some quotes that need consideration...
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 00:17:19 GMT
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On 4 Aug 1996 16:13:59 GMT, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote:

>In article <3202441D.326@mail.gte.net>,
>bud (budwrite@mail.gte.net) whines:

>	Albert Einstein said:  "Anti-Semitism is nothing but the
>	antagonistic attitude produced in the non-Jew by the Jewish
>	group.  The Jewish group has thrived on oppression and on the
>	antagonism it has forever met in the world."  (Collier's
>	Magazine, Nov. 26, 1938) Einstein was describing their common
>	use of "chutzpah" for their own gain and profit while crying 
>	"persecution."

>Einstein was desribing the enormous contributions Jews like himself
>have made to society in spite of all the "oppression and... antagonism"
>we have encountered at the hands of society.

>Mr. Bud does not believe we Jews deserve to "gain and profit" from our
>contributions, as any other people have a right to expect.  And he
>sneers at the persecution of Jews, totally oblivious to the fact that
>his very sneers are his own small contribution to that very persecution.

	It is interesting that you feel persecuted.  When did these feelings
start?  Have you ever consulted a professional about your feelings?  

>He who divorces his wife is hated before God.
>	-- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed.

	So that is why so many refuse to give their wives religious divorces.





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:12 PDT 1996
Article: 55407 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 02:12:38 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 04 Aug 1996 17:37:13 +0000, Chuck Ferree 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>Chuck Ferree wrote:

>Question for our resident expert on "you name it!"

>Gywer, do you have any clues that would give you cause to believe that 
>anyone reading your silly, rambling posts, gives a shit?

>You're a simple troll, Gywer, and not a very good one at that. 
>Chuck
>> 
>> On Sun, 04 Aug 1996 16:00:08 -0300, Keith Morrison 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> >>         Except that since we have the Internet Cremation Society actually describing

	I never assumed you were capable of rational thought.  And to think
the army actually entrusted you with an armed airplane at one time.
It is truly amazing.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:13 PDT 1996
Article: 55410 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: lawsuit threats
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 1996 09:05:05 GMT
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On 27 Jul 1996 11:43:41 GMT, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>>There will not be a lawsuit from Giwer.  He is too gutless and he knows 
>full
>>well that he will be thrown out of court on his ass, assuming he can 
>find a
>>lawyer to take the case, which I very much doubt.  
>>However, if he should be so stupid as to try it anyway, I can assure 
>you
>>that my lawsuit, in the form of a counter-suit, will follow in 24 hours. 

>>Thus, since he is so terrified of me, you can be sure there will be no
>>lawsuit from the Prince.
>>Gord McFee

>Giwer....
>j*ws sue everybody & everything.

>I've found that the only thing they DO understand is violence. History 
>proves that (hee hee).

>Get with the program, kiddo.

	I have no idea who sues who but I note that I was first threatened with a
lawsuit by McFly.  

	The threats have been hot an heavy in every controversial conference I have
been on since 1980.  So far as I am aware only one of them has proceeded and
was quashed in its pleading.  

	That means, beneath judicial notice. 

	This may be the second.  Quite an honor.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:14 PDT 1996
Article: 55411 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 23:15:12 GMT
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On Sun, 04 Aug 1996 15:43:39 -0300, Keith Morrison 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>         Except that since we have the Internet Cremation Society actually describing
>> the "ash" as not really being ash and since we have holohuggers introducing
>> bone grinding to the fineness of a 1 cm sieve we are not talking about
>> particulate sediment here.  That is in approximate agreement with the ICS.
>> 
>>         We are talking about "ashes" that are many orders of magnitude larger than
>> sediment.
>> 
>>         For all practical purposes you might as well be talking about the river moving
>> small pebbles.  And since this is your speciality, you know the dynamics will
>> be that the sediment will move leaving these small objects behind much as the
>> stone lined stream bed.

>You think so?  Matt, Matt, Matt, I've seen several thousand kilo boulders transported
>during a flood.  I've seen rivers that have changed course over the period of a few
>days across their valley.  I've seen sediments deposited by rivers that were far larger
>than 1 centimeter across for individual clasts.

>Tell you what, Matt.  Why don't you take a one-centimeter diameter pebble made of, say
>quartz, that is denser than human ash, paint it bright flourescent pink and toss it in
>a river that approximates the Vistula.  Then go back in a year and tell me if that
>pebble is in the same place.

	We have roughly 4000 cu meters of such fragments.  That gives us 4
billion such pebbles that started out in piles.  These piles were both
in the river and in some local lakes.  

	There being no flow in lakes, those piles are certainly there.  

	And it would be a simple matter to examine the records for such a
flood, in fact the Russians could simply have asked the locals if
there were any such floods before they started looking for the
evidence.  

	Certainly they could have checked the lakes.  After all the Russians
had the people who knew of the lake dumping.  They would certainly be
right around the shore.  

>You see, what Matt thinks (I believe) is that sediments have to be actually picked
>up to be moved downstream.  This is false.  Rocks can be rolled along the bottom,
>slowly but surely.

	Why do you pretend you have to guess when you read the description I
wrote of the process that would have occurred?  Why the straw man
approach?    

>As for the sieve comment all I have to say is this:  the 1 centimeter size is clearly
>the *largest* particulate size that would pass through.  However, as any soft
>rock geologist knows this information by itself is entirely worthless.  What is
>rather important is the size distribution of the particles.  From what has been
>said it cannot be determined if the ground material averaged 1 centimeter in size
>or whether 99% of it was much smaller.

	The remaining bone fragments were crushed down to that size.  As for
worthless, the claim would apply to a natural process.  This is a
human process.  Grind until they fall through, what does not fall
through gets ground again. 

	So the result is some very fine material from the fractures and pieces
roughly at 1 cm size.  The actual size range would depend upon the
grinder and the properties of these bones.  As the grinding ceases
after they fall through the first time, there will be a very sharp cut
off at some size just under 1 cm, certainly no small than 0.5 cm.  

>Stay tuned.  I'll post the equations needed to determine the carrying capacity
>of a stream as soon as I dig out my sedimontology books.

	Do not forget to cover the carrying capacity of lakes when you do so.






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:15 PDT 1996
Article: 55412 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Nizkor/Wiesenthal
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 01:59:00 GMT
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On Sun, 04 Aug 1996 15:15:56 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>	
>	Simon Wiesenthal says the reason the numbers at Auschwitz were
>inflated by 3 million is because of intentional shenanigans on the
>part of the Russians and Poles.
>	Nizkor says it was the "4 million variant", a mistake the
>Russians made in figuring the crematoria rates.
>	Wiesenthal says it was intentional.
>	Nizkor says it was a mistake.
>	Of course there are plenty of examples of wild rumors and even
>more exaggerated numbers being thrown around before the end of the
>war, and that is where it all started. The Russians going into the
>camp and getting some eyewitness testimony that mirrored these rumors,
>the end of a long and arduous war and the stage was set. Find the
>first examples of rumors and go from there. 

	And let the "investigators" ask something like, "Did you hear about
the gassing?" and they get the rumor.  

	Or do it with the usual Russian approach.  Have the inmates brought
one at a time under armed guard to a small room for interrogation and
order, "Tell me about the gassing."  

	Then as the interrogator finds a belief pattern, fills in the blanks
and covers the contradictions in his own mind, he starts leading
questions, not about the blanks or contradictions but about the points
that most convince him.  For example, "Don't you mean the LK and not
the Kommandant's office?"  

	And if he insists on the Kommandant's office, "Why are you lying to
protect the Kommandant?  Were you a sonderkommando?"  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:16 PDT 1996
Article: 55413 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 23:39:28 GMT
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On Sun, 04 Aug 1996 17:37:30 -0300, Keith Morrison 
wrote:

>Keith Morrison wrote:
>> 
>> Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> >         Except that since we have the Internet Cremation Society actually describing
>> > the "ash" as not really being ash and since we have holohuggers introducing
>> > bone grinding to the fineness of a 1 cm sieve we are not talking about
>> > particulate sediment here.  That is in approximate agreement with the ICS.
>> >
>> >         We are talking about "ashes" that are many orders of magnitude larger than
>> > sediment.
>> >
>> >         For all practical purposes you might as well be talking about the river moving
>> > small pebbles.  And since this is your speciality, you know the dynamics will
>> > be that the sediment will move leaving these small objects behind much as the
>> > stone lined stream bed.

>> Stay tuned.  I'll post the equations needed to determine the carrying capacity
>> of a stream as soon as I dig out my sedimontology books.

>From a Hjulstrom Diagram, as modified by Sundborg in the 1956 _Geografiska Annaler_,
>a water velocity of 1 m/s will lift a 1 cm quartz grain off the bottom.  1 m/s is
>3.6 km/h.  This is below my calculations made earlier that assume a flow of 5 km/h,
>which is a pretty damn slow river.

>Care to comment, Matt?

	You are claiming this is your field?  

	A river with that velocity near the shore or on the bottom is a very
fast river in the center.  It is difficult to imagine any text on the
subject that would not cover this in the first chapter.  

	Since this is your field, why are you ignorant of the velocity
difference between the boundaries of a river and the center of a
river?  Or are you overlooking what you clearly have to know in the
rush to create some plausibility for the idea that the ashes would
have washed away so quickly?  

	Perhaps, since this is your field, you are relying upon the ignorance
of others in the matter to try to make a case that is not true?  

	Or are you going to attempt to claim that fluid flow is the same at
the center and at the boundaries?  That way you can write a great
paper as to why all observations and measurements are to the contrary.


	You can also explain why everyone who has floated anything in a river
has observed exactly what I am describing.  Perhaps you can invoke the
optical illusion argument.  

	But rest assured, Nizkor will carry your statements as though they are
gospel and will not carry anything that will indicate where you are
wrong.  Nizkor has no knowledge of science and, as with believing
every impossible thing witnesses report, they swallow any trash
science a true believer invents.  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:17 PDT 1996
Article: 55414 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Neo-Nazikor Project
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 01:49:46 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 43
Message-ID: <4u3k2e$b82@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com>
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On 4 Aug 1996 12:12:30 GMT, EEGG87E@prodigy.com (M Huber) wrote:

>> >It is Ken McVay, Director of the Nizkor Project, addressing himself to 
>Sol
>>> >Litman's attempt to get Marc Lemire's Freedom Site shut down:

>>> >If Littman had any knowledge of the Internet, he would know that the 
>Nizkor
>>> >Project [http://www.anonymizer.com:8080/http://www.nizkor.org/] is an 
>award
>>> >winning website that is accessed daily by hundreds. In addition to 
>being a
>>> >source for those who seek information about the facts of the 
>Holocaust, it
>>> >is used as an electronic resource for those who wish to 'deal with 
>[these
>>> >groups] honestly and forcefully' thereby exposing Lemire and many 
>others --

>"Award-winning" has no merit in itself. In fact, j*ws under attack for 
>their crimes are frequently  given awards by other criminal j*ws. Such 
>was the case, for instance, when mickey EISNER [Disney] was under 
>scrutiny for embezzling corporate funds on behalf of j*wish projects; 
>steven SPIELBERG promptly threw him a dinner & gave him a newly invented 
>award. They monthly now give each other impromptu awards.

	And as for the web, it is unclear just what the basis for these awards
are, there are so many of them.  When it comes to Nizkor it was
certainly not for style as the webmaster and webmistress could barely
spell HTML.  It was not for design as there was none.  

	It may have been for volume of content but it could not have been, and
still can not be for organization or availability of content.  

	Rather I would say it was clearly awarded for subject matter.  Mention
the holocaust, call it a crime, a shame, remember the dead, lay it on
thick and up pops an award.  








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:18 PDT 1996
Article: 55419 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news1.wtn.mci.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!lll-winken.llnl.gov!nntp.coast.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Bahr testifies from a bar
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 01:07:19 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 16
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On 4 Aug 1996 06:14:17 GMT, jbelling@sprynet.com wrote:

>He only had orders to pour in the gas?  At Neuengamme?  And he returned in 2 hours and marched in and 
>dragged out the corpses?  All on the orders of this doctor?  And we all know there was no gas chamber at 
>Neuengamme...Why did you bother posting this nonsense?

	To a holohugger any building can be a gas chamber and probably was.  

	You should have been here when they were floundering over a picture of
the inside of a room that obviously had a window and things mounted on
the wall claiming it was a gas chamber.  It was even more amazing when
they were seeing blue stains on the walls in this black and white
picture.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:19 PDT 1996
Article: 55421 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!psgrain!iafrica.com!pipex-sa.net!plug.news.pipex.net!pipex!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!in-news.erinet.com!imci5!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Mr. keren also ignores this aspect
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 00:49:28 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 40
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On 4 Aug 1996 14:58:07 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P.
Stein) wrote:

>In article <4tv62p$15j@juliana.sprynet.com>,   wrote:

>>This in itself (The cyanide on the grids) is of little significance,
>>because all the bunkers were continuously disinfested with Zyklon
>>B-especially the morgue and autopsy sections.

>    Because!  I!  Say!  So!

	What does not matter who says the obvious?  

>>The grids exposure to the
>>cyanide does not imply any sinister connotations. 

>    Let's see: the fact that there are fewer cyanide traces than in the
>delousing chambers is supposedly proof there was no gassing.  But the
>cyanide traces that are there are not significant because the morgues were
>"continuously disinfested with Zyklon B."

>    Yes, denier logic at its finest!

	Obviously you start with the Russian premise that there was gassing
despite it never having been established to any reasonable standard of
proof at any time.  

	One would think that a chemist would accept the claims of a researcher
as to something new without even questioning how the person knows it
is true.  No scientist, save the poor ones who hang around the
holocaust, would ever accept testimony without physical evidence.  

	It is rather amazing that after so many years a few of them are
finally noticing that it would be nice to have some yet even then,
anything that is contrary to the Russian claims about gassing is
rejected out of hand.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:19 PDT 1996
Article: 55422 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: An SS Court States: Almost like Lt. Calley
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 00:42:08 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 51
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On 4 Aug 1996 15:56:49 -0400, rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote:

>Ehrlich606 (ehrlich606@aol.com) wrote:
>: In article <4tuvg9$sc3@juliana.sprynet.com>, rblackmore@juno.com writes:

>: >
>: >Almost like Lt, Calley....
>: >
>: >

>: You will note that this massacre was rather similar to those committed by
>: Germans, particularly SS and their foreign auxiliaries.  Note also that
>: the punishments handed down were ludicrously light.  Note further that no
>: one has written the book, *Johnson's Willing Executioners* (or maybe it
>: should be *Nixon's*?)

>	I think most people (at least most people I know) agree at this point
>that American troops were guilty of a number of excesses during the Vietnam
>conflict.  Further: I think they've been aware of this for some time.  (I'm a 
>bit young to remember, but wasn't the term "Baby Killer!" frequently flung
>about when referring to U.S. troops in Vietnam?) 

>	I also think most people consider the My Lai massacre an atrocity.
>Since I know little about the final outcome of My Lai, I'll reserve comment.
>It wouldn't surprise me to find that this atrocity was glossed over and that
>those responsible evaded justice.

>	But I don't see anyone claiming that My Lai never happened, that 
>Calley's confessions were obtained by torture, that photographic evidence
>introduced into the trials were forged, and that some shadowy conspiracy
>has responsible for perpetrating a "hoax" to smear the reputation of fine,
>upstanding Americans.  (Perhaps the John Birch Society or the LaRouchers _are_
>saying something like this; if so, I doubt anyone is taking them seriously.)
>I don't see anyone screaming that _Platoon_ should be banned as anti-American
>hate propaganda.  I don't see anyone drawing obscene cartoons of Vietnamese 
>children ala Dietlieb Felderer.  Yet when dealing with the Holocaust, something
>which seems to me at least as well-documented as the My Lai massacre, I _do_ 
>see all these things.

	The forensic evidence of bodies that died of bullet wounds of US
calibers was also introduced into evidence.  That kind of evidence is
what is lacking from the gassing evidence.  In fact the Russians even
failed to "discover" cyanide traces when they were clearly needed for
the chain of evidence of gassing.  

	Imagine the prosecutor at the OJ trial trying to prove their throats
were cut without any forensic evidence of cut throats.  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:20 PDT 1996
Article: 55423 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Those dirty Nazi SOB's got what they deserved
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 01:03:53 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
Lines: 49
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On 4 Aug 1996 06:11:11 GMT, jbelling@sprynet.com wrote:

>Here is a statement from Seaghan Maynes, a journalist who covered the Nuremberg trials:

>"The strange irony in the case of Hess was that he was the only man in the whole Nazi hierarchy who had 
>tried to get peace.  He had flown in somewhat mysterious circumstances to Britain in 1941 - parachuting into 
>Scotland - in a vain effort to get peace negotiations started with the Allies.  His life sentence eventually 
>became more than forty years' solitary confinement. I don't know of any other human being who suffered that 
>penalty in the interests of justice."  

	Of course the objective was to cover up the support for Germany in
England.  

>One of the things which bothered us a lot in the press corps was the hearsay evidence.  I'm not promoting 
>the defense of the German defendants (God forbid!) but the legality of a lot of the evidence brought against 
>them just didn't exist.  There was, I suppose, about 200 witnesses against the defandants, but a lot of 
>documents were produced, sheaf after sheaf, consisting of "Statement of Katusha Misleva from the village 
>of X, who testifies that she heard from her cousin Maria Blobova of the village of Y, who had been told by 
>somebody else that so many people had been executed by the Germans in such and such a place."  This 
>was the sort of stuff that used to pile up, and it was completely unnecessary....

	In those days the press did not make points with interpretive
journalism.  They reported facts, they did not explain facts.  But it
is good to see that what is obvious today was also obvious them.

	Obvious to everyone but holohugging attorneys who still find nothing
wrong with hearsay evidence and the lack of physical evidence.  

>....And as for the possibility of the German defendants getting witnesses to come forward - they would be as 
>scarce as holy water in an Orange Lodge.  What German was going to get up and give evidence for 
>Goering, or Streicher, or Kaltenbrunner?  They had to live in Germany under the Allied occupation.  Some 
>Germans, military men and officials, came and gave evidence for the prosecution, and the press people in 
>my circle didn't have a great deal of sympathy for them, because they'd lived high on the hog while their 
>bosses were in power.  Here under the occupation, with the winners conducting a trial, a lot of these people 
>were trying to get themselves a good deal.

	And of course seeing the kinds of trials that were being held it was
certainly obvious to them that if the victors wanted them legally dead
a dozen witnesses could be found to swear they operated the gas
chambers personally even if they never left Germany.  

>Another thing some press people felt was that very little attention was paid to the Christians who died in the 
>camps....One got the impression that only Jewish people were exterminated, because world attention was 
>focused on the Jewish victims."

	6 million are a tragedy, the other 6 million a footnote.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:21 PDT 1996
Article: 55435 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!news.mag-net.com!aurora.cs.athabascau.ca!rover.ucs.ualberta.ca!news.bc.net!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!ixnews1.ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 03:58:47 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 00:22:57 -0300, Keith Morrison 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>(speaking to Sara)

>>         And you have the tits to post in public.
>> 
>>         Quite amazing.

>That's "balls", Matt.  "And you have the *balls* to post in public."

>Then again, I can see why you've made that mistake.  After all you
>apparently don't have the balls to answer many, many questions that
>have been asked of you.  Or at least not the balls to admit you were
>wrong.

	You mean to say he is trolling for sex?  

>--
>Keith Morrison
>t08o@unb.ca




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 07:05:22 PDT 1996
Article: 55454 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Sun, 04 Aug 1996 23:59:40 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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On Sun, 04 Aug 1996 16:00:08 -0300, Keith Morrison 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>         Except that since we have the Internet Cremation Society actually describing
>> the "ash" as not really being ash and since we have holohuggers introducing
>> bone grinding to the fineness of a 1 cm sieve we are not talking about
>> particulate sediment here.  That is in approximate agreement with the ICS.
>> 
>>         We are talking about "ashes" that are many orders of magnitude larger than
>> sediment.
>> 
>>         For all practical purposes you might as well be talking about the river moving
>> small pebbles.  And since this is your speciality, you know the dynamics will
>> be that the sediment will move leaving these small objects behind much as the
>> stone lined stream bed.
>> 
>> >Let us see what a river can transport in an extreme case and then get back
>> >to the Vistula, shall we?
>> 
>>         Search for the Internet Cremation Society and learn what you are talking about
>> moving.  Then get back to me.

>The following is a copy of a followup I just wrote in the thread "Re: Listen up, Alex G"
>For amusements sake you will note who was kind enough to supply the figures I used
>in my calculations.


>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>         You will recall from last time we has 2000 tons of bone fragments from
>> Treblinka and 3000 tons from Auschwitz to find.  That was based upon the
>> internet cremation society's statement of 5-7 pound of bone fragements
>> remaining after cremation and I used 5 pounds so as not to exaggerate
>> the number.

>[snip]

>> A. In order to accomidate the cremated remains of an average size adult,
>> the urn should have a capacity of at least 205 cubic inches.

>One cubic inch is equal to 16.39 cubic centimeters, thus 205 cubic inches
>is just about 3360 CC.

>Five pounds of bone is 2.27 kilos or 2270 grams.

>Dividing the mass by the volume we get (2270/3360) or 0.68 grams/cc.

>The density of water is 1 gram/cc approximetly).  Thus the specific
>gravity of the human remains, *USING MATT'S OWN FIGURES*, is 0.68.

>Anything with a specific gravity less than that of water floats.

>Ergo, human cremated remains float off happily down the Vistula.
>They do not settle.  They do not drop to the bottom.  They float
>away.

>I eagerly await Mr. Giwer's response.

	It appears you were born yesterday.  

	When ashes are scattered at sea they are poured out of the urn.  They
sink.  

	When ashes are buried on the family farm or some such they do not
float up to the surface after a few heavy rains.  

	Interesting that you failed to consider the original source material
>from  the internet cremation society and assumed that the ashes in the
urn would have a packing factor of one.  (Meaning that you left out
the air between the fragments.)

	Additionally you failed to consider the chemical composition of the
fragments as a sanity check upon your calculations.  

	Did you ever consider crosschecking your conclusions against other
facts before you post them?  Or are you trying to get into the Nizkor
Hall of Fame by posting so many plausible but incorrect things, like
your "slow" river and now this?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 12:27:16 PDT 1996
Article: 422651 of talk.politics.misc
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: dc.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,dc.politics,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.clinton,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa
Subject: an observation
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 04:45:10 GMT
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	It is not so interesting how Bush lost the 92 election but rather how
Clinton won it with all the drug use among his campaign workers.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 12:27:17 PDT 1996
Article: 422667 of talk.politics.misc
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,dc.politics,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Re: Harry Browne is getting stronger
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 05:17:56 GMT
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On 29 Jul 1996 21:26:34 GMT, af786@cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Lad A.
Jelen) wrote:



>If he gets any stronger, Clinton is SURE to win!  Wise up folks:
> 
> 
>You have two choices this November - to vote FOR or AGAINST Clinton.
>The only candidate who can beat Clinton is the mainstream Republican
>candidate.  If you don't vote for him, you're casting a de facto vote
>for Clinton.  Got it?

	Giving the indictments Starr has planned after the election, a vote
for Clinton is a vote for Gore.  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 12:27:18 PDT 1996
Article: 422788 of talk.politics.misc
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,dc.politics,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.clinton,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa
Subject: Re: bust the Dealers in the White-powder-house !!!!!
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 04:17:43 GMT
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On Sat, 27 Jul 1996 10:05:26 GMT, gary12@ibm.net (ZB) wrote:

>On Fri, 26 Jul 96 19:55:49, Zack C Sessions  wrote:

>>
>>In Article,  writes:
>>> 
>>>     once again - where there are users there are dealers
>>> 
>>>     if someone buys and resells dope they are dealers - plain and simple
>>
>>Once again jakala illustrates his utter ignorance.
>>
>>First thing is that there is no evidence there are users in the White
>>House. In fact there is plenty of evidence to the contrary since NONE
>>of these people who have to take the drug tests have failed any.
>>
>>Secondly, the presence of users does NOT imply the presence of dealers.
>>
>>Thirdly, just because someone is a user does not imply that they are
>>going to automatically re-sell any of what they have bought.
>>
>>
>Some people require very simply explanations, maybe Mr. jakala now has
>a clearer understanding of the situation.

	Going down memory lane ... George Bush held an anti-drug thing on TV
and showed some cocaine that he said was bought in LaFayette Park.  

	Shortly thereafter the press had a field day about how he exaggerated
the problem by recounting how the drug dealer had to be enticed into
the park.  

	In comparison when White House employees were using drugs during the
campaign and the press doesn't think it is interesting.  

	Does anyone still think the press is impartial?  





From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Mon Aug  5 12:27:19 PDT 1996
Article: 422796 of talk.politics.misc
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: dc.politics,talk.politics.misc,talk.politics.libertarian,dc.politics,alt.president.clinton,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.clinton,alt.impeach.clinton,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.fan.newt-gingrich,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa
Subject: Drugs, the White House, and the media
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 04:33:35 GMT
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	Years ago Bush went on TV to talk against drugs and showed some
cocaine he said was bought that day in Lafayette Park, across the
street from the White House.

	It turned out that while that much was true, the dealer had to be
enticed to actually come to the park so he could be arrested in a good
"sound bite" location.  And of course when the press heard about it
they ridiculed Bush for exaggerating the problem.  Merely for
exaggerating the problem.  

	Some years later Gingrich tells of the drug users in the White House,
Panetta lies about it, and the press has a field day with the
irresponsible Gingrich.

	Just last month, we find that there are people in the White House who
had used drugs during the 1992 campaign and the press doesn't appear
to have much interest in the story.  

	It appears the 89% that voted for him have put their party loyalty far
ahead of their job.  Not that that is a surprise, it is simply one
more example.  

	Or is the claim that it was irresponsible to tell the truth and that
actually putting such drug users in the White House is in fact
responsible?  






From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Tue Aug  6 10:12:03 PDT 1996
Article: 422874 of talk.politics.misc
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: dc.politics,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,dc.politics,talk.politics.libertarian
Subject: Campaign like ? govern like ?
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 07:01:52 GMT
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	Every year the major parties make moves into each other's territory,
so they claim.  

	In fact, each year the parties move into Libertarian territory and
then whichever wins governs like it always did.  

	Both campaign for more liberty but give government-managed liberty.  

	Both campaign for limited government but give limited growth in
government.  

	Both parties are sucker bets.  

	But clearly what they campaign on is what the people want and they
know it.  

	But they will not deliver it.  

	




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug  7 13:27:39 PDT 1996
Article: 55567 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was.
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 09:59:06 GMT
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On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 04:07:41 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote:

>				
>	             The Roman Empire was.
>How do we know?  From Rome to Western Europe, to Eastern Europe, to
>Africa, the Mideast, all around the Mediterranean, thousands of miles
>of roadways, hundreds of miles of aqueducts, hundreds of sculptures,
>murals, scores of amphitheaters, arches, law, innovations and a
>extensive written record. Tangibles.

>                  The Holocaust was.
>How do we know? Eye-witness testimony, special interpretation of
>documents. 


	But holohugging attorneys swear the latter is as good as and no
different than the former.  They all swear on a stack of Torahs that
testimony is equal to physical evidence.  Not only equal, the same as.


	There is no question that they are wrong.  The only question is
whether or not they are knowingly lying.  I presume they are,
including the attorneys, as it is difficult to imagine even a six year
old not being able to tell the difference.  








From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug  7 13:27:40 PDT 1996
Article: 55569 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: demography, the missing jews
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 09:52:32 GMT
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On 5 Aug 1996 01:25:09 GMT, Jean-Francois Beaulieu 
wrote:


>One of the arguments that is used often in front is the case of the 'missing
>jews'. Four months ago, I had a discussion with Yale Eideken who claimed that
>Butz figure for Israel, a demographic growth of 500,000 between 1944 and 1949,
>were irrelevant since many sepharadims immigrated in Israel after 1948.
>My point was to say that the bulk of the sepharadim could not have leaved
>their country in the early 1949 but later. I brought some other elements.
>However, Yale insisted and took Hilberg's figure, something like 142,000
>holocaust survivors who went there. I was in New York 2 months ago and I
>found something interesting in the archives: Los Angeles times, 23 january
>1995. Lemberger, the director of Amicha, said that he believed that 300,000
>holocaust survivors were still alive in Israel. Amicha seems to be a jewish
>organization that deal with such issues. But Ingrid gave this information
>in a recent zgram. What is interesting however is that the same man, in this
>article, said also that there was 550,000 holocaust survivors in Israel in
>the early 50's. Bye bye Yale.

> For United States, I'm not sure of the exact number, the usual figure that
> was given by UNRRA doesn't give necessarelly the right total, especially
> if we take in account illegal immigration that jewish organizations had
> valid reasons to minimized, but perhaps even those organizations never
> tried to count the real number.

> For USSR, we know that the statistics that were given by the soviets were
> unreliables. As a matter of fact, we have this article:

>    In the New-York Post, 1 july 1991 (p.16) an article from Uri Dan,
>    journalist of Tel Aviv, say that up to now Israelis authority
>    were estimating the jewish russians to a number between 2 and
>    3 millions. 'But the israelis emissaries who can now travel freely
>    there report that a numer of 5 millions would be more accurate'.

> In that case, what we can conclude is that the post war soviet claim was
> not significant. Not that all those 2 millions extra Jews are descent of
> deported Jews, but at least  if we take in account boundary changements,
> the fact that even in the 30's there was a vast movement of emigration
> from Europe to other countries in the Jewish population, that they had
> much more reasons to emigrate in 1945 due to economic reasons, than
> one can hardly claim that the vanishing of a lot of Jews is a 'mystery'.
> I don't know how many died, one million, two, that's another question.
> But certanly not six.
>

	Neither the US nor Russia keep statistics by religion so there is no
way to find out what happened in either country.  



From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug  7 13:27:41 PDT 1996
Article: 55594 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union
Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU
Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 20:11:06 GMT
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On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:28:23 -0300, Keith Morrison 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 00:22:57 -0300, Keith Morrison 
>> wrote:
>> 
>> >Matt Giwer wrote:
>> 
>> >(speaking to Sara)
>> 
>> >>         And you have the tits to post in public.
>> >>
>> >>         Quite amazing.
>> 
>> >That's "balls", Matt.  "And you have the *balls* to post in public."
>> 
>> >Then again, I can see why you've made that mistake.  After all you
>> >apparently don't have the balls to answer many, many questions that
>> >have been asked of you.  Or at least not the balls to admit you were
>> >wrong.
>> 
>>         You mean to say he is trolling for sex?

>Oh keep on evading, Oh Spineless One.  And while you are running like
>the yellow-bellied, cowardly worm that you are, maybe you could take the
>time to answer the following questions:

>1.  What hominid averaged seven feet in height?
>2.  When was the tape recorder invented?
>3.  When was the term "United Nations" first used?
>4.  Where was the Cambodian Embassy in the US during the Khmer Rouge regime?
>5.  How many bones does _Gray's Anatomy_ say are in the skull and pelvis?
>6.  What evidence is there that the skull and pelvis are most likely to
>    survive a cremation compared to the other bones of the body?

	When McVay posts his own questions and is here to read my answers and
to respond to them in public I will consider answering them.  If you
ever come up with any of your own questions, get back to me.  

	In the mean time, try answering a question yourself.  Why did you
suggest Sara is a man?  







From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug  7 13:27:42 PDT 1996
Article: 55595 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 00:56:48 GMT
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On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 12:55:00 -0300, Keith Morrison 
wrote:

>Matt Giwer wrote:

>>         It appears you were born yesterday.
>> 
>>         When ashes are scattered at sea they are poured out of the urn.  They
>> sink.
>> 
>>         When ashes are buried on the family farm or some such they do not
>> float up to the surface after a few heavy rains.

>Actually, I've scattered ashes on the family farm in my youth, Matt.  They
>are carried away by flowing water rather well.

	Suddenly you have had experience.  Amazing.  But rather than respond
to what I wrote you imply that calcium oxide is less dense than water
when you know it is heavier than water.  

	This is what I mean about the willingness of holohuggers to lie to
support their gassing fantasies.  

	But in honesty, you know they sink.  You also know the bone fragments
were ground much finer than the 1 cm sieve level.  

>>         Interesting that you failed to consider the original source material
>> from the internet cremation society and assumed that the ashes in the
>> urn would have a packing factor of one.  (Meaning that you left out
>> the air between the fragments.)

>I know they aren't perfectly packed, Giwer.  However, this creates a 
>problem for *you*, not me.

>Why, you ask?  Well, since they aren't packed that means that they can
>be compressed.  If they can be compressed, they take up less space.
>Thus, less difficulty to put them somewhere, especially if they are
>spread out over a wide area.

	No compression equipment has ever been reported even by the most
creative Russian investigator.  
 
>>         Additionally you failed to consider the chemical composition of the
>> fragments as a sanity check upon your calculations.

>Okay, genius.  What is the specific gravity of cremated human remains?
>Please share with us the vastness of your knowledge.  I noted that the
>Internet Cremation Society did *not* give a figure for this.  So where
>is yours from?

	When you consider that it is calcium oxide ... 

>>         Did you ever consider crosschecking your conclusions against other
>> facts before you post them?  Or are you trying to get into the Nizkor
>> Hall of Fame by posting so many plausible but incorrect things, like
>> your "slow" river and now this?

>People in glass houses should not throw stones, Giwer.  I stated quite
>clearly how I was deriving my figures.

	That is why it was so easy to spot your error so quickly.  

>You, on the other hand, have so far failed to give me a citation on what
>hominid averaged seven feet tall, you have failed to indicate where the
>Cambodian embassy was in the US that you "saw" during the Khmer Rouse
>regime, you have failed to tell me what _Gray's Anatomy_ gives as the
>number of bones in the skull and pelvis and you have failed to provide
>any citation that shows the skull and pelvis are the bones most likely
>to survive cremation intact.

	When you come up with your own questions, get back to me.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug  7 13:27:43 PDT 1996
Article: 55610 of alt.revisionism
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From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 09:41:10 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82

On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 08:17:58 GMT, hmazal@txdirect.net (Harry W. Mazal
OBE) wrote:

>On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 00:54:15 GMT, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
>wrote:

>>     What is interesting about the claims of mass extermination 
>>by gassing is that all such claims were generated by the 
>>Russians.  It is also interesting that at no time did the 
>>Russians present any forensic evidence of even small time gassing 
>>much less mass gassing.  It is even more interesting that at no 
>>time did the Russians provide any forensic evidence of even the 
>>number of bodies required to support claims of mass gassing.  

>Mr. Giwer states, regarding  mass exterminations,   that "all such
>claims were generated by the Russians." Perhaps he would be so kind as
>to post his references.     

>Not too likely....

	Likely or not, it is true.  Other than that, what is your point in
posting?  

>Mr. Giwer's posts are beyond the pale of civilized discourse.

	The truth is beyond civilized discourse?  Civilization is in deep
kim-chi if that is true. 

>His answers to well-researched and documented notes  are either
>a stream of vulgarities or a one-line response. For proof, visit:  

>URL http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt 

>Harry W. Mazal OBE

	Actually you are an ignorant, lying holohugger 

>Nizkor (USA)  An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource
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	as are all of the Nizkorites.  




From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug  7 13:27:43 PDT 1996
Article: 55611 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news
From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt  Giwer)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: promises of things to come
Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 10:02:03 GMT
Organization: images incarnate
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Reflections upon the Holocaust



Reflections upon the Holocaust
The gassing is not the Holocaust
      And the Holocaust is not the gassing. Yet there is a constant confusion that the two are identical. Not only that, there is a confusion with regard to what the Holocaust is, whether it refers to only the Jews or to everyone, whether 6 million are a tragedy and the other 6 million only a footnote.

The issue of 12 million deaths
      The problem with the deaths is rather more interesting. A long forgotten fact is that, as a result of WW II, 31 million people in the European theater were completely untraceable after the war. Those who look towards the holocaust for an explanation, assign 12 of these 31 million to Nazi extermination programs.
      The problem is that every person recorded to have been sent to a camp is accounted for to the limits of record keeping errors.

The issue of gassing
      One of the more difficult things to deal with regarding the holocaust is the use of gas for mass extermination. Part of the reason for this is that the details about these gassings are known. Another part of the reason is that the eyewitness reports do not appear to describe the gases they claim were used.
      I will try to fill in this gap.

The Search for the vanished
      If they disappeared into the camps, there should certainly have been a search for forensic evidence. Ignoring that, there would certainly have been a search for the remains so a few stars and crosses and appropriate words could be said in the right places. That is the human thing to do and always has been.
      No such thing has ever been done. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:44 PDT 1996 Article: 55613 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history Subject: Re: Eight Questions Matt Giwer won't answer (Round 6) Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 10:26:33 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 291 Message-ID: <4u76oc$6si@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u4k7m$vp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 06 5:28:28 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:55613 soc.history:7488 On 5 Aug 1996 04:00:06 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >Archive/File: people/g/giwer.matt/giwer-10q >Last-Modified: 1996/07/17 >"He who makes a claim bears the responsibility > of supporting it." (Matt Giwer) >Question 1 [February 1996] >-------------------------- > Mr. Giwer, during the course of discussions in February, 1996, > in which you performed some truly amazing mental gymnastics in > a futile attempt to confuse everyone, you made the following > statement: > Perhaps he is in league with the revisionists at Yad Vashem > who reduced the official number from 6 million to a bit over > 3 million. (Giwer, The 4-Million) > In subsequent follow-up articles on the same general topic, > that is, the number of Jewish victims to the Holocaust, you > were repeatedly asked to support this claim with > documentation. You have not, and will not, do this, since > the statement you made is an outright lie; however, for the > record, Mr. Giwer, when will you produce documentation, > from Yad Vashem, in support of your assertion? >Question 2 [February 1996] >-------------------------- > Also, in February of 1996, you claimed that since the United Nations > did not come into existence until 1945 that reference to the United > Nations could not have occured in 1944: > In August 1944 (fourty FOUR) how could the United Nations have > regarded him as anything when it would not even come into existence > until 15 months later? (Giwer, Re: Jewish Census) > Are you now prepared to retract that question in light of the fact > that you have been presented evidence that term "United Nations" was > used as early as 1942? >Question 3 [February 1996] >-------------------------- > On February 7, 1996 you made the following comment in reference to > the atrocities committed by the Khmer Rouge: > I was paying attention at the time and not once did I notice any > Jewish group protesting ouside of the Cambodian Embassy and I was > living in the DC area at the time, Fairfax County, Virginia to be > specific. (Giwer, Re: INTERNET FREE SPEECH WEB SITE ! (this > one's not a troll)) > Could you please specify the location of the Cambodian embassy to the > United States at the time of the Khmer Rouge. After you discover that > you are unable to do this, will you instead explain why you lied? >Question 4 [February 1996] >-------------------------- > On February 22, 1996 you made some rather interesting comments on the > production of "HCN" from burning atmospheric nitrogen: > It appears you are unaware the CN is a by product of incomplete > combustion. You see, you take a carbon based fuel and air which > contains more nitrogen than oxygen and also supports combustion but > at a higher temperature and you get a fractional production of CN > as well as CO and a mess of other things. With enough oxygen and > good design you will get all CO2 as the result. And of course if > you have ever paying any attention to the causes of smog you know one > of them nitrogen compounds emitted as gases. Do you think there is > some way to prevent carbon from being included among those compounds? > Of course there is a resident chemist here to confirm or deny this so > lets wait for his commentary. > ... > Yes, Virginia, there is nitrogen in the atomsphere and yes , Virginia, > it does burn. (Giwer, Re: Open Gallon of Paint - paint one door - > throw the rest away) > Since you are a qualified chemist, perhaps you can explain how > burning nitrogen results in reducing it rather than oxidizing it. > Yes, we know that in fuel lean conditions that N2 is oxidized to NO and > NO2 and that these species are an important component of photochemical > smog. Yes, we agree that it is possible under fuel rich conditions that > coal containing nitrogen could produce some uncombusted cyanides. > The part that's really difficult to understand is how atmospheric N2 > enters into the production of cyanides. Please be so kind as to > explain. >Question 5 >---------- > You have asserted that eyewitnesses to gassings have noted that > the victims took "tens of minutes" to die, and you claim that > this assertion contradicts your other assertion that Zyklon B > would have killed them more quickly. > > Here is the relevant excerpt from what you wrote: > For a moment there I thought had a way to salvage those stories > that talk about the screaming going on for tens of minutes. > > After a few minutes there was silence. After some time had > passed, it may have been ten to fifteen minutes, the gas > chamber was opened. > > Note the ten to fifteen minutes. (Giwer, Re: the mechanism of > hydrogen cyanide inhalation poisoning) > > Mr. Giwer, does the "ten to fifteen minutes" in the text you > quoted (See URL > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/faqs/auschwitz/auschwitz-faq-06.html) > refer to the time that the screaming went on -- i.e. before > the silence -- or does it refer to something else? > > If it refers to something else, do you still stand by your > statement that: > ...I am the only one who has read what people keep saying I > should read. (Ibid.) >Question Six [June 1996] >------------------------ > You have written, of late, the following comments regarding > the number of Holocaust victims: > 6,000,000 are a tragedy, the other 6,000,000 a footnote. > and ... > To the Holocaust museum folks the other 6 million are > the footnote. > Daniel Mittleman responded to these comments with the > following: > "Below ... is the Mission Statement of the Holocaust Museum. > (http://www.ushmm.org/misc-bin/add_goback/mission.html) > Please note in particular the second paragraph. The reader can > determine for himself whether or not Mr. Giwer's charge that > 'the other six million are a footnote' is accurate: > "Mission Statement > The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum is America's > national institution for the documentation, study, and > interpretation of Holocaust history, and serves as this > country's memorial to the millions of people murdered during > the Holocaust. > The Holocaust was the state-sponsored, systematic persecution > and annihilation of European Jewry by Nazi Germany and its > collaborators between 1933 and 1945. Jews were the primary > victims --- six million were murdered; Gypsies, the handicapped, > and Poles were also targeted for destruction or decimation for > racial, ethnic, or national reasons. Millions more, including > homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, Soviet prisoners of war, and > political dissidents also suffered grievous oppression and > death under Nazi tyranny." (Mittleman, Both Sides) > Mr. Giwer, please explain why you lied about the United States > Holocaust Memorial Museum's purpose and viewpoint. >Question Seven >-------------- > On June 15, 1996, you stated that: > "In the process of burning the two bones most likely > to be left are the pelvis and the skull. (Giwer, Dem bones, > dem bones, dem dry bones) > In response to subsequent questioning about the truth of this > statement, you have made some claims about the human skeleton > which, if true, would set the science of human skeletal biology > on its ear, bones and all. > In reply to a poster who asked you how many bones there are in > the human skull and pelvis, you wrote: > "The skull, two in an adult, counting the jaw, discounting > the six small bones in the ear. The pelvis, one. (Giwer; > Re: Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones; June 16, 1996) > When questioned about the accuracy of your answer by a poster > who pointed out that the skull consists of several bones, > you replied: > "You are talking about the skull of a child before the > skull is fused. (Giwer; Re: Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry > bones; June 18, 1996) > In response to this, another poster repeatedly asked you what > degree of closure (or fusion, if you prefer) there is in the > lambdoidal, sagittal and coronal sutures of the human cranium, > on average, by age 35. She pointed out that these are the major > sutures of the cranial vault (skull), and cited human skeletal > anatomy texts in which the answer could be found. > Your final statement related to this matter was reiteration of > your original claim: > "The fact remains that the pelvis and the skull are the bones > most likely to survive any form of cremation and the skull is > never mentioned by those so-called eyewitnesses. (Giwer; Re: > Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones; June 22, 1996) > As a qualified scientist perhaps you would answer the question > about when and how completely the different bones of the skull > fuse together. We know that in normal burial, the adult skull > remains intact. But we also know that the skull consists of a > number of bones, and that fusion of these different bones into > a single mass remains incomplete well into adulthood. Please > address the question related to closure and then explain why you > think that after cremation, intact skulls should have been > recovered and easily identified among the ashes removed from > crematoria. >Question Eight >-------------- > On July 10, 1996, you included the following assertion in > an article which you published in alt.revisionism: > > "McVay is a self aggrandizing fool who permits hired > underlings to speak for him while he refuses to speak > for himself." (Giwer, Re: Who would be Gannon?) > Please identify these "hired underlings" or admit that you > lied, apologize, and retract the statement. >For Work Cited, see >http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl?people/g/giwer.matt/giwer-10q-citations >-- >The Nizkor Project | http://www.nizkor.org/ >-----------------------| Random Giwer Whoppers Served Here > |-------------------------------------- > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/random-giwer-lie.pl And of course these are all questions that McVay refused to read the answers to the first time because he has me in his killfile. And he continues to spam the net with questions that he refuses to listen to the answers to. McVay is a lying asshole who abuses the net for his personal reasons of self agrandizement. It is interesting that now that Linda Thompson is pissed at me for revealing his military-industrial complex connections before she did whatever she wanted to do with it, and note it is not reconcilable with his claim of managing a gas station, it is still in question as to why the pretention remains when in fact he has been clearly fingered (internet protocol) as a US DOD contractor. What is he doing as a contractor? It is not as though Canada has any military prowess the US is interested in, in any manner. So what is going on here? Maybe there are two Ken McVays and this is the wrong one. I have not problem but there was not a denial the first time around. So, Nizkorites, was this revealed to you? Was it denied to you but never publically? Is this the same person? Is there any connection to anything else connected to what is being posted or to the sponsorship? Are you really being suckered into supporting something for free when the US DOD is on the other side of the line? I do not know. It just might be another Ken McVay. So is anyone going to answer the question if the gas pumper McVay is the same as the military contractor McVay? Will McVay answer the question? If it is another McVay, fine with me. I made a mistake. But certainly there is a need for an answer here. The McVay listed works for what money chain, when, where, and how? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:45 PDT 1996 Article: 55614 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!News1.mcs.net!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 09:45:37 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4u74bi$ktj@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <3205f862.173892@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 06 2:47:30 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:34:45 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> What is interesting about the claims of mass extermination >>by gassing is that all such claims were generated by the >>Russians. It is also interesting that at no time did the >>Russians present any forensic evidence of even small time gassing >>much less mass gassing. It is even more interesting that at no >>time did the Russians provide any forensic evidence of even the >>number of bodies required to support claims of mass gassing. > Giwer, don't you think it would have been easier to just say, 'No >one, ever, produced any kind of forensic evidence to verify the >Holocaust story'. No. These holohuggers need the obvious spelled out for them at every turn so they can not introduce some little quirk exception as a response. The Russians need to be pinned down as the origin of all of this and it has to be repeated often enough that the holohuggers can no longer deny it. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:46 PDT 1996 Article: 55615 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was. Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 09:59:41 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 21 Message-ID: <4u755t$50b@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <32057386.18750351@news.pacificnet.net> <320528AC.4214@rio.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 06 3:01:33 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sun, 04 Aug 1996 22:48:12 +0000, Chuck Ferree wrote: >Chuck Ferree writes for Moran: >The Holocaust was and still is Historical facts by the thousands. >Got nothing at all to do with Rome. >You don't know what the Holocaust is all about, because you don't want >to know what the Holocaust was all about. >Historical facts, the Nazis murdered millions of Jews and others by >mass gassings, mass shootings, starvation, neglect, all by Nazi >design. Look it up, it's all there. So a whacko like you was suckered in. So what? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:46 PDT 1996 Article: 55617 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!uwm.edu!spool.mu.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 10:34:07 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 72 Message-ID: <4u776g$6si@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tke3r$era@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4tmcnp$60v@access1.digex.net> <4tn81d$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <320135B3.2B0E@unb.ca> <4tuvr7$ga4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3204EF5B.4C89@unb.ca> <32050A0A.63CE@unb.ca> <4u3ce6$197@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3206148B.65D5@unb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 06 5:36:00 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 12:34:35 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >From a Hjulstrom Diagram, as modified by Sundborg in the 1956 _Geografiska Annaler_, >> >a water velocity of 1 m/s will lift a 1 cm quartz grain off the bottom. 1 m/s is >> >3.6 km/h. This is below my calculations made earlier that assume a flow of 5 km/h, >> >which is a pretty damn slow river. >> >> >Care to comment, Matt? >> >> You are claiming this is your field? >> >> A river with that velocity near the shore or on the bottom is a very >> fast river in the center. It is difficult to imagine any text on the >> subject that would not cover this in the first chapter. >> >> Since this is your field, why are you ignorant of the velocity >> difference between the boundaries of a river and the center of a >> river? Or are you overlooking what you clearly have to know in the >> rush to create some plausibility for the idea that the ashes would >> have washed away so quickly? >> >> Perhaps, since this is your field, you are relying upon the ignorance >> of others in the matter to try to make a case that is not true? >> >> Or are you going to attempt to claim that fluid flow is the same at >> the center and at the boundaries? That way you can write a great >> paper as to why all observations and measurements are to the contrary. >> >> You can also explain why everyone who has floated anything in a river >> has observed exactly what I am describing. Perhaps you can invoke the >> optical illusion argument. >> >> But rest assured, Nizkor will carry your statements as though they are >> gospel and will not carry anything that will indicate where you are >> wrong. Nizkor has no knowledge of science and, as with believing >> every impossible thing witnesses report, they swallow any trash >> science a true believer invents. >Very very good, Matt. I was wondering if you were paying attention. >Yes indeed this is not true in real life due to boundary effects as a >stream does not exhibit perfect laminar flow. However, this 1 m/s >lifting velocity, if you were paying attention, is for a 1 cm piece >of quartz. Quartz has a specific gravity of about 2.7. >What is the specific gravity of ash, Mr Giwer? Someone less than >2.7, no? >Further, 1 cm is the *largest possible* fragment size. If you grind >anything I will guarantee that a great deal will be much smaller than >the size of the sieve. As such the velocity of water needed to lift >it lowers exponentially. >As a further note, this also assumes lifting off the bed of the stream >which is not required to move material downstream. Material can roll >downstream and it happens all the time. That's why ripples occur, >slowly making their way downstream and moving material along. >-- >Keith Morrison >t08o@unb.ca Agreed. I am right. You are wrong. Agreed. You are misreprsenting to support you favorite holocaust. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:47 PDT 1996 Article: 55646 of alt.revisionism From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 09:17:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 06 2:19:43 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mindport.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2361 alt.revisionism:55646 alt.conspiracy:75261 alt.politics.white-power:38371 soc.culture.jewish:66747 talk.politics.guns:295385 talk.politics.libertarian:108801 talk.abortion:180408 alt.christnet:89119 On 5 Aug 1996 08:52:14 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard Schultz) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: >Your father developed an ulcer (in two weeks, yet--a medical miracle!) >: >because somebody called him and asked for your phone number? >: >Sensitive chap. Why do I think you're lying, Matt? >: Because you did not talk to him after the tube went down his throat to >: take a look at it. Is that clear enough? >Actually, it's recently been discovered that ulcers are caused by an >interesting species of bacterium that lives in the stomach lining (and >can stand the highly acidic conditions by dumping ammonia as a waste >product). More precisely, as I recall, the ulcers are caused when the >body's white blood cells try to go after these bacteria and fail. I >remember reading an article about the guy who proved it by ingesting some >of the bacteria himself, developing an ulcer, and then making the ulcer >go away by taking the appropriate antibiotic. >In any case, developing an ulcer in two weeks isn't out of the question. >What I want to know is, who used the secret ZOG "send bacteria over the >phone" weapon without clearance from the higher echelons? >----- >Richard Schultz schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il >Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065 >Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250 >----- >"I have, if you will forgive the expression, known several bastards >with very high IQs." > --J. Bronowski I am very tired of ignorant Jews playing games like this. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:48 PDT 1996 Article: 55647 of alt.revisionism From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 09:18:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4u72og$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4u7o$se4@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 06 2:20:16 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.mindport.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2362 alt.revisionism:55647 alt.conspiracy:75262 alt.politics.white-power:38372 soc.culture.jewish:66748 talk.politics.guns:295386 talk.politics.libertarian:108802 talk.abortion:180409 alt.christnet:89120 On 5 Aug 1996 13:50:48 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: On 1 Aug 1996 13:31:20 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) >: wrote: >: >Your father developed an ulcer (in two weeks, yet--a medical miracle!) >: >because somebody called him and asked for your phone number? >: >: >Sensitive chap. Why do I think you're lying, Matt? >: >: Because you did not talk to him after the tube went down his >: throat to take a look at it. Is that clear enough? >Oh, I accept that your Father may have had an ulcer, Matt. I just >don't buy your ridiculous claim that he developed it because Andrew >Mathis called him and asked for your phone number. >Bill Tell it to the jury. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:49 PDT 1996 Article: 55675 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nizkor/"Images" and Rip Van Winkle Date: Tue, 06 Aug 1996 10:29:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <4u76ui$6si@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <3205fa00.587752@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-17.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Tue Aug 06 5:31:46 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Mon, 05 Aug 1996 13:41:23 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: > > Go to Nizkor. Continue on to "FTP Files". Click up "camps". See >"auschwitz". Click it. Notice on the right side the numerical byte >contents, "7,965 k" > Click "auschwitz". > Notice long list of various topics. > Click "cyanide". > Notice "Zyklon" and click it. > See "images" and notice right hand column, "2,708 k" > Go back a step to "auschwitz". > Notice "images", see right hand column, "3,505 k" > So what are these "images"? They are scanned in material that >could include photos and or pages from books with most of it scanned >non-OCR text. > What does this mean to those accessing Nizkor files? First it >means you have to wait about five times longer to retrieve something >than if it was straight forward text. It also means you can't work it, >like "search" or something. > Nizkor boasts 7,965 kilobytes for Auschwitz. The "images" >accounts for 6,313 kilobytes. The one figure subtracted from the other >figure leaves us with 1,652 kilobytes that are more or less straight >forward. > Take into consideration the alt.revisionism headers included with >some of their info, the blank spaces, the Nizkor signatures and >headings and we may be left with say 1,000 kilobytes of actual >information in a textual format. > After you get done with that, take advantage of Nizkor's links to >Greg Raven or Ernst Zuendel and experience the ease and the directness >of it all in comparison to Nizkor. As to the copyright violations on Nizkor, the holders have to object to all, and sue all, or ignore all. They can not selectively object. So anyone can feel free to "steal" and attribution to Nizkor makes Nizkor the first and only target of a lawsuit. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:50 PDT 1996 Article: 55683 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.ins.cwru.edu!news.ysu.edu!news.cps.udayton.edu!news.conterra.com!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts Date: Mon, 05 Aug 1996 20:08:26 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4u5keo$lqu@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <31F66475.6B68@gryn.org> <4t92d2$9o5@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-16.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Mon Aug 05 1:10:00 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:35:34 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: ># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >## If you could read, you would have noticed that Hoessler said >## that everyone *in the camp (Auschwitz)* knew about the gas >## chambers. >## >## Not *everyone* in Europe, or in the world. ># I was referring to the camp. As you know there are plenty ># of claims from people who were at Auschwitz they never heard ># of such a thing. >I am not aware of this. There may have been a few, who were >there for a very short time, or during the end of the war, who >said they didn't know of the gas chambers. >Can you post plenty such claims? ># You have certainly posted more than a few of them. >Not a single one, as I recall. >You're saying I posted this, you better present my articles. >If not, you're lying and slandering. >Post these articles, or retract your claim. Your memory gets very short when you want it to be short. Do you really think I keep copies of everything you post? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:51 PDT 1996 Article: 55728 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news.bright.net!chi-news.cic.net!News1.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer blows the big one Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 09:16:59 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 619 Message-ID: <4u9n1o$14s@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u64nq$gm3@news.iglobal.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 4:18:48 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Aug 1996 00:47:54 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote: >On 8/5/96 at 0:54, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> What is interesting about the claims of mass extermination >>by gassing is that all such claims were generated by the >>Russians. It is also interesting that at no time did the >>Russians present any forensic evidence of even small time gassing >>much less mass gassing. It is even more interesting that at no >>time did the Russians provide any forensic evidence of even the >>number of bodies required to support claims of mass gassing. >Reality check: >-------------- >"...So it fell to Gerhard Riegner, the WJC's [ed.: World Jewish >Congress] representative in Geneva, to play a role in one of the most >fateful episodes of the period. >Riegner was on close terms with many members of the international >community based in Switzerland, and at the beginning of August 1942 he >received a notice from the German industrialist Eduard Schulte, who had >access to Hitler's headquarters and reported that the fu"hrer had >decided systematically to destroy all the Jews of Europe, using poison >gas for this purpose. Interestingly Eichmann and Hoess make this same report but that they had no decided which gas to use. Browse the file at the end to read of it. However, this is a fascinating report and predates every other claim. I would like to have a copy of it and the source for record purposes at least. Of course Hoess reports the decision to use gas without the knowledge of which gas to use. It is an odddly backward decision that I intend to explore more thoroughly. ....Riegner passed this information on to Stephen >Wise in the United States by means of the American Consulate and to >Sidney Silverman, member of Parliament, the WJC's chairman in London, >through British channels...When the cable readed the U.S. State >Department, Undersecretary of State Sumne Welles stopped it from being >passed on to Wise. When Wise, nevertheless, received the information >on August 28..."(1) This [1] my be the reference, but the footnote did not arrive here. >August 28, 1942. A German national, industrialist Eduard Schulte sent >word to WJC representative in Geneva. >Further, this isn't the first word to reach the West of the situation. >The Warsaw Jewish underground got word to the Polish govt-in-exile in >London "and the BBC broadcast its information on June 2, 1942, noting >that the number of Jewish victims in Poland had reached seven hundred >thousand--less than the actual number of people murdered by that >time."(2) The same with [2]. It is fascination that word of gassing reached people that early, even before the first HCN gassing experiment but when CO gassing was in full swing. So far no one has explained why Hoess did not simply copy a method equally effective as HCN, that being CO. >From Hilberg: >"Following the highly public roundups of Jews in Paris and Warsaw >during July, news of the greatest import was received in Switzerland. >As summarized in a message, dated August 8, 1942, by the chief of the >Geneva office of the World Jewish Congress, Dr. Gerhard Riegner, the >report referred to a plan discussed and under consideration in the >Fu"hrer headquarters according to which the Jews of Europe were to be >deported to the east and "exterminated at one blow" to resolve once and >for all the Jewish question in Europe. Among methods "under >discussion" for planned action in the autumn was prussic acid... Save of course this contradicts ALL THREE versions of the "discovery" of ZB by its time frame and by the discussion of using it prior to its "discovery". It looks like I am going to have to find a way to fit in a fifth column into the following to cover this version of the story. ===== A Tale of three Gassings

A Tale of Three Gassings

      What you are going to read are three different descriptions of the "discovery" of the utility of Zyklon B in mass extermination. Where you would expect to find the stories to be complimentary and to shed light upon each other we find just the opposite.
      We find unexplainable contradictions. In one case we find an unexplainable identical mistake on color based upon a common misconception. We find different people and numbers of people involved.
      We even find an absolutely impossible detail thrown into one story. It is a truly amazing comparison.
Naumann, Bernard. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger, 1966, as cited in Conot1 KL Auschwitz as seen by SS Hoess, Broad and Kremer, second edition, Museum w Oswiecimu, 1978, pp. 92-952 Nizkor Auschwitz FAQ
various sources
embedded in text
commentary
Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure proved impractical, and many were not 'selected' before they arrived in the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration camps for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners were dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers and 'commissars' were initially executed one at a time with a shot in the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall, adjacent to the Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious procedure that wore on the nerves of the SS executioners. In October 1941, however, an SS officer named Arthur Johann Breitwieser "The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11. Proctected by a gas mask, I [Höss] watched the killing myself.       Auschwitz had been receiving trainloads of Soviet commissars and other POW's who were subject to liquidation. Höss's men had shot previous shipments of Russian prisoners, but on September 3 Höss's enterprising subordinate Hauptsturmführer Fritsch Note that different people are involved in the different stories. In one case it is a Breitweiser, in the other it is Fritsch, and in another it is Höss himself.
noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing the camp laundry, was instantly knocked out when exposed to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a disinfectant. It would be by gas, but we did not know which gas and how it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure.       thought of an expedient new method based on the camp's own experience. The buildings, many of them former Polish army barracks, were full of insects, and the camp administration had previously brought in the Hamburg pesticide firm of Tesch and Stabenow to get rid of them.
      Two experts had fumigated particular buildings with a patented insecticide, Zyklon B, a crystalline form of hydrogen cyanide that turned gaseous when exposed to the air. (Höss, "Commandant of Auschwitz," 175. Interrogation of Höss, 14 May 1946, NA RG 238, M-1019/R 28/63)
      In the first story the companions of this officer are doing the delousing. In the second story, Höss and Eichmann had already decided to use a gas but strangely did not know what gas they were going to use. In the third case professional exterminators did the fumigation.
      Note also that person knocked out with one whiff of a deadly poison but recovers. This is contrary to the pathology of cyanide poisoning.
      Note further that it is not a crystaline form of hydrogen cyanide, rather liquid hydrogen cyanide absorbed into wood pulp3.
      To Breitwieser, this seemed to offer the possibility of more efficient and less time-consuming executions. After ordering the half-submerged lower level of the Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had several cans of the blue pellets,           Note that these pellets is given as blue even though, wood pulp is grey. Cyanide itself is colorless but its common name in German translates as blue acid4.
which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting execution.         On September 3 Fritsch decided to experiment. First he crammed five or six hundred Russians and another 250 sick prisoners from the camp hospital into an underground detention cell.       Note that both the number and the composition of the people differ.
which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting execution. In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over.... Then the windows were covered with earth. SS men wearing gas masks opened the Zyklon-B canisters to remove what looked like blue chalk pellets about the size of peas, creating a cloud of poison gas.
      After they left, the doors were sealed.(Höss, Commandant at Auschwitz, 173. See also Yehuda Bauer, "Auschwitz," in Jäckel and Rohwere, eds., Der Mord an den Juden, 167-68) Höss wrote later that death was instantaneous. Perhaps that was what he was told. But he was not present to witness the event; he was away on a business trip.
      Note that the first story appears to indicate dropped in from above as in some other stories while another has a "walked among" indication. In another it is thrown it.
      Note in the third story there is a clear indication of a visible cloud of gas but of course the gas is invisible.
      Note also that this separate and independent story also invents a false blue color.
      Note also Höss clearly states that he watched the instant death in one story yet another claims Höss was not even there.
Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the bodies were met by a fearsome sight. In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over...       Other sources indicate that even the next day not everyone was dead, and the SS men had to release more insecticide. Eventually all the prisoners died. When Höss returned to Auschwitz, he heard about the successful experiment. On Eichmann's next visit to Auschwitz, Höss told him about the possibilities of Zyklon-B, and, according to Höss, the two decided to use the pesiticide and the peasant farmstead for extermination.(Höss, Commandant, 175. From the History of KL Auschwitz, New York, 1982, I, 190)(Breitman, 203)       Here we have a strange set of disagreements. The first story told of immediate unconscioussness in his "discovery" but in the next part of the story we see that did not in fact happen. In the second story there was near instaneous unconsciousness as the first story begins with. The third story insists upon some being alive the next day. The first and third appear to like the two day time frame.
Men with contorted faces had locked themselves together in their death agonies, torn out each other's hair, and bitten off their fingers. Their flesh and their clothes had fused into gelatinous blobs that sometimes disintegrated when the members of the detail tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 112, 134.)           Here we have a description worthy of Steven King. Except that it has mistakes that Steven King would never make.
      Go back and read about the statement that someone was knocked out with one whiff of the gas. Note here that apparently they regain consciousness before they die. And then they have all kinds of horrible self-inflicted injuries.
      And then somehow this particular cyanide does what no other cyanide has ever done and which can not be replicated. It somehow fuses flesh and clothing into gelatinous masses.
      When impossible things are claimed to have happened rest assured someone is making up a story.

      We have two different people getting the idea to use it but in the first case his companions are charged with delousing and in the second case professional fumigators are brought in.
      In one story it is 1000 Russians. In the other case we have 750-850 Russians and sick people.
      In one case the pellets are dropped into the room, in the other men wearing gas masks are walking around in the room to spread it.
      In neither case is the room large enough to hold even the lowest number of people.
      In the first story there is a very strange pathology of cyanide poisoning (instantly knocked out but recovering later for the hair pulling and finger biting) while in the latter, they may or may not have died immediately. No horrifying details are noted.
      In the former story the impossible gelatinous blobs are included while the latter does not include them or anything out of the ordinary.
      One has to wonder how people who implicitely believe one story will deal with the other story and the conflicts between them.
Footnotes

1also found on Nizkor, sort of a holocaust database but it may be purged by the time you get there. It conflicts with the story they approve. They do not provide full attribution of the original work.
2 "The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11. Proctected by a gas mask, I watched the killing myself. In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over.... I must even admit that this gassing set my mind at rest, for the mass extermination of the Jews was to start soon, and at that time neither Eichmann nor I was certain as to how these mass killings were to be carried out. In would be by gas, but we did not know which gas and how it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure." "KL Auschwitz seen by the SS Hoess, Broad, Kremer", second edition, Museum w Oswiecimu, 1978, pp. 92-95.
3 Zyklon for Pest Control, A publication of the Degesh company which was the manufacturer of Zyklon as well as the manufacturer of stationary and portable delousing chambers that used it.
      During the war the company advertised that it's equipment had been used to delouse the possesssions of 25 million people.

Composition
      In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid hydrocyanic acid is chemically stabilized and absorbed in a porous, inert material. It is supplied in snippets or discs prepared from wood pulp. Snippets generally are preferred as in view of their larger surface they give off the gas more rapidly. Upon request also discs can be supplied. The aborbent material can easily be collected at the end of the fumigation.


4The common mis-identification is generally attributed to this common name, blausäur, blue acid. The naming is related to its reaction with iron that produces the pigment, prussian blue. Acids produce a sour (säur) taste.
From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:52 PDT 1996 Article: 55740 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Neo-Nazikor Project Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 09:41:27 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4u9off$8tv@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tbbtm$foi@networking.stanford.edu> <132306z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <4u243e$12k8@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> <4u3k2e$b82@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4u5b7f$kup@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 2:43:11 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Aug 1996 18:32:31 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) ranted: >> And as for the web, it is unclear just what the basis for these awards >>are, there are so many of them. When it comes to Nizkor it was >>certainly not for style as the webmaster and webmistress could barely >>spell HTML. It was not for design as there was none. > As a former graphic designer, I'm puzzled by Matt's comments. >Nizkor does have a design, maybe not to Matt's taste, but it is consistent. Please describe the design you see. If not, please drop the bullshit. >> It may have been for volume of content but it could not have been, and >>still can not be for organization or availability of content. > Well, my humble opinion is that it is well organised. There is an >introduction, a fast-track page for those in a hurry and a through pair of >indices of people and organisations, not to mention the FAQ files. Your opinion is humble because it deserves to be. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:52 PDT 1996 Article: 55744 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was. Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 08:51:42 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4u9li4$a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <32057386.18750351@news.pacificnet.net> <4u754r$50b@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32075903.1326219@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 1:53:24 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 14:40:40 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> But holohugging attorneys swear the latter is as good as and no >>different than the former. They all swear on a stack of Torahs that >>testimony is equal to physical evidence. Not only equal, the same as. >Holocaust eyewitness testimony is better than physical evidence. It >has to be. There is nothing else. What I find amazing is that these holohuggers can not comprehend the difference. I can realize why they do not want to admit it. But then they have to be consider unable to comprehend or lying in being unable comprehend. In either event, not very bright. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:53 PDT 1996 Article: 55752 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: I'm not a revisionist but here's a thought Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 08:59:40 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 16 Message-ID: <4u9m12$59j@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u57d7$a9d@nntp.igs.net> <32079501.994@c2.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 4:01:22 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 11:54:57 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >Jef Knight wrote: >> >> The contesting of a mass slaughter is nuts.There was for sure a mass >> slaughter, as in any war.Men are often full of hates and other[...] >> Anyway the real crux of my point is this:Many people were offed-though >> maybe not exactly 6M, And they were not ALL Jews. >This is true. The consensus is upwards of ten million, 5-6 million of >whom were jews. The consensus of holohuggers that is. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:54 PDT 1996 Article: 55762 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!jussieu.fr!univ-lyon1.fr!howland.erols.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!news.texas.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-6.sprintlink.net!news.voicenet.com!news2.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 07:34:13 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 54 Message-ID: <4u9h0r$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u8i96$sc4@news1.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 2:35:55 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2378 alt.revisionism:55762 alt.conspiracy:75469 alt.politics.white-power:38436 soc.culture.jewish:66868 talk.politics.guns:295724 talk.politics.libertarian:109072 talk.abortion:180499 alt.christnet:89333 On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 00:59:30 GMT, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On 5 Aug 1996 08:52:14 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard >>Schultz) wrote: >>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >>>: >Your father developed an ulcer (in two weeks, yet--a medical miracle!) >>>: >because somebody called him and asked for your phone number? >>>: >Sensitive chap. Why do I think you're lying, Matt? >>>: Because you did not talk to him after the tube went down his throat to >>>: take a look at it. Is that clear enough? >>>Actually, it's recently been discovered that ulcers are caused by an >>>interesting species of bacterium that lives in the stomach lining (and >>>can stand the highly acidic conditions by dumping ammonia as a waste >>>product). More precisely, as I recall, the ulcers are caused when the >>>body's white blood cells try to go after these bacteria and fail. I >>>remember reading an article about the guy who proved it by ingesting some >>>of the bacteria himself, developing an ulcer, and then making the ulcer >>>go away by taking the appropriate antibiotic. >>>In any case, developing an ulcer in two weeks isn't out of the question. >>>What I want to know is, who used the secret ZOG "send bacteria over the >>>phone" weapon without clearance from the higher echelons? >>>----- >>>Richard Schultz schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il >>>Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065 >>>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250 >>>----- >>>"I have, if you will forgive the expression, known several bastards >>>with very high IQs." >>> --J. Bronowski >> I am very tired of ignorant Jews playing games like this. >Hey Matt. Screw you and your father. >Andrew Mathis >------------------------------------- >"Hehvu z'hirin barashut..." >"Be wary of the authorities..." > Rabban Gamliel > Pirkei Avot 2:3 Are you merely ignorant or are you jewish too? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:55 PDT 1996 Article: 55769 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 07:28:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 57 Message-ID: <4u9glq$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tuuee$5k2@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4u2kka$255@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 2:30:02 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 17:08:55 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4u2kka$255@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com >(Ehrlich606) wrote: >> In article <4tuuee$5k2@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com the >Troll > drooled: >> >> > >> >On 2 Aug 1996 08:59:42 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote: >> > >> >>On 7/30/96 at 22:11, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com the Troll blathered: >> > >> >>[snip] >> > >> >>>They are ventilated with heated air, just like the Degesh >> >>>delousing chambers were. It is very old technology. >> >> How could they be ventilated with heated air? The last word I got from >> MVA is that the air was sucked into the chamber directly from the outside. >> That means the air sucked in would have been the outside temperature. >Indeed. The gas chambers of Krema II and III were ventilated with outside >air. During the _summer_ when the outside air temperature was _higher_ >than the temperature in the gas chambers. Ergo, the gas chambers were >preheated. (During the winter the gas chambers were preheated with buckets >of red-hot coke.) It is amazing what you folks will fabricate when you you are desperate. As we all know, not even a fan has been found much less the specification for the fan, much less the drawings of the preheating chamber. You folks are really amazing. >> >>Not as old as the "technology" of a mammalian (i.e., warm-blooded) >> >>body. A full gassing chamber would have a large heating component >> >>present in the fresh corpses. >> > >> > You need to learn something about turbulent mixing some day. It >> > will be good for you. >And the Troll needs to learn something about the construction and >operation of gas chambers of Auschwitz some day. Not only would it be good >for him, it would be a blessing for the rest of us. Assuming, of course, >that the Troll's endless drivel would lessen even a bit. I need to learn? YOU have accepted MY first post of the need for heated air in ventilation and then YOU invented out of whole cloth the idea that they were heated by coke. Holohuggers are such a fascinating species. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:55 PDT 1996 Article: 55773 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 08:38:35 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <4u9kph$4tt@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <5AUG199622222771@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 3:40:17 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 5 Aug 1996 22:22 MST, dmittleman@bpavms.bpa.arizona.edu (Danny Mittleman) wrote: >In article <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes... >> What is interesting about the claims of mass extermination >>by gassing is that all such claims were generated by the >>Russians. > This is factually untrue. There are many "claims" of mass > extermination by gassing made by Nazi doctors and Nazi officers to > Western historians. As both Wiesel and Wiesenthal admit there were no mass extermination gass chambers in Germany and since Neither English nor French nor American forces liberated any territory to the east of Germany, it is unclear how they could have found any physical evidence of mass extermination. Perhaps you could explain how they made claims for areas they had not access and and could not investigate. You will do this to the cheers of the crowds. > >It is also interesting that at no time did the >>Russians present any forensic evidence of even small time gassing >>much less mass gassing. It is even more interesting that at no >>time did the Russians provide any forensic evidence of even the >>number of bodies required to support claims of mass gassing. > This is immaterial as such evidence has been presented by Western > historians. Excuse me, historians were not involved in the trials and there have been damned few historians involved in the holocaust. Given the number of publications they are noteworthy by their relative absense. Further not one "historian" or any writer for that matter has presented any forensic evidence in any manner that would stand before a first year law student. But it is interesting to discover you agree with the lack of forensic evidence at the war crimes trials and thus it was all "testimony" even though it did not match the facts of gassing. You are coming along. Please continue. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 13:27:56 PDT 1996 Article: 55776 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: An SS Court States: Almost like Lt. Calley Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 08:24:07 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 41 Message-ID: <4u9jue$4ds@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tuvg9$sc3@juliana.sprynet.com> <4u2kkd$257@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4u2va1$h6n@panix2.panix.com> <4u3g3j$i36@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 3:25:50 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Mon, 5 Aug 1996 09:40:16 -0700, Marty Kelley wrote: >On Mon, 5 Aug 1996, Matt Giwer wrote: >> On 4 Aug 1996 15:56:49 -0400, rakshasa@panix.com (Kevin Filan) wrote: >> >> > But I don't see anyone claiming that My Lai never happened, that >> >Calley's confessions were obtained by torture, that photographic evidence >> >introduced into the trials were forged, and that some shadowy conspiracy >> >has responsible for perpetrating a "hoax" to smear the reputation of fine, >> >upstanding Americans. >[snip] >> >Yet when dealing with the Holocaust, something >> >which seems to me at least as well-documented as the My Lai massacre, I _do_ >> >see all these things. >> >> The forensic evidence of bodies that died of bullet wounds of US >> calibers was also introduced into evidence. That kind of evidence is >> what is lacking from the gassing evidence. In fact the Russians even >> failed to "discover" cyanide traces when they were clearly needed for >> the chain of evidence of gassing. >I'm going to do some further checking on this, but I believe you are >incorrect about the forensic evidence being _key_ to the prosecution's >case in Calley's court-martial. The case was mostly pursued through >eyewitness testimony of soldiers who witnessed and participated in the My >Lai massacre; if you can cite a source that claims otherwise, please do >so. Do your research but I never said any particular thing was "key" to anything. I pointed out that this particular bit of physical evdience was essential along with many other pieces of evidence. Witnesses can claim all they want. If you don't have bodies with wounds that confirm the testimony, you don't have jack. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 14:53:08 PDT 1996 Article: 55789 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Roman Empire was. Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 08:47:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 33 Message-ID: <4u9la9$a@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u64oq$gmb@news.iglobal.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 1:49:13 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Aug 1996 00:48:26 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote: >On 8/5/96 at 4:07, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >> >> The Roman Empire was. >>How do we know? From Rome to Western Europe, to Eastern Europe, to >>Africa, the Mideast, all around the Mediterranean, thousands of miles >>of roadways, hundreds of miles of aqueducts, hundreds of sculptures, >>murals, scores of amphitheaters, arches, law, innovations and a >>extensive written record. Tangibles. >> >> The Holocaust was. >>How do we know? Eye-witness testimony, special interpretation of >>documents. >Apples and oranges. You're comparing an entire culture and society, a >thousand years of building, arts and culture, spread over an entire >continent against 5 years of activities confined largely to one country >(Poland). >Try comparing oranges and oranges. E.g., using your ludicrous >criteria, prove the occurrence of the Plague Epidemic of the 15th >century. >Oh, and PLEASE try to do so in complete sentences. Apples and apples, (one of) the plagues of the 15th century is no different from mass extermination by gassing. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 14:53:09 PDT 1996 Article: 55791 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: speaking of "witness" evidence Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 08:15:53 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 14 Message-ID: <4u9jeu$47i@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 3:17:34 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 It was a bit of a surprise but now well known that 70% of the US Black community believes that AIDS was invented why Whites to exterminate Blacks. Given the same level of "evidence" as at Nuremberg, the case is closed, Whites are guilty as charged. Such beliefs could not be so common were there not some truth behind them. 70% of the Blacks know of it, it has to be true. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 14:53:10 PDT 1996 Article: 55794 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Extermination or Sterilization Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 08:21:10 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4u9jor$4ds@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u6rmj$t3l@juliana.sprynet.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 3:22:51 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Aug 1996 07:19:47 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote: >Why was SS doctor Clauberg at Auschwitz in 1943 allegedly doing research on sterilization methods to be >used in regard to the Jews if the SS had orders to exterminate them? So many >stories.....so many lies. What was someone allegedly doing something? I wonder why the holohuggers are allegedly screwing small farm animals for the same reasons. Is it not amazing that they hold and document a huge conference at Wannsee to create a smoking gun for the holohuggers to point to and then never another word, meeting, whatever. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 17:21:14 PDT 1996 Article: 55800 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Dachau Gas Chamber Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 09:23:02 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4u9nct$sen@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <32077F97.4F81@rio.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 4:24:45 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 17:23:35 +0000, Chuck Ferree wrote: >The Dachau Gas Chamber >Chuck Ferree writes: Some people still question the existance of a gas >chamber at Dachau. Even though I personally saw it several times in >April of 1945. I have photos of the gas chamber, I have spoken with >other witnesses, American military personell who remember seeing the >gas chamber. We were told by inmates that the gas chamber had been >used by the SS to kill people. I have read in numerous books, personal >accounts of the gas chamber being used to kill people. It happened, >this is historical fact and I wish those who speculate about these >Holocaust facts would either prove that I am mistaken, that I didn't >see a gas chamber at Dachau, which was used by the SS to kill people, >or they would shut the hell up. >Chuck Ferree Weisel and Wiesenthal both say you are full of shit. Why not contact them? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Wed Aug 7 20:05:03 PDT 1996 Article: 55825 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G. Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 06:57:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 258 Message-ID: <4u9erm$1rb@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <32042ADD.51A2@infinop.com> <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32075137.6FD4@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 1:59:02 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 10:05:43 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> First off your basic numbers are at odds with people who know >> something about cremation. Again, the internet cremation society for >> openers. >Try again, Matt. Numbers are numbers. Prove your contentions - or admit >that you're BSing to keep from admitting your ignorance. The research amounting to speaking to people with years in the cremation business and who have testified on the subject in court has been posted here. If you were so busy you missed it, go find it on DejaNews. While you are searching you should also read the discussion on the incongruous decision to build crematoria instead of faster incinerators. You have missed so much in this disucussion that it behooves you to bring yourself up to speed before engaging in the discussion. >You've joined the ranks of Al Gentile, Ken Pangborn and Tzipporah >Benavraham in being willing to distort the facts to win an argument. I have no interest in your free associations. >> Second you have not thought through the mechanics of dumping the 1 cm >> sieve "ashes" into the local lakes (without flow) and the river. (Not >> to mention using them on icy walkways and the like.) >> >Without flow?!?! More "NOT SO! NOT SO!" What conceivably is "not so" when I simply repeat statements the holohuggers have made here. >As for the mechanics involved - the daily volume wasn't *THAT* great! >Hardly a major logistics effort! In the lakes it is cumulative. On the ground it is cumulative. And it the river, now that our local river "expert" appears to be honest enough not to repeat his previous errors, the issue was NEVER logistics just as it was NEVER HCN being unsuitable. You really should find the time to follow the discussion or withdraw until you have the time. >> Third you have not addressed the ashes, clinkers and such, from the >> coke itself, given that it starts at 70 kg per body it should >> certainly have ashes on the same order as the "human" ashes thus >> doubling the real amount that are there to be found. >Here we go round again! The testimony given by one of the Denier's own >witnesses states that there was virtually no fuel needed. That the >bodies burst into flame with little effort. That claim comes from something in writing produced by the Russians who never produced the person in court. The idea that no fuel is needed is totally absurd. >Yet you claim that it took 70 Kgs of coke?!? That is the BTU equivalent of the natural gas commonly used today. Why would it take less under Nazi Physics? >BTW - even if it did, the ashes would have been a minor amount of that >and the river flow was still more than adequate to get rid of it all. You certainly know more about fluid flow than to make that claim. And then there are the lakes and the land. >> And after these obvious points you have missed the main point, no >> ashes have been reported found by any "investigator." >Except in the crematoria, of course. What a strange place to find the remains of those cremated. I should have thought of that myself. >Gee! Considering that the reports that the ashes were eliminated by >dumping in the river, the fact that no ashes were found is hardly >surprising! And as we have a very slow moving river and given what you certainly know about fluid fluw, you can not have thought about it and be making this claim. Or are you suggesting the remains float? >> Now it is clear that there were deaths from disease and they were >> cremated it is interesting that not even the coke ashes have been >> reported having been found. Of course that means no one is looking. >So? You've made very little progress so far in your contention, let >alone shown any evidence. >Why should they have looked? That is like asking how there could have been an OJ trial without bodies. If you are going to make allegations of mass murder it certainly helps to have physical evidence of mass murder. As it stands we have no physical evidence after over fifty years. And people get upset when this is pointed out. >> It has been interesting to see so many people running down the road of >> claiming the human "ashes" can not be found when in fact no one has >> been looking for any ashes of any kind. >IOW - You've just shot yourself in the foot! >If no one looked, then *YOUR CLAIM OF NO ASHES FOUND IS SHOT TO HELL AND >GONE!* You have implied in this message that there is a reason for the ashes not being found, that the river removed them. What you should have done was bypass this one or erase your earlier response before I pointed out that no one was looking. And if you review your fluid flow you will certainly agree the ashes are either still there or an estimatable distance downstream moving as a mass. That the Russians did not feel it necessary to verify the stories in 1945 speaks volumes for the basis for their case. >> Remember some day the following true statement. There has been >> exactly one examination that even mimics forensics and another one >> that is a professional embarrassment by an organization that can not >> be ascertained to even exist. >> >Please provide details, Matt. prove that you even have anything at all. Again, it has been posted many times. It is the Kracow Forensic Institute report. Try DejaNews. And note that it has one data point. >> LOOKING FOR the ashes would be elementary to a forensic investigation. >> >> But as reality would have it the fact is that any such investigation >> would be challenged as being questioning the unquestionable. Further >> what would be the value of any such investigation when reporting a >> negative result in personal attacks and professional villification. >IOW - you have no reason as to why forensic analysis was not done to >your standards. Read the thread of the discussion and get back to me. >Just the old conspiracy claim. >Prove it, Matt. Go read it first and raise any questions you have as to my position on the subject. >> Rather more interesting is what has happened. Primarily writers, but >> a few historians and one pharmacist have written about it (and if >> lucky having visited at least once what they are writing about) to >> ascertain the details of HOW a given conclusion happened rather than >> WHAT happened. >An ad hominem or 3 to avoid the fact that historians study history?!? Historians create history. Until we have time travel perfected they do not study it. >BTW - that pharmacist - I have degrees covering math, physics, >chemistry, electrical engineering and a few more disciplines, with >minors in other subjects. Yet I'm a computerist by trade. >In fact, I was working for quite a few years before I went back for >graduate work in Computer Science - mostly because there were dweebs >coming out of school with no brains and a degree in my chosen field. >So, whatever that pharmacist-turned-historian had as a degree had >nothing to do with his qualifications in his *CHOSEN* endeavors. In general, the writings are not by historians. As to it not being worth the time of a historian, consider Leuchter, even assuming his work was worthless, it resulted in NOT ONE technical rebuttal. It was all personal attack. Now I am certain you could have done as credible a job as Leuchter but if you had and followed the analysis to the same conclusion, you would have been personally attacked. None of your cross-disciplinary qualifications would have been considered. So why should a historian accept the personal and professional villification that would follow anything like a negative result? >As for your demand for forensics: >If Joe Blow gets shot in the chest by 10 gunmen, is there an autopsy >performed to assure that he didn't die of cancer? First, an autopsy IS performed. It is a required bit of evidence. Remember the OJ trial? Two slashed throats. The cause of death was obvious. Autopsies were performed. Second, there is a body to autopsy. There were no autopsies that found gassing as a cause of death. >Overwhelming volumes of evidence are found. Thousands of witnesses. We are talking about gassing. And as I corrected you, the issue is that the reports of the witnesses to gassing do not match the facts of gassing. When witnesses report the impossible it is only evidence that they were not witnesses. >But "There was no neutron analysis of the ashes" is the type of excuse >used?!?! I have never mentioned the type of analysis. I am still awaiting the ashes in the first place. >Fifty years ago, forensics was not a fraction of the science of today. >It was not called in unless the evidence was otherwise suspect. There was obvious reason to suspect the evidence as there was no evidence of mass murder or gassing until the Russians invented what little they could. >Today, for too many cases, it's called in more to provide CYA evidence >in case a lawyer tries to nitpick the situation to death. In 99% of the >cases it does little else. In 1% it exonerates the accused or puts the >clincher on the case. When there is a claim of mass murder, it is first required to produce evidence of murdered masses. >> As you should expect, it gets worse than this but enough for now. >IOW - you lost the argument, made many hand-wavings and vague >accusations and use the same tired "conspiracy" and verbal ellipses to >avoid displaying your utter ignorance. How could I have lost an argument when I was merely describing the facts? >I'm embarassed to think that you could ever have provided any real >battle, Matt. You should be embarrassed but for other reasons. Do you ever intend to get back to the first issue I disagreed with you on? That being that the descriptions of gassing do not match the facts of gassing. Why did you never respond to the the real issue? Why all of the BS instead? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 8 07:43:07 PDT 1996 Article: 55850 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Mauving right along Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 23:55:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4ubah2$sqs@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tqqo6$6m5@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 4:57:22 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 19:24:01 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4tqqo6$6m5@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com >(Ehrlich606) wrote: >[snip] >> It still comes down to the fact that P is using the testimony concerning >> the operation of one type of Krema to characterize the operation in >> another type of Krema.... >Are you suggesting that Zklon B had different physical properties when >used in Krema II as opposed to Krema V? That people, when confined in gas >chambers and exposed to equivelent concentrations of HCN, _didn't_ die in >similar amounts of time? >> ...That is not proof. I have still not seen any proof that the fans would >> kick in after 5 minutes other than the fact that you and P are obviously >> committed to this notion. >Indeed no _proof_ (i.e. hard evidence) has been offered. No claims of such >were made. What _was_ offered was an _explination_, supported by >circumstantial evidence and induction, to why it made little sense to wait >as long as indicated by Ho"ss or Nysizli for the ventilation of the gas >chamber to commence. Not only that no fan, no drawing calling for a fan and no foundation upon which to mount a fan has been found. Of course holocaust fans aren't bother by that. The missing fan appears to be in the category of their "little chimneys" which are obviously still there to find if anyone chooses to look for them -- if they were ever there. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 8 07:43:07 PDT 1996 Article: 55871 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-7.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!oleane!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 02:03:51 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 52 Message-ID: <4ubi1i$kp1@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <31f78739.5257640@news.pacificnet.net> <3200da43.5894331@news.pacificnet.net> <3208be70.5120932@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-11.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 7:05:38 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 16:08:33 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >>> >> The fires are said to have been raging all day, day after day, >>> >> week after week onto months. > >>> >The furnaces were to said have been operated continuously _periodically_. >>> >Specifically, during certain special Aktions, most notably Aktion Ho"ss, >>> >in which approximately 438,000 Hungarian Jews were deported to Auschwitz >>> >between May 15 to July 9, 1944. (cf. _Auschwitz Chronicle_, p.627; _Death >>> >Dealer_, p.45.) Of these 480,000 Hungarian Jews, about 394,000 (90%) were >>> >murdered in the gas chambers on or shortly after their arrival at >>> >Auschwitz II-Birkenau. > >>> "May 15 to July 9", '1900 to 1996', or from any 'May 1 to May 3', >>> the heat would have been tremendous in the flues. >>Hmmm. Must be glosssolalia. >>> >That the Kremas did not typically operate continuously "all day, day after >>> >day, week after week onto months" can easily be seen by fact that there >>> >were gaps in the arrival of transports to Auschwitz (cf. _Auschwitz >>> >Chronicle_) and that some of the Kremas were not on-line for significant >>> >periods of time (cf. _Anatomy_, pp.233-237). Krema IV was disabled shortly >>> >after it became operational in 1943 and was not subsequently used >>> >thereafter (cf. Ibid. p.234). Krema V, for example, was idled through much >>> >of (late) 1943 and only came on line in May of 1944 for Aktion Ho"ss (cf. >>> >Ibid. p.238). Krema I was retired in early 1943 and subsequently >>> >converted into a bomb shelter (cf. Ibid. p.159). > >>> Regardless, considerable periods of time went on with the >>> furnaces burning continuously. >>Which is quite different than your claim of "all day, day after day, week >>after week onto months." > As the typical Holocaust practices go, we have the story tellers >saying when convenient that the Cremas were operating continuously and >when convenient not so continuously. > I'm notr the one claiming "all day and all night". The Holocaust >story claims it. I just cite the claims. > The fact is, the story has the Cremas running at full blast for >days, weeks and months. Except when planes taking pictures fly over so as to avoid incriminating photographs. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 8 07:43:08 PDT 1996 Article: 55872 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,soc.history Subject: Re: Eight Questions Matt Giwer won't answer (Round 6) Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 10:14:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 25 Message-ID: <4uceqb$8kg@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u4k7m$vp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4u76oc$6si@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-34.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 08 3:16:43 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:55872 soc.history:7556 On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 13:39:00 -0800, rajiv_gandhi@bc.sympatico.ca (Rajiv K. Gandhi) wrote: >In article <4u76oc$6si@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >[Eight questions that Giwer still refuses to answer deleted.] >> And of course these are all questions that McVay refused to read the >> answers to the first time because he has me in his killfile. And he >> continues to spam the net with questions that he refuses to listen to >> the answers to. >You're not in my killfile, and I still haven't seen you answer the >questions. If you did then refer to the articles for a Deja-News search. >> McVay is a lying asshole who abuses the net for his personal reasons >> of self agrandizement. >Libel, little man. Prove or retract. Sue, asshole. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 8 07:43:09 PDT 1996 Article: 55873 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nizkor/"Images" and Rip Van Winkle Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 10:16:26 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4ucet9$8kg@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <3205fa00.587752@news.pacificnet.net> <4u76ui$6si@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <3207900B.5AB4@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-34.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 08 3:18:17 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 14:33:47 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> As to the copyright violations on Nizkor, the holders have to object >> to all, and sue all, or ignore all. They can not selectively object. >> So anyone can feel free to "steal" and attribution to Nizkor makes >> Nizkor the first and only target of a lawsuit. >As to knowing the law, I would suggest a good course or 3. >Jeez, Matt! It was mandatory for ENGINEERING STUDENTS to learn the >basics of the legal system! Where the hell did you learn yours - from >the top of a box of Cheerios? I refer to to the "star wars" and "Mr. Natural" cases for your edification. Please do not bother me again until you have reviewed them. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 8 10:31:08 PDT 1996 Article: 55897 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer Subject: Nizkor: promoter of lies Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 00:45:14 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 66 Message-ID: <4ubde4$1i4@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tcovo$s2r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4u9oam$8tv@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4uae6h$g8a@access5.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 7:47:00 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:55897 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:421 On 7 Aug 1996 11:53:53 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4u9oam$8tv@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 05:23:54 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >> >>>In article <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >>>(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >> >>>> Parliament does not apply in the US and never will. We are armed. >> >>>Is this the Mr. Giwer who never makes threats? >> >> Statement of fact, fatbroad. > It is a fact that the Constitution could not be amended to implement a >parliamentary system? That would be like lifting up the hood ornament and driving a new car under it but calling it merely amended. It would be a sham. It would be a new government were that done. It would then be up to the states to join it or not. It happened once before in the transition from the Articles of Confederation. >Going to start shooting if it is? Anyone who has ever taken an oath to support and defend the constitution has a moral right to do so. >> I am still waiting for the FBI to show up. > I will tell you something for your benefit. > Naturally before visiting any sensible agent will want to know what >level of threat you may represent. You mean he will assess my ability to mobilize half of the Marine Corp? > Of course they will have read your web pages, including your political >views on guns and Waco. They will also have read some of your more >irrational and incoherent posts. It is only the holohuggers who consider my posts to be that. Or are you folks so far gone you really believe it? > If I were an FBI agent coming to see you, I would be prepared for the >worst. The very worst. Freedom of speech violations? > I suggest that you be polite. Very polite. Also, keep your hands in >sight and don't make any sudden moves. Right. Thanks a lot. >> I presume they had a great chuckle over McVay's "complaint." > Does the fact that a Justice Department attorney was in my home >recently asking me about you change your presumption any? It was the FBI last time you told the story. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Thu Aug 8 18:23:24 PDT 1996 Article: 55940 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.cais.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 07:10:33 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 44 Message-ID: <4u9fkf$fmp@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u6432$gjs@news.iglobal.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 12:12:15 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 6 Aug 1996 00:36:50 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote: >On 8/4/96 at 6:23, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >[snip] >> Of course, you worked like hell to learn engineering but you were born >>with a knowledge of the truth of the holocaust. That means you were >>born with the knowledge of steaming, electrocution and suffocation. >>But you simply forgot about those IMT established methods over the >>years. >Forget the IMT. In fact, why don't you take the IMT transcripts, _all_ >of 'em, print 'em out on heavy construction paper in a 72 point font, >fold 'em until they're all sharp corners and stuff 'em up your wazoo. >Based upon your apparent anal-retentiveness, the fiber would do you a >world of good. That was both highly creative and of the intellectual and maturity level of holohuggers in general. >Do I have your attention? Probably not (you're probably indulging in a >rare priaptic stage induced by visions of doing the above), but it's >worth a try. _I_ don't go by the IMT findings. Never read 'em, don't >have any pressing plans to do so. I don't use 'em, don't quote 'em, >never have, probably never will. That is the only basis for all of the gassing claims. You should consider them. >Now, without citing IMT transcripts, make your case. Base your case >upon the writings of respected, mainstream Holocaust historians such as >Reitlinger, Hilberg, Yahil, Fleming, etc. They are not historians. Other than that, not a bad try. >Okay, I'm through. You can go back to diddling yourself. That idea seems to turn you on in your ignorance. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 08:02:20 PDT 1996 Article: 55983 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Here's a novel idea Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 07:12:32 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 41 Message-ID: <4ueogn$lf3@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <31FFDC56.2D6E@rio.com> <4u6lij$qf@access5.digex.net> <4u9ho3$34q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ud1b7$5u0@news.iglobal.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:14:31 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Aug 1996 15:32:55 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote: >On 8/7/96 at 14:52, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >>In article <4u9ho3$34q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >>(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >> >>My GOD, Mr. Giwer, but you're an idiot. >> >>You said: >> >> >>> It is more acceptance than correctness. Here they all are with >>> feelings of persecution and they are taking after those they suppose >>> persecute them. From birth they have been indoctrinated with "you are >>> jewish, you are persecuted" and it is difficult for them to cast off >>> that foolishness. >>> >>> Were any of them ever persecuted? Other than being gassed six times >>> that is. Of course not. >> >>What a broad and wide-reaching statement! You, I take it, have interviewed >>EVERY JEW in the world, in order to come up with this amazing assertion. >Giwer seems to overlook (one can only conclude intentionally) the >_fact_ that many of the people who oppose him are not Jewish, but >Gentile. I am not Jewish, but WASP. This _fact_ is uncomfortable for >Giwer and his lowly ilk. I am not uncomfortable with that in the least. I know how braindead WASPs are. After all, they are the lifeblood of the KKK and the neonazi movement. Were I one, I would not advertise it. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 08:02:21 PDT 1996 Article: 56000 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.cloud9.net!news.stealth.net!demos!news1.relcom.ru!EU.net!enews.sgi.com!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: What is, and what ain't Date: Thu, 08 Aug 1996 02:05:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 17 Message-ID: <4ubi4b$kp1@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <31f78739.5257640@news.pacificnet.net> <3200da43.5894331@news.pacificnet.net> <3208c2f0.6272105@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-11.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 7:07:07 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 16:41:13 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >>I take it you mean by "aechological [sic] evidence" the flues? It is >>rather self-evident, considering that the construction plans clearly >>indicated they were underground, and that eywtiness testimony indicated >>that they were underground, that they were indeed underground. > I challenged, where is the "archeological evidence", and >VanAlstine responds with "construction plans" and "eyewitness >testimony". Eyewitnesses with x-ray vision, no doubt. Of course references to eyewitnesses are an ever popular even when none has made such a claim. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 08:02:22 PDT 1996 Article: 56006 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Here's a novel idea Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 07:10:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 113 Message-ID: <4ueocl$lf3@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u9ho3$34q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ubm5p$4bt@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:12:21 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 7 Aug 1996 20:16:09 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >In article , >schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >>In article <4u9ho3$34q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >>(Matt Giwer) wrote: >[nothing of consequence, as usual] >>My GOD, Mr. Giwer, but you're an idiot. >Direct, as always, Sara.... >>aka the fatbroad with the tits >You will be contacted with regard to your FATBROAD t-shirt. >They come in one size, from Omar the Tentmaker. Ostrovsten >will fill you in. Say nothing to your neighbors; remember your >sister's cat. >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only >interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and >respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to >URL http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/ >URL http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/ >Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special >newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately >ignored. If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, >redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power, >an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings. >-- >The Nizkor Project | http://www.nizkor.org/ >-----------------------| Random Giwer Whoppers Served Here > |-------------------------------------- > http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/random-giwer-lie.pl       If you have looked at the table of death versus time you will be surprised to note there was another gas used that was reported to be nearly as effective. That gas is plain engine exhaust, carbon monoxide.
      The eyewitnesses report the time to death quite at variance with the stories of the first gassings. They rather uniformly report death from Zyklon B, hydrogen cyanide as on the order of ten to fifteen minutes. On the other hand eyewitnesses to execution by carbon monoxide report with similar uniformity death in fifteen to twenty minutes.
      Of course that is totally and completely contrary to the relative toxicity of the two materials. But those are the reports so it is necessary to look further to explain this.
      Unfortunately, there is nothing to look into. Unfortunately every place where claims of death by carbon monoxide is claimed has been destroyed.
      Most commonly the claims are made for Treblinka. Treblinka is a place that would otherwise appear to be a staging area for brining in people from one area and then separating them into groups and moving them to different destinations. This is based upon a very few aerial pictures and some few reliable descriptions.
      And the emphasis has to be upon reliable descriptions as stories about it started circulating long before the war was over. It was reported to be a place of mass extermination early on. Unfortunately that does not add to the credibility of the claims.
      There were four methods of extermination reported, electrocution, steaming, gassing, and suffocation in vacuum chambers. Testimony of all four methods was introduced at the war crimes trials. It has only been decades later that three of the four methods were dropped from consideration.
      Unfortunately for those who "dropped" three of the four explanations, they had no basis for doing so. There was no site to examine, not to mention that it was behind the Iron Curtain in Poland and examination was forbidden.
      There was no basis in "credibility" of the witness as testimony to all four methods was introduced and none rejected by the Tribunal judging the war crimes. There was close up and first person testimony to each method introduced into evidence. It was not the speculation of far away spies.
      So the other gas, carbon monoxide, we can not explain for several reasons. We do not know if it was used. We have no physical evidence to examine. It is completely up in the air as to whether or not it was used or if places like Treblinka even happened. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 08:02:23 PDT 1996 Article: 56030 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G. Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 06:59:50 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 86 Message-ID: <4uenor$89s@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <32042ADD.51A2@infinop.com> <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32075137.6FD4@gryn.org> <4u9erm$1rb@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4ucrp2$83b@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 12:01:47 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Aug 1996 13:57:54 GMT, anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote: >In <4u9erm$1rb@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) writes: >>The research amounting to speaking to people with years in the >>cremation business and who have testified on the subject in court has >>been posted here. If you were so busy you missed it, go find it on >>DejaNews. >Matt, now that I have visited your webpage and seen your picture, I >feel I know you much better. I wonder why, though, that a man with >such obvious creativity feels the need to assault women on the >internet? Life is full of mysteries, ain't it? When you take the time to trace back the first messages I received >from those women, explain to me why they opened the posts to or about me with insults towards me. That is not normal female behavior. Explain when you get the time. Why did they do an aggressive, male thing towards someone they had spent no time getting to know? Or were they just upset that they were not treated as "ladies" after what they first posted? >As far as professional cremation is concerned, I must differ with you. >You are attempting to compare apples and oranges. Modern American >mortuary practice i to cremate bodies in caskets, one at a time. You >can't compare this to multiple cremations of uncasketed bodies. No >way. That were questions asked and the replies given. 1) wood is more fuel and thus speeds the process. 2) cremation time is a direct function of the mass to burn and thus it is would be the total weight of the bodies that would increase the time to burn. Both factors mitigate towards shorter rather than longer cremation times. Quatitatively for the casket? The casket the question will have to be asked of crematoria that rent caskets, which is an option in Florida at least. But the answer for body weight was that the time to burn was determined by the amount to burn. That fits all common experience with burning things. (Put a big log on the fire.) And if any of the holohuggers were interested in research on the matter, all they would have to do is find a crematoria interested in a few experiments. One dog vice three dogs. Dog in a casket vice dog without a casket. Absent such experiment one goes with both experience, learning and knowledge of professionals all of which point towards longer times. And further you have to realize where the 20-30 minute cremations times come from. NOT from even "eyewitness" testimony but from arithmetic to check the validity of the testimony. What is going on here is analogous to a witness claiming that he drove >from NYC to Chicago in one hour, the skeptics dividing to find the miles per hour and then the supporters of the witness claiming that it is possible to drive a car 600 miles an hour. >Also, as far as ashes are concerned, remember that ash makes pretty >good fertilizer and it has been recorded that farmers regularly made >trips to Auschwitz to pick up cartloads of the stuff. Where is this recorded? You have introduced something completely new to the discussion. But then where are they in the lakes and the river? (Which is reported.) And remember that you are going to have to produce a record of HUMAN bone fragments which are far from what we would call ash. It will have to be a separate record from coke ash. If you can do so you will be the first to do so. You will also notice that the people who will be attacking me for this post will post nothing quantitative in response. That is because they are incapable of doing so. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 08:02:24 PDT 1996 Article: 56031 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 07:08:07 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 49 Message-ID: <4ueo8d$lf3@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tajct$ljp@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4tf96j$510@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <3209079f.530021274@news.zilker.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:10:05 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 21:18:18 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On Sat, 27 Jul 1996 23:55:12 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >> >>>[Followup = alt.revisionism] >> >>>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes: >> >>># Why did the nazis chose Zyklon B for the killing of >>># humans in the concentration camps? >> >>>Because it was simple and cheap. Two very good reasons. >> >>># Why didn't they chose sodium-cyanid crystals poured >>># down in sulphuric acid like they have done in execution >>># gaschambers in the USA since the twenties and still do >>># today? >> >>>Why bother? There was plenty of Zyklon-B around, and simply >>>throwing it into the chambers, via the openings, was good enough. >> >>>Why bother with a more complicated procedure? >> >>># In this case they could have saved themselves all the >>># trouble of inventing fancyfull "wiremesh columns". >> >>>Are you quoting Giwer's rubbish now? >> >>>The wiremesh columns were a very simple, very cheap thing >>>to build. >> >> It appears you are not knowledgeable enough to deal with the sulphuric acid >>claim. I warned the wrong person it seems. >> >Rather than be personal in your unfounded attack above, I suggest you >explain to Danny WHY wiremesh columns wouldn't be a very simple, very >cheap thing to build. You will, of course, substantiate your claims, >will you not? Those claims, including their very existance, are up to little boy Danny to establish. I simply point out the nonsense of his assertions. And tbey are very nonsensical and very little boy like. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 08:02:24 PDT 1996 Article: 56041 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Pellets, shower, porous pillars... Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:11:19 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 51 Message-ID: <4uerut$jvb@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tqqs7$6nn@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <320757c6.419451247@news.zilker.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 3:13:17 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 16:39:59 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >> Ehrlich606 is too scared to reply, but they look like shade on the >> side of square little chimneys. But then I was able to view the >> original this weekend. :-) >As was I -- to be precise, not the original, but Pressac's reproduction >of the original. The original is at the Auschwitz Museum. >Viewing Pressac's reproduction through a 6x loupe, I can safely say >that I agree with Mark Van Alstine's analysis. There is a rectangle >to the right of the shadowed areas which is slightly but recognizably >lighter than the Krema wall behind it. This is the front face of the >chimney. The dark areas are the left faces of the chimneys. >You can sort-of check this by pulling up Nizkor's scan of the image. >It isn't as good as having Pressac in front of you. If you want to >try, pull up: >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?camps/auschwitz/documents/pressac/insertion-columns-detail.jpg >and compare the brightness values inside the chimney face to those >outside. The pixels inside the chimney rectangle (351,240,367,256), for >example, have a median of 202; inside the Krema wall rectangle >(374,390,204,220), they have a median of 198.5. According to >Photoshop's Histogram feature. Now that you are learning to use some of the basic tools of the trade it is time you learn more. First, without the original picture, what you have posted is meaningless. You have a histogram of a halftone scan of indeterminate original resolution. Your histogram therefore includes the black halftone pattern and it not representative of the original picture. Second, medians by themselves mean nothing. The third through 55th I will leave until you have learned more. >But it's not nearly as good as looking at the dots in Pressac's >reproduction through a loupe, trust me. Or do you doubt me? If so, >find your own copy of Pressac and a loupe. I would have scanned the >individual dots in his reproduction but I didn't have access to a >scanner with ultrahigh resolution, I'm afraid. You are looking at the halftone, you idiot. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 08:02:25 PDT 1996 Article: 56042 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: An SS Court States: Almost like Lt. Calley Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:24:21 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 50 Message-ID: <4uesnb$bqv@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tuvg9$sc3@juliana.sprynet.com> <4u2kkd$257@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4u2va1$h6n@panix2.panix.com> <4u3g3j$i36@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4u9jue$4ds@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 3:26:19 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 7 Aug 1996 13:23:28 -0700, Marty Kelley wrote: >On Wed, 7 Aug 1996, Matt Giwer wrote: >> On Mon, 5 Aug 1996 09:40:16 -0700, Marty Kelley >> wrote: >[Matt Giwer wrote] >> >> The forensic evidence of bodies that died of bullet wounds of US >> >> calibers was also introduced into evidence. That kind of evidence is >> >> what is lacking from the gassing evidence. In fact the Russians even >> >> failed to "discover" cyanide traces when they were clearly needed for >> >> the chain of evidence of gassing. >> >> >I'm going to do some further checking on this, but I believe you are >> >incorrect about the forensic evidence being _key_ to the prosecution's >> >case in Calley's court-martial. The case was mostly pursued through >> >eyewitness testimony of soldiers who witnessed and participated in the My >> >Lai massacre; if you can cite a source that claims otherwise, please do >> >so. >> >> Do your research but I never said any particular thing was "key" to >> anything. I pointed out that this particular bit of physical evdience >> was essential along with many other pieces of evidence. Witnesses can >> claim all they want. If you don't have bodies with wounds that >> confirm the testimony, you don't have jack. >On the other hand, no matter what bullet wounds were in the bodies, the >forensic evidence in the Calley case would have said very little about >what orders Calley gave, the behavior of his men, etc--all that came from >eyewitness evidence that corroborated the physical evidence. With ONLY >physical evidence, you also don't have jack. And WITHOUT physical evidence, as with the gassing stories, you have nothing either. What point are you trying to make here? There must first be physical evidence which can either stand alone or with corroborating testimony. With so many millions of murders you would think that there would be the first bit of physical evidence OF THE STORY AS IT IS TOLD. But there is none whatsoever. It is all quite interesting. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 08:02:26 PDT 1996 Article: 56043 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: "Ash Gets In Your Eyes" - Giwer's New Theme Song Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:03:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 145 Message-ID: <4uev0i$drk@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <320642ED.7639@unb.ca> <4u9jf5$7ar@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4ucsdv$esd@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:05:22 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Aug 1996 14:09:03 GMT, anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote: >In <4u9jf5$7ar@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) >writes: >previous discussion on the amount of ash snipped >>>Wow. No problem to get rid of that ash at all. >>> > Exactly true, Mr. E: >ASHES > What became of the ashes of the victims at Auschwitz and > other extermination camps that cremated the bodies. Of > course this is a disrespectful and nasty question, since it > suggests that there is some deception taking place, but let's > consider it anyway. The > inference is that whatever amount of oyster-colored ash was > found by liberation forces was not "enough". > First, I'd like to point out that ALL bodies at > Auschwitz were not cremated. There were also mass graves > and, in fact, the decomposing bodies in the swampy land > surrounding Birkenau caused many problems not the least of > which was poisoning the water table (and thereby, the > drinking water for Birkenau and the surrounding area). > However, the land was not swampy in the vicinity of > Auschwitz I or III and there mass graves were utilized. > However, for the bodies that WERE cremated, the ash was > well disposed of. > > Consider these facts: > If you assume a (generous) average of 1 kg of ash per body, and > assign an arbitrary specific density to ash of 1.0 (i.e., > equal to water), then 1 kg of ash will occupy 1000 cubic > centimeters, which is equal to a cube that's 10 cm on a > side. There are 1000 such cubes in a cubic meter (1 cubic > meter of water = 1000 liters = 1 metric tonne), so each > cubic meter would hold the ashes of 1,000 people. 1,000 > cubic meters would contain the ashes of 1,000,000 people > (1,000 x 1,000). > A U.S. football field is 50 yds wide by 100 yds long. > That's close enough to the same area as a 50 meter by 100 > meter plot for our purposes, so: 50 x 100 = 5000 sq. > meters = 1 football field. Put 2 football fields > side-by-side, for 10,000 sq. m. > > 1,000 cubic m. 1 cubic m. > _______________ = __________ = 10 cm depth > 10,000 sq. m. 10 sq. m. > > 2.54 cm = 1 in. Call it 2.5 cm/inch, even-- 10 cm = 4 in., > so you could spread the ashes of 1,000,000 people 4" deep > over two football fields. > A Cat D-9 operator would have no problem moving such > small amounts--especially over a four-year period-- Not > much more than a small rise on the landscape. We also know > that thousands of acres around Auschwitz were "under the > plow," and ashes make a good soil amendment. > Looking at it from another perspective: > 1,000 cubic m. = 10 m. x 10 m. x 10 m., or a 10 meter cube. > 10 m. is approx. = to 33', thus you could put the ashes in > a hole in the ground that's 33' long, 33' wide and 33' > deep. > > Not a big deal. >-- >Annie Alpert > The Nizkor Project: >Fighting hate and anti-Semitism on the Internet > * * * On the web * * * > WWW.Nizkor.org Why are you wasting your time with this crap when the internet cremation society has a website and has the raw data you are guessing at in a FAQ? The link has been posted here many times. ======== Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Another gas chamber From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found powdered cyanide. "Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the dummy shower heads. In the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to control inflow and outtake of gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to generate the lethal smoke. From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory." IMT XXX - p.470. Amazing what you can find if you look around. And holohuggers are going to believe it. ======== Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: How many tons of bone fragments? From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Date: Sun, 16 Jun 1996 02:31:58 GMT http://www.cremation.org:80/faq.shtml Dec 26, 1995 @ Q. What's left after a body is cremated? It's ash, but what size are the pieces? Are they fine, like dust, or larger? Can you still see pieces of bone or teeth? A. Tony, After the cremation process is complete, all that is left is very brittle bone fragments. Many of the bones are still distinguishable although not fully in tact. Technically, there are no ashes left at all but the term "ashes" is used to describe what is referred to as cremated remains or cremains. The pieces of bone fragments are then processed into a fine powder and placed in the urn selected. What remains after the cremation process is approximately 5 to 7 pounnds of cremated remains. 800,000 at Treblinka x 5 lbs = 4,000,000 lbs = 2000 tons of bone fragments missing. Buried in a 5 acre area. 400 tons of bone fragments per acre, approximately 15 pounds of bone fragments per square foot. 1,200,000 at Auschwitz. 3000 tons of bone fragments capable of passing through a 1 centimeter mesh. My thank again to Van Alstine for this website. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 08:02:27 PDT 1996 Article: 56047 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:49:40 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 56 Message-ID: <4ueu6p$kcd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 1:51:37 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 8 Aug 1996 00:53:30 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) babbles: ># What is interesting about the claims of mass extermination ># by gassing is that all such claims were generated by the ># Russians. >And the Poles, and the Germans, and the Jews... ># It is also interesting that at no time did the ># Russians present any forensic evidence of even small ># time gassing much less mass gassing. >False; the ventilation grills of Krema III were tested in >1945 and cyanide compounds were discovered on them. >Why do you lie so much? It is interesting that you felt compelled to make that up. Perhaps you can point to Nizkor or any other site that supports it? >Do you have any idea what a service to the holohugger >community you are? I'm going to make an American (no, >make that a world-wide) hero from you, Giwer. Giving you folks the opportunity to make up claims about the vacuums I point to? >I'm going to take all the rubbish and lies you're posting, >and make sure, whenever I'm writing or talking about >Holocaust deniers, to mention them, and to mention that >they came from the most active denier on the internet. >Like this one. Like the one about Belsen being in Poland. >Like the one about the mention of gas chambers and gassing >cellar in the documents meaning nothing, because they were >due to "morbid humor" of some SS-man. Like your jokes about >the photo of the women being shot. >You're going to be a BIG hero, Giwer. >And I will also be sure to remind everybody of your claim >to have an IQ of 163. That's the best one. Sorry, but as you know, there was no such Russian forensic search made much less was it positive. What depths of creativity will you next sink to? Or, what is the URL? Please do not forget to post it, holofabricator. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 08:02:28 PDT 1996 Article: 56050 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!news.be.innet.net!INbe.net!news.nl.innet.net!INnl.net!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.sgi.com!enews.sgi.com!lll-winken.llnl.gov!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 07:42:24 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 35 Message-ID: <4ueq8l$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u8i96$sc4@news1.panix.com> <4u9h0r$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ubqq0$ndv@news1.panix.com> <4ubti0$pkf@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:44:21 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2416 alt.revisionism:56050 alt.conspiracy:76097 alt.politics.white-power:38644 soc.culture.jewish:67217 talk.politics.guns:296636 talk.politics.libertarian:109850 talk.abortion:180840 alt.christnet:90014 On 8 Aug 1996 05:22:08 GMT, fische11@ix.netcom.com(some bizzare guy on the internet) wrote: >Whoever says the holocaust doesn't exist can talk to my grandmother. >She was put in a concentration camp, saw her entire vardo (clan) of 50 >people reduced to ashes, and raped numerous times by German officials. >Fuck up. > Robert Rothenbrew > http://www.netcom.com/~fische11/ > I refuse to engage in a battle of the wits with the unarmed. It is fascinating that you would invite people to contact your grandmother without providing a means to do so. I presume you have at least forwarded her name to "Spielberg's List." If not, it would be a good thing for you to do. As you may know, us skeptics NEVER expect any of the raw interviews or uneditted transcripts to be released. From what we have now, we know that the raw information is the death of the gassing stories. The raw statements are always agains the gassing stories. As you have grossly overstated, all her clan did was die of disease, she saw no burning unless other testimony is false. One would hope that the US government contribution had a string requireing full and immediate disclosure without editting in any manner. It will be a revisionist treasure trove. But of course, that will not be a condition. Holohuggers know better than to agree to that sort of thing. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 08:02:29 PDT 1996 Article: 56051 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 07:42:45 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4ueq9b$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ub4qi$apk@shiva.usa.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:44:43 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2417 alt.revisionism:56051 alt.conspiracy:76098 alt.politics.white-power:38645 soc.culture.jewish:67218 talk.politics.guns:296637 talk.politics.libertarian:109853 talk.abortion:180841 alt.christnet:90015 On 7 Aug 1996 22:20:02 GMT, hkatz@earth.usa.net (Harry Katz) wrote: >In article <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) whines: > I am very tired of ignorant Jews playing games like this. >And the rest of us are very tired of Mr. Giwer's incessant >Jew-baiting. >-- >Harry Katz >Do not buy stolen goods. > -- The Wit and Wisdom of the Talmud, Madison C. Peters, ed. A wise man can not be baited. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 10:52:36 PDT 1996 Article: 56056 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: An SS Court States: Almost like Lt. Calley Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:29:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 68 Message-ID: <4uet10$bqv@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4uc1go$3i3@news.iglobal.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 3:31:28 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Aug 1996 06:29:44 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote: >On 8/7/96 at 8:28, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On 6 Aug 1996 00:44:56 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote: >> >>>On 8/5/96 at 0:42, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >> >>>> The forensic evidence of bodies that died of bullet wounds of US >>>>calibers was also introduced into evidence. That kind of evidence is >>>>what is lacking from the gassing evidence. In fact the Russians even >>>>failed to "discover" cyanide traces when they were clearly needed for >>>>the chain of evidence of gassing. >>>> >>>> Imagine the prosecutor at the OJ trial trying to prove their throats >>>>were cut without any forensic evidence of cut throats. >>>> >> >>>Purchase a large piece of beef, e.g., a brisket. In private, fire a >>>round into it. Then make a large laceration in it. >> >>>Burn it to ash. Prove you shot and cut it. >> >>>This attempt's not even up to your usual lax standards. >> >> Despite the beliefs of holohuggers, bodies are not burned to ash with >>the application of a Bic lighter. Even crematoria to not burn bodies >>to ash. www.cremation.com if I remember correctly. >In writing the above, and in proof-reading it, and now in re-reading >it, I recall no mention of Bic lighters. Please point out where I >mention them. You would be advised to read the conference before you jump in. I have posted genuine eyewitness testimony as to the existance of a special Nazi method of burning bodies without fuel. Would you prefer a kitchen match instead? You newcomers are advised to read a few months of history before you jump in. >> But do not give up, there are two or three major claimants that >>exactly that is possible in the holohugger camp. >> >> Maybe they will come forward and make their case just in the nick of >>time to make you look like less of an idiot. >Were I an idiot, I was not aware that was in question. I would need only to point to you for comparison. >After such comparison was made, I could easily obtain a scholastic >scholarship to the university of my choice, as it seems the difference >between your mental ability and brain-death is as great as the interval >between infinity & infinity + 1. Not eve clever much less creative. >Now that we've insulted one another, perhaps you can direct your >attention to the grist of my post...and answer it in a civil fashion. When you come up to speed on the discussion, get back to me. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 10:52:37 PDT 1996 Article: 56072 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 06:59:57 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 16 Message-ID: <4uenp3$89s@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4skapj$6t4@netnews.upenn.edu> <4t7fks$okr@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4tbl0n$lo4@shiva.usa.net> <4tclc8$h52@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4tipk7$o0p@shiva.usa.net> <4tkdof$ife@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <31FE1AD7.218D@gryn.org> <4tn6mq$6q1@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <474_9607312106@tor250.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 12:01:55 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 31 Jul 96 20:13:10, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote: ><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +> ><+[Holocaust revisionism] [Wed 31 Jul 96 04:48][Wed 31 Jul 96 14:05][0]*> > mnc> Nor do I have to note that your blood sugar swings cause > mnc> great changes in mood and lucidity. >My blood sugar is doing quite nicely, Matt. >My mood doesn't change very much at all. How would you know? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 10:52:38 PDT 1996 Article: 56073 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 07:01:35 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 27 Message-ID: <4uens5$89s@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tn807$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <476_9607312109@tor250.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 12:03:33 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 31 Jul 96 20:23:40, alec@gryn.org (Alec Grynspan) wrote: ><*[*] [*] [mgiwer@ix.netcom.com] [All] [ALT.REVISIONISM] +> ><+[Holocaust revisionism] [Wed 31 Jul 96 05:10][Wed 31 Jul 96 14:05][0]*> > mnc> I am beginning to think you have given up your engineering > mnc> honesty on this subject. >I never give up my honesty. My posts may cause you to believe I've >said one thing when I said another - but that's old legerdemain >stuff. > mnc> You have refused to come back to the original issue of the > mnc> descriptions of ZB gassing not matching HCN gassing. >But - that has already been settled. >You lost that argument. I have posted three distinctly different "eyewitness" reports of gassing that do not describe HCN gassing, none of which anyone, inluding you, has addressed. Just what do you think you are talking about? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 10:52:39 PDT 1996 Article: 56075 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 07:56:34 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <4uer36$ndi@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <31F66475.6B68@gryn.org> <4t92d2$9o5@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4u5keo$lqu@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4uapdi$sa3@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:58:30 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 7 Aug 1996 20:05:22 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >>On Fri, 26 Jul 1996 18:35:34 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >>>Not a single one, as I recall. You're saying I posted this, you better >>>present my articles. If not, you're lying and slandering. Post these >>>articles, or retract your claim. >> Your memory gets very short when you want it to be short. Do you >>really think I keep copies of everything you post? > Ever hear of DejaNews, Matt? It's been mentioned several times recently >on this newsgroup. The URL is http://www.dejanews.com and you should contact >your ISP if you don't have Web access. I am not only aware of it but (AS YOU KNOW) I have referred many [people to it who refuse to go to it. So what, given what you know, is your point? > Of course, that assumes that you actually *want* to do that and that >you are not a dishonest troller, which of course, you are. > Derek >-- >Derek Bell dbell@maths.tcd.ie WWW: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~dbell/index.html > "Donuts - is there _anything_ they can't do?" - Homer Simpson From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 10:52:39 PDT 1996 Article: 56076 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 07:57:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 26 Message-ID: <4uer5l$ndi@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4t92d2$9o5@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4u5keo$lqu@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:59:49 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 7 Aug 1996 21:30:38 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >Giwer claimed I posted something. When asked to present >it, he writes: ># Your memory gets very short when you want it to be ># short. Do you really think I keep copies of everything ># you post? >Listen, you senile piece of dreck. If you're accusing me >of posting something, you better have the proof. Is that another threat? >You bloody idiot. Look up dejanews, if you can't recall >where I posted it. That is what I suggested to you so that you may learn what has actually gone on. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 10:52:41 PDT 1996 Article: 56077 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: ethnic groups Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:00:48 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 43 Message-ID: <4uerb6$ndi@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tusng$bk1@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ud9sf$45a@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 3:02:46 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Aug 1996 17:58:39 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >> The amusing thing about the US law is not that it can confiscate the >property >> (or cash) that arose from the crime but rather that property that was at one >> time owned by a drug dealer can be confiscated from an innocent present >owner. > The Supreme Court has held that the property of a bona fide purchaser >for value cannot be confiscated. Nor can property transferred to an innocent thrid >party by court order. >> If you do not mind a hypothethical case. > I do mind hypothetical cases. They mean notheing other than your >opinion. Where are the real cases? >> And the worst of it is that it has been effectively approved by our >Supreme >> Court. > The citation for this is? Why do not the people prosecuting such cases >know about these decisions? >> >> This may appear extreme to the point of ridiculous but then a single >property >> was taken from the present owner because three owners back it was bought >wtih >> drug money. > Is this your report -- which lacks credibility -- or a real court case? If the >latter what is the citation? > Come on Matty poo, where are the cases You are a holohugger who does not know the difference between testimony and physical evidence. Why would anyone credit you with knowledge of the law? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 10:52:42 PDT 1996 Article: 56080 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Slithery Nizkor/Keren stuff Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:16:02 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4ues7o$jvb@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> References: <3200df2d.7152553@news.pacificnet.net> <3201769c.45919277@news.pacificnet.net><3200df2d.7152553@news.pacificnet.net> <3201769c.45919277@news.pacificnet.net> <4ttbus$sju@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u69sc$qto@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net><3200df2d.7152553@news.pacificnet.net> <3201769c.45919277@news.pacificnet.net><3200df2d.7152553@news.pacificnet.net> <3201769c.45919277@news.pacificnet.net> <4ttbus$sju@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u69sc$qto@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4u7jdi$bqi@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4ubr7j$1p2c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <3209f196.2783763@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 3:18:00 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 13:56:17 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: >>That's a good point, Bill and one I am sure all ZOG operatives are memorizing >>as we speak, err... write. > The best McFee can do? Evidentely. Actually if you give McFly one response a week he will waste hours sending hundreds of mindless messages in that week to you and about you. You only need to send him one message a week to do your part in keeping him off the streets and reducing the crime rate. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 10:52:42 PDT 1996 Article: 56081 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: An SS Court States: Almost like Lt. Calley Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:25:17 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 20 Message-ID: <4uesp4$bqv@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u3g3j$i36@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4ud0ji$45a@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 3:27:16 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Aug 1996 15:20:18 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> failed to "discover" cyanide traces when they were clearly needed for >> the chain of evidence of gassing. > I would have written some response to this but since the term "chain of >evidence" does not appear in Black's Law Dictionary or Wigmore on Evidence or >Feldman's Pennsylvania Trial Guide and I have never heard it used, it makes a real >response very hard. > Matty poo seems to be making up his law again. > --YFE Of what value the opinion of someone who can not tell the difference between a body with a fatal bullet wound and testimony? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 10:52:43 PDT 1996 Article: 56082 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: I'm not a revisionist but here's a thought Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:59:29 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 29 Message-ID: <4ueup7$drk@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u57d7$a9d@nntp.igs.net> <32079501.994@c2.org> <4u9m12$59j@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ud9jh$8e8@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:01:27 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Aug 1996 17:53:53 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 11:54:57 -0700, Rich Graves wrote: >: >This is true. The consensus is upwards of ten million, 5-6 million of >: >whom were jews. >: >: The consensus of holohuggers that is. >Yup. The consensus of holohuggers, which is the term Matt uses to refer >to almost every historian who's ever studied the issue, along with the >vast majority of human beings on the planet--everybody, in fact, except >a small body of nuts, antisemites and nazis, who present no evidence and >make no arguments, but insist that we believe in a gigantic, overarching, >perfectly efficient conspiracy which has deceived us all for fifty years >BECAUSE-THEY-SAY-SO! I use the term to everyone who, like a creationist, appears otherwise sane but has a total belief in gassing without the slighest bit of physical evidence. But you know that, holohugger. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 10:52:44 PDT 1996 Article: 56083 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: demography, the missing jews Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:50:51 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 25 Message-ID: <4ueu92$kcd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u74of$sv1@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4ud32c$45a@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 1:52:50 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Aug 1996 16:02:20 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> Neither the US nor Russia keep statistics by religion so there is no >> way to find out what happened in either country. > Matty poo is making it up again. > Under the Truman Directive (1946) and the various DP Acts (1948 and >1950) statistics by religion were kept. It should be noted that the U.S. kept such >statistics for quota immigrants as well, until the 1960's. They still keep such >statistics for thos admitted as political refugees if it is relevant to refugee status. > The U.S.S.R. always issued separate passports for Jews which were >considered a "national ethnic group." I have seen a passport issued in 1995 with >that designation. > Gee, Matty poo, do you ever get tired of being wrong? > --YFE Do you have URLs are is this more holofabricator trash? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 11:45:58 PDT 1996 Article: 56086 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: the Zyklon B graph - zb.jpg (0/1) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 04:56:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 4 Message-ID: <4ueghh$cra@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-30.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 08 11:58:25 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Here is the graph that was under discussion two weeks ago. As the sourcing is incomplete, it is useful only as one of maybe two other quantitative posts on the material. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 11:46:00 PDT 1996 Article: 56087 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!gatech!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:27:49 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 13 Message-ID: <4uf0ea$kno@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ue4vc$ati@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:29:46 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Aug 1996 01:41:00 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> I am very tired of ignorant Jews playing games like this. > Watch it, Matty poo. We might start calling you and asking for your >son's phone number. > What happens if we ask for your daughter's number? Diverticulitis? When you ask for my daughter's number you are ready for the grave. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 13:44:33 PDT 1996 Article: 56093 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news2.cais.net!news.cais.net!world1.bawave.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!zdc!news4.noc.netcom.net!noc.netcom.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Racists in Georgia Date: Wed, 31 Jul 1996 08:18:35 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4tn4ub$4dl@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4thruk$k9c@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4tjeal$rhv@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Jul 31 1:19:23 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 29 Jul 1996 22:35:01 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> Speaking of racists, the Olympic bombing suspect has been identified as a >> white American male based upon a phone call. > Matty-poo is apparently attempting to prove that eye-wtinesses are >worthless again. His technique is based on his distorted and dishonest repetition of >what he claims to have seen or read. When it is conclusively debunked he then >jumps up and says: "See. All eyewitnesses are worthless because I am a liar." > For the record, the FBI description of the bomber as "white" is based upon >eyewitness testimony about him, not the telephone call. You are truly whacked out as there was no claim whatsoever that there was any eyewitness at the time I posted the message you are responding to. There was also no such claim as of 2am 7/31. You really should find the time to keep up with the news. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 13:44:35 PDT 1996 Article: 56097 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: the Zyklon B graph - zb.jpg (1/1) Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 04:56:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 1142 Message-ID: <4uegil$cra@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-30.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 08 11:59:01 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 begin 644 zb.jpg M_]C_X``02D9)1@`!`@$`2`!(``#_[0"I061O8F5?4&AO=&]S:&]P,BXU.@!( M````2```.$))30/M```````0`$@````!``$`2`````$``3A"24T#\P`````` M"```````````.$))32<0```````*``$``````````CA"24T#]```````$@`U M`````0`M````!@```````3A"24T#]P``````'```____________________ M_________P/H``#_[@`.061O8F4`9(``````_]L`0P`)!@<'!P8)"0D)#@H* M"PX1#PX.#1(:&A40%1@9("`>'Q\>(B,H*24D)24A)RLL+"TO-#0T,RXT-#0T M-#0T-#0T_\``"P@"V0(O`0$1`/_$`-(```$%`0$!`0$!``````````,``0($ M!08'"`D*"Q```00!`P($`@4&!@@'`PUA`0`"$0,$(1(Q!4%181,B<8$R!A21 MH;%"(R054F(S-,%R@D,')9((4]'P8W,U%N&B\;*#)D235&1%PJ-T-A<8TE7B M9?*SA,/3=>/S1B>4I(6TE<34Y/2EM<75Y?569G:&EJ:VQM;F]C='5V=WAY>G MM\?7Y_HJ: MJKK*VNKZ_]T`!`!&_]H`"`$!```_`/<4DDTJJ[J6"W+&*;VC((D5_G$?!/5U M'!NR7X]=[77,^DPX#\JC]IQ+7"L75OVY@80'`^/")_;-$_5=VDG[10!X_3"U\=EEN8^S*I94['>!C M$=PYD?FY%^':REF9CY1KL8T&!3$AW/)"CF_6#+PKL??74]MV M:,8L89+6NX,\3XA,>N]2=?UME=%,=,+8+B9L!;N^6BGB?6)_4[6LPZV@MPV9 M3_4\7\-_`ZH+?K1DY#>BG%QF._:37Z6/(]-S!KP#(D*YD=4ZEBU,^TT4UO%% MEKR'R"YI^BT:'4=UG7]=SH.+[&'GVMF)\$]/6,7IUG7\DXI8_ M'NK;80\GU7.&D`\ MFWJ-!MK<'R6PV8(^:K?VQW>G]7Q8TN:\7T@.82#!>)X\4V/:[+^M]=?3[758 M^%61F5OD!Y=]&`>X\5>S/K!]B>PWXSF5OR6X[9=[SN,!T>"K8G7,EO5NOG+V MMP^G"L#:=0-I=,1R4:OZST?9G7OH=M&,,D>G[@6GL3'/=:?2\[]H4FUH8:S! 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But the moderately intelligent give Mr. Giwer the fits. More than a match for a snipe hunter like you. You do nothing but nip at my heals. Otherwise you are ignored. Like McFly. You will note that I respond to perhaps one in ten of your posts at most. That is all you are worth at best. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 13:44:37 PDT 1996 Article: 56102 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 10:22:08 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4uf3k7$36d@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u7v5l$f7d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3208abcf.351080@news.pacificnet.net> <3209ea0c.853809@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 3:24:07 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 00:17:28 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes: ># Whereas the atomic bomb was an improvement, as far as being ># able to destroy, and wasn't developed until a certain ># time, at which time they used it, Zyklon B was there ># already. It is also evident, going by Holocaust facts, >that ># carbon monoxide was used with relative ease compared to >what ># the Germans had to go through with Zyklon B. >Hardly. Bottled CO was rather expensive and difficult to >ship around in large quantities. Engine exhaust caused >problems (we have the report about an explosion taking >place in Chelmno), engines would break down, and it is >not clear how it would apply for the huge gas chambers >of Birkenau. >Zyklon-B was available at large quantities; it was cheap; a >very small amount can kill thousands of people; and the SS >had a great deal of experience with using it. What an asshole. You have been the strongest supporter of CO at Treblinka and suddenly when it is not the hottest thing since sex in another place you are all over it. This is the usual holohugging crap. Used Russian and German for that matter tank engines were as available at A-B as at Treblinka. Deal with reality, not with the spin you think you can put on it. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 13:44:38 PDT 1996 Article: 56103 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: speaking of "witness" evidence Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 10:23:43 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 29 Message-ID: <4uf3n6$36d@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u9jeu$47i@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4udgjs$9l8@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 3:25:42 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Aug 1996 19:53:32 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: It was a bit of a surprise but now well known that 70% of the US Black >: community believes that AIDS was invented why Whites to exterminate >: Blacks. >: >: Given the same level of "evidence" as at Nuremberg, the case is >: closed, Whites are guilty as charged. >: >: Such beliefs could not be so common were there not some truth behind >: them. 70% of the Blacks know of it, it has to be true. >Cool, Matt. When you find the official documents outlining this >plan, and when government agents start confessing en mass, you let >us know, okay. >Until then, here's a nice puppy for you to play with... >Bill Bill is a puppy? I have only pointed out what surveys have uncovered. Do you have a problem with that? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 13:44:38 PDT 1996 Article: 56104 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: McFly Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 10:24:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 5 Message-ID: <4uf3pa$36d@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 3:26:50 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 His only skill appears to be finding the workd ausrotten in a dictionary. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 16:23:48 PDT 1996 Article: 56126 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!spool.mu.edu!daily-planet.execpc.com!news.sol.net!uwm.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 05:13:47 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 265 Message-ID: <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u2gvo$ss@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3204dfdc.490260@news.pacificnet.net> <4ucq11$4ef@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-30.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 08 10:15:47 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Aug 1996 13:28:01 GMT, s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan Schneider) wrote: >In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) >wrote: >> >>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes: >> >># The Peters' report mentions 1 to 2 hours, by Mr.Keren/Nizkor >># relating, which was for prussic acid, no mention of Zyklon B, >># which the related material Mr.Keren/Nizkor gave included the >># statement that grain size was unknown. Who knows? Maybe it >># was liquid. >> >>No, it explicitly says Zyklon was used. Look it up. It's >>on the web. >> >>BTW, the conjecture made by "ehrlich" is irrelevant; the >>Paters-Rasch paper is from 1941. >Not to mention, that liquid hydrocyanic acid explodes, when contacted with >oxygen and alcalics. Somebody here doubting that concrete is very alcalic? It is interesting to read that when cans of ZB were opened they exploded. That does sort of make the entire use of ZB rather worthless, does it not? Is there anything else you would like to add to this discussion? Such as the english word for alcalic? In your copious free time, browse this. HCN Technical

Hydrogen Cyanide technical information

Chemical composition
HCN
Names
hydrocyanic acid, prussic acid, hydrogen cyanide
Boiling point
25.7C/78.3F at 760 mm Hg
Specific gravity
0.69 at 18C/64F
Vapor density
0.947 (air = 1)
Melting point
-13.2C/8.2F
Vapor pressure
750mm Hg at 25C/77F 1200mm Hg at 38C/100F
evaporates easily
Solubility in water
100%
Appearance
clear
Color
colorless to slightly bluish depending upon concentration
Odor
bitter almond, very mild, non-irritating (odor is not considered a safe method of determining presence of the poison)
Hazards
  1. Unstable with heat, alkaline materials and water.
  2. Will explode if mixed with 20% sulfuric acid.
  3. Polymerization (decomposition) will occur violently with heat, alkaline material or water. Once started, reaction is autocatalytic and uncontrollable. Will explode.
  4. Flash point: -18C/0F
  5. Autoignition temperature: 538C/1000F
  6. Flammable limits in air (by volume): lower 6%, upper 41%
Source: Hydrogen Cyanide , Dupont Publication 7-83.

Commercial sources
The Dictionary of Chemical Compounds
"Derivation: (a) By catalytically reacting ammonia and air with methane or natural gas. (b) By recovery from coke oven gases. (c) From bituminus coal and ammonia at 1250 degrees".

Toxicity by inhalation
Concentration (mg/m3) Effect
300 Immediately lethal
200 Lethal after 10 minutes
150 Lethal after 30 minutes
120-150 Highly dangerous (fatal) after 30-60 min.
50-60 Endurable for 20 min. - 1 h without effect
20-40 Light symptoms after several hours

      Note these are rules of thumb and are not to be taken as absolutes. Death is caused by a total amount per kilogram of body weight that enters into the body. In light of that, simply examing the concentrations and times reveals there is no direct relationship between them.
      Many factors could cause this as HCN interferes with the nervous system that of course controls breathing.

Means of toxicity


      Cyanide binds cytochromes much in the same way that oxygen does, by conjugating at its open site. Unlike oxygen, cyanide cannot receive electrons from cytochrome a3.

           
   -:C=N: (note - actually a triple bond between C and N)
     |
---Fe(+2)--
     |
    His

      With the ETS deprived of its electron "sink", the whole system backs up. Without the ETS, oxidative phosphorylation will dissipate the H+ gradient, ATP synthesis will stop, and the cell will die. Cyanide binds cytochromes more tightly than oxygen, and as a result is lethal at very low concentrations, at about 300 ppm. The effect also occurs at hemoglobin, as cyanide will bind to that too, preventing oxygen from reaching cells. In essence, this is how cyanide kills cells and whole organisms.

Hemoglobin
      Cyanide is most effective on warmblooded animals such as mammals, but is less effective on insects. While insect mitochondria and vertebrate mitochondria are not radically different, one thing is: Hemoglobin. Vertebrates carry oxygen in their blood via hemoglobin, while insects do not carry oxygen in their blood at all. Instead, insects have air tubules that carry oxygen directly to all cells in their body. Because cyanide poisons hemoglobin too, animals that use it are all the more susceptible. Also (while I am not sure of this) insects may be more tolerant of anaerobic metabolism than vertebrates.
      Since cyanide binds to hemoglobin much in the same fashion as it binds cytochrome a3, cyanide takes hemoglobin out of commission as well {9}. With their oxygen carrying molecules bound by cyanide, vertebrates die all the faster from asphyxiation. Mammals are also very dependent on oxygen- utilizing metabolism, and will die in minutes if it is shut off. Insects, lacking hemoglobin, die more slowly as their cells must be starved of ATP. Insects may also be able to survive longer on anaerobic (non-O2 utilizing) metabolism.
      Cyanide kills by binding to cytochrome a3 in the electron transport system. As this site is usually bound by oxygen, the passage of electrons from the ETS to oxygen is prevented, backing up the system. Unable to maintain a proton gradient without a properly functioning ETS, ATP synthesis stops and the cell dies. In vertebrate organisms, cyanide also binds to the porphyrin ring in hemoglobin, exacerbating cyanide's toxic effects. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 16:23:51 PDT 1996 Article: 56127 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!globe.indirect.com!news.sprintlink.net!news-fw-22.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-4.sprintlink.net!nntp.coast.net!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!daily-planet.execpc.com!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:40:45 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 47 Message-ID: <4uf16j$2k6@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tke3r$era@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4tmcnp$60v@access1.digex.net> <4tn81d$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <320135B3.2B0E@unb.ca> <4tuvr7$ga4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3204EF5B.4C89@unb.ca> <32050A0A.63CE@unb.ca> <4u3ce6$197@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ud9pa$513@hil-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> <320A6DF1.5A31@unb.ca> <320A7820.6E07@unb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:42:43 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 20:28:32 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote: >Miloslav Bilik wrote: >> > Since this is your field, why are you ignorant of the velocity >> >difference between the boundaries of a river and the center of a >> >river? Or are you overlooking what you clearly have to know in the >> >rush to create some plausibility for the idea that the ashes would >> >have washed away so quickly? >> >> You can easily find the actual average flow of the Vistula is 970m^3/s >> at Varsow. >Woohoo, *numbers*! >Going back to the Amazon, it discharges 3 million tonnes of sediment per day >with an water flow between 34 and 121 million litres per second. We'll >use the higher figure. Given 1000 litres/ m^3 we get a flow of 121 000 >cubic meters per second. Three million tonnes a day is 34.7 tonnes per >second. That is .00029 tonnes per cubic meter of sediment transported. >If we take 2.7 kilos of cremated remains per person, with a million >people we get 2700 tonnes. Assuming the Vistula can carry the same >sediment load as the Amazon, that 2700 tonnes requires 9 310 345 m^3 >to move it. At the given flow rate, this will require a grand total >of 9600 seconds. > >Oh dear. I seem to have gotton rid of all the ash in 160 minutes... You REFUSE to respond to me on the issue of the actual size of the bone fragments. You REFUSE to respond to me on current speed near the banks and bottom. Yet you continue to try to represent bone fragments as mud. This is clearly an attempt to decieve on your part. You are joining two self professed chemists in the matter of deception despite scientific knowledge. It is rather disgusting to see people do things like this. But then in your case, a strong back was a terrible thing to waste. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 17:39:24 PDT 1996 Article: 56131 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.bright.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Neo-Nazikor Project Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 22:40:05 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4uges3$3eq@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tbbtm$foi@networking.stanford.edu> <132306z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <4u243e$12k8@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> <4u3k2e$b82@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4u5b7f$kup@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4uetdk$auj@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-43.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 5:42:11 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 14:12:30 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <4uetdk$auj@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> Would you care to provide a link to the site you claim to have created >> that won and an award from your host? > >http://www.checkfree.com > >The award is from the Internet Professional Publishers Association (IPPA). >It was awarded in November of 1995. > >The site was also named a "cool site" by Infoseek. So what was your part in creating the site? >Happy? Now how about answering some of OUR questions, jerk. Who is our? If McVay wants answers he can be here to read the answers directly. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 19:41:38 PDT 1996 Article: 56153 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!news.uoregon.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 05:15:28 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 18 Message-ID: <4uehl5$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u2gvo$ss@newsbf02.news.aol.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-30.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 08 10:17:25 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 16:53:04 -0400, jamie@voyager.net (Jamie McCarthy) wrote: >ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) wrote: >> Peters' book of 1933 where he says that *the greater part was released >> after 1/2 hour* >That's at least the second time you've misquoted Peters. "Greatest," >not "greater." And it is the umpteenth time (for those of you in Canada, that means many times) you have failed to note that "the greater part" is a technical term in German referring to exponential decrease. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 19:41:40 PDT 1996 Article: 56155 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer blows the big one Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:12:03 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 682 Message-ID: <4uevh0$kno@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u64nq$gm3@news.iglobal.net> <4u9n1o$14s@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <3208f920.526309618@news.zilker.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:14:08 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 20:27:19 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On 6 Aug 1996 00:47:54 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote: >> >>>On 8/5/96 at 0:54, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >>>> What is interesting about the claims of mass extermination >>>>by gassing is that all such claims were generated by the >>>>Russians. It is also interesting that at no time did the >>>>Russians present any forensic evidence of even small time gassing >>>>much less mass gassing. It is even more interesting that at no >>>>time did the Russians provide any forensic evidence of even the >>>>number of bodies required to support claims of mass gassing. >> >>>Reality check: >>>-------------- >> >>>"...So it fell to Gerhard Riegner, the WJC's [ed.: World Jewish >>>Congress] representative in Geneva, to play a role in one of the most >>>fateful episodes of the period. >> >>>Riegner was on close terms with many members of the international >>>community based in Switzerland, and at the beginning of August 1942 he >>>received a notice from the German industrialist Eduard Schulte, who had >>>access to Hitler's headquarters and reported that the fu"hrer had >>>decided systematically to destroy all the Jews of Europe, using poison >>>gas for this purpose. >> >> Interestingly Eichmann and Hoess make this same report but that they >>had no decided which gas to use. >Huh? >> Browse the file at the end to read >>of it. However, this is a fascinating report and predates every >>other claim. I would like to have a copy of it and the source for >>record purposes at least. >> >> Of course Hoess reports the decision to use gas without the knowledge >>of which gas to use. It is an odddly backward decision that I intend >>to explore more thoroughly. >> >Really? You are actually going to do some work? > >[snip] >> It is fascination that word of gassing reached people that early, even >>before the first HCN gassing experiment but when CO gassing was in >>full swing. >> >Reading this statement you seem to suggest that gassing isn't gassing. >HCN or Carbon Monoxide is still gassing, Mr. Giwer. Gasing folks with >trucks did come first after all. Actually the trucks from Degesh that were mobile delousing vehicles came first. Knowing that it is obvious how the war time rumor started. >> So far no one has explained why Hoess did not simply copy a method >>equally effective as HCN, that being CO. >> >Who says i was effective as CO? You? I've read differently. You have not read the eyewitnesses who claim it was equally effective. I have posted many of them. That you have not read them is your problem. Hie thee to DejaNews. >>>From Hilberg: >> >>>"Following the highly public roundups of Jews in Paris and Warsaw >>>during July, news of the greatest import was received in Switzerland. >>>As summarized in a message, dated August 8, 1942, by the chief of the >>>Geneva office of the World Jewish Congress, Dr. Gerhard Riegner, the >>>report referred to a plan discussed and under consideration in the >>>Fu"hrer headquarters according to which the Jews of Europe were to be >>>deported to the east and "exterminated at one blow" to resolve once and >>>for all the Jewish question in Europe. Among methods "under >>>discussion" for planned action in the autumn was prussic acid... >> Save of course this contradicts ALL THREE versions of the "discovery" >>of ZB by its time frame and by the discussion of using it prior to its >>"discovery". It looks like I am going to have to find a way to fit in >>a fifth column into the following to cover this version of the story. >Huh? Would you take you time when you post? Where are the >contradictions in *your* mind? It says that various ideas were being >tossed around. You need to be more specific about your concerns so >that folks can put it all together for you. It seems that this is >something you are incapable of doing. We are here to help. It is a wonder I still have time for the slow minds in this conference. Browse this. A Tale of three Gassings

A Tale of Three Gassings

      What you are going to read are three different descriptions of the "discovery" of the utility of Zyklon B in mass extermination. Where you would expect to find the stories to be complimentary and to shed light upon each other we find just the opposite.
      We find unexplainable contradictions. In one case we find an unexplainable identical mistake on color based upon a common misconception. We find different people and numbers of people involved.
      We even find an absolutely impossible detail thrown into one story. It is a truly amazing comparison.
Naumann, Bernard. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger, 1966, as cited in Conot1 KL Auschwitz as seen by SS Hoess, Broad and Kremer, second edition, Museum w Oswiecimu, 1978, pp. 92-952 Nizkor Auschwitz FAQ
various sources
embedded in text
commentary
Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure proved impractical, and many were not 'selected' before they arrived in the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration camps for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners were dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers and 'commissars' were initially executed one at a time with a shot in the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall, adjacent to the Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious procedure that wore on the nerves of the SS executioners. In October 1941, however, an SS officer named Arthur Johann Breitwieser "The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11. Proctected by a gas mask, I [Höss] watched the killing myself.       Auschwitz had been receiving trainloads of Soviet commissars and other POW's who were subject to liquidation. Höss's men had shot previous shipments of Russian prisoners, but on September 3 Höss's enterprising subordinate Hauptsturmführer Fritsch Note that different people are involved in the different stories. In one case it is a Breitweiser, in the other it is Fritsch, and in another it is Höss himself.
noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing the camp laundry, was instantly knocked out when exposed to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a disinfectant. It would be by gas, but we did not know which gas and how it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure.       thought of an expedient new method based on the camp's own experience. The buildings, many of them former Polish army barracks, were full of insects, and the camp administration had previously brought in the Hamburg pesticide firm of Tesch and Stabenow to get rid of them.
      Two experts had fumigated particular buildings with a patented insecticide, Zyklon B, a crystalline form of hydrogen cyanide that turned gaseous when exposed to the air. (Höss, "Commandant of Auschwitz," 175. Interrogation of Höss, 14 May 1946, NA RG 238, M-1019/R 28/63)
      In the first story the companions of this officer are doing the delousing. In the second story, Höss and Eichmann had already decided to use a gas but strangely did not know what gas they were going to use. In the third case professional exterminators did the fumigation.
      Note also that person knocked out with one whiff of a deadly poison but recovers. This is contrary to the pathology of cyanide poisoning.
      Note further that it is not a crystaline form of hydrogen cyanide, rather liquid hydrogen cyanide absorbed into wood pulp3.
      To Breitwieser, this seemed to offer the possibility of more efficient and less time-consuming executions. After ordering the half-submerged lower level of the Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had several cans of the blue pellets,           Note that these pellets is given as blue even though, wood pulp is grey. Cyanide itself is colorless but its common name in German translates as blue acid4.
which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting execution.         On September 3 Fritsch decided to experiment. First he crammed five or six hundred Russians and another 250 sick prisoners from the camp hospital into an underground detention cell.       Note that both the number and the composition of the people differ.
which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting execution. In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over.... Then the windows were covered with earth. SS men wearing gas masks opened the Zyklon-B canisters to remove what looked like blue chalk pellets about the size of peas, creating a cloud of poison gas.
      After they left, the doors were sealed.(Höss, Commandant at Auschwitz, 173. See also Yehuda Bauer, "Auschwitz," in Jäckel and Rohwere, eds., Der Mord an den Juden, 167-68) Höss wrote later that death was instantaneous. Perhaps that was what he was told. But he was not present to witness the event; he was away on a business trip.
      Note that the first story appears to indicate dropped in from above as in some other stories while another has a "walked among" indication. In another it is thrown it.
      Note in the third story there is a clear indication of a visible cloud of gas but of course the gas is invisible.
      Note also that this separate and independent story also invents a false blue color.
      Note also Höss clearly states that he watched the instant death in one story yet another claims Höss was not even there.
Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the bodies were met by a fearsome sight. In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over...       Other sources indicate that even the next day not everyone was dead, and the SS men had to release more insecticide. Eventually all the prisoners died. When Höss returned to Auschwitz, he heard about the successful experiment. On Eichmann's next visit to Auschwitz, Höss told him about the possibilities of Zyklon-B, and, according to Höss, the two decided to use the pesiticide and the peasant farmstead for extermination.(Höss, Commandant, 175. From the History of KL Auschwitz, New York, 1982, I, 190)(Breitman, 203)       Here we have a strange set of disagreements. The first story told of immediate unconscioussness in his "discovery" but in the next part of the story we see that did not in fact happen. In the second story there was near instaneous unconsciousness as the first story begins with. The third story insists upon some being alive the next day. The first and third appear to like the two day time frame.
Men with contorted faces had locked themselves together in their death agonies, torn out each other's hair, and bitten off their fingers. Their flesh and their clothes had fused into gelatinous blobs that sometimes disintegrated when the members of the detail tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 112, 134.)           Here we have a description worthy of Steven King. Except that it has mistakes that Steven King would never make.
      Go back and read about the statement that someone was knocked out with one whiff of the gas. Note here that apparently they regain consciousness before they die. And then they have all kinds of horrible self-inflicted injuries.
      And then somehow this particular cyanide does what no other cyanide has ever done and which can not be replicated. It somehow fuses flesh and clothing into gelatinous masses.
      When impossible things are claimed to have happened rest assured someone is making up a story.

      We have two different people getting the idea to use it but in the first case his companions are charged with delousing and in the second case professional fumigators are brought in.
      In one story it is 1000 Russians. In the other case we have 750-850 Russians and sick people.
      In one case the pellets are dropped into the room, in the other men wearing gas masks are walking around in the room to spread it.
      In neither case is the room large enough to hold even the lowest number of people.
      In the first story there is a very strange pathology of cyanide poisoning (instantly knocked out but recovering later for the hair pulling and finger biting) while in the latter, they may or may not have died immediately. No horrifying details are noted.
      In the former story the impossible gelatinous blobs are included while the latter does not include them or anything out of the ordinary.
      One has to wonder how people who implicitely believe one story will deal with the other story and the conflicts between them.
Footnotes

1also found on Nizkor, sort of a holocaust database but it may be purged by the time you get there. It conflicts with the story they approve. They do not provide full attribution of the original work.
2 "The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11. Proctected by a gas mask, I watched the killing myself. In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over.... I must even admit that this gassing set my mind at rest, for the mass extermination of the Jews was to start soon, and at that time neither Eichmann nor I was certain as to how these mass killings were to be carried out. In would be by gas, but we did not know which gas and how it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure." "KL Auschwitz seen by the SS Hoess, Broad, Kremer", second edition, Museum w Oswiecimu, 1978, pp. 92-95.
3 Zyklon for Pest Control, A publication of the Degesh company which was the manufacturer of Zyklon as well as the manufacturer of stationary and portable delousing chambers that used it.
      During the war the company advertised that it's equipment had been used to delouse the possesssions of 25 million people.

Composition
      In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid hydrocyanic acid is chemically stabilized and absorbed in a porous, inert material. It is supplied in snippets or discs prepared from wood pulp. Snippets generally are preferred as in view of their larger surface they give off the gas more rapidly. Upon request also discs can be supplied. The aborbent material can easily be collected at the end of the fumigation.


4The common mis-identification is generally attributed to this common name, blausäur, blue acid. The naming is related to its reaction with iron that produces the pigment, prussian blue. Acids produce a sour (säur) taste.
>>      What you are going to read are >>three different descriptions of the "discovery" of the utility of >>Zyklon B in mass extermination. Where you would expect to find >>the stories to be complimentary and to shed light upon each other >>we find just the opposite. >> >There was no "discovery" mentioned above. There are many cases of >discoveries going on at the same time. I'm given to understand that >Darwin published his _Origins_ when he did because someone else was >going to beat him to the punch. I also understand that Ford didn't >invent the car or the Wright brothers invent the plane. Many different >people were working with the same ideas at the SAME time. This seems >to be a concept that is over your head. All three discoveries in the web page in this message were of exactly the same event. Why have you missed that? >> We find unexplainable >>contradictions. In one case we find an unexplainable identical >>mistake on color based upon a common misconception. We find >>different people and numbers of people involved. >> >Such as? Above. >> We even find an absolutely >>impossible detail thrown into one story. It is a truly amazing >>comparison. >> >Such as? Above. >[snipped the rest until Matt deals with the above] Above. What excuse do you have for missing it? The first version with two gassing stories was posted at least a dozen times. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 19:50:30 PDT 1996 Article: 38715 of alt.politics.white-power Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!pull-feed.internetmci.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.bonehead.matt-giwer,alt.politics.white-power Subject: Re: Girls just wanna have fun was Re: Giwer's way with women Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:38:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 80 Message-ID: <4uethh$auj@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4t25lq$gs4@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4t6j8m$ns0@informer1.cis.McMaster.CA> <4t <4ubr6e$1p2c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4udaso$f18@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 3:40:17 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:428 alt.politics.white-power:38715 On 8 Aug 1996 11:15:52 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >In article <4ubr6e$1p2c@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, >gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFeestein) wrote: >>Seriously, I love you all. >...which is, of course, why your Official ZOG T-shirt will be >mailed to you tomorrow. >CAUTION: Wearing this shirt in or near the Centre Block may result >in massive embarrassment to Members of Parliament and other ZOG dupes. >It would be best if they didn't have their faces rubbed in >your obvious official connection to the Rulers of the Woild. >FATBROAD T-shirts, alas, are controlled by FATBROAD-3, so I am >unable to comply with your request. Contact ZOGNY1 and make >your case there. >PS... Finstenovstein has returned Britannia, and she is once >again safely moored here (MV Britannia, not Finstenovstein), at the >ZOGCANW docks. We are considering your application to borrow her (MV >Britannia, not Finstenovstein) for the 1997-98 Fiscal Year & Sailing >Season, and will advise you in Toronto, at the occasion of our "Wolf >it down at Wolfie's" meeting. >Remember your sister's cat, and ask yourself which agency's >employees actually hosted a massive party to celebrate the >discharge of the Department Drunk... said DD, of course, was >not invited to the party. (But you knew that.) >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only >interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and >respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to >URL http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/ >URL http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/ >Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special >newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately >ignored. If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, >redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power, >an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings. >-- >The Nizkor Project | http://www.nizkor.org/ >-----------------------| Random Giwer Whoppers Served Here > |-------------------------------------- > http://www.nizkor.org/cgi-bin/random-giwer-lie.pl ======== Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Another gas chamber From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found powdered cyanide. "Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the dummy shower heads. In the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to control inflow and outtake of gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to generate the lethal smoke. From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory." IMT XXX - p.470. Amazing what you can find if you look around. And holohuggers are going to believe it. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Fri Aug 9 21:39:37 PDT 1996 Article: 56161 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!agate!howland.erols.net!netcom.com!netcom.net.uk!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 07:17:27 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 77 Message-ID: <4ueopt$lf3@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u8i96$sc4@news1.panix.com> <4u9h0r$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ubqq0$ndv@news1.panix.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:19:25 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2428 alt.revisionism:56161 alt.conspiracy:76248 alt.politics.white-power:38719 soc.culture.jewish:67290 talk.politics.guns:296835 talk.politics.libertarian:110029 talk.abortion:180903 alt.christnet:90208 On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 06:43:32 GMT, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 00:59:30 GMT, fresh@panix.com (Andrew Mathis) >>wrote: >>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>>>On 5 Aug 1996 08:52:14 GMT, schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il (Richard >>>>Schultz) wrote: >>>>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >>>>>: >Your father developed an ulcer (in two weeks, yet--a medical miracle!) >>>>>: >because somebody called him and asked for your phone number? >>>>>: >Sensitive chap. Why do I think you're lying, Matt? >>>>>: Because you did not talk to him after the tube went down his throat to >>>>>: take a look at it. Is that clear enough? >>>>>Actually, it's recently been discovered that ulcers are caused by an >>>>>interesting species of bacterium that lives in the stomach lining (and >>>>>can stand the highly acidic conditions by dumping ammonia as a waste >>>>>product). More precisely, as I recall, the ulcers are caused when the >>>>>body's white blood cells try to go after these bacteria and fail. I >>>>>remember reading an article about the guy who proved it by ingesting some >>>>>of the bacteria himself, developing an ulcer, and then making the ulcer >>>>>go away by taking the appropriate antibiotic. >>>>>In any case, developing an ulcer in two weeks isn't out of the question. >>>>>What I want to know is, who used the secret ZOG "send bacteria over the >>>>>phone" weapon without clearance from the higher echelons? >>>>>----- >>>>>Richard Schultz schultr@ashur.cc.biu.ac.il >>>>>Department of Chemistry tel: 972-3-531-8065 >>>>>Bar-Ilan University, Ramat-Gan, Israel fax: 972-3-535-1250 >>>>>----- >>>>>"I have, if you will forgive the expression, known several bastards >>>>>with very high IQs." >>>>> --J. Bronowski >>>> I am very tired of ignorant Jews playing games like this. >>>Hey Matt. Screw you and your father. >>>Andrew Mathis >>>------------------------------------- >>>"Hehvu z'hirin barashut..." >>>"Be wary of the authorities..." >>> Rabban Gamliel >>> Pirkei Avot 2:3 >> Are you merely ignorant or are you jewish too? >Matthew, if you're ever fool enough to try and sue me, I assure you I >intend to countersue you, not just with any old suit, but with a >class-action suit, with members of s.c.j., who will testify that you >have repeatedly invaded this forum for Jewish people with a bug up >your ass, denying the Holocaust to those who witnessed it, and, um, >HARASSED people in general. >I suggest you keep your idiot mouth shut...you're in deep enough >already with the feds if my info is right. Your info is shit as is your claim that a conference on revisionism is for Jewish people, that there is anyone here who witnessed the holocaust, or that I have done anything so far but question gassing. I would suggest you learn to think before you post. I would suggest you learn to think in general as well as this particular. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:24 PDT 1996 Article: 56180 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!tor-nn1.netcom.ca!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: OLD FAT FOOL SEEKING YOUNG FAT BROAD Date: 9 Aug 1996 18:37:46 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 6 Message-ID: <4ug0hq$kpq@tor-nn1-hb0.netcom.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tfx-ca1-14.netcom.ca Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: Text/Plain; charset=US-ASCII X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:37:46 PM EDT 1996 X-Newsreader: WinVN 0.99.6 Having just received my latest shipment of ginseng extract, I am currently feeling rather frisky, and find my self burdened with a paupacity of female companionship. In particular, I am seeking a nubile fatbroad of the holohugger persuasion. If she is Canadian, even better. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:25 PDT 1996 Article: 56189 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G. Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 10:10:06 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 637 Message-ID: <4uf2tr$l8c@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <32042ADD.51A2@infinop.com> <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32075137.6FD4@gryn.org> <4u9erm$1rb@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <320A6041.1F3C@unb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 3:12:11 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 18:46:41 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> In the lakes it is cumulative. On the ground it is cumulative. And >> it the river, now that our local river "expert" appears to be honest >> enough not to repeat his previous errors, the issue was NEVER >> logistics just as it was NEVER HCN being unsuitable. >What errors, you buffoon? A Tale of three Gassings

A Tale of Three Gassings

      What you are going to read are three different descriptions of the "discovery" of the utility of Zyklon B in mass extermination. Where you would expect to find the stories to be complimentary and to shed light upon each other we find just the opposite.
      We find unexplainable contradictions. In one case we find an unexplainable identical mistake on color based upon a common misconception. We find different people and numbers of people involved.
      We even find an absolutely impossible detail thrown into one story. It is a truly amazing comparison.
Naumann, Bernard. Auschwitz. New York: Frederick A. Praeger, 1966, as cited in Conot1 KL Auschwitz as seen by SS Hoess, Broad and Kremer, second edition, Museum w Oswiecimu, 1978, pp. 92-952 Nizkor Auschwitz FAQ
various sources
embedded in text
commentary
Although Hitler ordered that Jews and commissars were to be screened out before they reached POW camps, the procedure proved impractical, and many were not 'selected' before they arrived in the Reich. Those weeded out were then sent to concentration camps for execution. At Auschwitz, to which Russian prisoners were dispatched to clear land and build factories, the officers and 'commissars' were initially executed one at a time with a shot in the back of the neck at the so-called Black Wall, adjacent to the Bunker (camp prison). This was a laborious procedure that wore on the nerves of the SS executioners. In October 1941, however, an SS officer named Arthur Johann Breitwieser "The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11. Proctected by a gas mask, I [Höss] watched the killing myself.       Auschwitz had been receiving trainloads of Soviet commissars and other POW's who were subject to liquidation. Höss's men had shot previous shipments of Russian prisoners, but on September 3 Höss's enterprising subordinate Hauptsturmführer Fritsch Note that different people are involved in the different stories. In one case it is a Breitweiser, in the other it is Fritsch, and in another it is Höss himself.
noticed that one of his companions, charged with delousing the camp laundry, was instantly knocked out when exposed to a whiff of Zyklon B, the gas that was used as a disinfectant. It would be by gas, but we did not know which gas and how it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure.       thought of an expedient new method based on the camp's own experience. The buildings, many of them former Polish army barracks, were full of insects, and the camp administration had previously brought in the Hamburg pesticide firm of Tesch and Stabenow to get rid of them.
      Two experts had fumigated particular buildings with a patented insecticide, Zyklon B, a crystalline form of hydrogen cyanide that turned gaseous when exposed to the air. (Höss, "Commandant of Auschwitz," 175. Interrogation of Höss, 14 May 1946, NA RG 238, M-1019/R 28/63)
      In the first story the companions of this officer are doing the delousing. In the second story, Höss and Eichmann had already decided to use a gas but strangely did not know what gas they were going to use. In the third case professional exterminators did the fumigation.
      Note also that person knocked out with one whiff of a deadly poison but recovers. This is contrary to the pathology of cyanide poisoning.
      Note further that it is not a crystaline form of hydrogen cyanide, rather liquid hydrogen cyanide absorbed into wood pulp3.
      To Breitwieser, this seemed to offer the possibility of more efficient and less time-consuming executions. After ordering the half-submerged lower level of the Bunker sealed, Breitwieser had several cans of the blue pellets,           Note that these pellets is given as blue even though, wood pulp is grey. Cyanide itself is colorless but its common name in German translates as blue acid4.
which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting execution.         On September 3 Fritsch decided to experiment. First he crammed five or six hundred Russians and another 250 sick prisoners from the camp hospital into an underground detention cell.       Note that both the number and the composition of the people differ.
which vaporize when exposed to air, dropped in among the one thousand Russians awaiting execution. In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over.... Then the windows were covered with earth. SS men wearing gas masks opened the Zyklon-B canisters to remove what looked like blue chalk pellets about the size of peas, creating a cloud of poison gas.
      After they left, the doors were sealed.(Höss, Commandant at Auschwitz, 173. See also Yehuda Bauer, "Auschwitz," in Jäckel and Rohwere, eds., Der Mord an den Juden, 167-68) Höss wrote later that death was instantaneous. Perhaps that was what he was told. But he was not present to witness the event; he was away on a business trip.
      Note that the first story appears to indicate dropped in from above as in some other stories while another has a "walked among" indication. In another it is thrown it.
      Note in the third story there is a clear indication of a visible cloud of gas but of course the gas is invisible.
      Note also that this separate and independent story also invents a false blue color.
      Note also Höss clearly states that he watched the instant death in one story yet another claims Höss was not even there.
Two days later the camp inmates detailed to remove the bodies were met by a fearsome sight. In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over...       Other sources indicate that even the next day not everyone was dead, and the SS men had to release more insecticide. Eventually all the prisoners died. When Höss returned to Auschwitz, he heard about the successful experiment. On Eichmann's next visit to Auschwitz, Höss told him about the possibilities of Zyklon-B, and, according to Höss, the two decided to use the pesiticide and the peasant farmstead for extermination.(Höss, Commandant, 175. From the History of KL Auschwitz, New York, 1982, I, 190)(Breitman, 203)       Here we have a strange set of disagreements. The first story told of immediate unconscioussness in his "discovery" but in the next part of the story we see that did not in fact happen. In the second story there was near instaneous unconsciousness as the first story begins with. The third story insists upon some being alive the next day. The first and third appear to like the two day time frame.
Men with contorted faces had locked themselves together in their death agonies, torn out each other's hair, and bitten off their fingers. Their flesh and their clothes had fused into gelatinous blobs that sometimes disintegrated when the members of the detail tried to pick them up. (Naumann, pp. 59, 112, 134.)           Here we have a description worthy of Steven King. Except that it has mistakes that Steven King would never make.
      Go back and read about the statement that someone was knocked out with one whiff of the gas. Note here that apparently they regain consciousness before they die. And then they have all kinds of horrible self-inflicted injuries.
      And then somehow this particular cyanide does what no other cyanide has ever done and which can not be replicated. It somehow fuses flesh and clothing into gelatinous masses.
      When impossible things are claimed to have happened rest assured someone is making up a story.

      We have two different people getting the idea to use it but in the first case his companions are charged with delousing and in the second case professional fumigators are brought in.
      In one story it is 1000 Russians. In the other case we have 750-850 Russians and sick people.
      In one case the pellets are dropped into the room, in the other men wearing gas masks are walking around in the room to spread it.
      In neither case is the room large enough to hold even the lowest number of people.
      In the first story there is a very strange pathology of cyanide poisoning (instantly knocked out but recovering later for the hair pulling and finger biting) while in the latter, they may or may not have died immediately. No horrifying details are noted.
      In the former story the impossible gelatinous blobs are included while the latter does not include them or anything out of the ordinary.
      One has to wonder how people who implicitely believe one story will deal with the other story and the conflicts between them.
Footnotes

1also found on Nizkor, sort of a holocaust database but it may be purged by the time you get there. It conflicts with the story they approve. They do not provide full attribution of the original work.
2 "The gassing was carried out in the detention cells of Block 11. Proctected by a gas mask, I watched the killing myself. In the crowded cells, death came instantaneously the moment the Zyklon B was thrown in. A short, almost smothered cry, and it was all over.... I must even admit that this gassing set my mind at rest, for the mass extermination of the Jews was to start soon, and at that time neither Eichmann nor I was certain as to how these mass killings were to be carried out. In would be by gas, but we did not know which gas and how it was to be used. Now we had the gas, and we had established a procedure." "KL Auschwitz seen by the SS Hoess, Broad, Kremer", second edition, Museum w Oswiecimu, 1978, pp. 92-95.
3 Zyklon for Pest Control, A publication of the Degesh company which was the manufacturer of Zyklon as well as the manufacturer of stationary and portable delousing chambers that used it.
      During the war the company advertised that it's equipment had been used to delouse the possesssions of 25 million people.

Composition
      In ZYKLON pure (98%-99%) liquid hydrocyanic acid is chemically stabilized and absorbed in a porous, inert material. It is supplied in snippets or discs prepared from wood pulp. Snippets generally are preferred as in view of their larger surface they give off the gas more rapidly. Upon request also discs can be supplied. The aborbent material can easily be collected at the end of the fumigation.


4The common mis-identification is generally attributed to this common name, blausäur, blue acid. The naming is related to its reaction with iron that produces the pigment, prussian blue. Acids produce a sour (säur) taste.
Other than the mistake I made about the >density of apatite, which subsequent posters have indicated that I >may not have been as wrong as I thought, I stand by everything >I wrote. >And as for the lakes, you ignorant putz, I believe that 1481 >cubic meters of bone ash, which I roughly calculated would be >formed by burning 1 million men, women and children, dumped in a >lake 1 km by 2 km in size, would form a layer 0.4 mm thick. AND complelely measureable even with 1945 technology. >Ooooo, HUGE accumulation, Mattie-poo. I could say that it is huge >compared to your balls, but I won't. But I could have. >> You really should find the time to follow the discussion or withdraw >> until you have the time. >People living in glass houses... I would suggest you learn what that means. >> That is the BTU equivalent of the natural gas commonly used today. >> Why would it take less under Nazi Physics? >According to Giwer Math, 0.4 millimeters is such a TERRIBLY ENORMOUS >thickness that people should be struggling through it. Accordingly, >everything you have to say about math is questionable. Find it. No one ever looked for it even when it was fresh. >> >BTW - even if it did, the ashes would have been a minor amount of that >> >and the river flow was still more than adequate to get rid of it all. >> >> You certainly know more about fluid flow than to make that claim. And >> then there are the lakes and the land. >Lakes? Lakes you say? Like, more than one? So that the total ash of 1 million >people might not form a 0.4 millimeter thickness in one lake but might be spread >over several, thus thinning it by several orders or magniture? >Would you like me to relaod that shotgun you just fired into your foot? Show your assumptions and your math. The chunks are on the order of 0.5 to 1 cm in size. You millimeter stuff shows only that you are not interested in reading the NG. >> >Gee! Considering that the reports that the ashes were eliminated by >> >dumping in the river, the fact that no ashes were found is hardly >> >surprising! >> >> And as we have a very slow moving river and given what you certainly >> know about fluid fluw, you can not have thought about it and be making >> this claim. Or are you suggesting the remains float? >Hey, Maaattt. What is the thickness of 1481 cubic meters of ash spread >over 50 hectares? Can you say "Three millimeters", Matt? Now, looking >at a map of Poland, can you find about 126 acres that might have been used >to dump ash? >Hey Matt. I bet you I can dump a truckload a day of ash in a slow moving >river the size of the Vistula and come back fifty years later to see that >it is gone. Wanna bet? I'll be around to check. One of the advantages of >being a "youngster". Read the fucking newsgroup before you jump again. DejaNews will get you up to date. READ IT ALL! >> And if you review your fluid flow you will certainly agree the ashes >> are either still there or an estimatable distance downstream moving as >> a mass. That the Russians did not feel it necessary to verify the >> stories in 1945 speaks volumes for the basis for their case. >Bullshit, Giwer. What you know about hydrogeology I can write on the tip of >my pinkie finger with a paintbrush. A slowly moving mass going downriver? >Absolute garbage. Even if this stuff did sink it would not stay in one place >or move as a unit. Even heavy metals like gold are distributed downstream >and certainly do not move as a mass, so I have no idea why the laws of >nature should suddenly change just Because! You! Say! So! You blew it badly lying about the fluid flow rates on the banks and bottoms of rivers. And now you are pissed and want to save your ego with an attack. That is human and understandable. That you remain on the attack when so clearly wrong is not understandable. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:26 PDT 1996 Article: 56195 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:29:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 22 Message-ID: <4uhdsi$7hq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tcovo$s2r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4u9oam$8tv@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4uae6h$g8a@access5.digex.net> <320A159B.7C1@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 2:31:30 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:56195 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:430 On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 12:28:11 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Michael P. Stein wrote: >> >> Does the fact that a Justice Department attorney was in my home >> recently asking me about you change your presumption any? >It's when they cross over into Canada that things get *REALLY* >interesting. >I had a call yesterday - had problems returning it from my home office. >Three connect tries later and I had a little chat about a certain person >and any archival material that I might have. >I said that there might be other corroborating sources, should it ever >come to that. Not that I'm volunteering - just that other archives might >be useful in verifying mine. Make that four people. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:27 PDT 1996 Article: 56198 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G. Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:11:55 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 540 Message-ID: <4uhcs2$ra@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <32042ADD.51A2@infinop.com> <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32075137.6FD4@gryn.org> <4u9erm$1rb@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <320A2D13.15FB@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-06.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 12:14:10 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 14:08:19 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 10:05:43 -0400, Alec Grynspan >> wrote: >> >> >Try again, Matt. Numbers are numbers. Prove your contentions - or admit >> >that you're BSing to keep from admitting your ignorance. >> >> The research amounting to speaking to people with years in the >> cremation business and who have testified on the subject in court has >> been posted here. If you were so busy you missed it, go find it on >> DejaNews. >URL, PLEASE! And another. ======== Path: ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!nntp.coast.net!nntp..primenet..com!winternet..com!n1ott..istar!ott..istar!istar..net!tor..istar!east..istar!newsjunkie..ans..net!newsfeeds..ans..net!rcogate..rco..qc..ca!news..interlink..net!Rezonet..net!Vir..com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: A revisionist FAQ (1) (Repost) Date: 4 Aug 1996 23:17:08 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 312 Message-ID: <4u3b1k$hq2@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne19.vir.com Thanks to Alexander Baron, who revided the text (my english is not perfect) and gave me several suggestions for this FAQ and the 2 pages that follow. CREMATORIA The first section of this FAQ deals with crematoria in Birkenau. The Revisionist claim is usually supported by the affirmations of Ivan Legace, a crematory operator from Calgary who has been subjected to smear attacks >from the Holocaust lobby in alt.revisionism. I hadn't really the time to involve myself on this topic, I'm working 40 hours a week, and I've no connection with the Simon Wiesenthal Center, which can raise billions of dollars for the construction of Holocaust Museums. However, I never heard about any crematory operator who was produced in a court case by the Ho- locaust lobby to support the claim that 4 bodies can be reduced to ashes in 30 or 45 minutes in a crematory oven. My first knowledge of the topic was limited, than I got an interview with M. Marc Poirier (Funeral House Magnus Poirier, Montreal) and a phone interview with a chemist who is main- taining several crematoria in Quebec. Later, I got several phone interviews: with M. Denis, from 'Incineration Plus' (Montreal); S. Ouellet (Urgel Bour- gie Funeral House, Montreal); J. Choiniere, Crematorium d'Arche (Longueuil); a man from 'le Cimetiere du Bas du Fleuve'; M. Cloutier, from Le Cremato- rium Mont-Royal. The first thing that must be said is that Auschwitz crematoria were operating at 800 degrees Celcius approximately, according to the annex of an anti-Revisionist book, "Les chambres a gaz ont exist‚", by G. Wellers. An annex to the book shows the source: report of the Polish War Crime In- vestigation Commission and Jan Sehn. This communist commission claimed right after the war that the Nazis were able to cremate 3 or 4 people in 20 or 30 minutes per oven at a temperature of about 800 degrees. Cremato- ries were not operating at 1,200 to 1,600 degrees like today's crematoria in those days; they were less technologically developed. The first thing that must be said is that nowhere was I told that the cremation took less than about 2 hours for a normal body. The range was between two hours to two and a half hours. To that one must add a pre- hea ting period of 30 minutes for the first cremation of the day. A Cana- dian law states that the after-burner region must have a temperature above 1000 degrees Celsius before beginning the cremation. The after-burner is a part of the structure where a little wall slows down the evacuation of the combustion products and where a flame is applied to those ones. The purpose is simply to burn the remains of the primary combustion and avoid the ex- pulsion of pollutants into the atmosphere. In the case of the Auschwitz ovens, we are told that the period of operation was limited in the time: the Krema 1 at Auschwitz 1 (six ovens) was just sufficient to dispose the bodies of the inmates who died from or- dinary causes (typhus, other diseases) and the main crematoria of Birkenau started to work only after February 1943. It was also documented by the anti-Revisionist write Jean-Claude Pressac that those crematoria were sub- jected to several breakdowns, especially Kremas 4 and 5 but also the other two. One of the two latest was shut down finally in the same year but even the other one stopped operating for several weeks in miscellaneous situa- tions. The Auschwitz camp was evacuated in January 1945. Normally a crema- tory must be cleaned up and is not operating 24 hours a day. Nevertheless, the claim nowadays is that about a million people died in Auschwitz-Birkenau and that most of them were cremated there. According to the latest version of the Nizkor FAQ: more than 700,000 in Kremas 2 and 3. These had 15 ovens each, the crematorium buildings 4 and 5 had 8 ovens each. All of that in less than 18 months, with several breakdowns. My inquiry gave me the possibility to learn also the average quantity of air that is evacuated from a crematory in Quebec: about 625 cubic feet per minute, or 1400 cubic metres per hour. In the case of the Auschwitz ovens, the figure that can be derived from the data present in "Anatomy Of A Death Camp" is about 2,000 cubic metres per oven. In that case, we have a figure of 33% less air that is applied to the corpse in a crematory here, but also a figure for a temperature that is 75% higher. The claim that a body could be cremated in 30 minutes is difficult to support with physical evidence here. Multiple corpses in an oven: The Auschwitz ovens dimensions were about 1 metre in diameter, and se- veral corpses were allegedly incinerated at a time to increase their effi- ciency. Everywhere I was told that the cremation of a body is directly re- lated to the volume which is occupied. A normal corpse takes between two hours to two and a half hours to be cremated, an extremely obese corpse much more time, and the lower limit that the chemist and those crematory opera- tors knew was about an hour and a quarter. In some other countries, the cremation time seems to be faster (there are few variables on which one can play) since some Revisionists have already given figures like 1 hour 30 minutes for a normal body. In that case, the oxygen intake is probably hi- gher. The ratio surface/volume to burn is also one of the factor that in- fluences the faster cremation. The combustion of the corpse is just the oxidation of its molecules with the oxygen that is brought into the muffle. An analogy could be drawn with the combustion of a log: cutting it into thin slices will reduce the combustion time. In the case of the Birkenau ovens, packing the muffles would result in a drastic drop in the air intakes. The heads and shoulders of the corpses would stop the path of air molecules and fewer could reach the most important part of the body that is offering a large surface: the trunk. A good analogy is that of a window you open lightly to let air in. Since there's little space available, several corpses piled up in the muffle would not allow a maximisation of the surface that it offers to oxygen: abdomens would be in contact with backs, etc...Cremation specialists often use the equivalent in pounds to estimate the cremation time, they use datas like 'a 150 pounds body' or a '250 pounds body', etc... Nizkor claim that emaciated corpses wouldn't take as much time to cremate, and this is true, however they ignore the fact that most of the Jews allegedly gassed were supposelly killed upon arrival. Photos of new inmates who arrived at Auschwitz do exist (1) and these, contrarily to the Jews who were victims of typhus and shortage over months in camps at the end of the war have nothing in common with famished-looking persons. It is 90 % of the persons allegedly cremated in the Holocaust story. There is also an attempt to use the argument that most of the victims were children, but this is plainly wrong: a simple study that uses the lists that are provided by the Holocaust lobby itself (eg Danuta Czech in "Auschwitz Chronicle") shows that the children among the victims could not account for more than 20%. The best way to cremate a million Jews was simply to built more cremato- ria. The author Arthur Butz gave a wonderful parallel several years ago that must be summarise (2): There are two tables which are available for the crematory ovens. Most of the deaths in Germany's camps occurred at the end of the war when the chaotic con- ditions of the defeat created large scale shortages and boosted the mortality rate, according to mortality statistics that the SS were using for those camps (the documentation related to the official mortality rate, registration books and so on were seized by the Allies). On the other hand, most of the deaths in Auschwitz occurred during the summer of 1942-1943 with typhus epidemics. It is said usually, even on the Nizkor site, that the majority of Jews who were de- ported to Auschwitz were not registered, and vanished without trace because the Germans didn't record their names in their files, they gassed them on arrival. Only the Jews who died from ordinary death were registered in the death book. Jews who were sent to other camps were not tattooed. At the end of 1942 a campaign was launched by Himmler to fight typhus and, as he stated in a letter, to reduce the mortality rate at 'any cost' (3). On January 20, 1943 Gluecks, inspector of the camps, in a circular addressed to all the Commandants of Nazi camps, ordered them to fight the too high mortali- ty rate 'with all the available means'. Other documents (4) attest of this exchange between Pohl, Himmler and Glucks on that topic and one could also find a more accesible source about this campaign by reading Reitlinger, _The Final Solution_, First edition, page 127. On September 30, 1943 Pohl was able to report progress in a letter to Himmler. What is interesting is that he provides the statistics about mortali- ty rates in miscellaneous camps: from July 1942 to February 1943 the mortality rate was about 8% while it dropped to 2.8% in June 1943. An interesting aspect is the August month: August 1943 population death % Dachau 17,300 40 0.23 Sachsenhausen 26,500 194 0.73 Buchenwald 17,600 118 0.67 Mauthausen 21,100 290 1.37 Auschwitz 74,000 2380 3.1 etc.... Again, exterminated Jews in gas chambers are not included in this internal correspondence. If we look at mortality rates due to natural causes we can see that the number of ovens is almost comparable with camps where there is no ex- termination claim. In 1942, crematoria were constructed in Dachau and Sachen- hausen: each had 4 ovens. At Dachau there were 2 ovens before 1942 (samething for Sachsenhausen). At Buchenwald there were six. In Auschwitz the number of ovens was between 30 and 46, depending on the period. The number of inmates grew to 100,000 at the end of 1943. But there's another way: Dachau and Buchenwald wee in Germany and as 'non- extermination' camps, they can be used for the comparison if we want to see the intention of the Germans when they launched the construction of crematoria rather than when they were functional and compare it with the death rate there. In the previous case, Auschwitz seems a bit better equipped with crematoria than the other camps if we take into account the mortality rate, but if we look back at the moment when the decision to build crematoria was taken, here we get even a lower proportion of crematoria/death record for Auschwitz than for camps in Germany, sometimes by a factor of two. If we just take the year 1942, 45,575 inmates died in Auschwitz and 2,470 in Dachau (5). But it is at this moment that the SS launched the construction of most of the crematoria, so we can have a clear idea of what they had in the mind: Auschwitz was half as well equipped with crematoria as Dachau, according to normal death figures, probably for budgetary constraints. The main reasons for the high death rates in Birkenau were the typhus epi- demics of 1942-1943 for which Germans lost the control and also the fact that many sick inmates were shipped to Birkenau, according to documents (it was, indeed a death camp). Permanent use? I will add an observation here: if we are told that the crematories were operating 24 hours a day, than we will need to substract 4 days from that. The worst period of the extermination process, according to the legend, is the summer of 1944, when 300,000 to 400,000 Hungarian Jews were allegedly liquidated and cremated in Auschwitz in two months (6). The story is that thousands of bodies were burned in open pits since even the 'fantastic' cre- matoria of Auschwitz were not able to dispose of 5,000 to 10,000 bodies a day. And in that story, the crematoria were working 24 hours a day over this period also. It was normal for the U.S. Air force to take photos of a target before and after the bombardment. Before, to evaluate the defense, after, to evaluate the damaged. The I.G. Farben industrial complex of Auschwitz-Monowitz was bombed at the end of the summer, and 4 photos, taken by U.S. airplanes, give a picture of Birkenau during this critical period: The May 31, 1944, the June 26, 1944, the August 25, 1944 and the September 13, 1944. In none of the pho- tos can one see any trace of thousands of bodies burned in open pits. Morever, on the 4 photos, there is no smoke released by the crematoria chimneys! (7). Nizkor do not use those air photos, but rather a classical one: > in massive pits. Two gruesome photographs of these "burning pits", taken > in secrecy in Auschwitz-Birkenau, have survived. They are of reasonable > quality, and show men standing by a pile of naked bodies, with the smoking > pit in front of them. Some bodies are being dragged into the pit. The pho- > tographs are reproduced by Pressac. This photo was allegedly taken in Birkenau, but it could have been taken anywhere else in Europe; no detail on the photo allows the reader to know where it was taken. The fuel: The average quantity of fuel that is necessary to burn a body in a crema- torium today is about 23 cubic metres of natural gas, or the equivalent of 30 to 35 kg of coke if we convert with calorimetric data. In the 20s, things were not different, and since the author J.C. Pressac reproduces the documents that deal with coke deliveries to Auschwitz-Birkenau ( A.T.O., 1989 ), it is possible to estimate approximately the number of people who were cremated there. 2,200 tons of coke, or the equivalent of 70,000 to 100,000 persons if we account for a proportion of 20% children. The coke shipments to Birkenau give a figure that matches almost perfectly the death registers of the camp. The documents: There are very few documents that are normally adduced to 'prove' that Birke- nau's crematoria were able to dispose of so many people, most of the 'proofs' are based on post-war eyewitness testimonies. However, it is not bad to look at the 2 main ones: The Jahring document (28 June, 1943) says that the 52 muffles of Auschwitz- Birkenau were able to reduce to ashes 4,756 corpses per day with a 24 hour a day operation. The date of the document matches the period when several major breakdowns were affecting Birkenau's crematoria (the SS were trying desperately to repair it at that time, as Pressac documented). The origin of the document is the 'Committee of the Anti-fascist Resistance of the German Democratic Repu- blic. There was no reason for the SS to claim such an output at the moment that they had so many difficulties with those crematoria: this document is a forgery. Morever, in another document reproduce on page 224 the crematoria operated only 12 hours a day. One could check in 'A.T.O' where Pressac reproduce this one: Jahring's signature is completelly different than the signature we can find on other documents signed by him (on the coke consumption). Morever, the 'Jahring document' was miraculously discovered in 1981, in eastern Germany, when revisionism became more popular. There was no expertise about the signature that appear on it: if one look in A.T.O and compare with other documents signed by him, it's easy to guess why. Another document that is used on the anti-Revisionist side: 'Fritz Sander and Paul Erdmann, Prufer's superiors at Topf, estimated an output of 30 to 36 bodies in 10 hours [...]' (8). The reference is Weimar, LK 6451, letter Topf July 14, 1941. According to the rest of the text, the best I could understand is that this was a double muffle furnace. In Pressac's book there are several references to contract invoices, and not only for Auschwitz: it seems that Pressac had access to a huge amount of letters and documentation that were written over 10 years, the number of quotations about the crematoria is impressive. I would not be surprised if he met several references to lower cremation output in those let- ters. Nevertheless, the documents that are usually used to 'prove' those crematoria output are rare: 2 or 3. It is possible that this letter exaggerates the outputs a bit for 'selling purposes'. It is said too that the first cremation was car- ried on only on August 15, 1941 with that furnace. This means simply that this claim in the letter, probably, was not based on something that was observed but on an hypothetically optimistic estimate. In short, it is worthless. Notes And References (1) The Auschwitz Album (2) "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century", by Arthur Butz, 360 pages, published by the Institute for Historical Review, P.O. Box 2739, Newport Beach, CA 92659 U.S.A. (3) (document 2172-PS, Reitlinger, "The Final Solution", First edition, page 127). (4) (1469-PS, NMT, Volume V, page 372) (5) Butz, page 378 (6) "Debunking the Genocide Myth: A Study of the Nazi Concentration Camps and the Alleged Extermination of European Jewry", Introduction by Pierre Hofstet- ter, Translated from the French by Adam Robbins, published by the Institute for Historical Review, (1978), page 246. (7) "Air Photo Evidence", John Ball, Samizdat Publishers, 206 Carlton Street Toronto, Canada M5A-2L1. [Around 10$ US plus ship- ment, (416) 922-9850]. (8) (Anatomy of a Death Camp, page 189).  From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:27 PDT 1996 Article: 56208 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Here's a novel idea Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:12:20 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 33 Message-ID: <4uhgd5$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u9ho3$34q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ubm5p$4bt@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4ueocl$lf3@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 3:14:29 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 14:10:52 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <4ueocl$lf3@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >> >>       If you have > href="hcn.html">looked at the table of death versus time you >[more snipped] > >Mr. Giwer, > >Please use your massive intellect and learn how to use HTML Markdown. > >If you've GOT to spam, at least do it properly. > >Idiot. > >Sara >-- >"It's always nice to see a prejudice overruled by a deeper prejudice." > John Sayles, _Lone Star_ Name calling by a person who does not know how so save a file and browse it? Perhaps you should pay for one of those fancy internet courses that teach you how to fondle a rat. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:28 PDT 1996 Article: 56209 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.bright.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: I'm not a revisionist but here's a thought Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:04:12 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 88 Message-ID: <4uhfts$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u57d7$a9d@nntp.igs.net> <32079501.994@c2.org> <4u9m12$59j@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ud9jh$8e8@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4ueup7$drk@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ug354$mc5@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 3:06:20 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Aug 1996 19:22:12 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >: I use the term to everyone who, like a creationist, appears otherwise >: sane but has a total belief in gassing without the slighest bit of >: physical evidence. >: >: But you know that, holohugger. >CREATIONISTS: HOLOCAUST DENIERS: >Have little or no support Have little or no support >among scientists. among historians. Historians involved in the holocaust are exceedingly rare as the penalties for publishing anything contrary to the existing mythology are quite severe. Scientists, however, rely upon physical evidence while holohuggers have none, only testimony such as the man who was gassed six times and lived to tell about it. Gasse six time, creation in six days, not much difference. >Present no evidence to Present no evidence to >support their position. support their position. They merely point to the lack of evidence for gassing. >Rely entirely on picking Rely entirely on picking >tiny holes around the tiny holes around the >fringes of the theory fringes of the accepted >of evolution. account of the Holocaust. Rather they attack the heart of the gassing stories, the complete and total lack of evidence for it. >Must postulate a huge Must postulate a huge >conspiracy, directed conspiracy, directed >by humanists, to account by Zionists, to account >for their refutation of for their refutation of >evolution being covered the Holocaust being covered >up for so long. up for so long. Not really. Simple stupidity will explain it all. >Once read a book by Duanne Once read a book by Bradley >Gish, and are now convinced Smith, and are now convinced >they know the Truth which they know the Truth which >has eluded everybody who's has eluded everybody who's >given serious study to the given serious study to the >issue. issue. Never read such a book in my life. It was obvious there was something wrong when I discovered ZB was cyanide. The witness descriptions simply do not match cyanide. >Aren't above lying and Aren't above lying and >distorting the words of distorting the words of >scientists in order to opponents in order to >support their Higher Truth. support their Higher Truth. Rather it is more interesting that holohuggers are so willing to believe all the contradictory and impossible things that are known about their holocaust. >You make the call, Matt. From here, it looks like the only difference >is that creationists are basically well-intentioned crackpots, while >Holocaust deniers are actively engaged in polishing up the memory of >one of the greatest mass murders in history, and spitting on the graves >of twelve million human beings. If you ever get the story straight about those who are laughing at the idiocy of burning people without fuel and the like you might be able to create an honest comparison. In the mean time, your pointing out the lack of physical evidence is quite a good thing. Remember the time we were over the actual layouts of LK I and II and we discovered that not one "witness" ever described the buildings? All you folks have going for you is long after the fact speculation. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:29 PDT 1996 Article: 56211 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:32:39 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4uf0nd$kno@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tke3r$era@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4tmcnp$60v@access1.digex.net> <4tn81d$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <320135B3.2B0E@unb.ca> <4tuvr7$ga4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3204EF5B.4C89@unb.ca> <32050A0A.63CE@unb.ca> <4u3ce6$197@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3206148B.65D5@unb.ca> <32062008.5AE8@unb.ca> <320A5553.822@unb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:34:37 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 18:00:03 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote: >Mark Van Alstine wrote: >> > As a matter of fact, it is no. I correct myself. The specific gravity >> > of apatite (calcium phosphate) is 3.1 This makes a bone fragment >> > heavier than a quartz fragment of the same size and porosity. However, >> > the arguments below still stand. >> >> I think further consideration is needed here. Bone is mainly a >> biocomposite of hydroxyapatite and collogen. Hydroxyapatite, the main >> mineral component of bone, comprises about 1/4 the volume and 1/2 the mass >> of normal adult bone and is deposited along the bone collagen fibrils. >> Given this, it would suggest that bone should have a lower specific >> gravity, due to the porous bone matrix, than pure hydroxyapatite. >> >> This assumption appears to be borne out by the fact that bone (Cancelllus >> and Cortical) has a specific gravity of 1.3. >> >> Furthermore, when bone is calcinated only the hydroxyapatite remains in >> the bone matrix, thus suggesting that the specific gravity of calcinated >> bone should be even less. Therefore, considering that the calcinated bones >> of the victims were crushed to fine fragments (less than 2/5 inches) would >> seem to suggest that they were more readily disturbed by the lifting >> velocity effect of the Vistula's current than you may have assumed above. >Another effect that I did not mention was abrasion. Apatite, the fifth >standard on Moh's scale, is softer than quartz and orthoclase, both >common constituents in sands and muds. This being the case, apatite would >also be worn away faster than ordinary sediment. >-- >Keith Morrison >t08o@Unb.ca It is good to see you are claiming it floats. Want to get back to fluid flow near the banks and bottom? No? I am not surprised, fool. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:30 PDT 1996 Article: 56215 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news.dacom.co.kr!usenet.seri.re.kr!news.kreonet.re.kr!usenet.etri.re.kr!usenet.kornet.nm.kr!agate!howland.erols.net!news1.erols.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: All Roads Lead to Zero Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 09:36:33 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <4uhlb1$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <320b3feb.896046@news.pacificnet.net> <4uftvj$6k7@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 4:38:41 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 17:55:50 GMT, syegul@ix.netcom.com (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote: >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) sez: >> From my personal experience in studying the validity of the >>Holocaust story, it seems that everything the story has to offer >>either contradicts itself or something else. >> Be it photograph, eyewitness testimony, document or statement >>attributed to the high command; be it from one Holocaust book to >>another or websites, contradiction riegns, numbers, methods, places >>and accounts. >Yesterday I drove by a head-on collision that had taken place in front of a >store I needed to get something from. I parked in the lot and when I came >out I was privy to a heated and vicious argument between the two drivers. >Both were stubbornly insisting the other guy hit him. >Nevertheless, there were two wrecked cars on the road. Nothing changed >that. >I think you seriously misunderstand the implications of contradictions. >Next thing you'll be telling me JFK shot himself. But there are no bodies killed by cyanide. There are no body remains to account for the claimed number of dead. At least you had two wrecked cars. Imagine if you were claiming 12 million wrecked cars in one place. Would you not expect some questioning? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:31 PDT 1996 Article: 56242 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.kei.com!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.fan.rush-limbaugh,alt.politics.correct,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.usa.republican,alt.politics.clinton,alt.president.clinton,alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy,alt.current-events.usa,talk.politics.misc,alt.politics.usa.misc,alt.politics.equality,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.radical-left,alt.politics.reform,alt.politics.usa.congress,alt.politics.usa.constitution,alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich,dc.politics,talk.politics.libertarian Subject: Re: Good Show, Germany :-) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 09:43:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4uhlo3$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <320B42D6.F95@rio.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 4:45:39 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:56242 alt.fan.rush-limbaugh:351897 alt.politics.correct:125085 alt.politics.democrats.d:104880 alt.politics.usa.republican:250444 alt.politics.clinton:269746 alt.president.clinton:86854 alt.fan.g-gordon-liddy:37965 alt.current-events.usa:21844 talk.politics.misc:426979 alt.politics.usa.misc:100659 alt.politics.libertarian:194040 alt.politics.radical-left:109694 alt.politics.reform:87077 alt.politics.usa.congress:55850 alt.politics.usa.constitution:80243 alt.politics.usa.newt-gingrich:71736 talk.politics.libertarian:110197 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:53:26 +0000, Chuck Ferree wrote: >Good news: >Chuck Ferree >The former leader of Germany's far-right National Democratic Party, >already in jail for Holocaust denial, has received 20 more months in >prison for inciting racial hatred, after he appealed the original >sentence. >The extra time was added to Guenter Deckert's sentence for proclaiming >at a public appearance with controversial British historian David >Irving and in a book, that the Nazi mass slaughter of Jews never took >place. >See, Moran, Giwer, Baron, Pissed Youth, and you other deniers. It >could happen here. >I'll help get the legislation passed, when Clinton is re-elected. I have always said the government would start the revolution. That would be enough to do it. Look what you are going to cause attempting to eliminate the 1st amendment. It will be on your shoulders and the shoulders of those like you. And if you are proposing that Clinton is against free speech, please post your evidence in the political NGs. It will be most interesting to everyone in them. >You turkeys better cool it a little. Another threat? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:32 PDT 1996 Article: 56255 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:34:43 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 38 Message-ID: <4uf0ra$kno@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tke3r$era@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4tmcnp$60v@access1.digex.net> <4tn81d$21h@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <320135B3.2B0E@unb.ca> <4tuvr7$ga4@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3204EF5B.4C89@unb.ca> <32050A0A.63CE@unb.ca> <4u3ce6$197@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3206148B.65D5@unb.ca> <4u776g$6si@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <320790D7.11BD@gryn.org> <4ubblb$pqm@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <3209EB69.6D45@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:36:42 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 09:28:09 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> Are you ever going to get back to the subject you tried to engage me >> in originally? >> >I have been on that subject all along. >But you know that. >> You were going to demonstrate that death from gassing by HCN and CO >> matches the descriptions the witnesses provided. >> >We already settled that one, Matt. >I see no need to repeat an argument that you lost so easily. >As for trying to engage you in it - most certainly *NOT*! I agree it was settled. The descriptions provided do not in any manner match cyanide poisoning -- unless you are into gelatinous mixtures of flesh and clothing that is. >> Any time you think you are ready. >Ready to rehash old material yet again?!? Hardly! Thank you for agreeing they were not describing cyanide poisoning. I will be enjoy posting your agreement. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:33 PDT 1996 Article: 56265 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!netnews.com!news.dx.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!newsreader.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-200.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-pen-14.sprintlink.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in2.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Neo-Nazikor Project Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 08:36:14 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 35 Message-ID: <4uetdk$auj@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tbbtm$foi@networking.stanford.edu> <132306z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <4u243e$12k8@usenetw1.news.prodigy.com> <4u3k2e$b82@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4u5b7f$kup@bell.maths.tcd.ie> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 3:38:12 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 14:47:41 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <4u5b7f$kup@bell.maths.tcd.ie>, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) >wrote: >[responding to Giwer's insults about the Nizkor page] >> >> Matt can't come up with something specific, so he makes these >> assertions. >> >Derek: > >I've addressed this one before, although not to Giwer. > >I'm a Web site creator. That's my job. The last site I created won an IPPA >award for Design Excellence. > >The Nizkor site does exactly what it is supposed to do. It is clean, >concise and clean. It's not flashy and dramatic -- that's because it's not >SUPPOSED to be. > >Giwer is obviously using the "flash and gee whiz" method of evaluating the site. > >I'd just call it "Sour grapes." > >Sara Would you care to provide a link to the site you claim to have created that won and an award from your host? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:34 PDT 1996 Article: 56276 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Them lovely "chimneys" - kr2a.jpg (1/1) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:43:58 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 1278 Message-ID: <4uhi9k$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 3:46:44 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 begin 644 kr2a.jpg M_]C_X``02D9)1@`!`@$`2`!(``#_[0"I061O8F5?4&AO=&]S:&]P,BXU.@!( M````2```.$))30/M```````0`$@````!``$`2`````$``3A"24T#\P`````` M"```````````.$))32<0```````*``$``````````CA"24T#]```````$@`U M`````0`M````!@```````3A"24T#]P``````'```____________________ M_________P/H``#_[@`.061O8F4`9(``````_]L`0P`)!@<'!P8)"0D)#@H* M"PX1#PX.#1(:&A40%1@9("`>'Q\>(B,H*24D)24A)RLL+"TO-#0T,RXT-#0T M-#0T-#0T_\``"P@!:`*>`0$1`/_$`-(```$%`0$!`0$!``````````,``0($ M!08'"`D*"Q```00!`P($`@4&!@@'`PUA`0`"$0,$(1(Q!4%181,B<8$R!A21 MH;%"(R054F(S-,%R@D,')9((4]'P8W,U%N&B\;*#)D235&1%PJ-T-A<8TE7B M9?*SA,/3=>/S1B>4I(6TE<34Y/2EM<75Y?569G:&EJ:VQM;F]C='5V=WAY>G MM\?7Y_HJ: MJKK*VNKZ_]T`!`!4_]H`"`$!```_`.-ZU]=\W(>?2O@26'02?/A9.3]9?7:/ M48'D#:/)PX\KT?I?]M3'?6UKVDN>=7>`5VO^V%TS+SJ6[MN/+@]Y(!! 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M;\?;"Q1]4/K97;N'0>H.+7>W]5LB/[U:V=T3ZR78P;_K;SS;`D_8[?\`FJH9 M'U2Z^:`:?J[U'U/SOU6T?\=4:/JQ]::7-#/J_P!1@CW@XEO_`#5#?]3OK';> M3^P.HM9X#$ND_P"U43]3?K+7<-G0.I;)DSB6_EVH^#]6_KA3D^JSH74&%AEL MXENO^T711]ZH#W`X]P/\`O"H. M;]>'W-?_`*W0?O:"L\U_P!L8[JG M=&Z@:"9#/LKR/R2A]0Q?KSFO'VKZOYY#&[6>GBV:#Y,2QZ?KS7`=T#/.T0R< M2WV_[1$H;_;#JJ+3T3-<0\EDXEGMG^HJ>1TWZ]9=@R+>B=0&36X;7C%MX_O( M6E7_`,N&*"\]#SS9.T3C/(C^C`_(@,J_MBUEU[.CYX?.K?LMD'Y;2A9V)_;$ MRR7?LOJ(<8G]6M`^[8H9.#_;"]"EKND]1L+?#&M,?[1`=T3Z\.O#_P!C=0;8 M2"UXQK?;_M(1+ND?VPFE[/V9U`ML'NC&M()^.Q4:/JS]=Z\ICOV-U#U`=+!B MV@#3^A"*SZN_7L9!O'2.HBYK]S'?97P#\P/R*X.C_P!L)U@<>F9PMG=O.,_0 M_`M(0&]`^O5=SS7TG.:YYEY&-;!/]XAY7U7^O?J>HSI6=+HG]7L)_%BE5]7O M[8)=Z7[,S_3<-KMV/9P?BS1=7]4/J;]9L/.K.7AW&@=G,=I_M5W_`.PK#O(--G\[42KZO\` MU_;06LZ=F-;PYKJ+/=_M4.CZC_6YMQ:_IV6*':D"FPZ_WJ%D?4?ZZ&T;.G9> MUH]OZ)^GWM5IOU5^O#7,8<'-],#4"E^G^U4Z/J)];[:[+#AY-<$0WTW@G77\ MU5K_`.U_];!;5&O\` MM;?6L,:YF)>QH:9::WSS_13L_M>_61PAW3,ES7$`[JWC3OIM13_:T^L\RS$N MKKG5NU^ORVK=^JW]KKJ^'U!EN51:^D?28YKA.L_NRO0[NC6.I-5F'8^H_FM# MI^^)1,#I-[*'A^/96X1LVL[#C6%3^L70):RMQGS0,K^UKU:J@W,HR;7"0*Q6^> M%K]._M5OMP:7Y`O:YS0'5>F1!/?A61_:IQ\<$7,OR0=&0T^S[E1_Y:U]%^UC M,IQW!P>*S`5NW^UCZ@'IUWLL=JYQ84G_`-J6D8+)9:+@XEQ:'2=5U']KGZE4 E?5KK&5E5,N:+L85GU6D:[Y[_``7H:22222222222222222__V9-> ` end From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 09:53:35 PDT 1996 Article: 56279 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 23:00:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 40 Message-ID: <4ugg24$mit@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4u3ce6$197@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <3206148B.65D5@unb.ca> <4u776g$6si@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4u92q5$s69@access5.digex.net> <4ubbm1$pqm@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <320A2EA0.A5E@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-43.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 6:02:28 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 14:14:56 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> " The SS forced [women] to wash the stairs leading from the seven >OK - Agreed. >You confess to losing yet another argument. Confess? ======== Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Another gas chamber From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:52:14 GMT Guess what? I found a gas chamber in the old Reich. I have also found powdered cyanide. "Inside the showerbath [ at Dachau]- the gas vents. On the ceiling- the dummy shower heads. In the engineers' room- the intake and outlet pipes. Push buttons to control inflow and outtake of gas. A hand-valve to regulate pressure. Cyanide powder was used to generate the lethal smoke. From the gas chamber, the bodies were removed to the crematory." IMT XXX - p.470. Amazing what you can find if you look around. And holohuggers are going to believe it. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 12:13:30 PDT 1996 Article: 56289 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!kryten.awinc.com!laslo.netnet.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-5.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-dc-2.sprintlink.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:24:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 25 Message-ID: <4uha3h$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u8i96$sc4@news1.panix.com> <4u9h0r$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ubqq0$ndv@news1.panix.com> <4ubti0$pkf@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4uf5js$mbf@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:26:57 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2453 alt.revisionism:56289 alt.conspiracy:76485 alt.politics.white-power:38815 soc.culture.jewish:67383 talk.politics.guns:297108 talk.politics.libertarian:110298 talk.abortion:180978 alt.christnet:90360 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 14:08:07 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <4uf5js$mbf@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com>, >june25@ix.netcom.com(Thomas Ander) wrote: >> Your Granny must have committed a crime against the German government, >> else she would not have been placed in the concentration camp....There >> are women prisoners in every country in the world, why would anyone >> think it unusual because your granny was incarcerated in Germany?....So >> we can incarcerate anyone as long as they are not Jewish??? >What a fascinating thought! > >Okay, please respond to this: > >I had relatives who were babies when they were murdered by the Nazis. > >What crime do you think they committed? Do you have evidence of the murder? I mean like the forensics having been done on the bodies, that sort of thing. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 12:13:32 PDT 1996 Article: 56291 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!chi-news.cic.net!news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!news2.acs.oakland.edu!condor.ic.net!branch.com!aanews.merit.net!news.gmi.edu!news.sojourn.com!newsfeed.concentric.net!news.texas.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.asu.edu!ennfs.eas.asu.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:08:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 247 Message-ID: <4uh942$cn9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u2gvo$ss@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3204dfdc.490260@news.pacificnet.net> <4ucq11$4ef@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4uesdm$lfe@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:10:10 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Aug 1996 08:21:10 GMT, s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan Schneider) wrote: >In article <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt >Giwer) wrote: >> >>On 8 Aug 1996 13:28:01 GMT, s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan >>Schneider) wrote: >> >>>In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel >>>Keren) wrote: >>>> >>>>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes: >>>> >>>># The Peters' report mentions 1 to 2 hours, by Mr.Keren/Nizkor >>>># relating, which was for prussic acid, no mention of Zyklon B, >>>># which the related material Mr.Keren/Nizkor gave included the >>>># statement that grain size was unknown. Who knows? Maybe it >>>># was liquid. >>>> >>>>No, it explicitly says Zyklon was used. Look it up. It's >>>>on the web. >>>> >>>>BTW, the conjecture made by "ehrlich" is irrelevant; the >>>>Paters-Rasch paper is from 1941. >> >>>Not to mention, that liquid hydrocyanic acid explodes, when contacted >>>with oxygen and alcalics. Somebody here doubting that concrete is very >>>alcalic? >> >>It is interesting to read that when cans of ZB were opened they >>exploded. That does sort of make the entire use of ZB rather >>worthless, does it not? >If you properly read, what I've written, then you should be able to see, >that I referred to pure, liquid HCN. Which is a very dangerous substance. >That's why it was adsorbed to a carrier in ZB. Which is wahy the cans >naturally didn't explode at all when opened. As you have read HCN in the wood pulp is a 98-99% pure liquid. It is also interesting that Dupont mentioned sulphuric acic, water and alkaline materials as explosiive but failed to mention oxygen. Do you have an alternative source of information? >>Is there anything else you would like to add to this discussion? Such >>as the english word for alcalic? >Well, it's a mistake that often occurs to germans. Some words are quite >similiar in german and english. I know that it is alcaline. It's the kind >of mistake that happens when writing postings in a hurry. >> In your copious free time, browse this. >Though my free time is far from copious, I took a look at it. I even took >the time to get all the HTML shit out of the text. At least my newsreader >doesn't browse WWW pages. >>HCN Technical >>Hydrogen Cyanide technical >>Chemical composition >>Names >>hydrocyanic acid, prussic acid, hydrogen cyanide >>Boiling point >>25.7C/78.3F at 760 mm Hg >Seems to be a pretty old source you're using. I even can't remember when >the unit [mm Hg] or [Torr] has replaced by [bar] first and by [pascal] >finally. Chemistry changes? >>Specific gravity >>0.69 at 18C/64F >>Vapor density >>0.947 (air = 1) >The value for the vapour density is wrong. It's 0.9 actually. At what temperature? >>Melting point >> >>-13.2C/8.2F >> >>Vapor pressure >> >>750mm Hg at 25C/77F 1200mm Hg at 38C/100F >> >>evaporates easily >Isn't that one of the things the revisionists usually simply don't want to >believe? No. >>Solubility in water >>100% >ROTFL. If you've got a solution of something in water with a concentration >given in percent, and that value is 100%, then there seems to be no water >in that solution. I guess you have to explain this miracle. In what regard do you see that as a problem? >>Appearance >> >>clear >> >>Color >> >>colorless to slightly bluish depending upon concentration >> >>Odor >> >>bitter almond, very mild, non-irritating (odor is not considered a safe >>method of determining presence of the poison) >It's sure no good method, because first you don't smell it but for a very >short time due to the fact that the nerves in the nose get paralyzed >within a very short time. In addition there are some people, who are >unable to smell it at all for genetical reasons. It is interesting that the holohuggers here have claimed it is easy to train people to recognize the smell. I will admit that despite several invitations to lay out the details of the the training process were met with silence. >>Hazards >>Unstable with heat, alkaline materials and water. >>Will explode if mixed with 20% sulfuric acid. >>Polymerization (decomposition) will occur violently with >>heat, alkaline material or water. Once started, reaction is >>autocatalytic and uncontrollable. Will explode. >>Flash point: -18C/0F >>Autoignition temperature: 538C/1000F >>Flammable limits in air (by volume): lower 6%, upper 41% >>Source: Hydrogen Cyanide , Dupont Publication 7-83. >>Commercial sources >>The Dictionary of Chemical Compounds >>Derivation: (a) By catalytically reacting ammonia and air with >>methane or natural gas. (b) By recovery from coke oven gases. (c) From >>bituminus coal and ammonia at 1250 degrees". >>Toxicity by inhalation >>Concentration (mg/m3) Effect >>300 Immediately lethal >>200 Lethal after 10 minutes >>150 Lethal after 30 minutes >>120-150 Highly dangerous (fatal) after 30-60 min. >>50-60 Endurable for 20 min. - 1 h without effect >>20-40 Light symptoms after several hours >>Note these are rules of thumb and are not to be taken as absolutes. >>Death is caused by a total amount per kilogram of body weight that enters >>into the body. In light of that, simply examing the concentrations and >>times reveals there is no direct relationship between them. >These values are correct. And the note is extremely important. You can >assume, that the values are much lower, if you try to gass people >suffering from malnutrition and deseases. However, we were over that many months ago and it was agreed these were healthy and well fed as they were recent arrivals headed directly for the gassing. Also, given the means by which it causes death, it is unclear upon what you base your claim. Next time, read the note completely. >>Many factors could cause this as HCN interferes with the nervous system >>that of course controls breathing. >>Means of toxicity >>Cyanide binds cytochromes much in the same way that oxygen does, by >>conjugating at its open site. Unlike oxygen, cyanide cannot receive >>electrons from cytochrome a3. >> -:C=N: (note - actually a triple bond between C and N) >> | >>---Fe(+2)-- >> | >> His >>With the ETS deprived of its electron "sink", the whole system backs up. >>Without the ETS, oxidative phosphorylation will dissipate the H+ >>gradient, ATP synthesis will stop, and the cell will die. Cyanide binds >>cytochromes more tightly than oxygen, and as a result is lethal >>at very low concentrations, at about 300 ppm. The effect also >>occurs at hemoglobin, as cyanide will bind to that too, >>preventing oxygen from reaching cells. In essence, this is how >>cyanide kills cells and whole organisms. >Correct again. Lethal toxicity is reached at very low concentrations. The >concentration needed (300 mg/m^3) is much lower than the concentration >needed to build up an explosive mixture with air. All that seems to be >unblelievable for revisionists. You posted proof for that. None of which has anything to do with the state of health. I have said nothing about the stuff being explosive. Find someone who did and deal with them. What I have been pointing out is that the descriptions of deaths from ZB do not match the reality of such deaths. >> Hemoglobin >> >>Cyanide is most effective on warmblooded animals such as mammals, but is >>less effective on insects. While insect mitochondria and vertebrate >>mitochondria are not radically different, one thing is: Hemoglobin. >>Vertebrates carry oxygen in their blood via hemoglobin, while >>insects do not carry oxygen in their blood at all. Instead, >>insects have air tubules that carry oxygen directly to all cells >>in their body. Because cyanide poisons hemoglobin too, animals >>that use it are all the more susceptible. Also (while I am not >>sure of this) insects may be more tolerant of anaerobic >>metabolism than vertebrates. >Another thing revisionsists use to doubt, is the fast action of HCN on >warmblooded animals. You are again going to have to find someone who said that and deal with them. They refer to the fumigation times needed for insects >then. You explained very well, why this can't be done. But the metabolism >of invertebrates usually isn't more tolerant of anaerobic metabolism. >Another point making invertebrates less susceptible to HCN is, that they >have a less intense metabolism, as they don't have to produce heat in >order to regulate their body temperature. One of the problems with the descriptions is that, in the most common stories, HCN kills in 10-15 minutes and CO kills in 15-20 minutes. >>Since cyanide binds to hemoglobin much in the same fashion as it binds >>cytochrome a3, cyanide takes hemoglobin out of commission as well. With >>their oxygen carrying molecules bound by cyanide, vertebrates die >>all the faster from asphyxiation. Mammals are also very >>dependent on oxygen- utilizing metabolism, and will die in >>minutes if it is shut off. Insects, lacking hemoglobin, die more >>slowly as their cells must be starved of ATP. Insects may also be >>able to survive longer on anaerobic (non-O2 utilizing) >>metabolism. >So I guess, the discussion about the impossibility of using HCN as a >fumigation agent is over. I was unaware that anyone was saying that. Perhaps you should pay more attention to the discussion before jumping in. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 12:34:59 PDT 1996 Article: 56300 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!gatech!arclight.uoregon.edu!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!uunet!in3.uu.net!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Trolls Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:29:35 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 95 Message-ID: <4uhacf$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix <4udfqh$41d4@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4ug94k$9bu@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:31:43 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Aug 1996 14:04:20 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >In article <4udfqh$41d4@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, >gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: >> Assuming this fictional father even exists, which I don't >> since Giwer has provided absolutely no primary or forensic proof, >> he would likely have acquired the ulcer as a result of Giwer >> being his son. >Of course Mr. Giwer has not provided proof. What on earth >would create such motivation? Mr. Giwer is all >mouth, no proof (perhaps all of his proof resides in bottles >labled "Cherry Jack" - one cannot say). That is not because >Mr. Giwer is stupid (although a case might be made), but >because Mr. Giwer has no interest in honest discussion, and no >amount of shameful behavior is beneath him during his attempts >to avoid such. >He is, of course, a self-confessed liar, and his lofty >pronouncements must be viewed in that light. >As to his Fictional Father, one can only speculate... the ZOG >Telephone Transmitted Golem Bomb does not transmit h.pylori, >and thus cannot implant ulcers, but then, Mr. Giwer knows that. >ZOG's TTGB is far more sophisticated, causing uterine cancer >in 9 of 10 targets. The 10th target receives the uterus, but >not the cancer. >If, therefore, Mr. Giwer's FF has started experiencing >menstrual flow, without any accompanying sign of carcinoma, he >is clearly the 10th. Victim. If, however, the best he can come >up with is an Alleged Ulcer, then I'm afraid ZOG must disclaim >responsibility. Please let us know immediately if pregnancy is >apparent, so we can offer him our sympathy. One 'Junior' is >quite clearly sufficient. >Your ZOG T-shirt was mailed to you this afternoon. Thank you >for your contribution. (The Fatbroads thank you.) >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only >interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and >respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to >URL http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/ >URL http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/ >Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special >newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately >ignored. If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, >redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power, >an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings. >-- >The Nizkor Project | http://www.nizkor.org/ >-----------------------| Random Giwer Whoppers Served Here > |-------------------------------------- > http://www.nizkor.org/cgi-bin/random-giwer-lie.pl ======== Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: No fuel needed From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT "MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a check at each one so that the people believed that they would get their things back ... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened, and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel." IMT XX - p. 494. More Nazi physics at work. I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one. On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could do this? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 12:35:02 PDT 1996 Article: 56303 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!mr.net!newshub.tc.umn.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Creationist/exterminationist similarities Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:59:32 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 59 Message-ID: <4uhj5k$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ueha9$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ufq6g$k2c@lendl.cc.emory.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 4:01:40 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Aug 1996 16:49:20 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c anderson) wrote: >Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: > >: One has to wonder if holohuggers are ever going to be >: studied in such detail. >Sorry, Matt--you're the creationist here. You're the one arguing >a fringe position, not even regarded as worthy of debate by experts >in the field. So did Wegner. So what? You're the one who expects his position to be accepted >without evidence. You're the one who's position requires the existence >of an overarching, airtight conspiracy unlike any the world has over >known before. Never known before? You never heard about the villification of Napoleon? Andersonville? Attilla the Hun? Suliman? The Viet Cong? The Japanese(WW II soldiers)? The American Indians? The Brits and the massacre at Groton, Connecticut? The Germans in WW I? The British in WW I if you look at the other side. All of the above if you look at the other side. One would think you have never even heard of history. What they all have in common is the need for 60-70 years to pass before it is possible to speak about what really happened. You are aware that followers of the dead Napoleon were banned under laws about the same as "neo-nazis" are in Europe today and were just as "dangerous?" In another 10-20 years the quaint stories about gassing are going to be dismissed with the obvious comment. "Cyanide does not work that way" and that will be the end of the discussion. >You're the nut here, Matt. With your inability to produce the slightest bit of physical evidence you are hardly the one to be talking. >Don't believe me? Ask the Howler Monkeys how many of them believe the >Holocaust didn't happen. Get back to me. Ask anyone who has looked for physical evidence and found none if they believe in things for which there is no physical evidence. No rational person does. But rather you would have it that the Nazis managed to commit twelve million murders without leaving the slightest bit of physical evidence. Very clever. Almost clever enough to be oriental. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 15:58:28 PDT 1996 Article: 56328 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nizkor/"Images" and Rip Van Winkle Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:50:35 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 20 Message-ID: <4uhf49$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <3205fa00.587752@news.pacificnet.net> <4u76ui$6si@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <3207900B.5AB4@gryn.org> <4ucet9$8kg@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <320A3CB3.2444@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 2:52:41 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 15:14:59 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> I refer to to the "star wars" and "Mr. Natural" cases for your >> edification. Please do not bother me again until you have reviewed >> them. >I refer to the copyright laws of Canada and the US. >Please do not post nonsense until you learn something. What an honest attorney will tell you is that you know nothing of the law until you know the case law. You must have one or two of that type in Canada. Perhaps you even know one. In the mean time, I direct you to the case law. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 16:58:40 PDT 1996 Article: 56331 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:20:05 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 46 Message-ID: <4uh9qj$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u8i96$sc4@news1.panix.com> <4u9h0r$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ubqq0$ndv@news1.panix.com> <4ubti0$pkf@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ueq8l$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:22:11 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2457 alt.revisionism:56331 alt.conspiracy:76579 alt.politics.white-power:38847 soc.culture.jewish:67402 talk.politics.guns:297223 talk.politics.libertarian:110386 talk.abortion:181014 alt.christnet:90447 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 14:06:11 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <4ueq8l$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> On 8 Aug 1996 05:22:08 GMT, fische11@ix.netcom.com(some bizzare guy on >> the internet) wrote: >> >> >Whoever says the holocaust doesn't exist can talk to my grandmother. >> >She was put in a concentration camp, saw her entire vardo (clan) of 50 >> >people reduced to ashes, and raped numerous times by German officials. >> >Fuck up. >> >> > Robert Rothenbrew >> > http://www.netcom.com/~fische11/ >> > I refuse to engage in a battle of the wits with the unarmed. >> >> It is fascinating that you would invite people to contact your >> grandmother without providing a means to do so. I presume you have at >> least forwarded her name to "Spielberg's List." If not, it would be a >> good thing for you to do. >> >Mr. Giwer's sensitivity never ceases to amaze me. > >Maybe Mr. Rothebrew doesn't want his grandmother HARASSED... right, Mr. >Giwer? Like your FATHER? Remember HIM? > >Mr. Rothenbrew DOES give you a web site where I assume you can contact him >directly. I'd imagine e-mail works just fine, doesn't it? > >I presume you were too stupid to figure this out on your own. > >163. > >Bullshit. > >Sara >-- >"It's always nice to see a prejudice overruled by a deeper prejudice." > John Sayles, _Lone Star_ Are you willing to post the PGP signed message where he assigns you the power to speak for him? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 16:58:41 PDT 1996 Article: 56332 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!csulb.edu!news.sgi.com!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:18:43 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 63 Message-ID: <4uh9o0$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u8i96$sc4@news1.panix.com> <4u9h0r$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ubqq0$ndv@news1.panix.com> <4ubti0$pkf@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ueq8l$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <320B621F.489F@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:20:48 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2458 alt.revisionism:56332 alt.conspiracy:76580 alt.politics.white-power:38848 soc.culture.jewish:67403 talk.politics.guns:297224 talk.politics.libertarian:110387 talk.abortion:181015 alt.christnet:90448 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 12:06:55 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> As you may know, us skeptics NEVER expect any of the raw interviews or >> uneditted transcripts to be released. From what we have now, we know >> that the raw information is the death of the gassing stories. >1. You are not a skeptic. Check out the definition. >2. The raw information verifies the gassing facts. >I can send you that information. If you have anything new, post it. >You keep ignoring the offer, Matt. >The reason is very obvious. The reason is that I want it in public for all to read and discuss. You want to show off your investment in that CD-ROM. >> The raw statements are always agains the gassing stories. As you have >> grossly overstated, all her clan did was die of disease, she saw no >> burning unless other testimony is false. >> >Try again, Matt. >The offer still stands. >Why do you refuse it? >Just ask for it. >You'll get it. I know you will send the mail bomb if you can get me to ask for it. I am not interested. Now why not post it for everyone to read? Does it not bear public scrutiny? >> One would hope that the US government contribution had a string >> requireing full and immediate disclosure without editting in any >> manner. It will be a revisionist treasure trove. But of course, that >> will not be a condition. Holohuggers know better than to agree to >> that sort of thing. >Considering your - er - their penchant for selectivity and creative >editing, why would you want more facts? They only get in your way. Considering how many times I have put back what you editted out just to maintain the sense of a post, it is unclear where you claim is coming from. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 18:55:16 PDT 1996 Article: 38881 of alt.politics.white-power Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!udel-eecis!gatech!news.atl.bellsouth.net!news.mindlink.net!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:23:48 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 29 Message-ID: <4uha1i$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u8i96$sc4@news1.panix.com> <4u9h0r$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ubqq0$ndv@news1.panix.com> <4ubti0$pkf@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4uf5js$mbf@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:25:54 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2464 alt.revisionism:56372 alt.conspiracy:76647 alt.politics.white-power:38881 soc.culture.jewish:67422 talk.politics.guns:297264 talk.politics.libertarian:110442 talk.abortion:181032 alt.christnet:90480 On 9 Aug 1996 10:58:04 GMT, june25@ix.netcom.com(Thomas Ander) wrote: >In <4ubti0$pkf@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> fische11@ix.netcom.com(some >bizzare guy on the internet) writes: >> >>Whoever says the holocaust doesn't exist can talk to my grandmother. >>She was put in a concentration camp, saw her entire vardo (clan) of 50 >>people reduced to ashes, and raped numerous times by German officials. >>Fuck up. >> >> Robert Rothenbrew >> http://www.netcom.com/~fische11/ >> I refuse to engage in a battle of the wits with the unarmed.<< >Your Granny must have committed a crime against the German government, >else she would not have been placed in the concentration camp....There >are women prisoners in every country in the world, why would anyone >think it unusual because your granny was incarcerated in Germany?....So >we can incarcerate anyone as long as they are not Jewish??? >Every Jewish woman from that era claims rape by the Germans....I think >Grany is just flattering herself by telling you that. Granny reminds me a bit of the man who remembered being gassed six times. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 19:40:18 PDT 1996 Article: 56373 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G. Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:09:31 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 617 Message-ID: <4uhcnk$140@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <32042ADD.51A2@infinop.com> <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32075137.6FD4@gryn.org> <4u9erm$1rb@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <320A2D13.15FB@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl8-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 2:11:48 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 14:08:19 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 10:05:43 -0400, Alec Grynspan >> wrote: >> >> >Try again, Matt. Numbers are numbers. Prove your contentions - or admit >> >that you're BSing to keep from admitting your ignorance. >> >> The research amounting to speaking to people with years in the >> cremation business and who have testified on the subject in court has >> been posted here. If you were so busy you missed it, go find it on >> DejaNews. >URL, PLEASE! Why a URL when you can have the real thing? ======== Path: ix.netcom.com!ix.netcom.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier..net!netaxs..com!news..dra..com!imci2!news..internetMCI..com!newsfeed..internetmci..com!in3..uu..net!newsflash..concordia..ca!news..nstn..ca!ott..istar!istar..net!tor..istar!east..istar!newsjunkie..ans..net!newsfeeds..ans..net!rcogate..rco..qc..ca!news..interlink..net!Rezonet..net!Vir..com!usenet From: Jean-Francois Beaulieu Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Lagace's testimony Date: 4 Aug 1996 22:31:06 GMT Organization: Communications Vir, Internet Access Montreal. Lines: 279 Message-ID: <4u38ba$fq1@Vir.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: ipdyne31.vir.com IVAN LAGACƒ[ Ivan Lagace was the fourteenth witness called by the defence. He testified on Tuesday, April 5 and Wednesday, April 6, 1988.] Ivan LagacŽ was tendered as an expert in the practical aspects of crematorium practices. LagacŽ worked as a professional embalmer-funeral director, and crematory manager and operator at the Bow Valley Crematorium in Calgary, Alberta. He had completed the two and a half year Funeral Services programme at Humber College in Ontario and in 1979 obtained his diploma and Ontario license. In 1983 he obtained his Alberta license. (27-7383, 7393; qualified to give opinion evidence at 27-7394)) Lagace testified that while a crematoria business required licensing, the personnel themselves required no licence or certification. This applied to Canada, the United States and Mexico. Crematorium operators were trained by factory representatives in the operation of the equipment. Most operators were members of the Cremationists Association of North America, a self-governing association which sets voluntary standards for crematorium operation. (27-7384, 7385) In the course of his career, Lagace had dealt with over 10,000 bodies in his work and had cremated over 1,000 bodies. The work involved bodies in a variety of physical conditions, from accident and fire victims to people who died of highly contagious diseases. (27-7385, 7386)Cremation Process With the use of a flow schematic drawing, Lagace explained the three basic processes of cremation which applied to any crematorium built from 1800 onwards. In the first stage, the human remains (referred to by crematory operators as the "fuel") were placed in the main ignition chamber. The body could be in a container such as a casket or not, but it was definitely easier to burn the body without a container because there was less fuel to burn. Although it depended on the design of the unit, the body would usually be placed through the loading door feet first. (27-7396, 7397, 7398) At that point, the heat source was employed, most modern crematories using gas-fired or oil-fired burners. The fuel (human remains) was ignited. Temperatures became extremely hot, normally reaching 2,000 degrees, and depending upon the fuel, could go as high as 2,250 degrees Fahrenheit. (27-7399) From the main ignition chamber, the gasses were sucked at a high velocity into a mixing chamber and thereafter through a series of baffles until the gasses were finally expelled outside through a tall stack. The main purpose of the mixing chamber and baffles was the elimination of any smoke or odour emissions. The baffles achieved this by forcing the escaping gasses through a series of twists and turns, creating turbulence or mixture. A secondary burner could be employed at this point to burn off any remaining gasses and smoke particles, but, LagacŽ explained, it was not usually necessary. Because of the high temperatures, all that was needed to be introduced was more oxygen. This induced a secondary burn within the after-burner portion of the crematory unit. (27-7399, 7400) Cremation reduced the human remains to calcium. These particles were sucked from the cremation chamber into a space called the settling chamber. Because of the larger size of the settling chamber, the vacuum pressure dropped, causing the calcium particulates to fall down. LagacŽ explained that the settling chamber filled rather quickly and, depending on the number of cremations, had to be checked regularly and cleaned at least once a month. Most crematoria usually maintained a log of clean-ups. As a result of these processes, nothing but clean hot air escaped up the stack. (27-7400 to 7402) LagacŽ testified that because of Bow Valley Crematorium's extremely high stack, 45 feet versus the normal 15 feet, a high velocity draft was created drawing very large volumes of oxygen into the cremation chamber. The more oxygen that was provided, the higher the temperatures would go. As a result, crematory temperatures were passing 2,200 degrees Fahrenheit, exceeding the tolerance level of the bricks. This caused Bow Valley's refractory to fail, requiring re-bricking of the entire machine besides the stack itself. (27-740 (27-7402, 7403) Nevertheless, because of its high stack, the Bow Valley Crematorium was the hottest, and therefore, the fastest crematory in operation in North America, with the capacity to cremate one adult human body in a minimum time of an hour and a half under optimum circumstances. Children took much less time to cremate simply because of their smaller size. Bodies with a moderate amount of fat were easier to cremate than skinny people. Fat was a good fuel which ignited instantly upon exposure to the flame. A tremendous surge of heat would result, actually aiding in the cremation process. A person with no fat on their body was very "stubborn" fuel to burn because it consisted mainly of wet tissues. (27-7405, 7406, 7407) The torso was the most difficult part of the human body to cremate because of its bulk and thickness. (27-7426) After the initial surge of heat from the ignition of body fat, the temperature in the retort would drop to around 1,900 degrees and would remain at that level until the cremation was at least 80 percent complete. Thereafter, the temperature further declined to about 1,600 degrees until the end of the cremation cycle. (27-7425, 7426) Lagace next took the jury through the Operations of Cremation Equipment Manual which set out operating procedures for crematories. The manual warned the operator, for the first case of the day, to "check and see that the ash tray is installed in the ash pit" and warned that "failure to have the ash tray installed can cause/or result in fire outside the Retort!" (27-7407: Manual filed as Exhibit 105 at 27-7422) ) LagacŽ explained the importance of this procedure, especially in the case of obese cases, where incomplete combustion of body fats occurred. In such an event, the burning body fats dripped into the waterproof ash pan and continued to burn there. If the ash pan wasn't there, however, the fluid would leak outside of the retort and cause a fire outside the crematory. (27-7407, 7408) After checking for the ash pan, an operator started the preheat cycle for the afterburn chamber. This chamber was heated to create or establish the draft in the stack. The preheat cycle took approximately twenty minutes to reach 800 degrees Fahrenheit. After the preheating, the fuel (human remains) was introduced into the ignition chamber on rollers, the main burner ignited and the cremation process commenced. (27-7408, 7409, 7410) LagacŽ pointed out that the Manual contained the warning that: "Use of any metal type roller will cause excessive wear on the floor tile and shorten the life period of the floor tile." He explained that the refractory tiles used on the floor of the ignition chamber tended to wear out very quickly because of the wear and tear of the rollers and because this was where the fuel ignited and burned. LagacŽ himself had worn out floor titles after only 250 cremations by using metal rollers. Once the wear started it was extremely difficult to stop. (27-7410, 7411) To repair the unit in such circumstances the operator had to cease operation of the retort, allow the machine 48 hours of cooling down time with the door fully open, and preferably with a fan flowing through the machine. The bricks or tiling then had to be removed and new ones cemented. The average life expectancy of floor refractory was 1,500 cremations. The bricks of the retort's walls and ceilings were rated for 3,000 cremations while the bricks of the afterburn chamber were rated for roughly 2,000 cremations. (27-7411) The time to cremate a human being (the cremation cycle) took an average of two hours. After the first cremation of the day was completed, the operator must let the retort cool-down for a minimum of one hour before beginning the second case. After the second cremation, a cool-down period of at least two hours was required. Even with cool-down times, LagacŽ testified that cremations could not be done "24 hours a day, round the clock, day after day...the refractory will not tolerate it." Factory recommendation for normal operation was a maximum of three cases per day in a normal eight hour work day. No more than 50 - 60 cases should be processed in any month so that the refractory life was prolonged. That was an average of 2 cases a day. (27-7412 to 7415; There was no way to speed up this process, LagacŽ testified, without effecting the refractory brick and endangering the life of the operator. If no cool-down period was allowed between cremations, the temperature would go out of control and probably exceed the 2,200 degrees Fahrenheit rated for the bricks. This would cause excessive spalling, or flaking, of the bricks. Secondly, the operator could not safely open a retort having an internal temperature of 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. "I have to allow for cool-down time, for my safety," said LagacŽ, "and to bring the temperature in the retort to a point where there is safe loading of the next case." (27-7412, 7413) LagacŽ testified that he had "burned my hair and my face often enough to learn that I don't attempt to open the door when the temperatures are excessive. It just can't be done, unless perhaps you are wearing a full asbestos suit. From my experience with asbestos garment, they prevent flame from contacting you, but they still get very hot." (27-7414) LagacŽ emphasized the real dangers involved if the cool-down periods were not followed. If an operator attempted to introduce a body into the retort when temperatures were still excessive, a "flash ignition" could occur whereby the body would ignite before it was fully introduced into the retort. In such a case, the operator would be engulfed in flames from the burning body and would be unable to close the door to the retort. To put it simply, he said, "you can basically walk away and watch your building burn down." (27-7415, 7416) You can introduced a sample brick into evidence which the jury was allowed to handle. The brick was extremely light and brittle making it an extremely good insulator, insulator, but also very delicate: "I could take an ordinary handsaw and cut it in half." The brick was able to withstand 2,600 degrees Fahrenheit, and was therefore a little better than the average firebrick. (27-7422, 7423, 7424; brick entered as Exh. 106 at 27-7423) In a new crematory, the new refractory brick had to be cured or dried out during a break-in cycle of one cremation per day for 25 days. If this number was exceeded, refractory failure would certainly be caused. (27-7428) During normal cremations, there was some flaking of brick, wearing it from the inside to the outside. If the brick was overheated, however, it would simply crack along its length to about one half of its depth, thereby causing premature failure. In such a case, the fire would not be contained within the retort and the metal superstructure, which supported the retort, would buckle. Eventually, testified LagacŽ, the retort would collapse and a fire would occur outside the cremation chamber. (27-7424, 7425) During cool-down, LagacŽ shut down the natural gas burner used to fire the crematory and pumped air through the chamber. Older furnaces, he said, had been coal-fired, and had been difficult to cool down simply because the operators could not shut the heat off: "Once coal is burning, unless you remove it, the heat is still being produced." Coal-fired furnaces thus prevented any quick cool-down to occur and in fact required "enormous amounts" of time to cool. (27-7426)Birkenau Crematories LagacŽ testified that the plans for the Birkenau crematory indicated that it had been built to almost the exact specifications of the Bow Valley Crematorium. Using an overhead of the Birkenau plan, LagacŽ pointed out the crematory's cremation chamber, the flame port, the smoke channel and settling chamber and the afterburner. He testified that it was obvious that the Germans were concerned with environmental effects. (27-7430) LagacŽ found the most amazing and unique part of the Birkenau crematory to be the stack, calculated to be 45 feet high, and therefore very similar to Bow Valley Crematorium's stack. In LagacŽ's opinion, the rate of burn of the Birkenau unit would be as efficient but not more than his own unit in Calgary. (27-7432) The only technology difference that LagacŽ could see between his own crematory and those of Birkenau was the burner section. LagacŽ's as crematory used a natural gas burner while Birkenau used a stoking system with coal or something of a similar nature. The technology of LagacŽ's crematory allowed him to shut the gas off for cooling. Coal was very cumbersome in that regard and this would affect the time limit since the operator could not go through a cooling cycle as quickly. (27-7450) LagacŽ was shown a photograph of one of the Birkenau crematories taken during the war and asked if the units looked familiar to his own crematory. LagacŽ agreed that they were. He indicated, however, that the Birkenau retorts had been built in units of three with common walls between them. This would have eliminated the need for extra bricks and been much easier and quicker to construct. However, he noted, "should one of these need to be maintained or need any repairs, it would necessitate the shutdown of the other two [retorts]...attached to it, because you can't have temperatures of 2,000 degrees radiating into an area where you're working on another retort." LagacŽ believed that this design would never be used in a modern crematory simply because, as a business, it could not afford to have a shutdown of three units if one broke down. (27-7438, 7439)Holocaust Claims of Numbers ofCremations at Auschwitz-Birkenau: LagacŽ was asked to comment on the claims made by Raul Hilberg in The Destruction of the European Jews (2nd ed., page 978) with respect to the capacities of the 46 retorts in the four crematories at Birkenau. Hilberg claimed: The theoretical daily capacity of the four Birkenau crematoria was somewhat o over 4,400, but, with breakdowns and slowdowns, the practical limit was almost always lower. LagacŽ stated that this claim was "preposterous" and "beyond the realm of reality." To claim that 46 retorts could cremate over 4,400 bodies in a day was "ludicrous." Based on his own experience, LagacŽ testified that it would only have been possible to cremate a maximum of 184 bodies a day at Birkenau. (27-7436, 7437, 7438) LagacŽ was referred to page 17 of Did Six Million Reall Really Die? where Harwood stated: Ľ Although Reitlinger's 6,000 a day would mean a total by October 1944 of over 5 million, all such estimates pale before the wild fantasies of Olga Lengyel in her book Five Chimneys (London, 1959). Claiming to be a former inmate of Auschwitz, she asserts that the camp cremated no less than "720 per hour, or 17,280 corpses per twenty-four hour shift." She also alleges that, in addition, 8,000 people were burned every day in the "death-pits", and that therefore "In round numbers, about 24,000 corpses were handled every day" (p. 80-1). This, of course, would mean a yearly rate of over 8-1/2 million. Thus between March 1942 and October 1944 Auschwitz would finally have disposed of over 21 million people, six million more than the entire world Jewish population. Comment is superfluous. LagacŽ testified that from his own experience in cremating approximately 1,000 bodies, the figures cited by Reitlinger and Lengyel were not realistic. The person citing such figures, he said, was, "irresponsible... with his facts because this doesn't even begin to enter reality at all. It's just physically unrealistic." LagacŽ said that even with present disaster plans, which provide for massive mobilization and the handling of large numbers of human remains, it would be "unimaginable" to cremate such numbers. (27-7447) Under the disaster plans of LagacŽ's association, bodies would be transported from a disaster scene to a local temporary morgue, which usually would be the nearest arena and the bodies placed on the ice. The person orchestrating the actions of the crematory managers would be the medical examiner. At his instructions, after he had completed any investigations, the bodies would be removed from the temporary facilities and normal funeralization would proceed. If all corpses were to be cremated, the bodies would have to be placed in refrigerated storage to allow time to cremate. (27-7448, 7449) LagacŽ referred to the 1985 issue of a statistical sheet compiled yearly by the Cremation Association of North America, showing the numbers of retorts located on the continent and the number of cremations done annually. The statistics indicated that in 1985, there were a total of 338,370 bodies cremated in 931 crematories in North America. In Canada alone, a total of 49,216 cremations were performed in 94 crematories. (27-7432, 7433, 7434)Open Air Burning: LagacŽ testified that he had observed the results of burning people in the open in a case involving a homicide where the murderer had attempted to burn the remains of his victim with gasoline in an open area in the woods of northern Ontario. He had been unable to do so. Human bodies did not burn completely in open spaces. In 90 percent of the cases, it would be the epidermis or the skin that would be charred; maybe perhaps the limbs would be burnt, but the torso was very difficult to cremate. It took high temperatures over a prolonged period of time in order to fully cremate a human being. (27-7441) Moreover, an open air burning would require far more fuel. In a retort there was a controlled optimum atmosphere. In open air, heat constantly escaped so that it was very difficult to concentrate all the heat into one area. (27-7446)Decomposition of Corpses and Handling ofTyphus Infected Corpses: LagacŽ testified that there would be a problem with decomposition if bodies were left for a period of one to two days. Upon death, the body's defence systems shut down, leaving any bacteria or viruses in the body "a free rein to wreak their havoc." There was a rise in the body temperature and gasses began to be produced. Within hours to a day, bloating caused by tissue gas would cause, for example, a leg to quadruple in its size. It would be an extremely unpleasant and dangerous situation if contagious diseases were involved. Tissue gas was highly contagious and adhered to any equipment such as the floor, the tables, any instruments used on the bodies. (27-7443, 7444) LagacŽ described the procedures enforced by the Alberta government in the case of corpses infected with typhus. At his discretion, the medical officer of health may step in before the body is even removed from the hospital and specify and order the funeral home to follow certain procedures in dealing with the body. These included the wearing of protective clothing when handling the remains, the destruction of that clothing and the containers that the body was placed in. In a case of typhus, the medical officer would likely order a direct cremation as this was the most effective way of dealing with something that volatile. If the body was buried, it had to be encased in a hermetically sealed container which would last over a prolonged period of time and only when the soil conditions allowed this, in order to avoid contamination of the water-table or underground streams. (27-7444, 7445) Cross-Examinination: In response to a question by Judge Thomas, LagacŽ testified that there were six retorts in Calgary, a city with a population of about 650,000; the ratio thus being roughly one retort for every 100,000 persons. Crown counsel Pearson asked LagacŽ that if this ratio was applied to the 46 retorts at Birkenau, the number would be 4.6 million. LagacŽ agreed. (27-7452 to 7454) Crown counsel suggested to Lagace that when he ran his crematory he did so in conformity with Alberta law, conscious of ecology, operating the facility with the safety of employees as a paramount consideration with a view to maximizing profit and minimizing costs, and maximizing the life of the equipment by minimizing wear and tear. Lagace agreed. He also agreed that he had no experience operating in a system that placed no legal restrictions on how many bodies could be cremated, that had as its goal, not profit, but simply disposing of as many bodies as possible. (27-7454 to 7456) Wasn't it true, asked Pearson, that many facilities such as municipal garbage disposal facilities or blast furnaces had furnaces that ran continually? Lagace replied that he was not familiar with blast furnaces or other such facilities and had not enquired into their operation. As to his knowledge of ceramics, he testified that the thermocouple, a giant thermometer used in the crematory to record temperatures, was encased in ceramic but had to be changed about every 1,000 cremations because the ceramic would burn out. (27-7456, 7457) Lagace agreed that he was very surprised that the Birkenau crematory was a facility which rivalled the Calgary operation as far as efficiency and design were concerned. He agreed that Auschwitz was forty years ahead of its time when it came to cremating. (27-7458) On re-examination, LagacŽ testified that there had not been any typhus epidemics in Calgary recently. He agreed that any economic motivation he might have did not affect his capacity to complete cremations. (27-7458, 7459) >I might be too busy for more than a few hurried postings, but I do read >the stuff. >The folks who testified in court upheld the evidence of the cremation >processes and only differed as to how many their low-volume designs >delivered under virtually stressless conditions versus high-volume, >high-stress conditions. As you now know differently, the Kremas being 40 years ahead of their time, the 1 1/2 cremation time for an adult and the like, what does it have to do with your claim of low volume when the one under discussion is hotter and not as fast. >> While you are searching you should also read the discussion on the >> incongruous decision to build crematoria instead of faster >> incinerators. >Non-sequitur. Inconsequential. Why they did what they did contains >variables that go outside of engineering. What might those variables be? >That they chose an approach that is not identical with what you would >have done has no bearing on whether or not they did it. What has bearing is that they chose a slower approach over one that might have gotten into the time frame required by the "eyewitness" reports. >> You have missed so much in this disucussion that it behooves you to >> bring yourself up to speed before engaging in the discussion. >I missed very little, if anything, Matt. >I would suggest that this is yet another way of getting me to stop >pointing out your errors. And of course I will be expecting you to, for the first time, post my "errors." You can start with the large inclusion above. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 19:40:19 PDT 1996 Article: 56374 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!winternet.com!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.texas.net!cdc2.cdc.net!imci4!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Creationist/exterminationist similarities Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 05:09:41 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 47 Message-ID: <4ueha9$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-30.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Thu Aug 08 10:11:37 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Science News, 8 June 1996, When Science and Beliefs Collide by Janet Raloff, middle column, page 361. Miller, whose study compares scientific literacy in 15 industrialized nations, argues that creationism "is a peculiarity of the American landscape." His data indicate that U.S. creationists often accept some aspects of science that do not address biological evolution. In fact, he suspects that the adamancy of belief in creationism traces to the litmus test that many U.S. fundamentalist sects use for membership: literal acceptance of the biblical account in Genesis of God's weeklong creation of the unive and everything in it some 6,000 to 10,000 years ago. "Those people who reject evolution tell us at the same time that there are thousands of planets in the universe on which life might have developed-which is not a Genesis point of view," says Miller. "They will also agree with the statement that the continents on which we live have been moving in their locations for millions of years." This popular version of plate tectonics also violates the biblical timetable. The good news, Miller says, is that 80 percent of U.S. adults, including many creationists, believe the benefits of science outweigh its harms. While Losh accepts Miller's data, she does not share his generally rosy view of what they imply for scientific literacy and appreciation. What fundamentalists really like, her results suggest, is not science but the fruits of science, such as vaccines against infectious diseases, cleaner water, and especially technology~ Her studies indicate that they don't welcome the untethered inquiry that led to those fruits-and that scares her. Creationists prefer thinking that is geared toward accepting the word of church-approved authorities without question, Losh finds. This approach to learning may produce good tecbnologists, she argues, "but it doesn't tend to generate good science." ===== One has to wonder if holohuggers are ever going to be studied in such detail. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 19:40:20 PDT 1996 Article: 56375 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!news.alt.net!news1.alt.net!news.oz.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-ana-24.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-3.sprintlink.net!news.sprintlink.net!news-stk-11.sprintlink.net!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: the Zyklon B graph - zb.jpg (1/1) Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:39:20 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 75 Message-ID: <4uhhvo$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4uegil$cra@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 3:41:28 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 18:51:52 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >Rudolph himself seems to agree this graph isn't worth >much; he apparently reconstructed it from *one* data >point. He chose an exponential function because, so >he said, it's the "fastest decreasing mathematical >function", which must be one of the stupidest things >I heard in my life. I have no idea what you are talking about. Both an exponential and a polynomial curve fit are given. I would presume the R values were equivalent. As everyone should know, any curve can be represented by any other curve with only quality of fit being of interest. >The graph presented here cannot be true, as it contradicts >the much more accurate information from the Peters-Rasch >paper: in far lower temperatures, there was no residue >detected in the Zyklon after an hour, or at most two. If there is MORE accurate information in that paper, POST THE GRAPH given in that paper. Post the paper at least. >It also contradicts the information in Dr. Peter's book >that the large part evaporates in half-an-hour. Then you need to learn the technical term in German. >The simplest explanation is that we're talking about >two different products: one manufactured today vs. >the wartime Zyklon. Other possibility is that Rudolph >is lying through his teeth, as he did when misquoting >Dr. Peters' book. More Nazi physics at work. >All that being said: this is a matter not of crucial >importance. Even if the graph was indeed as Rudolph >claims it to be, there would be no problems with >using it to kill people in the Auschwitz gas chambers. Go take another look at it and note the amount released in the 10-15 minute time frame which is the most common description of the time frame. THEN calculate backwards to find the amount that had to be dumped in to achieve lethality in that time frame. And then, when you discover that two people could not carry enough to do it, explain why they were in such a hurry to kill when cremation was the bottleneck in the operation. You do claim to be a mathematician. This should be a very simple calculation for you. Please post your results. On the other hand, why is it that a noted mathematician has never taken the time to devote his talents to providing a numerical foundation for the gassing stories? I would have thought that you would have knocked that off in a couple weeks and added it to the support of gassing. For you it should be quite simple. Here is a hint. Eyeball the 15 minute line and find 20%. Presume that resulted in the equivalent of 300 ppm so use a straight line approxiamation and go back to 7.5 minutes and assume that was 150 ppm to achieve the lethality in the required time. Then take into consideration the volume of air in the room, the fraction of ZB that is HCN, and calculate the weight of ZB that had to be put in to achieve these results. Then estimate what men can carry up a ladder. Show your work save for the calculator steps. No hand waving, just do it. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 19:40:21 PDT 1996 Article: 56376 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Extermination or Sterilization Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:32:11 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4uhah9$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u6rmj$t3l@juliana.sprynet.com> <4u9jor$4ds@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4uek86$dgq@access5.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:34:17 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Aug 1996 02:01:42 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4u9jor$4ds@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>On 6 Aug 1996 07:19:47 GMT, rblackmore@juno.com wrote: >> >>>Why was SS doctor Clauberg at Auschwitz in 1943 allegedly doing research >>>on sterilization methods to be used in regard to the Jews > I believe you will find that the SS had some interest in the >possibility of sterilizing some other groups as well. >>> if the SS had orders to exterminate them? So many stories.....so many >>>lies. >> What was someone allegedly doing something? >> I wonder why the holohuggers are allegedly screwing small farm animals >>for the same reasons. >> >> Is it not amazing that they hold and document a huge conference at >>Wannsee to create a smoking gun for the holohuggers to point to and >>then never another word, meeting, whatever. > Posen, 4th October 1943. > Himmler's speech is on tape. At this meeting, which the confessed >liar Matt Giwer falsely claims never happened, Himmler speaks of the >extermination ("Ausrottung") of the Jewish people. Just to make the point >clear for slow people like Mr. Giwer, he talks of corpses and compares it >to a previous episode of murder. > Physical evidence. Produced by the Americans, by the way, not the >Russians. The interesting part of the speech story is that Hitler himself was there to hear it. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 19:40:21 PDT 1996 Article: 56383 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:28:16 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 16 Message-ID: <4uhaa0$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4uf0ea$kno@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> <4ufefc$lrj@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:30:24 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Aug 1996 13:29:16 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> When you ask for my daughter's number you are ready for the grave. > Ooooo. Another threat. Golly gee. I'm really worried. > I think I'll make the call tonight. Please do. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sat Aug 10 23:36:59 PDT 1996 Article: 56394 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!overload.lbl.gov!marlin.ucsf.edu!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:17:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4uhgmj$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u7v5l$f7d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3208abcf.351080@news.pacificnet.net> <3209ea0c.853809@news.pacificnet.net> <4uf3k7$36d@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <320b42ba.1615344@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 3:19:31 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 13:56:23 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> You have been the strongest supporter of CO at Treblinka and suddenly >>when it is not the hottest thing since sex in another place you are >>all over it. >> >> This is the usual holohugging crap. Used Russian and German for that >>matter tank engines were as available at A-B as at Treblinka. >> >> Deal with reality, not with the spin you think you can put on it. > > It doesn't really matter what Mr.Keren has to say on the agents >of mass extermination. The idea is so ridiculous most people I have >told about it get that 'looking sideways' expression on their face. > It is just another part of the Holocaust Achilles heal. An interesting approach for a website. Just very clearly and simply lay out exactly what the eyewitnesses reported in all their gruesome detail including everything that is ridiculous. And of course offering no opinions on the matter, simply recounting it all. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 01:34:18 PDT 1996 Article: 56410 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:06:38 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <4ujmcm$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u8i96$sc4@news1.panix.com> <4u9h0r$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ubqq0$ndv@news1.panix.com> <4ubti0$pkf@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4uf5js$mbf@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <4uha3h$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:08:54 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2467 alt.revisionism:56410 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:09:17 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <4uha3h$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> Do you have evidence of the murder? I mean like the forensics having >> been done on the bodies, that sort of thing. > >No forensic studies, Mr. Giwer. > >Just a pit in the town of Stolin, filled with the bodies of the former >Jewish inhabitants of the shtetl there. > >I have photographs of that pit, including a monument placed there by the >Soviet "liberators." > >Why don't you go there and visit it for yourself? > >I say it happened. I have the history, the photographs, and an eyewitness. > >Prove me wrong. Prove you wrong? You are making the assertion. That is up to you. How many bodies? How was the religion determined? What was the cause of death? What were the circumstances around the deaths? A quick suggestion is that they were guerilla fighters and died in a reprisal. The rules of warfare at the time prohibited guerilla fighters and resistance movements. Resistance under the rules at the time was murder. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 01:34:23 PDT 1996 Article: 56411 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.compuserve.com!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:31:07 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 44 Message-ID: <4uf0ki$kno@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4u984g$pm8@news.iglobal.net> <4ubbi4$pqm@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4ue7o4$6uf@access5.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:33:06 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 8 Aug 1996 22:28:20 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4ubbi4$pqm@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>On 7 Aug 1996 05:04:16 GMT, patchwgl@infinop.com (Gary) wrote: >>>There is a relatively easy "test" for anyone with a couple of bucks and >>>a few free minutes: simply go to the local Wal-Mart or similar, buy a >>>box of activated charcoal from the aquarium supplies section and toss >>>some of the contents into a sinkful of water. It is readily apparent >>>that the activated charcoal (which is made by burning cattle bones) is >>>approx. 1 cm sieve crush, frequently floats (due to surface tension), >>>and is easily moved about by even gentle currents. >> >> Whatever the source of activated charcoal, and I sincerely doubt you >>have the source correct due to the lack of carbon in bones, > You are just a fountain of ignorance, aren't you? > Hydroxyapatite Crystals - Hydroxyapatite crystals make up the > inorganic component of bone. They contain calcium phosphate, calcium > carbonate and small amounts of magnesium, hydroxide, fluoride and > ^^^^^^^^^ > sulfate (composition varies with age and diet). > Of course this also makes your other assertion, about bones being made >of "calcium oxide," rather ridiculous as well. Tell it to the idiots are who claiming it floats. Then get back to me. You have just shot down your fellow holohuggers and do not know. What an asshole. >Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. >POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official >Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 01:34:25 PDT 1996 Article: 56415 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!uwm.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:08:15 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4uk118$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tuuee$5k2@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4u2kka$255@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4u9glq$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ugeru$l3s@arl-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:10:32 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 22:44:19 GMT, 100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>>Indeed. The gas chambers of Krema II and III were ventilated with outside >>>air. During the _summer_ when the outside air temperature was _higher_ >>>than the temperature in the gas chambers. Ergo, the gas chambers were >>>preheated. (During the winter the gas chambers were preheated with buckets >>>of red-hot coke.) >> It is amazing what you folks will fabricate when you you are >>desperate. As we all know, not even a fan has been found much less >>the specification for the fan, much less the drawings of the >>preheating chamber. >It's funny, or better I have to say that it is sad. The exhaust fans >were retrieved right after the war. It was a lot of CN- on the fans. >It's well known and you certainly knew this. You make it up as you go along. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 01:34:35 PDT 1996 Article: 56419 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:08:40 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 42 Message-ID: <4uk121$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tuuee$5k2@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4u2kka$255@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4u9glq$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ugeru$l3s@arl-news-svc-2.compuserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:10:57 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 20:36:32 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article <4ugeru$l3s@arl-news-svc-2.compuserve.com>, >100644.317@compuserve.com (Miloslav Bilik) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >> >>Indeed. The gas chambers of Krema II and III were ventilated with outside >> >>air. During the _summer_ when the outside air temperature was _higher_ >> >>than the temperature in the gas chambers. Ergo, the gas chambers were >> >>preheated. (During the winter the gas chambers were preheated with buckets >> >>of red-hot coke.) >> >> > It is amazing what you folks will fabricate when you you are >> >desperate. As we all know, not even a fan has been found much less >> >the specification for the fan, much less the drawings of the >> >preheating chamber. >> >> It's funny, or better I have to say that it is sad. The exhaust fans >> were retrieved right after the war. It was a lot of CN- on the fans. >> It's well known and you certainly knew this. >At one time, the Troll may have known this. He was surely told enough >times. However, considering his advanced state of dementia, it is quite >likely that he has a problem with his long-term memory. Like anything >longer than 30 seconds. >Sad indeed. >Mark >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- >"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes >not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but >right through every human heart--and all human hearts." >-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago" >-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- You both make it up as you go along. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 01:34:38 PDT 1996 Article: 56420 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: "Ash Gets In Your Eyes" - Giwer's New Theme Song Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:11:08 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <4uk16l$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <320642ED.7639@unb.ca> <4u9jf5$7ar@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4ucsdv$esd@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4uev0i$drk@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <320c895b.1741209@news.inetport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:13:25 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:28:00 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On 8 Aug 1996 14:09:03 GMT, anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote: >> >>>Annie Alpert >>> The Nizkor Project: >>>Fighting hate and anti-Semitism on the Internet >>> * * * On the web * * * >>> WWW.Nizkor.org >> >> Why are you wasting your time with this crap when the internet >>cremation society has a website and has the raw data you are guessing >>at in a FAQ? >> >> The link has been posted here many times. >> >Does it bother you? Good. >Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com >For More Information try The Nizkor Project >Nizkor (USA) An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource >Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? >Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ >Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!) It does not bother me in the least. It is simply that I like to point out when holohugger refuse to deal with facts that are available to them. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 01:34:40 PDT 1996 Article: 56421 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:00:57 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 60 Message-ID: <4uk0ji$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <887cc$16133b.3ab@news.comet.net> <320B4407.5D68@gryn.org> <4ugeer$imc@newsgate.dircon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:03:14 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82415 alt.revisionism:56421 talk.politics.european-union:5444 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 22:30:17 GMT, rikrob@dircon.co.uk (Robert Smith) wrote: >Alec Grynspan wrote: >>George F. Hardy wrote: >>> >>> I suggest that you compare the Mission Statement with the numbers: >>> 6,000,000 Jews >>> 5,000,000 Russians (non-Jews) >>> 2,000,000 Poles (non-Jews) >>> 500,000 Gypsies >>> 500,000 Others. >>> >>> You will see that the numbers reflect many more Poles and Russians >>> then Gypsies, but Gypsies were mentioned second. And Russians >>> were not really mentioned at all, considerting, by these numbers >>> they totaled 35%, plus Russian Jews. >>Because Jews and Gypsies were singled out to be utterly annihilated. >>Not enslaved or as subordinates - annihilated. >>The Russians and Poles were murdered because they were in the way. >>The Jews and Gypsies because they were Jews and Gypsies, regardless of >>nationality. >>The Holocaust Museum is about that - so Gypsies get a second position by >>numbers. >So it's worse to murder someone because of who they are rather than >'because they were in the way'. Rubbish, MURDER is MURDER. Well said. It is interesting that holohuggers try to create degrees of murder by motivation. It is something rather unique to the hate crime, mind reading fantasy. >When Israel MURDERS Palestinians 'because they are in the way' thats >not as bad as murdering them because their Arabs. >The deaths in the concentration camps were appalling, as someone who >was a child in the late 40's/early 50's the pictures had a profound >affect upon me. Perhaps it was worse in that it happened in Western >Europe where we thought we were civilised. Nothing can diminish the >horror. It was worse because photography had been invented and that it was recorded for you to see. Hundreds occurred before and about a dozen since. Exact numbers of couse will vary. Consider the "horrors" in Haiti based upon a half dozen pictures. Consider the 1 million in Cambodia based upon no pictures. Which got the nation's attention? Consider the foolishness/complicity of the US media not covering the deaths on Serbia? Consider the complicity of the US media not covering the reason the UN found that Israel targeted the Qana refugee camp. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 01:34:43 PDT 1996 Article: 56422 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!uniserve!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!math.ohio-state.edu!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: soc.culture.german,alt.revisionism,talk.politics.european-union Subject: Re: The Holocaust Cult and the EU Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:06:57 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 50 Message-ID: <4uk0uq$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <8a7cc$92915.1@news.comet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:09:14 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca soc.culture.german:82416 alt.revisionism:56422 talk.politics.european-union:5445 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 16:42:29 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <8a7cc$92915.1@news.comet.net>, georgeh@www.comet.chv.va.us >(George F. Hardy) wrote: >> In article <320B4407.5D68@gryn.org>, Alec Grynspan says: >> >> > >> >The Holocaust Museum is about that - so Gypsies get a second >> >position by numbers. >> > >> >> You have stumbled on the truth. The Holocaust Museum is not >> about Holocaust deaths, but a political agenda. >> >> GFH >I see you have a basic problem comprehending simple sentences. > >Alec said "The Holocaust Museum is about that." Meaing -- it is about the >Holocaust. > >The deaths in the Holocaust were people from many countries, >nationalities, races, sexual orientations, religious orders, etc. That is hard to tell from the USHMM website. But then you can point out the page that clearly and up front makes that point if you should like to take a try at it. >The Holocaust Museum (which I HAVE been to -- have YOU?) covers ALL these >disparate groups. Yes, it speak of the Jews. But it also speaks of the >Gypsies. The homosexuals. The Catholics. And many others. Been to the web site, done that. That is a false statement. We have been over this before. It deals mainly with Jews who think they are something special "because of what they were." >I happen to have a great deal of knowledge as to the planning and >designing of the Museum. It was never intended -- and it is NOT -- about >any political agenda. If it was not about a political agenda, why was it created according to a political agenda? The US government donated the lands and dictated its charter. It is impossible to claim it was apolitical given the facts. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 02:16:56 PDT 1996 Article: 56426 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.sgi.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: All Roads Lead to Zero Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:59:52 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4uk421$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <320b3feb.896046@news.pacificnet.net> <4uftvj$6k7@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4uhlb1$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4uiesp$5rm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:02:09 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 16:50:47 GMT, syegul@ix.netcom.com (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> But there are no bodies killed by cyanide. There are no body remains >>to account for the claimed number of dead. >And no furnaces to burn them in, either? And no ashes? I remember this >discussion taking place here before... That is correct. Every burned body is accounted for by enterance and death records. And with that no gassing is required and no impossible cremation rates are required. So what is your problem? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:46 PDT 1996 Article: 56436 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!news.u.washington.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Ashholes was Re: "Ash Gets In Your Eyes" - Giwer's New Theme Song Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 08:09:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 61 Message-ID: <4uhg8i$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4uev0i$drk@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ufhbb$cm7@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4ug0mj$nj2@atlas.uniserve.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl5-02.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 3:12:02 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 18:36:20 GMT, hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) wrote: >In <4ufhbb$cm7@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) >wrote: >[irrelevant troll reference snipped] >>> >>>On 8 Aug 1996 14:09:03 GMT, anny@ix.netcom.com(Annie Alpert) wrote: >>> >>>>In <4u9jf5$7ar@newsbf02.news.aol.com> ehrlich606@aol.com (Ehrlich606) >>>>writes: >>>>previous discussion on the amount of ash snipped >>> >>>>>>Wow. No problem to get rid of that ash at all. >>>>>> >>>> Exactly true, Mr. E: >>> >>>>ASHES >>>> What became of the ashes of the victims at Auschwitz and >>>> other extermination camps that cremated the bodies. Of >>>> course this is a disrespectful and nasty question, since it >>>> suggests that there is some deception taking place, but let's >>>> consider it anyway. >>This is where your problem begins. You believe that to ask questions >No, Ehrlich, this is where _your_ problem begins. You have no >interest in discussion of facts, rather your interest - like that of >all deniers/distorters - is simply in finding hooks to which you can >append another recycled denier "argument." >[snip ehrlichian pontifications] >>Fact: Around 1989, leading historians of the Holocaust revised downward >>their totals for Auschwitz Birkenau. Fact: Around 1990, the Polish >>government reduced the claimed death toll for AB from 4 million to about 1 >>million. Fact: The source of the 4 million number is clearly USSR-8, the >>Soviet Special Commission on Auschwitz, which based its totals on totally >>arbitrary cremation statistics for the camp. Fact: This document was >>given judicial notice at Nuremberg. >And, surprise, surprise, here it is: Yet another recycled denier >"argument". It has been presented and refuted countless times before. >So many times, in fact, that you can find a web page discussing "The >Auschwitz Gambit: The Four Million Variant": >http://www.nizkor.org/features/denial-of-science/4-million-1.html >Do tell us again, Ehrlich, about your "impressive intellect and >knowledge." Then perhaps you will address the discussion you snipped >(i.e. the substance) of Ms. Alpert's post. The "no historian" dodge again? The reason that is a safe dodge is that there are so few historians (one? two?) in the field that it is hardly of interest. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:47 PDT 1996 Article: 56437 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:30:22 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 57 Message-ID: <4ujr9n$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <320b3e5d.498224@news.pacificnet.net> <4uggos$mvb@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:32:39 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:56:32 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: ># But this way it lets them brag about the number of hits ># without having to reveal what generates them. >The material is there. It's in German, true, but the >important parts have been translated. The rest will be >translated too. As quickly as the Degesh Publication? We should live so long. Particularly when it already existed in translation for anyone who cared to look. >If you two whiny slobs are so interested in the truth, >try and get the rest translated, in the meanwhile. Some >of us have jobs ya know, and there's only a limited >time we can dedicate to this. For so one so fluent in the language it should not take as long as you are claiming. >You know very well that this material, and the Topf patent, >buries practically every claim the "revisionists" have made. >So all you can do is whine about the size of the characters >or whatever. Certainly, as did the Degesh publication which you claimed did so before I (I) posted the translation and we have found that it is contrary to holohugger claims. ># And if it is like the Degesh Publication that this same ># person refused to post for so long, >Who refused to post? This man is insane. You refused to posted the english. I did it first. Unlike you, I was completely honest and also published the "ERCO" reference. As for anyone interested in who is willing to publish anything on any side of the issue, it is me, not you. ># the reason is that that translation goes more ># against he chosen beliefs than favors them. >So post the translation. I have no idea what you're >babbling about. ># Server Error >It's working now, anyway. Score a big one for the Giwer. Nizkor >was down for an hour or two. Big news for "revisionists". You can't expect much from that piece of shit. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:48 PDT 1996 Article: 56439 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!nnrp.info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 03:16:39 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 48 Message-ID: <4ujjeu$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u8i96$sc4@news1.panix.com> <4u9h0r$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ubqq0$ndv@news1.panix.com> <4ubti0$pkf@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ueq8l$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4uh88c$jta@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 10:18:54 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2471 alt.revisionism:56439 alt.conspiracy:76768 alt.politics.white-power:38930 soc.culture.jewish:67468 talk.politics.guns:297363 talk.politics.libertarian:110528 talk.abortion:181076 alt.christnet:90590 On 10 Aug 1996 05:55:24 GMT, fische11@ix.netcom.com(some bizzare guy on the internet) wrote: >In <4ueq8l$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt >Giwer) writes: >> >> It is fascinating that you would invite people to contact your >>grandmother without providing a means to do so. >Well, you track her down (she's forced nomadic in the Midwest), then >you can try and convince her to talk to you. I've tried to talk about >it, and she has horrible flashbacks... You mean like the name who was gassed six times and lived to tell about it? >>I presume you have at >>least forwarded her name to "Spielberg's List." If not, it would be a >>good thing for you to do. >Spielberg's List?? > >> As you may know, us skeptics NEVER expect any of the raw >interviews or >>uneditted transcripts to be released. From what we have now, we know >>that the raw information is the death of the gassing stories. >> >> The raw statements are always agains the gassing stories. As you >have >>grossly overstated, all her clan did was die of disease, she saw no >>burning unless other testimony is false. >She recalls, in flashbacks and what she tells me, seeing her people >shot by Germans, starving to death, raped, and then "taken away". When >I try to figure out where, she hexes me. > >> One would hope that the US government contribution had a string >>requireing full and immediate disclosure without editting in any >>manner. It will be a revisionist treasure trove. But of course, that >>will not be a condition. Holohuggers know better than to agree to >>that sort of thing. >"Holohuggers"? Give me evidence that the Holocaust didn't exist! That is not the subject. The subject is mass extermination by gassing. Be the first provide physical evidence that the subject happened. You can make quite a name for yourself if you do. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:49 PDT 1996 Article: 56442 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!vixen.cso.uiuc.edu!newsfeed.internetmci.com!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:52:46 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 21 Message-ID: <4uk757$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u8i96$sc4@news1.panix.com> <4u9h0r$29s@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4ubqq0$ndv@news1.panix.com> <4ubti0$pkf@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ueq8l$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4uh88c$jta@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4ujjeu$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:55:03 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2472 alt.revisionism:56442 alt.conspiracy:76770 alt.politics.white-power:38932 soc.culture.jewish:67470 talk.politics.guns:297371 talk.politics.libertarian:110533 talk.abortion:181077 alt.christnet:90593 On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 01:25:34 -0700, mschnei1@isd.net wrote: >In article <4ujjeu$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >"Holohuggers"? Give me evidence that the Holocaust didn't exist! >> >> That is not the subject. The subject is mass extermination by >> gassing. Be the first provide physical evidence that the subject >> happened. You can make quite a name for yourself if you do. >That's rather tough. The worms have eaten the bodies by now. Where have you been? They were all cremated and thus the remains were preserved for all eternity or at least for a thousand years in their size. But even with worms the bones would still be there. It is only 50 years. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:50 PDT 1996 Article: 56444 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!netaxs.com!hunter.premier.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in2.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:08:38 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 25 Message-ID: <4uh954$cn9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u2gvo$ss@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <4uehl5$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4uesoq$lfe@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl2-20.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:10:44 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Aug 1996 08:27:06 GMT, s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan Schneider) wrote: >In article <4uehl5$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt >Giwer) wrote: >>And it is the umpteenth time (for those of you in Canada, that means >>many times) you have failed to note that "the greater part" is a >>technical term in German referring to exponential decrease. >I'm astonished to see Mr. Giwer knowing aspects of the german language >that hid from me for over thirty years. >Wenn Sie behaupten, dass es im Deutschen so etwas wie einen speziellen >technischen Ausdruck gaebe, der der 'groessere Teil' heisst und der >Meinung sind, dass dieser Ausdruck generell bedeutet, dass man bezug auf >irgendeinen Prozess einer exponentiellen Abnahme nimmt, dann sind Sie >furchtbar schief gewickelt. >Know what I mean? >-- > *s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de* You degree is in what? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:51 PDT 1996 Article: 56450 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power Subject: Re: Why the Nazis perpetrated the Holocaust (was Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:24:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 37 Message-ID: <4ujnet$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ufnau$k2c@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4ugj3n$emn@Networking.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:27:09 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2474 alt.revisionism:56450 alt.conspiracy:76784 alt.politics.white-power:38936 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 01:19:35 GMT, jabowery@netcom.com (Jim Bowery) wrote: >Rich Graves (rich@c2.org) wrote: >: Charles R.L. Power put it succinctly in article : >: Having been indoctrinated with antisemitic propaganda for hundreds of >: years, German society of the '30s and '40s >1) What caused all this antisemitic propaganda? >2) Are you saying that most of the other expulsions and persecutions of >Jews in Europe throughout history prior to the 1930's and 1940's were not >the result of such indoctrination? >3) You say "hundreds of years" of propaganda were required to motivate the >antisemitic outburst in Germany in this century. If your answer to 2 is >"no" then how much time must a people be subjected to antisemitic propaganda >before they act on it? >4) If the Ashkenazi were so persecuted throughout European history why >didn't they just take up residence in the lands occupied by their >Sephardim kinsmen who were not as persecuted? >5) How did the persecuted Ashkenazi population grow to dwarf the less >persecuted Sephardim population? Good points but one would hardly think they are not obvious to everyone. Centuries of the same thing and worse (subhuman or in league with the devil, sacrificing christian children, whatever, which is worse?) but suddenly it shows up under circumstances where deaths from diseases were so rampant that it is difficult to explain how enough survived to be gassed. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:51 PDT 1996 Article: 56455 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Holocaust revisionism Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:37:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 116 Message-ID: <4ujh5o$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4i63p3$l5@axl02it.ntc.nokia.com> <4tajct$ljp@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4tf96j$510@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <3209079f.530021274@news.zilker.net> <4ueo8d$lf3@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <320c849d.527268@news.inetport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 9:39:52 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:27:57 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On Wed, 07 Aug 1996 21:18:18 GMT, mike@aimetering.com (Mike Curtis) >>wrote: >> >>>mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> >>>>On Sat, 27 Jul 1996 23:55:12 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >>>> >>>>>[Followup = alt.revisionism] >>>> >>>>>olk@login.dknet.dk (Ole Kreiberg) writes: >>>> >>>>># Why did the nazis chose Zyklon B for the killing of >>>>># humans in the concentration camps? >>>> >>>>>Because it was simple and cheap. Two very good reasons. >>>> >>>>># Why didn't they chose sodium-cyanid crystals poured >>>>># down in sulphuric acid like they have done in execution >>>>># gaschambers in the USA since the twenties and still do >>>>># today? >>>> >>>>>Why bother? There was plenty of Zyklon-B around, and simply >>>>>throwing it into the chambers, via the openings, was good enough. >>>> >>>>>Why bother with a more complicated procedure? >>>> >>>>># In this case they could have saved themselves all the >>>>># trouble of inventing fancyfull "wiremesh columns". >>>> >>>>>Are you quoting Giwer's rubbish now? >>>> >>>>>The wiremesh columns were a very simple, very cheap thing >>>>>to build. >>>> >>>> It appears you are not knowledgeable enough to deal with the sulphuric acid >>>>claim. I warned the wrong person it seems. >>>> >> >>>Rather than be personal in your unfounded attack above, I suggest you >>>explain to Danny WHY wiremesh columns wouldn't be a very simple, very >>>cheap thing to build. You will, of course, substantiate your claims, >>>will you not? >> >> Those claims, including their very existance, are up to little boy >>Danny to establish. >You claim to be a "revisionist." So, since the majority of the >historical record that concerns these columns discusses perferated >metal or mesh, I believe, You believe in error. Not books written by nonhistorians but the gosh awful for real eyewitness testimony itself. it is up to you to provide documentation >that proves that accepted history is wrong. That's the job of true >historical revisionists. Dany has established his points more times >than I can count. I have seen the drawing he proposes was one of them on Nizkor. That is what resulted in my slapstick film scene where they are lowered in and then push right back out. Perhaps Charlie Chaplin as the SS man. It was then he invented a way to mounted it to the floor which is not on the drawing, in other words, it is only in his imagination. Tben someone else came in and tried to pretend that dynamite would destroy the floor side fasteners but could not explain the lack of mounting points on the drawing. And then Danny-boy went to calling "nazi-boy" for lack of coherency in his fabrication. >> I simply point out the nonsense of his >>assertions. >Really? How does calling him "little boy Danny" do this? Danny? vice Dan or Daniel? It is the dimunitive form you realize. >This quote from you: "It appears you are not knowledgeable enough to >deal with the sulphuric acid claim. I warned the wrong person it >seems" has what to do with the construction of the columns? You will note his answer is "why bother?" That makes it clear he has to idea of the properties of what he is talking about yet pretends to talk about it. His entire knowledge appears to be based upon his faith in eyewitnesses. >You seem to be the evasive one in this thread. How come? It is not a matter of evasion, if you read everything you have quoted. You will also note he dismisses the use of sulphuric acid as ZB was common and plentiful. Battery acid was also common. >> And tbey are very nonsensical and very little boy like. >Wow! That quite a challenge to the construction of the pillars. I >don't think too many folks are impressed. What they are impressed with >is how you continue to evade and attack people personally. The story on the construction of the pillars has changed so many times that there is nothing left to challenge. If any one thing is said another version of the construction is brought up. One of these days the holohuggers may wake up and realize that all of their conflicting constructions can not be true at the same time. It is strange that all holohuggers know they existed but at the same time can not agree upon just what existed. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:52 PDT 1996 Article: 56457 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish Subject: Re: Holocaust Lies Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:10:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4ujmk3$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ub4qi$apk@shiva.usa.net> <4ueq9b$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4uf057$it1@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:12:51 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2476 alt.revisionism:56457 alt.conspiracy:76788 alt.politics.white-power:38938 soc.culture.jewish:67477 On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:03:47 -0400, Konrad Vandegaer wrote: >On Fri, 9 Aug 1996, Andy Walton wrote: >> I can only assume thatthis is a work of satire, demanding the same level >> of "proof" for Dresden that deniers demand for the Holocaust. As satire, >> it may be a bit too subtle. > As satire it's right on. For the deniers though, the problem is that > they're a bit too dense to recognize satire e.g. Pissed Youth. You too appear to miss the point. No one cares in the least if someone does not accept the Dresden story. So why the difference with people not accepting the gassing story? What difference does it make? Answer: None whatsoever. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:53 PDT 1996 Article: 56458 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!noc.van.hookup.net!news.jumppoint.com!n2van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!unixg.ubc.ca!info.ucla.edu!agate!howland.erols.net!cs.utexas.edu!swrinde!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism,alt.conspiracy,alt.politics.white-power,soc.culture.jewish,talk.politics.guns,talk.politics.libertarian,talk.abortion,alt.christnet Subject: Re: Holocaust Lies Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:12:21 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 16 Message-ID: <4ujmnd$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <070700Z28071996@anon.penet.fi> <31fcca2e.1495388@news.pacificnet.net> <4tmo4e$sii@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tngc2$ilv@news1.panix.com> <4tpqje$d5t@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4tqbj8$erh@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4u0dp0$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4u4cnu$up8@cnn.cc.biu.ac.il> <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ub4qi$apk@shiva.usa.net> <4ueq9b$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4uf057$it1@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <4uh6jj$3bg@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:14:37 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2477 alt.revisionism:56458 alt.conspiracy:76790 alt.politics.white-power:38940 soc.culture.jewish:67478 talk.politics.guns:297380 talk.politics.libertarian:110542 talk.abortion:181083 alt.christnet:90601 On 10 Aug 1996 05:27:15 GMT, fische11@ix.netcom.com(some bizzare guy on the internet) wrote: >We did firestorm Berlin, guys. It worked better in Japan, with all the >rice and huts of the time. There it killed more people than both >A-bombs combined. But the holohuggers will refuse to look at the burned cities and other physical evidence and insist that the eyewitnesses not report anything contradictory. They are quite disturbed by their lack of physical evidence. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 07:34:54 PDT 1996 Article: 56467 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!hecate.umd.edu!mojo.eng.umd.edu!bloom-beacon.mit.edu!eru.mt.luth.se!news.kth.se!nntp.uio.no!Norway.EU.net!EU.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: 'We are German citizens! You can't do this to us!' Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:20:36 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 156 Message-ID: <4uk58v$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:22:55 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 04:08:16 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >Philip Mueller writes about the murder of the Gypsies in Birkenau >[Quoted from "Auschwitz Inferno", p. 151] >----------------------------------------------------------------- >One could see that most of the SS-men had a bad conscience. They >hadn't shown any scruples about annihilating Jews, the killing >of whom was now a daily routine for all of them, yet they clearly >found it unpleasant and distressing to help exterminate people >with whom they had been on quite good terms up to now. But in >this dismal place there was no room for sentiment. The >extermination routine took its usual course. [Hauptscharfuehrer] >Moll and his helpers cocked their pistols and rifles and, in a >way that allowed no misunderstanding, asked the people, who >in the meanwhile had undressed, to leave the changing room at >once and go into those rooms in which they were to be gassed. >As they took their last walk, many wept in despair, others >crossed themselves and prayed to God, and yet others, who even >now were unwilling to come to terms with their inevitable fate, >turned to the SS-men and, gesticulating wildly, shouted without >stopping: "We are German citizens! You can't do this to us!". >For a while desperate shouts and cries could be heard coming from >the gas chambers until the gas had done its deadly work and chocked >the last voice. > >-Danny Keren. >-- >Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood. >-Lu Xun. The numbr of the vanished
The number of the vanished

      The problem is that every person recorded to have been sent to a camp is accounted for to the limits of record keeping errors. Many died of disease, accident, old age and all the rest but none are recorded to have died of gassing. And, given the end when the system broke down and starvation took over and record keeping was not possible, the numbers are still about right.
      To assign people to death from gassing in these camps it is necessary to arbitrarily and without justification assign some 2.5 to 3 million people from the untraceable category to the camps category without any claim of tracing them. It is a completely capricious procedure.
      Thus they have to claim that they can divine from departure and arrival figures of people who were shipped by train, the number that disappeared and that they were gassed. This is quite an interesting claim but as they have a preconceived conclusion, anyting will support it.
      But there are alternate explanations. For example, the time of greatest gassing at Auschwitz is cited to be in the summer of 1944. That is because the greatest number of departures but no recorded arrivals occurred at that time.
      On face value, that would appear damning. But something is being overlooked. That is that the allies were destroying anything and everything that moved because they had air superiority and trains with civilians were no exception. It might have been nice to make an exception but there was no way to tell from the air.
      That only covers the end of the war. The earlier phase of disappearances was in 1941. That was when Russia was permitting people to escape through the lines to refuge in Russia. Almost.
      Russia did a little bit of filtering in the refuge matter. Anyone, man or woman, who was capable of handling a rifle was given one, turned around and pointed towards the advancing Germans. This was a useless gesture at that time in the war. They died on the battlefield. If their names were even recorded, they are still hidden some place in the Russian archives.
      These two sources of the vanished 31 million do not account for a larger and nonrepresentative fraction of Jews that disappeared. For that there are several possibilities. I am not claiming these are explanations but rather that they did occur and need to be considered cumulatively.
      First, Jews had a reason to run from the Germans due to the known internment in concentration camp policy. Thus they would be most likely to run into the hands of the Russians, be given a rifle and turned around to face the Panzer Divisions.
      Second, those that did not run often put their children in orphanages (run by Christians just like the Nazis) and their children were reported, raised and such as Christian, not Jewish and never reappeared on the roles of Jewish population.
      Third, given the Russian policy, women with children were not suitable to be given a rifle they continue into Russia. Did they return? Did they marry? Convert?
      In line with the third, did Russia every keep records by religion or ethinicity? Why would an atheist society that did not officially believe in Mendelevian genetics do so? Jews would vanish without a trace into such a society just like Jewish immigrants vanish without a trace into the US as the US does not keep records by religion. Like it or not, Silberstein and Demjanjuk are identical save for country of origin in the US.
      Fourth, how many Jews vanished into the United States? The US keeps no records by religion on immigrants. So how many vanished into the US?
      Although Latin America appears to get a lot of credit for harboring ex-Nazis, in fact the countries have large German communities, not Christian-German, German. How many Jews "vanished" to Latin America?
      But this begs the question of where the 31 million went. Russia does not have the slighest idea where 15 million of its people went. The Jewish "losses" pale in comparison but are at the same time quite explainable.
      And given the easily explainable reasons for "transported but did not arrive" it is clear that the allies, even at this late date and in the interests of accuracy, do not want to admit what clearly happened. Early in the war, the Russians used the escaped as cannon fodder against the Germans and towards the end all the Allies were destroying people in the transport trains.
      It is much easier to leave it all to the "evil Nazis" than to resurrect the matter this generation. It will take at least another twenty years to face this one directly. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:33 PDT 1996 Article: 56486 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 03:04:17 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4ujino$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <838484554snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <4tg59k$qfk@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <320a0c85.596821190@news.zilker.net> <839676404snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 10:06:32 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 96 11:26:44 GMT, Alexander Baron wrote: >In article dkeren@world.std.com "Daniel Keren" writes: >> These people didn't die because Kramer locked himself in >> the bread store, or because the water pump broke down, or >> because of any other "reason" our desperate Nazi apologists >> are trying to peddle. They died because the Nazis considered >> them to be "sub-humans". The people who continue to make >> lame excuses and lie about their death, are probably in >> agreement with the Nazis; there is no other clear reason >> to explain what they are doing. >And as I have consistently denounced the Protocols of Zion as a fake I >am probably in agreement with Organised Jewry. Ther is no other clear >reason to explain what I am doing. You do realize you could avoid many of the claims against you by saying they are disorganized. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:33 PDT 1996 Article: 56487 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nizkor: promoter of lies Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:30:58 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 23 Message-ID: <4ujnqb$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4uhdp9$7hq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4ui78k$bk5@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:33:15 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 10 Aug 1996 14:44:36 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: > >> And now we have an "attorney" who is going to make a call about my >> response to a request for my daughter's address. You may remember >> enough about our conversations to get a chuckle out of that one. You >> do remember my daughter, don't you? > Your response was a death threat. Only to an ignorant idiot. Think about it. It was not. There is a very simple explanation as to why it was not. Even an attorney of your stature should be able to figure it out. Or Alec may remember enough to give you a hint. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:34 PDT 1996 Article: 56488 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G. Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:36:13 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 28 Message-ID: <4ujo45$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <32042ADD.51A2@infinop.com> <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32075137.6FD4@gryn.org> <4u9erm$1rb@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <320A6041.1F3C@unb.ca> <4uf2tr$l8c@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <320B9A9E.540E@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:38:29 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 16:07:58 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> You blew it badly lying about the fluid flow rates on the banks and >> bottoms of rivers. >Congratulations on losing again, Matt. >The math shows you to be wrong. >Either show your "corrections" properly or accept that you blew it >again. >The best that you can do is dump a useless and totally incorrect web >page of your own into the middle of a post. Fine with me. You insist that fluid flow near boundaries is the same as near the center of the channel. You know better but you claim this false claim is true. As I have said, holohuggers will lie to promote their version of the holocaust. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:35 PDT 1996 Article: 56490 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Photographs from BELSEN Camp Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 03:08:32 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 26 Message-ID: <4ujivn$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <838484554snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> <839676404snz@abaron.demon.co.uk> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 10:10:47 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 21:27:30 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >Alexander Baron writes: ># And as I have consistently denounced the Protocols of ># Zion as a fake I am probably in agreement with Organised ># Jewry. Ther is no other clear reason to explain what I ># am doing. >Very good. Now explain why the death rate in the "work camps" >was 10 percent per month during, for example, July, August, >and September 1942, long before the Allies have supposedly >destroyed Germany's infrastructure and caused all these >people to die in 1945. If you have an actual, recorded death rate in the camps for that time frame then you are working from a list of recorded admissions and recorded deaths. Thus no explanation is necessary as they records of the cause of death exist. Since you have read everything there is on this here holocaust, what do the records give as the cause of death? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:35 PDT 1996 Article: 56491 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.total.net!rcogate.rco.qc.ca!n2ott.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!van.istar!west.istar!n1van.istar!van-bc!uniserve!news.sol.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!howland.reston.ans.net!newsfeed.internetmci.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: none but the polarized Date: Fri, 09 Aug 1996 09:49:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 7 Message-ID: <4uf1mo$2o9@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl6-18.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Fri Aug 09 2:51:20 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 That is all who are here publically. They will never change. This NG is for the lurkers. Of what value to claim a post is irrational when a lurker can read it and find it rational? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:37 PDT 1996 Article: 56493 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Death in Mauthausen Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:17:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 788 Message-ID: <4uk53d$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:19:57 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 22:36:19 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >Affidavit of SS member Alois Hoellriegl, a guard in Mauthausen >[Quoted in "Nazi Conspiracy and Aggression" - Washington, U.S Govt. >Print. Off., 1946, Vol. VIII, p. 630] >------------------------------------------------------------------ >Executions were carried out almost daily at Mauthausen. In the >years preceding 1942 they were carried out by firing squads and >the bodies were burned in the camp incinerator which operated >almost daily. SS-guards made up the firing squads and were detailed >for the work in a routine manner the same as for other work details. >Victims executed by a firing squad were always shot singly by six >men using rifles. The number of executions varied daily. Sometimes >they included persons brought by the Gestapo who were executed >immediately. >In 1942 a gas chamber resembling a shower room was built next to >the incinerator. Gas executions were carried out in the gas chamber >approximately three times a week and the bodies were burned in the >adjoining incinerator. From my guard post I could hear the sound of >the victims pounding on the door when the gas was turned on. > >Testimony of Albert Tiefenbacher, political prisoner in Mauthausen >[Quoted in "Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the >International Military Tribunal", Vol. XXXIII, p. 226] >-------------------------------------------------------------- >Q. Did you hear Kaltenbrunner say anything to Ziereis? >A. No, I was never so close to him. The carriers of the dead had to > disappear when visitors were there, only the two firemen were > allowed to stay in the crematorium. >Q. Do you remember Wolfram? >A. He was a medic. >Q. What do you know about him? >A. Wolfram gave many of the deadly injections to people. >Q. Do you remember Eckermann? >A. I know a block-leader Ecker. >Q. Do you remember the gas chamber camouflaged as a bath house? >A. Yes, we always helped to carry the dead from the gas chamber. > >Testimony of Johann Kanduth, political prisoner in Mauthausen >[Quoted in "Trial of the Major War Criminals Before the >International Military Tribunal", Vol. XXXIII] >------------------------------------------------------------------ >p. 232: >Q. Describe your work. >A. At first my occupation consisted of removing the bodies, then > I served the heating and had to learn to put in the corpses, > then I had to stir up and take out the ashes. This was my occupation > during 4.5 years. > . > . > . >p. 233: >Q. What kinds of execution preceded your cremation? >A. They were shot in the back of the neck. There were also women. > Some were killed in the gas chamber. Other were killed by > springes of gasoline or Efamedem, which were given by a certain > Klein Guenther. > . > . > . >p. 242: >Q. Do you remember the executions of the English and American > military personnel in the year 1945? >A. Yes. >Q. Tell us something about it. >A. The staff went downstairs, Ziereis, Bachmaier, Streitwieser, > Niedermayer led them. I do not remember if Altfuldich was > present too. Ohrenstein must know it. Schulz was always > present. Proksch and Rommel led them up from the bunker. >Q. Were you employed at the moment of the execution? >A. No. >Q. Do you know who was employed? >A. Ohrenstein, the only survivor. I came later. Hauptscharfuehrer > Roth fetched me when the execution was over. The 14 bodies of > the Americans lay separately. >-- >Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood. >-Lu Xun. Nizkor FTP file: camps/maidanek/maidanek.004 Archive/File: camps/maidanek maidanek.004 Last-Modified: 1994/10/31 In doing research on the Majdanek concentration camp I came across a reference to a document written by the committee of inquiry which was set up by the Soviets and Poles after the liberation of the Majdanek concentration camp to investigate German crimes at the camp. This is especially important considering that since Majdanek was one of the first camps to be liberated, it was captured relatively intact because the Germans did not have enough time to destroy it or cover up all their crimes. I tracked down only two copies of this document in English in the whole country(there are versions in Russian, Polish and French also), the one of which I used being at the Hoover War Library at Stanford University. Once I received a copy I decided it would be worth it to enter it into my computer, and once I started I decided to make it available to other researchers. I scanned in the text and corrected the mistakes made by the OCR software which was not so accurate because of the poor quality of the photocopy and of the original printing. This will hopefully be the first in a series of documents which I will be making available electronically. I am making this available through e-mail by request, in the various Holocaust archives, and in the original Macintosh document by request. If I ever get my WWW home page set up, it'll be available there too. If you have any questions about this text please feel free to e-mail me at philip@cs.brandeis.edu (which should be active at least through 1997). Feel free to distribute this but please make sure not to edit or change the text and to leave my intro in place. Thank you. Philip Trauring Format notes: I have tried as best I could to retain the format of the printed document. The original has pages which are about 4 inches wide and 6 inches tall. I separated the pages by dotted lines with the page number on the line preceding the page which it designates. I also, whenever possible, used accent marks and curly quotes to keep it exactly as I saw it on the page -- this means that if you received this document over e-mail without MIME encoding that you will see some strange characters in the middle of the document -- if your mail reader has MIME capabilities then I beleive everying should look okay. The version of this which is available as a Macintosh document also uses different sized type, bold text and centered text to make it match the styles and such from the original. ------------------------------------------------------------------ [Archival note: I have reformatted this document for the archives. The changes are solely in format; i.e. paragraphs now contain spaces between them, and the right margin has been reset to 70 from 75. Mr. Trauring's original format has been preserved in maidanek.005. knm] COMMUNIQUE OF THE POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY COMMISSION FOR INVESTIGATING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN FOREIGN LANGAUGES PUBLISHING HOUSE MOSCOW 1944 ------------------------------------------------------------------ CONTENTS page Preamble ...........................................1 I. The Majdanek Extermination Camp in Lublin........2 II. The Categories of Prisoners in the Camp.........3 III. The Tortures and Bloody Reprisals Practised in the Extermination Camp...................5 IV. The Wholesale Shooting of Prisoners of War and Civilians in the Camp...................9 V. Asphyxiation by Gas.............................13 VI. The German Butchers Tried to Cover up the Traces of their Heinous Crimes.............18 VII. The Hitlerites Robbed the Prisoners in the Camp of their Valuables and Belongings.....22 Printed in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics ------------------------------------------------------------pg 01-- COMMUNIQUE OF THE POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY COMMISSION FOR INVESTIGATING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN The Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission for Investigating the Crimes Committed by the Germans in Lublin, consisting of Mr. A. Witos, Vice-Chairman of the Polish Committee of National Liberation (Chairman of the Commission); the Rev. Dr. Kruszynski, Dean of the Lublin Catholic Cathedral; Dr. Somerstein, member of the Polish Committee of National Liberation; Mr. Christians, Barrister, President of the Lublin Red Cross Society; Professor Bialkowski of the Lublin Catholic University; Professor Poplawski of the Lublin University; Mr. Balcerzak, Procurator of the Lublin Appeal Court and Mr. Szczepanski, Preeident of the Lublin Circuit Court (representing Poland); and D. I. Kudryavtsev (Vice-Chairman of the Commission), Professor V. I. Prozorovsky and Professor N. I. Graschenkov, (representing the U.S.S.R.), investigated the crimes committed in Lublin. In the territory of Poland the Hitlerites set up an extensive network of concentration camps: in Lublin, Demblin, Oswiencim, Cholm, Sobibor, Biala Podlaska, Treblinka and other places. To these camps they transported for extermination hundreds of thousands of people from the occupied countries of Europe-France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Greece, Denmark, Norway and others. In these camps the criminal Hitler government organized the massacre of whole sections of the population whom they regarded as undesirable, primarily the intellectuals of the ------------------------------------------------------------pg 02-- occupied countries of Europe, Soviet and Polish prisoners of war, and Jews. The facts discovered by the Commission in its investigation of the crimes committed by the Germans in Lublin far exceed in brutality and barbarity the monstrous crimes committed by the German fascist invaders of which international public opinion is already aware. I. THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN In Majdanek, Lublin, the Hitlerite butchers built a vast slaughter house, which they themselves called 'Vernichtungslager,' i.e., 'Extermination Camp.' The following two Germans, now prisoners of war, who served in this camp, testified: Rottenfuhrer SS Theodor Schollen: "This camp was called 'Vernichtungslager,' i.e 'Extermination Camp'-precisely because a colossal number of people were exterminated here." Kampfpolizist Heinz Stalbe: "The main purpose of this camp was to exterminate the largest possible number of people. That is why it was called 'Vernichtungslager' i.e., 'Extermination Camp.'" The-Majdanek Camp, situated two kilometres from Lublin, occupies an area of two hundred and seventy hectares. Its erection was commenced at the end of 1940. In the beginning of 1943 six fields of the camp were completed. In every field there were twenty-four barracks, making one hundred and forty-four barracks in all (not counting other buildings used as warehouses, workshops, etc.), each accommodating three hundred persons and over. The camp was surrounded by two rows of barbed wire. Furthermore, within the camp all the six fields were divided off by a whole network of barbed wire fences with a guard room at the entrance to each field. The barbed wire fences around these fields were charged with a high voltage electric current. All over the camp tall watch towers were erected in ------------------------------------------------------------pg 03-- which sentries armed with machine guns were constantly posted. The camp was strongly guarded by SS troops. In addition there were two hundred German police dogs, which played an important part in guarding the camp, and an auxiliary force of police called Kampfpolizei, which consisted of criminal elements. II. THE CATEGORIES OF PRISONERS IN THE CAMP The camp was capable of accommodating from twenty five to forty thousand prisoners at a time. At some periods as many as forty five thousand prisoners were confined there. The categories of prisoners confined in the camp varied at different times. The prisoners were systematically exterminated and fresh transports of prisoners arrived to take their place, so that for the overwhelming majority of persons sent here the camp was only a stage on the road to death. The camp contained prisoners of war of the former Polish army captured as far back 1939, Soviet prisoners of war, and civilians from Poland, France, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Yugoslavia, Denmark, Norway and other countries. This is established by: a) the discovery within the precincts of the camp of a large number of passports and other documents belonging to citizens of different countries of Europe who perished in this camp. For example: the passport of U.S.S.R. citizens Maria Timofeyovna Goryunova, Nikolui Frantsevich Mazurkevich, and others; documents belonging to Polish citizens Czeslaw Siedlecki, Wladyslaw Soniczny, Stanislaw Jankiewicz and others; documents belonging to French citizens Gabriel Labrouge, Emile Moltagne, Lucien Roi, Auguste Chirol, Andre Prinson, and others; documents belonging to Czechoslovak citizens Josef Hluce, Rudolf Feldinger and others; documents belonging to Italian citizens Gustav Muole, Guiseppe Music, Pio Tinozi, and others; documents belong- ------------------------------------------------------------pg 04-- ing to the Netherlands citizens Berthus van der Palm, Andertinus van der Irimi, Petrus Jansen and others; documents belonging to Yugoslav citizens Stjepan Stepanovic, Rano Zunic and others; documents belonging to Belgian citizens Leon Bazeo, Theophil van Hauseran, and others; documents belonging to Greek citizens Ean Zurene, and others, and also documents belonging to people of other nationalities; b) the register of deaths in the so-called "Lager-Lazarett," but actually the register of those exterminated, in which the names of a considerable number of dead persons of different nationalities are recorded. In March 1944 alone, of one thousand six hundred and fifty-four prisoners who died, six hundred and fifteen were Russians, two hundred and forty-seven Poles, one hundred and eight French, seventy-four Yugoslavs, whiIe the rest belonged to other nationalities inhabiting the countries of Western Europe; c) the evidence of a number of witnesses: former German prisoners of the camp aud prisoners of war who had served in the camp, and also the evidence of former prisoners in the camp: Le-du Corantin, a Frenchman; Tomasek, a Czech; Benen, a Netherlander, and others. The list of prisoners exterminated in the camp was constantly augmented by the names of Soviet prisoners of war, sections of the population of occupied countries of Europe, different sections of the population captured by the Gestapo in the streets, railway stations and in houses during the systemic raids and searches constantly carried out by the Hitlerites in Poland and other countries of Europe, and also by the names of Jews brought here from the ghettoes set up by the Gestapo in Poland and different towns in Western Europe. Among the prisoners there were numerous women, children and aged persons. Sometimes whole families were confined in the camp. The children were of different ages, including infants. Thus, the camp was a place for the wholesale extermination of different nationalities of Europe. ------------------------------------------------------------pg 05-- III. THE TORTURES AND BLOODY REPRISALS PRACTISED IN THE EXTERMINATION CAMP The regime in the "Extermination Camp" served the object of accomplishing tho wholesale extermination of the prisoners. The prisoners dragged out a miserable existence of starvation. The ordinary daily ration of a prisoner consisted of one issue per day of coffee made of roasted turnips, two issues per day of soup made of grass, and from one hundred and eighty to two hundred and seventy grams of bread, half adulterated with sawdust or chestnut flour. This led to the complete exhaustion of the prisoners, to the spread of tuberculosis amd other diseases and the wholesale dying out of the prisoners. For the slightest "offence" the prisoners were deprived of even this meagre food for several days at a stretch, which practically doomed them to death from starvation. Tomasek, a Czech and a former prisoner of the camp, stated before the Commission: "The people starved all the time. The wholesale exhaustion of the prisoners and death from exbaustion were observed. The prisoners ate offal, cats and dogs. Most of the prisoners looked like walking skeletons covered with skin, or were unaturally bloated due to swelling resulting from starvation." Corporal Reznik of the Polish Army and former prisoner of the camp stated: "I noticed that the Russian prisoners of war were hardly fed at all. They were reduced to an extreme state of exhaustion. Their bodies swelled, and they were not even able to talk. They died in large numbers." Starvation was one of the important elements of the general system of extermination that prevailed in the camp. The working day started at 4 a.m. The Germans burst into the barracks and roused the people with whips. The roll was called, at which all, sound and sick alike, had to be present. Those who had died in the night had to be taken out to the ------------------------------------------------------------pg 06-- barrack square by those who had slept next to them to be checked. The roll-call lasted two hours and more, and was accompanied by the beating and tormenting of the prisoners. If a prisoner swooned and was unable to answer when his name was called, he was registered as dead and killed with clubs. At 6 a.m. the prisoners were taken out to work. The work was exceptionally heavy and exhausting. It was accompanied by severe beating, torment and murder. The gangs of prisoners returning for their so-called dinner at 11 a.m., carried with them their fellow-prisoners who had been beaten, mutilated or killed. During the evening roll-call the SS men on duty read the names of those prisoners who had worked "badly," and these were tied to a form and flogged with whips, rods or birches. The number of strokes inflicted ranged from twenty five and over. Often, prisoners were flogged to death. Zelent, Docent of the Warsaw University, formerly a prisoner of the camp, stated: "I knew Barrister Nosek, from Radom, who was given one hundred strokes, from which he died three days later." In the case of intellectuals and prominent persons among the prisoners, particularly refined methods of torture were adopted. The Germans compelled Professor Michalowicz, age seventy-two, the famous expert on infantile diseases, Professor Pomirowski, age sixty, of the Warsaw Politechnical Institute, Wazowicz, age seventy-five, a member of the Polish Supreme Court, and many others, to perform the most arduous work, and tormented them in every possible way. Tadeusz Budzyn, M. Sc. Chem., a Pole, and formerly a prisoner at the camp stated: "The Germans compelled a large group of professors, physicians, engineers and other specialists, numbering one thousand two hundred in all, who came from Greece, to carry heavy stones from one place to another, a task which was far beyond their strength. The scientists who dropped from exhaustion as a result of this heavy labour were beaten ------------------------------------------------------------pg 07-- to death by thc SS men. Owing to the system of starvation, exhausting labour, beating and murder, the entire group of Greek scientists was exterminated in the course of five weeks." The methods of torturing and tormenting prisoners varied to an extraordiuary degree. Many of them bore the character of alleged "jokes," which very often ended in the death of the prisoners upon whom they were played. Among these may be cited the mock shooting of a prisoner while simultaneously stunning him by a blow on the head with a plank or other blunt instrument, and the mock drowning of prisoners in the pool at the camp, which often ended in the actual drowning of the victims. Among the German butchers in the camp some specialized in particular methods of torture and murder. They killed their victims by striking them with a club across the back of the neck, kicking them in the stomach or in the groin, etc, The SS torturers drowned their victims in the filthy water that flowed from the bathhouse into a shallow ditch. The victim's head was forced into this filthy water and kept there with the jackboot of the SS man until he expired. The favourite method of the Hitlerite SS men was to hang their victims by their arms, which were tied behind their backs. Le-du Corantin, a Frenchman, who had suffered this form of punishment, stated that when thus suspended the victim soon lost consciousness. When that happencd the victim was lowered, but was hung up again as soon us he recovered consciousness. This was repeatcd over and over again. For the slightest offence, especially on suspicion of attempting to escape, the German fiends hanged prisoners in the camp. In the middle of every field there was a post with a cross-tree fixed to it about two metres high on which people were hanged. "From my barrack," said the witness Domashev, a Soviet prisoner of war who was confined in this camp, "I saw people hanged on this post in the middle of the field." ------------------------------------------------------------pg 08-- Near the laundry, in the space between fields No. 1 and No. 2, there was a special barrack with beams stretching from one end to another, from which people were hanged in whole groups. Female prisoners in the camp were subjected to no less torment and torture: the same methods of roll-call, exhausting labour, beating and torment. The chief woman overseer Erich, of the SS, and the women overseers Braunstein, Anni Devid, Weber, Knobliek, Ellert and Redli, were distinguished for their cruelty. The commission has established numerous cases of absolutely unprecedented cruelties on the part of the German fiends in the camp. At a plenary session of the Commission, the German Kampfpolizist, Heinz Stalbe stated that he saw the chief of the crematorium, Oberscharfuhrer Munsfeld, tie a Polish womam hand and foot and throw her alive into the furnace. Witnesses Jelinski and Olech, who were employed in the camp, also testified to the burning of people alive in the crematorium furnaces.."A child was torn from a mother's breast and before her eyes was dashed against the wall of the barrack and killed," stated the witness Atrokhov. The witness Edward Baran stated: "I myself saw little children torn away from their mothers and killed before their eyes: the child was held by one leg, the other was kept down by the foot and the child was thus torn in two." The Deputy Chief of the camp, Obersturmfuhrer SS, Tumann, was notorious for his exceptional sadism. He forced groups of prisoners to stand in a row on thier knees and killed them by striking them on the head with a club; he set police dogs on the prisoners; he took a most active part in all the punishments and killing of prisoners. Thus, starvation, exhausting labour, torment, torture and murder, accompanied by unprecedented sadism, were resorted to in the wholesale slaughter of prisoners in this camp. ------------------------------------------------------------pg 09-- IV. THE WHOLESALE SHOOTING OF PRISONERS OF WAR AND CIVILIANS IN THE CAMP The wholesale extermination of the civilian population of European countries, including Poland and the occupied regions of the U.S.S.R., was the deliberate policy of Hitler Germany, which logically followed >from her plan to enslave and exterminate the progressive and active part of the Slavonic peoples. The erection in enslaved Poland of camps for the wholesale extermination of European peoples and prisoners of war was prompted by the desire of the Hitlerite ruling clique to cover up and conceal their crimes in every possible way. These camps, including the Majdanek "Extermination Camp," were also places for the complete extermination of tho Jewish population. One of the methods of exterminating vast masses of people whom Hitler Germany regarded as undesirable was wholesale shooting, which was extensively practised in the Lublin "Extermination Camp." The bloody history of this camp commences with the wholesale shooting of Soviet prisoners of war, which the SS men carried out in November-December 1941. Of a contingent of over two thousand Soviet prisoners of war, only eighty survived; all the rest were shot, except for a small group who were tortured to death. In the period from January to April 1942 fresh contingents of Soviet prisoners of war arrived in the canmp and were shot. Jan Niedzialek, a Pole, a hired waggon driver at the camp, stated: "In the winter of 1942 the Germans exterminated about five thousand Russian prisoners of war in the following way: the prisoners were carted in motor trucks from their barracks to pits in the old quarry and there they were shot." Prisoners of war of the former Polish army, captured as far back as 1939 and confined in different camps in Germany ------------------------------------------------------------pg 10-- were already in 1940 collected iu the camp in Lipovaya Street in Lublin and soon after transferred in groups to the Majdanek "Extermination Camp" where they met with the same fate: systematic torment, killing, wholesale shooting, hanging, etc. The witness Reznik stated the following: "In January 1941, about four thousand of us Jewish prisoners of war were loaded into railway trucks and sent eastward. . . . We were brought to Lublin, told to get out of the train and handed over to SS men. Approximately in September or October 1942, they decided to leave in the camp in No. 7 Lipovaya Street only those prisoners who had factory qualifications and were needed by the city. All the rest, including myself, were sent to the Majdanek Camp. We all knew perfectly well that to be sent to the Majdanek Camp meant death." Of this contingent of four thousand prisoners of war only a few individuals, who succeeded in escaping from their work outside of the camp, survived. In the summer of 1943, three hundred Soviet officers were brought to the Majdanek Camp. Among them were two colonels and four majors. All the rest were captains and senior lieutenants. All the aforesaid officers were shot in the Camp. During the whole of 1942, the wholesale shooting of prisoners in the camp, as well as of inhabitants brought in from outside, was carried on. Tadeusz Drabik, a Pole, inhabitant of the village of Krembeck (eight kilometres from Lublin), one day saw the SS men bring up eighty-eight truck loads of people of different nationalities and ages-men, women and children. These people were taken to the Krembecki Woods were made to alight from the trucks, were stripped of all their clothing and valuables and then shot on the edge of pits which had been dug beforehand. During 1942 the Germans systematically carried out wholesale shooting in the Krembecki Woods. ------------------------------------------------------------pg 11-- In the spring of 1942, six thousand persons arrived at the camp in one contingent; all were shot in the course of two days. On November 3, 1943, eighteen thousand four hundred persons were shot in the camp. Of these eight thousand four hundred were camp prisoners and ten thousand were people who had been brought here from the city and from other camps. Three days before this wholesale shooting, large trenches were dug within the precincts of the camp, behind the crematorium. The shooting began in the morning and ended late at night. The people were stripped naked. The SS men led them to the trenches in groups of fifty and one hundred, compelled them to lie face downwards in the bottom of the trench and shot them with automatic rifles. On top of the corpses another row of living persons was laid and these were also shot. This went on until the trench was filled. The corpses were then covered with a thin layer of earth. Two or three days later the bodies were disinterred and burnt in the crematorium and on bonfires. In order to drown the shrieks of the victims during the shooting, and also the sound of the firing, the Germans installed loudspeakers near the crematorium and in different parts of the camp, and all day long these loudspeakers blared forth jazz music. This wholesale shooting became widely known among the inhabitants of Lublin. SS man Hermann Vogel, who served at the camp, stated: "That day, in addition - to the people who were brought from the city, eight thousand four hundred persons were taken from the Lublin Camp and shot. I, know the exact figure because next day official information concerning the extermination of eight thousand four hundred persons was sent to the storehouse where I worked, as we had to check their clothing." Stanislawski, a Polish prisoner who worked in the camp office, stated the following concerning the shooting on November 3, 1943: ------------------------------------------------------------pg 12-- "The Germans called this shooting 'Sonderbehandlung' (special treatment), and it was under this heading that the report was sent to Berlin. This report contained the following statement-I quote literally: 'The difference between the number of prisoners in the camp in the morning and that of the evening arose as the result of the special extermination of eighteen thousand persons.'" The inhabitants of the village of Dziesiata were frequent witnesses of wholesale shooting, including those carried out in 1944. >From March to July 22 inclusive, the Gestapo brought up a large number of Polish inhabitants, men, women and children, in motor trucks and carts. They were taken to the crematorium, near which they were stripped naked and then shot in the trenches. "There were days," stated the witness Niedzialek, who witnessed these wholesale shootings of Polish inhabitants, "when from two-hundred to three hundred and more persons were shot." The Soviet prisoner of war Kanunnikov witnessed the shooting in July 1943 of forty women with little children in field No. 1. Early in the morning the bodies of thc victims were taken to the crematorium to be burnt." In the latter half of May 1943, the SS men brought to the Krembecki Woods two lorries drawn by a tractor and a motor truck, all loaded with the dead bodies of Polish children. The witness Gangol stated: "I remember another glaring case which I personally witnessed, and which I fully confirm today: in the latter half of May 1943 the SS men brought to the Krembecki Woods two lorries drawn by a tractor and a motor truck, all loaded exclusively with Polish children. They were entirely naked. All the bodies of these children were piled up in stacks in the woods and burnt." The witness Krasovskaya informed the Commission of a case of the shooting, in April 1943, of three hundred women brought from Greece. ------------------------------------------------------------pg 13-- The aforementioned cases of wholesale shooting represent only a small proportion of the cases collected by the commision. A Committee of Medical Experts under the chairmanship of Professor Szyling-Syngalewicz, Professor of Medical Jurisprudence at the Lublin Catholic University, and consisting of Dr. Rupniewski, Head Doctor of the Lublin City Administration; Lieutenant Colonel of the Army Medical Service Szkarabski, Medical Expert of a Front; Lieutenant Colonel of the Army Medical Service Krajewski, Dr. M. Sc., Chief Pathologist and Anatomist of a Front; Colonel Blochin of the Army Medical Service, Chief Toxicologist of a Front, and Captain Grafinska, Medical Expert of the First Polish Army, found as follows: "The examination of four hundred and sixty-seven corpses and two hundred and sixty-six skulls revealed traces of firearm wounds to the number of three hundred and forty two, indicating that it was a wide practice in the camp to sho[o]t prisoners, mainly in the back of the head, at close range, with weapons of 0.9 cm. calibre." Thus, the evidence of numerous witnesses as well as other proof (the exhumations carried out by the Committee of Medical Experts) prove that throughout the period of the existence of the Lublin Camp, the Germans carried out the wholesale shooting of prisoners, men, women and children, of different nationalities, some of whom were shot in the Krembecki Woods situated eight kilometres >from Majdanek. V. ASPHYXIATION BY GAS One of the most widespread methods of exterminating people resorted to in the Majdanck Camp was asphyxiation by gas. The Committee of Technical and Chemical Experts under the Chairmanship of Kelles-Krause, Engineer-Architect of the City of Lublin, and consisting of Engineer Major ------------------------------------------------------------pg 14-- Telaner, Docent; Grigoriev, B.M.E.; and Pelkis, B.M.E., found that the chambers erected within the precincts of tbe camp were mainly utilized for the purpose of the wholesale extermination of people. There were six such chambers in all. Some of them were adapted to the purpose of putting people to death by means of carbon monoxide; the others were adapted to the purpose of putting people to death with the aid of a poisonous chemical substance known as "Cyklon." Within the precincts of the camp were found five hundred and thirty-five canisters containing the substance "Cyklon B," and several containers with carbon monoxide. The chemical analysis revealed the following: "The contents of the canisters were tested for the presence of prussic acid by the reaction of the formation of Prussian blue with the aid of benzidino-acinate indicator paper and picric sodium. Samples were taken from eighteen canisters and forty-eight-separate reactions were produced. All the tests gave positive results showing the presence of prussic acid with the aforesaid reagents. . . . Thus, the contents of the canisters that were examined consist of the substance 'Cyklon B' which is a specially prepared kieselghur in the form of granules up to one cm., impregnated with liquid stabilized prussic acid. The contents of the canisters found in large numbers in the camp bearing the label 'Cyklon' are identical with 'Cyklon-B'. . .. . Samples of the gas taken from the containers were tested for carbon monoxide with the aid of reactions to iodinc pentoxide and From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:38 PDT 1996 Article: 56494 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G. Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:25:23 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 69 Message-ID: <4ujr0c$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <32042ADD.51A2@infinop.com> <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32075137.6FD4@gryn.org> <4u9erm$1rb@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <320A6041.1F3C@unb.ca> <4uf2tr$l8c@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <320c9f0b.7294615@news.inetport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:27:40 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:44:31 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 18:46:41 -0300, Keith Morrison >>wrote: >> >>>Matt Giwer wrote: >> >>>> In the lakes it is cumulative. On the ground it is cumulative. And >>>> it the river, now that our local river "expert" appears to be honest >>>> enough not to repeat his previous errors, the issue was NEVER >>>> logistics just as it was NEVER HCN being unsuitable. >> >>>What errors, you buffoon? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> A Tale of three Gassings >> >Mr. Giwer, stop trolling this. I will write a complaint so stop. To who? I >don't need to read this 40 or 50 times. You have not read it once. Actually I don't read HTML in >Usenet posts. As you admit. That is what the web is for. Provide a URL. Stop >reposting this. This is the 3rd time I've seen it since I' removed the >kill-file. I can easily put the killfile back on. So read it for the first time. It is amazing how many people who claim they are not bright enough to save to a file and then browse it. BTW: where does "third time" relate to "40 or 50" or is three suddenly worthy of a complaint? You appear to be saying you will make up a complaint for the purposes of harrassment. Why? >Mike Curtis E-mail mcurtis@inetport.com >For More Information try The Nizkor Project >Nizkor (USA) An Electronic Holocaust Educational Resource >Over 100Megs of data: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/cgi-bin/ftp.pl? >Europe: ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ >Nizkor Web: http://www.almanac.bc.ca/ (Under construction - permanently!) I have. I have gotten the majority of my anti-gassing information >from there. It only takes critical review of the material. They post anything that comes along no matter how it shoots down the gassing claim. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:39 PDT 1996 Article: 56495 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Creationist/exterminationist similarities Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:50:06 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 692 Message-ID: <4uk3g5$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4uj6n3$3v8@atlas.uniserve.com> <4ujcib$hpb@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:52:37 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 11 Aug 1996 01:21:15 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> hostrov@uniserve.com (Hilary Ostrov) writes: >> In <320CD3E3.36B1@unb.ca>, Keith Morrison wrote: > >> >Do try and stick to things you understand. > >> Not fair, Keith. Some might think that, by this exhortation, you are >> attempting to silence the witless troll. After all, if he were to >> follow your advice, he would have nothing to say about anything. > Except, of course, for comparisons of the various brands of cheap >bourbon. A subject on which, by all reports, he could match wits with the best >of them. > --YFE Nizkor FTP file: camps/maidanek/maidanek.004 Archive/File: camps/maidanek maidanek.004 Last-Modified: 1994/10/31 In doing research on the Majdanek concentration camp I came across a reference to a document written by the committee of inquiry which was set up by the Soviets and Poles after the liberation of the Majdanek concentration camp to investigate German crimes at the camp. This is especially important considering that since Majdanek was one of the first camps to be liberated, it was captured relatively intact because the Germans did not have enough time to destroy it or cover up all their crimes. I tracked down only two copies of this document in English in the whole country(there are versions in Russian, Polish and French also), the one of which I used being at the Hoover War Library at Stanford University. Once I received a copy I decided it would be worth it to enter it into my computer, and once I started I decided to make it available to other researchers. I scanned in the text and corrected the mistakes made by the OCR software which was not so accurate because of the poor quality of the photocopy and of the original printing. This will hopefully be the first in a series of documents which I will be making available electronically. I am making this available through e-mail by request, in the various Holocaust archives, and in the original Macintosh document by request. If I ever get my WWW home page set up, it'll be available there too. If you have any questions about this text please feel free to e-mail me at philip@cs.brandeis.edu (which should be active at least through 1997). Feel free to distribute this but please make sure not to edit or change the text and to leave my intro in place. Thank you. Philip Trauring Format notes: I have tried as best I could to retain the format of the printed document. The original has pages which are about 4 inches wide and 6 inches tall. I separated the pages by dotted lines with the page number on the line preceding the page which it designates. I also, whenever possible, used accent marks and curly quotes to keep it exactly as I saw it on the page -- this means that if you received this document over e-mail without MIME encoding that you will see some strange characters in the middle of the document -- if your mail reader has MIME capabilities then I beleive everying should look okay. The version of this which is available as a Macintosh document also uses different sized type, bold text and centered text to make it match the styles and such from the original. ------------------------------------------------------------------ [Archival note: I have reformatted this document for the archives. The changes are solely in format; i.e. paragraphs now contain spaces between them, and the right margin has been reset to 70 from 75. Mr. Trauring's original format has been preserved in maidanek.005. knm] COMMUNIQUE OF THE POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY COMMISSION FOR INVESTIGATING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN FOREIGN LANGAUGES PUBLISHING HOUSE MOSCOW 1944 ------------------------------------------------------------------ CONTENTS page Preamble ...........................................1 I. The Majdanek Extermination Camp in Lublin........2 II. The Categories of Prisoners in the Camp.........3 III. The Tortures and Bloody Reprisals Practised in the Extermination Camp...................5 IV. The Wholesale Shooting of Prisoners of War and Civilians in the Camp...................9 V. Asphyxiation by Gas.............................13 VI. The German Butchers Tried to Cover up the Traces of their Heinous Crimes.............18 VII. The Hitlerites Robbed the Prisoners in the Camp of their Valuables and Belongings.....22 Printed in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics ------------------------------------------------------------pg 01-- COMMUNIQUE OF THE POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY COMMISSION FOR INVESTIGATING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN The Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission for Investigating the Crimes Committed by the Germans in Lublin, consisting of Mr. A. Witos, Vice-Chairman of the Polish Committee of National Liberation (Chairman of the Commission); the Rev. Dr. Kruszynski, Dean of the Lublin Catholic Cathedral; Dr. Somerstein, member of the Polish Committee of National Liberation; Mr. Christians, Barrister, President of the Lublin Red Cross Society; Professor Bialkowski of the Lublin Catholic University; Professor Poplawski of the Lublin University; Mr. Balcerzak, Procurator of the Lublin Appeal Court and Mr. Szczepanski, Preeident of the Lublin Circuit Court (representing Poland); and D. I. Kudryavtsev (Vice-Chairman of the Commission), Professor V. I. Prozorovsky and Professor N. I. Graschenkov, (representing the U.S.S.R.), investigated the crimes committed in Lublin. In the territory of Poland the Hitlerites set up an extensive network of concentration camps: in Lublin, Demblin, Oswiencim, Cholm, Sobibor, Biala Podlaska, Treblinka and other places. To these camps they transported for extermination hundreds of thousands of people from the occupied countries of Europe-France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Greece, Denmark, Norway and others. In these camps the criminal Hitler government organized the massacre of whole sections of the population whom they regarded as undesirable, primarily the intellectuals of the ------------------------------------------------------------pg 02-- occupied countries of Europe, Soviet and Polish prisoners of war, and Jews. The facts discovered by the Commission in its investigation of the crimes committed by the Germans in Lublin far exceed in brutality and barbarity the monstrous crimes committed by the German fascist invaders of which international public opinion is already aware. I. THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN In Majdanek, Lublin, the Hitlerite butchers built a vast slaughter house, which they themselves called 'Vernichtungslager,' i.e., 'Extermination Camp.' The following two Germans, now prisoners of war, who served in this camp, testified: Rottenfuhrer SS Theodor Schollen: "This camp was called 'Vernichtungslager,' i.e 'Extermination Camp'-precisely because a colossal number of people were exterminated here." Kampfpolizist Heinz Stalbe: "The main purpose of this camp was to exterminate the largest possible number of people. That is why it was called 'Vernichtungslager' i.e., 'Extermination Camp.'" The-Majdanek Camp, situated two kilometres from Lublin, occupies an area of two hundred and seventy hectares. Its erection was commenced at the end of 1940. In the beginning of 1943 six fields of the camp were completed. In every field there were twenty-four barracks, making one hundred and forty-four barracks in all (not counting other buildings used as warehouses, workshops, etc.), each accommodating three hundred persons and over. The camp was surrounded by two rows of barbed wire. Furthermore, within the camp all the six fields were divided off by a whole network of barbed wire fences with a guard room at the entrance to each field. The barbed wire fences around these fields were charged with a high voltage electric current. All over the camp tall watch towers were erected in ------------------------------------------------------------pg 03-- which sentries armed with machine guns were constantly posted. The camp was strongly guarded by SS troops. In addition there were two hundred German police dogs, which played an important part in guarding the camp, and an auxiliary force of police called Kampfpolizei, which consisted of criminal elements. II. THE CATEGORIES OF PRISONERS IN THE CAMP The camp was capable of accommodating from twenty five to forty thousand prisoners at a time. At some periods as many as forty five thousand prisoners were confined there. The categories of prisoners confined in the camp varied at different times. The prisoners were systematically exterminated and fresh transports of prisoners arrived to take their place, so that for the overwhelming majority of persons sent here the camp was only a stage on the road to death. The camp contained prisoners of war of the former Polish army captured as far back 1939, Soviet prisoners of war, and civilians from Poland, France, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Yugoslavia, Denmark, Norway and other countries. This is established by: a) the discovery within the precincts of the camp of a large number of passports and other documents belonging to citizens of different countries of Europe who perished in this camp. For example: the passport of U.S.S.R. citizens Maria Timofeyovna Goryunova, Nikolui Frantsevich Mazurkevich, and others; documents belonging to Polish citizens Czeslaw Siedlecki, Wladyslaw Soniczny, Stanislaw Jankiewicz and others; documents belonging to French citizens Gabriel Labrouge, Emile Moltagne, Lucien Roi, Auguste Chirol, Andre Prinson, and others; documents belonging to Czechoslovak citizens Josef Hluce, Rudolf Feldinger and others; documents belonging to Italian citizens Gustav Muole, Guiseppe Music, Pio Tinozi, and others; documents belong- ------------------------------------------------------------pg 04-- ing to the Netherlands citizens Berthus van der Palm, Andertinus van der Irimi, Petrus Jansen and others; documents belonging to Yugoslav citizens Stjepan Stepanovic, Rano Zunic and others; documents belonging to Belgian citizens Leon Bazeo, Theophil van Hauseran, and others; documents belonging to Greek citizens Ean Zurene, and others, and also documents belonging to people of other nationalities; b) the register of deaths in the so-called "Lager-Lazarett," but actually the register of those exterminated, in which the names of a considerable number of dead persons of different nationalities are recorded. In March 1944 alone, of one thousand six hundred and fifty-four prisoners who died, six hundred and fifteen were Russians, two hundred and forty-seven Poles, one hundred and eight French, seventy-four Yugoslavs, whiIe the rest belonged to other nationalities inhabiting the countries of Western Europe; c) the evidence of a number of witnesses: former German prisoners of the camp aud prisoners of war who had served in the camp, and also the evidence of former prisoners in the camp: Le-du Corantin, a Frenchman; Tomasek, a Czech; Benen, a Netherlander, and others. The list of prisoners exterminated in the camp was constantly augmented by the names of Soviet prisoners of war, sections of the population of occupied countries of Europe, different sections of the population captured by the Gestapo in the streets, railway stations and in houses during the systemic raids and searches constantly carried out by the Hitlerites in Poland and other countries of Europe, and also by the names of Jews brought here from the ghettoes set up by the Gestapo in Poland and different towns in Western Europe. Among the prisoners there were numerous women, children and aged persons. Sometimes whole families were confined in the camp. The children were of different ages, including infants. Thus, the camp was a place for the wholesale extermination of different nationalities of Europe. ------------------------------------------------------------pg 05-- III. THE TORTURES AND BLOODY REPRISALS PRACTISED IN THE EXTERMINATION CAMP The regime in the "Extermination Camp" served the object of accomplishing tho wholesale extermination of the prisoners. The prisoners dragged out a miserable existence of starvation. The ordinary daily ration of a prisoner consisted of one issue per day of coffee made of roasted turnips, two issues per day of soup made of grass, and from one hundred and eighty to two hundred and seventy grams of bread, half adulterated with sawdust or chestnut flour. This led to the complete exhaustion of the prisoners, to the spread of tuberculosis amd other diseases and the wholesale dying out of the prisoners. For the slightest "offence" the prisoners were deprived of even this meagre food for several days at a stretch, which practically doomed them to death from starvation. Tomasek, a Czech and a former prisoner of the camp, stated before the Commission: "The people starved all the time. The wholesale exhaustion of the prisoners and death from exbaustion were observed. The prisoners ate offal, cats and dogs. Most of the prisoners looked like walking skeletons covered with skin, or were unaturally bloated due to swelling resulting from starvation." Corporal Reznik of the Polish Army and former prisoner of the camp stated: "I noticed that the Russian prisoners of war were hardly fed at all. They were reduced to an extreme state of exhaustion. Their bodies swelled, and they were not even able to talk. They died in large numbers." Starvation was one of the important elements of the general system of extermination that prevailed in the camp. The working day started at 4 a.m. The Germans burst into the barracks and roused the people with whips. The roll was called, at which all, sound and sick alike, had to be present. Those who had died in the night had to be taken out to the ------------------------------------------------------------pg 06-- barrack square by those who had slept next to them to be checked. The roll-call lasted two hours and more, and was accompanied by the beating and tormenting of the prisoners. If a prisoner swooned and was unable to answer when his name was called, he was registered as dead and killed with clubs. At 6 a.m. the prisoners were taken out to work. The work was exceptionally heavy and exhausting. It was accompanied by severe beating, torment and murder. The gangs of prisoners returning for their so-called dinner at 11 a.m., carried with them their fellow-prisoners who had been beaten, mutilated or killed. During the evening roll-call the SS men on duty read the names of those prisoners who had worked "badly," and these were tied to a form and flogged with whips, rods or birches. The number of strokes inflicted ranged from twenty five and over. Often, prisoners were flogged to death. Zelent, Docent of the Warsaw University, formerly a prisoner of the camp, stated: "I knew Barrister Nosek, from Radom, who was given one hundred strokes, from which he died three days later." In the case of intellectuals and prominent persons among the prisoners, particularly refined methods of torture were adopted. The Germans compelled Professor Michalowicz, age seventy-two, the famous expert on infantile diseases, Professor Pomirowski, age sixty, of the Warsaw Politechnical Institute, Wazowicz, age seventy-five, a member of the Polish Supreme Court, and many others, to perform the most arduous work, and tormented them in every possible way. Tadeusz Budzyn, M. Sc. Chem., a Pole, and formerly a prisoner at the camp stated: "The Germans compelled a large group of professors, physicians, engineers and other specialists, numbering one thousand two hundred in all, who came from Greece, to carry heavy stones from one place to another, a task which was far beyond their strength. The scientists who dropped from exhaustion as a result of this heavy labour were beaten ------------------------------------------------------------pg 07-- to death by thc SS men. Owing to the system of starvation, exhausting labour, beating and murder, the entire group of Greek scientists was exterminated in the course of five weeks." The methods of torturing and tormenting prisoners varied to an extraordiuary degree. Many of them bore the character of alleged "jokes," which very often ended in the death of the prisoners upon whom they were played. Among these may be cited the mock shooting of a prisoner while simultaneously stunning him by a blow on the head with a plank or other blunt instrument, and the mock drowning of prisoners in the pool at the camp, which often ended in the actual drowning of the victims. Among the German butchers in the camp some specialized in particular methods of torture and murder. They killed their victims by striking them with a club across the back of the neck, kicking them in the stomach or in the groin, etc, The SS torturers drowned their victims in the filthy water that flowed from the bathhouse into a shallow ditch. The victim's head was forced into this filthy water and kept there with the jackboot of the SS man until he expired. The favourite method of the Hitlerite SS men was to hang their victims by their arms, which were tied behind their backs. Le-du Corantin, a Frenchman, who had suffered this form of punishment, stated that when thus suspended the victim soon lost consciousness. When that happencd the victim was lowered, but was hung up again as soon us he recovered consciousness. This was repeatcd over and over again. For the slightest offence, especially on suspicion of attempting to escape, the German fiends hanged prisoners in the camp. In the middle of every field there was a post with a cross-tree fixed to it about two metres high on which people were hanged. "From my barrack," said the witness Domashev, a Soviet prisoner of war who was confined in this camp, "I saw people hanged on this post in the middle of the field." ------------------------------------------------------------pg 08-- Near the laundry, in the space between fields No. 1 and No. 2, there was a special barrack with beams stretching from one end to another, from which people were hanged in whole groups. Female prisoners in the camp were subjected to no less torment and torture: the same methods of roll-call, exhausting labour, beating and torment. The chief woman overseer Erich, of the SS, and the women overseers Braunstein, Anni Devid, Weber, Knobliek, Ellert and Redli, were distinguished for their cruelty. The commission has established numerous cases of absolutely unprecedented cruelties on the part of the German fiends in the camp. At a plenary session of the Commission, the German Kampfpolizist, Heinz Stalbe stated that he saw the chief of the crematorium, Oberscharfuhrer Munsfeld, tie a Polish womam hand and foot and throw her alive into the furnace. Witnesses Jelinski and Olech, who were employed in the camp, also testified to the burning of people alive in the crematorium furnaces.."A child was torn from a mother's breast and before her eyes was dashed against the wall of the barrack and killed," stated the witness Atrokhov. The witness Edward Baran stated: "I myself saw little children torn away from their mothers and killed before their eyes: the child was held by one leg, the other was kept down by the foot and the child was thus torn in two." The Deputy Chief of the camp, Obersturmfuhrer SS, Tumann, was notorious for his exceptional sadism. He forced groups of prisoners to stand in a row on thier knees and killed them by striking them on the head with a club; he set police dogs on the prisoners; he took a most active part in all the punishments and killing of prisoners. Thus, starvation, exhausting labour, torment, torture and murder, accompanied by unprecedented sadism, were resorted to in the wholesale slaughter of prisoners in this camp. ------------------------------------------------------------pg 09-- IV. THE WHOLESALE SHOOTING OF PRISONERS OF WAR AND CIVILIANS IN THE CAMP The wholesale extermination of the civilian population of European countries, including Poland and the occupied regions of the U.S.S.R., was the deliberate policy of Hitler Germany, which logically followed >from her plan to enslave and exterminate the progressive and active part of the Slavonic peoples. The erection in enslaved Poland of camps for the wholesale extermination of European peoples and prisoners of war was prompted by the desire of the Hitlerite ruling clique to cover up and conceal their crimes in every possible way. These camps, including the Majdanek "Extermination Camp," were also places for the complete extermination of tho Jewish population. One of the methods of exterminating vast masses of people whom Hitler Germany regarded as undesirable was wholesale shooting, which was extensively practised in the Lublin "Extermination Camp." The bloody history of this camp commences with the wholesale shooting of Soviet prisoners of war, which the SS men carried out in November-December 1941. Of a contingent of over two thousand Soviet prisoners of war, only eighty survived; all the rest were shot, except for a small group who were tortured to death. In the period from January to April 1942 fresh contingents of Soviet prisoners of war arrived in the canmp and were shot. Jan Niedzialek, a Pole, a hired waggon driver at the camp, stated: "In the winter of 1942 the Germans exterminated about five thousand Russian prisoners of war in the following way: the prisoners were carted in motor trucks from their barracks to pits in the old quarry and there they were shot." Prisoners of war of the former Polish army, captured as far back as 1939 and confined in different camps in Germany ------------------------------------------------------------pg 10-- were already in 1940 collected iu the camp in Lipovaya Street in Lublin and soon after transferred in groups to the Majdanek "Extermination Camp" where they met with the same fate: systematic torment, killing, wholesale shooting, hanging, etc. The witness Reznik stated the following: "In January 1941, about four thousand of us Jewish prisoners of war were loaded into railway trucks and sent eastward. . . . We were brought to Lublin, told to get out of the train and handed over to SS men. Approximately in September or October 1942, they decided to leave in the camp in No. 7 Lipovaya Street only those prisoners who had factory qualifications and were needed by the city. All the rest, including myself, were sent to the Majdanek Camp. We all knew perfectly well that to be sent to the Majdanek Camp meant death." Of this contingent of four thousand prisoners of war only a few individuals, who succeeded in escaping from their work outside of the camp, survived. In the summer of 1943, three hundred Soviet officers were brought to the Majdanek Camp. Among them were two colonels and four majors. All the rest were captains and senior lieutenants. All the aforesaid officers were shot in the Camp. During the whole of 1942, the wholesale shooting of prisoners in the camp, as well as of inhabitants brought in from outside, was carried on. Tadeusz Drabik, a Pole, inhabitant of the village of Krembeck (eight kilometres from Lublin), one day saw the SS men bring up eighty-eight truck loads of people of different nationalities and ages-men, women and children. These people were taken to the Krembecki Woods were made to alight from the trucks, were stripped of all their clothing and valuables and then shot on the edge of pits which had been dug beforehand. During 1942 the Germans systematically carried out wholesale shooting in the Krembecki Woods. ------------------------------------------------------------pg 11-- In the spring of 1942, six thousand persons arrived at the camp in one contingent; all were shot in the course of two days. On November 3, 1943, eighteen thousand four hundred persons were shot in the camp. Of these eight thousand four hundred were camp prisoners and ten thousand were people who had been brought here from the city and from other camps. Three days before this wholesale shooting, large trenches were dug within the precincts of the camp, behind the crematorium. The shooting began in the morning and ended late at night. The people were stripped naked. The SS men led them to the trenches in groups of fifty and one hundred, compelled them to lie face downwards in the bottom of the trench and shot them with automatic rifles. On top of the corpses another row of living persons was laid and these were also shot. This went on until the trench was filled. The corpses were then covered with a thin layer of earth. Two or three days later the bodies were disinterred and burnt in the crematorium and on bonfires. In order to drown the shrieks of the victims during the shooting, and also the sound of the firing, the Germans installed loudspeakers near the crematorium and in different parts of the camp, and all day long these loudspeakers blared forth jazz music. This wholesale shooting became widely known among the inhabitants of Lublin. SS man Hermann Vogel, who served at the camp, stated: "That day, in addition - to the people who were brought from the city, eight thousand four hundred persons were taken from the Lublin Camp and shot. I, know the exact figure because next day official information concerning the extermination of eight thousand four hundred persons was sent to the storehouse where I worked, as we had to check their clothing." Stanislawski, a Polish prisoner who worked in the camp office, stated the following concerning the shooting on November 3, 1943: ------------------------------------------------------------pg 12-- "The Germans called this shooting 'Sonderbehandlung' (special treatment), and it was under this heading that the report was sent to Berlin. This report contained the following statement-I quote literally: 'The difference between the number of prisoners in the camp in the morning and that of the evening arose as the result of the special extermination of eighteen thousand persons.'" The inhabitants of the village of Dziesiata were frequent witnesses of wholesale shooting, including those carried out in 1944. >From March to July 22 inclusive, the Gestapo brought up a large number of Polish inhabitants, men, women and children, in motor trucks and carts. They were taken to the crematorium, near which they were stripped naked and then shot in the trenches. "There were days," stated the witness Niedzialek, who witnessed these wholesale shootings of Polish inhabitants, "when from two-hundred to three hundred and more persons were shot." The Soviet prisoner of war Kanunnikov witnessed the shooting in July 1943 of forty women with little children in field No. 1. Early in the morning the bodies of thc victims were taken to the crematorium to be burnt." In the latter half of May 1943, the SS men brought to the Krembecki Woods two lorries drawn by a tractor and a motor truck, all loaded with the dead bodies of Polish children. The witness Gangol stated: "I remember another glaring case which I personally witnessed, and which I fully confirm today: in the latter half of May 1943 the SS men brought to the Krembecki Woods two lorries drawn by a tractor and a motor truck, all loaded exclusively with Polish children. They were entirely naked. All the bodies of these children were piled up in stacks in the woods and burnt." The witness Krasovskaya informed the Commission of a case of the shooting, in April 1943, of three hundred women brought from Greece. ------------------------------------------------------------pg 13-- The aforementioned cases of wholesale shooting represent only a small proportion of the cases collected by the commision. A Committee of Medical Experts under the chairmanship of Professor Szyling-Syngalewicz, Professor of Medical Jurisprudence at the Lublin Catholic University, and consisting of Dr. Rupniewski, Head Doctor of the Lublin City Administration; Lieutenant Colonel of the Army Medical Service Szkarabski, Medical Expert of a Front; Lieutenant Colonel of the Army Medical Service Krajewski, Dr. M. Sc., Chief Pathologist and Anatomist of a Front; Colonel Blochin of the Army Medical Service, Chief Toxicologist of a Front, and Captain Grafinska, Medical Expert of the First Polish Army, found as follows: "The examination of four hundred and sixty-seven corpses and two hundred and sixty-six skulls revealed traces of firearm wounds to the number of three hundred and forty two, indicating that it was a wide practice in the camp to sho[o]t prisoners, mainly in the back of the head, at close range, with weapons of 0.9 cm. calibre." Thus, the evidence of numerous witnesses as well as other proof (the exhumations carried out by the Committee of Medical Experts) prove that throughout the period of the existence of the Lublin Camp, the Germans carried out the wholesale shooting of prisoners, men, women and children, of different nationalities, some of whom were shot in the Krembecki Woods situated eight kilometres >from Majdanek. V. ASPHYXIATION BY GAS One of the most widespread methods of exterminating people resorted to in the Majdanck Camp was asphyxiation by gas. The Committee of Technical and Chemical Experts under the Chairmanship of Kelles-Krause, Engineer-Architect of the City of Lublin, and consisting of Engineer Major ------------------------------------------------------------pg 14-- Telaner, Docent; Grigoriev, B.M.E.; and Pelkis, B.M.E., found that the chambers erected within the precincts of tbe camp were mainly utilized for the purpose of the wholesale extermination of people. There were six such chambers in all. Some of them were adapted to the purpose of putting people to death by means of carbon monoxide; the others were adapted to the purpose of putting people to death with the aid of a poisonous chemical substance known as "Cyklon." Within the precincts of the camp were found five hundred and thirty-five canisters containing the substance "Cyklon B," and several containers with carbon monoxide. The chemical analysis revealed the following: "The contents of the canisters were tested for the presence of prussic acid by the reaction of the formation of Prussian blue with the aid of benzidino-acinate indicator paper and picric sodium. Samples were taken from eighteen canisters and forty-eight-separate reactions were produced. All the tests gave positive results showing the presence of prussic acid with the aforesaid reagents. . . . Thus, the contents of the canisters that were examined consist of the substance 'Cyklon B' which is a specially prepared kieselghur in the form of granules up to one cm., impregnated with liquid stabilized prussic acid. The contents of the canisters found in large numbers in the camp bearing the label 'Cyklon' are identical with 'Cyklon-B'. . .. . Samples of the gas taken from the containers were tested for carbon monoxide with the aid of reactions to iodinc pentoxide and From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:40 PDT 1996 Article: 56500 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:32:53 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 26 Message-ID: <4ujree$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u2gvo$ss@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3204dfdc.490260@news.pacificnet.net> <4ucq11$4ef@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4uesdm$lfe@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4uh942$cn9@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <320C9CC0.47B9@rio.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:35:10 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 14:29:20 +0000, Chuck Ferree wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> On 9 Aug 1996 08:21:10 GMT, s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan >> Schneider) wrote: >Chuck Ferree wrote for Matt: >Giwer, what is your problem? >This man is a Phd. Professor of chemistry. You're in way over your >head. Arguing your limp bullshit with this or any other person who >obviously knows about 100% more than you do about the subject matter, >proves once again, that you are bluffing, lying and full of baloney. >Better you should continue to chase but not catch fat broads. >Chuck Chuch Ferree was once trusted with a loaded airplane by the US Army. Is it not amazing how far people can fall? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:40 PDT 1996 Article: 56501 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:33:59 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4ujrgf$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4u2gvo$ss@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3204dfdc.490260@news.pacificnet.net> <4ucq11$4ef@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <320B4BC4.3780@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:36:15 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 10:31:32 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> On 8 Aug 1996 13:28:01 GMT, s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan >> Schneider) wrote: >> >> >Not to mention, that liquid hydrocyanic acid explodes, when contacted with >> >oxygen and alcalics. Somebody here doubting that concrete is very alcalic? >> >> It is interesting to read that when cans of ZB were opened they >> exploded. That does sort of make the entire use of ZB rather >> worthless, does it not? >No - that makes ZB an excellent mechanism for transporting HCN. >But you know that. As of course you were expected to delete, the claim was that exposure to oxygen caused an explosion. Alec, you are a very strange engineer. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:41 PDT 1996 Article: 56502 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Zyklon B: Kieselguhr & Gypsum Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:35:50 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 36 Message-ID: <4ujrju$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ucq11$4ef@hades.rz.uni-sb.de> <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ugft4$jkt@access5.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:38:06 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Aug 1996 18:59:48 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4uehi3$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >>On 8 Aug 1996 13:28:01 GMT, s.schneider@rz.uni-sb.de (Stefan >>Schneider) wrote: >>>Not to mention, that liquid hydrocyanic acid explodes, when contacted with >>>oxygen and alcalics. Somebody here doubting that concrete is very alcalic? >> >> It is interesting to read that when cans of ZB were opened they >>exploded. That does sort of make the entire use of ZB rather >>worthless, does it not? > It is interesting to read that ZB was _liquid_ hydrocyanic acid. I >thought you said it was wood pulp? What is today's true truth? > Or did your reading comprehension take a powder again? > Or are you just lying again? >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted >-- >Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. >POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official >Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. You appear to be trying to prove you are illiterate. 98-99% pure HCN (as a liquid to do vapor pressure else it could not be used) and the claim was that it exploded on contact with oxygen. To refresh your third grade science, the air contains oxygen. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:42 PDT 1996 Article: 56507 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: listen up, Alec G. Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 05:18:26 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 211 Message-ID: <4ujqje$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <094_9608031133@tor250.org> <32042ADD.51A2@infinop.com> <4u1duj$1n0@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <32075137.6FD4@gryn.org> <4u9erm$1rb@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <320A6041.1F3C@unb.ca> <4uf2tr$l8c@sjx-ixn1.ix.netcom.com> <320BB56C.7AF1@unb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:20:46 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 19:02:20 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >(HTML spam deleted) >> Other than the mistake I made about the >> >density of apatite, which subsequent posters have indicated that I >> >may not have been as wrong as I thought, I stand by everything >> >I wrote. >> >> >And as for the lakes, you ignorant putz, I believe that 1481 >> >cubic meters of bone ash, which I roughly calculated would be >> >formed by burning 1 million men, women and children, dumped in a >> >lake 1 km by 2 km in size, would form a layer 0.4 mm thick. >> >> AND complelely measureable even with 1945 technology. >But we're not talking about 1945, bonehead, we're talking *now*. Have >you ever seen a core taken from soil, Mattie? Even once? Sure, you >can detect such a layer. But do you know how hard it is to see something >0.4 millimeters thick? Try it sometime. Take a 0.5 mm mechanical pencil >and draw a straight line across a sheet of paper. Then paint the paper >black and brown, crumple it up and bury it for a year. >Then show me how easy it is to see that single line. Idiot. As to your thickness, it would be quite easy visually. But as we know the sieve size was on centimeter so it would be much easier, not even causing eyestrain. Further, it is going to be near the shore. Even distribution over a lake can not be assumed without knowing a mechanism for it. And of course you have to keep in mind that there is not one bit of testimony claiming there was any attempt to hide the consequences of cremation. There was clearly no reason to do so as there were no cremations necessary to hide as all of the cremations had a recorded cause of death, mainly disease. >> >> You really should find the time to follow the discussion or withdraw >> >> until you have the time. >> >> >People living in glass houses... >> >> I would suggest you learn what that means. >"A person who complains about others making the same mistake he is, a hypocrite". >Accurate enough, Mr. Giwer. You hypocrite. I consistantly state what I am proposing and consistantly support it with many times the identical material, sometimes with addtions to that material when it is appropriate. The majority of my material is based upon things right from Nizkor and other holohugger sources. What is hypocritical about that? >> >According to Giwer Math, 0.4 millimeters is such a TERRIBLY ENORMOUS >> >thickness that people should be struggling through it. Accordingly, >> >everything you have to say about math is questionable. >> >> Find it. No one ever looked for it even when it was fresh. >No no no, that's not the way it works. Nice try, bonehead, but no cigar. >And why would they bother looking in 1945? They had thousands of witnesses, >truckloads of documents, lots of confessions. I doubt that they thought >that fifty years later an unemployed loser such as yourself would demand >evidence for the blatently obvious. They would look for the 1 cm sieve size then for the same reason they would look now. To produce physical evidence. It is standard procedure in all criminal investigations. But you remember it was a secret and they never produced "thousands" of witnesses, rather a few dozen who never appeared in person before any court but all by statement, i.e. no crossexamination. As the holohuggers are constantly being reminded there are less than ten docomuments that can be inferred to mean gassing and only one struggled translation indicates gassing. As for the confessions, I have a posted a "confession" from Hoess himself that declares he witnessed the first gassing and that death was instantaneous. I have posted many other confessions that are contrary to HCN execution. Rather than reject the confessions, I welcome them to show they do not describe the gassing they are used to defend. As to unemployed, remember, I do not need to be employed. I have the freedom to do exactly what I want and I have had that freedom for four years. When you are 65 you will be physically unable to do what I have been doing for years. I presume you hassle everyone in my position for the same reasons. I do not need to play running for president. I do not have the financial needs of Perot and and Forbes and folks like them. So what is your problem? That you still have to work for a living? Why did you not live right in your youth? Because you are still a youth. >> >> >BTW - even if it did, the ashes would have been a minor amount of that >> >> >and the river flow was still more than adequate to get rid of it all. >> >> >> >> You certainly know more about fluid flow than to make that claim. And >> >> then there are the lakes and the land. >> >> >Lakes? Lakes you say? Like, more than one? So that the total ash of 1 million >> >people might not form a 0.4 millimeter thickness in one lake but might be spread >> >over several, thus thinning it by several orders or magniture? >> >> >Would you like me to relaod that shotgun you just fired into your foot? >> >> Show your assumptions and your math. The chunks are on the order of >> 0.5 to 1 cm in size. You millimeter stuff shows only that you are not >> interested in reading the NG. >Alright, but only if you pay attention this time. >Assuming a particle size of 10 millimeters square. Assume 800 cubic meters >of these particles. That is 800 000 000 cubic centimeters. The *maximum* >area that can be covered is 80 000 square meters. One hectare is 10000 >square meters, thus this area is 8 hectares. >About twenty acres. A small farm's worth. Wow, hard to get rid of... Been there, done that, did you miss my post on the subject? Your particle size is WRONG. Correct it. Even distribution is not in question. There are eyewitness reports of trying to leave chuncks of bone behind at Treblinka for evidence which was completely unnecessary. I have posted the calculations based upon holohuggers claims for Treblinka. You are ignoring what has been posted and making up your own numbers as you go along. Deal with the witness claims that the holohuggers have posted. Not with what you choose to make up as you go along. If you do not remember, go to DejaNews and read up on it all. Take Alec with you. >> >Hey Matt. I bet you I can dump a truckload a day of ash in a slow moving >> >river the size of the Vistula and come back fifty years later to see that >> >it is gone. Wanna bet? I'll be around to check. One of the advantages of >> >being a "youngster". >> >> Read the fucking newsgroup before you jump again. DejaNews will get >> you up to date. READ IT ALL! >Sure thing. Only, I read almost everything said here. Especially your stuff. >And trust me, bonehead, you should get a clue. Your almost is not good enough. In this post alone you have demonstrated you are not dealing with the numbers posted. And remember, NO REPORTED BONE CRUSHING at Treblinka. >As for DejaNews it is my number three bookmark. Would you like I should go >there and dig up some stuff you still haven't answered, cheesebrain? I >thought not. Only if they either your questions or the person posing the questions is here to read them and will respond to my replies, period. You may ask your original questions and I will answer them. More clearly that means that the questions McVay invented AFTER he publically announced I was in his killfile will not be answered in any form. I hope that is clear to you. If McVay can not deal with reality I will not deal with his surrogates. >> >> And if you review your fluid flow you will certainly agree the ashes >> >> are either still there or an estimatable distance downstream moving as >> >> a mass. That the Russians did not feel it necessary to verify the >> >> stories in 1945 speaks volumes for the basis for their case. >> >> >Bullshit, Giwer. What you know about hydrogeology I can write on the tip of >> >my pinkie finger with a paintbrush. A slowly moving mass going downriver? >> >Absolute garbage. Even if this stuff did sink it would not stay in one place >> >or move as a unit. Even heavy metals like gold are distributed downstream >> >and certainly do not move as a mass, so I have no idea why the laws of >> >nature should suddenly change just Because! You! Say! So! >> >> You blew it badly lying about the fluid flow rates on the banks and >> bottoms of rivers. >> >> And now you are pissed and want to save your ego with an attack. >> >> That is human and understandable. >> >> That you remain on the attack when so clearly wrong is not >> understandable. >It should be for you. Want to tell us again when the term "United Nations" >was first used? >You will note that Giwer cannot respond and thus is reduced to the childish >tactic of saying "Is not! Is not!" >Get a clue, you simpering twit. I agree, you were completely wrong about flow rates and damn near everything else you claimed to know about rivers. But you posted it to support your favorite holocaust even though you knew better. Why would an honest person do that? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:42 PDT 1996 Article: 56508 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Except from Rudolf Report -- Zyklon B Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 06:21:02 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 111 Message-ID: <4uju8p$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u7v5l$f7d@newsbf02.news.aol.com> <3208abcf.351080@news.pacificnet.net> <3209ea0c.853809@news.pacificnet.net> <320c8ca2.563475@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 1:23:21 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 13:25:04 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes: >> >># Whereas the atomic bomb was an improvement, as far as being >># able to destroy, and wasn't developed until a certain >># time, at which time they used it, Zyklon B was there >># already. It is also evident, going by Holocaust facts, >>that >># carbon monoxide was used with relative ease compared to >>what >># the Germans had to go through with Zyklon B. >>Hardly. Bottled CO was rather expensive and difficult to >>ship around in large quantities. Engine exhaust caused >>problems (we have the report about an explosion taking >>place in Chelmno), engines would break down, and it is >>not clear how it would apply for the huge gas chambers >>of Birkenau. > Nizkor > Ftp > camps > "majdanek .004". A Soviet report states >they found gas tanks that were said to hold CO. And it is there, and real "evidence of the holohugger kind" and also one more example that Nizkor is extremely revisionist or at least a great source for revisionists if they are willing to dig deep enough. > You say a report on an explosion from exhaust fumes. No. He mentioned an explosion. He left it to you to assume exhaust fumes that were related to gassing people. Odds on, he is making it all up. It must have >been a freak accident. The process was simple by most Holocaust facts. >An engine, some pipes, and that was it. It is said that over 3,000,000 >people were killed with carbon monoxide gas from the engine source, >and you point to a report about "an explosion taking place", from >exhaust fumes. But of course at the time of the ZB "experiment" they had decided to use gas but did not know which gas even though CO had been in successful use for a year. I only quote the experts here. >>Zyklon-B was available at large quantities; it was cheap; a >>very small amount can kill thousands of people; and the SS >>had a great deal of experience with using it. > So what you are saying is that Zyklon B was cost effective over >carbon monoxide? > The Zyklon B would be made after a number of steps and >transportations. The manufacture of the materials for the carrier and >shipping to Degesch, the manufacture of the HCN and shipping, the >making of the product (under specialized conditions one would think), >packaging in the cans, crating, shipping. Not to mention all the other >little expenses, man hours, clerical, worker, etc. Printing that had >to be put on the side of the cans. Training teams, and a slue of other >expense considerations. > With the carbon monoxide trick, all one had to do is put a little >gas in the engine, start it up, turn it off. > Seems like Zyklon B could cost 10 or 20 times that for the carbon >monoxide procedure. But they knew all of that before they chose the stranger method. >># And as Ehrich's post shows, with more direct approach than >># Mr.Keren and company's tactics of referring people to >># some "images" written in German, >>Can you elaborate? > Ehrlich's post is in English. He seems to have posted the >material itself, instead of just referring people to it. >># the product Zyklon B would have been a poor choice >># since only 12.5%, at the most, of the product would have >># been used with 87.5%, >>More than 12.5; but this is not really crucial. > "Not really crucial"? Crucial to what? It's capacity to kill, or >its cost effectiveness. Maybe you are referring to some other >"crucial". > I see you have employed one of your favorite practices here. >"More than ..." without saying how much more. As a mathematician he knows that quantification is anathema to mathematics. That is why he refuses to ever post any numbers. The self proclaimed PhD mathematician has not posted one calculation since I have been here this time. I would think by now it is clear this person has not the slightest concept of math. Perhaps it is simply a commentary upon our present university system much like the failures of gradeschool math education. > Anyway, here you have just offered up the proposal that the >Germans may have chosen Zyklon B over carbon monoxide because of >expense considerations and here you are saying something about "not >really crucial" in relation to the figures showing that 87.5% of the >product would have been un-necessary, wasted. Simple economic calculations are beyond him also. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:43 PDT 1996 Article: 56509 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:22:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 64 Message-ID: <4uh9v5$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ubqq0$ndv@news1.panix.com> <4ubti0$pkf@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ueq8l$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4ug8tv$fqv@access5.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:24:37 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:56509 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:439 On 9 Aug 1996 17:00:47 -0400, mstein@access5.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote: >In article <4ueq8l$s0c@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, >Matt Giwer wrote: >> As you may know, us skeptics NEVER expect any of the raw interviews or >>uneditted transcripts to be released. From what we have now, we know >>that the raw information is the death of the gassing stories. >> >> The raw statements are always agains the gassing stories. As you have >>grossly overstated, all her clan did was die of disease, she saw no >>burning unless other testimony is false. >> >> One would hope that the US government contribution had a string >>requireing full and immediate disclosure without editting in any >>manner. It will be a revisionist treasure trove. But of course, that >>will not be a condition. Holohuggers know better than to agree to >>that sort of thing. > Ho-hum. More unsupported (and false) assertions from the confessed >liar. >http://www.nizkor.org/ftp.cgi?people/g/giwer.matt/lies/lie-openly-admitted > If he wants me to stop bringing up his confession that he is a liar >every time he lies or makes unsupported assertions, there is a very simple >way for him to get me to stop. Do you suppose he can put his 163 IQ >points in gear and figure out what it is? > Followups set appropriately. >-- >Mike Stein The above represents the Absolute Truth. >POB 10420 Therefore it cannot possibly be the official >Arlington, VA 22210 position of my employer. ======== Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: No fuel needed From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT "MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a check at each one so that the people believed that they would get their things back ... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened, and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel." IMT XX - p. 494. More Nazi physics at work. I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one. On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could do this? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:44 PDT 1996 Article: 56510 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Moran's Scientific Breakthrough Saves World! (Re: for th Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:12:33 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 701 Message-ID: <4uk19o$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <31f614a6.1448866@news.pacificnet.net> <4tcs0j$l5n@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <31fa164d.938668@news.pacificnet.net> <4ti5f0$l3l@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4tp8ru$7ug@access1.digex.net> <4tpoj6$f07@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> <4tr6a2$ber@bell.maths.tcd.ie> <4u0doo$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:15:04 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:41:30 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <4u0doo$jba@dfw-ixnews3.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> On 1 Aug 1996 22:07:14 +0100, dbell@maths.tcd.ie (Derek Bell) wrote: >> >> >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> >> Do you really wish to continue to advertise the conspiratorital libel >> >>of Nizkor? >> >> > Threatening to sue again, Prince Myshkin? >> >> It that is truly a quesion, only a real idiot could inger it > ^^^^^ >Only a real idiot, Mr. Giwer? > >An idiot, say, like the one who wrote the above sentence? > >Please don't keep us in suspense, Mr. Giwer. Tell us what "inger" means. I >believe we all have a paupacy of Giwerese. > >Sara >-- >"It's always nice to see a prejudice overruled by a deeper prejudice." > John Sayles, _Lone Star_ Nizkor FTP file: camps/maidanek/maidanek.004 Archive/File: camps/maidanek maidanek.004 Last-Modified: 1994/10/31 In doing research on the Majdanek concentration camp I came across a reference to a document written by the committee of inquiry which was set up by the Soviets and Poles after the liberation of the Majdanek concentration camp to investigate German crimes at the camp. This is especially important considering that since Majdanek was one of the first camps to be liberated, it was captured relatively intact because the Germans did not have enough time to destroy it or cover up all their crimes. I tracked down only two copies of this document in English in the whole country(there are versions in Russian, Polish and French also), the one of which I used being at the Hoover War Library at Stanford University. Once I received a copy I decided it would be worth it to enter it into my computer, and once I started I decided to make it available to other researchers. I scanned in the text and corrected the mistakes made by the OCR software which was not so accurate because of the poor quality of the photocopy and of the original printing. This will hopefully be the first in a series of documents which I will be making available electronically. I am making this available through e-mail by request, in the various Holocaust archives, and in the original Macintosh document by request. If I ever get my WWW home page set up, it'll be available there too. If you have any questions about this text please feel free to e-mail me at philip@cs.brandeis.edu (which should be active at least through 1997). Feel free to distribute this but please make sure not to edit or change the text and to leave my intro in place. Thank you. Philip Trauring Format notes: I have tried as best I could to retain the format of the printed document. The original has pages which are about 4 inches wide and 6 inches tall. I separated the pages by dotted lines with the page number on the line preceding the page which it designates. I also, whenever possible, used accent marks and curly quotes to keep it exactly as I saw it on the page -- this means that if you received this document over e-mail without MIME encoding that you will see some strange characters in the middle of the document -- if your mail reader has MIME capabilities then I beleive everying should look okay. The version of this which is available as a Macintosh document also uses different sized type, bold text and centered text to make it match the styles and such from the original. ------------------------------------------------------------------ [Archival note: I have reformatted this document for the archives. The changes are solely in format; i.e. paragraphs now contain spaces between them, and the right margin has been reset to 70 from 75. Mr. Trauring's original format has been preserved in maidanek.005. knm] COMMUNIQUE OF THE POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY COMMISSION FOR INVESTIGATING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN FOREIGN LANGAUGES PUBLISHING HOUSE MOSCOW 1944 ------------------------------------------------------------------ CONTENTS page Preamble ...........................................1 I. The Majdanek Extermination Camp in Lublin........2 II. The Categories of Prisoners in the Camp.........3 III. The Tortures and Bloody Reprisals Practised in the Extermination Camp...................5 IV. The Wholesale Shooting of Prisoners of War and Civilians in the Camp...................9 V. Asphyxiation by Gas.............................13 VI. The German Butchers Tried to Cover up the Traces of their Heinous Crimes.............18 VII. The Hitlerites Robbed the Prisoners in the Camp of their Valuables and Belongings.....22 Printed in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics ------------------------------------------------------------pg 01-- COMMUNIQUE OF THE POLISH-SOVIET EXTRAORDINARY COMMISSION FOR INVESTIGATING THE CRIMES COMMITTED BY THE GERMANS IN THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN The Polish-Soviet Extraordinary Commission for Investigating the Crimes Committed by the Germans in Lublin, consisting of Mr. A. Witos, Vice-Chairman of the Polish Committee of National Liberation (Chairman of the Commission); the Rev. Dr. Kruszynski, Dean of the Lublin Catholic Cathedral; Dr. Somerstein, member of the Polish Committee of National Liberation; Mr. Christians, Barrister, President of the Lublin Red Cross Society; Professor Bialkowski of the Lublin Catholic University; Professor Poplawski of the Lublin University; Mr. Balcerzak, Procurator of the Lublin Appeal Court and Mr. Szczepanski, Preeident of the Lublin Circuit Court (representing Poland); and D. I. Kudryavtsev (Vice-Chairman of the Commission), Professor V. I. Prozorovsky and Professor N. I. Graschenkov, (representing the U.S.S.R.), investigated the crimes committed in Lublin. In the territory of Poland the Hitlerites set up an extensive network of concentration camps: in Lublin, Demblin, Oswiencim, Cholm, Sobibor, Biala Podlaska, Treblinka and other places. To these camps they transported for extermination hundreds of thousands of people from the occupied countries of Europe-France, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Greece, Denmark, Norway and others. In these camps the criminal Hitler government organized the massacre of whole sections of the population whom they regarded as undesirable, primarily the intellectuals of the ------------------------------------------------------------pg 02-- occupied countries of Europe, Soviet and Polish prisoners of war, and Jews. The facts discovered by the Commission in its investigation of the crimes committed by the Germans in Lublin far exceed in brutality and barbarity the monstrous crimes committed by the German fascist invaders of which international public opinion is already aware. I. THE MAJDANEK EXTERMINATION CAMP IN LUBLIN In Majdanek, Lublin, the Hitlerite butchers built a vast slaughter house, which they themselves called 'Vernichtungslager,' i.e., 'Extermination Camp.' The following two Germans, now prisoners of war, who served in this camp, testified: Rottenfuhrer SS Theodor Schollen: "This camp was called 'Vernichtungslager,' i.e 'Extermination Camp'-precisely because a colossal number of people were exterminated here." Kampfpolizist Heinz Stalbe: "The main purpose of this camp was to exterminate the largest possible number of people. That is why it was called 'Vernichtungslager' i.e., 'Extermination Camp.'" The-Majdanek Camp, situated two kilometres from Lublin, occupies an area of two hundred and seventy hectares. Its erection was commenced at the end of 1940. In the beginning of 1943 six fields of the camp were completed. In every field there were twenty-four barracks, making one hundred and forty-four barracks in all (not counting other buildings used as warehouses, workshops, etc.), each accommodating three hundred persons and over. The camp was surrounded by two rows of barbed wire. Furthermore, within the camp all the six fields were divided off by a whole network of barbed wire fences with a guard room at the entrance to each field. The barbed wire fences around these fields were charged with a high voltage electric current. All over the camp tall watch towers were erected in ------------------------------------------------------------pg 03-- which sentries armed with machine guns were constantly posted. The camp was strongly guarded by SS troops. In addition there were two hundred German police dogs, which played an important part in guarding the camp, and an auxiliary force of police called Kampfpolizei, which consisted of criminal elements. II. THE CATEGORIES OF PRISONERS IN THE CAMP The camp was capable of accommodating from twenty five to forty thousand prisoners at a time. At some periods as many as forty five thousand prisoners were confined there. The categories of prisoners confined in the camp varied at different times. The prisoners were systematically exterminated and fresh transports of prisoners arrived to take their place, so that for the overwhelming majority of persons sent here the camp was only a stage on the road to death. The camp contained prisoners of war of the former Polish army captured as far back 1939, Soviet prisoners of war, and civilians from Poland, France, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, Czechoslovakia, Greece, Yugoslavia, Denmark, Norway and other countries. This is established by: a) the discovery within the precincts of the camp of a large number of passports and other documents belonging to citizens of different countries of Europe who perished in this camp. For example: the passport of U.S.S.R. citizens Maria Timofeyovna Goryunova, Nikolui Frantsevich Mazurkevich, and others; documents belonging to Polish citizens Czeslaw Siedlecki, Wladyslaw Soniczny, Stanislaw Jankiewicz and others; documents belonging to French citizens Gabriel Labrouge, Emile Moltagne, Lucien Roi, Auguste Chirol, Andre Prinson, and others; documents belonging to Czechoslovak citizens Josef Hluce, Rudolf Feldinger and others; documents belonging to Italian citizens Gustav Muole, Guiseppe Music, Pio Tinozi, and others; documents belong- ------------------------------------------------------------pg 04-- ing to the Netherlands citizens Berthus van der Palm, Andertinus van der Irimi, Petrus Jansen and others; documents belonging to Yugoslav citizens Stjepan Stepanovic, Rano Zunic and others; documents belonging to Belgian citizens Leon Bazeo, Theophil van Hauseran, and others; documents belonging to Greek citizens Ean Zurene, and others, and also documents belonging to people of other nationalities; b) the register of deaths in the so-called "Lager-Lazarett," but actually the register of those exterminated, in which the names of a considerable number of dead persons of different nationalities are recorded. In March 1944 alone, of one thousand six hundred and fifty-four prisoners who died, six hundred and fifteen were Russians, two hundred and forty-seven Poles, one hundred and eight French, seventy-four Yugoslavs, whiIe the rest belonged to other nationalities inhabiting the countries of Western Europe; c) the evidence of a number of witnesses: former German prisoners of the camp aud prisoners of war who had served in the camp, and also the evidence of former prisoners in the camp: Le-du Corantin, a Frenchman; Tomasek, a Czech; Benen, a Netherlander, and others. The list of prisoners exterminated in the camp was constantly augmented by the names of Soviet prisoners of war, sections of the population of occupied countries of Europe, different sections of the population captured by the Gestapo in the streets, railway stations and in houses during the systemic raids and searches constantly carried out by the Hitlerites in Poland and other countries of Europe, and also by the names of Jews brought here from the ghettoes set up by the Gestapo in Poland and different towns in Western Europe. Among the prisoners there were numerous women, children and aged persons. Sometimes whole families were confined in the camp. The children were of different ages, including infants. Thus, the camp was a place for the wholesale extermination of different nationalities of Europe. ------------------------------------------------------------pg 05-- III. THE TORTURES AND BLOODY REPRISALS PRACTISED IN THE EXTERMINATION CAMP The regime in the "Extermination Camp" served the object of accomplishing tho wholesale extermination of the prisoners. The prisoners dragged out a miserable existence of starvation. The ordinary daily ration of a prisoner consisted of one issue per day of coffee made of roasted turnips, two issues per day of soup made of grass, and from one hundred and eighty to two hundred and seventy grams of bread, half adulterated with sawdust or chestnut flour. This led to the complete exhaustion of the prisoners, to the spread of tuberculosis amd other diseases and the wholesale dying out of the prisoners. For the slightest "offence" the prisoners were deprived of even this meagre food for several days at a stretch, which practically doomed them to death from starvation. Tomasek, a Czech and a former prisoner of the camp, stated before the Commission: "The people starved all the time. The wholesale exhaustion of the prisoners and death from exbaustion were observed. The prisoners ate offal, cats and dogs. Most of the prisoners looked like walking skeletons covered with skin, or were unaturally bloated due to swelling resulting from starvation." Corporal Reznik of the Polish Army and former prisoner of the camp stated: "I noticed that the Russian prisoners of war were hardly fed at all. They were reduced to an extreme state of exhaustion. Their bodies swelled, and they were not even able to talk. They died in large numbers." Starvation was one of the important elements of the general system of extermination that prevailed in the camp. The working day started at 4 a.m. The Germans burst into the barracks and roused the people with whips. The roll was called, at which all, sound and sick alike, had to be present. Those who had died in the night had to be taken out to the ------------------------------------------------------------pg 06-- barrack square by those who had slept next to them to be checked. The roll-call lasted two hours and more, and was accompanied by the beating and tormenting of the prisoners. If a prisoner swooned and was unable to answer when his name was called, he was registered as dead and killed with clubs. At 6 a.m. the prisoners were taken out to work. The work was exceptionally heavy and exhausting. It was accompanied by severe beating, torment and murder. The gangs of prisoners returning for their so-called dinner at 11 a.m., carried with them their fellow-prisoners who had been beaten, mutilated or killed. During the evening roll-call the SS men on duty read the names of those prisoners who had worked "badly," and these were tied to a form and flogged with whips, rods or birches. The number of strokes inflicted ranged from twenty five and over. Often, prisoners were flogged to death. Zelent, Docent of the Warsaw University, formerly a prisoner of the camp, stated: "I knew Barrister Nosek, from Radom, who was given one hundred strokes, from which he died three days later." In the case of intellectuals and prominent persons among the prisoners, particularly refined methods of torture were adopted. The Germans compelled Professor Michalowicz, age seventy-two, the famous expert on infantile diseases, Professor Pomirowski, age sixty, of the Warsaw Politechnical Institute, Wazowicz, age seventy-five, a member of the Polish Supreme Court, and many others, to perform the most arduous work, and tormented them in every possible way. Tadeusz Budzyn, M. Sc. Chem., a Pole, and formerly a prisoner at the camp stated: "The Germans compelled a large group of professors, physicians, engineers and other specialists, numbering one thousand two hundred in all, who came from Greece, to carry heavy stones from one place to another, a task which was far beyond their strength. The scientists who dropped from exhaustion as a result of this heavy labour were beaten ------------------------------------------------------------pg 07-- to death by thc SS men. Owing to the system of starvation, exhausting labour, beating and murder, the entire group of Greek scientists was exterminated in the course of five weeks." The methods of torturing and tormenting prisoners varied to an extraordiuary degree. Many of them bore the character of alleged "jokes," which very often ended in the death of the prisoners upon whom they were played. Among these may be cited the mock shooting of a prisoner while simultaneously stunning him by a blow on the head with a plank or other blunt instrument, and the mock drowning of prisoners in the pool at the camp, which often ended in the actual drowning of the victims. Among the German butchers in the camp some specialized in particular methods of torture and murder. They killed their victims by striking them with a club across the back of the neck, kicking them in the stomach or in the groin, etc, The SS torturers drowned their victims in the filthy water that flowed from the bathhouse into a shallow ditch. The victim's head was forced into this filthy water and kept there with the jackboot of the SS man until he expired. The favourite method of the Hitlerite SS men was to hang their victims by their arms, which were tied behind their backs. Le-du Corantin, a Frenchman, who had suffered this form of punishment, stated that when thus suspended the victim soon lost consciousness. When that happencd the victim was lowered, but was hung up again as soon us he recovered consciousness. This was repeatcd over and over again. For the slightest offence, especially on suspicion of attempting to escape, the German fiends hanged prisoners in the camp. In the middle of every field there was a post with a cross-tree fixed to it about two metres high on which people were hanged. "From my barrack," said the witness Domashev, a Soviet prisoner of war who was confined in this camp, "I saw people hanged on this post in the middle of the field." ------------------------------------------------------------pg 08-- Near the laundry, in the space between fields No. 1 and No. 2, there was a special barrack with beams stretching from one end to another, from which people were hanged in whole groups. Female prisoners in the camp were subjected to no less torment and torture: the same methods of roll-call, exhausting labour, beating and torment. The chief woman overseer Erich, of the SS, and the women overseers Braunstein, Anni Devid, Weber, Knobliek, Ellert and Redli, were distinguished for their cruelty. The commission has established numerous cases of absolutely unprecedented cruelties on the part of the German fiends in the camp. At a plenary session of the Commission, the German Kampfpolizist, Heinz Stalbe stated that he saw the chief of the crematorium, Oberscharfuhrer Munsfeld, tie a Polish womam hand and foot and throw her alive into the furnace. Witnesses Jelinski and Olech, who were employed in the camp, also testified to the burning of people alive in the crematorium furnaces.."A child was torn from a mother's breast and before her eyes was dashed against the wall of the barrack and killed," stated the witness Atrokhov. The witness Edward Baran stated: "I myself saw little children torn away from their mothers and killed before their eyes: the child was held by one leg, the other was kept down by the foot and the child was thus torn in two." The Deputy Chief of the camp, Obersturmfuhrer SS, Tumann, was notorious for his exceptional sadism. He forced groups of prisoners to stand in a row on thier knees and killed them by striking them on the head with a club; he set police dogs on the prisoners; he took a most active part in all the punishments and killing of prisoners. Thus, starvation, exhausting labour, torment, torture and murder, accompanied by unprecedented sadism, were resorted to in the wholesale slaughter of prisoners in this camp. ------------------------------------------------------------pg 09-- IV. THE WHOLESALE SHOOTING OF PRISONERS OF WAR AND CIVILIANS IN THE CAMP The wholesale extermination of the civilian population of European countries, including Poland and the occupied regions of the U.S.S.R., was the deliberate policy of Hitler Germany, which logically followed >from her plan to enslave and exterminate the progressive and active part of the Slavonic peoples. The erection in enslaved Poland of camps for the wholesale extermination of European peoples and prisoners of war was prompted by the desire of the Hitlerite ruling clique to cover up and conceal their crimes in every possible way. These camps, including the Majdanek "Extermination Camp," were also places for the complete extermination of tho Jewish population. One of the methods of exterminating vast masses of people whom Hitler Germany regarded as undesirable was wholesale shooting, which was extensively practised in the Lublin "Extermination Camp." The bloody history of this camp commences with the wholesale shooting of Soviet prisoners of war, which the SS men carried out in November-December 1941. Of a contingent of over two thousand Soviet prisoners of war, only eighty survived; all the rest were shot, except for a small group who were tortured to death. In the period from January to April 1942 fresh contingents of Soviet prisoners of war arrived in the canmp and were shot. Jan Niedzialek, a Pole, a hired waggon driver at the camp, stated: "In the winter of 1942 the Germans exterminated about five thousand Russian prisoners of war in the following way: the prisoners were carted in motor trucks from their barracks to pits in the old quarry and there they were shot." Prisoners of war of the former Polish army, captured as far back as 1939 and confined in different camps in Germany ------------------------------------------------------------pg 10-- were already in 1940 collected iu the camp in Lipovaya Street in Lublin and soon after transferred in groups to the Majdanek "Extermination Camp" where they met with the same fate: systematic torment, killing, wholesale shooting, hanging, etc. The witness Reznik stated the following: "In January 1941, about four thousand of us Jewish prisoners of war were loaded into railway trucks and sent eastward. . . . We were brought to Lublin, told to get out of the train and handed over to SS men. Approximately in September or October 1942, they decided to leave in the camp in No. 7 Lipovaya Street only those prisoners who had factory qualifications and were needed by the city. All the rest, including myself, were sent to the Majdanek Camp. We all knew perfectly well that to be sent to the Majdanek Camp meant death." Of this contingent of four thousand prisoners of war only a few individuals, who succeeded in escaping from their work outside of the camp, survived. In the summer of 1943, three hundred Soviet officers were brought to the Majdanek Camp. Among them were two colonels and four majors. All the rest were captains and senior lieutenants. All the aforesaid officers were shot in the Camp. During the whole of 1942, the wholesale shooting of prisoners in the camp, as well as of inhabitants brought in from outside, was carried on. Tadeusz Drabik, a Pole, inhabitant of the village of Krembeck (eight kilometres from Lublin), one day saw the SS men bring up eighty-eight truck loads of people of different nationalities and ages-men, women and children. These people were taken to the Krembecki Woods were made to alight from the trucks, were stripped of all their clothing and valuables and then shot on the edge of pits which had been dug beforehand. During 1942 the Germans systematically carried out wholesale shooting in the Krembecki Woods. ------------------------------------------------------------pg 11-- In the spring of 1942, six thousand persons arrived at the camp in one contingent; all were shot in the course of two days. On November 3, 1943, eighteen thousand four hundred persons were shot in the camp. Of these eight thousand four hundred were camp prisoners and ten thousand were people who had been brought here from the city and from other camps. Three days before this wholesale shooting, large trenches were dug within the precincts of the camp, behind the crematorium. The shooting began in the morning and ended late at night. The people were stripped naked. The SS men led them to the trenches in groups of fifty and one hundred, compelled them to lie face downwards in the bottom of the trench and shot them with automatic rifles. On top of the corpses another row of living persons was laid and these were also shot. This went on until the trench was filled. The corpses were then covered with a thin layer of earth. Two or three days later the bodies were disinterred and burnt in the crematorium and on bonfires. In order to drown the shrieks of the victims during the shooting, and also the sound of the firing, the Germans installed loudspeakers near the crematorium and in different parts of the camp, and all day long these loudspeakers blared forth jazz music. This wholesale shooting became widely known among the inhabitants of Lublin. SS man Hermann Vogel, who served at the camp, stated: "That day, in addition - to the people who were brought from the city, eight thousand four hundred persons were taken from the Lublin Camp and shot. I, know the exact figure because next day official information concerning the extermination of eight thousand four hundred persons was sent to the storehouse where I worked, as we had to check their clothing." Stanislawski, a Polish prisoner who worked in the camp office, stated the following concerning the shooting on November 3, 1943: ------------------------------------------------------------pg 12-- "The Germans called this shooting 'Sonderbehandlung' (special treatment), and it was under this heading that the report was sent to Berlin. This report contained the following statement-I quote literally: 'The difference between the number of prisoners in the camp in the morning and that of the evening arose as the result of the special extermination of eighteen thousand persons.'" The inhabitants of the village of Dziesiata were frequent witnesses of wholesale shooting, including those carried out in 1944. >From March to July 22 inclusive, the Gestapo brought up a large number of Polish inhabitants, men, women and children, in motor trucks and carts. They were taken to the crematorium, near which they were stripped naked and then shot in the trenches. "There were days," stated the witness Niedzialek, who witnessed these wholesale shootings of Polish inhabitants, "when from two-hundred to three hundred and more persons were shot." The Soviet prisoner of war Kanunnikov witnessed the shooting in July 1943 of forty women with little children in field No. 1. Early in the morning the bodies of thc victims were taken to the crematorium to be burnt." In the latter half of May 1943, the SS men brought to the Krembecki Woods two lorries drawn by a tractor and a motor truck, all loaded with the dead bodies of Polish children. The witness Gangol stated: "I remember another glaring case which I personally witnessed, and which I fully confirm today: in the latter half of May 1943 the SS men brought to the Krembecki Woods two lorries drawn by a tractor and a motor truck, all loaded exclusively with Polish children. They were entirely naked. All the bodies of these children were piled up in stacks in the woods and burnt." The witness Krasovskaya informed the Commission of a case of the shooting, in April 1943, of three hundred women brought from Greece. ------------------------------------------------------------pg 13-- The aforementioned cases of wholesale shooting represent only a small proportion of the cases collected by the commision. A Committee of Medical Experts under the chairmanship of Professor Szyling-Syngalewicz, Professor of Medical Jurisprudence at the Lublin Catholic University, and consisting of Dr. Rupniewski, Head Doctor of the Lublin City Administration; Lieutenant Colonel of the Army Medical Service Szkarabski, Medical Expert of a Front; Lieutenant Colonel of the Army Medical Service Krajewski, Dr. M. Sc., Chief Pathologist and Anatomist of a Front; Colonel Blochin of the Army Medical Service, Chief Toxicologist of a Front, and Captain Grafinska, Medical Expert of the First Polish Army, found as follows: "The examination of four hundred and sixty-seven corpses and two hundred and sixty-six skulls revealed traces of firearm wounds to the number of three hundred and forty two, indicating that it was a wide practice in the camp to sho[o]t prisoners, mainly in the back of the head, at close range, with weapons of 0.9 cm. calibre." Thus, the evidence of numerous witnesses as well as other proof (the exhumations carried out by the Committee of Medical Experts) prove that throughout the period of the existence of the Lublin Camp, the Germans carried out the wholesale shooting of prisoners, men, women and children, of different nationalities, some of whom were shot in the Krembecki Woods situated eight kilometres >from Majdanek. V. ASPHYXIATION BY GAS One of the most widespread methods of exterminating people resorted to in the Majdanck Camp was asphyxiation by gas. The Committee of Technical and Chemical Experts under the Chairmanship of Kelles-Krause, Engineer-Architect of the City of Lublin, and consisting of Engineer Major ------------------------------------------------------------pg 14-- Telaner, Docent; Grigoriev, B.M.E.; and Pelkis, B.M.E., found that the chambers erected within the precincts of tbe camp were mainly utilized for the purpose of the wholesale extermination of people. There were six such chambers in all. Some of them were adapted to the purpose of putting people to death by means of carbon monoxide; the others were adapted to the purpose of putting people to death with the aid of a poisonous chemical substance known as "Cyklon." Within the precincts of the camp were found five hundred and thirty-five canisters containing the substance "Cyklon B," and several containers with carbon monoxide. The chemical analysis revealed the following: "The contents of the canisters were tested for the presence of prussic acid by the reaction of the formation of Prussian blue with the aid of benzidino-acinate indicator paper and picric sodium. Samples were taken from eighteen canisters and forty-eight-separate reactions were produced. All the tests gave positive results showing the presence of prussic acid with the aforesaid reagents. . . . Thus, the contents of the canisters that were examined consist of the substance 'Cyklon B' which is a specially prepared kieselghur in the form of granules up to one cm., impregnated with liquid stabilized prussic acid. The contents of the canisters found in large numbers in the camp bearing the label 'Cyklon' are identical with 'Cyklon-B'. . .. . Samples of the gas taken from the containers were tested for carbon monoxide with the aid of reactions to iodinc pentoxide and From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 11:33:45 PDT 1996 Article: 56513 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!hunter.premier.net!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: The Department Of Defense Wants To Censor Revisionism Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 04:27:17 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 19 Message-ID: <4ujnjd$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u72nf$46t@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ue4vc$ati@news.enter.net> <4uf0ea$kno@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 11:29:33 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 20:36:05 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >[To yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken)] ># When you ask for my daughter's number you are ready ># for the grave. >It's interesting to see how protective and caring (apparently, >at least), this person is towards his own family, while being >such a sadist wherever other people are considered. Alec may remember enough to tell yuou why I am laughing at you folks. Then again, you folks may be bright enough to figure it out for yourselfes, but I doubt it. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 12:14:03 PDT 1996 Article: 56523 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Creationist/exterminationist similarities Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:49:32 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 34 Message-ID: <4uk3el$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4ueha9$4g7@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <4ufq6g$k2c@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4uhj5k$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <320CD3E3.36B1@unb.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:51:49 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 15:24:35 -0300, Keith Morrison wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >Sorry, Matt--you're the creationist here. You're the one arguing >> >a fringe position, not even regarded as worthy of debate by experts >> >in the field. >> >> So did Wegner. So what? >The only problem is that Wegner had evidence. You got zippo, nada and >even less. What cooked Wegner's goose at the time was the mechanism >he proposed which geologists knew wouldn't work, *not* that continents >never moved. >Do try and stick to things you understand. Wegner, as you know, had only the shape of the continents on his side. It would be good if you would learn what you are talking about some day. He had NO mechanism for motion. That mechanism did not come unil the mid-60s with the mid-Atlantic ridge being defined. Sorry, nerfbrain, I have forgotten more about this than any riverine fluid flow "expert" will ever know. Give it up. You have not the slighest idea what is going on in the first place. But of course you had to jump in claiming you knew what you were talking about. What did you do really, take a community college course at one time? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 12:14:05 PDT 1996 Article: 56524 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Shhh! Don't mention it [Technical aspects of the gassings] Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:53:29 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 25 Message-ID: <4uk3m2$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <320b3e8f.548700@news.pacificnet.net> <4ugagk$dcp@Networking.Stanford.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:55:46 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 9 Aug 1996 14:27:48 -0700, rich@c2.org (Rich Graves) wrote: >tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) writes: >> Do your own poll. Ask people if they can identify the source and >>type of gas(es) said to have been used during the Holocaust. >> >> When the answer comes up, 'I don't know', ask them why they >>don't. Let them think about that for a while. >Are you advocating further education on the technical aspects of the >Holocaust now? It was more than fifty years ago, you know; what would be >the point? I think the general nonspecialist understanding of the fact >that Hitler's Nazi regime murdered some 10-12 million people, some 5-6 >million of whom were Jews targeted for extermination solely on the basis >of being Jews, is sufficent. Excuse me. But were the homosexuals, gypsies, and Slavs not also targeted solely on the basis of being homosexuals, gypsies and Slavs? If not, why are you making a false distinction? Once you admit race as a criteria then ALL were exterminated based upon what they were and Jews were nothing in particular but at worst, available. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 12:14:05 PDT 1996 Article: 56531 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!news.umbc.edu!haven.umd.edu!cs.umd.edu!ra.nrl.navy.mil!news.math.psu.edu!chi-news.cic.net!newspump.sol.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: the coward McVay Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:31:14 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 2 Message-ID: <4uk5sq$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:33:30 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 12:14:06 PDT 1996 Article: 56532 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism,alt.bonehead.matt-giwer Subject: Re: Nizkor: promoter of lies Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 07:27:34 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 59 Message-ID: <4uhdp9$7hq@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tcovo$s2r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <4u9oam$8tv@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4uae6h$g8a@access5.digex.net> <4ubde4$1i4@dfw-ixnews9.ix.netcom.com> <320A16B7.1E3A@gryn.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl7-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 2:29:45 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.revisionism:56532 alt.bonehead.matt-giwer:440 On Thu, 08 Aug 1996 12:32:55 -0400, Alec Grynspan wrote: >Matt Giwer wrote: >> >> >> Freedom of speech violations? >> >> > I suggest that you be polite. Very polite. Also, keep your hands in >> >sight and don't make any sudden moves. >> >> Right. Thanks a lot. >Don't get too cocky, Matt. >Seriously! What would it matter at this point? On the presumption that now three people claim to have been questioned by everything from the FBI to federal prosecutors. I would say my fate is either sealed or they have actually discovered this is a flame conference. And now we have an "attorney" who is going to make a call about my response to a request for my daughter's address. You may remember enough about our conversations to get a chuckle out of that one. You do remember my daughter, don't you? >> >> I presume they had a great chuckle over McVay's "complaint." >> >> > Does the fact that a Justice Department attorney was in my home >> >recently asking me about you change your presumption any? >> >> It was the FBI last time you told the story. >So? >Matt, bad news - the FBI investigates, but the Justice Department would >be the ones ascertaining whether to go ahead with actually pressing >charges. Prosecutors invite you to their office. They do not go out visiting people. >It's an election year, Matt. And I will make Janet Reno look real good and Clinton proud. It will be front page headlines across the country. I will be interviewed by CNN. I can make Larry King kiss me. I can see it now, Flt 800 and the Olympics bombing pushed right out of the news. It will be a surefire re-election getter. >I'm not expecting you to come to a valid conclusion - but try, anyway. And then there are the book sales ... and the movie rights. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 12:14:07 PDT 1996 Article: 56536 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!portc01.blue.aol.com!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: auschwitz:myths and facts Date: Sat, 10 Aug 1996 06:30:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 45 Message-ID: <4uhad7$si7@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u5keo$lqu@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4uer5l$ndi@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl1-07.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 1:32:07 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 17:58:24 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: ># dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >## Listen, you senile piece of dreck. If you're accusing me >## of posting something, you better have the proof. ># Is that another threat? >This is not a threat, and I've never made any threats >against anyone. >It's just a statement: you're a lying piece of trash who >accuses people of posting things they never posted. ======== Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: No fuel needed From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT "MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a check at each one so that the people believed that they would get their things back ... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened, and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel." IMT XX - p. 494. More Nazi physics at work. I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one. On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could do this? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 15:52:47 PDT 1996 Article: 56560 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: 'Finally, new and larger gas chambers were built' Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:19:26 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 174 Message-ID: <4uk56r$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:21:47 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 9 Aug 1996 22:37:44 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: >Willi Mentz testifies about his days in Treblinka >[Quoted in 'The Good Old Days' - E. Klee, W. Dressen, V. Riess, The >Free Press, NY, 1988., p. 245-247] >----------------------------------------------------------------------- >When I came to Treblinka the camp commandant was a doctor named Dr. Eberl. >He was very ambitious. It was said that he ordered more transports >than could be "processed" in the camp. That meant that trains had to >wait outside the camp because the occupants of the previous transport >had not yet all been killed. At the time it was very hot and as a >result of the long wait inside the transport trains in the intense >heat many people died. At the time whole mountains of bodies lay on >the platform. The Hauptsturmfuehrer Christian Wirth came to Treblinka >and kicked up a terrific row. And then one day Dr. Eberl was no >longer there... >For about two months I worked in the upper section of the camp and >then after Eberl had gone everything in the camp was reorganized. The >two parts of the camp were separated by barbed wire fences. Pine >branches were used so that you could not see through the fences. The >same thing was done along the route from the "transfer" area to the >gas chambers... >Finally, new and larger gas chambers were built. I think that there >were now five or six larger gas chambers. I cannot say exactly how >many people these large gas chambers held. If the small gas chambers >could hold 80-100 people, the large ones could probably hold twice >that number... >Following the arrival of a transport, six to eight cars would be >shunted into the camp, coming to a halt at the platform there. The >commandant, his deputy Franz, Kuettner and Stadie or Maetzig would be >here waiting as the transport came in. Further SS members were also >present to supervise the unloading: for example, Genz and Belitz had >to make absolutely sure that there was no one left in the car after >the occupants had been ordered to get out. >When the Jews had got off, Stadie or Maetzig would have a short word >with them. They were told something to the effect that they were a >resettlement transport, that they would be given a bath and that they >would receive new clothes. They were also instructed to maintain quiet >and discipline. They would continue their journey the following day. >Then the transports were taken off to the so-called "transfer" area. >The women had to undress in huts and the men out in the open. The >women were than led through a passageway, known as the "tube", to the >gas chambers. On the way they had to pass a hut where they had to hand >in their jewellery and valuables.. >-- >Lies written in ink can never disguise facts written in blood. >-Lu Xun. The numbr of the vanished

The number of the vanished

      The problem is that every person recorded to have been sent to a camp is accounted for to the limits of record keeping errors. Many died of disease, accident, old age and all the rest but none are recorded to have died of gassing. And, given the end when the system broke down and starvation took over and record keeping was not possible, the numbers are still about right.
      To assign people to death from gassing in these camps it is necessary to arbitrarily and without justification assign some 2.5 to 3 million people from the untraceable category to the camps category without any claim of tracing them. It is a completely capricious procedure.
      Thus they have to claim that they can divine from departure and arrival figures of people who were shipped by train, the number that disappeared and that they were gassed. This is quite an interesting claim but as they have a preconceived conclusion, anyting will support it.
      But there are alternate explanations. For example, the time of greatest gassing at Auschwitz is cited to be in the summer of 1944. That is because the greatest number of departures but no recorded arrivals occurred at that time.
      On face value, that would appear damning. But something is being overlooked. That is that the allies were destroying anything and everything that moved because they had air superiority and trains with civilians were no exception. It might have been nice to make an exception but there was no way to tell from the air.
      That only covers the end of the war. The earlier phase of disappearances was in 1941. That was when Russia was permitting people to escape through the lines to refuge in Russia. Almost.
      Russia did a little bit of filtering in the refuge matter. Anyone, man or woman, who was capable of handling a rifle was given one, turned around and pointed towards the advancing Germans. This was a useless gesture at that time in the war. They died on the battlefield. If their names were even recorded, they are still hidden some place in the Russian archives.
      These two sources of the vanished 31 million do not account for a larger and nonrepresentative fraction of Jews that disappeared. For that there are several possibilities. I am not claiming these are explanations but rather that they did occur and need to be considered cumulatively.
      First, Jews had a reason to run from the Germans due to the known internment in concentration camp policy. Thus they would be most likely to run into the hands of the Russians, be given a rifle and turned around to face the Panzer Divisions.
      Second, those that did not run often put their children in orphanages (run by Christians just like the Nazis) and their children were reported, raised and such as Christian, not Jewish and never reappeared on the roles of Jewish population.
      Third, given the Russian policy, women with children were not suitable to be given a rifle they continue into Russia. Did they return? Did they marry? Convert?
      In line with the third, did Russia every keep records by religion or ethinicity? Why would an atheist society that did not officially believe in Mendelevian genetics do so? Jews would vanish without a trace into such a society just like Jewish immigrants vanish without a trace into the US as the US does not keep records by religion. Like it or not, Silberstein and Demjanjuk are identical save for country of origin in the US.
      Fourth, how many Jews vanished into the United States? The US keeps no records by religion on immigrants. So how many vanished into the US?
      Although Latin America appears to get a lot of credit for harboring ex-Nazis, in fact the countries have large German communities, not Christian-German, German. How many Jews "vanished" to Latin America?
      But this begs the question of where the 31 million went. Russia does not have the slighest idea where 15 million of its people went. The Jewish "losses" pale in comparison but are at the same time quite explainable.
      And given the easily explainable reasons for "transported but did not arrive" it is clear that the allies, even at this late date and in the interests of accuracy, do not want to admit what clearly happened. Early in the war, the Russians used the escaped as cannon fodder against the Germans and towards the end all the Allies were destroying people in the transport trains.
      It is much easier to leave it all to the "evil Nazis" than to resurrect the matter this generation. It will take at least another twenty years to face this one directly. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 15:52:48 PDT 1996 Article: 56566 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!caen!msunews!agate!newsgate.duke.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsfeed.pitt.edu!taurus.bv.sgi.net!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in3.uu.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Here's a novel idea Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 07:46:37 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 53 Message-ID: <4u9ho3$34q@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> References: <31FFDC56.2D6E@rio.com> <4u6lij$qf@access5.digex.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl10-13.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 2:48:19 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Tue, 6 Aug 1996 22:58:02 GMT, ray@netcom.com (Ray Fischer) wrote: >Michael P. Stein wrote: >> Ray Fischer wrote: >>>Chuck Ferree wrote: >>>>What exactly is your agenda? Are you a true denier of the Holocaust? >>>>Are you just another anti-Semite? Are you really interest in the >>>>truth, or do you just like to take good people on and call them names? >>> >>>Ah yes, the inevitable appearing of the thought-police, here to make >>>sure that I accept, preferably without question, the existance of the >>>holocaust as described by the Keepers of the Real Truth. >> >>Since you questioned someone else's motives, it is only fair to >>question yours. Your evasion is noted. >My motive is simply to determine the truth. >>>Piss off. >> >> Why don't you do something really unique? State your theory of what >>happened in Auschwitz, Treblinka, Belzec, Sobibor, and occupied Russia >>during WWII. >And be called an anti-semite if I dare to deviate one smidge from the >Approved Truth? No thank you. >You have learned nothing when Correctness and Acceptance are >more important than the search for truth. It is more acceptance than correctness. Here they all are with feelings of persecution and they are taking after those they suppose persecute them. From birth they have been indoctrinated with "you are jewish, you are persecuted" and it is difficult for them to cast off that foolishness. Were any of them ever persecuted? Other than being gassed six times that is. Of course not. The latest has been an idiot "for the children" plea claiming that children are coming home beat up because they were Jewish. People claiming that were never children and NEVER verified the incident. The kid breaks the parents' rule against fighting, comes home with signs of being in a fight, and gives the parents a story he knows they will believe because they are suckers. It is quite amusing these people have not grown up yet and will not admit they did the same thing as kids. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 15:52:48 PDT 1996 Article: 56567 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: gassing evidence bears interest Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 02:56:18 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 62 Message-ID: <4uji8q$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u3gqb$f9d@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ueu6p$kcd@sjx-ixn3.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sat Aug 10 9:58:34 PM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Fri, 09 Aug 1996 16:00:09 -0800, mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine) wrote: >In article , dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) >wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> # dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) writes: >> >> ## the ventilation grills of Krema III were tested in >> ## 1945 and cyanide compounds were discovered on them. >> >> # It is interesting that you felt compelled to make that up. >> >> I didn't make it up. I am not a worthless liar like you. >> >> # Perhaps you can point to Nizkor or any other site that >> # supports it? >> >> It's reported in Pressac's book, with, as I recall, a >> photograph of the ventilation grills. I don't have the >> book handy; perhaps someone can check. If not, I will >> post the page number when I return home, in about 3 weeks. >Document 54; _Technique_, p.233. >The caption to the photo reads: >"Rear view of one of the 145 galvenized plates, perforated by hand, which >were set into and nailed to the wooden fresh air ducts in the upper part >of Leichenkeller 1 of Krematorien II and III, now kept in PMO <> >Block 25. Toxicological analyses were carried out in 1945 by the Cracow >Forensic Institute (7 Copernicus Street) on 4 complete plates and 2 >damaged ventilation orifices found in the ruins of Kremtorium II. After >scraping the white substance that covered these objects back to the metal, >7.2 grammes of scrapings were collected and subjected to two qualitative >analyses, which established the presence of cyanide compounds. The report, >signed by Dr. Jan Z Robel, was written on 15th December 1945 and >transmitted to the Examining Judge, Jan Sehn." As I was just posting about holohuggers disagreeing as to what the pillars were like it is good to see that you provide an example. Nizkor has a drawing of one of them made of wire mesh. On the other hand Pressac appears to be implying they were made out of galvanized iron. And if not that, suddendly the fresh air input was, for no reason other than to restrict the air flow, by adding a wooden framework and performated plate ductwork. As for the report, it is interesting for its lack of completeness that the "white substance" is not identified. It also fails the claim for the more recent test in being a single data point and ignoring the desire to fumigate a morgue. Remembering of course that it worked quite well on rats it would be surprising if cyanide compounds were not found. Also note that report is qualitative, not quantitative. Qualitatively, one fumigation could account for it. It would be interesting to have the original study posted. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 15:52:49 PDT 1996 Article: 56582 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!news.ironhorse.com!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Giwer Reaches new Heights Of Insanity (Re: the Zyklon B Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 07:31:49 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 76 Message-ID: <4uk2df$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4uegil$cra@dfw-ixnews6.ix.netcom.com> <4uhhvo$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 2:34:07 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 20:06:06 GMT, dkeren@world.std.com (Daniel Keren) wrote: > Summary: Giwer reflects on the strength of the SS-men, > and reaches some amazing conclusions > ----------------------------------------------------- >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: ># I have no idea what you are talking about. Both an ># exponential and a polynomial curve fit are given. >Extrapolated from one single (erroneous) data point. >Didn't Rudolph himself agree in his e-mail to "ehrlich" >that his conclusions were false? ># As everyone should know, any curve can be represented by ># any other curve with only quality of fit being of interest. >I have a great deal of interest in fitting data. Perhaps >you can explain what you wrote above. It has no mathematical >meaning whatsoever. If you do not understand the r value of a curve fit then you do not understand a thing. You have never heard of the deviance of the data >from the chosen curve fit? Do you wish to continue with your claim? ># If there is MORE accurate information in that paper, POST ># THE GRAPH given in that paper. Post the paper at least. >The paper is posted on the web for about 2 months now, as >you know well. The most relevant and important piece of >information there is that, even at very low temp., the >whole HCN outgassed in "an hour, or at most two". And this >is from 1941, so we're talking about WW2 era Zyklon, not >some other product manufactured 50 years later. You said it was BETTER. Post the graph. ># Go take another look at it and note the amount released in ># the 10-15 minute time frame which is the most common ># description of the time frame. THEN calculate backwards ># to find the amount that had to be dumped in to achieve ># lethality in that time frame. ># And then, when you discover that two people could not carry ># enough to do it, >This is somewhat sad. Giwer, you're insane. From a PhD in math who never heard of the rms "r"esidual values of deviation from the chosen curve fit model, I am hardly impressed. >Let's take a look at the Peters-Rasch paper (page 136). >The second experiment they're discussing deals with a place >with a volume of 4,311 cubic meters. That's more than 10 >times the volume of the largest gas chambers. >They used 43.2 Kg. But, remember, this is for a room more >than 10 times larger than the gas chambers, plus you're >talking about delousing, which requires a far higher >concentration than homicidal gassing. So you're talking >about 4 Kg or so. The SS-men could carry that up the >ladder, I assume. So where is what you were challenged to present? >Get a grip. You're going down the tubes. If you have a PhD in math you are going down for your sponsor. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 15:52:50 PDT 1996 Article: 56585 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!op.net!en.com!in-news.erinet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!nntp04.primenet.com!news.shkoo.com!nntp.primenet.com!news.cais.net!hunter.premier.net!news1.erols.com!howland.erols.net!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: All Roads Lead to Zero Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:12:33 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 45 Message-ID: <4uk4pr$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: <320b3feb.896046@news.pacificnet.net> <4uftvj$6k7@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <320c931b.2220288@news.pacificnet.net> <4uievs$5rm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <320cd0fd.18061701@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:14:51 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 18:14:33 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >syegul@ix.netcom.com (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote: >>tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >> >>>syegul@ix.netcom.com (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote: >>>>Next thing you'll be telling me JFK shot himself. >> >>> Actually I have done some investigation on that. I have read a >>>few books, seen a couple of films, and heard peoples views on the >>>conspiracy theories. I have also visited Dallas and spent a day in the >>>area. In spite of all the books, the films and opinions, I think Lee >>>Harvey Oswald did it. Whether there was a conspiracy behind him, I >>>don't know. >> >>[Actually, I'm sure LHO was the man himself -- just trying to punch up the >>absurdity of what I was being confronted with here. Of *course* JFK didn't >>shoot himself. But then again, maybe Oliver Stone would like to make a >>movie about *that* as well?...] > According to Oliver Stone, the likely culprits were, the CIA, the >FBI, the Sicilian Mafia, the Corsican Mafia, the corporate world in >cahoots with Lyndon Johnson and/or Fidel Castro. I have no firm opinion upon who killed who or why but I have an opinion are a person who has shot a similar design rifle many times. If LHO did the killing, the third was a lucky shot, period, end of discussion. I invite anyone to duplicate the feat with one of those old Mauser copies. And it is harder with a scope than without as it takes longer to sight in. Iron sights are faster and the FBI said the scope was misaligned. BTW: The Carcano is a legal non-gun if you find one an want to walk out with it. It should cost no more than $100 over the counter. It all has to be put down to the accident that changed the world. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 17:24:37 PDT 1996 Article: 56610 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.fan.ernst-zundel,alt.revisionism Subject: Re: 960810: One student's impression of EZ Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:26:30 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 21 Message-ID: <4uk5k0$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:28:48 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.fan.ernst-zundel:2494 alt.revisionism:56610 On Sat, 10 Aug 1996 03:27:56 -0700, zundel-repost@alpha.c2.org (E. Zundel Repost) wrote: >The Zundelgrams are posted to alt.fan.ernst-zundel and alt.revisionism >daily, unedited. The opinions expressed do not represent the views of the >poster, who is not the author. See X-Headers for relevant URLs. A good >place to start is http://www.nizkor.org/features/ or, if you're in Europe, >ftp://nizkor.iam.uni-bonn.de/pub/nizkor/ >------------ BEGIN ZUNDELGRAM MESSAGE ------------ >Good Morning from the Zundelsite: >One of my Zundelsite missions is to translate the man behind the red hot >question mark: "Did Six Million Really Die?" that has already cost a >kingdom on both sides, and no end yet in sight. You would do better to deal with, "Did 12 million really die?" (And if so, when, where and how.) From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 17:24:38 PDT 1996 Article: 56616 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Nizkor: promoter of lies Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 18:08:44 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 29 Message-ID: <4ul7nr$p2k@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4uk7dg$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4ukru8$3k@news.enter.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:11:07 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 11 Aug 1996 14:49:44 GMT, yawen@enter.net (Yale F. Edeiken) wrote: >> mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) writes: >> How do I make threats regarding the address of my daughter when I >have >> no daughter? > Tell it to the judge, Matty poo. He will call you a liar too. Your death >threat was made about any *call* to you about your daughter's phone number. >Whether or not you had a daughter is irrelevant to your threat. >> I have no daughter. How simple do I have to make it for an attonrey? > The threat did not relate to your daughter but a phone call about your >daughter. How simple do I have to make it for a criminal? >> What have you reported? That I have no daugher? > No. Your death threat. >> You folks are fucking stupid. > You are a criminal. You are an asshole. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 17:24:39 PDT 1996 Article: 56621 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!ddsw1!news.mcs.net!van-bc!news.mindlink.net!sol.ctr.columbia.edu!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Shhh! Don't mention it [Technical aspects of the gassings] Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 19:48:35 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 18 Message-ID: <4uldj1$p2k@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <320b3e8f.548700@news.pacificnet.net> <4ugagk$dcp@Networking.Stanford.EDU> <4uk3m2$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <320e0fb6.5372433@news.pacificnet.net> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:50:57 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 16:52:27 GMT, tm@pacificnet.net (tom moran) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> Excuse me. But were the homosexuals, gypsies, and Slavs not also >>targeted solely on the basis of being homosexuals, gypsies and Slavs? > Good point Giwwwwwwwwwwwer. The Jews are always trying to >distinguish their alleged fatalities as special above all the rest of >the alleged fatalities. There is a Wiesel quote around somewhere to the effect of, unlike homosexuals Jews were killed for what they were rather than for what they did. Rather the gay basher. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 17:24:39 PDT 1996 Article: 56622 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!vertex.tor.hookup.net!hookup!tank.news.pipex.net!pipex!nntp.primenet.com!news1.best.com!news.sgi.com!spool.mu.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: All Roads Lead to Zero Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 19:51:01 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 24 Message-ID: <4uldnj$p2k@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <320b3feb.896046@news.pacificnet.net> <4uftvj$6k7@dfw-ixnews10.ix.netcom.com> <4uhlb1$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4uiesp$5rm@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4uk421$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> <4ukoat$9hr@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 12:53:23 PM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 13:44:10 GMT, syegul@ix.netcom.com (Serdar Yegulalp) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >> That is correct. Every burned body is accounted for by enterance and >>death records. And with that no gassing is required and no impossible >>cremation rates are required. >> So what is your problem? >How are they impossible? 16 times faster than the best of modern technology according to Keren. But the point is that there is no need for any gassing if everyone was recorded. And that question is, if they were not recorded, how do you know that they were ever in the camp? From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 17:24:40 PDT 1996 Article: 56627 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!hunter.premier.net!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: I'm not a revisionist but here's a thought Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 18:53:10 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 183 Message-ID: <4ulab7$p2k@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u57d7$a9d@nntp.igs.net> <32079501.994@c2.org> <4u9m12$59j@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <4ud9jh$8e8@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4ueup7$drk@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <4ug354$mc5@lendl.cc.emory.edu> <4uhfts$gfa@dfw-ixnews7.ix.netcom.com> <320df986.10138551@news.inetport.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:55:35 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On Sun, 11 Aug 1996 15:30:57 GMT, mcurtis@inetport.com (Mike Curtis) wrote: >mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) wrote: >>On 9 Aug 1996 19:22:12 GMT, libwca@curly.cc.emory.edu (william c >>anderson) wrote: >> >>>Matt Giwer (mgiwer@ix.netcom.com) wrote: >> >>>: I use the term to everyone who, like a creationist, appears otherwise >>>: sane but has a total belief in gassing without the slighest bit of >>>: physical evidence. >>>: >>>: But you know that, holohugger. >> >> >> >>>CREATIONISTS: HOLOCAUST DENIERS: >> >>>Have little or no support Have little or no support >>>among scientists. among historians. >> >> Historians involved in the holocaust are exceedingly rare as the >>penalties for publishing anything contrary to the existing mythology >>are quite severe. >> >What are these penalties? Cite a few examples for us uninformed folk. >Then why is Christopher Browning doing so well? Ask Irving about it. >> Scientists, however, rely upon physical evidence while holohuggers >>have none, >Massive lie folks. Giwer keeps repeating it though. Everyone knows >better, of course. Be the first to post the physical evidence. >> only testimony such as the man who was gassed six times and >>lived to tell about it. >Who was this? Please. I have posted it at least a dozen times. Are you now claiming you have never read it? >> Gasse six time, creation in six days, not >>much difference. >> >>>Present no evidence to Present no evidence to >>>support their position. support their position. >> >> They merely point to the lack of evidence for gassing. >> >I would have said that neither side can substantiate their arguments >while historians of the holocuast tend to substantiate their claims >very easily. Which historians have dealt with physical evidence? Real historians now, not the honorary ones. >>>Rely entirely on picking Rely entirely on picking >>>tiny holes around the tiny holes around the >>>fringes of the theory fringes of the accepted >>>of evolution. account of the Holocaust. >> >> Rather they attack the heart of the gassing stories, the complete and >>total lack of evidence for it. >Because this self proclaimed genius says so!!! Who better? >>>Must postulate a huge Must postulate a huge >>>conspiracy, directed conspiracy, directed >>>by humanists, to account by Zionists, to account >>>for their refutation of for their refutation of >>>evolution being covered the Holocaust being covered >>>up for so long. up for so long. >> >> Not really. Simple stupidity will explain it all. >It does explain you, sir. It explains huggery. >>>Once read a book by Duanne Once read a book by Bradley >>>Gish, and are now convinced Smith, and are now convinced >>>they know the Truth which they know the Truth which >>>has eluded everybody who's has eluded everybody who's >>>given serious study to the given serious study to the >>>issue. issue. >> >> Never read such a book in my life. It was obvious there was something >>wrong when I discovered ZB was cyanide. The witness descriptions >>simply do not match cyanide. >You haven't read any book in your life it would appear. First you blame reading a book and then you do not blame reading a book. Which will it be? >>>Aren't above lying and Aren't above lying and >>>distorting the words of distorting the words of >>>scientists in order to opponents in order to >>>support their Higher Truth. support their Higher Truth. >> >> Rather it is more interesting that holohuggers are so willing to >>believe all the contradictory and impossible things that are known >>about their holocaust. >Such as? I have many more than this. ======== Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: No fuel needed From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 21:49:31 GMT "MORGEN: These places were faked cloakrooms, and the person was given a check at each one so that the people believed that they would get their things back ... When the last one was in, the doors were shut and the gas was let into the room. As soon as death had set in, the ventilators were started. When the air could be breathed again, the doors were opened, and the Jewish workers removed the bodies. By means of a special procedure... they were burned in the open air without the use of fuel." IMT XX - p. 494. More Nazi physics at work. I am certain our favorite chemist can explain this one. On the other hand, why did they ever need any crematoria if they could do this? >>>You make the call, Matt. From here, it looks like the only difference >>>is that creationists are basically well-intentioned crackpots, while >>>Holocaust deniers are actively engaged in polishing up the memory of >>>one of the greatest mass murders in history, and spitting on the graves >>>of twelve million human beings. >> >> If you ever get the story straight about those who are laughing at the >>idiocy of burning people without fuel >Who says it was without fuel, Mr. Giwer? You? We must do better than >that. As above. Anything else? >> and the like you might be able >>to create an honest comparison. In the mean time, your pointing out >>the lack of physical evidence is quite a good thing. >You are the one doing all the empty pointing. It must be frustrating. But there are attorneys who swear testimony is physical evidence on this conference. If you believe them, that is your problem. >> Remember the time we were over the actual layouts of LK I and II and >>we discovered that not one "witness" ever described the buildings? >>All you folks have going for you is long after the fact speculation. >> >Because he says so! Amazing. I give him a week and he's killfiled >again. It's the same old nonsense warmed over! Because that is the way it is. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 17:24:41 PDT 1996 Article: 56630 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!nntp.teleport.com!netaxs.com!news.dra.com!news.id.net!news.cic.net!nntp.coast.net!nntp.primenet.com!News1.mcs.net!van-bc!n1van.istar!van.istar!west.istar!ott.istar!istar.net!tor.istar!east.istar!news.nstn.ca!newsflash.concordia.ca!newsfeed.pitt.edu!godot.cc.duq.edu!newsgate.duke.edu!agate!newsxfer2.itd.umich.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.politics.white-power,alt.politics.nationalism.white,alt.revisionism,alt.skinheads Subject: Re: Giwer is a moron beyond words... (was McVay, never a Marine...) Date: Wed, 07 Aug 1996 09:38:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 21 Message-ID: <4u9oam$8tv@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> References: <4tcovo$s2r@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> <4thntc$qv5@dfw-ixnews4.ix.netcom.com> <4tlkgj$b3l@shiva.usa.net> <4tnbcq$e0o@dfw-ixnews8.ix.netcom.com> <4tpm2e$adq@sjx-ixn5.ix.netcom.com> <320220D0.1D73@gryn.org> <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-23.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Wed Aug 07 2:40:38 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Xref: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca alt.politics.white-power:39014 alt.politics.nationalism.white:27065 alt.revisionism:56630 alt.skinheads:34465 On Tue, 06 Aug 1996 05:23:54 -0400, schwartz@infinet.com wrote: >In article <4u1h8g$b15@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com>, mgiwer@ix.netcom.com >(Matt Giwer) wrote: >> Parliament does not apply in the US and never will. We are armed. >Is this the Mr. Giwer who never makes threats? Statement of fact, fatbroad. I am still waiting for the FBI to show up. I presume they had a great chuckle over McVay's "complaint." From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 17:24:42 PDT 1996 Article: 56631 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.emf.net!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!news-res.gsl.net!news.gsl.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: The coward McVay Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 08:41:15 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 31 Message-ID: <4uk6fl$8k1@dfw-ixnews5.ix.netcom.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl4-27.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 3:43:33 AM CDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 Every so often the coward, Ken McVay, posts some questions. His lackies repeat them pretending they mean something but they are as stupid as is McVay. Now if the coward wishes to change his killfile and read and respond to my answers to his questions the coward will have come out of his shell. But as with all holohuggers, he is a lying piece of shit who has no right to claim he is posting is public as he has not the teats to face her accusers. She is a worthless piece of trash and of no value to any discussion here as she hides behind a killfile. She is a coward, an animal, a female animal. The lowest of the low in an NG such as this. IT is not worthy to walk the earth without half the Marine Corp being mobilized against it. (Call your local prosecutor for further information but certainly report it soon. They are lock and lock as I type.) McVay is worthless scum who has organized several co-consprirators to its bidding. From mgiwer@ix.netcom.com Sun Aug 11 17:24:43 PDT 1996 Article: 56634 of alt.revisionism Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!news.uoregon.edu!arclight.uoregon.edu!netnews.worldnet.att.net!ix.netcom.com!news From: mgiwer@ix.netcom.com (Matt Giwer) Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: Re: Eight Questions Matt Giwer won't answer (Round 6) Date: Sun, 11 Aug 1996 18:11:54 GMT Organization: images incarnate Lines: 660 Message-ID: <4ul7u2$p2k@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com> References: <4u4k7m$vp@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> <4uceqb$8kg@sjx-ixn6.ix.netcom.com> <320A5A1E.441C@unb.ca> <4ujjg6$4s4g@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net> <4uktj9$bkg@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca> NNTP-Posting-Host: tam-fl3-05.ix.netcom.com X-NETCOM-Date: Sun Aug 11 11:14:26 AM PDT 1996 X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent 1.0.82 On 11 Aug 1996 08:18:01 -0700, kmcvay@nizkor.almanac.bc.ca (Ken McVay OBC) wrote: >[soc.history removed from distribution - Mr. Giwer has no >interest in history.] >In article <4ujjg6$4s4g@news-s01.ny.us.ibm.net>, >gmcfee@ibm.net (Gord McFee) wrote: >>I think we should call Giwer the "cowardly Lyin". >http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/giwerdly-lion.html >Mr. Giwer is, as far as I can determine, a troller whose only >interest is in causing fights. While he can sound superficially >plausible, he has lied about what has been said in exchanges (while >accusing others of lying), refused to document claims, pretended not to >see posts which contain documented refutation of his claims (even when >they have been emailed to him), engaged in actual libel, and generally >conducted himself with such complete lack of intellectual and factual >integrity that there seems to be no point in taking the time to read and >respond. For detailed and documented evidence of this, please refer to >URL http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/g/giwer-matt/ >URL http://www.nizkor.org/encouragements/ >Followups to Giwer trolls should be redirected to Mr. Giwer's special >newsgroup, alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, where they will be appropriately >ignored. If your site does not carry alt.bonehead.matt-giwer, >redirect non-Holocaust articles to alt.politics.white-power, >an equally vapid dumping ground for Giwerundian babblings. >-- >Nizkor Canada | http://www.nizkor.org >-----------------------| Remember John Hron > |-------------------------------------- > http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hron-john/ Mail all queries to ask@israel-info.gov.il GUIDELINES OF THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL JUNE 1996 The Government presented to the Knesset will act on the premise that the right of the Jewish people to the Land of Israel is eternal and indisputable, that the State of Israel is the State of the Jewish people, whose democratic government guarantees equality for all its citizens, and whose main goal is the ingathering and integration of the Jewish people. The striving for national unity, social justice, and personal liberty, and the search for genuine peace with all of our neighbors while safeguarding national and personal security, shall serve as the basis for the Government's policies. The Government will work to achieve the following goals: 1.Achieving peace with all our neighbors, while safeguarding national and personal security. 2.Reinforcing the status of Jerusalem as the eternal capital of the Jewish people. 3.Increasing immigration to Israel, and integrating new immigrants in all walks of life. 4.Creating conditions for a free, thriving economy and social welfare. 5.Strengthening, broadening and developing settlement in Israel. 6.Promoting values of the State of Israel as a Jewish, democratic state, while maintaining a proper balance between the will of the majority and the rights of individual and minorities. 7.Broadening education and strengthening the bond to Jewish heritage and the realization of Zionism. I. PEACE, SECURITY AND FOREIGN RELATIONS 1.The Government of Israel will work to broaden the circle of peace with all of its neighbors, for the good of Israel's citizens and the region's inhabitants, while safeguarding Israel's vital interests. 2.The Government will reinforce and develop its peaceful relations with Egypt and Jordan. 3.The Government of Israel will conduct negotiations with Syria without pre-conditions. 4.The Government will work to raise the level of relations with other Arab countries which have connections with Israel: Qatar, Oman, Morocco, Tunisia, Mauritania, and will work towards mutual recognition and cooperation with Arab countries with which Israel does not have diplomatic relations. 5.The Government of Israel will use all means at its disposal to bring home the prisoners of war and missing in action and all those who worked for the security of the state, and will insist on this point during negotiations with all relevant parties. 6.The Government will negotiate with the Palestinian Authority, with the intent of reaching a permanent arrangement, on the condition that the Palestinians fulfill all their commitments fully. 7.The Government of Israel will propose to the Palestinians an arrangement whereby they will be able to conduct their lives freely within the framework of self-government. The Government will oppose the establishment of a Palestinian state or any foreign sovereignty west of the Jordan River, and will oppose "the right of return" of Arab populations to any part of the Land of Israel west of the Jordan River. 8.In any political arrangement, Israel shall insist on ensuring the existence and security of Jewish settlements and their affinity with the State of Israel. The Government of Israel will continue to bear full responsibility for the Jewish settlements and their residents. 9.The Government views the Golan Heights as essential to the security of the state and its water resources. Retaining Israeli sovereignty over the Golan will be the basis for an arrangement with Syria. 10.The State of Israel will keep strengthening the Israel Defense Forces and other security forces to deter potential enemies, prevent war and defend the state and its citizens. 11.The Government will exercise its right to use the IDF and security forces to act against the threat of terrorism everywhere, to ensure the well being of the country's residents and the Jewish people. 12.The Government will act to remove the threat to the northern border and will ensure economic development to residents in the north. 13.The Government's privatization policy will take into account the essential nature of the defense industries to the country's security. 14.The Government will promote Israel's foreign relations to enhance its security and peace, and to further the goal of economic and cultural growth. 15.The Government will nurture its special, close relationship with the United States, on the basis of the commitment of both to the values of liberty, justice, democracy, and the commonality of their interests. 16.The Government will act to strengthen relations with Russia and other CIS states, bearing in mind Russia's status in the international community and the interests shared by Israel and these countries. 17.The Government of Israel will continue efforts to have Israel added as an associate member of the European Union, and will act to strengthen its ties with Europe. 18.The Government will strengthen its relations in all spheres with countries in East Asia, especially economic ties with the fast- developing market in the region. 19.The Government will strive to develop relations with all countries desiring peace and will increase Israel's involvement in international organizations. 20.The Government will initiate and cooperate in international efforts against terrorist organizations and those countries which shelter and aid such organizations. 21.The Government will act with determination against any manifestation of anti-semitism throughout the world, and will work to enhance the ties and mutual responsibility between Israel and Jewish communities in the Diaspora. II. JERUSALEM 1.Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, is one city, whole and undivided, and will remain forever under Israel's sovereignty. 2.Freedom of worship and access to the holy places will be guaranteed to members of all faiths. 3.The Government will thwart any attempt to undermine the unity of Jerusalem, and will prevent any action which is counter to Israel's exclusive sovereignty over the city. 4.The Government of Israel, through its ministries and through the Jerusalem Municipality, will allocate special resources to speed up building, improve municipal services for Jewish, Arab and other residents, and to reinforce the social and economic status of the greater Jerusalem area. III. RELIGION AND STATE 1.The Government will act to bring the religious and secular closer through mutual understanding and respect. The Government will retain the status quo on religious matters. Whenever it becomes clear that the status quo was violated, the Government will look into steps to undo the change, including introducing legislation. 2.The Law of Conversion shall be changed so that conversions to Judaism in Israel will be recognized only if approved by the Chief Rabbinate. 3.The Government will initiate research of the history of the Land of Israel and the Jewish People, including archeological excavation, while preserving the dignity of the dead. 4.The Government will make prayer arrangements for Jews at holy sites in accordance to the guidelines of religious law. IV. IMMIGRATION AND ABSORPTION 1.Recognizing the shared fate and the joint struggle for the existence of the Jewish people, and to achieve the main goal of the State of Israel -- the ingathering of the Jewish people in its homeland -- the Government will act with determination to increase immigration >from all countries, rescue persecuted Jews, and create social and economic conditions for a speedy and successful integration of immigrants. 2.The Government will put immigration and absorption at the top of its priorities in the belief that effective action on its part will turn Israel into a center which will draw immigrants from prosperous and deprived countries alike. The Government will initiate a strategic, long-term program to tap the immigration potential from various countries, estimated at one million immigrants in the coming decade. 3.The Government will work to bridge the gaps between new immigrants and veteran residents, and will create conditions to facilitate their smooth and successful integration into Israeli society. The Government will work through information, education and law enforcement to prevent calumny and slander against immigrant groups or individuals on the basis of their origin, and will deal with manifestations of discrimination or mistreatment of immigrants by the government bureaucracy. 4.The Government will introduce legislation to ensure the rights of immigrants. 5.The Government will work to bring to Israel Ethiopians who wish to immigrate and are eligible under law or government decisions. V. ECONOMICS AND SOCIAL POLICIES Va. Economics 1.To stem the continuous dangerous growth in the State budget deficit, the Government will take steps to decrease the deficit; not by raising taxes, but by cutting expenditures, and strict budgetary policies. To increase revenues, the Government will significantly expand privatization, including the sale of land, while reducing the Government's involvement in the economy. 2.The Government will act to establish conditions which will provide economic stability, durable growth, the reduction of inflation, and continued structural reforms. 3.The Government will halt the current policies which have created dangerous deficits in the balance of trade and the balance of payments, and will take all necessary steps to reduce them. 4.Israel's economy is small, and dependent on foreign trade. Its successful development is conditioned on specialization in sectors in which it has a relative advantage, and which allows it to produce and export high quality products and services at a competitive price. This requires exposure to world markets and the cancellation of limitations and tariffs, in order to strengthen the economy's ability to compete. 5.The Government will strengthen exposure and liberalization policies in the capital and financial markets, as well as in the labor market. 6.The Government will fight inflation by reducing government expenditures, decreasing the state budget, establishing conditions for increasing productivity, and through appropriate monetary policies. 7.The Government will implement privatization policies and will transfer its control in business enterprises -- including statutory authorities and the banks -- to the public and to the private sector. 8.The Government will encourage competition in the economy with the goal of allowing consumers to purchase a variety of products and services at competitive prices set by the free market rather than as a result of intervention by government or political party apparatuses. 9.To increase the economic growth, the Government will act to create conditions for the development of small and medium sized enterprises. 10.The Government will do its utmost to restore faith in the capital market, and will encourage increased savings. 11.The Government will strengthen government structures and reduce the bureaucracy. Vb. Social Welfare 1.Development of the economy and growth will facilitate the construction of a strong society, a fair distribution of the tax burden, the creation of new jobs, and an increase in aid to the disadvantaged. The government will act vigorously to reduce poverty through education, employment, and social renewal. 2.The Government will work to create social justice and equal opportunity for all, while recognizing that every person has the right to dignity and quality of life. The Government will strive to create a strong society in Israel, by maintaining balance encouraging private enterprise and government involvement. 3.The Government will -- as its first priority -- put in place a comprehensive program to solve the housing problems of young couples and large families, to allow them to purchase apartments at reasonable prices. The Government will also work to build rental apartments for young couples and large families in accordance with criteria set by the government. 4.The Government will examine the disposition of Israel's health services and the way in which the National Health Insurance Law has been implemented, as well as its implications. The Government will -- through legislation -- initiate changes and additions in order to improve health services in Israel. 5.The Government of Israel will significantly promote social welfare and quality of life in development towns and increase efforts to rehabilitate distressed neighborhoods. 6.The Government will improve the welfare of the individual, strive for full employment, and ensure basic living conditions for all citizens. 7.The Government recognizes that priority should be given to senior citizens and recognizes its obligation to improve the quality of life for senior citizens in need in the areas of housing, nursing care, and the granting of benefits and relief in accordance to criteria to be determined. 8.The Government will work to establish pension insurance on a stable actuarial base which will facilitate pension payments at the level required to maintain a suitable standard of living. 9.The Government will implement assistance programs for the handicapped with the goal of giving them suitable living conditions for their rehabilitation and integration into society. 10.The Government will act to aid discharged soldiers in the spheres of higher education, employment and housing. 11.The Government will wage an uncompromising war against the plague of drugs as a national mission of the utmost importance and will allocate the resources necessary to this end. Vc. The Fight Against Traffic Accidents The human, social and economic damage of traffic accidents in Israel is relatively much greater than in other developed countries. Contributing to this are the human component, deficient infrastructures, the absence of complementary inter-urban and urban mass transit, deficient legislation, and partial enforcement of existing laws. The Government will devote special attention to this issue, and will budget all the resources required to decrease the number of accidents. Vd. Infrastructures 1.The Government will initiate publicly and privately funded projects for investment in physical and human infrastructures in the spheres of transportation, energy and communications, education and research and development, with the aim of creating in Israel the environment necessary for the Israeli economy to join those of the developed countries of the world. 2.The Government will act for the gradual construction of an advanced, wide-band infrastructure between a number of focal points across the country, and will initiate a unification of computer communications networks, currently operated by commercial firms, universities and public bodies, into one network. The national computer communications carrier will be connected to international sites on extensive and fast communications lines. 3.The Government will develop government databases and encourage the establishment of private databases, which together will constitute a national information infrastructure, open to public use through computers. Ve. The Environment 1.The Government of Israel will raise environmental issues to the top of the national agenda, and act to enhance public consciousness regarding the preservation of the environment as an integral part of the struggle to preserve the country and out of a desire to build in it a healthy and prosperous society of values. 2.The Government of Israel will give priority to preserving the country's natural resources: its water, air, soil, flora and fauna. The Government will initiate basic environmental legislation, in place of and in addition to current regulations. 3.The Government will give high priority to waste recycling projects and to the establishment of wastewa