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From mvanalst@rbi.com Thu May 30 15:27:18 PDT 1996
Article: 40235 of alt.revisionism
Path: nizkor.almanac.bc.ca!news.island.net!news.bctel.net!newsfeed.direct.ca!imci2!imci3!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.zeitgeist.net!rbi144.rbi.com!user
From: mvanalst@rbi.com (Mark Van Alstine)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Part of an interesting document
Date: Wed, 29 May 1996 20:25:18 -0700
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References: <4od94e$t5s@sjx-ixn2.ix.netcom.com> <31A9E5ED.5FB7@rio.com>
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In article <31A9E5ED.5FB7@rio.com>, Chuck Ferree  wrote:

> Chuck Ferree writes:
> 
> There you go again. Sticking up for a convicted war criminal. Martin 
> Bormann, was as bad as they come. 
> 
> *"The second private secretary was one Martin BORMANN a mole like man 
> who preferred to burrow in the dark recesses of party life to further 
> his intrigues and who once had served a year in prison for complicity 
> in a political murder."
> 
> "Privately, Hitler gave orders to have Hess shot at once if he 
> returned and publicly he stripped his old comrade of all his offices, 
> replacing him as deputy leader of the party by MARTIN BORMANN, a more 
> sinister and conniving character."  
> 
> "Not many Germans lost much sleep over the arrests of a few thousand 
> pastors and priests or over the quarreling of the various Protestant 
> sects. And even fewer paused to reflect that under the leadership of 
> Rosenberg, BORMANN and Himmler, who were backed by Hitler the Nazi 
> regime intended eventually to destroy Christianity in Germany, if it 
> could, and substitute the old paganism of the early tribal German gods 
> and the new paganism of the Nazi extremists. As BORMANN, one of the 
> men closest to Hitler, said publicly in 1941, 'National Socialism and 
> Christianity are irreconcilable.' "
> 
> *William L. Shirer
> The Rise and Fall of The Third Reich
> 
> Matt Giwer wrote:
> > 
> >         The numbers refer document pages from the Nuremberg trials.
> > 
> > ===
> > 
> > MARTIN BORMANN
> > 
> >         Bormann was accused of "persecution of religion" and many other
> > crimes. Bormann's attorney, Dr. Bergold, pointed out that many
> > modern countries (meaning the Soviet Union) are avowedly atheist,
> > and that orders forbidding priests from holding high Party
> > offices (that is, offices in the Nazi Party) could not be called
> > "persecution".
> > 
> >          In Dr. Bergold's words: "The party is described as criminal - as
> > a conspiracy. Is it a crime to exclude certain people from
> > membership in a criminal conspiracy? Is that considered a crime?"
> > (V 312 <<353>>).
> 
> > Eyewitness testimony to the physically impossible is only
> > evidence that he was not an eyewitness.
> 

>From  the _Encyclopedia of the Holocaust_, vol 1, pp.233-234:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
BORMANN, MARTIN (1900-1945?), Nazi leader and close aid to Adolf HITLER.
Bormann was born in Halberstadt into the family of a postal worker. Toward
the end of World War I he interrupted his high school studies to enlist in
the artillery, but the war ended before he reached the front. At the end
of the war Bormann joined the Deutsche Freikorps, which carried out acts
of violence along the Latvian Border after Latvia declared itself
independant. Subsequently,Bormann was active in the underground,
paramilitary nationalist Frontbann organization, created by Ernst RO"HM,
and participated in one of its political assassinations (Fememorde). In
1923 he was arrested for this, and sentanced to a year's imprisonment. In
prison he became aquuainted with Rudolf HO"SS, future commandant of the
AUSCHWITZ extermination camp. After Bormann's release in 1925, he joined
the Nazi Party and the SA (Sturmabteilung; Storm Troopers) in Thuringia,
and in 1926 was appointed head of Nazi press affairs and deputy SA
commander of the region. In 1928 he rose to the rank of Gauleiter of
Thuringia. Known in the Nazi party as an active fund-raiser, he was
appointed treasurer at the party center in Munich. With the Nazi rise to
power in 1933, Bormann was elected to the Reichstag and became head of the
office of Rudolf HESS, Hitler's deputy in the party. From this time
Bormann remained at the center of Nazi power around Hitler and was
responsible for all financial and administrative affairs. He was always in
the shadow of the Fu"hrer, excelling as a planner and a behind-the-scenes
man, but not as a public speaker.

After Hess's strange flight to Scotland in 1941, Bormann's power
increased. In 1942 he was appointed head of the party secretariat and of
the party staff, with the rank of Reichsminister, and in 1943 he became
Hitler's secretary. In this capacity,Bormann also controlled Hitler's
appointments calendar, sometimes preventing important figures such as
Herman GO"ring, Joseph GOEBBELS, and Heinrich HIMMLER, and Albert SPEER
>from  approaching the leader. He took notes on Hitler's speeches and
monologues at luncheons with his favorites, the material known as Hitler's
"table talks."

As the war continued and became Hitler's principal occupation, Bormann's
status grew, since he was charged in Hitler's name not only with party
affairs but with the domestic affairs of Germany. In aprticular,Bormann
was active in fields such as the EUTHANASIA PROGRAM, the war against the
church, the pillage of art objects in the occupied countries of eastern
Europe, and the expansion of forced-labor programs throughout Europe.
Above all, Bormann, who was completely amoral, was the zealous executor of
the racist plan of National Socialism and in particular of the persecution
and extermination of the Jews. He signed the series of anti-Jewish edicts
ordering the deportation of the Jews to the east, the concentration of
power in Jewish affairs in the hands of the SS, and the concealment of the
massacre as the "transfer of the Jews to labor in the east."

Bormann was appointed commander of the People's Army (Volkssturm), created
toward the end of the war, in October 1944. His desire for greater
personal power did not cease even after Hitler entered his bunker in
Berlin. In the last stage of Nazi rule, Bormann tried to have Go"ring
executed, was a witness to Hitler's marriage of Eva Braun a day before
their suicide, and observed the suicide of Goebbels and his family. Befre
the surrender, it was Bormann who informed Adm. Karl Do"nitz that Do"nitz
had been appointed the Fu"hrer's successor.

After Hitler's death, Bormann allegedly tried to conduct negotiations with
the Soviets, but after becoming convinced that these were hopeless he gave
the order to escape from the bunker. With that his trace vanished. On
October 29, 1945, Bormann was indicted in absentia with the other Nazi
leaders by the International Military Tribunal at Nuremburg, and on
October 1, 1946, he was sentenced to death in absentia.

Bormann's fate is uncertain. According to unreliable testimony, he was
killed by a Soviet shell or committed suicide, and according to rumors
that spread in the 1960's he escaped to South America, perhaps Paraguay.
In early 1973 a West German forensic expert determined that one of two
skletons discovered in West Berlin during excavations in 1972 was almost
certainly that of Bormann. On the basis of this determination, Bormann was
officially declared dead.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------


>From  the _The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich, pp.1224-1225,1228:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A fortnight before, October 2, the Fuehrer had clarified his thoughts
about the fate of the Poles, the second of the Slavic peoples to be
conquered, His faithful secretary, Martin Bormann, has left a long
memorandum on the Nazi plans, which Hitler outlined to Hans Frank, the
Governor General of rump Poland, and to other officials.
  
   The Poles [Hitler "emphasized'] are especially born for low labor... 
   There can be no question of improvement for them. It is necessary to keep
   the standard of life low in Poland and it must not be permitted to
rise...    
   The Poles are lazy and it is necessary to use compulsion to make them 
   work... The Government General [of Poland] should be used by us merely as
   a source of unskilled labor... Every year laborers needed by the Reich
   could be procurred from there.

As for the Polish Priests,

   they will preach what we want them to preach. If any priest acts 
   differently, we shall make short work of him. The task of the priest
   is to keep the Poles quit, stupid and dullwitted.

There were two other classes of Poles to be dealt with and the Nazi
dictator did not neglect mention of them.

   It is indispensible to bear in mind that the Polish gentry must cease
to exist; however cruel this may sound, they must be exterminated wherever
they are...
   
   There should be one master only for the Poles, the German. Two masters,
   side by side, cannot and must not exist. Therefore, all representatives
   of the Polish intelligentsia are to be exterminated. This sounds cruel,
   but such is the law of life.

...On July 16, 1941, less than a month after the commencement of the
Russian campaign but when it was already evident from the intial successes
that a large slice of the Soviet Union would soon be within grsp, Hitler
convoked Goering, Keitel, Rosenberg, Bormann and Lammers (the last head of
the Reich Chancellery) to his headquarters in East Prussia to remind them
of his aims in the newly conquered land. At last his goal so clearly
stated in _Mein Kampf_ of securing a vast German _Lebensraum_ in Russia
was in sight and it is clear from the confidential memorandum of the
meeting drawn up by Bormann (which showed up at Nuremburg) that he wanted
his chief lieutenants to understand well what he intended to do with it.
His intentions, he admonished, must however, not be "publicized."

   There is no need for that [Hitler said] but the main thing is that we 
   ourselves know what we want... Nobody must be able to recognize that it 
   initiates a final settlement. This need not prevent out taking all 
   necessary mesures- shooting, resettling, etc. -and we shall take them.

In principle, Hitler continued,

   we now have to face the task of cutting up the cake according to our needs
   in order to be able:

       first, to dominate it;
       second, to administer it;
       third to exploit it.

He did not mind, he said, that the Russians had ordered partisan warfare
behind German lines; "it enables us to eradicate everyone who opposes us."
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

As to the treatment by the Nazis of the aforementioned clergy (those who
ended up in concentration camps, that is) the following memos are
instructive. From _Concentration Camp Dachau 1933-1945_, p.61:


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

SS-Wirtschaftsverwaltungshauuptamt
Amtsgruppenchef D
-Concentration Camps-B 3/1/Az: 14 c 9/Ot./W.
Geheim Tgb. Nr. 243/42                           Oranienburg, April 21, 1942

Sub: Allocation of work to clergymen
Ref: SS-WVHA Ch. Fe/IIs of April 18, 1942
Encl: none

To the Commandants of the Concentration Camps Da, Sah. Bu. Mau. Flo. Neu.
Au. Gr.Ro, Natz. Nie. Stu. Arb. Rav. Kreigsgef. Lager Lublin

The Reichsfu"hrerSS and Chief of the German Police has ordered that the
Polish and Lithuanian "parsons" should be made to do real work, i.e. they
should be given all types of work. The German, Dutch and Norwegian etc.
clergymen should however continue to be employed in the herb garden.
The carrying out of this order is to be confirmed.

             signed:
             SS-Obersturmbannfu"hrer

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

SS-Wirtschaftsverwaltungshauuptamt
                                                 Oranienburg, Oct 28, 1944

-Amtsgruppe D-
Concentration Camps

Sub: Clergymen in the Concentration Camps
Re: Reichssichereitshauptamt - VI a 6 - Allg. Nr. 44157 v. 16.44
Encl.:-

To the Commandants of the Concentration Camps Au. I, Au. II, Au III, Bu,
Da, Flo, Gro-Ro. Mau Nie, Natz, Neu, Rav, Sah, Stu., A.L. Bergen Belsen

As a result of the admittance of clergymen through the offices of the
Chief of the Sipo and the SD it has become necessary once more to transfer
them to Dachau concentration camp.
I therefore order that all clergymen at present in custody in other camps
should be transferred to the special section for clergymen in Dachau.

The following are to be exempted from this transfer:
   a) clergymen for whom the Reichssichereitshauptamt has given special    
      instructions
   b) clergymen classified under the NN decree (Nacht and Nebel)

Clergymen in b) are to be treated like all other prisoners and are to be
classified as such in the camp statistics.
The Reichssichereitshauptamt is to be informed of each individual case in
order to complete the file.
The actual transfer of these prisoners shoud be part of a larger transport
to Dachau concentration camp.

             The Chief of Amt DI
             SS Obersturmbannfu"hrer

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

[snip]

> Now let's see you defend some more Nazi War criminals!
> How can you speak well of these men who perpetrated the worst, 
> cruelest, most inhumane acts in modern history? They plotted to rid 
> Europe of millions of Jews, and they came mighty close to doing it. 
> Not to mention the millions of others, who were also murdered by the 
> Nazis.
> Chuck

Not to worry, Giwer has indeed already done so. Giwer seems to be of the
opinion that that Economy Minister and Reichsbank president Walther Funk
was a "classical pianist" who's only crime was "accepting birthday gifts
>from  Hitler."

Of course, according to the _Encylopedia of the Holocaust (p.535) "Funk
was found guilty of war crimes, crimes against peace, and crimes against
humanity. He had taken part in the confiscation of the murdered Jews'
valuables and financial assets and their transfer to the SS."

I think it not unfair to say that Giwer, besides being a troll and an
anti-Semite, now seems to also be trying his hand at Nazi apologia. 

Unsuprising, really. 


Mark

posted/e-mailed

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Gradually it was disclosed to me that the line separating good and evil passes 
not through states, nor between classes, nor between political parties--but
right through every human heart--and all human hearts." 

-- Alexander Solzhenitsyn, "The Gulag Archipelago"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



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