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Q. Did you believe a word that Hitler said on 12th March?
Did you still believe a word that Hitler said that day?

A. Yes, still - at that time.

Q. I thought von Fritsch was a friend of yours; was he not?

A. Who?

Q. Colonel-General von Fritsch; he was a friend of yours?

A. Yes, indeed.

Q. You did not believe that he had been guilty of
homosexuality, did you?

A. No, never.

Q. Well, did they not - did you not know that he had been
subject in January, 1938, to a framed-up charge?

THE PRESIDENT: Will you please answer instead of shaking
your head.

THE WITNESS: Yes, I knew that, of course, and I learned of
it and the fact that this charge was a fabrication of the
Gestapo, at least in my opinion, but not of Hitler.

BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:

Q. Well, did you not know that those - these unsavoury
matters concerning Field-Marshal von Blomberg and Colonel-
General von Fritsch had been faked up by members of the Nazi
gang, who were your colleagues in the Government?

A. Yes. The details were unknown to me, of course.

Q. You see, you remember that at the time of Munich, when
you came back to the field . came back into activity for
some time, President Benes did appeal to this German-
Czechoslovak Arbitration Convention and Hitler brushed the
appeal aside. Do you remember that? In September, 1938?

A. No; that I do not know, for at the time I was not in
office any longer and I did not know of these matters at
all. I do not know about that.

Q. You do not know? Of course, it was in the German Press
and every other Press that he appealed to this Convention
and Hitler refused to listen; but you say that you honestly
believed on 12th March that Hitler would stand by that
Arbitration Treaty; that is what you said?

A. Yes, I had no misgivings.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, that might be a convenient
moment to break off.

(A recess was taken.)

BY SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE:

Q. Defendant, you spoke yesterday with regard to the
memorandum of Lieutenant-General Frederici. Do you remember
in that memorandum he referred to a memorandum of yours on
how to deal with Czechoslovakia?

Well, now, I would like you just to look at Document 3859,
so that the Tribunal can see your attitude towards the
Czechs from your own words.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, that is at Page 107 of
Document Book 12-A.

                                                  [Page 187]

Q. (continuing): I will read first your letter to Lammers of
31st August, 1940.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, that will be Exhibit GB
520.

Q. (continuing): You say:

  "Dear Herr Lammers: Enclosed I send you the memorandum,
  which I mentioned in advance in my letter of 13th July,
  1940, about the question of the future organization of
  the Bohemian-Moravian country. I enclose another
  memorandum on the same question, which my Secretary of
  State K. H. Frank has drawn up independently of me and
  which, in its train of thoughts, leads to the same
  result" - I ask you to note the next words - "and with
  which I fully agree. Please present both memoranda to the
  Fuehrer and arrange a date for a personal interview for
  myself and State Secretary Frank. As I have heard from a
  private source that individual Party and other offices
  intend to submit proposals to the Fuehrer for separating
  various parts of the Protectorate under my authority,
  without my knowing these projects in detail, I should be
  grateful to you if you would arrange the date for my
  interview early enough for me, as the competent Reich
  Protector and one who understands the Czech problem, to
  have an opportunity, together with my State Secretary, to
  place our opinions before the Fuehrer before all sorts of
  plans are suggested to him by other people."

Now, I would just like to take what I hope will be the gist
of your own memorandum. If you will turn it over - this is
your memorandum. Take the first paragraph, Section I:

  "Any considerations about the future organization of
  Bohemia and Moravia must be based on the goal which is to
  be laid down for that territory from a national-political
  (staatspolitisch) and ethnic-political (volkspolitisch)
  point of view.
  
  From a national-political standpoint there can be but one
  aim: total incorporation into the Greater German Reich;
  from an ethnic-political standpoint to fill this
  territory with Germans."

And then, if you go on to Section 2, in the middle of
paragraph 2, you will find a sub-paragraph beginning ...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, it is the top of Page 109,
your Lordship's copy.

  Q. (continuing): "These 7.2 million Czechs, of whom 3.4
  millions live in towns and communities of over 2,000
  inhabitants and 3.8 millions in communities of under
  2,000 and in the country, are led and influenced by an
  intelligentsia which is unduly puffed up in proportion to
  the size of the country. This part of the population also
  tried, after the alteration of the constitutional
  situation of this area, more or less openly to sabotage
  or at any rate postpone necessary measures which were
  intended to fit the circumstances of the country to the
  new state of affairs. The remaining part of the
  population, small craftsmen, peasants and workmen,
  adapted themselves better to the new conditions."

Then, if you go on to Paragraph 3, you say:

  "But it would be a fatal mistake to conclude from this
  that the Government and population behaved in this
  correct manner because they had inwardly accepted the
  loss of their independent state, and their incorporation
  into Greater Germany. The Germans continue to be looked
  upon as unwelcome intruders and there is a widespread
  longing for a return to the old state of affairs, even if
  the people do not express it openly.
  
  By and large, the population submit to the new
  conditions, but they only do so because they either have
  the necessary rational insight or else because they fear
  the consequences of disobedience. They certainly do not
  do so from conviction. This will be the state of affairs
  for some time to come." "But - "

                                                  [Page 188]

Go on to section 3:

  " - as things are like that, a decision will have to be
  taken as to what is to be done with the Czech people in
  order to attain the objective of incorporating the
  country and filling it with Germans as quickly and as
  thoroughly as possible.
  
  The most radical and theoretically complete solution of
  the problem would be to evacuate all Czechs completely
  from this country and replace them by Germans."

Then you say that that is not possible because there are not
sufficient Germans to fill the country immediately.

Then, if you go on to paragraph 2, to the second half, you
say ...

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, that is the last six lines
of Page 110.

  Q. (continuing): "It will, where the Czechs are
  concerned, rather be a case on the one hand, of keeping
  those Czechs who are suitable for Germanisation by
  individual selective breeding, while, on the other hand,
  expelling those who are not useful from a racial
  standpoint or are enemies of the Reich, that is, the
  intelligentsia which has developed in the last twenty
  years. If we use such a procedure, Germanisation can be
  carried out successfully."

Now, defendant, you know that in the Indictment in this
trial we are charging you and your fellow-defendants with,
among many other things, genocide, which we say is the
extermination of racial and national groups, or, as it has
been put in the well-known book of Professor Lemkin:

  "a co-ordinated plan of different actions aiming at the
  destruction of essential foundations of the life of
  national groups with the aim of annihilating the groups
  themselves."

What you wanted to do was to get rid of the teachers and
writers and singers of Czechoslovakia, whom you call the
intelligentsia, the people who would hand down the history
and traditions of the Czech people to other generations.
These were the people that you wanted to destroy by what you
say in that memorandum, were they not?

A. Not quite. Here there are -

Q. But just before you answer, what did you mean by saying,
in the last passage that I read to you:

  "expelling those who are not useful from a racial
  standpoint or are enemies of the Reich; that is, the
  intelligentsia which has developed during the last twenty
  years."

Did you mean what you said? Were you speaking the truth when
you said it was necessary to expel the intelligentsia?

A. To that I can only say one thing, yes and no. First of
all, I should like to say that from this report it becomes
apparent that the memorandum was written by Frank. I joined
my name to it, and this was on 31st August, 1940. The
memorandum which I ... the memorandum which is referred to
in the Frederici report is from a ... is dated later, I
think, although I do not know off-hand.

Q. I think you will find ... I will give you, in a moment,
the letter from Siemke, who transmits Hitler's view, and I
think you will find that it is this memorandum that Hitler
is dealing with. I will show you Frank's memorandum in a
moment. I am suggesting to you now that, as you said to
Lammers, you enclosed your own and another memorandum. I
will read you the essential part of the other one, which is
the memorandum of Karl Hermann Frank, in a moment. But this
is a -

A. They are both by Frank.

Q. I will show it ... No, but look at your own letter of
31st August: "Enclosed I send you the memorandum," and you
go on: "I enclose another memorandum ... which my State
Secretary K. H. Frank has drawn up independently of me ...
with which I fully agree." I am suggesting to you that you
know that this is your memorandum, referred to in the
Frederici document

                                                  [Page 189]

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, that is Page 131 of
Document Book 12.

Q. (continuing): - where General Frederici says: "After
ample deliberation the Reich Protector expressed his view
about the various plans in a memorandum." I am suggesting to
you that this is your memorandum which you sent on to
Lammers for submission to the Fuehrer. Are you saying - are
you really going to tell the Tribunal that this is not your
memorandum?

A. No, I do not want to say that at all. At the moment I
really do not know any longer. I did not write it, but I
agreed with its contents. The letter to Lammers says so.

Q. Well, now, if you agreed with its contents, what else did
you mean by saying that you would have to expel the
intelligentsia, except that you were going to break down the
Czechs as a national entity and expel the people who would
keep going that history and tradition and language? Is that
not why you wanted to expel the intelligentsia?

A. I never mentioned the word "destroy," but said that the
intelligentsia -

Q. I said "expel" -

A. I see.

Q. - which is your own word.

A. The intelligentsia class was the greatest obstacle to co-
operation between Germans and Czechs. For that reason, if we
wanted to achieve this co-operation, and that was still the
aim of our policy, then this intelligentsia had to be
reduced in some way and in particular their influence had to
be diminished, and that was the meaning of my explanation.

Q. Yes, you said to achieve your policy, but by achieving
your policy you mean to destroy the Czech people as a
national entity with their own language, history and
traditions, and assimilate them into the Greater German
Reich. That was your policy, was it not?

A. My policy was, first of all, to assimilate the Czechs, as
far as possible. But in the final analysis that could not
have been achieved for generations. The first thing to do
was to bring about co-operation so as to have peace and
order.

Q. Well, now, before - before I put to you the memorandum of
Frank, with which you entirely agree, would you look at
paragraph 7 of your own memorandum.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, it is Page 113 of Document
Book 12 A.

Q. (continuing): In Section 7 you say:

  "If one considers the gigantic tasks facing the German
  nation after a victorious war, the necessity for a
  careful and rational utilization of Germans will be
  apparent to everyone. There are so many tasks that have
  to be tackled at once and simultaneously that a careful,
  well-thought-out utilization of the Germans who are
  suitable for carrying out these tasks is necessary.
  
  The Greater German Reich will have to make use of the
  help of foreigners on a large scale in all spheres, and
  must confine itself to appointing Germans to the key
  positions and to taking over the reins of public
  administration where the interests of the Reich make it
  absolutely necessary."

You were, in this memorandum, blue-printing the plans for
dealing with the Czechs after the war on the basis of the
German victory, that is, that they should disappear as a
nation and become assimilated to the German Reich. Was that
not what was in your mind?

A. To make the Czechs disappear as a nation was altogether
impossible. That was not possible at all. But they were to
incorporate themselves more closely into the Reich, and that
is what I mean by the word "assimilate."

Moreover, it is also stated in this memorandum - earlier,
much earlier - that from the racial point of view - if you
want to use that unpleasant expression - there was an
extraordinarily large number of Germans within
Czechoslovakia.

                                                  [Page 190]

Q. Well, now, just turn over and see how the ... your State
Secretary's memorandum with which you entirely agree, how
that runs.

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: My Lord, your Lordship will find the
beginning of that is Enclosure 2 on Page 115.

Q. (continuing): The State Secretary states his problem. He
says, in the second sentence:

  "The question as to whether the Protectorate, with a
  Reich Protector as its head, is suitable for settling the
  Czech problem and should therefore be retained or whether
  it should now give place to some other form of government
  is being raised by various people and is the cause of
  this memorandum. It will briefly:
     (a) indicate the nature of the Czech problem;
     (b) analyse the present way in which it is being dealt
     with;
     (c) examine the proposed alterations from the point of
     view of their suitability, and finally
     (d) express an independent opinion on the whole
     question."

Well, now, I would like you just to look at your State
Secretary's independent opinion with which you entirely
agree.

THE PRESIDENT: Ought you not to read the last two lines?

SIR DAVID MAXWELL FYFE: Oh, yes, my Lord, I am sorry.

  "On a correct decision depends the solution of the Czech
  problem. We thus bear the responsibility for centuries to
  come."

Now, my Lord, Frank's own opinion starts on 121 - Page 121
in Section D of the memorandum, and he begins by saying:

  "The aim of Reich policy in Bohemia and Moravia must be
  the complete Germanisation of area and people. In order
  to attain this, there are two possibilities:
  
  I. The total evacuation of the Czechs from Bohemia and
  Moravia to a territory outside the Reich and the
  settlement of Germans in the freed territory or
  
  II. If one leaves the majority of the Czechs in Bohemia
  and Moravia the simultaneous application of a great
  variety of methods working towards Germanisation, in
  accordance with plan X.
  
  Such a Germanisation provides for:
  
     1. The changing of the nationality of racially suitable
     Czechs;
     
     2. The expulsion of racially unassimilable Czechs and
     of the intelligentsia who are enemies of the Reich, or
     'special treatment' for these and all destructive
     elements;
     
     3. The re-colonising of the territory thus freed with
     fresh German blood."


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