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Shofar FTP Archive File: places/germany/language/ausrotten.001


Archive/File: holocaust/germany/language ausrotten.001
Last-Modified: 1994/10/94

Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
From: stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
Subject: Re: Aussrotten
Message-ID: <1994Aug20.215113.3010@uklirb.informatik.uni-kl.de>
Organization: University of Kaiserslautern, Germany
References:   <1994Aug02.122121.20852@oneb.almanac.bc.ca> 
Date: Sat, 20 Aug 1994 21:51:13 GMT
Lines: 41

In article , ai292@FreeNet.Carleton.CA (Gordon McFee) writes:
|> In a previous article, landpost@clark.net () says:
|> >In article <1994Aug02.122121.20852@oneb.almanac.bc.ca>,
|> >kmcvay@oneb.almanac.bc.ca (Ken Mcvay) wrote:

|> >>  In doing this, he of
|> >> >course glosses over the fact that the common German word for a purge
|> >> >is "Reinigung".
|> >>
|> >You must be a total moron. A "Reinigung" is a laundromat, you imbecile.
|> >"Ausrotten" means to root-out someone or something. 
|> 
|> I am afraid you are the total moron.  Reinigung means a cleansing or
|> purification.  A chemische Reinigung is a laundromat.  Used by the Nazis,
|> Reinigung meant purification (Streicher's favorite expression), which in
|> turn meant an extermination.  E.g. die Reinigung der Volksgemeinschaft.
[...]

The revisionists should be aware that this newsgroup reaches Germany
before they try to assume and interpret the german language in such
strange ways. I did not respond to this thread earlier because of it's
stupidity - I thought it would die quickly on it's own...*sigh*

"Ausrotten" means "to exterminate" - I do not doubt that it has common
roots with "root out", but this is much less obvious in German usage
as in comparison with English. In german language use "ausrotten" is
universally used as "destroy any trace of" or "exterminate". 

"Reinigen" is "to clean", "Reinigung" is "cleaning". It is also used
as the name of a shop that cleans your cloths. "To purge something of
something-else" ist "etwas von etwas-anderem reinigen" and has a
slightly different (more specific) meaning from "reinigen" alone.


Stephan


-------------------------- It can be done! ---------------------------------
    Please email me as stschulz@informatik.uni-kl.de (Stephan Schulz)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Tim McCarthy:  Idiot or Doofus?
Date: 23 Aug 1994 18:01:44 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 44
Message-ID: <33ddi8$sfk@agate.berkeley.edu>
References:   <03TRBNYS@gwdu03.gwdg.de> 
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
  wrote:

>I am really not impressed with Uwe Roessler's argument that because he is
>German, that makes him an automatic authority on the German language here
>in alt. revisionism. I will put forth here that, definition 2 in both the
>verb and the noun are modern, sort of politically correct terms that are
>newer than definitions 1 for both the verb and noun. That is why they
>appear as the second definition, not the first, I think. As far as these
>other Woerterbucher are concerned, I'm only debating on Langenscheidt's,
>the most widely sold (to say the least) of German dictionaries. 

Uwe Roessler's argument was not that he is German, therefore he is an
authority.  His argument was that he is German, so that makes it harder
for you to lie about the meanings of German words.  His particular argument
about "ausrotten" has nothing to do with his being a German per se.

Hexham's point, that you have to consider what the word "ausrotten"
meant to Himmler, which might not be the same as what it means today,
is not a priori invalid.  It is nonetheless wrong.  As Roessler pointed
out, and our own Newel Post ignored, "ausrotten" is attested as 
meaning "to extirpate" as early as the 16th century.  If you want
to look at historical meanings, then you ought to check out historical
dictionaries rather than a dictionary that happens to be a best seller.

I went to the library and looked up "ausrotten" in the Grimm Brothers'
dictionary (Grimm, J., and W. Girmm, _Deutsches Woerterbuch_, Leipzig:
S. Hirzel, 1854), which predates the use we are interested in by some
ninety years.  They define "ausrotten" as "exstirpare, ausreuten" 
(volume 1, column 940), and give numerous historical citations under
both "ausrotten" (e.g. Joshua 7:9, "und unsern namen ausrotten von der erden")
and "ausreuden" (e.g. Zeph. 1:3 -- Luther's translation -- "ja, ich wil
die menschen ausreuten aus dem lande, spricht der herr.")  The Grimm
brothers' dictionary also mentions (also on column 940; "ausreuden" is
in column 935) under "ausroden" "doch verwendet man die niederdeutsche
form nur fuer die sinnliche bedeutung, nicht fuer die abstracte des
austilgens:  er rodete die baeume aus."

In other words, Roessler is completely right and lamppost completely
wrong.  I doubt this comes as a surprise to anyone, although I'd be
interested in knowing if these historical citations are sufficient for
Hexham.

					Ricahrd Schultz


From: mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Aussrotten
Date: 24 Aug 1994 01:06:38 -0400
Organization: Express Access Online Communications, Greenbelt, MD USA
Message-ID: <33ekgu$cd9@access3.digex.net>
References:   <03TRBNYS@gwdu03.gwdg.de> 

In article ,
  wrote:
>Uwe, the idea that you are in Germany and a German should somehow send a
>jolt of fear through revisionists posting in the USA is somewhat
>"ansonderlich." It gives you no more authority than anyone else posting in
>alt.revisionism. 

    What a laugh.  Tim McCarthy is trying to convince us he knows more
about the German language than someone who has spoken it from birth. 
Tim's proven he doesn't even understand English verb tenses, let alone
German. 


>I want to thank Irving Hexham for the support and his valid argument. Here
>is what Langenscheidt's Grossworterbuch  has to say about
>ausrotten:
>
>>aus rotten v/t  1. (Unkraut etc) uproot, root s.th. out
>>(od. up).
>>2. (Volk, Rasse etc) exterminate, wipe out, kill off 3. fig. (Uebel etc.)
>>eradicate, extirpate (beide a. med.) stamp-out, root out: nicht ausrotten
>- >ineradicable
>>Aus rottung f  1. uprooting (etc) 2. e-s Volkes etc:
>extermination >(Voelkermord) genocide: von der ~ bedrohte (Tier) Art -
>endangered species 3. fig., a. med. >eradication, extirpation
>
>I am really not impressed with Uwe Roessler's argument that because he is
>German, that makes him an automatic authority on the German language here
>in alt. revisionism.  I will put forth here that, definition 2 in both the
>verb and the noun are modern, sort of politically correct terms that are
>newer than definitions 1 for both the verb and noun. That is why they
>appear as the second definition, not the first, I think.

    You don't think very well.  You also don't read very well.  See that
little word in the first definition?  "Unkraut?"  You are such an expert
on the German language, you don't need me to tell you that that means
"weeds."  Do you know what the English word "context" means?  Probably
not. 


>By the way, here is what Langenscheidt's has to say about this new edition
>to their standard reference work: "In its adherence to the time-honoured
>principles embodied by the two volume Muret-Sanders German- English
>Dictionary and its concern to accommodate recent developments both in
>everyday language and specialized fields of knowledge, ..." 
>
>That choking sound you here is Uwe over in Germany choking on his
>Bratwurst and the "yound idealists" here in America choking on their
>macoroni and cheese at the university cafeterias all across America. 

    No, that's us laughing at you for thinking that anyone else would fall 
for such a stupid idea that the text about "recent developments" talking 
about the book as a whole somehow PROVES that the specific definition of 
"ausrotten" as "exterminate" is one of those "recent developments."  As 
someone else has posted, the "exterminate" meaning of "ausrotten" can be 
traced back to Martin Luther.

    How modern a development is the Protestant Reformation, Tim?  Need a 
hint?

-- 
Mike Stein			The above represents the Absolute Truth.
POB 10420			Therefore it cannot possibly be the official
Arlington, VA  22210		position of my employer.


From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: A Quick Reply to Schlomo
Date: 24 Aug 1994 11:55:29 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Message-ID: <33fcfh$mc3@agate.berkeley.edu>
References:   <33ddi8$sfk@agate.berkeley.edu> 

In article ,
  wrote:

>Schlomo,
>
>Are you trying to say Luther had gas chambers way back when?? I'm not
>"completely wrong" here, Langenscheidt's is the dictionary in Germany, not
>this fairy tale book of Brother's Grimm or whatever you're using. As far
>as "ausreuden and ausreuten, what exactly are you getting into here? The
>word under discussion is ausrotten. 

The issue under discussion was whether when Himmler used the word "ausrotten"
could he have meant "exterminate"?  I did not say that Luther has gas
chambers.  What I said was that the use of the word "ausrotten" to mean
"exterminate" is cited as far back as the seventeenth century, which means
that it is perfectly plausible that Himmler could have used it with this
meaning.  Furthermore, it demonstrates that your contention that the meaning
of "ausrotten" as "exterminate" postdates the Second World War is completely
bogus.

It does not surprise me in the least that you have no clue about what the
Grimm brothers really did for a living.  They were in fact among Europe's
most significant philolgists during the nineteenth century, and in fact
they collected the tales they published as "Kinder und Hausmaerchen" as
a byproduct of their philological research.  As for why I took the trouble
of including "ausreuten" and "ausroden", it was to further illustrate that
Uwe Roessler's point that "ausrotten" and "ausroden" had diverged in
meaning is also supported by sources that *predate* Himmler's use of 
"ausrotten".  

I have no illusions that any of this will make any difference to you.
In fact, I would say you are far too tiresome to even be a reasonable
contender for Internet kook of the month.  Sorry Michael.

Finally, I do sort of wonder what made you pick "Schlomo" rather than,
say "Shmuelik" or "Shimshon".  Was it intended to be a compliment to
my superior wisdom?

				Richard Schultz

From: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu (Jamie McCarthy)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Aussrotten
Date: Wed, 24 Aug 1994 09:43:00 -0400
Organization: University of Michigan
Lines: 42
Message-ID: 
References: 
   
   <03TRBNYS@gwdu03.gwdg.de>
   
   <33ekgu$cd9@access3.digex.net>

mstein@access3.digex.net (Michael P. Stein) wrote:

> landpost@clark.net wrote:
>
> >I want to thank Irving Hexham for the support and his valid argument. Here
> >is what Langenscheidt's Grossworterbuch  has to say about
> >ausrotten:
> >
> >>aus rotten v/t  1. (Unkraut etc) uproot, root s.th. out
> >>(od. up).
> >>2. (Volk, Rasse etc) exterminate, wipe out, kill off 3. fig. (Uebel etc.)
> >>eradicate, extirpate (beide a. med.) stamp-out, root out: nicht ausrotten
> >- >ineradicable
> >>Aus rottung f  1. uprooting (etc) 2. e-s Volkes etc:
> >extermination >(Voelkermord) genocide: von der ~ bedrohte (Tier) Art -
> >endangered species 3. fig., a. med. >eradication, extirpation
> 
>     You don't think very well.  You also don't read very well.  See that
> little word in the first definition?  "Unkraut?"  You are such an expert
> on the German language, you don't need me to tell you that that means
> "weeds."

Yep yep yep.

My compact Langenscheidt's says:
ausrott-en (26) _Pflanze, a. fig._: root out;  _fig._ eradicate, extirpate;
_Volk_: exterminate;  -ung _f_ eradication, extermination.

So "root out" is a fine translation...if you're talking about Unkraut or
Pflanze.  (Weeds or plants.)

Apparently Mr. Tim McCarthy believes that Himmler et al. were talking about
_plants_ that they were going to uproot.  That speech at Poznan where
Himmler said he was going to ausrotten a bunch of Jews...he wasn't
addressing thousands of high-ups in the SS, he must have been talking to
a _gardening class_.

Mr. Tim McCarthy, please present your one or two best pieces of evidence
that Jews are plants.
-- 
 Jamie McCarthy   Internet: k044477@hobbes.kzoo.edu   AppleLink: j.mccarthy
 I speak for no one but myself.


From: schultz@garnet.berkeley.edu (Richard Schultz)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: High-level stupidity from Hexham (Ausrotten)
Date: 26 Aug 1994 17:01:02 GMT
Organization: Philosophers of the Dangerous Maybe
Lines: 59
Message-ID: <33l74e$8d0@agate.berkeley.edu>
References:  
NNTP-Posting-Host: garnet.berkeley.edu

In article ,
Irving Hexham  wrote:

>. . .You cannot use a dictionary written twenty or thirty years after an
>event to provide a dogmatic defintion of a word. Neither, can you
>appeal to a figure living in the sixteenth century, Luther, to
>support later definitions.

This is just plain stupid.  It seems to me that if you find a dictionary
written in 1854, and it says that "ausrotten" carried the meaning of
"extirpate" from at least the 1500's onwards, and then you find a 
dictionary written in the 1960's (or 1970's or 1980's) that says
"ausrotten" means "extirpate", the reasonable assumption is that it
did not change its meaning at some point in between and then changed
back.  I personally would consider any historian who thought that the
issue merited further analysis to "prove" that the meaning stayed constant
in between was somewhat less than competent.  Remember: for this 
hypothesis of yours to be true, the word must have changed its meaning
and *then changed back to the old one*.  That is such a (let us say)
counterintuitive thing to assert that it strikes me that the burden
of proof is on you.

>. . .But, ultimately contemporary usage is
>the only guide. This means both dictionaries pulbished in the
>Nazi era and examples of word usage in Nazi and other documents.
>
>Now, I have no doubt that aussrotten means exterminate. But,
>having no doubt and proving it are two different things. Normally
>people do rely on standard definitions. But, when usage is
>challenged on historical grounds, as it has been by the
>revisionists, a historical answer is the only acceptable
>evidence. To provide other definitions, repeat ones point, get
>mad or ridicule anyone who suggests otherwise, is simply not
>acceptable.

I do not have all that much time on my hands to devote to this issue,
and as I said, it is really for someone who thinks the meaning has 
changed to prove his case.  Nonetheless, I was able to dig up a copy
of the 1939 edition of _Cassell's New German and English Dictionary_
(Breul, Karl; revised and enlarged by J. H. Lepper and R. Kottenhahn,
New York:  Funk and Wagnall's, 1939; the German-English part had been
published separately in 1936).  I assume that this counts as a dictionary
published in the Nazi era.  Under the entry "ausrotten", we find the following:

*ausrotten* : extirpate, exterminate, root out.
*-er* : extirpator.
*-ung* : extermination.
*Ausrottungskrieg* : war of extermination.

My initial response is "game, set, and match", but I can foresee Hexham's
response already:  this is a German-English dictionary, not a German-German
one; it was written in 1936, not 1944; it reflects some standard usage,
not that of whichever dialect Himmler spoke; etc.

-- 
				Richard Schultz

"It is terrible to die of thirst in the ocean.  Do you have to salt your
truth so heavily that it does not even quench thirst any more?"


Article 17263 of alt.revisionism:
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!newstf01.cr1.aol.com!newsbf01.news.aol.com!not-for-mail
From: dbtgthomas@aol.com (DbtgThomas)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Aussrotten
Date: 8 Oct 1994 10:26:04 -0400
Organization: America Online, Inc. (1-800-827-6364)
Lines: 17
Sender: news@newsbf01.news.aol.com
Message-ID: <376a5s$jra@newsbf01.news.aol.com>
References: 
NNTP-Posting-Host: newsbf01.news.aol.com

In article , charles11@delphi.com writes:

As most seem to do, you give the definition of ausrotten as to extirpate
or exterminate.  Many German dictionaries also include the definition "to
uproot", which happens also to be a definition of extirpate, "to pull up
by the roots".  But all dictionary definitions do is list the
possibilities, generally excluding slang useage.  I still think this
question should be addressed, if at all, by either a qualified German
linguist or several older Germans whose knowledge of this not commonly
used word would date to the period in question.  I put it to one fellow
who had to dredge back into his memory before suddenly exclaiming that it
meant to get rid of rats and mice.  The word predates modern fumigation
techniques.  Perhaps it means "send out the cats"?  More likely it was
meant as an expression of extreme contempt, equating a group of people
with rats.

One more opinion for this confusing heap.


Article 17463 of alt.revisionism:
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!news.bc.net!vanbc.wimsey.com!scipio.cyberstore.ca!math.ohio-state.edu!howland.reston.ans.net!pipex!uunet!Germany.EU.net!news.dfn.de!gs.dfn.de!gwdu03.gwdg.de!uroessl1
From: uroessl1@gwdu03.gwdg.de (Roessler  Ulrich)
Subject: Re: Aussrotten
Message-ID: 
Organization: GWDG, Goettingen
References:  <37aacc$n29@newsbf01.news.aol.com> <37aiq1$4j3@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM> 
Date: Tue, 11 Oct 1994 23:56:08 GMT
Lines: 35

landpost@clark.net writes:

...

>Also, the word "Ausrottung", I have suggested, can only be found in
>context with the word "Judenevakuierung" nearby.

...

>Tim McCarthy
>landpost@clark.net

It's time again for some easy exercises in German. Please Mr landpost 
show some examples (with references!) for this astonishing statement.
Is there any syntactical rule in German, that 'Judenevakuierung' 
comes always in close connection with 'Ausrottung' ?

From: "Ereignismeldung UdSSR Nr.151"  5.1.1942:

"Der Hoehere SS- und Polizeifuehrer in Riga, SS-Obergruppenfuehrer
"Jeckeln, hat inzwischen eine Erschiessungsaktion in Angriff genommen
"und am Sonntag, dem 30.11.41, ca. 4000 des Rigaer Ghettos und eines
"Evakuierungstransportes aus dem Reich beseitigt.

BA,R 58/215-220

[The Higher SS and Police leader in Riga, SS-Obergruppenfuehrer 
 Jeckeln, has undertaken now an action of executions by shooting
 and on Sunday 30.1.41 he has eliminated about 4000 Jews from 
 the Riga ghetto and from one evacuation transport from the Reich.]

May be, Mr. landpost could amend this translation at least and at last, 
or he might add the necessary context.

u.roessler                                          uroessl1@gwdg.de



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