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Shofar FTP Archive File: people/g/grese.irma/belsen-trial.256

From Wed Jan  1 10:45:50 PST 1997
Article: 90371 of alt.revisionism
From: (Mike Curtis)
Newsgroups: alt.revisionism
Subject: Re: Blackmore's obtuse Postings
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 1997 17:14:46 GMT
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Path:!!!!!!!!!!!!uunet!!!! wrote:

This post sums up Blackmore and deniers for what they are. They have
the gall to accuse historians and many of us here of handling the
history of the Holocaust like a religion. No good historian accepts
something historical as gospel without the proper substantiation.
Let's look at what Blackmore has said now!

>  On Fri, 27 Dec 1996 22:31:01 -0700, (Mark Van
> Alstine) wrote:

rblackmore writes:
> I don't believe your witness who claims she saw Grese beat someone to
> death.  
Mark Van Alstine) wrote:
>And your evidence of such is what exactly, Mr. Belling? 

rblackmore writes:
>I don't need evidence.  I said I don't believe her.

He doesn't need evidence! Blackmore just chooses NOT to believe this
witness because it interferes with his denial game. To hell with
substantiation and in this case the rule of legal testimony.

>  It is up to you to provide
>evidence that what she alleged was true.

No, we do not. The Judges believed this particular witness or they
didn't. The judges did believe the presentation and the defense was
unable to restore their client by impeaching the witness. Your
opinions do not matter a twig in this discussion. We are already aware
of your bias and inclinations. What you use to back up your opinion is
of much more value here that an empty "because I say so" argument.
A pattern was presented for the accused Grese that was unique to her
and to the other accused. As a pattern grows and more people testify
as to what they saw then the picture the defense has to overcome is
clear. This they were unable to do. 

>  it was not provided at the Belsen
>trial, so I doubt whether you shall provide it today.  As it is, I am still waiting for
>the Larson autopsy reports......rb

The case was made conclusively at the Belsen trial no matter how much
you whine. Yale has told you where to find the reports so go and get

> I happen to know that gratuitous beatings of inmates at Auschwitz
> were strictly prohibited.  
>Where yo there, Mr. Belling? Or are you simply _assuming_ that because
>"officially" such mistreatment of prisoners was suppossedly prohibited, it
>didn't happen? How do you explain your "knowing" in light of numerous
>testimonies by Nazis and inmates that such beatings took place and were
>actually quite common? 
>COMMENT:  These statements, without factual evidence, are irrelevant and prove nothing.
>Yet, such beatings were indeed prohibited.--rb

The question isn't if the rules "prohibited the beatings, but rather
if the rule was idle as far as prisoners were concerned.

Grese under prosecution questioning by Col. Backhouse:

[page 256]

Were you allowed to beat people? -- No.

So it was not a question of having orders from your superiors to do
it. You did this against orders, did you? -- Yes.

[Blackmore should note the above admission.]

Were you the only person who beat prisoners against regulations? -- I
do not know.

Did you ever see anyone else beat prisoners? -- Yes.

[Then she does know that others beat prisoners against regulations.
Blackmore tries to tell us that this wasn't a fuzzy rule in the camps.
Is Grese hedging around here?]

Did you sometimes get orders to do so? -- No.

Did you give orders to other Aufseherinnen working under you to beat
prisoners? -- Yes.

[Here is Grese giving orders that Blackmore continually _used_ to say
that she could not give. He just said *orders* and did not specify the
*kind* of orders. The point in this testimony is that she had no
authority to give orders to beat other prisoners and yet, she did.]

Had you the right to give such authorization? -- No.

[Apparently she had no fear of the consequences concerning the
violation of this rule.]


> Your witness never names the alleged victim or
> the alleged person who was with her. 
>Why should this be this required Mr. Belling? Just so that you can toss
>one more stumbling block in the path of truth? 
>COMMENT:  It would not be a stumbing bloc had she at least had a NAME for
>these alleged victims.  Her testimony strikes me as being hysterical and completely

Let's see. I wonder how many individuals named the victims they saw
blow up in the Oklahoma bombing. Names, Blackmore, were not required
by the charges unless actual names were mentioned.

>  The very idea of little Irma Grese beating people to death with her
> whip is a joke.  
>>  >
>>  >Ah, yes, the "cellophane" whip. But Olga Lengyel simply called it a whip
>>  >and noted that Grese "made liberal use" of it and that the prisoners'
>>  >"shrieks of pain" and "spurts of blood made her smile." (Lengyel, _Five
>>  >Chimneys_, pp.103-104.) And Grese also beat her with pistol and fists as
>>  >well:
>COMMENT:  This sounds like more fabricated, nonsense again, similar to "the angel
>of Death" nonsense, which was obviously copied from the Mengele pattern and used
>as a form of "artistic license" to paint the most horrifying picture possible.  A droll, truthful,
>report would not have sold many copies....she had to demonize her guards in a mythological

Did you carry a stick at Auschwitz? -- Yes, an ordinary walking-stick.

Did you carry a whip at Auschwitz? -- Yes, made out of cellophane in
the weaving factory in the camp. It was a very light whip, but if I
hit somebody with it, it would hurt. After eight days Kommandant
Kramer prohibited whips, but we nevertheless went on using them, I
never carried a rubber truncheon.

Sorry, Blackmore, but she carried a stick and a whip and she admitted
using them to beat internees. Next question?

>>  	Ah, yes, second only to a wet noodle in lethality.  
>>  >"...With calculated deliberation, she took her revolver from her desk and
>>  >advanced toward me. We were a striking , I, close-cropped, clad in rags,
>>  >dirty, drenched from the rain, and she with her coiffed hair, her striking
>>  >beauty, and her artful makeup. Her impeccably tailored suit showed off her
>>  >lovely figure.
>COMMENT:  Typical Hollywood drama.  This sounds so absurd.  By the way, Greses
>never sported "coiffed hair" at Auschwitz.  Another invention among many by your witness.--rb

She didn't? You were there again?! 

>>  	Sounds more like female jealousy here.  
>>  >"'You swine,' she hissed between her teeth. I cringed from the cold barrel
>>  >of her revolver as she passed it over my left temple. I felt her hot
>>  >breath. 'You're afraid, aren't you?'
>COMMENT:  Listen to the dialogue again...."You swine, she HISSED between
>her teeth.  I CRINGED from the COLD BARREL of her revolver......More artistic license,
>the descriptions are direct out of a Peter Lorre film......and revolvers were not standard issue
>to concentration camp overseers...another lie.--rb 

Fabrications just flow from Blackmore's.

[page 256 of _The Belsen Trial_]

You affected heavy top-boots and you liked to walk around with a
revolver strapped on your waist and a whip in your had, did you not?
-- I did not like it.

[Ahh, but she did it. He had the boots, she had the whip and she had
the revolver, folks, but the poor girl did not like it.]

You thought it very clever to have a whip made in the factory and even
when the Kommandant told you to stop using it you went on, did you
not? -- Yes.

[A resounding YES echos through the halls of justice. The Witness
admits disobeying orders from her comanding officer!]

What was this whip really made of? -- Cellophane paper plaited like a
pigtail. It was translucent like white glass.

[The Nazi Grese is proud of this illegal whip.]

The type of whip you would use for a horse? -- Yes.

Then most of these prisoners who said they saw you carrying a riding
whip were not far wrong, were they? -- No, they were not wrong.

[Oops. Who is Blackmore going to believe now?]

Did the other Aufseherinnen have these whips made too? -- No.

[This goes to my point above that Grese was unique in this respect.]

It was just your bright idea? -- Yes.

[She did this thing all by her lonesome.]

In Lager "C" you used to carry a walking-stick, too, and sometimes you
beat people with the whip and sometimes with the stick? -- Yes.

[Another resounding YES!]

>COMMENT:  Of course, what else could come after the scenes depicted above, but
>Irma Grese dispatching people to the rumored "gas chambers"...It is obvious Olga
>was hoping for a movie contract bid with those descriptions.  Send it on to Spielberg,
>it ought to be more humorous than Schindler's list, and that was a riot.--rb

There is nothing humorous about these appalling events. 
>>  	What Grese only got from rumor this woman knows about even though
>>  she never saw one either.  
>>  >> Grese was innocent.  
>>  >
>>  >Grese was a sadistic torturer who selected prisoners for death in the gas
>>  >chambers at Auschwitz. 
>COMMENT:  Because YOU say so.....rb

Because she admitted to it, acted the part and her defense could not
overcome the evidence against her.


Mike Curtis 
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