Archive/File: people/b/butz.arthur butz.006 Last-Modified: 1994/10/29 See Also: ~/butz.002 From oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish Mon Sep 5 15:44:55 PDT 1994 Article: 15867 of alt.revisionism Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Path: oneb!hakatac!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!howland.reston.ans.net!spool.mu.edu!sdd.hp.com!col.hp.com!csn!csus.edu!netcom.com!codfish From: email@example.com (Ross Vicksell) Subject: Butz's version of CNN show Message-ID:
Keywords: Butz Organization: NETCOM On-line Communication Services (408 261-4700 guest) Date: Sat, 3 Sep 1994 02:40:25 GMT Lines: 300 As some of you may recall, Ken McVay posted an item a while back purporting to show how Arthur Butz was cowed by a righteous, albeit somewhat obscure, survivor, on a national TV talk shoe. I was unable to get a video of the show from the CNN tape library. It apparently was not one of their all-time best sellers; the guy at the tape library said no one had ever requested it before. There's an outside chance one could get a tape or transcript of the show from of the U.S. Holocaust Museum or the Simon Wiesenthal Center. I was just at the H. museum but I clean forgot to check. I also contacted Butz. I'm including in this post my letter to him (which incorporates McVay's post) and his responses. Ross Vicksell ************************************************************************ COMMITTEE FOR OPEN DEBATE ON THE HOLOCAUST (CODOH) Director: Bradley R. Smith Box 3267 Visalia CA 93278 Tel/Fax: (209) 733 2653 _________________________________________________________________________ Regional Directors: Andrew Allen(Northwest)Fax:(415)435-3166 David Cole(Southwest)Tel:(310)836-0211 Robert Countess, Ph.D. (South) Rolf Hermes(Texas) Tel/Fax: (210)519-8325 Ross Vicksell(New England) Tel/Fax: (617)272-0321 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear Dr. Butz, I'm the CODOH person in New England. Fritz Berg and I have been participating in the "alt.revisionism" discussion group on Internet, where we are greatly outnumbered by exterminationists. Situation normal. One of them posted the following the other day. I would like you to comment on it, if you would be so kind. ... Thanks, Ross Vicksell ******************************************************************** Xref: netcom.com alt.revisionism:14550 Path: netcom.com!csus.edu!csulb.edu!nic-nac.CSU.net!usc!howland.reston.ans.net!europa.eng.gtefsd.com!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!nntp.cs.ubc.ca!mala.bc.ca!hakatac!oneb!kmcvay Newsgroups: alt.revisionism Subject: BUTZ: "I don't want to hear anymore of this!" Message-ID: <1994Jul11.firstname.lastname@example.org> From: email@example.com (Ken Mcvay) Date: Mon, 11 Jul 94 04:35:12 GMT Organization: The Old Frog's Almanac Summary: An Auschwitz survivor confronts Butz head-on - Butz turns tail and runs .. Lines: 145 Archive/File: holocaust/usa/ihr butz.002 Last-Modified: 1994/07/05 "Voice of An Auschwitz Survivor" A Survivor Fights Denials Including a Media Debate with Arthur Butz and An Account of This Survivor's Work in the Auschwitz Crematorium by Lilli Kopecky In my monograph, "In the Shadow of the Flames,"<1> I stated in the preface to Lecture 5<2> that the first comprehensive study dealing with neo-Nazism and denials of the Holocaust was published to my knowledge in 1977 by the "Public Committee of Survivors of Auschwitz and Other Extermination Camps" in Israel, of which I was SEcretary General until 1988. I wrote there of my conviction that we, the concentration camp survivors, have the moral obligation and sacred duty to warn the world so that the tragedy of our past may not be forgotten and repeated! In this article, I only want to prove that even ONE person -- alone but unafraid -- can and should act in order to be heard. As I wrote in "In the Shadow of the Flames" (pp. 58-59), one of the very vicious books in the 1970s, "The Hoax of the Twentieth Century" by Arthur R. Butz attempts to refute proven facts of the Holocaust and, indeed, the Holocaust itself.<3> In trying to fill the gap in historical revisionism, the author reconstructs the actual evolution of knowledge in the U.S. with regard to the gas chamber atrocities -- knowledge based, in his opinion, solely on the propaganda of the Nuremberg Trial in 1946, and states that no German documents from Auschwitz mention a gas chamber. He cites a document from the construction firm of Topf and Sons in Erfurt which makes reference to a "Fergasungskeller" (gassing cellar). However, Butz, with his knowledge of engineering, tries to explain this as a "gas generation cellar" for igniting the crematoria used for disposing of those who had died in the camps from presumably natural cuases. To the great delight of German neo-Nazis, a German translation of this book is on the market. On April 30, 1981, I had the singular opportunity of challenging Butz to his face on the "Freeman Reports," a television program carried by Cable News Network (CNN) and broadcast to hundreds of thousands of viewers. I conversed by phone with him from the studios of CNN in Hollywood, California. I pointed out to Butz that his skillfully constructed lies collapse readily in the face of evidence offered by the following primary sources: (a) Testimonies of hundreds of former Auschwitz prisoners, especially "Sonderkommando" survivors, as well as SS officers, taken during the Auschwitz Trial before the court in Frankfurt am Main. (b) Notable memoirs by SS offficers, including those of the Auschwitz commandant Rudolf Hoess, Perry Broad of the SS Political Department, and the diary of Dr. Kremer. (c) Published manuscripts of "Sonderkommando" prisoners<4> which were buried and found on the grounds of the Auschwitz-Birkenau crematoria. (d) About two hundred authentic photographs made by the SS "Erkennungsdienst" (SS photographers) in Auschwitz-Birkenau, recording the arrivals, selections, and marches towards the gas chambers of Jews deported in 1944 from Hungary. (e) Three photos made by the Auschwitz resistance movement showing "Sonderkommando" members at work. (f) Reprints of the authentic detailed ground plans of the four crematoria with eight gas chambers in Birkenau. These plans were smuggled out of the SS Construction Office in Auschwitz and sent to the Swiss Consulate in Prague in 1944.<5> Their authenticity is verified by checks with the gas chamber ruins, now part of the Polish Museum in Oswiecim (Auschwitz), and against American aerial reconnaissance photographs from 1944.<6> I had scarcely finished this list when Butz said, "I don't want to hear any more of this." Pointing my finger at him, I said, "Dr. Butz, you are a liar. Sue me!" He only answered, "I'm hanging up now," and broke off our conversation without responding to the challenge. I feel that such open and direct confrontation is for now the best way to expose these fabricators of "facts." In the same broadcast, I stated that -- except for the "Sonderkommando" -- I am, to my knowledge, the only person to be brought regularly (in 1943 and 1944) into the old Auschwitz crematorium. My presence in the crematorium was kept very secret and I was always threatened with death if I would tell anybody where I have been. I had to fill -- directly from the oversn -- the urns for German inmates (non-Jews) who had died and whose families had paid for the urns. I was brought there by my boss, Unterscharfuehrer Albrecht, then head of the Auschwitz crematorium, from the Registrar's Office where I worked as a typist. Thus I had direct knowledge of the gas chamber. I have been there! NOTES: 1. Kopecky, Lilli, "In the Shadow of the Flames. Six Lectures on the Holocaust," Witness to the Holocaust Project, Emory University, Atlanta, Georgia, 1982. 2. Ibid. Lecture 5, "Holocaust Denials, Neo-Nazism, Anti-Semitism, Radicalism and Terrorism." 3. Butz, Arthur, R. The Hoax of the Twentieth Century. Historical Review Press: Richmond, England, 1975. 0Butz has a Ph.D. in electrical engineering and is a tenured professor at Northwestern University which in the face of many protests over the years has insisted on retaining him on the basis of "academic freedom." 4. Sonderkommando (translated Special Detatchment). Its members had to pull the corpses (after being gassed) out of the gas chambers and bring them into the overs or, in 1944, when there was not enough space in the ovens, burn the corpses on the stakes. 5. Taken from the office by Vera Foltynova, smuggled by the underground into Prague to the non-Jewish wife of Ota Kraus and given to the Swiss Consulate for safekeeping. Source: Erich Kulka. 6. Central Intelligence Agency, "The Holocaust Revisited; A Retrospective Analysis of the Auschwitz-Birkenau Extermination Complex. Prepared by Dino Brugioni and Robert Poirier, February, 1979. Source: Internet on the Holocaust and Genocide - an international information resource exchange towards understanding, intervention and prevention of genocide. Published by the Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide, P.O. Box 10311, Jerusalem, Israel. (Telephone and Fax: 972-2-720424) Issue 48 - April, 1994 -- --------------------------The Old Frog's Almanac------------------------- "However, it is sophistry to proclaim that something must have happened a certain way because your `reason' demands it." (Greg Raven, Institute for Historical Review) ************************************************************************ July 20, 1994 Dear Mr. Vicksell, In reply to your inquiry postmarked July 14, I did have a very brief encounter with CNN. It was around 1981. I have attached some notes I made on Feb. 13, 1986 when wild claims were made as to what I had said. >From the program, I remember only the actor Robert Clary. I do not recall ever having heard of Lilli Kopecky in any connection, but it is possible she was also somehow involved in that program. Cooper's 1986 account of what I said is invented out of thin air. I certainly didn't get "about four or five minutes' to have my "say", and I didn't say what he claimed. Kopecky account of 1994 is probably a concoction, too. On internal evidence, one should be suspicious of her, since she reports pointing her finger at me through a telephone connection, a very good trick! The remarks she put in my mouth do not sound like me, and I am sure there was no exploration of the matters of her items (a)-(f) while I was connected; the encounter was much too emotional for that. Best Regards, Arthur R. Butz --------------------------------------------------------------------- Feb. 13, 1986 Today I got a cassette from David McCalden purporting to be the record of a meeting held Jan 19 at the Temple Beth Am in Los Angeles. Mel Mermelstein said he attended a lecture by Elie Wiesel who "cried in front of hundreds and hundreds of teachers" that he had gotten "a letter and a postcard from a professor (Faurisson) who said that the Holocaust is nothing but a hoax and that the chimneys of Auschwitz are only those of the bakery." Rabbi Abraham Cooper, Associate Dean of the Simon Wiesenthal Center and co-editor of Response, had a very strange idea of what I said when I was on the telephone with CNN-TV in Atlanta a few years ago. I was connected by telephone only and had not seen the program on TV. My recollection is that I said only a few words and that Robert Clary made such a scene that I had no opportunity to say anything more. My recollection does not resemble Rabbi Cooper's account, which seems to implicitly report that he, Cooper, was present during the production of the program. Speaking first of Robert Clary, Cooper said: when we first met Robert and a number of other survivors were on on a CNN television program out of Atlanta ... (Butz) wasn't on the screen but (the moderator) let him go through his say and after about four or five minutes the moderator in disgust finally interrupted and said "now listen here. You're a professor but you've heard everything these people have said. If you saw the show you saw the materials that the Nazis, the Germans themselves, took. How in the world can deny what happened?" And I think that Butz's answer that day was probably the most honest statement he has ever made in his adult life. He said "O do not believe Auschwitz happened because I'm more comfortable not believing Auschwitz happened. I'm more comfortable believing that Auschwitz did not happpen" ... I think for someone like Butz there's a lot for us to learn from, a, in a sense an off the cuff gut statement like that from that professional bigot. ********************************************************************** July 23, 1994 Dear Mr. Vicksell, Since mailing you my letter of July 20 it occurred to me that the statements Kopecky attributed to me ("I don't want to hear any more of this ... I'm hanging up now") might have been uttered by me in reaction to Clary's rantings, the precise content of which I don't remember. However I could not have reacted that way to points such as her (a) - (f) in the Internet message, regardless of by whom uttered. Best Regards, Arthur R. Butz
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