[Thread from another network discussing Einsatzgruppen reports and their
significance in the extermination program. The discussion begins with a
denial opponent providing documentation regarding the Einsatzgruppen] 

The following several messages are from the Einsatzgruppen Reports. The number
of the report and the date will be noted with each excerpt. The Einsatzgruppen
reported on their activities to their respective headquarters which sent the
information to Berlin. There the RSHA compiled concise reports in the name of
the Chief of Sipo and the SD. Copies were distributed to high- ranking army,
police and SS officers, diplomats, members of the foreign office an even to
industrialists as they related to economic factors in the Soviet territories.

The Einsatzgruppen Reports were discovered by the U.S.Army in Gestapo
headquarters in Berlin after the war. They were initially impounded by a
research analyst attached to the Berlin branch of the Office of the Chief of
Council for War Crimes. They were sealed and transported in the custody of the
US Army to Nuremberg. During the first days of the Einsatzgruppen Trial, the
authenticity of the reports was established beyond doubt and none of the
German defendants challenged their validity.

After the trial, the original reports were sent to the National Archives in
Washington, DC. In 1960 they were given to the Bundesarchiv in Koblenz.
Photocopies of all the reports remain in the National Archives and at Yad
Vashem in Jerusalem.


                  Operational Situation Report USSR No. 17

                                              7.July.1941

 According to instructions by RSHA, liquidations of government and party
 officials, in all named cities of Byelorussia, were carried out. Concerning
 the Jews, according to orders, the same policy was adopted. The exact number
 of the liquidated has not as yet been established.


                  Operational Situation Report USSR No. 19

                                              11.July.1941

 In Kaunas, up to now a total of 7,800 Jews have been liquidated, partly
 through pogroms and partly through shooting by Lithuanian Kommandos. All of
 the corpses have been removed. Further mass shootings are no longer possible.
 Therefore, I summoned a Jewish committee and explained that up to now we had
 no reason to interfere with the internal arrangements between the Lithuanians
 and the Jews.

                 Operational Situation Report USSR No. 106

                                             7.October.1941

In agreement with the city military command, all the Jews of Kiev were ordered
to appear at a certain place on Monday, 29 September, by 6 o'clock. This order
was publicized by posters all over the town by members of the newly organized
Ukrainian militia. At the same time, oral information was passed that all the
Jews of Kiev would be moved to another place. In cooperations with the HQ of
EGC and two Kommandos of the police regiment South, Sonderkommando 4a executed
33,771 Jews on September 29 and 30.

[NOTE: This took place in the ravine of Babi Yar outside of Kiev.]

                  Operational Situation Report USSR No. 111

                                              12.October.1941

 These were the reasons for the executions carried out by the Kommandos:
 political officials; plundereres and saboteurs; active Communists and
 political representatives; Jews who gained their release from prison camps by
 false statements; agents and informers of the NKVD; persons who by false
 depositions and witness influencing were instrumental in the deportation of
 ethnic Germans; Jewish sadism and revenge; undesirable elements; partisans;
 politruks; danger of plague and epidemics; members of Russian bands; armed
 insurgents; supplying Russian bands; rebels and agitators; drifting
 juveniles; JEWS IN GENERAL. [emphasis mine]

                  Operational Situation Report USSR No. 117

                                              18.October.1941

 The districts occupied by the Kommandos were cleansed of Jews. 4,091 Jews and
 46 Communists were executed during the time span covered by the report,
 bringing the total to 40,699 [for the period of 1-15 October 1941 by
 Einsatzgruppen D].

                  Operational Situation Report USSR No. 126

                                              27.October.1941

 The difficulties in carrying out such a large action - first of all with
 respect to sowing disunity - were overcome in Kiev by a call via posters to
 the Jewish population that they were to move.

 Although at the start, one could count on the participation of about 5,000-
 6,000 Jews, more than 30,000 Jews turned up who, due to extraordinarily
 skillful organization, believed in the transfer right up to the moment of
 their execution.

 Thus, even if about 75,000 Jews had been liquidated so far, it has already
 become clear that a solution of the Jewish question will not be possible in
 this way. True, we have succeeded in bringing about a total solution to the
 Jewish problem, particularly in smaller towns and also in the villages.
 However, in bigger towns it was observed that all the Jews have disappeared
 after such an execution.

                  Operational Situation Report USSR No. 173

                                              25.February.1941

 In the course of a routine Security Police screening of an additional part of
 the civilian population around Leningrad, 140 more people had to be shot. The
 reasons for this were as follows:

 a)   Active participation in the Communist Party before the arrival of the
      German troops;

 b)   Seditious and provocative activity since the arrival of the German Army;

 c)   Partisan activity;

 d)   Espionage;

 e)   Belonging to the Jewish race.

So, from the Einsatzgruppen Reports we learn that Jews were being executed for
no reason other than being Jewish, that these reports were being transmitted
to Berlin and that these executions continued. From this we can conclude that
Berlin did indeed order these executions. After all, Report 17 states that the
executions were ordered and, if this was false, it is reasonable to expect
that that misconception would be corrected quickly.  However, almost 8 months
later executions are still taking place because individuals belong to the
"Jewish race."

In Report 126 we learn that these executions are considered part of the Final
Solution. This not only supports the conclusion that the Einsatzgruppen were
performing these executions based upon orders but also that this was just a
part of a bigger program to solve the "Jewish question."

From this, even though a small fraction of the evidence has been presented, to
conclude anything other than the fact that there was an extermination program
against the Jews would defy Occam's Razor.

[The Holocaust denier responds with the following remarks]

However, you mention reports. Let's talk about some of the reports  you have
omitted reproducing. How about no. 127, from 31.Oct..1941,  which states:
  "In this area the Security Police has come up against two major  groups of
adversaries. They are: 1) the Jews, 2) those once active in  the former Soviet
regime ... In this regard it should be pointed out  that in the Ukraine, those
who sympathized with the Soviets were  prodominantly Jews ... It can now be
stated without reservation that  the Jews were, without exception, supporters
of Bolshevism.
  "Over and over again, particularly in the cities, the Jews are  cited as the
real Soviet rulers who exploited the people with  indescribable brutality and
delivered them to their deaths at the  hands of the NKVD. The (German Security
Police) units have carried  out approximately 10,000 interrogations during the
past four months.  Again and again, the Jews were cited as having worked
actively for  the Soviets, if not in responsible positions then at least as
agents,  collaborators or informers. Not a single Jewsh corpse had been found
in any of the numerous mass graves. In any case, it is evident that  the Jews
share the greatest guilt with others for the slaughter of  the Ukrainian
people and the ethnic Germans.
  "For this reason, special measures against the Jews are considered
necessary by the Security Police." --- You might have mentioned the reports of
24.July.1941 and 5.Aug.1941,  which refer to the establishment of Jewish
health centers in the  newly-created Jewish ghettos to prevent the outbreak of
diseases. --- You might have mentioned the report of 12.Sept.1941 (no. 81),
which  shows how relieved the Einsatzgruppen was to find large numbers of
Jews gone upon entering areas previously under Soviet control.
  "During the first weeks considerable numbers of Jews fell under our
control, whereas in the central and eastern Ukrainian districts it  has been
observed that in many cases 70 to 90 percent, and sometimes  100 percent, of
the Jewish population has fled. This can be seen as  an indirect result of the
work of the Einsatzgruppen, since the  removal at no cost of hundreds of
thousands of Jews --- most of them  reportedly to beyond the Urals ---
represents a considerable  contribution to the solution of the Jewish question
in Europe." --- When you made reference to the "Final Solution," you might
have  reminded everyone that this did not mean extermination. This was
pointed up in report 63, 25.Aug.1941:
  "Slowly but surely, one of the most important problems, the  SOLUTION OF THE
JEWISH QUESTION, is being tackled. In Kishiven, there  were approximately 60-
80 thousand Jews before the war. Most of them  were deported with the
withdrawal of the Russians. When the city was  captured, there were only about
4,000 Jews present, but that number  has since increased. Upon the initiative
of the Einsatzkomando the  Rumanian city commander established a Jewish ghetto
in the old city  which currently contains about 9,000 Jews. The Jews are being
 organized into work groups and assigned to various German and  Rumanian units
for clean-up work and other kinds of labor." --- On the topic of the casualty
figures, you forgot to mention that  historians Reitlinger, Hilberg, Shirer,
Paget, Maser, Bauer, Cargas,  Krausnick, and Wilhelm acknowledge that these
figures bear little  resemblance to reality. For that matter, the testimony of
 Einsatzgruppen defendants Blobel and Nosske bear this out. Even  Ohlendorf,
who squealed like a stuck pig about high casualties in an  effort to get
himself off, changed his tune when he saw he was not  immune from prosecution.
--- As to your opinion that Hitler must have had some hand in this, even
Hilberg no longer believes that. To quote Mayer:
  "Apparently, neither Heybrich, Hitler, nor Himmler ever issued a  written
command to liquidate these noncombatants." --- Finally, to your statement that
none of the Einsatzgruppen defendants  challenged the authenticity of the
documents, I can only say that all  the war crimes trials were kangaroo
courts, and they must have  adopted the position they thought best at the
time. However, Mayer  has recently interpreted and then eliminated one by one
all of the  documents or arguments which up until now have been used to make
people believe that the Germans practiced a policy of exterminating  the Jews
(the Goering-to Heydrich letter of 31.July.1941, the Wannsee  Conference
transcript, the conduct of the Einsatzgruppen in Russia,  Himmler's speeches
at Posen in October, 1943, etc.). And if that is  not enough, Hilberg
acknowledges that the Einsatzgrupen did not kill  Jews without a security
reason (1985 edition). --- Perhaps most importantly, however, you neglected to
mention that the  Germans were fighting a guerrilla war in that area, which
was started  by Stalin's order of 3.July.1941. Under the circumstances, the
Germans performed admirably.

[this is the reply to the above]

Here is the primary source upon which I based those comments. This comes from
a Wehrmacht report on the extermination of the Jews in the Ukraine. It is
dated 2.December.1941 and was sent from the Inspector, Armament in the Ukraine
to Berlin. It is document: PS-3257.

"From the outset the attitude of the Jewish population was anxious-willing.
They tried to avoid anything that might displease the German Administration.
That they hated the German Administration and the Army in their hearts is
obvious and not surprising. However, there is no evidence that the Jews,
either as a body, or even in any considerable numbers, have taken part in
sabotage, etc. Without doubt there have been some terrorists or saboteurs
among them, just as there have been among the Ukrainians. But it cannot be
claimed that the Jews as such present any kind of danger for the German
Wehrmacht."

And, what about the mention in Einsatzgruppen Report 127 that the Jews
had brutalized the local population under the Soviets? Is this true?

Let's take a look at a report from SS Sturmbannfuehrer Magill of the 2nd SS-
Cavalry Regiment dated 12.August.1941.

"It was also conspicuous that in general the population was on good terms with
the Jewish sector of the population. Nevertheless they helped energetically in
rounding up the Jews. The locally recruited guards, who consisted in part of
Polish police and former Polish soldiers, made a good impression."

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