The Nizkor Project: Remembering the Holocaust (Shoah)

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Thursday, February 18, 11-12pm et 
Join us for "Speak Out on Civil Rights," a Black History Month Webcast
and chat series on African-American issues.
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Books Book News & Issues Holocaust account: Is it fact or fiction? 







------------------------------------------------------------------------


Related Site• Book news 
• United States Holocaust Memorial Museum 
• Remembering the Holocaust 
External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive
Recent Stories• Truthfulness of Holocaust memoir in doubt 
• Canonization of Jewish-born nun outrages some Jewish leaders
Related Discussion• Religion today 
• Left-wing history? 
• The author of an award-winning memoir of surviving Nazi
concentration camps story is coming under increasing doubt, The New
York Times reported Tuesday, November 3. The book by Binjamin
Wilkomirski, "Fragments: Memories of a Wartime Childhood," was lauded
by Jewish groups and won the National Jewish Book Award in the United
States and the Jewish Quarterly Literary Prize in Britain. 

Some historians have said the book should have been published as
fiction because of doubts about the author's background. 



Do you think the book should have been published as fact or fiction?
If the book is a fraud, what harm do you see coming from it? If
untrue, can the story still have a meaningful effect on teaching about
the holocaust? 






Msg #  




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Rose F. - Tuesday, 11/24/98, 4:26:15pm (#1 of 1254) 

This posting has been here for quite sometime with no body making any
posts to it. 

That someone could ignore the evidence that points to the deliberate
extermination of millions of people or even worse yet, support their
extermination is to me, fully meets the definition of being a cold and
un-compassionate person. 

Today, in the past several years, over 30 million pre-born and in the
process of being born children have been murdered in the name of
pro-"choice". These children have been offered no choice at all in the
matter of whether they would like to live or die. Their deaths also
fully meet the definition of a holocaust.



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Nick Sault - Tuesday, 11/24/98, 8:55:24pm (#2 of 1254) 

I understand that Spielberg took great liberties with the holocaust
story in Schindler's list. But everybody seeing that movie would take
the whole as truth. 

I don't suppose this is the place for revisionist talk, but there are
some very convincing arguments coming forward that point to the
holocaust being a vast exaggeration. 

before you jump all over me, it is not to say the Nazis did not
persecute Jews, but it is to say that there was not an organized
extermination program. There was a program - incarcerate and remove
Jews from Europe, and when the war started, use the Jews in munitions
factories. 

The fact that this program, which involved uprooting and relocating
millions, caused a logistics nightmare for the Nazis, especially when
they started to lose the war. The relocation to camps of millions of
Jews, carried with it disease and pestilence for which the only
recourse was delousing chambers (not gas chambers), and of course the
incineration of those dead from disease. 

At the same time, there would no doubt have been some very malicious
treatment of Jews, with many executions for little provocation. With
those furnaces, the heaps of bodies, the delousing gas chambers, and
the horrific treatment, it is quite easy for the holocaust story as we
know it to be born. 

Bear in mind that it is now historic fact, that no exterminations were
carried out on German soil. Those German camps liberated by the
western allies, were for decades declared as death camps. That is now
shown to be totally false. 

The Polish camps were liberated by the Russians and so the claim or
disclaim rests with them. However, there are millions of reasons why
the Russians would have wanted to satanize the Nazis. 

Sorry if this offends, but historic fact is everbody's right. I am in
no way anti-semitic, but the Jews have no rights on keeping their
version of WWII history sacrosanct, however bad was their treatment by
the Nazis.



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Carol Baker - Friday, 11/27/98, 11:18:19am (#3 of 1254) 

Nick Sault 11/24/98 8:55pm 

Be careful here, The modern accounts might give rise to question, for
we are half a century removed from the event. 

The accounts that should be looked at are the earlier ones from the
forties & Fifties. Go to a library (most have videos now) or watch the
History channel. 

We must never forget what one person can do that could affect
billions.



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MR Smith - Friday, 11/27/98, 1:56:52pm (#4 of 1254) 

Nick, 

I agree that from time to time, we should attempt to be objective
about things past, even at the risk of being stigmatized for doing so.
Hopefully the Jewish community will demonstrate greater flexibility in
this area over time. 

Still, I am aware of no ambibuity over the effect or doubt as to the
use of Zyklon-b gas for, to use your own words, delousing. 

The systematic use of storm troopers throughout Europe, the occasional
heroism by the few who risked their lives to hide Jews, the Nazi
efforts at Theresienstadt to cover up their scheme, testimony at
Nurenburg, and the virtual absence of German army testimony in support
of your suggestions all point directly to the intent to wipe out all
Jews in Europe and roughly to the number of victims: six million. 

I spoke with a now-aged German who was an army private in WWII
(through a translator) and his sister, who now live in the U.S.
According to him, Nazi officers "backed up" the German army and were
prepared to shoot any soldier who failed to follow orders precisely.
They knew the Nazis were up to no good, but they also knew it was in
their best interests not to ask questions, as merely asking was
grounds for imprisonment. 

Their now-dead sister was scooped up by the Nazis, who put a gun to
the back of the head of the doctor who delivered her at birth, and
ordered him to remove her ovaries w/o benefit of anesthesia (she had
some disease that made her imperfect, and was thus unacceptable to the
Nazis). Their story leads me to believe that no atrocity was beyond
the Nazi imagination. 

Still, to answer CNN above, I believe fictitious stories about the
holocaust should remain fiction, and true stories represented as
actual. The victims deserve that much from us who live either to tell
the story or to learn its lessons.



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Nick Sault - Sunday, 11/29/98, 11:30:45pm (#5 of 1254) 

MR Smith 11/27/98 1:56pm 

I hope I have not opened a can of worms. 

Points: 

1. Even if Zyklon-B was used as a means of gassing humans, it was
first and foremost an insecticide. 

2. No non-jewish historians support the 6 million figure any more, and
some Jewish historians are willing to admit that that figure was
grossly exaggerated. 

3. Shooting soldiers for not obeying orders during wartime is
universal. 

4. (More in answer to Carol) I am not 50 years removed. I am a war
baby. I was brought up to believe every morcel of propaganda that came
out of WWII. (Brits still think they won the European war
single-handed. How do the families of Americans that gave their lives
feel about that?) 

5. There are those who enjoy inflicting pain and suffering even
without a war to hide their malicious acts behind. 

The whole point here is that something as emotional and important
historically as the Nazi persecution of the Jews should not in any way
be exaggerated or falsified. It is not something we can make movies
out of ad infinitum like the thousands of westerns we have seen that
were spawned by just one or two documented gun fights. 

It is also not fair on the German people. As a child I got nothing but
vilification about Germans. The whole history of the wars of this
century need to be wiped clean of propaganda and re-presented to us
untarnished by bigotry. Until that happens we all go on hating the
other guy for committing no more sins that we have ourselves
committed.





    

Thursday, February 18, 11-12pm et 
Join us for "Speak Out on Civil Rights," a Black History Month Webcast
and chat series on African-American issues.
• Special guests to be announced
• Chat series information 

Books Book News & Issues Holocaust account: Is it fact or fiction? 







------------------------------------------------------------------------


Related Site• Book news 
• United States Holocaust Memorial Museum 
• Remembering the Holocaust 
External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive
Recent Stories• Truthfulness of Holocaust memoir in doubt 
• Canonization of Jewish-born nun outrages some Jewish leaders
Related Discussion• Religion today 
• Left-wing history? 
• The author of an award-winning memoir of surviving Nazi
concentration camps story is coming under increasing doubt, The New
York Times reported Tuesday, November 3. The book by Binjamin
Wilkomirski, "Fragments: Memories of a Wartime Childhood," was lauded
by Jewish groups and won the National Jewish Book Award in the United
States and the Jewish Quarterly Literary Prize in Britain. 

Some historians have said the book should have been published as
fiction because of doubts about the author's background. 



Do you think the book should have been published as fact or fiction?
If the book is a fraud, what harm do you see coming from it? If
untrue, can the story still have a meaningful effect on teaching about
the holocaust? 






Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thomas Blair - Monday, 11/30/98, 12:06:00pm (#6 of 1254) 

One of the biggest problems with the Holcaust canon as defined by the
Simon Weisenthal Center is that it is clearly used to arrogate unto
the Jewish (nation/religion/people) great power wealth and moral
forgiveness. 

The WJC has effectively committed extortion against Switzerland,
Germany, Austria, Finland, soon Canada, and soon Ireland. They are now
going after some of the finest art in the world - for Jewish
communities; gold is being extorted from Argentina, Switzerland, and
soon America; money is demanded from all western nations; Israeli
atrocities are ignored, indeed nation of Israel as a national
socialist theocracy is given a pass on its crimes against humanity
committed against the Palestinians and Arab nations in general.
Violations of the basis human right to freedom of expression are
passed in most of the nations of the west becuase of Jewish pressure
against what they call "holocaust denial" and "hate speech." 

If the Jews owned most of the Gold, and art in Germany, and most of
the money in Swiss banks before 1940, then how can they claim to be
discriminated against?



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Thomas Blair - Monday, 11/30/98, 12:08:53pm (#7 of 1254) 

One of the biggest problems with the Holcaust canon as defined by the
Simon Weisenthal Center is that it is clearly used to arrogate unto
the Jewish (nation/religion/people) great power wealth and moral
forgiveness. 

The WJC has effectively committed extortion against Switzerland,
Germany, Austria, Finland, soon Canada, and soon Ireland. They are now
going after some of the finest art in the world - for Jewish
communities; gold is being extorted from Argentina, Switzerland, and
soon America; money is demanded from all western nations; Israeli
atrocities are ignored, indeed the nation of Israel as a national
socialist theocracy is given a pass on its crimes against humanity
committed against the Palestinians and Arab nations in general.
Violations of the basis human right to freedom of expression are
passed in most of the nations of the west becuase of Jewish pressure
against what they call "holocaust denial" and "hate speech." 

Aging eastern Europeans are driven from their homes, jalied, and
deported for serving in the German army while murderous bolshevicks
and communists (like Marcus Wolfe) are given sanctuary in Israel and
America. 

If the Jews owned most of the Gold, and art in Germany, and most of
the money in Swiss banks before 1940, then how can they claim to be
discriminated against?



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Nick Sault - Monday, 11/30/98, 6:50:26pm (#9 of 1254) 

Thomas 

Be careful, we cannot turn this into an outlet for revisionist debate.
I must be honest and say I have never been near the book in question.
I just believe it is totally wrong to go on producing fictional
accounts about the holocaust until the world is in total agreement of
what actually went wrong. 

It would be more balanced to the fiction world if someone were to
write a novel about an SS or gestapo man who was utterly sympathetic
to Jews. If there was ever such a man, his story would be deeply
buried under the mass of hatred for the Nazis. And such a book would
no doubt bring down a rain of wrathe from the Jewish world. 

Schindler certainly wasn't that man. There is no hard evidence that
the man ever had a shred of compassion for Jews. It may be that he
did, but for the movie to portray that he did is just another fiction
that adds to the already colossal weight of sympathy for the Jews. 

More realistic estimates are coming out re the number of Jews that
died in WWII. It looks like it will be less than 2 million. That is
bad, but then the hard core rivisionists would say that most of those
deaths were from disease, and many more from the deprivations that
came when the Germans were close to defeat and their military lines of
communication were broken. 

That is still bad, but you have to see this in proportion to all the
other suffering that came out of that war. The Russians would
certainly give you some equally nasty stories of death and
deprivation. Why have we not got memorials to the 20 million Russians
that died?



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Thomas Blair - Tuesday, 12/01/98, 7:43:53am (#10 of 1254) 

Nick Sault 11/30/98 6:50pm 



It would be more balanced to the fiction world if someone were to
write a novel about an SS or gestapo man who was utterly sympathetic
to Jews. If there was ever such a man, his story would be deeply
buried under the mass of hatred for the Nazis. 



I just don't agree with your approach. It would be more balanced if
for once someone wrote about the German people - oppressed by
capitalist exploitation, burdened by the immoral treaty of Versaille,
undergoing cultural profanation by the Mapplethorpes of their day,
under threat of being exterminated by the Bolsheviks just like the
Ukrainians were. 

The NSDAP stopped Bolshevick communism from overrunning Germany (and
ultimately France and the rest of Europe). The Bolshevicks (nowadays
known simply as the left) are still angry about it and still fighting
the underlying cause of WW2. 

The "hatred" isn't for "the Nazis", its against the German people. The
war against Germany was a racist war from its start (the first decade
of the 20th century). It goes on today - pushed by the interests of
anglo-saxon capitalism and jewish racism and greed.








Msg #  




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Nick Sault - Tuesday, 12/01/98, 4:15:41pm (#11 of 1254) 

Thomas Blair 12/1/98 7:43am 

OK, I agree. But the hatred for Germans as a race is an undercurrent,
whereas the hatred for Hitler and his Nazi party has been become a
huge edifice built on propaganda. If we want to make a point about
some evil in the world, we compare it with Hitler and the Nazis. I'm
not saying these guys weren't nasty - I'm just saying it has gone way
beyond reality, like the cowboys myth I mentioned earlier. 

I also agree that if people really understood the untarnished truth
about late 19th to 20th century history, they would get a far more
balanced view of what the world wars were all about. 

That is what this board is about isn't it? The general public's tiny
morcels of historic reality are fed out of proportion by historic
fiction. It might be one thing to write novels about history that is
laid to rest, but there is still too much national and racial emotion
about the 20th century wars to confuse the whole issue with fiction.
It simply puts another row of bricks on someone's propaganda edifice. 

Look at Serbia - a key player in the shanaghans that started WW1, a
major antagonist of Nazi germany in WWII, and still there is turmoil
and strife in that region. 

If stories are to be written about these events, they have to be based
on 100% fact. 

Let's not have stories like the Jews going to the incinerators on
great conveyor belts just because someone thought that would really
spice up an already horrific story.



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Thomas Blair - Wednesday, 12/02/98, 7:39:27am (#12 of 1254) 

I agree. But there are deep historial undercurrents to everything.
Almost all arguments are really about something deeper. I just would
like to take the focus off the Jews. 

This is hard for some to believe - given the current state of Amerikan
education - but (lowering my voice to a whisper and peeking over my
shoulder) WW2 was not about the Jews.



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Robert Caleb Tomanek - Wednesday, 12/02/98, 8:41:27pm (#13 of 1254) 

To CNN, 

You really opened a can of worms here. 

To the Blair & Sault Oligopoly, 

You may have noticed that there are not many people here taking the
time to challenge what you are saying about the Holocaust and your
adoration with the past. What most people know, and all true facts
state, is that your position cannot be debated because you do not
offer any defendable facts for any debates; that is why most people do
not want to be driven into a morass attacking such treasonous and
unloyal positions. You state Jewish conspiracies against history and
against Germany. Is there a Czech conspiracy against Germany regarding
the Munich Pact and Lidice? Is there an Italian conspiracy against
them for a Lidice-like experience in the closing days of the German
campaign in Italy against the Allies? Is there a German conspiracy
against Germany as most Germans acknowledge the full and reported size
of the Holocaust? Or is there a conspiracy against Germany by American
POW's who were mistreated by the Reich in ways which few other
countries were demonic enough to stoop to? Just remember that you are
on the comfort of the web; veterans, Italians, Jews, Germans, true
history, and the many countless war, and peace, victims would
definitely make your position undefensible in a true debate rather
than in the shadows of your web.



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Thomas Blair - Thursday, 12/03/98, 11:37:11am (#14 of 1254) 

Robert Caleb Tomanek 12/2/98 8:41pm 



You state Jewish conspiracies against history and against Germany. 



You are lying. Quote me - or retract your lie. I never mentioned a
"conspiracy." I do not believe in conspiracies in history - Jewish or
otherwise. Jewish malevolence against gentile nations is the logical
result of their theology - not any conspiracy. 

The obligation of proof lies with those who make the charge of
holocaust. It is an obligation that you fail to meet. 

It is your silly religious doctrine of perpetual persecution that is
the lie. The greatest evidence that you lie is that you are forced to
maintain that myth by criminalizing, slandering, or forbidding
dissent. 

The best reason to question the historical validity of the holocaust
doctrine is the desperate nature of your attacks against those who do.



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Nick Sault - Thursday, 12/03/98, 6:44:28pm (#15 of 1254) 

Whoops, I told you so, Thomas. 

Robert: I am not defending the obvious aggressors in WWII. I am
defending history. In the last few decades certain evidence is coming
to light that shows that parts of the holocaust story are simply
false. Until the whole facts are laid open, and everyone agrees to
them, this is too emotional a history to tamper with by creating
"add-ons" to spice up books and movies. 

It is most likely those spicy "add-ons" that have been the reason the
story has been blown out of proportion in the first place. 

Fact: No historian believes that 6 million Jews died at the hands of
the Nazis. Jewish literature still points to that figure, as does the
literature in the Holocaust Museum. 

FAct: No historian believes that gas chambers were used to gas Jews ON
GERMAN SOIL. In spite of this, the photos and movie sequences that
show the western allies liberating the German camps still point to
those piles of bodies as being victims of the gas chambers rather than
the victims of typhus and starvation. 

In the world of civil law, if large parts of the prosecutor's evidence
are shown to be blatantly false, does it not call into question the
whole case. 

As Thomas points out, we are not allowed to question one point of the
holocaust evidence without bringing down a rain of Jewish wrath. This
is wrong. History does not belong to anyone.








Msg #  




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Robert Caleb Tomanek - Thursday, 12/03/98, 11:35:04pm (#16 of 1254) 

To Whom It May Concern (and you know who you are), 

A definition of "conspiracy" in the dictionary is, "an evil, unlawful,
treacherous, or surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more
persons; plot ("The Random House Dictionary of the English Language,
2nd Edition, 1987, New York: Random House)." Now, Mr. Blair, you
stated in a previous letter that: 

The WJC has effectively committed extortion against Switzerland,
Germany, Austria, Finland, soon Canada, and soon Ireland. They are now
going after some of the finest art in the world - for Jewish
communities; gold is being extorted from Argentina, Switzerland, and
soon America; money is demanded from all western nations . . . (Thomas
Blair - Monday, 11/30/98, 12:06:00pm (#6)). 

According to that same dictionary, a definition of "extortion" is,
"The crime of obtaining money or some other thing of value by the
abuse of one's office or authority (Random House Dictionary, 1987)."
Crimes are unlawful acts, and unlawful acts committed by two or more
persons is, by the above-quoted definitions, a conspiracy. I never
wrote that you were using the actual word "conspiracy" (that would
have required me to place what you said in quotes or italicize them
should they be in a block); I merely showed that you were insinuating
a conspiracy by your above-quoted words.



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Robert Caleb Tomanek - Thursday, 12/03/98, 11:57:09pm (#17 of 1254) 

Continued: 

Now, Mr. Blair, you mention that: 

[I have a] silly religious doctrine of perpetual persecution that is
the lie. The greatest evidence that you lie is that you are forced to
maintain that myth by criminalizing, slandering, or forbidding
dissent. (Thomas Blair, Thursday, 12/03/98, 11:37 am (#14)) 

I think that you believe me to be Jewish for some strange reason or
another (I'm not). Nor do I forbid dissent; especially by becoming
insensed and trying to name-call my opponents into submission or
intimidation. You can take some cues from your friend, Mr. Nicholas
Sault, in the way in which he responded to my letter in his fifteenth
message: calm, cool, collected, courteous, and calculated. His was the
way a logical man responds to a debatable challenge; yours, well,
yours was yours. You are free to talk as much as you want--that is
what Americans fought for more than fifty years ago.



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Robert Caleb Tomanek - Friday, 12/04/98, 12:28:53am (#18 of 1254) 

continued: 

Nor do I lie; especially when covering the facts. I may be mistaken
from time to time, which is rare, but I always act with the
information which I have before me, but I never lie, and doubly never
on a subject as serious as this. Mr. Sault, you say that you have new
information which will show that the number of Jewish casualties (to
break from the subject, why is it that it seems that people are always
challenging the number of Jewish casualies but never the number of the
other casualties?) are now estimated to be lower than popularly
reported. I am very interested in seeing this information, fully
quoted and sourced accurately, so that I may look at it myself. This
request is also offered to Mr. Blair, if he can produce
similarly-quoted and sourced text. 

Myself, to quote the late comedian Will Rogers, "All I know is what I
read in the papers." Or, in this case, encyclopedias, history books,
documentaries, photographs, and the words of an elderly German friend
who lived during the time of World War Two. In the 1995 New
Encyclopaedia Britannica, it states: 

The most effective method for mass extermination became gassing in
specially constructed gas chambers (disguised as showers), from which
the bodies were removed to adjacent crematoriums. By this and other
means, perhaps as many as 4,000,000 Jews were put to death in the
extermination camps . . . and in the other concentration camps. The
total number of Jews exterminated by the Nazis during the war is
variously estimated but may have been as many as 6,000,000.
("Holocaust," The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, 15th ed. Vol.6, 1995,
Chicago, IL.: Encyclopaedia Britannica) 

So, in a way, this article supports Mr. Sault's assertions that the
death total could have been lower. But it also says that it reasonably
could have been at the fully-claimed total.



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Robert Caleb Tomanek - Friday, 12/04/98, 1:02:52am (#19 of 1254) 

continued: 

As I always try to substantiate my information, I looked into another
respected periodical, The 1998 World Book Encyclopedia. This source
had one of the most up-to-date information available. Inside, it
reports that, "By the end of the war, the Nazis had killed about 6
million Jewish men, women, and children--more than two-thirds of the
Jews in Europe ("Holocaust," "The World Book Encyclopedia," vol. 9,
1998, Chicago, IL: World Book, Inc.)." It continues to say that: 

In addition to Jews, the Nazis systematically killed millions of other
people whom Hitler regarded as racially inferior or politically
dangerous. The largest groups included (1) Germans who were physically
handicapped or mentally retarded, (2) Gypsies, and (3) Slavs,
particularly Poles and Soviet prisoners of war. Nazi victims also
included many homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, priests and ministers,
members of labor unions, and Communist and other political opponents.
Historians estimate that perhaps as many as 11 million people were
killed, including the Jews. Many of the Holocaust victims were killed
in specially constructed gas chambers, and their bodies were then
burned. The word "Holocaust" means "a sacrificial offering that is
completely burned." ("Holocaust," "The World Book Encyclopedia," 1998)


I must agree with Mr. Sault that the Russians suffered even greater
casualties than all of the other groups stated previously, possibly
even greater than is reported. However, there were many reasons that
this is hardly known; most notably, because of the start of the Cold
War and of the fear and the hatred of Communism. But another reason,
aside from clout, could be that the Russians were not as greatly
betrayed and abandoned by other nations as were the persecuted of
non-Soviet Europe, especially the Jews.








Msg #  




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Robert Caleb Tomanek - Friday, 12/04/98, 1:48:04am (#20 of 1254) 

continued: 

Mr. Sault, you state that Zyklon-B was used for delousing the
prisoners instead of killing them. Mighty powerful bathing agent,
don't you think? The thing that puzzles me is that, if the Germans
needed a delousing agent, why did they not use the most commonly-used
delousing agent on the prisoners at that time: D.D.T.? In its powdery
form, it could have been easilly used to dust people without much harm
to them. Zyklon-B, in its gaseous form, would have been hard to spray
on the prisoners through disguised shower nozzles as it would float
away from the people; it could, more logically, have been applied in a
way more similar to D.D.T. (through a dusting can), but even then, it
would still float away and not be useful. More so, in order to keep
the gas in those shower areas, the guards would have to tightly seal
the doors to keep the gas inside, but then, of course, it would
asphixiate the people and be of little use as a delousing agent. So I
do not see the usefulness of such a deadly gas as Zyklon-B in the same
role as D.D.T. 

Now, all of the evidence accumulated through the years is very
powerful, accurate, and disturbing. There is the testimony of all
groups, the records, transcripts, photographs, convictions, bodies,
and the survivors. But nothing compares to the modern-day word of
someone who lived in Germany at that time--a elderly German who
accepts his former nation's responsibilities for its crimes. When the
subject of the war was somehow brought up in conversation, he told me
that he once talked to a commander of an army unit after the war; a
unit which did not know of what crimes were being committed by other
parts of the army. He told me that the commander said that had they
known what was going on, they would have marched in and put a stop to
what was happening with force. Now, before you scoff at such a
statement, remember how in the 1989 Tiannenmen Square crackdown,
several forces of the army rebeled and refused to obey



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Robert Caleb Tomanek - Friday, 12/04/98, 2:08:00am (#21 of 1254) 

continued: 

And now, gentlemen, if I can call all of you that, I will now be
saying goodnight. While it is true that we still do not know
everything about the war, I doubt that we will know everything. Wars
are destruction, and everything involved in them has an excellent
chance of being destroyed with no trace (e.g. Glenn Miller). I must
emphasize, if you call me a liar, back it up with facts, and not with
false accusations. My information is from the accumulated mass
consciousness of society, and any member of us will gladly take on,
with proven facts, anyone who berates us with intimidation and
unacknowledged and unquoted statements and rumors. I believe that I
have broken the Oligopoly, if only for the time being. Do your worst
to me with your words! If they are the same as I have seen before, my
information is in no danger. Mr. Sault, I must complement you on your
excellent counter to my last response on this board. Mr. Blair, I hope
that you learn from your friend and not blare out at me like you did
before. 

Oh, by the way, what about that book we were discussing? 

I say, fiction always with fiction and fact always with fact. 

p.s., Never take on a Golden Key scholar in a debate unless you are
well-prepared!



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Thomas Blair - Friday, 12/04/98, 8:01:18am (#22 of 1254) 

Robert Caleb Tomanek 12/3/98 11:35pm 



(RE: The WJC effort to extort money from Switzerland) A definition of
"conspiracy" in the dictionary is, "an evil, unlawful, treacherous, or
surreptitious plan formulated in secret by two or more persons; 



A perfect example Mr. Tomanek. Thanks for bringing it up. 

The WJC is not engaging in a conspiracy. They are not acting in secret
and they are not breaking the law. They do not hide what they are
doing because they do not believe what they are doing is evil. They
believe they are doing good. 

Lying about the history of Switzerland, smearing the faith and heart
of the Swiss people, extorting their money, violating the secrecy laws
of their banks are logical actions of people who believe in the
doctrines of the jewish religion. 

Evil, injustice, and cultural destruction caused by Jews and Jewish
organizations in "gentile" nations comes from their religious belief
that they are better than "heathen gentiles" and their belief that god
commands them to destroy the "idols of the gentiles." In America that
means the destruction of such "idols" as Anglo-Saxon common law, the
First, Second, 4th, 5th, 6th, 9th, and 10th amendments, the sanctity
of the family, communal self-determination, and staying out of foreign
affairs. 

Mr. Sault - you can defend "gentiles" and not be made to feel guilty
about it. Tomanek lied - I caught him in it - and I won't let him off
the hook.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Robert Caleb Tomanek - Friday, 12/04/98, 12:15:14pm (#23 of 1254) 

Dear Mr. Blair, 

I thought that I should take it easy on you, since I believed that you
are not used to reading books (it's one of those Maslov's pyramid
kinds of thing, you know, keeping warm by burning things (basic
survival) over reading (self-actulization)); therefore, I did not give
all of the definition since dictionary definitions are very long. But
since you insist, here it goes: another definition for conspiracy is
"any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given
result ("The Random House Dictionary of the English Language, 2nd
Edition, 1987, New York: Random House)." And, if you must know, the
word "conspire" is derived from Middle English, which is, itself,
derived from the Latin verb "conspirare" which means "to act in
harmony ("The Random House Dictionary of the English Language, 1987)."
In other words, conspiracies do not always have to act in secret; the
fact that you were only able to focus on one part--one word--of the
definition ("secret"), and even that is now shown to be irrelevant,
destroys your contention that I deliberately misused the word in
contention. The first dictionary response which I gave you was to show
what triggered me to use that word; this dictionary response was to
clarify it.





    

Thursday, February 18, 11-12pm et 
Join us for "Speak Out on Civil Rights," a Black History Month Webcast
and chat series on African-American issues.
• Special guests to be announced
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Books Book News & Issues Holocaust account: Is it fact or fiction? 







------------------------------------------------------------------------


Related Site• Book news 
• United States Holocaust Memorial Museum 
• Remembering the Holocaust 
External sites are not endorsed by CNN Interactive
Recent Stories• Truthfulness of Holocaust memoir in doubt 
• Canonization of Jewish-born nun outrages some Jewish leaders
Related Discussion• Religion today 
• Left-wing history? 
• The author of an award-winning memoir of surviving Nazi
concentration camps story is coming under increasing doubt, The New
York Times reported Tuesday, November 3. The book by Binjamin
Wilkomirski, "Fragments: Memories of a Wartime Childhood," was lauded
by Jewish groups and won the National Jewish Book Award in the United
States and the Jewish Quarterly Literary Prize in Britain. 

Some historians have said the book should have been published as
fiction because of doubts about the author's background. 



Do you think the book should have been published as fact or fiction?
If the book is a fraud, what harm do you see coming from it? If
untrue, can the story still have a meaningful effect on teaching about
the holocaust? 






Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Robert Caleb Tomanek - Friday, 12/04/98, 12:41:27pm (#24 of 1254) 

continued: 

Now, Mr. Blair, I wonder if you recall what I said earlier, "I am very
interested in seeing this information, fully quoted and sourced
accurately, so that I may look at it myself." This includes every
allegation which you supplied in your last letter. As you never
included any source which I can look up (and I can indeed look them up
because I am communicating from within a library), I can only assume
that they are unsubstatiated rumors which you are blasting from within
the confines of your computer. One definitely true unsubstatiated
rumor (notice the polite way that I phrase this) which you said was
that I was and am a liar. Please substantiate further with stronger
arguments next time other than the word "secret." 

The final thing is that you missed the entire point of my first
letter: your comments are not just directed at the Jews, with whom you
have a Jerry Springer guest-like fixation, but they insult all victims
of World War Two. You forget about Czechs, Russians, Britains, French,
Germans, Italians, et. al., and even your fellow Americans who fought
and died against Germany and its allies. Germany got a bum steer after
World War One and they had my sympathy against their persecutors, but
they had no right to be agressors against us. They declared war on us
after Pearl Harbor, not vice versa. 

I wish you only the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ, not animosity over
this subject.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Thomas Blair - Friday, 12/04/98, 1:37:10pm (#25 of 1254) 

Robert Caleb Tomanek 12/4/98 12:15pm 



"any concurrence in action; combination in bringing about a given
result 



Congradulations. You have sufficiently loosened the definition of
"conspiracy" to make every every policy decision of every group -
church, synagogue, political party, committee, legislature - a
conspiracy. 

By your definition, pressure by the World Jewish Congress against the
Swiss people is a conspiracy, but by your definition so is the pizza
party my office just threw for our secretaries. Let's just be clear
about one thing - its YOUR word, not mine. 

If you were half as erudite as you like to think yourself - you'd find
a way to display your wit with brevity.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Robert Caleb Tomanek - Friday, 12/04/98, 5:49:17pm (#26 of 1254) 

To Mr. Blair (concerning message #25), 

Correct.



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Robert Caleb Tomanek - Friday, 12/04/98, 6:03:02pm (#27 of 1254) 

Concerning message #26, 

:)



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Drew Hanson - Friday, 12/04/98, 10:28:17pm (#28 of 1254) 

Have not been following the news for several weeks and this is the
first I've heard of the book. 

First let me state that new evidence is pointing that the 6 million is
an UNDERestimation of Jews massacred by the German SS troupes. 

Some of this evidence you will find by not one but 12 different of the
top religious historians in the world (also all ministers) in
"Contemporary Religious Ideas" which can be found and is a new
mainstay in Harvard Divinity Library. The information was compiled by
Dr. George Edward Lundin, PHD, a foremost leader in theological
education (trained as a Lutheran minister btw) and is now an Episcopal
priest. 

But that is neither here nor there. Most historical revisionists who
do not believe the book is true; also hold onto the holocaust myth.
That is ok, and in fact according to Dr. Lundin, in a way, healthy.
Many such fallible humans do not want to believe that a "good
Christian" could be aware of such atrocities. 

I consider myself a "good Christian" whatever that means; I believe in
the Lord Jesus Christ and try to abide by His principles. I am also
aware, after studying history of how easy it is for something like the
Holocaust to happen; simply a walking away of one's principles and to
encourage one's peers and colleagues to do the same; it can happen
rapidly. Almost every society needs a scapegoat. 

As an educated American, I feel even a bit awkward posting on a board
which permeates of such ignorance of "what Jews take from society" and
how they rape and pillage nations, conspire, etc. etc. 

They are as different as day and night from each other, same as we
Christians. You are lumping Son of Sam Berkewitz in the same league as
Albert Einstein and Bruce Springsteen. You lips are moving but they
ain't sayin' anything. 

It is good though, to see your hate ventilated on such boards and not
out in the public arena where history has a tendency to repeat itself.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Friday, 12/04/98, 10:32:00pm (#29 of 1254) 

In earlier post meant to say "good Christian could be capable
of......" 

Also, frankly, I am not concerned if the book is fact or fiction. I am
for putting it on the fiction list simply because I know that most
"true biographies" for instance have a degree of embellishment just to
make the reading palatable. It would be surprising if Spielberg did
not take liberties to do Shindler's List; all "based on truth" films
do so; not every day of Shindlers life was filled with intense
intrigue that would keep moviegoers on the edge of their seats.



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Nick Sault - Sunday, 12/06/98, 4:36:15pm (#30 of 1254) 

Robert Caleb Tomanek 12/4/98 5:49pm 

I have been away for a few days. I will get you the relevant
references.





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Nick Sault - Sunday, 12/06/98, 5:16:31pm (#31 of 1254) 

OK, Robert 

"Did Six Million Really Die" - Richard E. Harwood 

See http://ihr.org/books/harwood/dsmrd01.html 

Especially part II. 

According to World Almanac, the number of Jews in Europe in 1938 was
just under 17 million. If 6 million were exterminated, there would be
9 million after the war. In 1948, the World Almanac gave a figure of
between 15 and 18 million Jews in Europe. 

It would be impossible for the Jews to multiply from 9 million to even
15 million in a few short years. Not just impossible, but ludicrous. 

Robert, I have gone through a great deal of material on this. Yes,
some could be contrived, and we may never know 100% truth by not
having been there, but sometimes we can apply logic and common sense.
I have done this, especially in considering the sheer numbers of
exterminations that would have to be carried out to account for the 6
million. This is grisly stuff, but it needs looking at. 

At Auschwitz the figure comes to 2000 PER DAY. All those people not
only need to be marched through the gas chambers, but more importantly
they had to be disposed of. There are actual pictures of bodies being
burned in pits. Do you know how long it takes to burn one body in a
pit, let alone thousands? OK, they had incinerators. So, now go ask
your friendly mortician how long it takes to burn a body. SEveral
hours. Now apply those 2 thousand per day. The numbers do not stack
up. The logistics of moving in all that material to burn bodies, would
have seriously imperiled the war effort, and quite frankly is
impossible. 

At Belsec, the figure was, from memory, supposed to be 600 a day.
Belsec was an old lumber camp. The camp was built on clear forest,
with stumps and roots still in the ground. Where would you dispose of
all those ashes - 600 bodies a day, day after day after day. 

It is quite clear when you do the sums that the incinerators were for
coping with the horrific outbreaks of typhus that accompanied the
moving of h



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Sunday, 12/06/98, 5:20:23pm (#32 of 1254) 

Contd 

It is quite clear when you do the sums that the incinerators were for
coping with the horrific outbreaks of typhus that accompanied the
moving of hundreds of thousands of Jews out of the Polish ghettos. The
Germans were having a hard time coping with the thousands of deaths
from disease, let alone the supposed millions. 

Robert, bend your mind around the horror of the camps. The disease,
the rats, the lice - the ignominity of having to strip off to be
showered. There would have been an accompanyment of brutality, nobody
is denying. Now imagine you are Jew that has been disposessed, split
up from you loved ones, load like cattle on a train, and taken to a
disease ridden camp where you were treated like a disease-infested
dog. You live with death, and suffering and you see people you love,
die and go to the incinerator. 

One day someone whispers that he believes that the Germans are using
the delousing chambers to gas unruly Jews. You don't doubt these Nazi
pigs could do anything. The story spreads, and goes by word of mouth
from camp to camp. Even if it is not true, you beleive that after what
your people have suffered, that who cares - these people deserve to be
branded. 

Soon, the stories are so rife that nobody has any doubt that
exterminations are going on. All you want now is the war to end so
that you can tell the world and bring these devils to justice. The war
ends and the Jewish survivors emerge full of wrath and full of the
conviction that gas chambers were a reality.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Sunday, 12/06/98, 5:32:41pm (#33 of 1254) 

Robert - zyklon-b versus DDT 

I'm not sure which is most effective. You are assuming that the story
of the showers that weren't showers is true. I am saying the showers
were showers, and the clothes and bedding were hung in the delousing
chambers. 

Perhaps (and this is my pure speculation) that in one camp, a really
rotten guard thought he'd speed up the system and actually put the
clothes in the chamber with the people still inside them. This story
might have been the seed for the whole thing. 

The point is that awful as the camps no dooubt were, so were the
Japanese camps, and it is best to bear in mind that my own people, the
British, invented the concentration camp (we cramped innocent boer
families into horrific conditions). It is a long way from war-time
atrocities that go on in any war to a full, planned act of genocide. 

I believe the Nazi plan for Jews was emigration. I believe that when
the was became a hard reality for the Germans, the logistics of
handling huge numbers of Jews going to the internment camps to make
munitions, or simply be detained until they could be deported, got
away from them. Disease became the number one problem; a problem that
became a logistical nightmare. The nightmare fed the stories of the
holocaust.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Sunday, 12/06/98, 5:49:26pm (#34 of 1254) 

Contd 

Robert, I stated my position at the outset. I was brought up in
post-war London. I played in bombed out buildings. My church was minus
its roof until I was nine years old. MY folks told me war stories and
we regularly saw on the newsreels those awful pictures of piles of
bodies in pits, with the occasional skeletal person sitting amongst
the death stench waiting to die. Boy, we hated the Nazis and for
years, nay decades, I found it hard to accept that humans could do
things like that, and on that scale. 

So, you see, I came from a backgound of total, undoubted belief in the
holocaust. But along the way, on smaller scales admittedly, I have
found that some things I have always believed to be true have turned
out to be false. When someone asked me to look again at the facts
pertaining to the events of WWII, I scoffed at first, but I have in
later life prided myself on having an open mind, so I decided to look
further. 

I believe that as bad as the extermination of 6 million would be, the
lie would be just as bad.








Msg #  




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Drew Hanson - Monday, 12/07/98, 12:43:32am (#35 of 1254) 

Every serious historical study has something new to propose, or there
would be no point in writing it. It is therefore 'revisionist' in some
sense. Indeed, 'revisionism' is not only an honorable tradition in
historiography, it is the very essence of what historians do. Hence,
Mr. Sault, whether you are a historian or "just looking like one", I
assume, or hope, you are aware, that is what you are doing here; and
nothing new or fancy to your "state of the art historian". 

Historians propose hypotheses to explain historical facts. Other
historians subject these hypotheses to critical review, do research to
uncover new facts, and propose new hypotheses that do a better job of
accounting for the facts. Call it 'dialectics', call it the
'hypothetico-deductive' or 'nomothetic' method; call it 'critical
history' or the 'Baconian method': this process of continual honing
and revision constitutes the claim of history, as a discipline, to
represent a scientific epistemology and methodology and therefore an
approximation to truth rather than a mere collection of opinions. A
good analogy would be the alchemists. 

But if you don't believe traditional history, Mr. Sault, or don't
believe Yale's Sterling Memorial Library (more than 4000 testimonials
on videotape), why not take it from the horse's mouth. 

Try a book called "The Holocaust As Seen By It's Perpetrators and
Bystanders" By Ernst Klee. 

I think you'll be highly enlightened. I take that back. I'm not so
sure you even WANT to be enlightened.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Thomas Blair - Monday, 12/07/98, 10:33:06am (#36 of 1254) 

Probably the best reason to challenge the incessant dogmatic
trumpeting of the holocaust religion is simply because - hate must be
challenged. 

The holocaust is the greatest and most vicious hate campaign ever
against a nation. The nadir of that hate campaign came with
Goldhagen's book "Hitler's Willing Executioners." Wilkomirski's book
simply continues the hate. 

From Ugandan's, to black Muslims, to Palestinians, to Arabs, to
conservative southern Christians, to Serbians, to Iraqis, to Germans
the media and the culture scream - HATE. And you people (especially
you "good Christians" out there) obey with HATE. 

Well I won't play your game. I won't hate - anyone. When you blood
libel a nation I will be there to defend them. All people are both
good and bad. I will never discuss an issue without hearing other
sides. 

For 40 years I have had holocaust shoved down my throat by shrieking
religious fanatics. It is time to hear of the bolshevick horror the
Germans faced. It is time to hear the evil of the Versaille Treaty. It
is time to say that the NSDAP built a worker's paradise the Soviet
Union dreamt of but never achieved. In short, it is time to defend the
weak from the strong. 

The Germans lost the war but the racist campaign to destroy them as a
nation persists. I will defend them against the hate-mongers on this
forum and their great, black lie - the holocaust. 

And I feel good about myself for doing it.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Monday, 12/07/98, 4:00:08pm (#37 of 1254) 

Drew Hanson 12/7/98 12:43am 



But if you don't believe traditional history, Mr. Sault, or don't
believe Yale's Sterling Memorial Library (more than 4000 testimonials
on videotape), why not take it from the horse's mouth 



It would be a foolish man who believed implicitly all of traditional
history. Who wrote the most defintive history of WWII? Winston
Churchill. Now tell me he was not just a little bit biased. 



Try a book called "The Holocaust As Seen By It's Perpetrators and
Bystanders" By Ernst Klee 



Yes, I have read it. It has some awful graphic pictures that can give
you nightmares. I have tried to read from both sides, and this one did
sway me pro-holocaust. I cannot speak for all the reports in the book,
they appear to come from honest people, but the problem is that more
than half the book is devoted to shootings in the Russian territories.
These slayings could hardly have been organized - they were too ad lib
in nature. Yet, in the aftermath of the war they have been lumped with
the supposedly organised "final solution" of the gas chambers. 

It is obvious to any non-biased historian that the two sets of events
are completely unrelated. Yet, as I pointed out, the book spent more
time of that event when it was defintiely not part of any final
solution.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Monday, 12/07/98, 4:20:03pm (#38 of 1254) 

But once again, Mr. Sault, you are picking and choosing your
facts...because one event had nothing to do with another in a book;
then the book itself is not valid? I beg to differ; even you can see
in the book; these were not perpetrators with their arms twisted to
squeal, they were/are for real. They obviously had some- thing quite
heavy on their consciouses; and it had nothing to do with
mismanagement of containment of prisoners catching diseases and dying.
That much is clear in the book as told by the perpetrators. And so are
the photos (real). 

No you don't have to believe all of traditional history, nor do I. But
when over 4k videos at Yale's Sterling Library; created by their
history and film department all tell the same story, it is hardly a
falacy. That doesn't happen. Rumors cannot be depicted that explicitly
over and over by different persons who had never met. Same story,
different people. That kind of historical accounting, from a
historical accuracy standpoint is generally the most accurate (and of
course Yale knows that or they wouldn't have gone to the expense or
trouble to create it and archive it). 

And lets theorize there were 4,256.875 Jews killed in the Holocaust
rather than the originally thought 6 million. Just by some slim
chance. You still think the "miscount" is as bad as the deed as in one
of your previous posts? It could be self-ealuation time, Mr. Sault. 

You may get your WW2 History from Churchill and a lot of people have,
but it would be difficult to convince me that most valid historians
today look at him as the end all be all of info re: WW2. His account
was important and that is about as much as historians agree with
today; from what they have told me. 

Mr. Blair. I have to admit you confuse me. I have never seen a group
of people (Germans) more adamantly sorry and remoseful as to what has
transpired in Germany today. It is against the law there to teach
holocaust








Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nick Sault - Monday, 12/07/98, 4:27:27pm (#39 of 1254) 

Thomas Blair is more blatant than I. He has not held back his
feelings, and I warned that a can of worms could be opened. 

The reason I have not been quite so outspoken is that this subject has
been the cause of huge emotion, and in most western countries one
could be censured for uttering any doubts about the holocaust story
(and please don't cite Germany's reaction as proof of the holocaust
story). There are those that have lost their careers and even been
imprisoned for being as blatant as our Thomas here. 

That is wrong - any moral person who believes in freedom of speech
must see that is wrong. Any history is there to question. History is
not black and white in any case - one man's terrorist is another man's
hero. It depends which side you view it from. 

Good on you, Thomas. You have more courage than me.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Monday, 12/07/98, 4:28:04pm (#40 of 1254) 

more... 

It is against the law in Germany to teach Holocaust revisionist
History. Why do you suppose that is, Mr. Blair? Take a stab at that
one too, Mr. Sault while I have your attention? 

And it is a good law. It has worked. There is less anti-semitism in
Germany than most other European countries and certainly less that in
the U.S. 

The Germans are the most eduated people on the planet on the Holocaust
and the LEAST likely to have another one because of that unwaivering
education. 

Mr. Blair, I love the German people and how they have handled their
past. I think it is a phenomena of modern day change as probably no
other country has fathomed. Do you think I'm a racist because I hate
something their ancestors did historically? Fine.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Monday, 12/07/98, 4:40:18pm (#41 of 1254) 

I encourage Mr. Blair to be blatant. It is important for younger
people to see what can happen to persons who fall for the (generally)
self serving revisionists that make (big time bucks) off yours and
others of such similar opinions. 

How much money do you think the American Nazi Party raises that goes
to anything other than furthering the agenda (not to mention parties
and conventions) of their own Party. It is a money-making machine that
engines itself on the feeble minds and social insecurities of the less
educated. I think the very persons that spend their money on such
trash are the very ones who should turn on them and rebel when they
finally figure out what the hell is really going on. 

But that is what happens when people don't learn from history...they
are often doomed to repeat it. 

THAT IS WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT IN GERMANY TO TEACH REAL HOLOCAUST
HISTORY!! No country could survive such a financial disaster as
nazism. It looked better than its predessor (hell anything would), but
it was not. And modern day educated Germany is well aware of that.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Monday, 12/07/98, 5:40:44pm (#42 of 1254) 

The German remorse for their WWII sins I find quite sickening –
almost as sickening as the over-pandering to Jewish hardships. A good
example of the feeling (British versus German, in this case) was one
of the Fawlty Towers episodes in which some Germans came to stay at
the hotel. The incredibly funny John Cleese was at his best, warning
all his staff to not to mention the war, but ending up goose stepping
around the restaurant with his forefinger stuck under his nose
immitating a Hitler moustache. Hilarious stuff, except that the script
writers got carried away and had the Germans bursting into tears of
guilt. 

As an Englishman (an honest one) I found this incredibly demeaning to
Germans – to assume they have so much guilt that any mention of the
war can reduce them to tears. It’s as if we believe that they were
so evil that they should hang their heads in shame for eternity. 

Well, if any people should hang their heads in shame for eternity, it
should be the British. My God, who are we to cast such shadows on the
German race. It seems to me that the worst that Hitler was doing was
creating an empire – something the Brits had been doing for
centuries. I don’t defend either race, and as Thomas Blair says,
there is good and bad in all peoples. It is only proaganda that
designates one nation as Satan incarnate. 

Drew, the reason I think Ernst Klee's book was biased was that the
majority of the book was devoted to the activities of Hitler’s
Action forces, the Einsatzgruppen. They went into Russia in advance of
the army with the instruction to seek out and destroy the partisan
elements. This necessiated seeking out and executing terrorists and
underground operators. THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE DONE IN ALL WAR
SITUATIONS. The Russian Jews formed a large part of that partisan
army. Yes, those are graphic pictures – executions performed on the
streets in public view. BUT THIS WAS NOT IN ANY WAY A PROGRAM TO
ELIMINATE A RACE. This was part of a
cture: Message Navigation>

Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nick Sault - Monday, 12/07/98, 5:43:00pm (#43 of 1254) 

This was part of a war against communism (NOTE– a war that later we
were willing to fight with a nuclear holocaust). 

That does not excuse the Germans, of course. It is just that we must
separate war from planned genocide. That is what this is all about.
Are the Jews the most oppressed people in the universe or were they
just on the wrong end of a plan to Germanize Europe. 

How many of the videos you mention actually document the actual
gassing of Jews? I would bet you, none. How many show Jews going into
gas chambers and without a break in the film you see their bodies
being taken out afterwards? Do you see what I am getting at here? I
bet those videos show the activities of the Einsatzgruppen whose
agenda was NOT Jewish genocide. 

I have read both sides of this debate. Have you? 

And, finally, one does not join the Nazis or neo-Nazis to find the
truth. One joins those groups now to propulagate the sort of hate that
Thomas was talking about. 

I am assuming you did not associate Thomas or myself with any of those
groups. I believe I speak on behalf of Thomas in saying we are free
thinkers. 

It is a sad reflection on the this whole affair that anyone
questioning the holocaust is branded either a Nazi or an
anti-semitist, or both. 

Do you see how hard it is to brush away bigotry and bias, and to wade
through decades of propaganda to get at the truth? We are up against a
brick wall of prejudice from the start. 

Please, even if you don't want to read revisionist material, go back
to those museums and videos and look at them with your unbiased eye.
Ask yourself if those horrific things you see are not simply the
horrific things you would see from any war. 

Perhaps you should endeavour to find out the horrific things the
allies did to the Iraqis in the Gulf War. But then that is another can
of worms. The propaganda machine will have made you believe those
people deserved all they got, and so you won't bother to search out
the equally horrific vi



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Monday, 12/07/98, 5:44:15pm (#44 of 1254) 

Perhaps you should endeavour to find out the horrific things the
allies did to the Iraqis in the Gulf War. But then that is another can
of worms. The propaganda machine will have made you believe those
people deserved all they got, and so you won't bother to search out
the equally horrific videos from that war. 

Open your mind, my friend



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Monday, 12/07/98, 6:58:14pm (#45 of 1254) 

The videos of Yale to not contain the attrocities being committed. I
bet ten to one you don't have a cam corder in your bathroom and then
every day at breakfast you share with your family what a fine job you
did on the toilet. 

People who commit attrocities do not record them; some as
brilliant/savant as Mengele put on written record his atrocities as
did many others in power (Himmler/others) so we know that the Jews
extermination, though not at the start, became part of the nazi
platform. In fact, an extremely important part. The idea of wanting to
transport them elsewhere is not consistant with what was done to their
valuables. You don't stick people in another country with zero assets.
That's no way to make friends and influence people. 

As for free thinking, I live in a the bastion of it, am a UU. But what
I hear from you is not free thinking, it is directed thinking; (I know
you don't believe it, Mr. Sault) and I don't plan to change your
"mind". But to put possible innacurate numbers in the same league as
the atrocity itself is not free thinking. It is extremely costly
thinking. Just ask the German government. They are going to great
lenths to make certain nobody that even "smells" of nazi behavior gets
in power. 

I realize you don't have to be a part of the American Nazi Party to be
a part of holocaust revisionism history. However, keep in mind, they
strongly rely on people like you to help "support their statistics".
The most important thing to them is that a similar event happen.
Really. 

On July 24, 1996 Harold Covington, the ANP's leader said "in his
"Importance of Revisionism" speech paraphrasing the Jewish Deborah
Lipstadt, "The real reason of Holocaust revisionism is to make
National Socialism an acceptable political alternative again" He adds,
"I normally don't agree with a Jew says but I recall exclaiming
'bingo...got it in one' Give that lady a cigar". He added later, "Take
aw



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Monday, 12/07/98, 7:02:15pm (#46 of 1254) 

More.....take away the holocaust and what you've got with Hitler and
Nazism is pure brilliance." 

So you see, Mr. Sault, Mr Blair, I actually encourage you to speak
your minds and let the world know how you feel. 

A lot of young people read this board and they too need to learn about
"free thinking" 

Maybe you (Mr. Sault and Mr. Blair) might be just the ones to help
them along.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Monday, 12/07/98, 9:16:16pm (#47 of 1254) 

Drew Hanson 12/7/98 7:02pm 

For all the young people out there - I am entirely individual in my
approach to truth and history. I have no affiliations whatsover. In
fact, I'm one of those people who cannot understand why people want to
belong to societies, groups, armies, gangs, parties, etc. I am a
complete unit in myself, and I would recommend any young person
reading this to try reaching this state of being. It is very
satisfying. 

For you Mr Hansen, I would go take a look at the farce that was the
Nuremburg trials. It bore as little resemblance to a court of justice
as did the ducking chair of the Middle Ages. 

It does worry that the far-rightists could swoop on me as a perceived
ally, but that is unfortunate. Left, right; it's meaningless to me. I
just want to find the truth, and I want to see the end of the world's
most wicked weapon - propaganda.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Monday, 12/07/98, 9:26:16pm (#48 of 1254) 

Drew, I could point you to a lot of information that backs up my
contention that the holocaust was not a holocaust. Unfortunately, for
the very reason you may refuse to read that material, publishers
refuse to publish it. So, unfortunately it has to be published by
private groups, which of course tends to detract from its
authenticity. 

Anyway, if you can, try to get hold of "The Hoax of the Twentieth
Century" by an enormously articulate, intelligent, and scientific man
called Arthur Butz.

cture>



    

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Books Book News & Issues Holocaust account: Is it fact or fiction? 







------------------------------------------------------------------------


Related Site• Book news 
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Recent Stories• Truthfulness of Holocaust memoir in doubt 
• Canonization of Jewish-born nun outrages some Jewish leaders
Related Discussion• Religion today 
• Left-wing history? 
• The author of an award-winning memoir of surviving Nazi
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York Times reported Tuesday, November 3. The book by Binjamin
Wilkomirski, "Fragments: Memories of a Wartime Childhood," was lauded
by Jewish groups and won the National Jewish Book Award in the United
States and the Jewish Quarterly Literary Prize in Britain. 

Some historians have said the book should have been published as
fiction because of doubts about the author's background. 



Do you think the book should have been published as fact or fiction?
If the book is a fraud, what harm do you see coming from it? If
untrue, can the story still have a meaningful effect on teaching about
the holocaust? 






Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nick Sault - Monday, 12/07/98, 9:52:17pm (#49 of 1254) 

Also, you said: 



More.....take away the holocaust and what you've got with Hitler and
Nazism is pure brilliance." 



No, I take issue. You still have an imperialist despot in HItler, and
you still have a movement that is highly bigoted, and reliant of
military might to stamp its authority. It does not lessen the reasons
for the war. 

Also, I take issue with your suggestion that the Nazis' dispossessing
of Jewish valuables amounts to proof that they intended to murder
them. Look at the history prior to the war and you will find that Jews
were settled in Palestine with an allowance. During war time - yes,
this was war, remember, financing the war was a major consideration. 

You have to go back to grass roots and think what the Nazis had
against Jews. The perception was that Jews contributed little to any
society but their own, and for good or bad, this is true in any Jewish
community. They had the perception that Jews were having too much
influence in government and finance. 

Just think logically here. Could you afford to let billions of dollars
leave your country if it was at war. Of course not. It would be
nonsense to allow it. No country would allow it. You would probably be
shot in most countries for trying to smuggle out your valuables during
wartime.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Monday, 12/07/98, 11:08:13pm (#50 of 1254) 

Mr. Sault says.... 

You have to go back to grass roots and think what the Nazis had
against Jews. The perception was that Jews contributed little to any
society but their own, and for good or bad, this is true in any Jewish
community. They had the perception that Jews were having too much
influence in government and finance. 

This is a piece of progadanda that has always amused me (even as a
Christian UU).....though Jews are the smallest of the major religions
on the planet, they make up the highest percentage of ALL relgions for
contributions to society noted by such awards as Nobels (more than any
other) Pulitzers (more than any other), etc etc. 

To think that Jews only contribute to their own society is one of the
most ignorant and closed minded; turning one's head in light of other
evidence that there is. 

But modern-day Germany fortunately is aware of this grave error and
takes great pride in their Jewish contributors (Jews are probably
treated better in Germany than most other countries, thank God). 

The Lancet (Your own British Medical Journal AND the American Medical
Journal agree that the cure for both Aids and Cancer will most likely
come out of Israel); do you think they'll only save the vaccines for
Jews. 

Mr. Sault, I really encourage you to open your own mind. Don't you
think it might just be a case of plain ol' good old fashion racism
that you build your case upon? 

Its a good thing they weren't all wiped out by the way; what if you DO
get cancer or some other catastrophic disease (Jews now have been
involved in nearly every case of major medical breakthroughs since WW2
including heart disease and even a painless new root canal operation
is coming out of Israel. 

I am sure you are independent and "on your own" as you tell the kids;
and it is "those other groups that do the hating and misleading". 

But most kids are a lot smarter than you think. And they are reading
this board. And they wil



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Monday, 12/07/98, 11:11:04pm (#51 of 1254) 

more...and they most likely will respond. Some will agree and some
will disagree......usually depends on their education level.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Thomas Blair - Tuesday, 12/08/98, 8:27:51am (#52 of 1254) 

Mr. Hansen I am even freer of mind than you - for I have cleansed it
of religious dogma - especially that futile dream of universalism. 

Holocaust worship as preached to our schoolchildren could only come
from a religion that believes itself infinitely wronged and so seeks
vengance on the world. 

Everywhere it looks, it sees its own hatred reflected in the faces of
humanity, waiting only an excuse to wreak its terrible vengeance. 

Though you imprison eight thousand people in Germany (as you have),
confiscate and burn books (as you have in Europe and Canada), seize
personal computer equipment (as you plan in Canada), and beat up or
murder every person who will not be intimidated into silence. In the
end the great mass of mankind will not share your hate. 

So go back to your synagogues and sink into the soul-sickness of your
separatism. And take your morality and your holy books with you.
Salvation is by grace - and it is for all.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Tuesday, 12/08/98, 2:39:49pm (#53 of 1254) 

Mr. Blair. That is quite interesting that you consider Univesalism a
"futile dream". Do you even know what it is? Do you know that many (in
fact most) Christian religious scholars (including Edward Lundin)
believed Christ practiced Universalism? 

So tell Christ it was futile. Tell Benjamin Rush it was futile. Tell
Thomas Jefferson (Unitarian) was futile. Tell Susan B. Anthony, Claira
Barton, Kurt Vonnegut, and many many others who contributed greatly to
our society that UU is futile. 

But somehow it is not a surprise that you look at REAL free thinkers
as the separatists. 

Mr. Blair; go back to your Lyndon LaRouche backed Center for
Historical Review (where all your and Mr. Sault's info comes
from)..... 

By the way, Mr. Sault, Mr Lutz; you're highly intelligent articulate
author is mentioned in Northwestern's newspaper recently (where he
teaches); he has NO history degrees; he teaches engineering and in
fact the dean of that department (and Arab); calls him "Marginal at
best. We keep him in a dusty hidden office so he won't bother anyone".
Since he is tenured, Northwestern is in negotiations with him to buy
out the rest of his contract to get him off campus. 

By the way, the Center for Historical Review's newspaper, The
Spotlight backed (yours truly David Duke) for president. 

His voters are the type of people who fall for the revisionist history
concepts (very uneducated usually) and they count on it for
advertising and circulation dollars.








Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Nick Sault - Tuesday, 12/08/98, 4:12:44pm (#54 of 1255) 

Drew Hanson 12/7/98 11:08pm 

My own statement: 



The perception was that Jews contributed little to any society 



I did say the perception. I refuse to get into a great debate over the
Jewish agenda in this world. I have no personal animosity about how
many Jews have positions of great power and influence, SO LONG AS THAT
INFLUENCE IS BENEFICIAL TO EVERYONE. 

Also, I quite readily appreciate the great number of Jewish scholars
in the world, past and present. 

There is a microcosmic example of what I am saying. Consider Fiji.
Many years ago, Indians were taken there to work the sugar
plantations. The Indians are very hard working people, and many are
astute in business. So, over the decades they began to rise into
higher positions in finance and the government of Fiji. In recent
times this has become unnacceptable to the native Fijians who see the
islands becoming more and more Indianised. They have seen their own
native cultures being downtrodden by the very industriousness of the
Indians. So, they began to throw them out of their offices, and out of
the Islands. 

This is not something I support. But there is a moral undertone that
the Fijians wanted to keep their Island Fijian. 

Far be it from me to use the phrase "moral undertone" in talking about
Nazi Germany - the world at large would shoot me down for that.
However, call it what you may, the Germans saw that their
institutions, their industries and even their government was being run
or influenced by Jews. 

Jews were seen as fat industialists sitting on their backsides
counting money while the sturdy, muscular Germanic sweated at good,
honorable labor. 

As with the Indians in Fiji (also in Africa), the Jews probably never
intend to perform the gradual takeover of power that seems apparant. I
don't believe it is an intention, no more than I think the
extermination of Jews was an intention by the Nazis. But, you have to
understan



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Tuesday, 12/08/98, 4:14:02pm (#55 of 1255) 

But, you have to understand that no country will gladly tolerate it
indefinately. 

Perhaps the world would run smoother if the whole shabang was run by
Jews. Who knows? But, the reality is that there is too much
nationalism in the world for that ever to happen without much
resentment. 

Are you AMerican? Yes, you must be. Then you will know that this
resentment is smouldering in the US. It is not racism. It is fear of
losing national identity. 

That was the major motivation in Germany. Or rather, it was a
proactive effort to completely germanize Germany. 

You are wrong about me, Drew. I live by the moral code of freedom for
everybody. I am an immigrant here in New Zealand and I love to see the
nice mix of peoples that are coming to live here. But, and a big but.
The vast majority of New Zealanders resent that great influx of new
blood. A lot of Asians are coming here and most are phenomenally
industrious. They are performing better than the national average in
schools, universities, and out in the workplace, and there is fear
that this will become an Asian country. 

That fear is wrong. The world is for the world (do you believe that as
strongly as me, Drew? I bet you don't). BUT, the reality is that 99.99
% of the people of this world do NOT go along with that. The reality
is that most people are nationalistic. 

That reality is the one great reason that Jews have suffered
resentment. 

On a big scale, the Germans were doing what the Fijians have lately
done. The German's mistake was to escalate a war to the point where
the logistics of their plan ran amok.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Tuesday, 12/08/98, 7:10:00pm (#56 of 1255) 

And the difference between the Germans and the Fijis (most probably);
is that the Germans have had many years to come to terms (and to
grips) with the fact that they were wrong; dead wrong that Jews were
"taking over"; in fact; the opposite was true; and in fact, they teach
that daily in their schools; and more Jews percentage wise of who live
there; are in higher positions of power as ever before. And
antisemitism there is at an all time low. (of course there are still
the uneducated fanatics but they are on earth since its history). 

Jews are as different from each other as night and day. Some have
great ambitions and some have little; to say "Jews do this" or "Jews
do that" shows tremendous ignorance. 

And you did refer in your original post to what the Nazi's perception
was of the Jews "like it or not, that is what Jews do in their
community" or close to that. 

Mr. Sault, I have a strong feeling you do not know too many Jews. I
do. I know some who attend our church. I know one I cannot stand and I
know about 24 that I would rather hang out with than anyone else.
There are 6 Moslem at our church and 4 of them are angels as friends. 

You see, in UU, we get a true picture of what people are really like.
And most are just plain old people. Jew and Gentile. Islam,
agnostic...etc. 

I have a feeling that the Fijis are not annihialating the Indians and
taking their gold teeth and possessions or we would already have heard
about it. Oh sorry, I forgot.. that "never happened." How could I be
so clumsy? 

The stuff that you are quoting is very reflective of the Center for
Historical Review, an anti- semetic group that raises monies (for
itself); based on people's fears of Jews. I used to live in D.C. where
their offices are and they were horrendous; nearly every staff member
has lied about their education, work history; etc; they all have ties
to David Duke, Lyndon LaRouche, etc. and these are the peop



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Tuesday, 12/08/98, 7:25:26pm (#57 of 1255) 

More.....Mr. Sault; those are the type people who are the parasites of
America and that is why they remain on the fringe and that is the
strength of America; there is no "conspiracy" to keep them out of
mainstream; that is not the way our country works. 

They stay out of mainstream on their own volition. 

The resentment against Jews in America generally derives from the same
ignorants who resent blacks, gays, etc. etc.; it is a form of
self-hatred and the victim is not even aware. It is fear of the
unknown; fear of change, fear of many things. But it is all based on
fear; we are not born with that kind of hate. It takes many years to
fully-develop. I get the feeling you are past your 20's now.







Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Drew Hanson - Tuesday, 12/08/98, 11:27:06pm (#58 of 1255) 

Interesting, Mr. Sault that you demand that Jews contributions to
society benefit everyone. Since such a huge percentage of Jews have
made the highest contributions to medicine in this century; lets just
use that as an example. Do you know any white supremist, and moslem,
any member of Center for Historical Review, or any John Bircher or
klansman denied medical treatment because they were members of those
groups. 

Now lets turn it around. What have any one of those groups done that
is a contribution to Jews? 

Shouldn't it be quid pro quo? If you are demanding Jews do for us;
shouldn't we HAVE to make our own contributions for all? 

Otherwise..well, case closed.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Tuesday, 12/08/98, 11:28:43pm (#59 of 1255) 

Thanks Drew, you have neatly turned this around to make me appear
anti-semitic. The fact is, as we pointed out from the beginning, it is
impossible to debate this issue with the vast majority of people
without accusations of being anti-semitic or Nazi. That is why I made
the statement early on about opening a can of worms. 

The subject matter of this discussion is whether or not it is
acceptable to imbellish stories about the holocaust. Even if there was
a Nazi plan to exterminate all Jews (and there is not one piece of
paper evidence for that out of the immense Nazi bureaucracy), the
statistics we have been fed with have come into serious question.
Someone somewhere has lied. Propaganda has dug its ugly hand into the
story. If you disbelieve that, you are a fool. Because of that, it is
totally immoral to embellish fictional stories with horrors that did
not happen. 

Until all the truth is out, it is evil to further embellish the
holocaust story. Unfortunately, the truth is going to take a long time
to come out because the propaganda has been of the highest form the
world has seen. 

By the way, Drew, I was brought up in East London and had many Jewish
friends. The staement about most being ordinary people goes for the
whole world. It is only the few that stir things up and want power,
isn't it? So, it only takes a few powerful people in the right places.
It is not my doing that a race gets branded for the sins of the few. 

Example: I think you will find that the moral character of the whole
American race has been diminished in the eyes of the world by the
activities of one Bill Clinton. I know that is not a reflection on you
personally, but a vast number of people in this world will think it
is.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Oleg Ovchinski - Wednesday, 12/09/98, 1:26:04am (#60 of 1255) 

Nick Sault 12/8/98 11:28pmNick Sault 12/8/98 11:28pm 

"By the way, Drew, I was brought up in East London and had many Jewish
friends." 

East London in South Africa, Eastern Cape? I am trying to find out
about your background...



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Thomas Blair - Wednesday, 12/09/98, 8:32:23am (#61 of 1255) 

Drew Hanson 12/8/98 7:10pm 



Germans..[were]..dead wrong that Jews were "taking over" 



I never would have believed this either until the WJC and Simon
Weisenthal Center began their shakedown of the West. According to
these Jewish organizations, Jews owned most of the gold, foreign bank
accounts, and fine art, and much of the jewelry, and land in Germany
and Austria. 



Jews are as different from each other as night and day. 



So are Germans. So stop your blood libel of them. You are the only one
in this forum who claims that Jews engage in a conspiracy. 

One thing I CAN say about Jews. They are united by a religion. It is a
religion that I find offensive and one that I have every right to
criticise. Ideas have consequences. One of those consequences is hate.




You see, in UU, we get a true picture of what people are really like. 



All religions say that. I have no problem with your religion drew -
just please don't shove it down my throat. 



John Bircher or klansman...David Duke, Lyndon LaRouche... 



There is literally no difference between your views Mr. Hansen and the
views of the famous Jewish hero Baruch Goldstein who believed that
Jews have a God-given right to the Middle East and a God-given right
to kill anyone who gets in their way. 

Two can play that game Mr. Hanson.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Thomas Blair - Wednesday, 12/09/98, 10:47:19am (#62 of 1255) 

Drew Hanson 12/8/98 2:39pm 



is quite interesting that you consider Univesalism a "futile dream".
Do you even know what it is? 



Well gee I thought so! But I'm sure you'd be willing to give me a full
explanation of your religion - and pin one of your curse words "nazi,
"anti-Semite", "racist" on anyone who doesn't care to join. 

Drew Hanson 12/8/98 7:25pm 



They stay out of mainstream on their own volition 



Tell me Mr. Hanson. Would you have any problem with other races /
nations / ethnic groups who practised separatism? 

Drew Hanson 12/8/98 7:25pm 



The resentment against Jews in America generally derives from the same
ignorants who resent blacks, gays, 



The resentment against Germans generall derives from the same
ignorants who resent southern whites, Arabs, Black Muslims,
Palestinians, Serbians, Iraqis, Swiss, Austrians, Poles, and Eastern
Europeans.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Wednesday, 12/09/98, 2:52:28pm (#64 of 1255) 

I live with klan all around me and have all my life. Have attended a
klan rally. I know many of them, respect few of them, and forgive all
of them (for they know not what they do). They suffer big time
consequences for their behaviors; (even in the south). And, no, as
hard as it is to believe, it is not a "Jewish Conspiracy" that makes
them suffer. They do it on their own volition. Education is the cure.







Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Thomas Blair - Wednesday, 12/09/98, 3:27:20pm (#65 of 1255) 

I see klan-stuff on the news, in the media, and in these forums all
the time - yet I HAVE NEVER SEEN A KLAN RALLY OR A KLANSMAN. I don't
believe there are such people. Where do you live? 

Klansmen are poor, uneducated, whites from the backwaters who make
$7/hour in some dead-end job. They know they are hated for their race
and bitter at their exploitation. And people like you call them "white
supremacists". 

Meanwhile the real white supremacists - those white people who run the
media, government, academy - those who make war in the Middle East,
read the Wall Street Journal, and summer in the Hamptons - are safe
from your curses because they sit next to you in your Unitarian
churches and your synogogues. 

Ye hypocrites!



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Wednesday, 12/09/98, 5:36:18pm (#66 of 1255) 

Oleg Ovchinski 12/9/98 1:26am 

If you had followed all my posts you would have seen my comment about
my having played in bombed-out buildings when I was a kid.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Wednesday, 12/09/98, 5:46:04pm (#67 of 1255) 

Mr. Blair. Glad to see you post again. You do a lot of my work for me.


Yes, there is indeed (still) a klan; I live about 75 miles from New
Orleans. David Duke is still my neighbor and there are many others. 

I am white and protestant and I do not believe people hate me for
that; if anything I have more acceptance than most people. If klan
members want to think otherwise about their white skin, that is their
business. You, the same. 

We have about a 20% African American Membership at our UU church. We
have an active campaign to recruit more. We are hardly separatists. In
fact, Thomas Jefferson, a Unitarian fathered several children from one
of his slaves; I call that pretty much togetherness (wouldn't you?). 

Mr. Sault, just out of curiousity, who are these powerful Jews in high
places. Letsee, I used to work for "down under's" most powerful man.
Was his name Rupert Murdochstein? I don't think so. 

We've got some really powerful Jews here in America; letsee in media
we have Ted Turnersburg (CNN), we had Sam Waltonstein (Walmart), and
banking letsee, ah yes, The Rockefellerbergs. 

Boy seems, to me we need to look at our own race as people in high
places. 

I really don't know who the Jews are. Could you name a few for me?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Wednesday, 12/09/98, 5:49:06pm (#68 of 1255) 

Drew 

Consider a good man whose beloved only daughter becomes a prostitute,
unbeknown to him. When somebody at last has the courage to tell him,
"hey, sorry to have to tell you this, but your daughter is a whore",
how will he react? Utter disbelief, and if he could, he would attempt
to sue the informer for slander. He won'y want to know the truth, and
will criminalize anybody who tries to tell him the truth. 

I have no idea how many of the staff of the Instutute For Historical
Review are bigots, white-supremecists or anti-semitists, or how many
are people just searching for truth and justice. But one thing for
sure, because of the close-mindedness and tunnel vision of the world
at large, the IHR will always be branded with the former labels. If
the major publishers of the world refuse to publish any scholarly
arguments against the holocaust (and there are many), then it will
always appear that the revisionists are an underground movement. It is
almost a no-win situation, which is so, so sad in this supposed era of
free-speech.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Wednesday, 12/09/98, 6:26:38pm (#70 of 1255) 

Look Drew (also Oleg and any other readers out there), I would not
care one hoot if Jews ruled the world, so long as everybody had equal
opportunity under them. I am talking here from the practicality point
of view. People in general do not like to have their lives influenced
or controlled by one group of people. Thomas Blair has given you
examples of how the Jews did that in Germany, and he could probably
furnish you with a lot more examples. 

Of course, the Jews' activities did not deserve a holocaust, and did
not deserve a mass deportation. If dispossession and deportation was
the final solution, it is a far cry from extermination. It could even
be forgiven in time, as we see the same sort of thing going on in
Europe and Africa today. 

However, we have to get to the bottom of the holocaust story, because
with it as it stands, plus the embellishments that get added all the
time, forgivness is at the end of the universe.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Wednesday, 12/09/98, 6:59:43pm (#71 of 1255) 

I think what we have, Mr. Sault, is a difference in the value of human
life. 

You on the one hand say the holocaust should be forgiven because "we
see the same sort of thing going on in Europe and Africa today". 

I beg to differ. I am for taking action; Hussein was doing it and we
took action; Jugoslavia was doing it and felt the consequences; today
though, since we live in a global village economy; we can often
forewarn a nation in its early stages without a war. Money can talk
big time against ethnic purging. But sometimes war is necessary. 

Just the death of ONE person the U.S. due to their ethncity is a HATE
CRIME Mr. Sault and Mr. Blair. Is that sinking in? Because if it's
not, you might be doomed to repeat history.. We Americans learned
about this crime from history. And often the repeaters of historyare
not on the killing side. So I hope you are getting educated here. It
might just save your life....really. 

If I found out my daughter was a prostitute I would start immediate
rehabilitation and admit the seriousness of the problem. Stupid
analogy. 

Movies, like medicine and science are another wonderful contributions
Jews have made to our country making it one of the most admired and
envied of the world. Other countries of the world's colleges have
based their film programs on the Hollywood model. 

All Mr. Blair stated was that Jews owned much gold and art during the
40's. So...what's the point. That means they ran things? Who were
these Jewish leaders? He has not named any. 

Who are these Jewish leaders in the U.S. running things. 

You are running out of rhetoric with no real facts or answers. 

And by the way; where are those white supremist contributions to us
all? 

You're arguments are getting pitiful. May have to leave the board
awhile and find an intelligent one. 

Thanks though for your "words".







Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Drew Hanson - Wednesday, 12/09/98, 8:24:42pm (#72 of 1255) 

Mr. Blair states "One thing I can say about Jews....they are united by
a religion". 

Mr. Blair...seems like you know Judiasm about as well as you know
Unitarianism. 

But that's ok...here's a crash course. 

There has never been a religion more UNunited than Judiasm (to my
knowledge). There are three different sects that are 3 totally
different religions and disagree on almost everything from
pro-life/abortion rights to Israel and its boundaries. 

They are not united in any way and in fact that is probably the ONLY
reason they don't rule things in the world. 

There is an old saying..."put two jews in a room and you'll have three
different opinions". 

I really encourage you to know people, socialize with them, do
business with them, and THEN make a decision about them. 

It is then and only then that you are able to tell propaganda from
reality. And that's a promise. 

Hope this helps.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Robert Caleb Tomanek - Thursday, 12/10/98, 5:02:47pm (#73 of 1255) 

To Whom It May Concern, 

Christianity and Islam are broken into different sects which many
people, including a few in those sects, consider different religions.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Raymond John - Thursday, 12/10/98, 9:04:59pm (#74 of 1255) 

The Nazi death camps have been out of business for some 58 years. In
those camps the Nazis killed Jews, Poles, Russians, Gypsies, and who
knows who else. The Russians killed Russians. The Japanese killed
Chinese, and Koreans. One could go on and on. What I am belly sick and
bone tired of is hearing about the jews, as if they are somehow
special and civilization can't go on until their story has been
repeated ten thousand times. Endless stories, real and imagined, drawn
out movies about their tribulations, meetings, monuments, Etc. Get
over it... The Nazis responsible for it are dead or senile. The
inmates from the death camps are dead or senile. The past is as dead
as the dinosaurs. Today is the first day of the rest of your life.
Enjoy it as best you can.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Thursday, 12/10/98, 10:11:31pm (#75 of 1255) 

What makes the Jews so special in this case (getting killed along side
Russians, gypsies, etc) is not that they are Jews at all. 

It is the fact that they are a religion (no matter WHAT the religion).


It is because it was an attempt to wipe out a religion; not another
enemy country; not even an armed entity; a religion....simply because
OF their religion. 

I, for one, can forgive it. It's not easy, because it is not easy for
me to forgive the killing of even one person. 

More recently, there was an attempt by the Serbs to wipe out Moslems
(not worldwide but in their country), simply because they were OF a
religion. 

That is very very important. Armed countries being at war is very very
different than malicious genocide. 

THAT, Mr. John, is what is so important about them being Jews.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Thursday, 12/10/98, 10:17:22pm (#76 of 1255) 

Raymond John 12/10/98 9:04pm 

Very refreshing. 

Drew Hanson 12/9/98 6:59pm 

I was saying we could forgive the deportations and the incarcerations.
I myself would find it hard to forgive genocide.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Thursday, 12/10/98, 11:20:45pm (#77 of 1255) 

Well, I even forgive the genocides (as it is taught in my religion to
forgive all sins); and clearly it was genocide in Germany same as it
was in Yugoslavia. I just choose never to forgive it and applaud what
education has done to teach it in U.S. schools. I applaud what the
German government and people has done to change, grow, and ressurrect
(as Christ taught we can heal), and I forgive all who are holocaust
revisionists or deniers as "they know not what they do". 

If we as Christians had not learned from The Inquisition, The
Holocaust, witch hunts and other atrocities, then we are doomed to
repeat them. And we did not become the great religion we have become
by denying our trials and tribulations. We admit them, pray we
learned, and move forward.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Thomas Blair - Friday, 12/11/98, 8:55:42am (#78 of 1255) 

Drew Hanson 12/9/98 8:24pm 

I was trying to be kind by calling Jews united by religion. They are
clearly a nation. And that nation has someting to distinguish itself
from those who are not members. 

If the jewish nation is not one of religious commonality then it is
one of race. If that is so then the UN was correct 20 years ago when
it declared ZIONISM == RACISM. 

There are lots of arguments over who is a Jew - but Israel exists as a
homeland to Jews - and a place that disciminates in favor of members
of the jewish nation and against people who are not members of that
nation. 

No other nation of people exists that would be allowed to discriminate
against jews in the same way. 

All your jewish curse words Mr. Hanson ("racist", "klansman",
"antisemite") are used to avoid arguing real issues.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Friday, 12/11/98, 2:29:30pm (#79 of 1255) 

Mr. Blair; you may (or may not be aware) that the U.N. has withdrawn
their statement of Zionism = Racism. 

Israel exists as a safe harbor for Jews to be able to escape countries
who persecute them. That is a fair thing to ask of any group. 

Many Palestineans feel persecuted in Israel and are forming their own
nation, Palestine. It will be used as a safe harbor for Palestineans
who have been persecuted against. 

From your posted philosphies, Mr. Blair, I can only imagine that you
would, then, be against Palestine. They, in fact, will be a favored
group in their nation (and why shouldn't they be)? 

By the way, most Palestineans, in fact a majority, will continue to
live in Israel (they were educated there; many are doctors, lawyers,
etc. and do not plan to leave their practices.)








Msg #  




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Raymond John - Friday, 12/11/98, 5:24:48pm (#80 of 1255) 

Mr. Hanson: To me, killing is killing and any and all semantic
hair-splitting as regards why the killing was done is, at best, an
attempt by someone to justify their own agenda.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Friday, 12/11/98, 6:28:26pm (#81 of 1255) 

Well, Mr. John, you are welcome to your opinion, just know they are
opposite to mainstream world opinion, such as The United Nations; who
has depicted in their ordinances what constitutes a war, and what
constitutes genocide. What happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany was
genocide. What the result was was war. Due to international law, there
are tremendous differences in waging war and waging consequence. You
and I fall under international law (I'm assuming you live on earth)
and would suffer dire consequences if we waged either. Good to know
that; so as not to repeat history. Good luck to ya!!! 

Mr. Blair; you still have not answered; are you against a united
Palestinian state? Because it supports your argument that there should
not be one. Or is it just Jews that you discriminate against. Either
way is fine with me. Just curious.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Friday, 12/11/98, 6:30:44pm (#82 of 1255) 

...meant "waging war and waging genocide...not consequence". I stand
corrected.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Friday, 12/11/98, 6:37:26pm (#83 of 1255) 

In international law, killing is hardly killing. If waging war, you
may have a justified reason to wage war (or fire back) and suffer no
consequences (from the international community). The only consequences
would, of course, be from the actual outcome of the war. 

There is, according to international law NEVER a justification for
genocide. 

Do you get the difference? It is a very important one.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Saturday, 12/12/98, 12:42:56am (#84 of 1255) 

Getting back to the topic of the book about the holocaust being a
hoax, I think the story itself makes an interesting point. 

It was written and released by The New York Times. I have lived in New
York and know that a good many Jewish people work at the times and sit
on their editorial board. 

If they were trying to promote lies and distortions about the
holocaust, they would certainly be interested in promoting a National
Book Award book and no tearing it down. 

The Times are sticnklers for the truth; it is why they are one of the
top Pulitzer winner papers in the U.S. (they may be THE top now, not
positive). 

Can you see the point? They will only write (positively) about a book
about the Holocaust if the facts can be proven.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Bernhard Schopper - Saturday, 12/12/98, 11:44:27pm (#85 of 1255) 

You on the one hand say the holocaust should be forgiven because "we
see the same sort of thing going on in Europe and Africa today". 

I beg to differ. I am for taking action; Hussein was doing it and we
took action... - Drew Hanson

Israel is doing it and we take no action. And we will not even if
Israel nails the Palestinians on the Star of David (which is what they
would like to do.)



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Sunday, 12/13/98, 6:33:05pm (#86 of 1255) 

Yeah, we keep hearing Israel is doing it, yet Arabs serve in their
Knesset, Palestineans are becoming lawyers and doctors and remaining
in Israel, with no interest in moving to Gaza. Their valuables remain
theirs. A large percentage of Palestineans drive Mercedes and BMW's.
Israel just put 600 million dollars into an industrial complex in Gaza
that will employ Palestineans. I think the Palestineans would like to
see more of this kind f persecution. Sorry, taking the focus away from
the holocaust momentarily Benrnard is a nice diversion, but if we are
going to do it, lets find another real genocide (like Jugoslavia and
Bosnia).



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Sunday, 12/13/98, 9:26:41pm (#87 of 1255) 

Drew, 

Your religion preaches forgiveness, but are humans strong enough to
forgive anything? 

Along with the gassings the Nazis stand accused of the most horrific
human experiments. Some of the worst were supposedly performed on
women or girls, as some kind of quest for more gynacological
knowledge. 

Just imagine one of the victims of this horror of all horrors was your
wife or your daughter. Could you forgive? I'm honest and say I could
not, and I believe that only God is powerful enough to forgive at that
level. 

Many people may say thay can forgive when they are not appraised of
all the facts. But when one knows the worst, I don't believe there is
a human on the Earth could claim to forgive. It is sanctimonious
nonsense to say you could. 

That is why the holocaust needs to be thoroughly and exhaustively
researched to get at the truth. Even if the holocaust basically
happened, we need to get the facts, and keep the story based only on
facts. It is much too much a horror story already to embellish it like
a western movie. 

Forensic science is advanced enough now to lay this thing to rest.
What is stopping this research happening? It is the constant feed of
propaganda and embellishment that goes into the holocaust story to
keep it flourishing. It is this that makes people like you (the vast
majority) so convinced that it all happened that you would argue until
your dying day that no investigation is necessary.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Monday, 12/14/98, 3:45:44am (#88 of 1255) 

Mainstream forensic science agrees today with the story that is told
by the holocaust museum today. It has been laid to rest; not to worry
Mr. Sault. 

Mr. Sault; are you aware that the current German government is in
total agreement with the Simon Weisenthal account of the holocaust and
you are not. Do you think the German government is also influenced by
some vast mysterious Jewish lobby. 

Get a grip sir.








Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Drew Hanson - Monday, 12/14/98, 3:48:48am (#89 of 1255) 

To add.....re: forgiveness. I agree; if I were a survivor to anyone at
any of the camps, I doubt seriously I could ever forgive the nazis
atrocities. 

By the same token, it is easy for me to forgive from afar. No one, so
far has attempted genocide of UU's so I cannot say what I would do if
a repeat of the nazi atrocities ever happened to my loved ones but for
once I think I agree with you, Mr. Sault; I would probably not forgive
or forget.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Tuesday, 12/15/98, 8:51:17pm (#92 of 1255) 

Never has a revisionist ever given me a clear answer on this (and I've
asked it to many). 

Both the Weisenthal Museum and the German government agree on the
precise account of the Holocaust. 

If you have some information that the German Government and survivors
themselves were unable to get, why don't you share it with the German
government. Don't you think it would help the immensely? Or are they,
too, under the influence of some giant mysterious Jewish lobby that
does not allow them to utter the truth ever. Just curious.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Nick Sault - Thursday, 12/17/98, 4:18:38am (#93 of 1255) 

Drew 

I am not sure that contemporary Germany's acceptance of the holocaust
is any more proof that it all happened, than any other nations
acceptance. 

I think Germany has been deeply shamed into this acceptance. And the
holocaust is so ingrained in us all now that Germany would take
extreme censure from the rest of the world by taking any other stand.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Friday, 12/18/98, 8:59:39pm (#94 of 1255) 

The German government was not "deeply shamed" into anything. They
methodically voted and put into constitution immediately after the war
to never let another thing like that happen in their government. They
had shamed themselves, admitted it and moved on. That is the reason
they can hold their heads up today with dignity. No, no Jewish group
has shamed the German government into admitting anything. None had to.
They had already admitted such. I find that quite significant. That's
why its a closed case (as far as the German government is concerned).
However I am certain if they ever found any true evidence to prove
otherwise, it would be to their great benefit (historically). However,
they have seen your revisionist accounts; and nothing has convinced
even them.....I don't know how you expect it to convince me.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Bernhard Schopper - Tuesday, 12/22/98, 3:33:39am (#95 of 1255) 

Both the Weisenthal Museum and the German government agree on the
precise account of the Holocaust. - Drew Hanson

Before you yokels are discussing German politics, why not get your
spelling right. It's "Wiesenthal", not "Weisenthal."

Contemporary Germany should have not guilt feelings about its past.
Anti-semitism, including the killing of Jews, was practiced in many
eastern and western European countries for many centuries.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Josh Wilner - Wednesday, 12/23/98, 5:24:52pm (#96 of 1255) 

Bernhard, 

Your attempt to compare the situation in Israel to Nazi Germany
demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of what happened in the
holocaust. 

Israel is not practicing genocide, the Nazi's did. 

And in spite of the fact that these events took 50 years ago, there is
every reason not to allow people to forget, including Germans. 

There are still large numbers of survivors of the camps, and there are
still large numbers of Nazis who survived. 

Forget the past and you are doomed to repeat it.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Thursday, 12/24/98, 9:26:47pm (#97 of 1255) 

Mr. Shopper. You seem overly angry at the misplacement of an vowel
before another vowel. 

That is a very good sign (for in any debate class they teach that when
your adversary is so riled about such a trivial technality they have
no real facts for their argument). 

This of course, was no surprise to me; but it seems like it might come
as a surprise to you. I really feel like you believe the propaganda
you read (or perhaps write). But keep doing it. It simply adds to the
education of what can happen if people try to forget a very historical
event. 

And what Josh says is correct. Those who don't learn history are often
doomed to repeat it. And the killing side is often not the killers the
second time around.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Bernhard Schopper - Thursday, 12/24/98, 9:47:49pm (#98 of 1255) 

Israel is not practicing genocide, the Nazi's did. - Josh Wilner

What is the difference between the Nazis killing 6 million Jews over a
period of six years and the Israelis killing 6 million Palestinians
over a period of 60 years (which will happen for sure?)



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Friday, 12/25/98, 2:58:47am (#99 of 1255) 

Many many many Jews (and non Jews and Arabs) have been killed by
Palestinians over the years. Many of them have been very armed and
very dangerous. They have been at war with Israeli Jews. They have
been at war with their own Arab brothers (ousted from Jordan and
Lebanon). 

Jews in Nazi Germany did not wear explosives and blow up planes and
Trade Centers and villages. 

That would be one major difference, Mr. Schopper.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Bernhard Schopper - Friday, 12/25/98, 1:27:30pm (#100 of 1255) 

Mr. Hanson, the Israelis occupy land that legitimately belongs to the
Palestinians. So the Palestinians have a legitimate right to drive out
the Israelis by whatever means.

You might recall the Hungarian uprising in the 50s against Soviet
occupation. Or similar events that happened in Poland.

I do not condone what the Nazis did to the Jews, because of mad
obsessions of their leader. However, as I have stated it before, Nazi
Germany was not the only country that persecuted Jews.

And in my opinion, the Israelis have learned a lot from the Nazis in
regard to techniques for exterminating adversaries.








Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Drew Hanson - Friday, 12/25/98, 5:47:42pm (#101 of 1256) 

The Palestinians lost the land to Israel in 1948 by refusing to accept
the British mandate of dividing it. All is fair in love and war; it is
why Texas is Texas and not North Mexico. I am sorry the Palestinians
chose war; it would have prevented much suffering. 

Again, you've got armed people blowing things up. Not so in Nazi
Germany. See the difference?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Bernhard Schopper - Friday, 12/25/98, 9:55:58pm (#102 of 1256) 

The Palestinians lost the land to Israel in 1948 by refusing to accept
the British mandate of dividing it. - Drew Hanson

In 1917, the Balfour Declaration guaranteed a Jewish national home in
Palestine without prejudice to the rights of Arabs there. This was not
acceptable to the Arabs. After the Six-Day-War in 1967, Israel refused
to return captured land to what the Palestinians claimed is their
territory.

This would be akin to Nazi Germany refusing to return conquered
territories, if it had not been defeated.

I agree with you that "all is fair in love and war," or better said:
"The end justifies the means."



------------------------------------------------------------------------




fredrick rynberger - Friday, 12/25/98, 10:38:58pm (#103 of 1256) 

GIVE ME THE FACTS AND NOTHING BUT THE FACTS. 

NOW that more info is being published about WW2 and the so-called plan
of mass exterminations, the more questions that arise. Anyone or any
group not willing to debate the facts as they exist instead of
perpetuating a lie will only find a greater hostility by refusing the
Facts and nothing but the Facts. Recently a French author was fined
and convicted in France for mearly questioning the facts of mass
extermination by the nazi and was accused of inciting racial
hatred...if that can be done in France it can be done anywhere and
that is scary. When anyone can debate the most controversial of all
books, that being the bible ,,why on earth can we not discuss the
"called" atrocities of WW2



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Saturday, 12/26/98, 3:32:30pm (#104 of 1256) 

Frederich....best stick to your rats eating (Palestinian Christian)
entrail stories in Israel. They are about as credible. Keep trying
pal. 

Schopper: Israel IS Israel. Soon Palestine will be Palestine. BOTH
sides have been killing each other. So what is your point?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




fredrick rynberger - Saturday, 12/26/98, 5:07:26pm (#105 of 1256) 

hanson....hmmm, sure thought that was a sweedish or norwegian name,
how times change. 

Rather then apply arrogance with ignorance, it may be better for you
to read a couple of noted jewish authors...Benjeman Friedman and Prof
Israel Shahak..probably the greatest factual books concerning jews,
judaism and zionism. of course, you will have the usual responsive
banter but I doubt if your in their league.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Saturday, 12/26/98, 6:43:08pm (#106 of 1256) 

Fortunately you are correct (I'm in neither Friedman or Shahak's
league); nor, if I am lucky, will I ever be. There are plenty of
self-hating Jews out there just as there are many self-hating
Christians, athiests, etc. (and many have made big time bucks off of
it including Friedman and Shahak). For once I can agree with
you...nope..not in their league.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Sunday, 12/27/98, 9:43:01pm (#108 of 1256) 

Mr Schopper, being part German (German maternal grandparents), I can
assure you I am aware of many German's cleverness. 

I am, however, surprised when one falls for the type propaganda you
seem to fall for. 

It's for shame, because possibly otherwise possibly a bright mind. Oh
well, there is waste all around the world. Why should I worry about
one more lost soul?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Tuesday, 12/29/98, 7:30:36pm (#110 of 1256) 

By the way, Josh, one of the most important lesson of "history
repeating itself" is that the one's who fail to learn it are often the
victims the second time around. 

Be ever so humble; the truth shall set you free. 

No matter whose "side" one is on, it is important to learn (real)
history, Mr. Schopper. It could save your life.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




D. MOLINO - Monday, 01/04/99, 2:53:14pm (#112 of 1256) 

Good Morning! And Happy New Year to you all. 

I am sorry to hear the questioning of the holocaust, and mostly
because I know something about it. I used to work for a couple of
doctors, one of whom was the neice of the woman who wrote the book:
"Playing for Keeps". This was the story of how the Germans used the
Jews to keep them entertained while in the camps, a nicer
entertainment than the hospitals atrocities provided. They were kept
alive to play and sing for them. This was later made into a movie
shown on T.V.. Fortunately, her aunt sent the doctor a copy and I had
a chance to read it. Perhaps some of you would find it interesting
reading. 

As for stories about the founding of Israel, Chaim Potok wrote about
four stories around the jews of that time and one "The Chosen" on the
reestablishment, and fund raising for the reestablsihment, of Israel.
He is said to have an eidetic memory (commonly called photographic
memory) so his accounts could be trusted to be accurate. 

I will leave those of you who are sincere the opportunity to read
those books and judge for yourselves as to the accuracy of such
things. 

I have already decided, based on experiences and reading that I
believe the holocaust accounts and that the Israelis bought the land
when they came back to Israel and the Arabs regretted selling it, some
disagreed with the sale, partially, probably, due to the "stiff
neckedness" and "We are the chosen people" attitudes. The problem is
that both sides claim to be chosen and the only ones chosen by God.
Good reading. Love, Peace and Wisdom.








Msg #  




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CheenuSJ - Wednesday, 01/06/99, 6:24:24am (#113 of 1256) 

I just have one question for anybody well-informed: Under what
rationale did, whatever body it was, conclude that from a 600,000
(actual) count of Jewish holocaust victims, that 6 million Jews
"disappeared" during WWII? And how is it that today, in the Western
world, this number of 6 million is an accepted "fact"?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Josh Wilner - Friday, 01/08/99, 4:13:07pm (#119 of 1256) 

Several posters have taken up the holocaust revisionist banner under
the guise of searching for the truth. 

They claim that the number of Jews that were killed is exaggerated. I
wonder if these people have ever stopped to consider how sad it is
that they argue over the number of people who were murdered. 

As if 3 million murdered is somehow less disturbing than 6 million. 

Its this kind of "bean counting" that helps to keep these "doubters"
from recognizing the crime against humanity that took place.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




fredrick rynberger - Saturday, 01/09/99, 2:03:25pm (#120 of 1256) 

Josh.wilner 

It's not that no one realizes the number of people killed in WW2 but
the continued captilization of the holocau$t is offensive to those who
have lost their own relatives. Over the last fify years the jews have
turned a terrible event for millions into a "jew war" and that is not
what happened. It is decitful to try and rewrite history to blame
evreyone on planet earth for what hapened to the jews.I was a very pro
jewish individual at one time but the continued biased movies and
books that make the Germans , Catholics and damn near evreyone else
the fall guy's for what happened is counter productive. I say it is
counter productive as the world now looks at Israel and how they treat
their neighbors, especially the Palestianians and see too much
similarity as to how the jews were treated in ww2. 

So many facts are now surfacing about the "war" and details that
conflict with the stories that have been told and it is necessary to
have a more non-biased and honest assesement of the facts. Anyone who
is afraid of the truth is simply not wanting to be honest themselves. 

I do take extreme offense at the number of holocau$t museums in
America as it was NOT Americans who persecuted the jews...Trying to
instill some form of Guilt complex in the non-jewish population (now
at 97.5 %) is so ridiculous as to make me feel nothing but contempt
for this injustice. Better to have American Indian Museums for all
Americans to feel some remorse about then any minority immigrant
faction.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




william greenfield - Sunday, 01/10/99, 1:13:37am (#123 of 1256) 

Fredrick Rynberger, YES,the germans, the catholics, not just in WW2
but down through the ages are guilty they help killed the Jews in the
name of CHRIST , so everybody is guilty of the Holocaust. You should
read 2 books "Unholy Trinity and The secret war against the Jews" by
John Loftus and Mark Aarons. It might open up your eyes. Also how can
you compare the problem in Isreal to the Holocaust. The Isreali's are
not making the Palestianians dig there own graves and then shooting
them in the back of the head, they are not forceing men, woman and
children into gas chambers or burning them alive are they. so please
DO NOT make any comparison between the two. The state of Israel is
need not for you but for us, so if another Holocaust happens the
Jewish people will have a country to go to and will not have to
worried about being turned away like they did once before.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




fredrick rynberger - Sunday, 01/10/99, 8:37:44am (#124 of 1256) 

William////have read that propaganda and may I suggest a couple books
for you , both jewish authors....in fact any thing written by Ben
Friedman or Israel Shahak is more to the truth then anything Ive ever
seen...I have heard enough of whining to last several lifetimes and
one more movie about how bad the Germans are and I'll puke. Israel is
nothing but a racist state that practices apartheid and genocide upon
the Palestine people ,that, William is a fact. In a few short
words...get off the cross, smeone else needs the wood/



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Josh Wilner - Sunday, 01/10/99, 4:05:58pm (#125 of 1256) 

Fred, 

I do take extreme offense at the number of holocau$t museums in
America as it was NOT Americans who persecuted the jews...Trying to
instill some form of Guilt complex in the non-jewish population (now
at 97.5 %) is so ridiculous as to make me feel nothing but contempt
for this injustice. 

You don't understand the point of the museums do you. They are there
to serve as a reminder to the world about what happened. 

These museums include information about what happened to everybody,
not just Jews. The museum in Los Angeles is called the museum of
tolerance. a focal point is teaching people to be tolerant of all
people. 

But it appears that you would rather bury your head in the sand. You
weren't there, so you won't take responsibility. 

You sound like those people who tell Black Americans to stop talking
about slavery, because you weren't a part of it. 

Whether you like it or not you have a responsibility as a persont to
look out for your fellow man, deal with it.








Msg #  




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fredrick rynberger - Sunday, 01/10/99, 7:59:03pm (#127 of 1256) 

Joshy 

look son...the war has been over for a long long time and if the
healing process of all citizens in America is ever going to be
accomplished we need to stop proselytizing one group over another.The
American heritage is NOT a jewish one and if Americans need to pay
homage to any group, it must be the American Indians ...period. I have
seen how school districts are ordered to bus the kids to the Ghoulish
monuments of mythical atrocities and actual crimes against humanity. I
wonder if a Christian gentile group in America could obtain grants for
Museums of the Atrocities for exterminating 20 MILLION Christians
under Communist Russia..Stalin and his gang of thugs make what Hitler
did ,look like a walk in the park.I am sick and tired of this "stick
it in my face" attitude that jews have about their Problem, and I damn
well resent using my tax dollars to build these Ghoulish Monuments.
There is a country called israel and if they want to make the whole
damn country ONE big monument ,then so be it, but do it with their $$$
and not mine. For a small miniority to squeeze our testicles just to
make them look as the only persecuted people in the world, is in
itself a crime against humanity, for it is a LIE. All Americans should
be ONLY called Americans and not jewish nor black nor african nor
german nor any other phrase except AMERICANS...when that is fully
accepted there will be no reason to have animosity towards another
person based on color, race or religion. I for one dont care what a
person is but I will retain the right to fight to the death in order
to be Culturally Selective.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




fredrick rynberger - Sunday, 01/10/99, 9:30:46pm (#129 of 1256) 

I dont agree



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Monday, 01/11/99, 1:30:56am (#132 of 1256) 

From CNN Community Staff: 

The original message in this message slot has been deleted by staff
because it does not comply with the following guidelines for posting: 

Personal attacks upon another member of the discussion. 

We wish to remind you that we expect each and every member of the
discussion to remain within the board guidelines, which includes using
appropriate language and being courteous to the other people here on
the board. 

Thank you for your contribution to the community here and welcome your
assistance in maintaining a high-quality environment for discussion. 

-CNN Community Staff



------------------------------------------------------------------------




william greenfield - Monday, 01/11/99, 12:17:35pm (#136 of 1256) 

From CNN Community Staff: 

The original message in this message slot has been deleted by staff
because it does not comply with the following guidelines for posting: 

Personal attacks upon another member of the discussion. 

We wish to remind you that we expect each and every member of the
discussion to remain within the board guidelines, which includes using
appropriate language and being courteous to the other people here on
the board. 

Thank you for your contribution to the community here and welcome your
assistance in maintaining a high-quality environment for discussion. 

-CNN Community Staff



------------------------------------------------------------------------




fredrick rynberger - Monday, 01/11/99, 2:36:56pm (#137 of 1256) 

ok..understood,,,thank you CNN



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fredrick rynberger - Monday, 01/11/99, 3:08:51pm (#138 of 1256) 

alma and william 

You really have to get over the fact that everone who thinks as I do
can be painted with the brush that you have used. It seems as though
you have an identity crises and suffer from some form of insecurity
complex. You are entilted to your views and I of mine, that is all any
reasonable person should be permitted under any circumstances. I have
visited most of the "sites" in Europe where the war was fought and my
Fathers grave is right there in Normandy were he died fighting the
Germans. I dont think my opinions are as you have described them, but
you seem to find it easier to label everyone who does'nt blindly
follow the same pitter patter as what most dolts do. I have a great
deal of empathy towards anyone who is willing to accept their share of
the blame and be Fair to all concerned but I have no time for lies,
decit and treachery, from any quarter.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Seni Revlow - Monday, 01/11/99, 7:45:28pm (#139 of 1256) 

Greenfield said: 

Fredrick Rynberger, YES,the germans, the catholics, not just in WW2
but down through the ages are guilty they help killed the Jews in the
name of CHRIST , so everybody is guilty of the Holocaust. 

Sonny says: Can you post some documentation that proves that
"everybody is guilty of the Holocaust?" 

Please don't put a guilt trip on Catholics and Christians. The
following list shows the attitudes of the Church regarding the Jewish
folks of the period. 

SYLVESTER I. Condemned Jewish anti-Christian activity. 

GREGORY I ('The Great'). Protested wholesale circumcision of Christian
slaves by Jewish traders, who monopolized the slave trade in Europe
and the Middle East and were widely suspected of supplying white girls
to Oriental and African buyers. 

GREGORY VIII. Forbade Jews to have power over Christians, in a letter
to Alfonso VI of Castile. 

GREGORY IX. Condemned the TALMUD as containing "every kind of vileness
and blasphemy against Christian doctrine." 

BENEDICT XIII. His Bull on the Jewish issue (1450) declared: "The
heresies, vanities and errors of the TALMUD prevent their knowing the
truth." 

JULIUS III. Contra Hebreos retinentes libros (1554) ordered the TALMUD
burned "everywhere" and established a strict censorship over Jewish
genocidal writings - an order that has never been rescinded and which
presumably is still binding upon Catholics. 

PAUL IV. Cum nimis absurdim (1555) promulgated immediately after his
coronation, was a powerful condemnation of Jewish usury. It embodies a
model legal code to curb Jewish power that was recommended to all
communities. 

PIUS IV. Condemned Jewish genocidal writings. 

PIUS V. Hebraeorum gens (1569) expelled all Jews from the Papal
States. 

GREGORY XIII. Declared that Jews 

"continue to plot horrible crimes" against Christians "with daily
increasing audacity." 

CLEMENT VIII. Condemned Jewish genocidal writings.








Msg #  




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fredrick rynberger - Monday, 01/11/99, 11:43:07pm (#140 of 1256) 

thank you one and all for some very interesting post....goodnite!



------------------------------------------------------------------------




william greenfield - Tuesday, 01/12/99, 1:33:17am (#141 of 1256) 

Mr.Rynberger, I'm not out to make personal attacts against you, only
against what you believe in. yes you have as much right to your
opinion as i do, thats what makes this country great. When i makes a
opinion i make sure i have the facts not propaganda. All the Jewish
people wants is to practice our religion and to be left alone and stop
being the scapegoat for the world.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




satn webb - Tuesday, 01/12/99, 3:09:19am (#142 of 1256) 

All you people need to get a grip on reality! Man has been killing his
fellow man for the last 10,000 years for one reason or anonther. But
mostly over God.Don't you think we might start to question who this
God is that we keep killing ourselves over. Think about it!



------------------------------------------------------------------------




fredrick rynberger - Tuesday, 01/12/99, 9:03:23am (#143 of 1256) 

W Greenfield 

It is exactly that arrogance and condescending attitude that
infuriates me. To state that ONLY YOU have the facts and implying that
im off the wall in my messages is absolutly ludicrous. I attended no
school, no organization or other conservative or fanatic bunch of
loosers to formulate my opinions. It has taken damn near seven decades
to come to the conclusions that I have and they are all based on
personal experience.Only you are to blame for being the "scapegoat"
and if you want some facts by an authoritive source, you might try
reading anything by Israel Shahak or Benjiman Friedman...both are
articulate writters of FACTS!



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Josh Wilner - Tuesday, 01/12/99, 12:23:43pm (#145 of 1256) 

fredrick rynberger 1/12/99 9:03am 

I attended no school, no organization or other conservative or fanatic
bunch of loosers to formulate my opinions. 

Thanks for reaffirming that you are not speaking based on fact, but on
opinion. Certainly you are entitled to yours, even if it is
provincial, sheltered and reminiscient of the pre-civil rights era. 

Modern man understands that it is ok to question, provided that we
have a logical basis for doing so. 

We understand that one persons reality is not representative for an
entire group. We also understand that we are responsible for trying to
ensure a better future. 

And to that end we must engage in activities that promote that. In
plain English that means that we have to discuss both the good and the
bad.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Larry A. - Tuesday, 01/12/99, 8:42:26pm (#148 of 1256) 

Holocaust account: Is it fact or fiction? 

Anyone who assumes, the events involving the Holocaust, horrible acts
perpetrated against the Jewish population by Nazi Germany is fictional
is completely avoiding the many unbiased reports concerning the facts.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Wednesday, 01/13/99, 6:57:17am (#149 of 1256) 

Larry....thanks for the last post. Though you are so right, people
with agendas never let facts get in the way. These people have agendas
and have always been the purveyers of such propoganda, the live and
breath it and no amount of unbiased history writings are going to get
in their way. I even posted a book in which German SS officers
revealed the atrocities and they still ignored it. Ciest la vie.
Really doesn't matter what they think.



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LEO RÄD - Thursday, 01/14/99, 2:00:48pm (#151 of 1256) 

Larry A. 1/12/99 8:42pm 

I dont think anyone claims the holocaust to be fiction. What I do
understand is that there has been some exaggerations about the
holocaust. Some unfair representations. 

For example, Hitler is demonized way more than Stalin (or other mass
murderers), whose crimes, by freezing and starvation, are double the
former in number and monstrosity. One doesn't trip on a museum for the
genocide of 8 million Ukranians around every corner.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Drew Hanson - Thursday, 01/14/99, 9:20:22pm (#152 of 1256) 

Leo Rad: (let me guess..not Leo Mothias, eh?) :o) "One doesn't trip on
a museum for the genocide of 8 million Ukranians around every corner."


And yet it would be fantastic to have such museums and I would be in
support of it. I would think it would educate people about those
atrocities as well. I still have seen no revisionist substiantive
proof of any exagerrations....if anything the nazi atrocities were
UNDERreported.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




william greenfield - Friday, 01/15/99, 1:57:04am (#153 of 1256) 

Yes, I'm in support of a museum for the ukranians, they could put up
ALL the photos of their victims that they murdered and how they helped
the SS during the Holocaust. I agree Stalin was no better than Hilter
and he should have been brough to trial too, but the ukranians got
what they deserved, they were just as bad or worse than the SS.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Larry A. - Friday, 01/15/99, 7:24:09pm (#154 of 1256) 

Drew 

Leo 

Thanks for the reply! 

I did not intend to have any larger discussion on the topic of this
forum. I believe it was Alma who posted a link to this board, which I
followed. I really use to enjoy her often cleaver perception on these
issues. 

Any how as for Stalin's atrocities against many civilian populations
include my voice in support of your opinions. A few international
museums could heighten our understanding of the historical
significance of his actions. 

Remember though I cannot accept any such consideration for the butcher
in Baghdad. 

Thanks again! 

Larry








Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Raymond John - Monday, 01/18/99, 11:40:45am (#155 of 1256) 

To: Fredrick Rynberger: For stating your opinion (which is why these
forums are here to begin with) you seem to have generated a goodly
amount of animosity. I also have spent time in Germany and was
fortunate ? enough to have visited one of the death camps shortly
after the liberation. An unsettling experience, but that was forty
five years ago and I wonder how many more of the bedraggled Jews
movies can be made before everyone gets to feeling as you do. 

As to the person who claims that the jews "bought" the land from the
Palistinians - I don't usually quibble over "facts" but in this
instance you might go back over recent history.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




LEO RÄD - Friday, 01/22/99, 3:15:45pm (#156 of 1256) 

Raymond John 1/18/99 11:40am 

yeah. 

They "bought" the land and then suddenly put a flag up...and kicked
the arabs out.



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Loretta Mallea - Friday, 01/22/99, 6:08:40pm (#157 of 1256) 

This post by William Greenfield is unbelievable! 

william greenfield - Friday, 01/15/99, 1:57:04am (#153 of 156) 

Yes, I'm in support of a museum for the ukranians, they could put up
ALL the photos of their victims that they murdered and how they helped
the SS during the Holocaust. I agree Stalin was no better than Hilter
and he should have been brough to trial too, but the ukranians got
what they deserved, they were just as bad or worse than the SS. 

• ********************************** 

The underlying assumption made by Mr. Greenfield is that the 8 million
Ukrainians deserved to be killed while 6 million Jews did not. Somehow
I doubt that all Ukrainians were responsible for the actions of a few.
I suppose the Iraqi people should be killed then for the actions of
their military. I agree with Mr. Rad in that the Ukranians, the
Cambodians, and compatriots of many others simply got on with their
lives and looked to the future. You don't see the Ukrainians suing the
Russians, or the Cambodians their own. Why is that? Because while we
still remember the past, we look to the future. Many people have
suffered the fate of war. War is terrible. There are many spoils of
war that no longer are in the hands of the rightful owners. How can
the entire past be reconciled in the courts of today? The answer is
that it cannot. Native American claims and Mexican claims on US
Territory. Polish claims agains Germany, Basque against Spain, Greek
on Turk, Chinese against Japan. Remember the past and stop living it.
More importantly, learn from it, not profit from it. The Ukrainian
people did not deserve their Holocaust any more than the Jewish
Holocaust, the Cambodian Holocaust, the Gypsy Holocaust, (add your
oppressed group here)....etc. 

There is no THE HOLOCAUST. There were many holocausts. All were
atrocious. All were evil. All were holocausts. There will be more. Ask
Bosnia. Ask Rwanda.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Loretta Mallea - Friday, 01/22/99, 6:17:42pm (#158 of 1256) 

The holocaust of WWII is a very serious issue. It is a historical fact
and should not be embellished. A fictional story of a holocaust (since
it was, A HOLOCAUST, not THE HOLOCAUST) poses no harm. A story which
exposes the evils of oppression cannot be of harm unless it is
purported to be true. Who wants to be associated with the deaths of
millions? I can tell you that if I was alleged in a fictional book to
have achieved this level of evil, then I would be upset. It's best to
leave this to the non-fiction writers.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




LEO RÄD - Saturday, 01/23/99, 3:54:33pm (#159 of 1256) 

Here is an article for those who are not familiar with "the holocaust
of 8 million Ukranians by Stalin"



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Mike Kinsley - Monday, 01/25/99, 4:58:28pm (#160 of 1256) 

Of course all killing is bad. The atrocity against the Jews is a
particularly horrid one in that these were trusting unarmed citizens
and the killing was not to subvert any actions they had instigated
against the state, but strictly because of their religion. 

The revisionists will always be around and always have been That is
un- fortunate; not because they particularly sway anyone, but because
they never learn themselves. Hence if they ever end up on the victim
side of a holocaust, they will not have learned from history and be
the victim of their own ignorance. 

As for the Palestinian/land post I did not see it. Jews did not buy
land from Pales- tineans since the Palestinians for the most part did
not own it. Lebanon and Jordan did and they INDEED sold the land to
Jews who created a country. Whether you agree with the country or not,
there is no justification for a holocaust. (And please don't tell me
of Jewish atrocities to Palestinians since I've been there many times
and Palestinians are treated much worse by their own Arab brothers. )



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Loretta Mallea - Tuesday, 01/26/99, 3:47:01pm (#163 of 1256) 

This conference is not about the merits of the Israeli rubber bullet,
or the varying degrees of oppression practiced by one group against
another. The question is "Should the book be published as fact or
fiction? What harm is done if the book is fiction but published as
nonfiction?" 

Answer the questions and take your ethnic pride elsewhere. The lesson
is that killing is bad. You can rank the reasons if you like (i.e.
killing for reason A is better than reason B) but I will argue that
your reason is not better or worse than mine. If I am killed because I
am a Jew or because I am carrying a purse with $50 in it, I don't
care, I am still dead, and the killer is still evil. 

I would suggest that a story of a Jewish holocaust in World War II be
told as non-fiction. Why? Because there is no room for embellishment
for such a heinous event. The story cannot be made any worse by
embellishment.







Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Seni Revlow - Tuesday, 01/26/99, 6:51:55pm (#164 of 1256) 

Kinsley said: The Israeli government spent millions to produce the
rubber bullet which greatly reduces deaths to a fraction of what they
were. 

Can you cite a source for the above? I'll wait. The fact is, sir, a
rubber bullet hitting a vital area will kill just like any other
bullet. 

Kinsley then makes another silly statement. "Throw a rock at a U.S.
cop and you are killed instantly with a 38 magnum steel tipped bullet.


Firstly, policemen in the U.S. don't kill children for throwing rocks.
They never have and never will. Please show me one instance where this
has happened. Here too, I'll wait. Secondly, there is no such thing as
a "38 magnum." Thirdly, nobody uses "steel tipped" bullets. Please
cite me one manufacturer of "38 magnum steel tipped" bullets. I'll
wait on this one too. 

Kinsley then shoots himself in the other foot. " Throw one at an Arab
cop and you are beheaded." 

Can you back up your assertion that the penalty for throwing a rock is
loss of head? Give me one citation please, or recant all of your
"untruths." 

Now, please tell me all about your humane rubber bullets theory. 

Re: the subject at hand, the book. Many holocaust books are rife with
factual errors - this book is no different.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Seni Revlow - Tuesday, 01/26/99, 7:21:03pm (#165 of 1256) 

Loretta said: "What harm is done if the book is fiction but published
as nonfiction?" 

Well, because that would be untruthful and blur the true facts
surrounding the holocaust. 

Then Loretta asks a question and gives a strange answer. "I would
suggest that a story of a Jewish holocaust in World War II be told as
non-fiction. Why? Because there is no room for embellishment for such
a heinous event. 

I'm sorry, I don't understand what you are saying. You seem to be at
opposition with yourself. 

Then she says: "The story cannot be made any worse by embellishment." 

It CAN be made worse by embellishment, much worse. An example would be
some of the following holocaust untruths. The shrunken heads, the
Jewish soap, the various silly death methods, the impossible cremation
rates, overstated deaths, etc. 

All of this bad information makes history something it's not. 

The book is fiction, pure and simple.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Alma bat Ami - Wednesday, 01/27/99, 12:18:26pm (#167 of 1256) 

The soap existed. So did the shrunken heads (photographs are
available). So please: don't start to deny a truth by trying to sneak
a couple of untruths. 

As to how many dead, the number is not far from 6 millions. Any
problems with that?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Loretta Mallea - Wednesday, 01/27/99, 1:07:12pm (#168 of 1256) 

To Semi Revlow: People started talking about rubber bullets, so I
thought I would reiterate the original question of the conference. I
was not implying no harm could be done. I did say that it should be
told as nonfiction, because it is too sensitive a topic to make
details up. I then went on to say, and perhaps I should clarify, that
no good can come from writing a fictional account of this event. 

As far as the issue of overstated deaths, I am of the opinion that 1
is as bad as 2 is as bad as 10 is as bad as 1000 is as bad as 1
million is as bad as 6 million. At what number does this become a
horror? I look at it from an individual perspective. I am not going to
split hairs over the number of deaths. Because then number is
accounted at 6 million makes it no worse than the numbers of Rwandans
or Bosnians or Cambodians or let the list go on. The magnitude of this
event makes it no worse than the other genocides. 

As far as making the story worse by embellishment, I was writing from
the victim's viewpoint. It doesn't get any worse than dead to me. I
don't see beyond the deaths. People died. I am sure I can get you to
agree on that. 

The only problem I have with this topic is that people think it is the
only time there was a holocaust. It is not true. It is not THE
Holocaust, it is one holocaust and it was not the last. While we sit
here in the present worrying about who is owed what for war crimes, we
sit passively and watch things like Bosnia and Rwanda.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Seni Revlow - Wednesday, 01/27/99, 6:18:48pm (#169 of 1256) 

Alma bat Ami says that "The soap existed." This is a commonly held
belief, but, is untrue. The Nazis never made soap from Jews or anyone
else. The soap story is a myth, this has been known for many years.
Let me bring you up-to-date. 

Yad Vashem admitted that Professor Yehuda Bauer was right when he
called it what it was: a hoax! This was reported in the Northern
California Jewish Bulletin, April 27, 1990. 

Sol Littman of the Simon Wiesenthal Center also admitted: "there's no
historical evidence of soap manufactured from the bodies of Holocaust
victims. The major historians say there was no such thing." 

Deborah Lipstadt, author and history professor said: "The fact is that
the Nazis never used the bodies of Jews, or for that matter anyone
else, for the production of soap." 

Please adjust your memory banks to read - NoSoap. 

Also, your statement about shrunken heads is false. There were no
shrunken heads. This is another hoax. The pictures you speak of are
not Jews, the heads belonged to unfortunate South Americans. 

You also said:"As to how many dead, the number is not far from 6
millions. Any problems with that?" 

Yes, I have a problem with that. Do you realize that the four million
dead at Auschwitz is also a hoax? This has been common knowledge for
almost a decade. The actual number of Jews perrishing at Auschwitz is
between 630,000 and 970,000 - give or take a few. Most of the deaths
were caused by typhus and starvation. 

When you subtract the three million that did not die at Auschwitz,
from the six million - you reduce the total deaths by half. 

Please try to stay current.







Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Tom Moran - Thursday, 01/28/99, 11:07:09am (#170 of 1256) 

The Holocaust and eyewitness testimony 

Holocaust Evidence 



Most persons might think that the Holocaust story is founded on solid,
rock hard evidence. Something like we might expect would be
established at a murder trial in a court of law. An investigation of
the scene of the crime, a forensic study of any physically related
factor, a murder weapon, a body. For the Holocaust story, one that
claims 12,000,000 murder victims, all that is borderline none
existent. 

Ninety nine percent (99%) of Holocaust evidence is i based on
ex-prisoner "eyewitness" accounts and SS i confessions. 



Forensic investigations of allegedly known scenes of the crime, bodies
or remains of bodies and scientific feasibility studies not necessary
to document an extermination of 12,000,000 persons. 


All it takes to make a Holocaust 'fact' for something so epic as say
an alleged vast spinning industry at an "extermination" camp in Poland
that used hair from gassed victims and was even bigger than all the
production in Germany would be one sentence in one lone confession.
Not one single product from hair, no orders for any machinery, no
shipping records of any kind, no collaborating testimony, nothing
except the one sentence by one lone source is automatically put forth
as a Holocaust fact. Another example of a Holocaust fact would be a
one paragraph statement by one lone former prisoner saying 18,000 Jews
were shot all in one day and buried in the ground. Nothing else is
needed. Even though the prisoner declared exactly where all the bodies
were buried then dug up, cremated and reburied no forensic excavation
was ever performed, the witness was never asked to show the scene of
the crime, only words on a piece of paper with a name attached makes
for a Holocaust fact that 18,000 people were shot. 


As for the essence of Holocaust evidence consider these extracted
introductions from the - 'Central Commission For Investigation Of
German b Crimes In Poland' 1946 





------------------------------------------------------------------------




Josh Wilner - Thursday, 01/28/99, 1:47:13pm (#185 of 1256) 

Tom Moran, 

Your long drawn out post is so typcial of so many revisionist text.
You cite chapter and verse of so called historical text that provides
a solid foundation for your argument. 

The truth of the matter is that you never give any real attribution to
the source of your material. Oh sure, you come up with a scholarly
sounding name that serves as the title for your "history book." 

But this book never has a real persons name attached to it. And if it
did we would find out that the author was a member of one of the many
hate groups that have hidden in the nooks and crannies of the
internet.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Josh Wilner - Thursday, 01/28/99, 1:54:48pm (#186 of 1256) 

Continued, 

The beauty of the internet is that it provides you and your fellow
revisionists a forum within which you can attempt to peddle your lies.


Its very cleverly done as it is understood that many people do not
question what they read. If they see it in print then it must be true.


But we have not been fooled. Your tripe is like so much before, pure
fiction. It doesn't matter what your motives in posting this is, it
only matters that people are there to refute your lies. 

This is why Spielberg and so many other people have taken the time to
document the survivor's tales. This is why the very films that the
Nazi's made of their heinous crimes are kept, so that there will
always be proof of what happened. 

You should be ashamed of yourself for your pathetic attempt to make
light of a terrible crime. 

Would you deny that tragedies of a similar nature are taking place in
Bosnia and Rwanda. Would you also claim that the Turks never murdered
Armenians. 

You would make a perfect foil for President Clinton and his I didn't
have sex routine.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Robert Caleb Tomanek - Thursday, 01/28/99, 3:54:14pm (#187 of 1256) 

To Josh Wilner, 

HEAR, HEAR!








Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Seni Revlow - Thursday, 01/28/99, 7:22:22pm (#190 of 1256) 

Josh, hope you don't mind if I jump in. You seem to have a problem
with Mr. Morans short report. You attempted to discredit him but
failed to refute or answer his points. 

JW: The truth of the matter is that you never give any real
attribution to the source of your material. 

SR: Please go back and read his citations. 

JW: Oh sure, you come up with a scholarly sounding name that serves as
the title for your "history book." But this book never has a real
persons name attached to it. And if it did we would find out that the
author was a member of one of the many hate groups that have hidden in
the nooks and crannies of the internet. 

SR: Are you implying that Moran made this up? What do you mean by
"hate groups?" His report seems to be based in science/math. 

JW: The beauty of the internet is that it provides you and your fellow
revisionists a forum within which you can attempt to peddle your lies.


SR: If he is a liar, then you should be able to refute each one of his
points. Thereby: proving him to be a liar. Back to you. 

JW: Its very cleverly done as it is understood that many people do not
question what they read. If they see it in print then it must be true.


SR: An article in the Newark Star-Ledger of 23 Oct. 1996 (p 15) treats
Web sites that some consider objectionable. Among these are sites of
Holocaust revisionists. Steven Some, Chairman of the New Jersey
Commission on Holocaust Education, said "These Holocaust deniers are
very slick people. They justify everything they say with facts and
figures." 

Yes, Josh, people do believe facts and figures. They know the truth
when they see it. 

JW: But we have not been fooled. Your tripe is like so much before,
pure fiction. It doesn't matter what your motives in posting this is,
it only matters that people are there to refute your lies. 

SR: Go ahead, Josh - start refuting. Here's one to begin with. Are you
aware that the gas chamber



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Robert Reis - Thursday, 01/28/99, 10:01:10pm (#193 of 1256) 

I believe this discussion was originally about a work of fiction that
won awards while masquerading as an autobiography. 

If the book is a fiction then the poeple who gave the awards are
gullible fools. 

Many people have taken the position that a work of fiction
masquerading as an autobiography is laudable as long as it reiterates
every conceivable accusation - true or false - ever leveled at the
Nazis. These people lack ethical standards. 

Other people have taken this discussion as an opportunity to express
their skepticism of the traditionally accepted picture of the events
that took place from the advent of the Hitler government until its
collapse in the area of ethnic policy. 

Not unexpectedly this provokes the ire of those who still believe the
traditionally accepted picture. 

Having read the rules of evidence used by the Nuremberg Tribunal so
kindly posted on the Web by Yale University, I am aware that the
victors followed no rules of evidence. There is no reason for a
reasonable person to accept the transcripts of those trial as more or
less valid that the Moscow trials of Mr. Stalin. 

It would be nice if the professional historians of the world had
provided us with reliable, objective histories that proved Mr. Hitler
had invaded Poland in order to find Jews to kill, but they haven't. In
fact the academic community is divided into two schools: those who
believe that Hitler decided to exterminate all of the Jews that he
could but didn't leave any smoking gun in the archives that connect
him to this decision, and those who believe that killing of Jews
happened as the result of administrative accidents in a climate of
official antisemitism. 

All of us know a lot of Jews suffered and a lot of Jews died. None of
us know how many because there has never been an independent census. 

All of us have heard that seven million people, or six million people,
or four million people were killed at



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Robert Reis - Thursday, 01/28/99, 10:07:40pm (#194 of 1256) 

Auschwitz. The monument at Auschwitz now claims a million and half
victims. 

This suggests that several millions of Jews thought to have been
murdered at Auschwitz were not. But the six million claim appears
ritualistically in our daily press. 

This suggest that the six million figure is a slogan, not a fact.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Mike Kinsley - Thursday, 01/28/99, 10:57:02pm (#195 of 1256) 

Am just curious why numbers are so important to you Mr. Reis and if
they are soooooooooooooooooooo important to you, why are you not JUST
as concerned over the estimation of 43,000 Americans killed in Viet
Nam. Some are now saying those numbers could be way off due to the
fact that many were taken prisoner and are still unaccounted for. Why
is it that you are just focused on this? 

By the way, it was New York Times reporters, a prevalalently Jewish
paper that panned this book as fiction. How do you feel about Jews
making certain such works that don't merit passing the grade of
nonfiction make it into that arena?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Robert Reis - Thursday, 01/28/99, 11:12:04pm (#196 of 1256) 

Mr.Kinsley, I hope I have had the manners to try to spell your name
correctly. Perhaps some graduate degrees in history have led me to
prefer accuracy to propaganda. Somewhere I remember something about
certain commandments referring to truthfulness. Ulterior motives like
that might be at work.





------------------------------------------------------------------------




Tom Moran - Friday, 01/29/99, 1:16:35am (#197 of 1257) 

Part I 

"Tom Moran, 

Your long drawn out post is so typcial of so many revisionist text.
You cite chapter and verse of so called historical text that provides
a solid foundation for your argument." 

Josh, thanks for your comments (The ones that are staggered. I won't
bother to resituate them. Next time try posting the stuff without
constant indent.) 

"The truth of the matter is that you never give any real attribution
to the source of your material." 

Anything I have offered comes from what is deduced from 'facts' in
Holocaust books. Much of it can be found right on the Internet. Try
out . 

"But this book never has a real persons name attached to it. And if it
did we would find out that the author was a member of one of the many
hate groups that have hidden in the nooks and crannies of the
internet." 

Try presenting and offering any proof of that. 

"The beauty of the internet is that it provides you and your fellow
revisionists a forum within which you can attempt to peddle your
lies." 

The way to expose "lies" is to show it directly. Announcements are
only that. 

"Its very cleverly done as it is understood that many people do not
question what they read. If they see it in print then it must be
true." 

That is exactly what revisionists and others think and it is true. Of
course we don't see anything in detail about the Holocaust story in
the newspapers and on TV do we? Do you suggest people should believe
the Holocaust story from just what they see on those formats? Or do
you have a double standard?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Josh Wilner - Friday, 01/29/99, 1:25:48am (#198 of 1257) 

Continued from my previous post: 

you continue your blind march with the following statement: 

SR: An article in the Newark Star-Ledger of 23 Oct. 1996 (p 15) treats
Web sites that some consider objectionable. Among these are sites of
Holocaust revisionists. Steven Some, Chairman of the New Jersey
Commission on Holocaust Education, said "These Holocaust deniers are
very slick people.They justify everything they say with facts and
figures." 

Yes, Josh, people do believe facts and figures. They know the truth
when they see it. 

Facts and figures are easily manipulated. If I told you that in a
recent poll 90 percent of those polled believed that the moon was made
out of cheese, what would it prove? 

Well, lets begin by asking how many people were polled. What if there
were only 10 people. 

To achieve that 90 percent it would only take 9 people to say that
they believed the moon was made out of cheese. 

To paraphrase you, smart people do not blindly accept numbers as fact.


Sir, the numbers of people killed has been documented and verified
time after time. 

Your questioning this suggests that either you have a low regard for
life or a personal problem with Jewish people. 

What is it?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Tom Moran - Friday, 01/29/99, 1:27:29am (#199 of 1257) 

Part II to Josh's announcements and Moran's reply. 

"But we have not been fooled. Your tripe is like so much before, pure
fiction. It doesn't matter what your motives in posting this is, it
only matters that people are there to refute your lies." 

Josh, I take note of your use of the "we" word. Here you say "pure
fiction" and "people are there to refute your lies". That is not what
you are doing here is it? 

"This is why Spielberg and so many other people have taken the time to
document the survivor's tales. This is why the very films that the
Nazi's made of their heinous crimes are kept, so that there will
always be proof of what happened." 

'Schindler's List' is fiction. In fact the camp commandant, Goeth,
shown to be sniping prisoners from his balcony was prosecuted by the
SS courts, of which sniping was not one of the charges. Would you know
if Spielberg lets on about that? 

And, isn't this 'discussion' taking place in relation to a
"survivor's" tale under suspicion? A whole book? 

"You should be ashamed of yourself for your pathetic attempt to make
light of a terrible crime." 

The Holocaust story itself is a crime. A 'hate crime'. The primary
components, gas chambers and mass cremation and incredible cruelty -
lies.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Josh Wilner - Friday, 01/29/99, 1:29:34am (#200 of 1257) 

Mr Revlow, you posted a response to my post. I apologize for the lack
of order here, my posts have inadvertently been changed, this should
have the first. Anyway, here it goes: 

You seem to have a problem with Mr.Morans short report. You attempted
to discredit him but failed to refute or answer his points. 

Ahh, but I did. Read my post again. 

JW: Oh sure, you come up with a scholarly sounding name that serves as
the title for your "history book." But this book never has a real
persons name attached to it. And if it did we would find out that the
author was a member of one of the many hate groups that have hidden in
the nooks and crannies of the internet. 

SR: Are you implying that Moran made this up? What do you mean by
"hate groups?" His report seems to be based in science/math. 

Read this slowly. Many people attempt to persuade others by publishing
(or posting on the net) pieces that have "academic sounding" names.
You can call yourself the "Harvard Scholarly review," but that does
not mean that you are actually associated with Harvard. 

I then specified that these reports do not have an author's name
attached to it.Its an anonymous essay, how can we check the
credentials of the writer, if there are no names. 

Read your question again: 

SR: His report seems to be based in science/math. 

The key word there is "seems" not it is based, but it appears to be.
David Copperfield, the magician appears to levitate in his show, but
he never really leaves the ground. To be continued








Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Josh Wilner - Friday, 01/29/99, 1:37:00am (#201 of 1257) 

Tom Moran 1/29/99 1:16am 

Anything I have offered comes from what is deduced from 'facts' in
Holocaust books. Much of it can be found right on the Internet. Try
out . 

I challenged you to provide the name of the author. Here from my
original post: 

"But this book never has a real persons name attached to it. And if it
did we would find out that the author was a member of one of the many
hate groups that have hidden in the nooks and crannies of the
internet." 

Your response: 

Try presenting and offering any proof of that. 

Instead of offering a name, you again try to dodge the question. You
posted the report, if there is a legitimate author, then it should be
easy for you provide the name. 

Your non-answer says quite a bit. 

Of course we don't see anything in detail about the Holocaust story in
the newspapers and on TV do we? Do you suggest people should believe
the Holocaust story from just what they see on those formats? Or do
you have a double standard? 

No double standard, you can check with the Wiesenthal center, or any
number of other museums. There are vast numbers of scholars that have
written on the subject and are not afraid to have their names attached
to their work.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Tom Moran - Friday, 01/29/99, 1:54:37am (#202 of 1257) 

Mr.Kinsley, thanks for the peek at your subliminal. I refer to your
alteration of my name. Don't get me wrong and think I mind. I like it.
It says something about you. 

Now for you and Josh. Holocaust facts have it cremation over grills.
The layout is described as three railtracks laid out parallel for 96
feet long and 2.5 feet off the ground. "Brushwood and branches" are
discribed as the fuel and would be placed on the ground under the
rails. Three thousand bodies at one time are said to have been
cremated. Allowing for space between the "brushwood - branches" (say
25%) and a space for flames to develope below the grate (say 6 inches)
and figuring the rails close enough so the bodies wouldn't fall
through during the process - ( say 2 feet between each rail, 4 feet
altogether) how much wood would there be available for each body? 

Here - 

96 x 2 x 4 = volume where the wood would be, thus the amount of wood 

Divided by 3000 = amount per body 

The measurements and discription given by Stangl, alleged one time
commandant of Sobibor and Treblinka as reported in Yitzak Arad's book
"The Reinhard Camps" or something like that. Can be found on .



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Tom Moran - Friday, 01/29/99, 2:00:44am (#203 of 1257) 

Josh, you have replied - 

"Instead of offering a name, you again try to dodge the question. You
posted the report, if there is a legitimate author, then it should be
easy for you provide the name." 

His name is Tom Moran.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Tom Moran - Friday, 01/29/99, 2:16:10am (#204 of 1257) 

Mr.Revlow had correctly noted: You seem to have a problem with
Mr.Morans short report. You attempted to discredit him but failed to
refute or answer his points. 

Mr.Wilner claims: Ahh, but I did. Read my post again. 

Then Mr.Wilner, you shouldn't have any problem i posting just one (1)
example of any refuting. 

Don't ever forget we are talking about serious i charges against a
whole culture. So if anyone is i dishonest with their remarks then
that would be i very naughty - correct?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Tom Moran - Friday, 01/29/99, 2:34:36am (#205 of 1257) 

Mr.Wilner and Mr.Kinsley, here is a replay of a passage from the
original posts. 

Selecting a theoretical ridiculously low amount of wood to cremate one
body, say the equivalent of a solid piece 2 x 2 x 2 feet, times the
80% claimed to have been cremated with the fuel, we end up with 36
million cubic feet of wood necessary. 

This would be equal to a pile of tree trunks piled up 20 feet high and
20 feet across by 5 miles long. Or a volume of wood exceeding the
volume of the Empire State Building. 

Is there a problem with that?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Josh Wilner - Friday, 01/29/99, 11:47:40am (#206 of 1257) 

Mr. Moran, 

What are your credentials? What makes you an authority on this matter?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Josh Wilner - Friday, 01/29/99, 1:31:39pm (#207 of 1257) 

Robert Reis 1/28/99 10:07pm 

Auschwitz. The monument at Auschwitz now claims a million and half
victims. 

This suggests that several millions of Jews thought to have been
murdered at Auschwitz were not. 

You must have misread or misheard this somewhere. 6 million were
murdered, but not all at Aushwitz. 

There were many other camps, Dachau, Treblinka and Bergen-Belsen were
names of some of the other camps. 

If you compile the totals from all of these places you will find that
they equal 6 million Jews.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Morris Katz - Friday, 01/29/99, 2:32:05pm (#209 of 1257) 

Numbers be damned. Will the first person who can justify the human
rights violations of the Hitler Nazi regime, please step up and take
your best shot.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Jim LaVeck - Friday, 01/29/99, 4:16:15pm (#220 of 1257) 

Tom Moran 1/28/99 11:07am 



All it takes to make a Holocaust 'fact' for something so epic as say
an alleged vast spinning industry at an "extermination" camp in Poland
that used hair from gassed victims and was even bigger than all the
production in Germany would be one sentence in one lone confession. 



Wrong. All it take to make a Holocaust fact is the systematic
murder/genocide or ANY civilians as was perpetrated by the Third
Reich.








Msg #  




------------------------------------------------------------------------


Josh Wilner - Friday, 01/29/99, 4:34:24pm (#221 of 1257) 

Tom, 

You never answered my question regarding your credentials. 

What makes you an authority?



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Jim LaVeck - Friday, 01/29/99, 4:51:59pm (#222 of 1257) 



Do you think the book should have been published as fact or fiction? 



I haven't read it, so I really couldn't comment accurately.
Additionally, *I* was not a Jewish boy in Europe in WWII. 



If the book is a fraud, what harm do you see coming from it? 



The same thing that's happening here and been happening: cries that
the Holocaust didn't happen. 



If untrue, can the story still have a meaningful effect on teaching
about the holocaust? 



Probably, providing it's historically accurate. 

Suffice it to say, I will believe survivors who were there (and my
mother who grew up in Germany during the War) than armchair historians
and revisionists.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Alma bat Ami - Friday, 01/29/99, 5:03:36pm (#224 of 1257) 

I will concur to that. 

Far from this being a discussion on a book, we have here a few people
saying that the Holocaust didn't occur, and CNn seems to think these
posts are relevant to the discussion!



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Robert Reis - Friday, 01/29/99, 5:08:32pm (#226 of 1257) 

Mr. Josh Wilner has suggested that the total death at the various
concentration camps and from other methods of supression will amount
to six million dead Jews. 

I am suggesting that the six million figure has been broadcast
unremittingly since the end of World War II. 

In the 1960s 4,000,000 people mostly Jews were claimed as victims at
Auschwitz. Now between 700,000 and 1,500,000 victims mostly Jews are
claimed for Auschwitz, Arithmetic suggests that some millions of Jews
thought to have been killed at Auschwitz survived the war. Therefore
the six million figure ought to be reduced substantially, but it has
not. 

This is why I suggest the 6,000,000 figure is a slogan or dogma and
not a historical fact. 

Of course, if someone can prove that the millions thought to have been
killed at Auschwitz were really killed somewhere else, I will bow to
the evidence. 

What is worse methematically is that the incomplete official Auschwitz
SS death registers have survived the war. They suggest that the total
death toll for the Auschwitz camp was well under 200,000 people. If
this is correct the six million figure is even more in error. 

Murdering women and children is always wrong. 

However, it is not suggested very often that the brave American lads
who incinerated cities in Europe and Asia ought to return their
medals; and an accurate total of the victims of Nazi ethnic policy may
well turn out to be smaller than the total of the victims of Allied
terror raids in World War II. 

The six million number makes wonderful propaganda, but its
substantiation is very weak. 

I could bore everyone with a list of academic citations that show its
weaknesses. 

I suggest everybody reread Eli Weisel's autobiographical account
"Night". Count how many members of his family arrived at Auschwitz and
compare it to his dedication. See who he forgot. And please explain
the medical facilities therein described that the Nazis were wasting
on people th



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Robert Reis - Friday, 01/29/99, 5:09:56pm (#227 of 1257) 

they were supposed to be trying to exterminate.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Tom Moran - Friday, 01/29/99, 5:14:16pm (#228 of 1257) 

Alma bat Ami says: 

I will concur to that. 

Far from this being a discussion on a book, we have here a few people
saying that the Holocaust didn't occur, and CNn seems to think these
posts are relevant to the discussion! 

[[ This is always the resort. Call for censorship. The topic is the
validity of a book said to have been written by a "survivor" and
"eyewitness". The Holocaust story is based 99.99% on "eyewitness"
tales. Many of these tales have been shown to be untrue, either by
their contradicions to the laws of physics, reconsidered court records
or even by denouncement by traditional Holocaust 'historians'. The
topic of the book under suspicion makes it valid to discuss anything
about the Holocaust story because it is based on a "eyewitness" and
"survivor". 

Keep in mind we are dealing with serious allegations. Who has the
right to demand no one discuss the problems about the accuracy of the
story? It has already undergone epic revision.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Josh Wilner - Friday, 01/29/99, 5:37:38pm (#230 of 1257) 

Robert Reis 1/29/99 5:22pm 

If you are going to argue about numbers. If you are going to try and
belittle the deaths of so many people, then you have no place talking
to anyone about manners. 

You and your companion Moran have not done anything other than make
suggestions that have all the trappings of hate speech. 

Notice I haven't called for you to stop. I prefer that your kind run
around in the light of day where we can see you. 

Neither one of you has offered any proof that your outlandish claims
are based on anything more than an active imagination. 

Feel free to keep speaking, it helps to document why it is so
important for us to keep the memory from dying. 

There is no doubt that given the opportunity you would attempt to
convince us that people went to the camps for relaxation purposes, or
that no one was ever intentionally killed there.



------------------------------------------------------------------------




Tom Moran - Friday, 01/29/99, 5:38:26pm (#231 of 1257) 

Josh Wilner - Friday, 01/29/99, 4:34:24pm (#221 of 228) 

"Tom, 

You never answered my question regarding your credentials. 

What makes you an authority?" 

Knowledge, Mr.Wilner. 

Are you looking for an "authority" like in 'Argumentum ad
Vericundium'? Availing your argument on the grounds it is held by a
person of degree or institution of note. 

Pressac is one of the most cited authorities for the Holocaust.
Pressac is a pharmacist. 

Did Michelangelo have a degree in art? Tommy Edison only had a fourth
grade education. 

Knowledge Mr.Wilner, knowledge. Looking beyond what we see on TV and
in the newspapers.


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