From: email@example.com (David S. Maddison) Newsgroups: soc.culture.jewish,alt.history,soc.culture.ukrainian,uk.media.radio.bbc-r4,uk.politics.misc Subject: Re: Jewish role in Ukrainian holocaust: non-PC history lesson Date: Wed, 27 Oct 1999 13:17:36 GMT Organization: DSM Reply-To: firstname.lastname@example.org Message-ID: <email@example.com> References: <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <38132E08.6107C518@gs.net> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/16.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: dialin-a1-39.melbourne.internex.net.au X-Trace: 28 Oct 1999 00:20:04 +1000, dialin-a1-39.melbourne.internex.net.au Lines: 113 Path: hub.org!hub.org!hermes.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!intgwpad.nntp.telstra.net!nsw.nnrp.telstra.net!ozemail.com.au!news.mel.aone.net.au!newsfeed.aone.net.au!news.mira.net.au!news.mel.ausbone.net!news.internex.net.au!dialin-a1-39.melbourne.internex.net.au Xref: hub.org soc.culture.jewish:418355 alt.history:12129 soc.culture.ukrainian:59801 uk.media.radio.bbc-r4:27286 uk.politics.misc:349381 In article <firstname.lastname@example.org> Tue, 26 Oct 1999 21:57:45 -0700 binyomin
wrote: [..] >But the argument ignores our history: the turn of the century pogroms >in Kishinev and Odessa, the mass murder of Jews in Ukraine during the >Civil War . . . With the particular agonies reserved for Jews in >Russia, how could they forget that pain long enugh to want to >participate in its infliction? (This is all still on p. 147) [..] As an aside, and to show how much Jews were loved by Ukrainians, it is interesting to note that 1200 (twelve hundred) laws were passed that were specific to Jews in the period 1649-1881 and that more than half of these were passed by Nicholas I (1825-55). There were state-sponsored pogroms in 1881-82, 1903, 1905, the disgraceful charges of "ritual murder" in the Beilis affair of 1913, expulsions from Kiev 1886 and Moscow 1891. In October 1905 alone, 690 seperate pogroms were carried out! The Jewish response to this persecution was to emigrate to the USA, increased support for Zionism and (for some) support for the revolutionary parties, however only about 0.5% of Jews joined the Bolsheviek party. Although Jews had temporarily a noticeable representation in the Bolsheveik Party (in 1922, 13.6% of the CP(B)U), this figure is not out of proportion to their representation in the Ukrainian population - in 1897 Jews constituted 8.3% of the total population of the Ukraine, but a whopping 27.4% of its urban population in 1897 or 22.8% in 1926. It is also rather more likely that urban dwellers are more likely to become involved in political movements than rural dwellers, so, if anything, the number of Bolsheveik Jews is lower than might be expected from their numbers among urban dwellers. Also, it is undeniable that Jews suffered more under the Bolsheveiks than anyone else. The Bolsheveiks banned both religious activity and private trade and commerce which most Jews were involved in (whilst most non-Jewish Ukrainians were involved in agricultural activity). Also, in elections during the revolution to Jewish communal councils, 66% of votes went to non-Socialist parties, and only 34% went to socialist parties. Nevertheless, there were pogroms by Whites, peasants otamans, some units of the UNR Army, anarchists and the Red Army who regarded the Jews as being Bolsheveik. (Reference for facts: "Jews", Encyclopedia of the Ukraine, University of Toronto Press, ISBN 0-8020-3444-6, 1988) Also, some other factoids to throw in: Lenin was not a Jew, he came from Russian nobility. Marx was baptised as a child, had no Jewish upbringing and was an atheist. Frederick Engles was an "Aryan". J.H. Seraphim "an Aryan" wrote in the supplement to "Handworterbuch Staatswissenschaften": "The origins of Bolshevism lie deep down in the Russian nature and in the politico-economic structure of the Empire of the Tzars. To conceive it as merely a variant of proletarian Socialism of the Marxist school is to disregard its distinctively national character". Hugo Valentin in "Anti-Semitism" wrote: "The tutors of the radical and revolutionary Russians in atheism, materialism, nihilism, terrorism, socialism and anarchism were Russians, such as Alexander Herson, Bielinksky, Pisarov, Tchernyshevsky and Bakunin - Englishmen and Germans." "The International Communist", official Bolsheveik newspaper wrote in April 1920: "The Jewish Socialist groups have pursued a theoretical struggle against Bolshevism. All the Jeiwh socialist parties were convinced that Bolshevism would not be long in breaking down. The Jewish workers resisted the Bolsheviks with armed force, particularly in the Ukraine, a region which was conquered with so much difficulty by Bolshevism." The Jews suffered more than any other group after the Bolshevik victory because 40% of Jews (in the USSR) lived by private trade which was prohibited by the Bolsheviks. It is true that there were initially some Jews in the USSR Communist Party (in 1918 there were 2.6% Jews compared with 3.7% Estonians, 6.3% Poles, 10.8% Latvians and 75% Russians) but the Jews were eventually purged by Stalin and Jews became one of the most discriminated-agains minorities in the USSR (in 1897 7.4% of those in the Russian Empire were Jewish according to Encyclopedia of the Ukraine - once again, the proportion of Jews involved is less than might be expected from the population). Those Jews that were involved were exclusively atheistic, secular Jews. Communism is incompatible with the principles and practice of the Jewish religion. Judaism expects people to work for a living and give charity to those that can't, and within a capitalist model. Don't forget also the treatment of the Jews under the Czars. The Jews were restricted to a certain geographic area known as the "Pale of Settlement" where they had very serious impositions placed on them and suffered regular pogroms. It is not surprising that some Jews would have revolted against the cruel and inhumane treatment of the Czars and hence SOME became involved in the revolutionary movement to overthrow the Czars. David Maddison
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